0:01

everybody this is a kind of onus

0:04

episode with an r bonus

0:06

season we ,

0:08

our summer mini series as seen

0:10

on radio broadcasts broadcasts

0:13

his something else a recent episode

0:15

of hot take the essential and

0:18

wicked smart podcast from crooked

0:20

media about the climate the

0:23

the shows co hosted by our pal

0:25

amy was developed the terrific climate

0:27

journalist who worked with me on or season

0:29

five series season repair and

0:32

her cohost the climate writer cohost

0:34

use heckler they pack

0:36

each episode with information and analysis

0:39

to help listeners understand what's really

0:41

going on understand the climate emergency

0:44

on maybe how to respect conversation

0:48

they had with the writer david wallace wells

0:50

had up and expanse answer seems

0:55

including that question up how to balance

0:57

the sober reality on

1:00

the ground and sphere

1:03

with the kind of hope we need to keep

1:05

fighting for to use

1:07

that hot take episode they

1:09

called it total moral disaster

1:19

the and welcome doesn't feel i'm any

1:21

mustard else and i'm mary unease

1:23

headwear and today we're gonna take a look at

1:26

how the cove it might seem pandemic influence

1:28

the way we talk about climate since ah

1:30

i don't know i used in the past tense their

1:32

marys it's pretty pretty

1:34

pandemic he still up in here i'd

1:38

always always thinking like all

1:40

the airline has the same time

1:43

when the pandemic kicked off the meteor

1:45

excited it's are acting like the climate crisis

1:47

and it so oh yeah i

1:49

remember that because apparently the

1:51

media things people can hold to existential

1:54

threats in our minds at the same time even

1:56

though we're living through like three at once of

1:59

i mean

1:59

counting conservative lease

2:02

also sad eyes and black woman

2:04

see and so yeah we're

2:06

going to get the all about what i guess today's david

2:08

wallace well

2:09

we had david on back at the

2:11

beginning of the tent that max

2:14

and since then he's com on to do a ton

2:16

of code coverage so be really interesting

2:18

to talk to him to years

2:20

plus later oh my

2:22

god it's been two years yes

2:26

and somehow we've managed to age

2:28

without maturing

2:30

the

2:32

go up

2:35

why blows welcome back

2:37

too hot takes really

2:40

glad such you guys i'm really excited about time travel

2:42

by car

2:44

no you are a day editor at

2:46

new york magazine but you're seen moving to the new york

2:48

times is that right

2:49

the actual you've got me and like the one week

2:51

between jobs are probably by the time and

2:53

it was listening to the somebody already have moved to the

2:55

times starting next week as

2:58

exciting and saying what are you going

3:00

to be up to over that's i'm going to be writing

3:02

a weekly newsletter is part of the opinion

3:04

section on which is can be focused

3:06

on climate but not exclusively

3:08

, climate climate

3:11

something like half or maybe a little less than

3:13

half assault totally assault of

3:15

those pieces are gonna run as

3:18

print columns and the print magazine the loss

3:20

of show up you know that

3:22

this is inside the spot up a loss of show up

3:24

in now on the after on the website

3:26

as regular column so them to the

3:29

you know the average reader won't be the

3:31

defendant something that michelle goldberg

3:33

or ross douthat rights or something and then

3:35

i'm i'm supposed to do a couple big like cover

3:38

story kind of pieces for the magazine

3:40

every year and , hoping beyond

3:42

that to do other things i'm

3:44

in other parts of the newspaper to so

3:47

innocent suffers under review maybe some

3:49

stuff for the book of you may be some podcasting

3:52

who knows but in general a

3:54

bit of i like playing chess right

3:56

would you like invitation which

3:59

is hard to pass up with the performers me or

4:01

times and so many people read it in

4:03

so , people around the world taken so seriously so

4:06

hoping that i'll be as independent as i imagine

4:08

hobbies as it actually unfolds but at

4:11

the moment of the outset it feels like i'm

4:13

sort of an ideal setup to mail is

4:15

well david we will

4:17

be happy to have

4:18

the line when you leave the nearest

4:20

suffers us for censor search

4:23

or any sort

4:26

of yeah

4:30

when we have you back idea was the early

4:32

days of the call the panzer vague and

4:35

we were talking about how people were coming

4:37

to us since we have backgrounds the climate change

4:39

and be like so what's the deal with appeared

4:41

the big and we were all like i don't

4:43

know i'm just as scared as you

4:44

you

4:46

remember that it's been a crazy

4:48

couple of years it's hard on some ways it feels

4:51

like two months ago the we last talked and in other

4:53

ways like a , nother lifetime

4:55

one you've gone on to actually cover

4:58

doesn't quite a bit since assistance

5:00

seekers so i'm , it's

5:03

hard to remember not knowing that much about

5:05

it

5:06

yeah me i mean i think the weird thing about this the

5:08

this unlike what we may have sought at the

5:10

very outset of the pandemic it's no

5:12

probably not going to ever leave us so

5:15

i , remember not knowing about college and i may never

5:17

for the rest of my life not be thinking about of it

5:20

and and that's and

5:22

some of the loss of i'd feel about you know

5:24

man came away to nothing is how it lot of people

5:26

feel the climate change so so sure

5:28

we heard about her loss as one of

5:31

the various and officer contrast

5:33

to draw

5:34

the pandering ended tomorrow and like

5:36

cause it was like

5:37

with the face the earth tomorrow i would think about

5:39

this for the rest of my entire life

5:41

president such a

5:43

huge trauma so

5:46

yeah i think is in a weird way even though

5:48

it's on some level the only thing that we've been

5:50

talking about for a couple of years or like the the biggest

5:52

thing that we've been talking about for couple of years i

5:54

think we also very few of us maybe even

5:57

none of us really like have been able to grab

5:59

our heads around what happened what we went

6:01

through and and i didn't grow

6:03

going to be sorted like reckoning with that

6:05

would have revealed about us with revealed about our politics

6:08

and when it changed about us would change

6:10

about our interpersonal relationships have it

6:12

both reflected our intuitive

6:14

sense of risk and also will be

6:17

shaping our future sense of risk going forward

6:19

i think it's it's really really

6:21

quite profound and will be quite profound a

6:23

sort of every level as social

6:25

and political organization from the smallest

6:28

individual unit although after of

6:30

, and in i ate the

6:32

last he said a senior housing before i left

6:34

was on his in a looking at the some

6:37

particular approach set calculating

6:40

cause mortality called excess mortality which

6:42

is basically like like ,

6:45

you counter estimate the number of people who died

6:47

in the air and and he compared to the average over that it

6:49

is years before the pandemic so it's a sort

6:51

of a catch all statistic that doesn't depend

6:54

on how much testing you're doing or of the hq

6:56

of your population that sort population thing and

6:59

enough he's i was sir just stumbled

7:01

on the fact that among the large countries the

7:03

world the country that had the worst and

7:05

i'm it was russia ah

7:08

which is i get another reminder

7:10

that these are like climate change these are not

7:12

stories are destruction and

7:15

the the apartment allies

7:17

or you know segmented off from the rest of

7:19

our lives are on that they

7:21

are they are just cut

7:23

sunday constant shockwaves through everything

7:25

else that we want to preserve as normal even beta

7:27

as it gets harder and harder to do that

7:29

yeah yeah any

7:31

yeah we got we want to get into some

7:33

more that later but before we do i have

7:36

a quick question happy utah

7:38

is this a dog which

7:40

it was

7:42

like about pundits coming to slap smacked me

7:44

in the face i have no idea

7:47

michael

7:49

of america marries

7:52

know that when someone say this one this bad they mean

7:54

that it's good there's no such thing as you know it's

7:57

is the same words actually when it comes to

7:59

buttons

8:00

okay years appalling

8:02

what

8:03

what is it again mary's repeat

8:05

the class has somehow he is

8:07

how it has a dog with

8:10

are you about

8:12

the park

8:14

video every

8:17

, it you then he got

8:19

a with you don't know say that i'm like

8:21

oh for a hunter henry you bring

8:24

them for murder whatever of emphasis

8:28

the epa episode twenty

8:30

twenty if really felt like the media

8:32

was looking at the climate story

8:35

differently was looking at it for the better

8:37

and the climate covers numbers were way up

8:39

now where they should be but going in the right direction

8:42

and with the school strikes and so many other

8:44

mobilizations it felt like the momentum was

8:46

finally there and then kobe came

8:49

and it just climate it and

8:51

they became this pervasive narrative that

8:53

now wasn't the time to talk about climate

8:56

change and all resources and

8:58

attention needed to go to the pandemic that's

9:00

so crazy to me actually they're dumb

9:02

i had forgotten that like this the

9:04

great had religious are

9:07

they had to pick up steam

9:10

the for an endemic got going oh

9:12

yes but i do i remember thinking how like

9:15

if i were going to engineer you know

9:17

poking a hole in the balloon of

9:19

the youth climate movement it would be that's

9:23

right , would notice

9:25

would for quite you've carmen move move so you

9:27

know bigger than that i mean i think about was one

