0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

the Savage Lovecast at savage.love. Taylor

0:23

Swift won a bunch of Grammy Awards

0:25

on Sunday night, including one that arguably

0:28

should have gone to someone else. Cough,

0:30

cough, Beyonce. The Superbowl is

0:32

coming up. Taylor Swift's football hero boyfriend,

0:34

Travis Kelsey, is going to

0:37

be playing in this Superbowl. Travis

0:39

is a tight end for the Kansas City

0:41

Chiefs or the tight end for the Chiefs.

0:43

I don't know if a football team has

0:45

more than one tight end, but I do

0:47

know that he's playing for the Kansas City

0:49

Chiefs, but I don't know that by heart.

0:51

I had to look that up again

0:53

for the third or fourth time.

0:56

That's how gay I am. I

0:59

am so gay that my gay brain

1:01

refuses to store that information. I

1:03

look up what team Travis plays for every time I

1:05

have to talk about him here on the show. I

1:08

say the name of that team out loud

1:10

and then my cerebral cortex, which is where

1:12

long term memories are stored, is like, no,

1:14

thank you. Delete, delete, delete. There is no

1:16

room in here for that. No

1:19

room in here for trivia

1:21

about football teams. Not with

1:23

all this very important information we need to keep

1:25

stored about original Broadway cast recordings of obscure

1:27

musicals from the 1940s. Anyway,

1:30

I'm a very gay person. I know a lot

1:32

of very gay people. Some of the very gay

1:34

people I know are very into Taylor Swift. Some

1:36

are very into Beyonce. There have

1:38

been arguments because gay people

1:41

don't agree about everything. Water-based

1:43

lube, silicone-based lube, puppies, gay

1:45

cruises, even gay marriage. There

1:47

is a lot of

1:49

disagreement, but there is

1:51

one thing that no one in the

1:53

gay community seems to be arguing about,

1:56

and that is Travis Kelsey's sexuality. Travis

1:58

Kelsey. is straight. Collectively,

2:01

the gaze came to that conclusion

2:04

when he first pinged on our

2:06

radar, which was not when he

2:08

began dating Taylor Swift. It

2:10

was when Kelsey hosted Saturday Night

2:12

Live in April of 2023, which

2:15

was after he won his second

2:17

Super Bowl six months before his

2:20

relationship with Taylor Swift went public.

2:22

In that episode of SNL, Kelsey appears

2:25

in a skit with the great and

2:27

hilarious Bowen Yang that's centered, as the

2:29

queer studies kids like to say, Kelsey's,

2:33

bedrock, essential, obvious,

2:35

and blatant straightness.

2:39

As much as these girls mean to me,

2:41

sometimes I need a break. That's when I

2:43

discovered straight male friend.

2:47

Yo, watch me headshot this bitch. Oh,

2:53

amazing. Straight male friend is a

2:55

low effort, rose stakes relationship that

2:57

requires no emotional commitment, no financial

3:00

investment, and other than the occasional

3:02

video game related outbursts. Man,

3:05

this game's stupid. No drama. Straight

3:08

male friend isn't perfect and may ask blunt

3:10

questions about your sex life. So like, do

3:13

gay guys like when a guy has a

3:15

big one or is it kind of like

3:17

a bad thing? Depends

3:20

on the guy, but he's only asking

3:22

because he's honestly curious. There's something

3:24

sweet about that. So if

3:26

you're a gay man who needs a break,

3:28

come discover the casual, low effort friendship gay

3:30

women have known about for years. Straight

3:33

male friend. Yo, sorry about being a

3:35

pussy, but my dad dying earlier, man.

3:37

That won't happen again. Straight

3:40

male friend, available

3:43

everywhere. This

3:45

video, which is hysterical, went viral and

3:47

gays who don't pay attention to football.

3:49

That would be a small subset of

3:51

the gay community sometimes referred to as

3:54

all of us. Every single one of

3:56

us. Suddenly we all knew who Kelsey

3:58

was because he was. was in

4:00

this kid with Bowen Yang and

4:02

that fake ad that he was

4:04

in for straight male friend drew

4:07

attention to his straightness in such

4:09

a way that if there was

4:11

any doubt among gay people about

4:13

Kelsey's straightness we would have

4:15

aired it then but

4:17

it didn't happen well a lot of gay

4:19

men out there think Kelsey's hot no

4:22

one out there no gay person out

4:24

there thinks he's secretly gay which

4:27

is saying something because gay men are

4:29

not immune to wishful thinking where hot

4:31

straight male celebrities are concerned the

4:33

slightest hint that someone gay men

4:36

think is hot might be gay

4:39

we are on that like those tidy

4:41

whiteys were on Tom Cruise and risky

4:43

business and like those cum

4:45

gutters were on Shawn Mendes at the Met

4:47

Gala gay men are like Kremlin

4:49

ologists back in the 1970s always trying to

4:52

figure out what was going on in

4:54

the Soviet Union based on who was standing where on

4:56

top of Lenin's tomb during the May Day

4:59

parade any hint any

5:01

clue any evidence

5:03

that someone out there that you

5:05

might want to fuck might actually be fuckable

5:10

we're all over it which

5:12

brings me to this tweet a tweet

5:14

that went viral last week why

5:17

would a rich famous guy

5:19

referring to Travis Kelsey marry a 34 year

5:22

old woman referring to the ancient Taylor

5:25

Swift if you started immediately you might be

5:27

able to have two kids and she's publicly

5:29

had sex with a ton of guys it

5:31

just seems weird the tweet

5:33

goes on why would a successful man

5:35

like Travis Kelsey want a middle-aged woman

5:37

who's always on tour is it

5:41

could it be because

5:43

he's gay some

5:47

right-wing comedian who I'm not gonna name

5:49

I'm not gonna platform a racist right-wing

5:51

comedian banned from a lot of social

5:53

media platforms tweeted that out it went

5:55

everywhere and the reaction to it let's

5:58

just call it the not heard around the

6:00

world. Promise Kelsey is

6:03

not gay. Listen, right-wing comedian,

6:05

I promise you, my gaydar

6:07

is better than yours. And

6:09

gay, wishful thinking is a

6:12

powerful life force. And

6:14

Kelsey doesn't ping on our

6:16

gaydar, and nobody who

6:18

suffers from gay, wishful thinking is

6:20

thinking about Kelsey. He

6:22

doesn't ping so hard that there was

6:24

no wishful thinking in views speculation after

6:27

Kelsey hosted SNL, and we all found

6:29

out at once that he exists. What

6:32

we have here is a case of the dog that

6:34

didn't bark in the night. Gay men

6:37

saw Travis in that video with Bowen Yang, and

6:39

no one said, secretly gay, could be gay, might

6:41

be gay, we hope he's gay. Gay

6:43

men saw him with Taylor Swift, and we didn't say anything.

