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hey,

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it's cena radio this is

1:15

john with the next

1:17

in our summer many season of rebroadcast,

1:19

a few of my favorite

1:21

things this episode

1:24

was in my plans for this summer but

1:26

i juggled the order and moved it up a couple

1:28

of weeks given the supreme

1:30

court actually i'm thinking

1:32

of to big news stories here in twenty

1:35

twenty two some

1:37

might say it's odd these

1:39

, things in the same sentence one

1:41

is so much more substantive than

1:44

the other other hear me hear

1:47

first yes the us supreme court

1:49

and it's hard right majority strikes

1:51

down roe v wade after almost fifty

1:54

years instantly making

1:56

most abortions illegal in illegal bunch

1:58

of states with

1:59

hands expected soon and roughly half

2:02

the states the ,

2:04

dobbs v jackson women's health

2:06

organizations now takes it's

2:08

place in history igniting

2:10

an awful new chapter in the struggle

2:13

over abortion rights and

2:16

the other story other johnny depp

2:18

amber heard trial yes

2:20

it was a fight between celebrities the got

2:22

way more than it's share of attention but

2:25

, a cultural nor shock test

2:28

test trial the deeply

2:30

, now most

2:32

feminists and i'd like to include

2:34

myself in that camp were disturbed

2:37

is not shocked by the verdict the

2:40

jury declared that amber heard did

2:42

the same her ex husband by describing

2:44

herself describing a newspaper op ed as

2:47

in a figure representing domestic

2:49

abuse

2:51

but just as striking as the verdict

2:53

was the title wave of public support

2:55

for johnny depp a household

2:57

name actor dude and

2:59

on the other hand what's been called been called

3:02

of hatred for amber heard it

3:05

seems just about every one from dismayed

3:07

feminists to reactionaries

3:09

and in cells the

3:11

public reaction to the trial as a gleeful

3:14

backlash against the me too movement

3:17

so , there a message that unites these

3:19

two stories dobbs be jackson

3:22

and depth be heard heard

3:24

loss two ways you could express it but here's but

3:27

get back in your place women

3:29

your america and people

3:32

who america get pregnant know

3:34

you are not fully free to

3:36

make choices about your own body

3:39

or to call out your abuser

3:43

to put it more bluntly down

3:45

, girl girl

3:47

the logic of massaging he is the title

3:49

of an acclaimed twenty seventeen book by

3:51

the feminist philosopher kate philosopher

3:54

in that book doctor mann coined the word

3:56

that serves as the title of this episode

3:59

this was episode seven of our

4:01

season three series man from

4:04

twenty eighteen series

4:06

where we explored the history and

4:08

function of patriarchy there's

4:11

that episode him pussy the

4:14

content warning the story includes

4:16

the description of a sexual assault

4:19

matthew and i

4:21

met and or a senior

4:23

year of high school and

4:26

, she was just

4:29

a fairly sir frank kind of guy

4:31

he was he had this amazing sense

4:33

of humor we his off right away became

4:36

best buds this , williams

4:39

he's thirty eight she lives in los angeles

4:41

with her husband and two year old son she

4:44

has a story to tell about her former friend

4:46

matthew

4:47

the story begins in the late nineteen

4:49

nineties lila really really close

4:52

and

4:53

have happened and times am

4:55

an allied seals to my romantic

4:57

feelings on his side that

5:00

i didn't necessarily reciprocates

5:03

and dot put a strain on our

5:05

friendship but we continued on

5:08

eventually janey says matthew gave

5:10

her an ultimatum if she wouldn't

5:13

date him he would end the friendship

5:15

and i foolishly

5:18

agreed , enter a lease and said

5:20

palm and are those terms as twenty and

5:23

i just didn't want to let him go they

5:26

i cared for him i love them as

5:28

a friend so we

5:31

did that for a couple months and it didn't work

5:33

out

5:36

he a

5:38

brilliant and not take a break up laugh

5:40

at all he really lost at sea

5:45

the started acting really crazy

5:48

kind of being abusive to me with

5:50

words and sometimes even fight

5:52

, altercations as well well

5:56

water in my face but

5:58

hard or they are right

6:00

syncing me too harsh or

6:03

, it nothing like chino

6:06

extreme violence but this

6:08

is weird little reminder

6:11

that he was angry

6:13

the worst was yet to com that

6:15

he would eventually punished

6:17

any much more severely for her crime

6:20

i broke up i

6:23

didn't reciprocate says romantic

6:26

feelings

6:27

this isn't just another story about a dangerous

6:29

massage and stick man we're about

6:32

sexual violence and how it goes down

6:35

it's really about what happens afterwards during

6:38

that you might think ah ok it's another

6:40

story about the system police

6:42

and courts employers in the media

6:45

and how they disbelieve and blame women

6:47

for the things men do to them the

6:50

know jamie story isn't about that either

6:53

her story never got to the system genie

6:55

became intensely into

6:57

the in what happened with the people closest

6:59

to her her best friend the

7:01

when her mother he decided

7:03

to explore that almost as an investor

7:06

reporter what what they remember

7:08

and how they responded with didn't

7:11

when cheney told them what mack you've done

7:13

to her

7:16

the center for documentary studies at duke

7:18

university and pr x it's

7:20

seen on radio parts seven

7:23

of our series men we're

7:25

taking a season long look at sexism

7:27

massage ni how patriarchy

7:29

really works and how we can all

7:31

get better at seeing it though we

7:33

can take it apart

7:36

and i'm blessed headley this time

7:39

janey story and the phenomenon

7:41

that the philosopher keep man dubbed sympathy

7:44

the kind of sympathy that's applied exclusively

7:47

to males not to mention him

7:50

puny the striking is

7:52

damaging and downright weird

7:54