9:29

of the

9:30

driving

9:32

horses for climate awareness

9:34

climate you know a sense i'm

9:36

an urgency and any ,

9:39

like that the sabres or a huge part of that

9:41

story but it was also much bigger than

9:43

me saab hypocritical corporate leaders

9:45

and prime ministers and presidents who you

9:48

know we're feeling pushed pretty

9:50

quickly to we found

9:52

a rhetorical level no one of the extreme positions

9:55

on climate and we

9:57

can talk about what what happened

9:59

over the last couple and one he

10:01

all considerably less front and center

10:04

on the global agenda long and did

10:06

back then yeah and even

10:08

as a lot of progress has been made over the

10:10

last couple of years i would say but we're

10:12

very much over in a different cultural moment there

10:14

with ago a real high tide

10:16

of climate urgency and anxiety

10:19

i would say about town and

10:21

now or in a place where you know everybody

10:23

sees it differently in different parts the world different

10:26

populations as in have sort of move

10:29

to different paces on this but it seems me if you if

10:31

you are to generalize you have to say that we sort

10:33

of that old into an understanding

10:36

that then came back home to

10:38

change is baked in without having

10:40

the same anger or or anxiety

10:42

about it that we had a couple of years ago before the pandemic

10:45

it's been sort of period of normalization you know

10:47

yeah i think that's right ended some

10:49

it's concerning in a lot yes

10:53

, kind of like the pens mh

10:55

usurped climate change as the big

10:57

existential threat by it like it

10:59

became the thing that bretons all of us

11:01

in there for the thing that we all the to like drop everything

11:04

to work on and climate

11:06

is hits just got him that type

11:08

of recognition starting

11:10

, thousand and eighteen so i just i had one

11:12

year where it's i like the most important thing

11:15

and that when you're happen to be while the country

11:17

was being run by trump's oh yes

11:19

my gasoline on the fire

11:21

am i wasn't called

11:23

comes around climate reporters are getting

11:25

taken off the plane it beats and this is like

11:27

right after so many outlets were like and

11:29

twenty nineteen we're really gonna cover

11:32

the claim has sort of mean if there's a time

11:34

and then the pens him and comes along and they're just like

11:36

nope you're going to go cover the covered

11:38

be because they both deal with numbers

11:40

scientists and way the system matter

11:43

you know i remember

11:44

having a really high tide pitching climate stories

11:46

anywhere as david seems like you

11:48

as he did slow into the cold it be for

11:50

a while you're kind of cove an anti that for a second

11:53

there and wondering if there are any interesting

11:55

trends you saw or questions that you

11:57

came across it surprise you

11:59

what

11:59

what side of it had him in all

12:02

sizes and i confess that i guess more

12:04

and going into covert from claim

12:05

what will be a hard for you to pick up that story

12:08

for example

12:08

you know it was the only thing

12:11

that i was thinking about for period of a

12:13

couple of months and , in

12:15

that way i was not unusual

12:18

even just in them in the general public i think

12:20

it was it was quite overwhelming overwhelming

12:22

onrushing experience to be

12:24

dragged from a sense

12:26

of normalcy into a regular

12:29

daily like panic state

12:31

and as a result suggesting

12:34

themselves areas of increased are suggesting

12:36

themselves and it was to me sort of have

12:38

to fit have great great piece of luck to them

12:41

you know i'm a journalist i'm can journalist call up somebody

12:43

and actually get and dancer my phone calls and

12:45

actually get them to answer my questions this is like really

12:48

pretty great if there's this complicated

12:50

confusing in some ways mysterious

12:53

contagion studying and there

12:55

are some people who understand it better than others but they're not the

12:57

people were like front and center and from

12:59

the public and so in that sense it felt pretty

13:01

comfortably parallel i understand all the ways

13:03

in which you're saying it feels sort

13:05

of thing and we're the one

13:07

, have the expectation that one could jump from and expertise

13:10

someone to efforts used in the other but

13:12

he didn't seem that hard

13:14

for me to do or unusual to do and

13:17

i did right from the start

13:19

think start lot about the lessons that

13:21

the pandemic had four the

13:23

story of climate change him and away the we

13:25

think about it the weather we respond to it the way we

13:27

prepare ourselves for prayer and

13:30

you know i had a number of different

13:32

frameworks that i used

13:35

in thinking in making those comparisons

13:37

of the course of the past couple of years and some

13:39

of them were more encouraging has some of them were more dispiriting

13:42

and we can talk about them sort of one by one that's

13:44

useful but the one that i come back to now

13:46

the people here then is that in

13:49

early two thousand twenty one the

13:51

i'm of published this study

13:53

that said that it would cost fifty

13:55

billion dollars to

13:58

vaccinate the entire world and

14:01

that the pay back

14:03

the return on investment

14:05

i just twenty twenty five would be

14:07

nine trillion so do something

14:09

like a hundred fold payback

14:11

or years time

14:13

war by the standards of us budget

14:16

or even by the centers of us pandemic response

14:19

the fbi find some

14:21

fifty billion dollars and

14:25

we didn't do it and we didn't even

14:28

they seriously about doing it and we didn't even

14:31

the beta

14:32

and it may be the case of those numbers are

14:34

a little off like i'm a been a little more complicated

14:36

little more expensive and sixty billion and

14:38

able to pay back when the been quite as in

14:40

a large as they estimated special

14:43

because you know variants knowledge stuff but

14:45

the basic idea that we had the tools

14:47

that we needed the protect the whole

14:50

world we have the money to stay

14:52

in to to make an investment we knew

14:54

that we would be swimming in the returns

14:57

even if you were just looking at the returns within

14:59

the borders of the united states us share

15:02

of does global returns would have been significant

15:04

enough there would have made it would have made in a laughably

15:06

easy intestines you're making

15:08

, choices from upset

15:11

cost benefit us activists

15:14

and yet we basically as a culture

15:16

as a country as a collection of like

15:18

minded countries and to select a wealthy

15:21

obesity countries we weren't even interested

15:24

in trying to do that we

15:26

basically got excited about this miraculous

15:28

technology these vaccines at work which

15:30

worked incredibly well and then as soon

15:33

as we dot and are false

15:36

we were just oh providing

15:38

anything the rest of the world

15:41

the way

15:42

me like every single american or

15:44

every single breath i'm literally me like

15:47

harm to the people who was up

15:49

for stuff because it all of these countries

15:51

there of hundred people who weren't all that

15:53

well protected amado vaccinated

15:56

and we sort of turn our backs on him

15:58

to and

15:59

started thinking in the wealthy parts

16:02

of the world's that i'm is your and of

16:04

if you are in vaccinated that you know your death

16:06

was your fault or whatever and

16:08

in all others ways i just felt a pandemic

16:10

was teaching us are really really ugly lesson about

16:12

the way that we defined progress

16:15

and possibility almost exclusively

16:18

through an individual

16:21

model of written

16:23

and safety and that any

16:25

approach that extended beyond

16:27

to securing my own personal well being

16:30

was not just too much to ask

16:32

but it was if

16:34

we heard from ugly places where start thinking about

16:36

of ice i said it was like is is something that

16:38

makes rich people in rich

16:40

countries happy

16:42

to see poor people in poor countries

16:45

the offering and dies

16:47

like why why

16:49

wouldn't we pursue a global vaccination

16:51

strategy we would all be better off spray

16:54

like what what what possible explanation

16:56

for their be as like as fundamental psychological

16:59

level yeah for failing to

17:01

make that investment you know it wasn't

17:03

a big upfront costs are turns word ginormous

17:06

compared to be upfront cause they would

17:08

come back to benefits even the rich people

17:11

who maybe that's my biggest not it was there's he

17:13

didn't need to make the argument on humanitarian grounds

17:15

at all and yet we were just

17:17

we didn't even sniff around that

17:19

price we are just like know

17:22

so long as like everybody like know in

17:24

you know manhattan is that is it

17:27

and will any to worry about you know

17:29

taking those that steps and it's just when

17:31

you when you apply that some framework

17:33

to the climate crisis

17:35

is really depressing it's also just for

17:38

he are only since for her to

17:40

the way that we've been proceeding to the hallway on

17:43

which is white

17:44

there's progress this is true we're

17:46

making progress in a in a number of different ways

17:49

both on the mitigation and adaptation front but

17:51

what you're hoping that progress about protection

17:54

is going to extend to like that seven

17:56

or eight or ten billion people on the planet who

17:58

are facing the show

17:59

as a huge

18:02

anything as inferred from very very far

18:04

from medicare advantage of seems

18:09

okay

18:12

what a what a disaster when

18:14

immoral disaster

18:15