6:46

The right-wing obsession with Taylor Swift and

6:48

Travis Kelsey and all the conspiracy theories

6:51

that the right is attempting to attach

6:53

to this cute, fun

6:55

couple, this David French wrote in

6:57

the New York Times this weekend,

6:59

it's all very deeply weird. And

7:03

the speculation about Swift and Kelsey is really gonna

7:05

get dialed up to 11 this week

7:07

in the run up to the Super Bowl. Is

7:10

Swift a Pentagon asset, which an

7:12

actual host of an actual news

7:14

program on Fox suggested

7:16

this week? Is their relationship

7:19

a massive psy-op concocted by the

7:21

deep state? The plan being

7:23

all along for Swift to start dating Kelsey, and then

7:25

for Kelsey's team to win the Super Bowl, and

7:28

for Swift to endorse Joe Biden live on

7:30

national television right after Kelsey's team wins

7:33

the Super Bowl, which they're definitely gonna

7:35

win because the fix is in, because

7:37

the entire NFL is in

7:39

on this conspiracy. I

7:42

can't believe that when people look at what

7:44

the Republican Party is today, we still face

7:47

competitive elections where

7:49

Republicans might win

7:52

anything, much less the

7:54

White House. In our guts,

7:57

we know they're nuts. You

8:00

gotta listen to the gaze on this. You gotta take our

8:02

word on this. I know how

8:04

you right-wingers love your conspiracy theories

8:06

and I know conspiracy theories are

8:08

fun and believing bullshit together is

8:10

one way for an in-group

8:13

to feel connected, but you're

8:15

gonna have to let this one go. It's

8:17

less plausible than Jewish space lasers

8:19

or furniture companies shipping

8:21

traffic children to pedophiles inside dressers

8:23

that they can order online. All

8:26

of your dumb conspiracy theories make you look

8:29

dumb. They make you look ridiculous, but

8:32

this one, look, if

8:34

you won't take he's fucking Taylor Swift for

8:36

an answer, if that's not good enough for

8:38

you, take it from me and the rest

8:40

of the gays. That football

8:43

player who plays for that

8:45

team I mentioned earlier whose name I

8:47

have already forgotten, he is not one

8:50

of us. He is not gay,

8:52

not even a little bit. And

8:54

calling him gay doesn't make him

8:56

any less straight or rich or

8:58

famous or fuckable. And calling him

9:00

gay, not that there's anything wrong

9:03

with being gay, but you

9:05

calling him gay out of jealousy

9:07

and spite, not only does it

9:09

make anybody think he's gay, it also

9:11

doesn't make you right-wing comedians any

9:14

less pathetic or any less unfuckable

9:17

than you already are. All

9:19

right, this week on the micro

9:21

and Magnum Ezra Klein show,

9:24

Ezra Klein from the New York

9:27

Times is here. We

9:29

take a sex question together, Ezra Klein, I

9:32

don't know what he's doing here. My

9:34

first question for him is, why are you demeaning

9:36

yourself by coming on my sex podcast? But

9:39

he does and Ezra has, as Ezra always

9:41

does, a lot of terribly insightful

9:44

and intelligent things to say about

9:47

sex and relationships and families

9:49

and the nuclear family stuff he doesn't usually

9:51

get into. On his

9:53

podcast or in his columns for the New

9:55

York Times, but he gets into it today

9:57

with me here on The Love Island. Cast

10:00

little bit of that is on

10:02

the micro. All of my interview

10:04

with As Ropes is on. The

10:06

Magnum Sub is what. If you

10:08

can one hear everything as we

10:10

had to say, you can have

10:12

to subscribe to the sub is

10:14

webcast. Become a Magnum Sub. Right

10:16

now it's at Savage.love And speaking

10:18

of perks for Magnum Subs next

10:20

week Valentine's Day, it's Roses are

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10:34

Love cast. Also, Sex in Politics

10:36

invites to Savage. Love Live and

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Become a Magnum Sub today at

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Savage. Love or. This.

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damn twenty seven year old game

11:39

and looking at the piano or

11:41

about by our to pick your

11:43

brain about something that I've experienced

11:45

with a few path partners. I.

11:47

Just got your relationship and and going

11:49

back for months mr the first relationship

11:51

that have been about three years. so

11:53

it's a little different because they if

11:56

variable in October. And I'm going.

11:58

I'm experiencing in this relationship and. Offered

12:00

grade The past relationships with bad.

12:03

Is. Going. To the gym.

12:05

Together we both seem to behave differently.

12:07

As I said, I look in Indiana,

12:09

live in Michigan as well. They in

12:11

Michigan and I've never had the opportunity

12:14

to go to a gym that's queer,

12:16

spend track, or has good representation of

12:18

like a man things like that. I

12:20

know, I know there are gems like

12:22

that out there. There's not a whole

12:24

lot of them in Indiana. Certainly not

12:26

Indiana where I'm. So.

12:28

I'm always going to jam that

12:30

are presumably straight dominated safer than

12:32

I'm sure that plays a role

12:35

and our behavior, but I was

12:37

just wondering. If you hadn't

12:39

yet by some sort of how to break

12:41

the ice at the gym, like how to

12:44

break through that barrier with a partner. Because

12:46

in my experience when I go to the

12:48

gym with my current partner, They're

12:50

just seems to be just like a veil

12:53

of masculinity. That kind of. Drops.