habit in our culture of letting men

7:56

off the hook for the awful things

7:58

they do even

7:59

serious crimes especially

8:03

if they do those things to women as

8:05

will hear empathy is not just something

8:07

men do caveman argues

8:10

it's deeply embedded habit of

8:12

mind when , seems so natural

8:14

for many of us all genders and

8:16

we don't even know we're doing it we

8:19

need to see the habit before we can break it

8:21

so let's start with johnny williams and

8:23

what happened to her sixteen years ago

8:25

so it's important to understand that genie

8:28

and mass you were part of a tight group

8:30

of friends young adults knocking

8:32

around l a genius best friends

8:35

were also if you is good friends

8:37

seen his mother was friends with matthews

8:39

mother remember that

8:41

so what happened two thousand

8:43

and three about two years after they dated

8:46

briefly and janey broke up with matthew

8:48

she's been away at college but now she's back

8:51

and they still see each other sometimes when

8:53

they're gang of friends get together these

8:56

friends would later say that mass you was still

8:58

obsessed with cheney in two thousand three

9:01

johnny's words he was still making it clear

9:04

he was heartbroken

9:06

he had been asking

9:08

really is that where were

9:10

scared

9:10

the an unhealthy leading

9:12

up to that night and

9:14

then

9:18

we went our way as a couple sensor

9:20

bar

9:23

man drink

9:26

i drank had change immediately

9:29

felt sick went to the

9:31

bathroom and threw up violently

9:35

and then when i came out

9:37

he lives there i'm afraid

9:39

to take me back to his face which is where

9:42

i had pets pink higher they'd

9:44

come together so we

9:46

, back and he helped me

9:48

to lie down on the couch i'm

9:52

i didn't notice that

9:53

he

9:55

when he seen back and

9:57

forth in the living room which was

9:59

striking

9:59

i'm

10:02

and i that plant lives

10:05

conscious but a woozy

10:08

i'm like not in control

10:10

like not my body was week

10:14

not fully functional at

10:16

some point he said i should get some rest

10:18

and his bed and help me

10:20

get there and then

10:22

he less around

10:25

then he returns

10:27

and he proceeded to

10:30

sexually must me he

10:33

took off my clothes and

10:38

mouse tongue and singers

10:41

were emmy last and

10:44

laos was saying that he was saying

10:46

the will never be fans over

10:49

and over again he just

10:51

repeating that and

10:53

i was saying no and

10:55

starts them

10:58

over and over again

11:01

and he kept on

11:05

point i was able to

11:07

regain and thus cancel my bonnie to

11:11

push my way up that

11:13

last go to the door a

11:16

member he's follow me and

11:18

said no wait i'm so sorry

11:20

i'm don't go and

11:23

i said no that's

11:25

really fucked up and

11:28

i am

11:29

the teen also door and my

11:31

car

11:33

it will take years

11:34

lots of therapy for genie

11:36

to fully grasp the impact

11:38

of matthews attack on her that's not

11:40

unusual for people who face traumas regardless

11:43

of gender so at first

11:46

she didn't tell anyone what he'd done not

11:48

the police not anyone that

11:51

would have made it we'll see at

11:54

the same time she didn't wanna see

11:56

his face

11:58

that would another wish he did

11:59

not respect and impacts the

12:02

night after the assaults

12:04

he came to where he knew i would be

12:07

and money

12:09

the him there

12:12

they went for him and holding

12:14

a lease and he smiled

12:17

the had no he leaves

12:21

it was clear to me at that point that

12:24

he lives exciting power the

12:26

city that miles and that i

12:28

didn't really have another actually aside that

12:32

i had week so

12:34

i that i less

12:35

in fact janey soon left

12:37

los angeles she moved to san francisco

12:40

them to columbia than to germany the

12:43

stayed away most of the time for about ten

12:45

years she says she couldn't

12:47

see a place for herself in herself hometown

12:50

not after what mass you had done and

12:52

given that her friends were his friends

12:55

the first few years she wasn't prepared

12:57

to tell anyone what he'd done why

12:59

not this question comes up

13:01

again and again when women accused man

13:04

of sexual assault years after the

13:06

fact yeah we seem to understand

13:08

why it can take decades for a man to

13:10

accuse someone like a teacher or

13:12

priest who abused them but

13:14

not why women don't immediately

13:16

report sexual assault so why

13:18

don't women talk about it that li that their friends

13:21

and sam

13:21

right away

13:23

before we get everything that's coming in this

13:25

story genie wants you to understand

13:27

this besides just

13:29

not wanting to face but she'd gone through and

13:32

hoping it would go away

13:34

he says

13:35

she also had an impulse to protect

13:37

him

13:39

despite what matthew had done to her she

13:41

didn't want him hurt i

13:44

cared for matthew she had an

13:46

kind of a lonely person before

13:49

i'd , him into this group of fans i knew

13:51

how important they were to him they were to me

13:53

as well we were really kinda

13:56

like

13:56

am i

13:57

then i didn't want to take that away from him

13:59

the

13:59

i didn't want

14:00

because this and

14:06

then on another level

14:08

i really somewhere inside of

14:10

me inside knew that i told

14:12

my friends what

14:14

he dead

14:15

he wouldn't listen

14:17

that's a weird kind of excuse

14:20

his behavior neuer

14:23

what i said or find some way to justify

14:25

it and then i

14:27

would end up losing them the

14:29

really painful

14:31

the

14:35

there's i'm okay

14:38

knocked unconscious knowledge that

14:42

think we all have the

14:45

as women about how

14:50

how the rules were

14:52

and the rules

14:55

has then that there

14:57

are no effect yeah

15:00

the any hunch about the rules

15:03

would be confirmed she moved back

15:05

to l a and two thousand and six and the next

15:07