yeah really was expecting you say shit

18:17

i

18:20

thought someone

18:22

, place but that was always thus

18:25

right it's like it makes me wonder how naive

18:27

to ever expect anything different and

18:29

that's like in a one of my first as we move

18:32

even talked about assume we'll talk to couple of years

18:34

ago but the political muscles the only

18:36

about the pandemic response was

18:38

flawless imperfections the

18:41

world changed really quickly the world by

18:43

to be another world we buckled and we bunker

18:45

down and you

18:47

know when a lot of ways it may be a mattress that we would

18:49

have liked to make those choices differently designers

18:52

responses differently but like the scale of the

18:54

response was huge and the speed of the response was

18:56

a global standards almost instantaneous

19:00

and there was part of been there done that early

19:02

in the pandemic was thinking okay yes

19:04

we have some incredibly not just incompetent

19:07

leaders to send us an

19:09

but all around the world but also meters who who

19:11

are you know to some degree sociopath it's

19:13

own does work isn't that the people you'd wanna have

19:15

in power and the entire town is

19:18

facing generously unprecedented

19:20

crisis on and yet

19:23

even in that even despite our political

19:26

problems and a geopolitical problems we

19:28

we basically spent a couple of months

19:30

there in the spring of twenty twenty in

19:33

global collective action to protect one

19:35

another and of on

19:37

a pretty inspiring and i've

19:39

only inspiring for climate to and hopes

19:41

you know maybe learn from this

19:44

i'm but i think

19:46

what we've been through a last couple of years

19:48

in i just makes it seem

19:51

pretty clear to me at least that he knows

19:53

i've seen before that before that big story years

19:56

normalization and that in a week we

19:58

tend to define after

20:00

suffering under from the pandemic is acceptable

20:02

and indeed even normal especially

20:05

, it was distant from us just

20:07

an ideologically descent internationally

20:09

whatever was on and

20:12

how quickly that happened how quickly we

20:14

went from being like oh my god

20:16

of thousand people died

20:18

to yeah over a million people

20:21

died in the us

20:23

know

20:23

the rain you know

20:26

i don't know what you think of this i'm

20:28

totally i'm totally i'm thinking

20:31

out loud so as he think i'm way off please

20:34

tell me i've been looking at this

20:36

over the especially the last year

20:39

or so i would say as like the

20:42

real fundamental

20:44

flaw in the social contract

20:47

particularly it isn't the us but

20:49

i also feel less fix

20:51

america's worst slashed

20:54

like most impactful export

20:57

has been this labor

20:59

as individualism you

21:01

, maybe i'm being too hard on and on

21:04

the you that i think said it

21:06

was pretty unique to ask for a while

21:09

and now i see it in all these other

21:11

places and i might man it

21:13

really was hoping it would be

21:15

the other way that like the us would get

21:18

infected , some flavor of

21:20

collectivism system

21:22

whose emphasis it's what's really

21:24

interesting to me i mean that certainly one

21:26

of these one of these stories is like when you

21:28

think about about in

21:30

the us on the left for a long time we talked

21:32

we the social

21:35

welfare states of

21:37

northern europe scandinavia as being

21:40

really admirably generous

21:42

and you know for soul ohms you

21:44

know you just enviable

21:46

in almost every way and

21:48

me when the pandemic bloom

21:50

is off the roof decision after does happen

21:53

emma yeah what i mean i've learned as part

21:55

of them are these initially took

21:57

almost no official measures

21:59

the element of at least but

22:02

there's also you know when you get beyond our

22:04

little bit deeper than just looking at those those

22:06

outlier cases it's like all of

22:08

these rich countries really felt

22:11

in twenty twenty to protect their populations

22:13

and in the u s you know we often

22:16

talked about how bad our responses are bad from bosom

22:19

it it wasn't he was of course

22:21

but we were like depending on what metric you want to use

22:23

we were like

22:24

no one of all the european

22:27

countries and all

22:29

of them the terrible here and

22:31

i think party has to do with what you're talking that mattress

22:34

i mean there's those are the genesis a contract

22:36

that even in a more micro level literally

22:38

like we have health systems that are essentially organized

22:41

around providing for

22:43

the sort of extreme end of life care

22:46

of rich people send

22:48

, not nearly as robustly

22:50

develop to like provide basic public health

22:53

health and guidance

22:56

and tools but also medicine

22:58

and and making sure they're hospital beds available

23:00

for everyone is like all those things that you

23:03

actually can see in some ways in poor countries

23:05

worth and better we failed to deliver

23:08

on again not just again the just but in

23:10

all of these countries that are served like awfully

23:13

like the us in one in

23:15

one way or another one thing i phone will be

23:17

interesting as thinking about the stories twenty

23:19

twenty one in contrast to the store

23:21

is plenty plenty because and twenty twenty

23:24

you know before we have vaccines basically

23:27

none of the rich countries of the world's did

23:29

quote unquote well either you can maybe make a case

23:32

for iceland you can make a case for finland

23:34

on but you know compared to what happened

23:37

in in honduras of korea or

23:39

new zealand or australia even those

23:41

good rich wealth european countries

23:43

that really poorly and and twenty

23:45

twenty one

23:47

the toy was really pretty different it was like

23:49

all the okay intensities got a lot

23:51

of that data will be vaccinated or this got other

23:53

elderly people vaccinated and so they were able

23:55

to withstand and

23:57

in our indoor survived the pandemic much

23:59

more

23:59

away and in the us we just

24:02

didn't so like in

24:04

the us we were low

24:06

crew of failure and twenty

24:08

twenty and twenty twenty one we were like

24:10

uniquely failing despite the fact that

24:13

we've had basically and and to these vaccines

24:16

agnes another feel like old news

24:18

like oh yes american vaccination rates are low but it

24:20

is really when you get down to a crazy for

24:23

the reason that you are talking at talking new to say

24:25

this is the solution this

24:27

is how you deal with a pandemic

24:29

i thinking about it in terms of individual risk

24:32

the provide a

24:34

, you our country that is obsessed with

24:36

navigating the witness that the terrain

24:39

as of in a disruption in disaster

24:41

in an inner as essential thought through

24:44

individual competitions of individual this like

24:46

the vaccine is the best tool

24:49

to provided us to run and then

24:51

we couldn't manage to take it up

24:54

anything like our pure countries levels even

24:56

though though even though it should have

24:58

it's a me perfectly suited to our

25:00

our broken this is the bills this nest

25:03

you're right yeah but i am also get like

25:05

people took it as late as somehow

25:07

being an infringement on

25:10

individual freedom it was framed

25:12

as like something that you do to

25:14

keep the heard health he

25:17

hasn't and not and something that

25:19

will give you back your life with was

25:21

one of many many many examples in

25:24

, twenty one where i was like

25:26

joe biden thinks that we're living in

25:28

a totally different era where

25:31

like you can lean on this you

25:33

know quote unquote civic responsibility

25:36

in else that's of americans to

25:38

like do the right thing and come together and like that

25:40

it's just not the kind

25:41

you're running sir see a look

25:43

around you know like look around

25:46

and that's another i've been really some

25:48

of us the over just you

25:50

know anecdotally socially it's like a

25:53

this is not just about like crazy

25:55

republicans in red states as much as

25:57

i know so many liberals who spent on tony

26:00

in the say that the main goal

26:02

of our lives was to protect

26:05

the most vulnerable people around us and them

26:07

and about young came around there were like people

26:09

were vulnerable that's , them of

26:13

living quarters yes and i was

26:15

like wait i senior husband what happened

26:17

here like that is here crazy

26:19

reversal political principle that was processed

26:21

was know reversal at all by

26:23

all of them

26:25

and is listening pretty ugly about our culture

26:27

this maybe even deeper than that sort of

26:29

partisan device that we obsess over so much

26:32

yeah i gotta say that was one of the things that scare

26:34

me than most when the pandemic rolled around

26:37

arm and i totally saw that coming because

26:39

at the same time that likes you know the liberals

26:41

were like we're the ones who care about people and

26:43

we were mask of we care about people were saying

26:46

were socially this insane because we care about people

26:48

they were also you know all of these signs

26:50

around town about like you

26:53

know if you're running without a mask on oprah

26:55

television it you you know

26:57

like i feel like the pandemic has really

27:00

damaged or the social fabric

27:02

of our society and we desperately need

27:04

that if we are going to fight

27:06

crime or any

27:08

other existential threat in the in

27:10

the future so yeah that's

27:13

that's deeply concerned

27:14

any look at like if you look at or

27:16

if you remember back to coverage

27:18

in the early days of the pandemic like in this