12:55

Itself between us and man we find it

12:57

hard to connect with each other and talk

12:59

additional As gym we have to work out

13:01

separately which is which I'm fine with is

13:03

it would be distracting otherwise did my part

13:05

but ah but I just yeah just wanted

13:07

to know if you had any tips or

13:09

tricks on how to have a conversation about

13:11

like how behavior changes of jam even of

13:13

which is openly acknowledge him at ideally I'd

13:15

like to be able to work through it

13:18

were behaving the same way about and the

13:20

job and out of the gym. So.

13:23

I go to a gym that's

13:25

enough gain a bridge between. There's

13:27

a really long time and about.

13:29

this is long time ago. Stack

13:32

you to do with decade and

13:34

a half ago there was some

13:36

new guy i'm assuming Athens mostly

13:38

gauge him and there were two

13:41

guys. Insights. In this

13:43

is before the be certain percentage to the

13:45

gym and one kiss, the other on the

13:47

cheeks and this guy who was on one

13:49

of the. Bench. Press

13:51

machines grumble that them very audibly

13:54

about like not a to not

13:56

to to. The. One season

13:58

as the tomb. And this

14:00

other guy who I knew and I

14:02

knew was straight, this big black

14:04

guy who went to the gym who was straight, looked

14:06

at the guy who just barked at the gay

14:09

guys for being obviously gay guys at the gym,

14:11

looked at him and tapped him on the shoulder

14:13

and said, you're at the wrong gym. It

14:17

was such a delicious, wonderful

14:19

moment. You rarely, you know, you're

14:21

about allies all the time, you

14:23

rarely see that kind of, I

14:26

don't know, allyship in public. I wish I'd gotten

14:28

it on film. I love that guy. Thanked him

14:31

later, circled back to him after the guy left

14:33

the gym, was like, you're awesome. That was amazing.

14:36

We were friends, we'd met up to him a bunch of times,

14:38

super nice straight guy. And he was just

14:40

like, yeah, yeah, he's at the wrong gym. Why

14:43

do you behave with your boyfriend the way you do

14:45

when you're at the gym? Because you

14:47

guys are at the wrong gym. You're at

14:49

a gym in Indy fucking Anna or you're

14:52

at a gym in rural Michigan

14:54

somewhere. What you're engaged in is

14:56

called code switching. When you're

14:58

relaxed and comfortable and feel safe, you're

15:01

a little gay or you're not policing

15:04

your behavior. When you're at this gym

15:06

full of mostly straight guys in Indiana

15:08

fucking somewhere, why do

15:10

you butch it up? Because

15:14

some part of your reptile brain is

15:16

aware that if you're

15:18

as gay as you usually are

15:21

or unselfconscious about your

15:23

behavior and mannerisms and relationship as you

15:25

usually are in other places, other circumstances,

15:28

that you could get attacked,

15:31

that somebody could say

15:33

something mean to you. Some

15:36

people regard a mean thing being

15:38

said to them as a kind of

15:40

violence. And there's also the risk of

15:42

actual violence, actual gay bashing. So

15:44

you and your boyfriend butchered

15:47

up at the gym. I am not

15:49

blaming or shaming you for that. You

15:51

should see me. We have to drive me

15:53

and Terry across Washington state

15:56

sometimes To go see his mother in Spokane at

15:58

the other end of Washington. Washington State. There is

16:01

no such thing as a blue state. The

16:03

call Washington a blue State are no blue

16:05

states. There are redstate. some of them have

16:07

big blue cities and them that flip them

16:09

into the blue column. But. It.

16:11

Is an archipelago a blue cities in a

16:14

big red sea added the United States. You

16:16

should see me when I have to. Walk.

16:20

Through a truck stop and

16:22

rural Washington state. Under

16:25

the Trump flags for sale.

16:27

To. Get To the bathroom. I am. So.

16:30

But. I. Never

16:33

looked straighter than I do

16:35

at that moment. Because.

16:37

I don't some party me to doesn't want

16:40

to.x I'm not blaming you for buttoned up

16:42

at the gym. I put it up at

16:44

the truck stop and Ellensburg every single time.

16:46

Where do you do? How do you get

16:49

to be more comfortable? Well go to the

16:51

gym. Go a lot I guarantee you. Whatever.

16:54

Gym You're in. Wherever you're at the

16:56

gym you are not the only game

16:58

in a match. Him. From. The

17:00

findings by game and you can't get us into

17:03

the gym in high school and you can't get

17:05

us out of the gym after. You aren't the

17:07

only. Guys. Their everybody

17:09

else there who's gay. At.

17:11

Your mostly overwhelmingly straight gym is engaged

17:14

in the same kind of code switching

17:16

successfully the you two are so you

17:18

can't spot them as you make friends

17:20

at the gym. Guys who are gay

17:23

or gonna let you know. Perhaps.

17:25

Some of them disturbed, sustained I contacted

17:28

her, let you know that they're gay

17:30

and you will more comfortable and more

17:32

safe in time. Safer. Certainly that I

17:34

will ever feel at that truck stop

17:37

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starts now. Obama

19:18

i across Canada had a good advice

19:20

my brother in law about my sister.

19:23

This. Is an alcoholic shifted Or my brother

19:25

in law? Recent. All got

19:27

into an argument in which my

19:29

sister through a and still window

19:32

that my standing and senate rules

19:34

of twelve. And. I

19:36

got him up and down fool around with

19:39

the idea to work and separations. After this

19:41

the third day my brother in law of

19:43

the that they were going to try and

19:45

work things out. I love my sister but

19:48

she isn't that terrible terrible place and that's

19:50

affecting other people. She the diagnosed psychosis and

19:52

an alcoholic lady, others a. How.

19:55

Do I talked to my brother in law?

19:57

who is about twenty years old than

20:00

me and my sister is 15 years older than me about

20:03

maybe separating not just for his

20:06

own sake but at

20:08

this point now for the kids safety.