year she works at the courage and told a few

15:09

of her closest friends what matthew had

15:12

done that he molested her that

15:14

night in two thousand and three and probably

15:16

drugs or first probably put

15:18

a roofie a date rape drug in that drink he

15:20

gave her the she could never be absolutely

15:23

sure about that the friend listened

15:26

they expressed concern and embassy they

15:28

did not consent matthew their friendships

15:31

with him were unaffected oh

15:33

cheney left again went on

15:35

with her life

15:36

the

15:38

then twenty twelve back in l a

15:40

again she , stronger

15:42

and newly frustrated with the lack

15:44

of accountability matthew had faced so

15:47

she wrote the story of that night in two thousand

15:49

three in detail posted

15:52

it on facebook the named

15:54

mathew and tagged all of her

15:56

friends women and men who knew

15:58

him

15:59

the my closest friends

16:03

now

16:04

have a response

16:07

they didn't respond to me they didn't reach

16:09

out to me or i'll

16:11

respond in any way safer sam to

16:13

me and aim

16:16

the later found out that they

16:18

did reach out to messier

16:19

and of them

16:21

i'm to mixer he was okay

16:24

and to ask him how he felt

16:26

about but

16:31

one of my close friends even

16:34

i heard him that she was sells his fact

16:37

few years after that and twenty

16:40

fifteen twenty was talking with one

16:42

of her good friends nicole matthews

16:44

name came up janey a loo the to the

16:46

fact that he'd sexually molested her

16:48

all those years before a fact janey

16:50

had disclosed nicole more than

16:52

one

16:52

in a direct conversation into

16:55

seven and then in that facebook post

16:57

five years later and she says

17:00

yeah well but he's in million do anything

17:02

did he

17:05

the

17:07

it blew me away

17:13

this was all before our current me

17:15

to moment broke open but

17:18

janey was convinced there was something important

17:20

going on where did mean

17:22

that her friends just seemed unwilling

17:25

or unable to say switch he was telling

17:27

them that , of their friends had

17:29

done something inexcusable something

17:31

criminal to another good friend

17:34

friend only were they not shunning matthew

17:37

they hadn't even really challenged him about what

17:39

he'd done the was going

17:41

on

17:42

i had this idea

17:44

to ask them to ask

17:47

all then and i thought well maybe

17:49

their answers will

17:51

mean mars a ,

17:53

have implications

17:55

are more than just my story may lead to

17:58

other people wanna hear this so am

18:00

i gonna really dinky sony

18:04

they require there's like fifty bucks

18:06

a no idea what no was doing and doing just i

18:08

asked them and i recorded they

18:11

had to say

18:12

janey recorded many hours of her

18:14

conversations with her friends and with her mother

18:17

janey takes it from here

18:19

the small sample of those interviews then we'll

18:21

here eight man and talk more

18:23

on the backside because

18:25

i feel like honestly ginny if i remember

18:27

you telling me that this is nicole one

18:29

of my very best friends my

18:32

answer i was asking her about

18:34

the first time i told her the story

18:36

in two thousand and seven monsieur memory

18:39

when you

18:39

i think we're very unsure of the whole

18:41

situation in the first place why wouldn't

18:43

answer of what happened i was

18:46

i was not sure

18:48

that i had been received because there's no way to

18:51

pre med yeah what

18:53

i was threat of was the facts

18:55

and the facts were that we went

18:57

to the scar together him he got him

18:59

and train through a drink the dream

19:02

i go over the story

19:03

can

19:04

details of what happened that night

19:07

there we go back to discussing when i told

19:09

her in two thousand and seven saving

19:11

it possible that what

19:13

i told you

19:15

the humor me for her

19:17

don't think it's possible

19:20

that i didn't tell you that him

19:22

a semi princess story wouldn't make

19:24

any sense i mean

19:26

probably hasn't already that you did say more

19:28

efficient i don't you definitely didn't say

19:31

like what exactly back in

19:33

silence yes

19:34

i think i said he molested me

19:36

and is why and producer the funny i think

19:39

it's a he molested me while

19:41

saying

19:41

the over and over again we will never

19:43

be friends

19:44

yeah i can say i don't remember

19:47

that part but yeah i can definitely

19:49

they are you saying i'm and that's

19:51

probably like the molestation part of

19:53

it is why it is if he in general

19:55

in feel like so

19:56

your mind

19:57

like well what does that really mean and

20:00

no for about she didn't elaborate on what

20:02

that man

20:03

polygon and yeah polly's and i don't blame

20:06

you one a car detailer lot

20:08

outside the us ah

20:11

i thought now station that

20:14

thing or dull and for

20:16

sure he does so

20:19

so you eating as possible that as muscle

20:22

that that for sir john ah

20:24

john feel like it was like mean i don't know

20:26

as

20:28

yeah

20:29

the way it was towards mean she'll

20:32

also likes to sit as you are unsure about

20:34

a lot of things i feel like maybe that's why

20:36

i was like or maybe she's

20:38

not survive after patreon to that

20:40

he was roofie like what i learned

20:42

and i was completely sir of

20:44

everything i just saw the oh yes i

20:47

think i can i can never be

20:49

one hundred percent sure that she actually

20:51

was the one his

20:52

i'm in my dream of choirs yeah

20:54

for our however he does

20:56

it does look at the away quarters

21:00

nicole remembered and se

21:02

on was a part of my story

21:04

i wasn't sure about they're

21:06

massive had done to me she

21:08

clung to that ambiguity and

21:10

extended that down to the part of the story

21:13

i was or about the

21:15

details of the sexual assault

21:17

stocking and abuse a

21:20

friend anthony who is also that senseless

21:22

matthew that my facebook post

21:25

because he struggled to square the story i told