27:21

spring summer twenty times there

27:23

was a lot of coverage in the in the mainstream

27:25

media about these on racial

27:27

in class disparities in terms of death race this

27:29

like a big part of the story and ten twenty

27:32

and it's basically disappeared

27:34

as part of the way the people talk about the pandemic in

27:36

twenty twenty one and with like replaced

27:38

it with is incredibly ideological lungs

27:41

and which we talk about read covered

27:43

in that like the death rates in red states and you

27:45

don't get i don't want to minimize that like conservative

27:48

leaders have been really terrible

27:50

yes it is definitely the case

27:52

that conservative places concerning states concern

27:54

for counties as lower best

27:56

initiation as a result has decades in it's

27:59

terrible they're not the gaps

28:01

between like the blue states and the right

28:03

to say it's are not meaningfully bigger than the

28:05

gaps between educational levels

28:07

between income levels and between racial

28:09

groups like we have all of these still

28:12

really deeply problematic gaps in

28:14

our country and we like choose

28:16

to highlight some of them sometimes

28:19

but not in a consistent way i

28:21

just really really worries me

28:23

that were turning away from those like

28:25

you know there's if there's ever someone who's a

28:28

poor engine go to college is like

28:30

dramatically less likely to be vaccinated and some his

28:32

retirement accounts that's accounts really big problem

28:34

that we should be trying to solve

28:36

through social policy and public messaging

28:39

not just by saying as job i didn't

28:41

like the presence of united states are literally

28:44

said at some point lead to the on vaccinated

28:46

is like can be a world opinion of what

28:48

has he said if i yeah yeah

28:51

, like this not all just as young girl

28:53

out they're not getting vaccinated his latest latest

28:57

were skeptical of the public health of healthcare

28:59

in general the in on him all that much experience of

29:01

it because they've been deprived access

29:03

arrays are so many reasons why people have failed

29:05

to protect themselves the way that we might also

29:07

they would and it's just is so

29:10

simplistic and yeah like

29:12

to sort of dispiriting to play it all on the

29:14

feet of partisanship that's a big problem

29:16

but it's as not at all or problem in

29:19

fact i think about committing suicide

29:21

yes obviously has since reciprocal

29:23

but it comes to climate action but by the way of

29:25

pronouncing was way of different person could have a

29:27

different but we have it's are funded build

29:29

it was a law now

29:31

one hundred percent i philly has really seen

29:33

that the last couple years i unfortunately

29:36

that that is the big message

29:38

to i think especially young

29:40

voters right now is like democrats

29:43

won't do any better on climate yeah

29:45

which naughty the message

29:48

is have opposed essays are whole

29:50

system has been like kind of step sons

29:53

and he you know the great did when it got

29:55

step phone oh god married

29:59

oh did it why

30:03

yeah play a renault little line

30:06

okay what the guess get some science

30:08

i know

30:12

me i'd like a un it and babies or text

30:14

me the answers that extra i don't know

30:17

and i will okay

30:19

my cheating know as eating have never gotten

30:21

as many

30:22

ever

30:25

so one of the things that

30:27

was the constant refrain

30:30

in the first few months of the

30:33

pandemic was this we are

30:35

the virus idea nature

30:37

is healing assists and

30:39

home that's i guess i wonder

30:41

david how you saw that narrative

30:43

kind playing out over

30:45

the course of their pandemic a

30:47

thing we we now know

30:49

conclusively nature did not he'll suffer

30:52

fanaticisms us that

30:55

i'm curious how you can have saw

30:57

that playing out and out and you

31:00

know where that intersects with

31:02

some of these same time as tendencies

31:05

that we were just talking about which really feel like

31:07

you know eugenics slash

31:10

ego fast as some see to have

31:12

an a handshake okay

31:15

so yeah i'm just i'm curious what you saw

31:18

as you are reporting on and a both

31:20

the things over the past couple years how

31:22

you saw that and a free me evolve

31:25

well

31:26

the right i basically in my like

31:28

corner of the social media universe i saw

31:31

relatively quickly the

31:34

all those people making those cases

31:36

like getting dumped on the made fun of

31:38

but i do think it for the brief period

31:40

when those means were really like all

31:42

over the place and they did teach us

31:44

something they did tell us something or a few things

31:47

and you know they reminded us like how

31:49

much effort is required to

31:52

maintain system

31:55

that pollutes the environment

31:57

to the extent of it does that keeps you

31:59

know why

31:59

out of our backyard and our

32:02

back alleys and

32:06

war against some of these forces

32:09

to allow us to live in the illusion that we

32:11

live in post natural

32:13

landscapes and

32:16

letting up our guard on that just that little

32:18

meant little like we did see pretty

32:20

quickly some signs of like bounce

32:22

back and that just shows just how

32:25

how we've been fighting that we're

32:27

all along and which he i think

32:29

a lot of people just started to as i'm

32:31

a steady settled

32:34

state of conditions rather than one that had to be

32:36

routinely maintained through sort

32:38

of aggressive action and

32:42

you know another lesson is sort of

32:44

related is like you know the global

32:46

economy like really shut

32:48

down for depending on one

32:50

count it like a least a couple of months

32:53

and was in was diminished

32:55

state for basically for basically

32:57

twenty twenty and yet emissions only sell

33:00

what six percent yeah was like just

33:03

under six percent so

33:05

okay to analysis

33:08

thing that was his is do that every year

33:10

for a decade and then accelerate

33:13

that right i love

33:15

wouldn't tell us you're just a sort of like mind

33:17

blowing showcase of just what a big

33:20

project decarbonisation

33:22

really it right

33:24

more and a half systemic

33:25

exactly like yeah everybody was home

33:27

but they were on their devices

33:31

using and we were still using

33:34

a shit load of fossil fuels the main thing

33:36

that true

33:37

reduction in emissions was the lack

33:39

of the air travel of yeah yeah was so

33:41

it wasn't like people's lives

33:43

in terms of the missions it

33:46

didn't shift that much apart

33:48

from

33:49

lol yeah like commuting

33:51

says people were driving to work that that

33:54

sauce and

33:55

then i'm and then the air travel

33:57

thing so yeah i just unlikely

33:59

as if

33:59

don't have a replacement

34:02

energy source

34:04

those emissions are gonna drop that much

34:07

he , yeah have you seen

34:09

on here we are in were now you know for

34:12

whereas a new emissions p craving we're

34:14

gonna have to traverse couple of years and when aiming

34:16

at a new poll peak and

34:19

the i think this is really really important

34:22

like it's you know it may seem a little

34:24

bit wonky here are allowed to

34:27

smoke inside baseball but it's over

34:29

there is there son garrett about

34:31

their which isn't own true

34:33

that there is progress being made us and there

34:35

is progress being made like we now think some of the worst

34:37

case scenarios are probably less likely than that

34:39

you thought there were few years ago and us because

34:43

, for a lot of reasons a relatively

34:45

sastre decarbonization says

34:47

after seems possible than seems possible for years

34:49

ago but there's this eagerness

34:52

insane and feel it sometimes myself and

34:54

dickinson and and dickinson

34:56

you like to be optimistic of has

34:58

to say to place women far

35:01

you know literally were at all time highs

35:04

yeah i be there is no

35:06

we don't fuck with our an urban myth

35:09

, don't we

35:12

say and the rage zones but worth

35:14

of in this were in this really weird rhetorical

35:16

place where like

35:18

we gotta talk about the good news on climate

35:20

and you know too bad about the kids were so anxious

35:23

when own going to therapy for climate and is

35:25

kind of reasons all that

35:27

and yet like was good news i mean

35:29

we we i am sorry

35:31

mister most recent i p recent c report

35:34

no data they're in the last decade

35:37

per capita emissions have gone up higher than

35:39

they've ever fucking been so this means that

35:41

in the time us of history when we

35:43

have known the absolute most about

35:45

this problem and what needs to be done to solve

35:47

s we have gone on the absolute opposite

35:50

direction and like that is that's yes

35:52

the truth and i specific

35:55

yeah it's i don't see that had

35:57

been people out or suggests that people

35:59

stopped ing i see that to meet

36:01

people fucking mad enough to do something

36:04

like i really

36:05

yeah if you're going

36:07

that route to that you mind if i briefly play the

36:09

clear some i love yeah i

36:12

say , i would say

36:14

that i'm for generations

36:17

the green transition the process

36:19

of decarbonization was really understood

36:22

as almost all levels as

36:24

i'm a hard costly

36:27

projects for those who believed

36:29

it was necessary like the three of us

36:31

it was going to also be difficult

36:34

and burdensome

36:36

in of economic way although i don't mean economic

36:38

to find narrowly or me and you know says gonna make people's

36:41

lives worse and they're gonna have to do with

36:43

less than that sort of thing that was of quite conventional