20:10

Escalating situations have happened before this but

20:13

this is scaring me because it is

20:15

getting physical. Here's what

20:17

you do. You go to your brother-in-law and say,

20:19

look, if you need to divorce my

20:21

sister, do

20:24

it and you have our support

20:26

and you will not lose our support. We

20:28

will not side with her

20:30

and we will still be there for you

20:33

in this process and we will still consider you

20:36

a member of the family.

20:38

You can divorce my terrible

20:40

sister without feeling like

20:42

you've wronged or betrayed us

20:45

because we can see what's going on

20:47

here and you

20:49

have our love and support. Whatever you choose to do, if you

20:51

choose to work on this right now, work on

20:55

it. But if you need to leave, please

20:58

don't feel like letting

21:00

the family down or losing

21:04

us as family is a

21:07

price you're going to have to pay to exit

21:09

this marriage or do what you need to do

21:11

for yourself and for your daughter, my niece. That

21:15

can really tip the scales. I've seen it in

21:17

my own family, tip the scales. When there is

21:20

someone who's married into the family, who's

21:22

thinking about getting a divorce, hearing

21:25

from members of the family

21:27

that we understood

21:29

the reasons why they needed to get

21:32

that divorce and they

21:34

would still be welcome at

21:36

family events and they would

21:38

not lose that web of connection.

21:40

When you marry someone, you marry into a

21:42

family and you create

21:45

a kind of wider

21:48

society for yourself. One

21:50

of the things that sometimes prompts people to stay

21:52

in shitty relationships that they need to get out

21:54

of is fear,

21:58

fear Of losing those social. The

22:00

emotional and familial connections and it

22:02

could make all the difference in

22:04

the world. For. Your brother in

22:06

law to hear from you and hear from you know.

22:09

That. If he's doing this going

22:11

through these motions. Because. He

22:13

doesn't want to be alone. Next.

22:15

Christmas. He. Will

22:17

not be alone next Christmas. He will still be

22:20

welcome at family events, even if he has to

22:22

divorce. Your. City outta

22:24

control, narcissistic. Sister.

22:27

And if she has a problem with that, than she's not

22:29

going to be. Welcome. At

22:31

Christmas. That. You will

22:33

choose. The Functioning. Healthy,

22:36

Responsible. Sober. Relatives.

22:40

Even if it's not the blood relative. Over

22:43

the drunken, out of control, raging,

22:45

narcissistic relative. So.

22:47

Call him. Tell him that

22:49

and then you gotta respect whatever it is

22:52

the he decides to do. If

22:54

he wants to work on it, if she's

22:56

gonna get so bird. if they can go

22:58

to couples counseling and. Try.

23:01

To save this relationship. Tell.

23:03

Him. You will support him through

23:05

that process to. But. Let

23:07

him know you're not blindly loyal. To.

23:10

Your sister just because she's your

23:12

blood relative. That. He is

23:14

your brother. In. Law.

23:17

And. You are loyal to him

23:19

to. And. You will be there for

23:21

him. To and you will be

23:23

there for him. After. This

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And. Thirty. Year old

24:50

straight dude man himself exam. I'm

24:53

sitting here with not quite my

24:56

girlfriend, but a woman who was.

24:58

Really fallen far. As

25:01

and see each other for the past year. And.

25:04

Everything about the celestial, the sex,

25:06

to the negation does waivers be

25:08

resolved. Also, system the best of

25:10

my life has been incredible. Doesn't

25:13

The issue is that she wants

25:15

kids and I know I don't

25:17

I've got a suspect Mean, we

25:19

knew this from the start of

25:21

our relationship. So

25:24

were. Breaking. Up

25:26

we set ourselves a day. A

25:28

while back says when this. Thing.

25:31

Was gonna come to an end and that date is approaching

25:33

less than a month know? How so? I

25:35

guess my question for you is. How

25:38

can we enjoy these last few weeks together?

25:41

I've had the bird home life with Islam

25:43

and I wanna continue Haven't good times by

25:45

this? Really painful knowing that. Are

25:48

gonna be eggs the other's lives pretty

25:51

soon. And then when that day does,

25:53

com. I guess my second

25:55

question is how can we heal

25:57

from this? He really want to

25:59

be friends. Later on were

26:01

planning on taking some time apart not

26:03

talking for A and been circling back.

26:05

But and a you had any advice

26:07

on how to best how the situation

26:10

I would be greatly appreciated. Joining.

26:12

Me to help answer this question.

26:14

Because why not Ezra Klein? He is

26:17

a journalist, a political analyst, a

26:19

New York Times columnist, and host of

26:21

the Ezra Klein Show Podcast Ezra.

26:23

Thank you so much for demeaning yourself

26:25

by coming on my So I

26:27

am. Thrilled! To be

26:29

here. Demeaned? Yeah Ezra. This is a

26:32

sex advice podcast. Like the Port Authority

26:34

bus Terminal, it's beneath. You. I feel

26:36

like there's a dynamic care of people getting

26:38

sex advice from their their grandpa or their

26:40

lay math teacher. Something I I appreciate you

26:42

buy to me on I don't think this

26:44

is really when a what's the here for

26:47

three a citizen but I enjoyed talking to

26:49

so I am. I'm bud to be here.

26:51

We taught when I was on your so

26:53

a lot about the alley amri and open

26:55

relationships and right now suddenly haven't a moment

26:57

all anybody can talk about. Besides.

26:59

Israel and Gaza and Ukraine and Russia

27:02

in the cities in the climate and

27:04

housing. and Donald Trump, Nikki Haley and

27:06

Tim Scott Entirely credible fiance. polyamory is

27:09

the only thing anyone is talking about

27:11

at the moment. You moved to the

27:13

west coast for a few years where

27:15

you encountered poly straight people in their

27:18

natural habitat San Francisco. I'm curious the

27:20

Pali people that you encountered where they

27:22

annoying poly proselytizer is are normally adjacent

27:25

kind of socially monogamous. Poly.

27:27

People who took some time for you to realize that

27:29

you had met some poly straight couples. Oh.

27:32

I think it was of much more

27:35

mixed group than that. It wasn't a

27:37

lot of proselytizer. The mean my community

27:39

in I'm The Bear was much more

27:41

queer. And so when you say

27:44

that I meet a bunch of a police state

27:46

people that wasn't sort of how my friend group

27:48

or how the people I knew broke down. And.