21:27

him with what he's hurt and assert conversation

21:29

with matthew

21:31

think that he basically felt

21:33

dad you felt

21:35

something happen said the here so

21:40

like i guess you felt that there is a the

21:42

transportation of the situation was

21:46

glad i could have where his his motivator

21:48

like where he was coming from for say i think he

21:50

felt like maybe misunderstood about

21:52

and i wonder

21:54

the you

21:55

what i was

21:57

true

21:59

i

21:59

the

22:01

i believed

22:03

that

22:06

you certainly had

22:09

every right to believe what you believe based

22:11

on the all the facts you rely on the table the

22:14

one thing that i guess that i will always

22:16

was little certain

22:19

about is just the sort

22:21

of intentional shrugging

22:25

i guess that was always the one saying

22:27

that like was like i said i don't know

22:29

like that's a tough one for me

22:31

notice of how my friends when

22:33

the give mass is a benefit of the doubt

22:36

thera worked and to believe she could do something

22:38

terrible to me i

22:40

didn't say it than that i was thinking and

22:43

only says no me the know i

22:45

would never lie that you often

22:47

know mafia they do

22:50

all my senses scene of an accent many

22:52

accent

22:52

have you is outta control

22:55

pledged to shrunk outta control

22:57

getting naked us you know

22:59

doing inappropriate saying is

23:02

creepy and wilde sale has

23:04

no filter

23:05

there were no boundaries a little

23:07

sleazy always

23:10

i think i'm only as he a bike

23:12

what sitting on a table pull

23:14

his pants down and was like sitting

23:16

on the table is something you , she

23:18

grabbed me and my my

23:20

have his lips on my ear on the he

23:23

i would seem to the to are people here

23:25

despite here from

23:27

back home title from

23:30

time with a girl that he might have just met

23:32

her so i had a coworker

23:35

who works with matthew arm

23:37

and he basically coworker sexy harasses like

23:39

basically employers that

23:41

and and her friends of mine my roommate

23:43

did else used to have him in the house anymore

23:46

after

23:46

groped her and those situations

23:48

like that but he constantly overstepped

23:51

their boundaries

23:52

you know and we'd have a term for a suicide

23:54

okay mattress can creepy laptop

23:57

and i was constantly offering

23:59

he said

24:01

like determined obliviousness

24:10

so this is the person my friends

24:12

had such a hard time believing could do

24:14

what he did to me the

24:16

outside looking in and my team

24:18

and possible make no sense at

24:20

all

24:21

that i wanna die then to had understand

24:23

why

24:24

how so many people

24:26

turned a blind eye to at all

24:33

we'll hear more of jamie's conversations

24:35

in a minute the left

24:37

it seems important to think about why

24:39

jamie's friends were reluctant to

24:41

confront matthew once they'd

24:43

heard what he did cheney for

24:46

for that matter why did they put

24:48

up with all this over the top creepiness

24:50

that we've just heard them described

24:52

the very beginning i mean in many cases that

24:54

make headlines like the ones we're seeing with the me

24:56

too movement the people who failed

24:59

to hold med accountable do so because

25:01

there's something they believe they're getting from

25:03

this man right something important a t v

25:05

or radio network that list the guy

25:07

run roughshod over the women he's working with

25:09

because he gets good ratings

25:11

or the ceo who is seen

25:14

as irreplaceable by the board

25:16

and the shareholders still they're making

25:18

money that's not really

25:20

the case with matthew because the stakes

25:22

aren't that hannibal are not

25:24

that big so why would

25:26

people met this guy off the hook

25:28

i ask you need to reflect on that and

25:30

she says a relationship with matthew was

25:33

hard to give up

25:34

lot of what the interviewees sad

25:36

my friends said that they

25:39

seek centers made them wow

25:42

inexperienced the world and a different way

25:45

to really be at the interesting and

25:47

be the last of the party he

25:50

, also really really funny and

25:53

and new all the cool

25:55

thing to do in town and will make

25:57

sure everyone was getting everyone board to don't do

25:59

those things

25:59

he was fun to be friends with

26:02

it was hundred be friends with him

26:05

jennifer the other thing that came through

26:07

from her friends was that confronting mass

26:09

you as a sexual predator really confronting

26:12

him would have just been

26:15

heart awkward

26:16

people didn't know how to do that

26:18

no

26:19

they want kids who that he didn't want

26:21

that kind of

26:21

the quickness and drama and

26:24

their lives and you need to just

26:26

keep eating food

26:42

okay so let's get back to genie will

26:45

listen in now on a couple longer

26:47

that's some some especially revealing

26:50

conversations that she recorded

26:52

part of a conversation i had with my friend

26:54

veronica they were talking about

26:56

the first time and told her a few

26:58

years before that maximalist

27:01

to me her her birthday

27:03

that year she was getting a bunch of people

27:05

together at hollywood bowl i

27:07

told her i wasn't going is matthew was

27:10

going to be there the right thing

27:12

going to therapy and had fully come to grips

27:14

with what he did to me the

27:16

for the first time i told her correctly

27:19

what happened i believe they're

27:22

now there was no doubt then he

27:24

when new than you

27:28

feel like knowing that

27:30

that have been put you in

27:32

a difficult for this and i definitely

27:35

think about point you were going through a lot and you

27:37

displeasing and said

27:39

you you didn't put ultimatum

27:43

he put an ultimatum that night

27:45

sag you're

27:48

gonna hang out with me my

27:51

son who now with him

27:54

and it was really hot in an angelic you know we're planning

27:56

the hollywood bowl thing and