36:45

view of what

36:47

real climate action would require

36:50

and you know there

36:52

were there been cracks and that philosophy

36:54

and that view of the challenge

36:57

for a while now but i think

36:59

over the last few years the rapidly

37:02

falling costs of renewable energy has

37:04

really changed almost everyone's

37:07

view of that dynamic in a way that

37:09

is encouraging in the sense

37:11

that you know we are these peaks

37:13

we've done really badly given what

37:15

we've known about the problem to this point they're

37:18

basically no signs of actual concrete

37:20

progress in the sensors and encourage

37:23

downward about in certain countries

37:25

you can see some of the progress that of the international level

37:27

very much not on the other hand

37:30

it is not insane to i

37:32

don't think if you're plotting the

37:34

likely future of fossil

37:36

fuel use on the next in a fifty

37:38

seventy five hundred years to be

37:41

feel pretty confident that it's going to

37:43

decline yeah i think that's true

37:45

yeah you know the raiders really important to declines

37:47

over twenty years over fifty the server

37:49

eighty years at really really matters but

37:52

even five years ago loud they

37:54

just wouldn't know it would have felt fantastic

37:56

all to say we're going to get to the

37:58

earlier yeah that's

37:59

it would a deathly didn't feel like a definite

38:02

as it does

38:03

where you're like this just makes financial sense

38:05

to do at this point and as a result

38:07

you have like you know all these politicians were talking

38:09

about sarge the mouse yes and were like stop

38:11

subsidizing fossil fuels yes but like they're

38:14

also giving speeches about literally going carbon

38:16

neutral and yes covenants unless you're on as a boss

38:18

it's enjoy your losses i'm sorry but yes yes

38:21

me to do their five ten years ago and into that

38:23

means i think that we can start to think about the

38:25

future in a slightly

38:27

different way which is to say

38:29

you know

38:30

we are you still have locked in

38:33

an unconscionable level of warming

38:35

i think it's really really important to keep

38:37

that in mind at all times we are inevitably

38:40

going to be warming beyond levels

38:43

gonna considered acceptable as recently

38:45

as the paris accords on that's

38:48

inevitable now and we're gonna have to be going

38:50

to consequences of that was as was you're gonna be huge

38:52

but it's also the case that we're probably not

38:54

can be looking at like five six

38:57

degrees celsius of warming the century

39:00

and that means that some truly

39:02

excruciating disruptive in

39:04

a potentially like civilization

39:06

collapsing level warming is

39:09

, not impossible but it's just much

39:11

much much less likely and

39:14

my own view is we

39:16

need to keep both of those things of those at the same

39:18

time and i really worry that life

39:21

our culture and i see if is

39:23

what a somewhat of humans you car culture as a she sighs

39:25

our cultures already toggling to like well

39:28

as sixty five degrees off the table them like

39:30

we won i'm

39:32

see

39:34

i'm seeing that i'm saying like okay we

39:36

did it and i'm scrap all the emissions

39:38

reductions less a hunter said do a

39:40

one hundred percent cdr and i'm like

39:42

guys come on a

39:44

couple i get this a d i

39:46

s especially actually i will have to save

39:49

that like one thing that the

39:51

me optimism actually also the came

39:53

from that same ip c c

39:55

report that was pretty explicit about

39:57

how bad we've done so far the

39:59

like there is a chapter in there that laid out

40:02

basically here's how modern

40:05

says it he could work i'm

40:07

if we measured

40:09

well being and people's

40:13

they , it like that decent living

40:15

decent living energy and acts like

40:17

this really pretty radical idea

40:19

for like completely reinvesting how

40:23

modern society can work and can work

40:25

that's something i can't imagine ever

40:28

reading in an ice for

40:30

an i was like this this this is given some

40:32

kind of like post capitalism visiting

40:34

document i don't understand how

40:36

this got into and

40:37

these you see report it seems as i got a practical

40:39

level that like the scientists have figured out that that

40:42

that policymakers review they only

40:44

review the summer for pacific my

40:46

sneak on another cinemax a letter

40:48

read been arrested or for i mean

40:50

it's it's while the anyway the fact that

40:52

like there are a number as

40:55

well regarded researchers

40:58

and enough research on all

41:00

of the other ways that economies

41:02

and societies could work to

41:04

to make it into a very you know stodgy

41:07

report like that is somewhat heartening to me to

41:09

that there are

41:10

some indications that people are thinking beyond

41:13

just plugging their set into

41:15

solar set of coal yeah

41:18

i'm i wouldn't go back to their we

41:20

are the virus think as i just every

41:22

time i hear that come up i think it's really important

41:24

to emphasize that it

41:26

was mostly are

41:29

disproportionately black and brown people who are getting

41:31

sick with a virus and at

41:33

the equals asses undertones

41:36

of we are the virus resist like deeply

41:39

like deeply and also humans

41:41

have exists on this planet

41:42

in harmony forever it's and not been

41:44

a virus

41:45

ram as so yeah

41:47

i feel remiss to not mention that in also

41:49

think this is other things coming up now where

41:52

did all this research saying that once

41:54

white people learn that it was people of color

41:56

that we're getting hit by the pandemic they

41:58

tuned out now i'm

42:00

hearing these conversations that maybe

42:03

we have the same problem with climate change and

42:05

that we should that talking about kind of justice

42:07

and in environmental justice because

42:09

then it'll tip off you know these

42:12

by people who are these rich

42:14

white people that if people of color who

42:16

are getting hurt so why should i care

42:18

i have feelings about this

42:20

the better out i was the

42:22

first

42:23

so i'd actually didn't realize

42:25

that that had made it's way into the

42:27

climate conversation to at so

42:29

concerning that

42:30

i mean i think i don't think it's a question of

42:32

like not emphasizing

42:35

the people of color who get hurt first

42:37

and worse as it is emphasizing

42:40

that

42:41

everyone will be impacted by this

42:43

no matter where i think you know

42:45

that i sadly it

42:47

seems like one thing we learned with the

42:49

pandemic is that if people

42:51

think they're safe they

42:53

don't give a shit about other people

42:56

and as and as that's especially true

42:59

think of rich way americans and

43:01

yellow so i think slink

43:04

emphasizing how much this

43:06

will actually impact judith this

43:09

idea that there's some

43:11

i don't know i still think there's that's a prevalent

43:14

escape hatch mentality amongst

43:17

well see people in this country

43:19

like that yeah oh you can just build a bunker

43:21

you can just go to mars or you

43:23

know everything

43:25

arrive at advantage of it's not just

43:27

that it's like the escape hatch

43:30

becomes more than model of

43:32

thinking becomes more attractive and

43:35

makes you feel better about herself for

43:38

, more and that's

43:40

the biggest like it's not just like well

43:42

of were okay down care

43:44

about other people if we look at

43:46

what happened in the pandemic you know as and

43:48

you know different points we

43:50

failed to take the measures that could

43:52

have protected quote unquote us

43:55

like the americans or whatever because

43:58

they would have also protected other people we're

44:01

not just doing the bare minimum

44:03

to secure the looked like the safety

44:05

and livelihoods of a small group of people

44:07

who are judged by the international system

44:09

to be most important wesley not

44:11

maximizing those people's well

44:13

being because maximizing their wellbeing

44:16

would mean also doing something

44:18

the help people living

44:20

for lives over in the world can we find

44:22

that so distasteful a we'd actually

44:25

rather live ourselves

44:27

worse lives but with a bigger gap

44:29

between awesome everybody to

44:32

, something to help them them

44:34

such as even if it makes it better

44:37

in in the end and i you know this

44:39

is yeah this is it's really scary

44:42

really really and i , a piece

44:44

i the fall about the computers

44:47

pieces are some a lot of different things but it was basically

44:49

in autonomous car global climate justice and

44:51

and term for the number on with the data

44:53

com reparations among other things and one

44:55

of them points are made to sort of points in that case

44:58

was in as you take seriously lot

45:00

of these projections for and of century

45:02

warming that have gotten a little bit better that

45:04

the last couple of years and say

45:06

okay we're probably gonna end up somewhere in that

45:08

to the three degree range and then

45:12

you're litter of that five the amateur

45:14

level at which some northern

45:16

countries in the world are still going to be benefiting

45:18

on a lot of the richest countries in the

45:20

world in the sort of mid northern latitudes

45:23

won't be dramatically suffering they'll

45:25

be suffering a bit but don't you know they'll be

45:27

doing okay and a global sales

45:29

will just be absolutely destroyed

45:33

and , is probably not

45:35

a coincidence coincidence

45:38

engineered a piece of progress

45:41

that has made that outcome the

45:43

likeliest outcomes not

45:45

wanting which we actually he noted the