27:51

The it's actually been something. it's been annoying me

27:53

a lot of the a little bit about the

27:55

than your coverage here. It does have this quality

27:57

of. Assists New York

27:59

Media. The Ghost as discovered. people are

28:01

polyamorous in Park Slope like a month

28:03

ago of gas and I feel like

28:06

it, it's robbed the of a lot

28:08

of the kind of cultural tributaries I

28:10

understood as being there. You know, because

28:12

I grew up in California and they'll

28:14

have to deceive on family. Came back

28:16

to that the Bay Area for for

28:18

for five years and they're It's much

28:21

more clear that you're dealing with the

28:23

sort of overlapping circles of and is

28:25

what we talk about when you're my

28:27

Sudan sort of queer relationship norms that

28:29

has been. Com more influential and more

28:31

often adopted by by straight or straight

28:33

this couple's mean a lot of the

28:35

non monogamous couples I knew had that

28:37

either both partners are one partner in

28:39

it was by or had other concepts for

28:42

a sense that were important for their

28:44

happiness to to to be doing. You

28:46

have the sort of communes and more

28:48

hippie, an alternative living of the seventies and

28:50

a you have the the sort of

28:52

we urge is at. It's funny for

28:54

me it's have anybody in this is weird

28:56

but you have that the sort of

28:58

Silicon Valley world which had adopted. Parts

29:00

Vet. And. So that the sort of

29:03

stereotypical version of it before the start

29:05

I was Park Slope was it. You

29:07

know, Taxi. Sweet people

29:09

who accept Trump's boat. but it is

29:11

clear when you're there that that it

29:13

was. These different cultures are all rubbing

29:15

up against each other literally and figuratively.

29:17

End of the in the Bay area

29:19

of the had created does cross pollination.

29:21

And. Then here I think all it's

29:23

been lost and I'm all the sudden.

29:25

It has a strange quality of. Why?

29:28

Are people brooklyn dating each other which just

29:30

rob said I think of a lot of

29:33

Richardson and what makes it interesting the me

29:35

which is affected the different norms from different

29:37

places are are are are getting adopt a

29:39

little bit more and one caught universally but

29:41

are breaking down the expectations for what is,

29:44

it isn't normal and and what is and

29:46

isn't possible in people's lives. Because.

29:48

Of that loss sort of perspective or any

29:50

sense of the history of these cultures and

29:52

cross ponce since you have. Bad.

29:55

Actors on the right to are pointing to

29:57

this moment polyamory as having the story Money

29:59

or the New York Times during magazine even

30:01

the New York Post's not as evidence that

30:04

a memoir came out a a pony Every

30:06

and whoever that wrote that member had a

30:08

really good. Pr. Person, but

30:10

a plot on the part of

30:13

the left to destroy the nuclear

30:15

family. When you and your spouse

30:17

lived in San Francisco, you as

30:20

a couple new Poly people knew

30:22

people who were practicing polyamory. Did.

30:25

You are nuclear family survive the onslaught or

30:28

was your nuclear family destroyed by this exposure

30:30

to other people practicing polyandry which is what

30:32

Matt Walsh is arguing is gonna happen. I

30:34

remember when was gay marriages can destroy my

30:36

nuclear family so father had this actually an

30:39

ice the end it is gets it's of

30:41

says i want to do and that in

30:43

the coming weeks. I. Think

30:45

this is exactly backwards. So. There

30:48

as you mentioned what? What was actually the

30:50

the set of colonel around with all of

30:52

these magazine pieces and newspaper stories up bill

30:54

was this memo which I'm not myself read

30:57

but which is from of a broken rider

30:59

about her open marriage. And.

31:02

The. Book I'm really interested in right now which is

31:04

coming out a couple weeks hello may have come up

31:06

at the time. The Sars is called other significant others

31:08

by Ran a Cohen. The. There's sort

31:10

of polyamory happening on the edge of

31:12

it, I would say. but it's that

31:14

people put friendship at the center, their

31:16

lives and much more. build these very

31:19

non traditional my whole family's raid out.

31:21

What happens when you treat your best

31:23

friend like family? What? Happens when

31:25

the you. Begin. Raising a child

31:27

with people who are not your romantic partners,

31:29

but as people who love your child and

31:31

you, you're good at cooperating with. And.

31:34

And to me, polyamory and questions about

31:36

alternate family structures and are questions putting

31:38

friendship at the the scent of your

31:40

life. And and these are all things

31:42

that have been thought about deeply in

31:44

Quick Communities and other alternative communities for

31:46

a very long time. I think a

31:48

lot of catching up here being done.

31:51

But it's. All dealing with the fact

31:53

that that nuclear families already breaking down. That

31:57

first. Nuclear families not been the norm.

32:00

since the 50s, 60s, 70s, and it

32:02

was only a norm for a pretty punctuated

32:04

period of time. So now you

32:06

have a lot of people who are growing up in

32:09

single-parent families. You have a lot

32:11

of families that are blended between

32:13

divorces. But you also have

32:15

the loss, for many people,

32:18

the absence of the

32:20

way human beings traditionally did child

32:23

raising and community and all of it, which

32:25

is the extended family. I mean,

32:27

for most of human history, you did not have this thing

32:30

of two parents and

32:33

one to three kids. You definitely didn't

32:35

have it with two parents both

32:38

at full-time jobs and are somehow trying to raise

32:40

one to three kids. And

32:42

it's not working for people. You say nothing of

32:44

them when you only have one parent. And

32:47

this worry that something is going to break

32:50

the nuclear family, it's so nuts because a

32:52

nuclear family has already broken. It

32:54

is very, very, very difficult to raise

32:56

kids with this little support. It

32:59

is very, very lonely for people

33:01

when they begin putting everything on

33:03

their spouse to be their confidant,

33:06

their social community, their best friend,

33:08

their second best friend, their sexual

33:10

partner, their job coach, all of

33:12

it. And people are away

33:14

from their families and they're away from extended

33:16

care networks. And to

33:19

me, a lot of what is happening in

33:21

all these conversations and dynamics is like what

33:23

I think of as an effort

33:25

to figure out the post-extended family world, which

33:27

obviously many people still do live near their

33:30

extended families, but many people don't. And

33:32

so they do that. We're going to destroy something. People

33:35

are trying to figure out what to do in the wreckage.