27:59

ten years just like

27:59

whatever when you do now

28:02

as i do this and by do do they do not

28:05

image is awkward in that sense

28:07

of like

28:08

the you do with this information now

28:10

what is so

28:12

when i went to go without me know what

28:14

it

28:14

they ever notice anything

28:17

that i say something

28:23

what happened with the hollywood bowl

28:25

did you know isn't

28:28

that i don't know

28:30

go

28:35

reading wouldn't imagine i would have thought

28:37

about that horrible

28:39

you are you're the year sharing

28:41

the news that this guy is a monster

28:43

pretty much

28:45

you see it on as an isolated

28:48

and

28:51

the point where you go to

28:54

set everything in his eye but it wasn't about

28:56

taking sides and now the don't see that

28:58

way no a second five

29:01

inches eight years of bomb of information

29:04

was it happen to you

29:08

you know you like we're all see

29:10

how funny the he is sexy making

29:12

an effort to not be excluded whatsoever

29:14

it wasn't the people morning quoting him

29:17

for within like that images he

29:19

made the effort to like not be

29:21

excluded in our be a pariah

29:23

you hurt you or

29:26

decide i can't be near

29:28

him or even see him so

29:30

i'm gonna remove myself completely from the situation

29:34

in over

29:34

robbing people start talking to you you and

29:36

i kept talking even i kept hanging out

29:38

outside of attitude

29:39

soon

29:42

nah we're still being invited

29:44

or what's the source

29:47

of doing everything

29:48

though he was thought the center

29:50

of the social girl you have to

29:53

understand if is very awkward for everybody

29:55

this is something the her

29:56

happy and then visit

29:58

then bombs dropped

29:59

you're right this is what happens and your dislike

30:02

fuck

30:03

okay like the someone man

30:05

is considered a friend important social groups

30:08

as to this fucking weirdo

30:10

enter the fake what

30:12

do you do is information and then you

30:14

leave

30:16

if it vivid never avoiding

30:19

it was never like oh he's here i'm leaving

30:21

so case of math he shows up i can't

30:23

be right going up to him a public and say you're fucking

30:25

rebates to people but i

30:28

i'm just gonna say that will that the dryer why

30:30

not because you're not hearing

30:31

the war

30:39

the one to curtail you're

30:42

gonna lie all because he had already

30:44

bought a ticket and produces like i'm the boss

30:46

so what are they are you wonder why so many

30:49

i say in that is no longer

30:51

minded because he's a rapist he's

30:54

share that information unless you have told

30:56

everybody about it is sad news and

30:58

information was information mind to spread on not

31:01

like that like don't like gossiping

31:03

that point is is like what do i do

31:06

other than one useless

31:07

you know like i can't avoid

31:09

you because we've been

31:10

hey

31:13

the lovey dovey dhabi friends you know

31:15

just like in the minute you get offered with me i

31:18

smack , that's all

31:21

i could have done episode

31:28

now you're wrong about why

31:31

draft and delayed due for ages hoping

31:33

to understand

31:36

the height of theory accent

31:39

now i

31:42

don't have a hunter and i don't

31:44

have a and i

31:46

can kansas city kansas

31:50

my best friends and we're still hanging

31:52

out

31:53

when the president who does that to me knowing

31:55

it

31:56

i had no please share because effect

32:02

there's a lot going on in this conversation

32:04

with veronica that for now

32:06

that cichlids the answers the is providing

32:09

about why she reacted the way she did

32:12

what i understood or to be seamless that

32:14

it wasn't her place to say anything about

32:17

it or do anything about it it

32:19

didn't happen to her which made it not

32:21

for business and perhaps

32:23

not her problem it

32:25

would have been awkward to address and she didn't

32:27

want to create drama she's in so

32:30

comfortable talking about it with anyone because

32:32

essentially she felt it wasn't her place

32:36

i also decided to talk to my

32:38

mother the her reactions

32:41

how my coming out with what

32:44

happened insect get her this

32:46

exchange the woman she is referring to

32:49

diane

32:50

as nazis mother

32:52

then friends

32:53

the remember

32:55

when you

32:57

they'd find out about what had happened

33:00

the remember talking about and is all

33:03

business

33:04

he

33:07

the i don't remember what i said mean

33:09

i'm just like i'm sorry

33:12

obama and now

33:15

, know it can sure see

33:17

why you

33:22

mean by

33:24

, time i was not doing

33:29

building her cause serious

33:32

, talk to her after that

33:35

i know always still talking to or

33:38

the ice i

33:40

thought

33:43

every time she brought up next year i

33:45

said she must wonder why i don't follow

33:47

thread

33:49

matthew to i send that

33:51

out as and as and gray is

33:53

an hour dana sam disease

33:56

because disease thought it thought it couldn't

33:59

the conversation

33:59

the weather batman vs

34:02

i wasn't it wasn't my job

34:04

to taylor that

34:07

i wasn't going to have a guy thing i learned finance

34:10

to tell her that her son assault

34:12

in london

34:14

no

34:15

like i know that it was

34:18

local grown and on his own

34:20

and they got enough problems

34:23

are no relationship

34:26

oh i'll go don't want to

34:28

be performed

34:30

oh look a lot of older

34:34

she didn't make you did

34:36

it'll get calls

34:38

she's she's on my facebook

34:41

i asked my mother what she thought when

34:44

she first learned what matthew had done to

34:46

me

34:47

he's dangerous

34:50

on

34:54

i know that and

34:56

here's the thing and i think

34:58

this goes along with you're not

35:00

calling the police

35:04

yeah what

35:07

a tortured

35:08

richard

35:10

you know i

35:13

just said he said he carried bad

35:15

as really as really really

35:17

tom wedding so in this

35:19

even in that moment

35:21