45:47

most wicked to protect the most people in the world

45:50

and not even the one in which we did the

45:52

most wicked to protect the wellbeing of the rich

45:54

people in the world but the one in which

45:57

there was the starkest

45:59

contrast

45:59

between the face of the global

46:02

which in the global poor is like

46:04

just about like were like that's our

46:06

that's our bull's eye that guy forward public

46:08

and the landing here and ask him

46:10

so

46:12

horrifying it off

46:13

yeah

46:15

affair about this idea that like we've

46:17

you don't sit and talk about who's

46:19

getting hurt because it'll make

46:21

people not cats first of all is not just

46:24

rich white people i know i i was

46:26

we're saying that by our poor white people

46:28

are just identify more with the race than they do

46:31

with their economic status

46:33

gray and i think this is more evidence

46:35

that we need said black or white

46:37

supremacy he has yeah suppose

46:39

so like just love just don't

46:42

acknowledge the masses yang like an affair

46:44

of i like russia hear

46:46

no evil see no evil when it comes to white supremacy

46:49

white would keep kind of come up with these

46:51

short term solutions to

46:53

dealing with white supremacy and it had

46:55

like it doesn't work we're not going

46:57

to be we don't like i think a lot of people think

46:59

like oh we don't have time to topple white

47:02

supremacy because climate him so urge and

47:04

pandemic of so are just we have to find these workarounds

47:07

these actually until you actually deal

47:09

with it you will never solve any of

47:11

those problems and is just like the

47:13

refused to live and from reconstructs

47:16

okay

47:18

exactly a yes i mean

47:20

that was like the whole

47:22

that was the whole jam with white supremacy

47:24

was to keep the people

47:26

out of of class affiliation right

47:29

but when i was lives

47:31

yeah lives weaponized as against

47:35

any kind of an uprising and yeah we see

47:37

it muslim and time again oh

47:39

the and over only a note on some

47:41

level a pandemic shows us like as a

47:43

deepening of the same problem in the sense

47:45

that insist that you know if you think about you

47:47

know if peter singer's model of like the expanding

47:50

circles amphitheater of this was in on some

47:52

level sort of western

47:54

civilization idea about itself that like

47:56

over time you know empathy would extend

47:58

farther and farther from from a smaller

48:00

from a smaller unit

48:03

, until it eventually reached all

48:05

people on the planet and maybe even all creatures

48:07

and living things on the planets that was the sort

48:10

of like conceptual sales

48:12

pitch and for my global liberalism or

48:14

whatever and it's interesting view

48:16

sudden mary about white supremacy was is

48:18

obviously least through all of this all of huge

48:20

problem here but it's also the case that late with

48:23

the pandemic like get a little people

48:25

we'll hear other refer people who are dying

48:28

the like you fucking deserve it

48:30

yeah suicide or

48:32

the ass is if i saw were rather

48:34

than like he was if you are hoping for like

48:36

an expanding circles empathy a slow slow

48:39

part because we had this becomes a dynamic

48:42

as a conduit has grown zero some success

48:44

global corporations were like shrinking

48:47

that that circle that is

48:49

such as that were like not expanding as quickly

48:51

as it's like in a lot of cases were making

48:53

it smaller and smaller so that even

48:55

partisanship in the us

48:58

is like functioning like functioning same

49:00

spirit that like race and class

49:02

is sue it's not quite there but inflate

49:04

it just shows that we're we're regarding

49:07

each other with like so much disdain

49:09

and an animated by someone self interest at all

49:11

except so much more some

49:13

guy even among the people that in a we would have

49:16

a generation ago love to sort of reform

49:19

can be considered identify the yeah

49:21

yeah yeah it's like we

49:24

can't see the forest for the trees and

49:26

and speaking of trees see know how many

49:28

apples go on a tree

49:29

pepper

49:32

they three i don't i was was

49:35

the us avenue all

49:37

of them

49:43

though i knew that you just mentioned

49:45

this are reporting that you did

49:47

that said that russia was i

49:49

the hardest hit am

49:51

in terms of these excess deaths counts

49:53

but again

49:55

the war started we heard

49:58

that it wasn't the time to talk about climate

50:00

wasn't a time you talk about anything but the war

50:02

really so i'm i'm curious

50:05

i know just what you think given the context

50:08

of coal dust has given the context

50:10

of where we're at with climb

50:13

we're like how you think all of

50:15

this should be i

50:17

never understood are still turn through

50:19

the context of russia's

50:22

, of ukraine and sort of this

50:25

the war and the way and fossil fuel industry is

50:27

using the war and all of that stuff i'm

50:29

curious for your your thoughts on this

50:31

big global saying

50:34

that's that's overly

50:35

all of us right now whoop first don't

50:37

mention something i thought of earlier in our conversation

50:39

the didn't bring up which is that i see

50:41

a real clear parallel in the way

50:44

that the warm the ukraine is

50:46

sort of allowed us to clinical turn

50:48

the page on the pandemic to

50:50

the way that the pandemic

50:52

invited us to turn the page on climate change

50:54

climate inches saying yeah

50:57

and i think that there is this

50:59

weird

51:00

that was legal dynamic at play

51:03

at the control level maybe not necessarily

51:05

the individual level where like we

51:07

do seem to have like

51:09

hunger for like the next exes

51:11

existential story

51:14

like mean part as a waiter start

51:17

thinking of the last one as like resolved

51:20

even if that resolution is

51:22

a terrifying status quo that nobody would

51:24

have thought was acceptable before

51:27

and i find it really striking

51:29

how like all of our major

51:32

newspapers are like to follow

51:34

war coverage which is an impediment

51:36

says on a cordless usually usually

51:40

, story every newspaper now as a day

51:42

is about the war in ukraine and

51:45

i'm sending a because my niece

51:47

and nephew who are i'm ten and seventy

51:50

six really striking to me how much they are

51:52

thinking about the war as like be

51:54

story of our

51:56

the here and enjoy the guess

51:58

it's really quite fully

51:59

the trident

52:01

the culture and you know

52:03

often in many ways like allowed us to stop

52:05

thinking about things we're setting over sixty nine months

52:07

ago said and democrats are sexy spray

52:10

so how office is a climate change i mean they're a lot

52:12

of ways to talk about that dynamic

52:14

and i'd be curious to hear how each of

52:16

us can do about it but the that the few points

52:19

i would mention are for , i think the really

52:21

under appreciated feature this war

52:23

is that on it is

52:25

the act of a other cause we

52:27

do have a pet or state state

52:30

is in some degree

52:32

watching the world turn away from

52:34

oil and gas with his in the low flooded his answer

52:37

for the territories his own and

52:40

that uses soils float in allow

52:42

another shit or get off the pot oliver

52:44

was and never have the power

52:47

over the was in particular

52:49

that it has by now ever

52:51

again and five years some out

52:53

and use some mouse is war happened would

52:56

they be making would they got in there sanctions for

52:58

i'm russian gas to continue to flow

53:00

the don't know i don't say so but

53:02

like i think that you know i'm wearing

53:05

it was er physician our prudent has

53:07

considerably more power think on those

53:09

on those friends and he would in

53:11

not enough for generation of a half years or so

53:14

i think he probably knows and understands that

53:16

sweden you know that source

53:18

or causes of the war i think there is a

53:20

climate and energy

53:22

component to that and narrative not

53:24

to say this the only thing stopping into orbit it is

53:27

part of the max and learn you

53:29

know they're so like what does it mean and

53:31

how our we responding you know i

53:33

think on some levels in the longer

53:36

term it could be positive

53:39

in the sense i think it is teaching

53:41

everyone even the most casual

53:43

consumers sort of news continue

53:46

dependence on fossil fuels is

53:49

really risky and

53:51

means that we are in bed with some

53:53

quite ugly people in some quite ugly regimes

53:56

and that the

53:58

sort of another argument

53:59

for

54:01

awesome i'm as quickly as we

54:03

can wear when we can and

54:06

you know that's not to say that your

54:08

happiness fast enough they are

54:10

like in but i do think that the war

54:13

has in this or medium term long term

54:15

way shown us that the

54:18

problem is that like nobody making decisions is

54:20

making decisions are medium i launched from places

54:22

like snyder all seeking luxuries

54:25

like while the gas prices going up to

54:27

some fun now we got

54:29

to scramble to fix that and yeah

54:31

demands they've taken to six that

54:33

a things are really

54:36

not just like

54:37

that on a climate be suspicious

54:39

bad policy in

54:41

the sun i was almost nothing

54:43

the joe biden other by the mister says done

54:46

to quote unquote address this quote unquote

54:48

crisis actually going

54:50

to reduce the system price of gas

54:53

in the edo in like the

54:55

over the next bunch of months i guess this is all

54:57

martin plays and you're like that doesn't i

54:59

mean

54:59

yeah i was looking i'm

55:02