33:37

It already happened. You know, it

33:40

feels like we're not answering the question, but

33:42

I feel like actually we kind of in

33:44

a sneaky way have already begun to answer

33:46

the caller's question. Before we get

33:49

really specific about it, I do want to say that

33:51

the sense of the nuclear family is breaking down, that

33:53

there's this loss of the traditional ways, or traditional

33:56

for the last 60, 70 years, that

33:58

nuclear family to parents alone with the... mom

34:00

at home not working, that going away

34:02

and it's already kind of gone

34:04

away and there's this sense of loss. Paradoxically,

34:08

what you describe like a network of lovers

34:10

and friends and this kind

34:13

of sprawling non-traditional family, some queer

34:15

people feel like gay marriage which

34:18

privileges the couple that

34:20

marries in a sense threatened what had been

34:23

a kind of traditional way that gay people

34:25

structured their family lives and

34:27

their relationships which was these kind of

34:29

informal networks of lovers and friends which

34:32

was great except

34:35

when you showed up at a hospital and the parents

34:38

that your boyfriend hadn't

34:40

spoken to for 20 years came

34:42

rolling in and threw you out. Gay

34:45

people with the absence of marriage didn't have that ability

34:47

to determine who our own immediate next to kin was

34:49

and marriage is how you do that. Unless

34:52

we create some alternate way to do that, marriage

34:54

has what the AIDS

34:56

crisis proved to gay people was absolutely

34:58

necessary and crucial that we secure that

35:00

right. Other significant

35:02

others have such a good discussion of

35:05

this, exactly the dynamics you're talking about and

35:07

trying to think about exactly this tension that

35:09

both marriage had all these legal

35:11

rights and social recognitions

35:14

that were and are

35:16

necessary and also that it

35:18

shouldered out, it muscled out this

35:20

possibility of seeing more expansive forms

35:22

of care also of legal recognition.

35:24

I mean to me the most

35:26

affecting chapter – you surely have

35:28

Raina Cohen on the show. To

35:31

me the most affecting chapter is actually about

35:33

co-parenting and cohabitation which is the set of

35:35

things that I personally think about most. One

35:38

of my deep beliefs about all of this is

35:40

that if you know

35:43

polyamorous people, you know that polyamory isn't

35:45

the answer. If you know monogamous

35:47

people, you know that monogamy isn't the answer. If

35:50

you know people parenting in a two-parent family, you

35:52

know that's not the answer and a single parent

35:54

family, you know that's not the answer. There's no

35:56

answer here. There's no one thing that is going

35:58

to work for everybody. People have different needs,

36:01

they need different amounts of alone time, they need

36:03

different amounts of support. People have children, their children

36:05

are different, some children have very

36:07

high needs. We are going

36:09

to need a lot of answers

36:12

for what is

36:14

the reality of this, which is a lot of

36:16

people in a lot of different situations, whether what

36:19

your income is really shifts what you can do.

36:21

I mean, a lot of richer families are basically

36:23

able to purchase, they buy, we

36:25

buy, some of the help that

36:27

you would have once gotten from an extended family,

36:30

in terms of nannies and house cleaners and so

36:32

on, but most people can't

36:34

afford a lot of that. And

36:36

so there's just the aspects of chosen

36:38

family, the aspects of fluidity here, right,

36:41

that they need to formalize some things, but

36:43

also things that are not highly formalized. That

36:46

to me is the space that we

36:48

need to enter into, a recognition. People

36:52

often talk about these other ways of structuring things as

36:54

experimental. The thing I always want to say is we

36:56

are living through the experiment now. This

36:58

way of raising children, this way of doing family,

37:00

this way of doing marriage with divorces, but also

37:02

the amount of weight we put on the partner

37:04

and marrying for love, this is all an experiment.

37:06

And a bunch of parts of the experiment are

37:08

not working well, and we need to have more

37:10

experiments, right? We do not know the answer. There

37:12

is going to be no one answer, and we're going

37:15

to need to accept fluidity without

37:17

becoming so unbelievably afraid

37:20

of trying to figure things out

37:22

when the things we're already trying are not working that

37:24

well. You call it fluidity, and what I see, that

37:27

network of friends and lovers, that

37:29

gave family networks in the absence of

37:32

the right to marry, those are really

37:35

kind of contingencies and workarounds and patches.

37:38

It seems to me that what we need are

37:41

marriage rights, but also bringing

37:43

those contingencies and workarounds and patches,

37:45

that wider community to

37:47

our marriages. And I feel really lucky

37:49

the way I grew up. I grew up in a

37:52

tiny apartment building with two apartments. My

37:54

mom, dad, four kids in one apartment. My

37:56

grandparents, aunts and uncles In the

37:58

other apartment. I Grew up... With that kind

38:01

of network and then raised a kid

38:03

without that that work. And. Raising

38:05

a kid, even just one kid

38:07

without that network was infinitely harder.

38:09

Which brings us to this question.

38:12

Let's let's address the question the color

38:14

actually as how do I enjoy our

38:16

last week's together when the relationship is

38:18

doomed? His apostles him to

38:20

stick the dismount and be friends. They're both

38:23

so sad. Back. In all

38:25

we have to the question Ezra: what's your

38:27

advice? How do they enjoy this time together.

38:30

All right we said we'd have some

38:32

Ezra on the micro and we have

38:34

which is did for all of as

38:36

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41:16

Dan I'm a bit of a moral quandary

41:19

involving the past affair. The

41:21

Cliff Notes version is that in 2021 I cheated on

41:23

my then wife with a female

41:25

friend which led dramatic

41:28

upheaval in my own life including

41:30

getting a divorce and distancing myself

41:32

from my former friend and

41:34

her partner who was also a friend. Since

41:38

then her partners continued to occasionally

41:40

reach out to me to reconnect.