where are we so hurting

35:23

for what you went through and

35:25

so

35:26

oh great

35:27

how he

35:29

you described it manipulated

35:31

people against you and said all the classic

35:34

sayings furious angry

35:37

so relieved that you it had

35:40

something on was saying

35:41

added court

35:44

ruling maybe child

35:51

my own mother's strongest emotional

35:54

response when she learned what he had

35:56

me was extreme city

35:58

for math with you

35:59

and the thing is i get my

36:02

mother was faith a big part of the

36:04

reason i didn't tell anyone right away with

36:06

that i wanted to protect matthew

36:09

i didn't want until the little

36:10

fan

36:12

the happening with metics

36:13

on a moment

36:15

how my friends and loved ones that i was

36:17

sexually assaulted and the result

36:19

is a surge of pity

36:21

the perpetrator an

36:23

instinct to protect the perpetrator

36:26

i'm really not much thought is all about

36:29

me

36:32

we've heard a fair amount about victim

36:34

blaming and the news and on social

36:36

media and if we think

36:38

about it the way it is normally express

36:41

and say escape that no

36:43

one suggested it was my fault the assault

36:45

occurred and what i was wearing

36:48

and how much i had to change when never questioned

36:51

they i came from wonder if people were actually

36:53

blaming me in that way the

36:56

just not saying said here's

36:58

my mother

36:59

again a few had it as

37:01

experience with sexual assault

37:03

and well did you tell

37:05

anyone

37:05

oh

37:07

no i just

37:08

a myself

37:10

i was season i mean

37:13

hi

37:15

except it from a stranger to use

37:18

of his apartment he said he would stay

37:20

with somebody else

37:22

i'm always with both guys

37:25

and then we all went out to

37:26

the

37:27

there you realize he says

37:30

and by make our house i'd

37:32

at again many years since

37:34

that happened and use

37:35

well he's

37:38

the most to blame the

37:40

i was

37:44

yeah right

37:48

the ambient

37:49

a level i do i was our

37:51

stupid

37:52

if a man

37:55

who you're here and what i should have done

37:57

it's when he said i'll walk you home i should have

37:59

said

37:59

but i didn't know the way his

38:02

we've been out and eight and eight and

38:04

and the and

38:05

mom

38:08

there is nothing you should

38:10

have done

38:12

the man offer you his apartment

38:16

he said he was gonna stay with us

38:18

it

38:21

you don't believe in the kindness

38:23

of strangers

38:24

we were flirting he bought me a drink

38:26

what does that matter me as apartment

38:29

where everything was and we were sitting

38:31

and then they receive a mirror

38:34

to men don't know how to kiss let me show

38:36

you an idol led him and then i said

38:38

says

38:38

really and truly there there

38:41

you know i think you should go now

38:43

and then edge

38:44

to grow from there and it was it was right

38:47

that is exactly when they have a

38:49

name

38:49

i was trying to stream and

38:52

he said no no my

38:54

nina why

38:56

i scream

39:00

terrible

39:03

sitting day

39:14

don't blame yourself

39:17

he did nothing wrong

39:21

they've been in a real alone with someone

39:23

not

39:24

another is not a

39:27

and the peace and

39:29

flirting with someone does not mean

39:31

they can repeal yeah kissing them

39:34

still does not emit mean

39:36

they're allowed to rape you

39:38

and eighteen

39:40

you're right it absolutely

39:42

you're right

39:43

it's not just you that happens

39:47

two women over and over and over again and

39:50

the fact that you were

39:52

screaming a quietly not

39:54

to wake up the neighbors the neighbors that just

39:56

shows how deeply it's

39:58

ingrained in us

40:01

i mean

40:09

you feel bad you fill the as something

40:11

there that's young

40:13

yeah i do i do

40:15

okay

40:26

i'm my

40:29

feeling about this particular

40:30

the worry seemed ,

40:32

in waves mean first

40:34

feel sorrow this

40:36

woman went through this and , there's

40:39

an of an admiration for the clinic

40:41

guts that it must have taken for her to sit down

40:43

with all these people that she loved ask

40:46

some theory costs very awkward

40:48

questions and ,

40:50

all of it and

40:52

then there's this record the that on

40:54

this isn't just cheney story right

40:56

that's why we're listening to it this is an echo generations

41:00

of stories from at least hundreds

41:02

of thousands of women i mean this story

41:06

what we mean when we use the phrase

41:08

rape culture

41:09

and rape culture for many people meaning

41:12

the social acceptance of

41:14

rape and sexual assault

41:16

there's this sense everybody thinks it's bad

41:20

but you know it's gonna happen we

41:23

don't look at other serious crimes in

41:25

that way armed robbery we're gonna gotten

41:27

get the guy and lock him up isn't

41:29

rape more serious than armed

41:31

robbery in terms of that harm that it as december

41:34

even like graffiti we

41:36

treat my seriously this kind of sense

41:38

of well courses bad but less

41:41

not rec the perpetrators life

41:43

over it i spoke with

41:45

kate man skype

41:48

professor of philosophy

41:50

at cornell university in

41:52

ithaca new york and i'm also

41:55

a writer to put it lightly

41:57

she wrote recent book that's been called brilliant

41:59

the indispensible it's called down

42:02

girl the logic of the sergeant

42:05

they never paid man coins the term

42:07

empathy the she's given

42:09

a name to this exact phenomenon

42:12

i think that janey is interrogating this

42:15

reflex to extend care and

42:17

sympathy to the mail perpetrator

42:20

often more sympathy than we give to

42:22

his female victim

42:23

you know this is just a small part of her

42:25

down girl books but kate man has

42:28

said publicly that sympathy will

42:30

be the subject of her next book because

42:32

it resonated

42:33

so loudly with so many people

42:36

especially women years

42:38

i summarize janey story for

42:40

kate man here's what she said on