i've been just watching the news and i'm like wow

55:04

show me you don't know how gas pricing

55:06

works without telling me don't know that get how

55:08

gas praising reflex you really not under cyanide

55:10

is worse because leagues none of this

55:12

will have a near term impact city

55:15

folks yeah

55:17

it's and very

55:18

infuriating test a position where in the

55:20

where it where in this global energy

55:23

markets and actually even though we

55:25

like produce enough oil depending on a one

55:27

thing about we personal foil for ourselves like we'd

55:30

actually can and for the pace because

55:32

cancelled all these other ultimately

55:34

on the market tommy financial eyes and that's and whole other

55:36

successes subject to be made

55:41

the world has been financial as most widespread

55:43

is just they they're looking for really

55:46

short term political play his own

55:48

and they're taking them left and right even when

55:50

the cost to their own stated

55:52

chemicals as the nikkei

55:55

has offered you know so and those matches

55:57

in the u s you know you you know the in

55:59

the certain

55:59

there there a little bit more

56:01

under the thumb of the you know under russia some

56:04

when it comes to energy at the moment but it

56:06

could be taking the opportunity

56:08

to much more quickly the new

56:10

belies their energy infrastructure

56:13

and said their life bringing in

56:16

this been out giant tankers

56:18

u s o m g and

56:21

essentially continuing their fossils

56:23

or dependence on rather them isis

56:26

is an opportunity to engineer the way out of it

56:29

i spoke to someone in in europe

56:31

like as a youth crime activists his

56:33

in belgium and and i was saying

56:35

here there are lots of ways that

56:38

people kurds routine a

56:40

reduce the demand for that

56:42

energy in energy in fairly painless

56:45

ways you know and and she said you'd

56:47

be surprised how many people

56:50

in all these supposedly socialist european

56:52

countries are like i don't

56:54

wanna turn my thermostat down two

56:56

degrees that's infringing on

56:58

in a personal freedom and i'm like no

57:00

we've infected the world

57:04

you know just thinking

57:06

about the war in ukraine the

57:08

pans and egg and climate change and none

57:10

of the things that ties mother got it this

57:12

information on with the

57:14

war it's more like this information in

57:17

russia but also like russia

57:19

is all up and through science and

57:21

this information in the united states

57:23

suicide this interesting

57:25

kind of confluence and we were talking earlier

57:28

about like how people relate well if you

57:30

died of covert then you deserve their and aside

57:32

you know i think a lot people think that way about

57:34

on vaccinated people are people in red states

57:37

and hello from a red state of louisiana

57:39

over here it's kind of fucked up but it's

57:41

also like you leave people's brains

57:43

to rot watching away n and fox

57:45

news and all these other things you do nothing

57:47

about it yeah of course they're gonna start to think some crazy

57:50

shit yeah i mean there's

57:52

a huge disinformation component

57:54

just the fossil fuel

57:56

industry

57:57

right now to a mean there really

57:59

there is coming from a

58:02

p i that they were having meetings and said

58:04

way before to than actually

58:06

invaded ukraine

58:07

the us the religious

58:09

here's the sanctions were okay with here's

58:12

this here's that so like in a very

58:14

similar we're cove it actually where they were

58:17

i think as early as

58:20

is sad be wary and march that march p

58:22

i was sending letters to the white house

58:24

with it's

58:25

of wish list of of

58:27

items for you know

58:29

i'm special

58:30

or about and incentives and regulatory

58:32

rollbacks of things like that they're they're very

58:34

very good at those

58:37

knowing exactly what to be lobbying

58:39

for the minute any crisis hits

58:41

and knowing exactly what message

58:43

to be pushing out because you know day

58:46

one of the invasion the a p i

58:48

was right on top of you ,

58:50

how this , we

58:53

need us fossil fuels national

58:55

security blah blah blah and

58:58

honestly isolate that narrative

59:00

really took hold of the mainstream media

59:02

and has not led led up every

59:04

single time i see soaks

59:06

talking about this it's like well

59:09

we have to remember the gas prices

59:11

though and we have to make sure that

59:13

you know people are being gouged at the pump

59:15

and it's like yeah but none of these things have

59:17

anything to do with that

59:19

meanwhile these these are like a lot of the same people

59:21

who told you to years ago that the

59:23

only solution to climate change as a carbon tax

59:26

exactly exactly

59:28

exactly yeah yeah so

59:30

yeah it's release grow

59:32

what amy to get back

59:34

to your road sort of met a prospective

59:37

like

59:40

yeah you know as much

59:43

conspiracy theorists with his okay no strings

59:45

hang up in as and closet or whatever

59:47

both arms bring it on david

59:50

got my i got my to i know that on

59:52

right now

59:53

rep the purpose but you know like

59:56

the with the basic

59:58

proposition that like

1:00:00

our way of walls

1:00:02

this tied up in our

1:00:05

large cars and are

1:00:07

large highways and our mom commuting

1:00:09

distance is an hour unbelievably

1:00:12

irresponsible uses of fossil fuels

1:00:15

compared to even and

1:00:17

countries in the world elsewhere the world that are richer

1:00:19

than us on a per capita basis deaths

1:00:22

propaganda

1:00:24

oh it's i mean it's propaganda

1:00:26

created by the fossil fuel industry like that's

1:00:28

document said i don't even have the up as

1:00:30

a conspiracy israel six of

1:00:32

us i mean there's still very

1:00:35

interesting in fact sexy just last week there

1:00:37

was a new paper that came out

1:00:39

with a bunch of new documents that

1:00:41

i'm that really showed how actually

1:00:43

even when you know the whole time

1:00:45

right alongside science denial

1:00:48

the industry was saying like we're we need

1:00:50

to

1:00:51

camera on the american way of life

1:00:53

the

1:00:54

the economic impact like who can

1:00:56

we commissioned to do a study that will say

1:00:59

that this you know it's gonna cost

1:01:01

american households you know

1:01:03

x y z and you know here

1:01:05

though the lifestyle things that we should hammer on

1:01:07

any so sure it's like you know they're gonna take

1:01:09

your burgers and they're gonna see footage

1:01:12

of this stuff and the whole

1:01:14

i don't know i select that the fossil fuel industry

1:01:17

was was actually the way

1:01:19

more instrumental in shaping

1:01:22

what we even think of as the american

1:01:24

way of less than a thing

1:01:25

most people now

1:01:28

and so instrumental that you know

1:01:31

we actually have to deal with those cultural

1:01:33

biases not as

1:01:35

though they're just inventions but like they are

1:01:37

now we'll effect honestly like

1:01:39

think about their damn that is

1:01:43

maybe one or this not the biggest

1:01:46

blocker to climate action

1:01:48

is this like this really deeply

1:01:50

rooted idea that

1:01:53

your life will be materially worse

1:01:55

if you don't have those things and

1:01:58

the and yes systems that make it's so

1:02:00

cute the kids like there are a lot of places

1:02:03

in , country where if you can't

1:02:05

drive or and don't have

1:02:07

a big car your life is

1:02:09

harder you know and they have they

1:02:11

has can have weighed in on that too but

1:02:14

yeah it's oh the other thing as thing

1:02:16

just want to know to on this the disinformation

1:02:18

france disinformation that france is of the same exact

1:02:20

people and organizations were pushing

1:02:23

colitis information that pushed

1:02:25

climate doesn't permission for a long time

1:02:27

have like a little

1:02:28

group of these weird finity

1:02:30

like a lone wolf climate denial

1:02:32

it's like no one take seriously

1:02:34

that

1:02:35

good bellwethers for whatever the like

1:02:37

the new crazy theories is

1:02:39

pc from that's from the right

1:02:42

on why we shouldn't do anything

1:02:44

about climate and i saw them starting

1:02:46

to tweet stuff about i'm

1:02:48

covered regulations being an infringement

1:02:51

on personal freedom and all of this stuff

1:02:53

and it reminded me so much of lakes

1:02:55

there's all this documentation of how much the fossil

1:02:57

fuel industry was freaking out at

1:02:59

the end of world war two

1:03:02

mike they were just like oh my god

1:03:04

you know people gotten used to the government

1:03:07

being involved in setting prices my

1:03:09

great you know assists been

1:03:11

involved in markets and and been of the

1:03:14

government's and a good job is actually taking care

1:03:16

of people and what are we gonna do all

1:03:18

hands on deck we have to like make

1:03:20

sure to remind people that capitalism

1:03:23

and the free market system is the most

1:03:25

important saying does the thing

1:03:27

that makes us american it is the thing

1:03:29

that makes us free and it's like same

1:03:32

messaging came up in all the code itself

1:03:35

and now you see it in all of this

1:03:37

you know added discussion

1:03:39

about fossil fuels with respect her

1:03:42

to russia and you know american

1:03:45

independence and national security

1:03:47

and all this stuff it's like the thing

1:03:49

that they go back to over and over

1:03:51

and over again am and

1:03:54

it feels really hard to see as

1:03:57

he said

1:03:58

yeah but it to go back

1:03:59

the coming year to theme we've been talking with

1:04:02

to read this conversation insight you know it's also

1:04:04