41:43

The issue is she never told her

41:45

partner anything close to it's about our

41:47

affair only a minimized glossed

41:49

over version of it. Now

41:51

he a genuinely nice guy

41:53

and a new father wants

41:55

to reconnect and rebuild

41:58

his and my friendship. I

42:00

privately emailed her to check in and

42:02

told her that I no longer wanted

42:04

to maintain this lie

42:07

and that I was ready to have an honest

42:09

conversation with him about our past. She

42:12

firmly said no and downplayed the significance

42:14

of our past. I'm

42:16

torn. I consider myself a changed

42:18

man, one who's transparent and values

42:20

honesty in all his relationships. I

42:23

wouldn't want this to be Captain the Dark

42:25

if I were him either, and yet I

42:27

do miss him and wish I could rebuild

42:29

a friendship from a foundation of honesty and

42:31

respect. But I

42:33

also don't want to disrupt their family life,

42:36

especially with a newborn baby and

42:38

how adamant she was about keeping the truth

42:40

from him. Maybe she

42:42

thinks it'll affect him more than I do, or maybe she

42:44

just doesn't want the drama. Either way,

42:46

I can't help but wonder if he would still

42:48

want this friendship if more truth were revealed to

42:50

him. I miss him and want

42:53

to be friends, but I won't rebuild our friendship on

42:55

a foundation of dishonesty. Do I just

42:57

block his number with no explanation? I feel like that would

42:59

be hurtful to him too. Honest

43:02

to God, what I said out loud

43:04

after I listened to your call, when the

43:06

tape wasn't running, we shut

43:08

the fuck up and go the fuck away. They

43:11

have a new child. They have a

43:13

baby. It is awkward and it

43:16

puts you in a terribly awkward position that

43:18

they are trying to or he

43:22

is trying to reconnect with

43:24

you. You have this

43:26

very painful history with

43:28

his wife. You had an affair with his wife

43:30

that led to the collapse of

43:32

your marriage. You

43:35

don't sound like a bitter, vindictive

43:37

guy. There's nothing in

43:39

your call, in your question, the way you

43:41

framed it, your tone of voice, anything

43:44

that sounds bitter or

43:47

vindictive. But

43:49

your allegiance to

43:52

fixation on being

43:54

fully honest and

43:57

acquainting this guy is a condition

43:59

of reconnecting. having a friendship with

44:02

exactly how

44:04

terribly his wife, the woman

44:06

with whom he just had

44:08

a baby, betrayed him

44:12

with you. Whether

44:14

or not that's coming from a good

44:16

place, I don't see what good that

44:18

could possibly do at this moment for

44:20

them or for that

44:23

innocent kid. So

44:27

if the cost of having you

44:29

back in his life is you

44:32

being brutally honest with him about

44:35

something that he may have suspected,

44:38

something that he knows he

44:40

got the glossed-over version of and

44:43

has chosen not to dwell on

44:45

and has preferred to believe

44:48

maybe the glossy,

44:51

incomplete version that he

44:53

was told because the greater good was saving

44:55

his marriage and maybe

44:57

that's an illusion. But

45:00

maybe he chose that illusion and

45:02

he would like to be friends with you but he

45:04

would also, particularly at this moment with a new infant,

45:06

a new child at home, he

45:08

would rather not be disillusioned and

45:11

maybe now is not the time for that

45:13

disillusionment. And if you can't be in his

45:15

life without being punishingly

45:18

and perhaps honest with him in

45:20

a way that seems like it

45:23

could be from some certain angle

45:25

viewed as a kind of retaliatory

45:27

move, this affair,

45:29

you didn't escape unscathed, your

45:32

affair partner did, are there lingering

45:34

resentments there? Maybe,

45:37

if so, understandable.

45:39

But I would encourage

45:41

you to do the... I

45:43

don't want to call it the right thing

45:45

because we're always supposed to say honesty is

45:47

the right policy but to

45:50

focus on the greater good which

45:52

is go make some other

45:54

friends. If being

45:56

your friend means this

45:59

marriage, very marriage is

46:02

going to have to go through some

46:04

things, have its turn in the

46:06

barrel, that it may not survive.

46:09

Because essentially what you're saying is that

46:11

your friendship is going

46:13

to come at a cost. A

46:16

lot of that cost may ultimately be

46:18

paid by their kid. Not

46:20

your affair partner who escaped unscathed,

46:23

not your old friend, her

46:26

husband that you'd like to reconnect with. Love that

46:28

kid. I don't think your friendship

46:30

right now, I don't think it's worth it.

46:33

All right, before we get to this week's listener

46:35

response calls, I want to share a couple of

46:37

listener comments posted on last week's

46:39

show at savage.love. Says, Jen, as a

46:41

regular user of Field, I can confirm

46:44

that there are a lot of pics

46:46

of women and men and others without faces.

46:48

My advice to the caller, put on your

46:50

big girl panties, ask for a face pick,

46:53

and then if you're not feeling it, say,

46:55

hey, thanks for the chat, not feeling it,

46:57

wish you luck. You don't have

46:59

to say, I think you're ugly, bye. He'll know

47:01

it was the face pick and I promise you

47:03

he will survive the

47:05

experience. Says Marsh LC,

47:08

to the woman with the drinking boyfriend,

47:10

her reaction sounds like classic adult child

47:12

of alcoholic stuff, trying way too hard

47:15

to control things that are not actually

47:17

under your control. It doesn't

47:19

seem like she's addressed this, the caller has addressed

47:21

this in a useful way, so my feeling is

47:24

that a relationship with a heavy drinking man is

47:26

not right for her at this time. And

47:29

finally, says Laura, the show with Dulce

47:31

Sloan, is it just me or was

47:33

that a really depressing episode of the

47:35

love cast? What's with most

47:37

men want to kill us or take away our

47:39

right to vote? Sure, it's not a great time

47:41

to be a woman, when has it ever been?