42:43

com and

42:45

i mean this is what really shocked me

42:48

what got me

42:49

now the often away and said you're

42:51

told us ally as a woman that is something

42:54

also happens to you people care

42:57

and their yeah the you if ,

42:59

white guy and you

43:01

know golden boy is someone

43:03

who people like and it's

43:05

not an occasion

43:07

for opportunistic racism say

43:10

they went to a fucking thing

43:13

surprise me in least

43:15

i'm really glad that

43:17

he highlighted whiteness because race

43:19

doesn't matter here mean as it doesn't

43:22

so many things the benefits of him busy

43:25

they just don't extend to men of color in anything

43:27

like the same way that they extend to white man's

43:29

we've talked about this elsewhere in the series in fact

43:32

he can go exactly the opposite

43:34

way and allegations of sexual assault by

43:36

a black man especially against a white

43:38

woman has also meant also quick

43:41

deaths and

43:42

in our history now but when

43:44

it comes to white dude perpetrators

43:46

we've already heard other examples of empathy

43:49

and our series those cops in montgomery

43:51

who raped gertrude perkins and part

43:53

for

43:53

or in part five kelly landslide the tech

43:56

professionals her boss groups are on

43:58

a plane and then when she tells another

43:59

boss who's also a man

44:02

he brushes it off he says he likes this

44:04

guy the groper see so much

44:06

fun as if that somehow makes

44:08

it go away that that makes it not a

44:10

orton yeah we gotta keep him around where i like

44:12

him he's fun to have a beer with

44:14

so he gropes a few women

44:15

and it usually does settle it right to

44:18

often does so the question is why

44:20

empathy

44:22

and it's not hard to see why

44:24

men especially white men would extend

44:27

empathy to each other at least to have an

44:29

incentive to do that we're we're on the club

44:31

and and it's to my advantage to

44:34

let the other guy off the hook now because

44:37

that means i'll get a free pass when i needed

44:39

right but why would lots of women have

44:41

this impulse to

44:44

that's part of what janey one is now in

44:46

having these conversations with their friends

44:48

don't forget that see herself

44:50

jamie felt concerned about matthew

44:53

and wanted to protect him even though he'd

44:55

sexually molested her so

44:57

, not trying to call her friends are

44:59

some health bad friends bad people

45:02

to that trying to criticize her mother she

45:05

wanted to examine this tendency that

45:07

this in so many of us and

45:09

and somehow try to understand

45:12

it

45:12

that's exactly what caveman tries to do in

45:14

her book and she says it ,

45:17

with the fundamentally different roles

45:19

that patriarchal culture is a sign

45:21

two men and women boys and girls

45:24

girls men get to be to

45:27

do stuff

45:28

course women's traditional role is

45:30

to serve man to support and

45:32

nurture us while we go out there and

45:35

be all that we can be but you know this is

45:37

important distinction in

45:39

cape mans thinking here

45:41

the do not agree with the notion that often expressed

45:43

by many feminists that men

45:45

see women as less than fully human

45:48

rights kate doesn't agree with that

45:50

she thinks you men

45:52

yeah that women are human right

45:54

you understand mean again

45:56

you do i

45:58

think think

45:59

would you agree that most men do

46:02

well i think kate man makes really

46:04

interesting argument then

46:07

she says oh to put it in literal terms

46:09

she points out that straight man at least

46:12

wanna have sex with women second

46:14

most of us are not

46:16

so interested in sex with non human

46:18

species they're so that's evidence

46:21

at least at the literal level that that man

46:23

understand that women are human and

46:25

but you know she makes a more nuanced and i

46:27

think it it it becomes a more subtle

46:29

argument

46:31

it does off and seem that man either

46:34

don't recognize that women have the same

46:36

rich complicated mental and emotional

46:39

lives that men do or don't care a

46:41

certain way it's own

46:43

then why why would that be true

46:45

i'm so keep man says thanks

46:47

to our patriarchal culture all

46:50

i'm us men and women have

46:52

been trained to see women as a particular

46:55

kind of human guess right

46:57

a human that is here to care for you

46:59

men and boys and give stuff

47:01

to you so i think is the contrast

47:03

more hours

47:05

the screen human beings and human

47:08

givers where women are the givers

47:10

the salmon included goods like i'm

47:13

you know for years

47:15

nurture sustenance i'm

47:19

getting , for that matter

47:21

labor as an emotional kinds

47:24

as if he thought of this see

47:28

that brings us to kate mans theory of massage

47:31

me she argues it's not

47:33

hatred of women in some straightforward

47:36

simplistic way and that makes perfect

47:38

sense to me

47:39

a lot of the most massaging

47:41

mystic men also

47:43

, women and very often treat

47:45

women in their lives quite well

47:48

until those women get

47:50

out of line right cause when

47:52

they contradict they man or they start

47:55

giving the man all those salmon and

47:57

coded goods that kitten instead to

47:59

that

47:59

the things that man expects

48:02

from her at that point

48:04

the man might lash out with violence sometimes

48:07

will or otherwise what he needs to bring her back

48:09

in line that is misogyny

48:13

mans not a general

48:15

dislike of women but instead it's

48:17

she calls it the punishment arm

48:19

the enforcement arm of patriarchy

48:23

sexism is the siri the

48:25

ideology that says manner this

48:27

way and women are that way that

48:30

ideology is designed to keep people

48:32

playing their assigned gender roles

48:35

sexism stops working and

48:37

a woman gets outline massage

48:40

and he brings the punishment

48:42

the tries to smack the woman back into place

48:45

so much bring this back to the concept