the case that

1:04:06

the energy past year is like much

1:04:08

cindy much deeper in europe and in the u s

1:04:10

way and i and even those countries

1:04:13

which again you know like of ethnic

1:04:15

basis we like to quote unquote identify

1:04:17

with and much a cultural basis we're

1:04:19

like color good affinities for like even

1:04:21

then were like one night and that interested

1:04:24

in that store is a message

1:04:25

nobody at all

1:04:27

yeah our gas

1:04:29

prices now are like way to get

1:04:31

peons pay air like less then what european

1:04:33

stay at the pump normally and

1:04:36

were like wow six dollars

1:04:38

you know it's like it's

1:04:40

like understand that like that part of that is because

1:04:43

so many people are living are living tight

1:04:46

financial certain for is that

1:04:48

a couple more dollars a gallon is a very meaningful

1:04:50

difference and it's killing it's making the price

1:04:52

the groceries go up and all of those kinds of things

1:04:54

but yeah we're not know in his legs those

1:04:57

poor germans female vocals

1:04:59

, yeah i said before he likes you fell

1:05:02

as at so climate change is definitely going to

1:05:04

bring more pandemic yeah

1:05:06

we've been talking a lie about how this pen to

1:05:08

make influence climate change other like

1:05:11

the permafrost is polygon melt

1:05:14

melt lot about this i shoot that broke pretty

1:05:16

recently feel like we're always hearing about some i see

1:05:18

breaking off in the arctic do

1:05:20

we thought we'd learn anything

1:05:23

the went for it well

1:05:25

i'm coming out the pandemic

1:05:29

the are quote unquote coming out of cinematic

1:05:32

more discouraged it then i certainly

1:05:34

wasn't the beginning but i'm trying

1:05:36

to remember those feelings of

1:05:39

measured how could i had

1:05:42

raided the outset thinking wow

1:05:46

he two sons will soon

1:05:49

for so long were unmovable show

1:05:51

themselves actually to be playing

1:05:54

football and quite nimble love

1:05:57

we also learned what it takes to move

1:05:59

them

1:05:59

and what motivates that movement and

1:06:02

it doesn't necessarily on a person's way

1:06:05

but the climate agenda i think it

1:06:07

is on some level still

1:06:09

though

1:06:11

while keeping a much as we

1:06:14

the well in despair on how

1:06:16

much worse our global management of

1:06:18

a pandemic wouldn't ,

1:06:20

a was them than it might have them and

1:06:22

you know the

1:06:25

one lot one point of one one other point i would

1:06:27

add about that was just that you know the vaccines

1:06:29

are really pretty incredible just as like

1:06:31

a technological innovation and

1:06:35

they also show us is not just the innovation

1:06:38

that's important it's also the rollout i'm

1:06:41

you know that to provisions to support that

1:06:43

you know all that stuff but

1:06:45

you're a few years ago i might as thought

1:06:48

that one challenge

1:06:50

we had and and trying to deal with climate change

1:06:53

was just how on stalled

1:06:56

a lot of our

1:06:57

author and source of innovation

1:06:59

seem to be on i do think

1:07:01

that there's that way of looking at what's happened

1:07:04

and thinking at least in some sectors

1:07:06

there's like a lot going on and you know

1:07:08

and biotech is

1:07:10

they they're doing a lot of incredible things

1:07:12

and dmr in a vaccines really

1:07:15

didn't have enough on the horizon smoking

1:07:18

for cancer and tons of other stuff setting

1:07:20

aside if it's a sort of a mixed blessing

1:07:23

but eighty eight in a woman

1:07:25

child

1:07:26

it it all in in my com to sort

1:07:28

of

1:07:29

the law conclusion a thing all sebastian

1:07:31

is the thing i said it was today was

1:07:33

just you know we had the chance

1:07:35

to protect the world instead

1:07:38

we only changed to protect ourselves oh

1:07:42

the facing

1:07:44

them

1:07:45

a damage

1:07:48

yeah was in climate change in

1:07:50

i was a recipe for disaster and

1:07:53

immoral indictment of and one his

1:07:56

for spell to push for more

1:07:58

i'll say that i think that you

1:08:00

know they have a lot to say this dispiriting but

1:08:02

i'll try to leave with the one good thing that

1:08:04

comes out and of a visit at it we realize

1:08:06

the importance of community i don't think everybody's

1:08:08

doing the right things with their need for community

1:08:11

coming out you know some people out here building

1:08:13

up malicious

1:08:15

no

1:08:18

but the rest

1:08:19

it could do better things with the need for community

1:08:22

like we understand how important it is and

1:08:24

that is one of the most important things for

1:08:26

us coping with climate change and

1:08:29

and actually doing something

1:08:31

about it is under adding that we need

1:08:33

each other

1:08:34

anna about you i mean

1:08:36

same he took my community point yes

1:08:38

totally same same that's

1:08:40

the one thing that i'm like well i did actually

1:08:43

see just

1:08:44

my own theory small

1:08:47

part of the world's are people

1:08:49

actually helping each other out in

1:08:52

a in a sort of person to person

1:08:53

the way that i haven't actually seen in my

1:08:57

life in the us

1:08:59

that gave me a tiny bit as an

1:09:02

you know

1:09:03

and of okay well

1:09:04

maybe people are are starting to forget that

1:09:07

it's also like the only kind of climate wins i've

1:09:09

seen recently are in our and like

1:09:11

an uncle community and

1:09:13

as ways so i think

1:09:15

i think that i'm o n actually

1:09:18

i thought of another thing when you're talking about

1:09:20

the nature south and how for a for a brief

1:09:22

moment people did tiny get this window into

1:09:25

how much we are sort of

1:09:27

the know aggressively dominating

1:09:29

nature all the time i have seen a shift

1:09:31

in the climate movement away from

1:09:34

am the idea that it is

1:09:36

silly or naive the i

1:09:38

know know like salmon and

1:09:40

in some some areas cm

1:09:43

care about nature i think that that was like

1:09:45

a real over correction in the

1:09:47

climate space and

1:09:49

says you know i there was a definite need

1:09:51

to focus move away

1:09:53

from polar bears some people but

1:09:55

i think there's been

1:09:56

a bit of an over correction in

1:09:59

in recent years

1:09:59

yeah like fuck nature and i don't

1:10:02

think that's healthy either so i cilic we his

1:10:04

maybe

1:10:05

com a bit healthier about i

1:10:07

really subsidies are so

1:10:10

a user amy are no longer an ego modernist

1:10:12

various and the yes i oh hi my

1:10:15

name from an ego modernists manifesto

1:10:17

yeah

1:10:20

oh well i actually have one more thing

1:10:23

and that is i think it became a lot

1:10:25

more normal to be alarmed about

1:10:27

says you know like before it

1:10:29

was like if you freaked out in public you

1:10:31

were considered hysterical you're considered

1:10:33

an alarm is like david you've dealt with that

1:10:35

when you publish uninhabitable earth

1:10:38

and now it's kind of light yeah know

1:10:40

maybe we should be scared of scary thing that

1:10:42

jenny beth

1:10:44

healthy true

1:10:46

it is healthy although i do i i

1:10:48

share

1:10:48

david your concern

1:10:51

that we , see a lot

1:10:53

a great social stuff coming out of

1:10:55

the the

1:10:57

i was you know my ice i see both

1:10:59

it's like oh i think would you rather thing about thing

1:11:03

i mean that's all there to i'm

1:11:06

is just really messy i think it's

1:11:08

just a matter like impose

1:11:10

another lesson on on this makes a high

1:11:13

high pile of lessons were like them

1:11:15

during your and the and but like you

1:11:17

know

1:11:18

we have a tendency to really think about lot

1:11:20

of these challenges in really

1:11:23

riskier really misleading the binary

1:11:25

way so we think like

1:11:27

when it comes to climate

1:11:29

either in an overly apocalyptic ways

1:11:31

are in overly a pollyanna ways and

1:11:33

with you know with with a pandemic it's like are

1:11:36

we going overboard or and we need

1:11:38

to be way more risk and we're

1:11:41

living because of so much disruption and

1:11:43

mismanagement and social disorder

1:11:45

we're living we're living world of complications

1:11:48

and uncertainty ends in

1:11:50

that messy model and

1:11:52

i don't see a very good path

1:11:55

through that but i also don't look at

1:11:57

the pandemic or about or climate these

1:11:59

days and thing the

1:12:01

way of total disaster i see a messy story

1:12:03

in which there's a lot of good and a lot of encouraging

1:12:06

stuff going on to is just you know in

1:12:08

know in cases not sufficient

1:12:11

to overcome on the negative forces

1:12:13

understand yet thread

1:12:15

yeah

1:12:16

yeah awesome , a we will will

1:12:19

about my colleague i have i

1:12:22

, saying oh my god is really pleasure

1:12:24

i hope we get to catch up again soon so thanks

1:12:27

against enemy and and

1:12:28

like with the new game we were excited

1:12:31

read your society where much of a mobius

1:12:33

thinking of you as an advocate , success

1:12:36

that ain't easy

1:12:40

had hate is a cricket media production

1:12:43

it's produced by race hang and mix them

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edited by jews friendly her

1:12:47

music is by bacillus for topless

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somali could a car is are consulting

1:12:52

producer and are executive producers or

1:12:54

marry an a's hagler of michael martinez

1:12:56

and me in us rebels special

1:12:58

thanks to sandy gerard are a short

1:13:01

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1:13:03

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1:13:06

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