47:43

But come on, is it really

47:45

that bad? Yes,

47:49

it is. Over 50

47:52

years the right talked about stripping women

47:54

of their constitutional right to control their

47:56

own bodies, to terminate unplanned pregnancies, And

47:58

they did it. We word

48:00

alarmed a nerf the number of people

48:03

out there who insisted that anyone who

48:05

said hey, maybe you don't love the

48:07

democratic candidate for president, but they get

48:10

those judicial appointments. We were accused of

48:12

being alarmist and trying to manipulate people

48:14

and now here we are. And.

48:17

The same people who were talking about

48:19

stripping women have the right to abortion

48:21

Or now talking about stripping women of

48:23

their right to vote, which isn't the

48:25

right women have enjoyed since the dawn

48:28

of our Republic. Look the right place.

48:30

A long game. They meant what they

48:32

said about abortion. They mean what they're

48:34

saying right now about contraception and I'm

48:37

sorry, but all this talk lately about

48:39

stripping women of their right to vote.

48:42

We. Should be alarmed. They.

48:44

Mean it. We. Try to keep it

48:46

light here on this Sex and Relationship podcast.

48:48

Some weeks Nancy us to talk me out

48:51

of doing an intro that's just ten minutes

48:53

of me banging my head on the desk.

48:55

But. Everyone's well, We. Gotta

48:57

raise the alarm. And

48:59

this talk from the

49:01

right about ending women's

49:04

suspicions. Yeah. It's

49:06

alarming and I'm going to continue to

49:08

raise the alarm or right for more

49:10

listener comments and more My responses: Target

49:13

Store Ruggles Session: a weekly bonus column

49:15

for Magnum Subs goes up every Thursday

49:17

at Savage.love It is also where you

49:20

will find our Muppet faced Man of

49:22

the week and now listener response calls.

49:25

This is a response to the woman

49:27

who wondered how to meet mass and

49:29

self as he put it, like time

49:31

is running out of your mother Dad's

49:33

advice about motherhood options was. Very.

49:36

good and also that you can

49:38

be up front and your profile

49:40

about wanting a family that is

49:42

an important point of connection for

49:44

you with any man you're gonna

49:46

start see my only suggestion is

49:48

to be aware of your word

49:50

i'm an elder gay who started

49:52

dating after my husband passed and

49:54

i know there are significant differences

49:56

in our circumstances but one thing

49:58

cause meet us profiles were

50:01

ones who had things like

50:03

looking for my soul mate,

50:05

looking for my life partner,

50:07

etc. Those felt like

50:09

I would be submitting for an audition.

50:12

I think that long-term ideal

50:14

is implied in the dating

50:16

process itself. Your family

50:19

goals are absolutely relevant to include, but maybe

50:21

have a friend proofread the rest to make

50:23

sure it doesn't sound like a casting call.

50:26

Hi Dan, this is in response to

50:28

the caller who was asking about etiquette

50:31

on field for faceless photos. So

50:33

I was actually on the other side of that. I

50:36

live in a liberal area, but I was

50:38

on field for kink reasons and I'm a

50:41

pretty private person when it comes to

50:43

my sexuality. So I didn't

50:45

really want to run into people I

50:47

knew and I have seen

50:49

people I knew on every single dating app,

50:51

including field. So what I did

50:53

is I had a cover photo of me from far

50:55

away. So you could at least

50:58

see what my body type was, but there

51:00

was nothing identifying about it. And

51:02

then when I would connect with people, I

51:04

had a paid membership so that they

51:07

could then see my face photos once

51:09

we were connected. And I would

51:12

consider it if somebody connected with me,

51:14

looked at my photos, wasn't

51:16

feeling it, and then disconnected with me. I was

51:19

not the least bit offended and

51:21

I consider it the same if

51:23

somebody even just has to

51:25

send you a photo of their face. I

51:28

think at that point if you're not feeling

51:30

it, you can just disconnect. It's basically the

51:32

same as swiping left at that point, but

51:34

just with a little added element of privacy.

51:36

Also funny story, I also used a different

51:39

name when I was on field, which seemed

51:41

pretty common, and I was really good about

51:43

telling people my actual name before going on

51:45

dates with them, but there was one guy

51:47

that I forgot with and it

51:49

created this really awkward moment as he was

51:52

going in for the kiss and then called me the wrong

51:54

name. But I ended up

51:56

marrying him last year so I guess we figured it out.

51:59

Hello, Savage Love. gang this is a

52:01

response to a caller that was on

52:03

your enough with the poly show for

52:05

the woman who had said she was

52:07

engaged in a relationship with a guy

52:09

long distance. And they had

52:11

used their cameras but they had never

52:13

met in person and she's asking should

52:15

she consider that she's dating the sky

52:18

all my god i wanted to

52:20

just scream through the phone across

52:22

the room and beg this woman

52:24

no no no. No

52:27

you gotta meet this person

52:30

in person several months

52:32

too long i had

52:34

this happen i've been down this

52:36

road and my girlfriend of eleven

52:38

years the guy that she dated

52:40

before me briefly she had this

52:42

happen will you build up something

52:44

online. And you have

52:46

a method in person yet and then

52:48

you see them you're with them physically

52:50

for the first time and you immediately

52:53

realize like oh no don't even think

52:55

about it go see the guy as

52:57

soon as possible and then decide

52:59

if you're in a relationship oh my god i

53:01

was so horrified. And

53:05

we're gonna leave it there three ways

53:07

to get questions or comments for a

53:09

future show you can record your question

53:11

comment savage.love slash ask damn or you

53:14

can make a voice memo on your

53:16

phone and email your question or comment

53:18

to q at savage.love or you can

53:21

call us and leave us a message

53:23

at 206-302-2064 this weekend in seattle i

53:25

will be hosting the opening of hump

53:27

2024 part. One

53:31

at on the boards and the show

53:33

continues around the world part one streaming

53:35

dates will be announced in june maybe

53:37

i will see some of you this

53:39

weekend in seattle i'll also be hosting

53:41

shows. Portland and san

53:44

francisco and berlin go to

53:46

humpfilmfest.com to find out when

53:48

hump and possibly me are

53:51

coming to a city near you. Special

53:53

valentine's day savage love live goes down

53:56

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53:58

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54:00

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54:02

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54:04

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54:06

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54:11

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