48:47

of embassy because all of us

48:50

have every gender or so

48:52

deeply conditioned to see these

48:54

jan the roles as normal and natural

48:57

and good we tend

48:59

to go easy on man when they punish women

49:02

for not playing by the patriarchal

49:05

right now we might say

49:07

it's bad deck i did that thing but

49:09

that's understandable in the and considering

49:12

how that woman disappointed the poor guy

49:15

and also the man and his precious potential

49:19

that's what really matters in the and

49:21

the we're woman does what janey dead

49:24

how about a man and says wait a minute everybody

49:26

wanted to make sure math he was okay

49:29

and in the process evil he's to me

49:31

and the damage done to me

49:34

he was being assertive yeah

49:36

the police from a woman the

49:38

per herself and her pain at

49:40

the center of the stories and that is

49:42

not something that women are supposed to do not

49:44

in a patriarchal system men always

49:47

have to be at the center

49:49

every story so

49:52

cave man says that's where the backlash

49:54

comes and against a woman in janey situation

49:57

and i say backlash but that could just

50:00

the farmers indifference like

50:02

janey experience from summer friends or

50:05

criticism there's one

50:07

more moment from jays recordings

50:09

something or friend the cole said to her as

50:12

they were looking back on the ways janey had disclosed

50:14

matthews assault

50:16

i mean okay love when you posted the face

50:18

the thing i saw the facebook posts as

50:20

inappropriate to

50:21

to a public situation and

50:24

i mean i didn't really know how to react

50:26

to that

50:27

i don't feel like

50:29

i target of handled

50:31

nine a good way at that point

50:33

where i don't know how you handle something like

50:35

that

50:36

you know looking back i think my for what

50:38

is the best way

50:38

you and or something like that

50:42

the answer if you consider him pussy

50:44

and rape culture is there

50:46

is no right way

50:48

the woman will always be

50:50

criticized for the way she speaks up against

50:53

for perpetrator one

50:54

if you do it right away why didn't

50:56

she called the cops and then when she

50:58

does find that

50:59

the to speak at six month later

51:02

or even thirty years later

51:05

then she's being selfish she's creating

51:07

a mess for other people over something that happens

51:09

way too long ago to care about

51:12

yeah speeding selfish

51:14

yeah because with that very active claiming

51:16

victim status a woman is asserting

51:19

her own interests and women

51:21

just aren't supposed to do that

51:23

there's kate man again see

51:26

effectively become the villain and

51:28

he effectively the comes to victim

51:30

of his own crying

51:33

the know how twisted the some

51:35

marley for the since can get

51:38

peace fish nice antecedent

51:40

commitments to upholding his good

51:42

name is good guys that is his

51:45

reputation rather than

51:47

you know flicking inference insane

51:50

inference thought he was a good guy but

51:52

apparently not

51:58

the fetus again

51:59

the and again he's a good guy

52:02

people say brett kavanaugh louis

52:04

ck al franken and thousand

52:07

the other man accused of abusing

52:09

their power at the expense of women

52:12

he's a good guy that's

52:15

the primary fact right with something that we

52:17

all need to know

52:18

that claims just

52:20

overwhelms it overshadows everything

52:22

including literal printable

52:25

evidence that he is not

52:27

a good guy

52:28

and it overwhelms any

52:30

concern about the woman that the so

52:32

called good guy is victimized

52:35

yes she couldn't be telling the truth because he's

52:37

a good guy right and even if she is telling

52:39

the truth well he's a good guy so we shouldn't

52:41

rec is golden future just because he made

52:43

a mistake or two boys will be boys

52:45

after all

52:47

look i'm on the mother of

52:49

a son i know what it means to

52:52

the a young man in spite of is imperfections

52:54

then

52:56

his of his imperfections i understand

52:58

worrying about his future and wanting

53:01

to protect him empathy part

53:03

of it anyway comes i think from

53:05

a good place right at a place of love

53:07

state man calls it a pro social

53:09

impulse as opposed to an anti social

53:12

one the problem that

53:14

we extend this concern and empathy to

53:16

boys and men at the

53:19

expense of women and

53:21

a staff says from holding men accountable

53:23

when they do real harm

53:25

if i could change one thing about the world

53:28

well as his a lot of things that

53:30

the world that the idea that

53:33

yeah a white privilege

53:36

man says have long

53:38

disables and usually

53:40

young and golden boy the idea

53:42

that he can do no wrong really

53:45

how could change

53:47

not necessarily to punish him

53:49

to recognize what model homes

53:51

are done

53:52

no

53:55

the new house problem

53:57

thanks yeah i was cleaners the world

54:08

thanks to kate man and

54:11

to janey williams for sharing your story

54:13

with us she'd , to hear more

54:15

of her story and the conversations

54:18

with her friends check out cheney's

54:20

podcast this happened happened

54:23

wherever you wherever this

54:25

was part as seen on radio season three

54:28

men exploring three men

54:31

sexism sides if

54:33

you haven't listened to that twenty eighteen series

54:36

i'm sorry to say that it's extremely

54:38

relevant background to it's moment we're

54:40

in to in twenty twenty two

54:43

what feels like a twenty out

54:45

party for american fast paced

54:48

in nationalism tolling

54:50

brand of christianity page

54:55

music in this episode by alex western

54:57

f guinea and social galperin and

55:00

good night lucas music

55:02

, production help from joe augustine of

55:04

narrative music music

55:06

seen on radio on facebook and

55:08

twitter at seen on radio show

55:11

comes from the center for documentary studies

55:13

at duke university