0:00

Emily Ellen Anderson is an art business coach

0:02

for artists looking to build profitable , long-lasting

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, satisfying businesses that support their

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soul . Emily became a certified life coach

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after noticing that her strategy clients

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struggled to build satisfying businesses

0:13

through strategy and growth alone . Transformation

0:16

they desired so much had more to do with

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claiming what they desired in life , becoming

0:21

solid in their values , embracing life design

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and becoming a person who cultivates satisfaction

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and safety , especially during growth

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cycles . Emily , welcome

0:30

to the Scenic Route podcast . Thank

0:32

you .

0:34

I'm happy to be here .

0:36

Yeah , I'm really excited

0:38

because when we

0:41

first was planning up this conversation

0:43

, I was like , oh , I

0:45

mean , I , I'm

0:47

a graphic designer , so I dabbled

0:50

in art , let's

0:52

say it , and I had hard history , art

0:55

history , in school , but all of

0:57

that didn't come to mind . What first came to

0:59

mind was a book by Seth

1:02

Godin that he wrote a

1:04

couple of years ago . It's

1:08

called the Icarus Deception . It

1:11

talks about art , basically , and

1:14

making art , and it's quite interesting . On

1:17

the very first page he asks

1:19

the question why you make art

1:22

and he kind of says , well , because you

1:24

must make , why you make art , and he kind of says , well , because you must . It's , yeah , it's

1:27

just this dry , because you

1:29

must . And then art

1:31

is what it is to be human , yeah

1:34

. So I'm like okay

1:37

, are we all artists ? What

1:40

is your take on this ?

1:42

yeah , I do think we're all artists . I think

1:44

that , yeah

1:47

, I think we're all artists . I mean , when you think back , when a little

1:50

bit less , you know you're

1:52

less inhibited to just throw

1:55

something together . Yeah

2:12

, I do think everybody is an artist and

2:14

I think that we get .

2:17

I mean , you know , as you get older , you just get

2:19

stuck into but

2:22

what are people are going to like and

2:24

so we train

2:26

ourselves out of being artists and

2:30

becoming a conformist , totally

2:32

yep yeah , oh

2:35

, yeah , yeah , yeah , the

2:37

young about art

2:39

, even when I see what my kid , what

2:42

he puts together and it's like , yeah

2:45

sure , I would never think of

2:47

that , but hey , you're doing that

2:50

, like

2:52

, yeah , there's something to it that you're born ones

3:10

who practice their art even when they're grown up . What ? What

3:12

can people who aren't pursuing their art

3:14

, in whatever form ? That is what . What can we learn from them

3:16

?

3:17

yeah , well , I think that I

3:20

think you're right in that artists are like compelled

3:23

to make something , and

3:25

I feel

3:27

like that has to do something with like

3:30

knowing

3:32

where it's going to go

3:34

in the end , just be

3:45

willing to like kind of pull that thread and keep

3:47

following it until it

3:49

unfolds and reveals itself

3:52

. So , um

3:55

gosh , what , what everybody

3:57

can learn from artists is that what you asked

3:59

? Yeah , I think

4:01

, um , one

4:04

of the , you know , this is funny

4:06

because even artists don't notice this particular

4:09

thing , but I think everybody can learn

4:11

. It happens in anything

4:13

. Anytime . You're creating something from nothing , right

4:16

? So a job , a relationship , whatever

4:18

art um

4:28

, there's like this emotional roller coaster where it's like I'm inspired , I'm ready

4:30

, I'm gonna do it , and then there's just like this joy of acting

4:32

on it and digging in , and

4:35

then there's there might

4:37

be like a part where the

4:39

doing of it becomes really tedious , and

4:42

then you get stuck and

4:44

you're like , oh shit , now

4:47

, now , I'm stuck , and

4:49

then you like start

4:51

judging yourself or start judging your circumstances

4:53

. Oh , yes , yes all of that , the

4:55

little things in your head

4:57

, yes , and

5:00

then um , and

5:03

then you get , and you're kind of down on yourself

5:05

. And then so artists that realize

5:07

this happen usually like take

5:09

a break , right , or get some distance , and

5:12

they go do something , or they just surrender , right

5:14

. They're just like , okay , the

5:16

thing that I expected is not reality

5:18

, this isn't happening

5:20

how I thought it was going to

5:22

, it

5:28

happening how I thought it was going to , and um , and then they

5:30

leave it for a little while and become open or just

5:33

totally so exhausted from being mad

5:35

at themselves about it that they're just surrendered

5:38

a little bit and then something like comes

5:40

in right , like you read a poem , you read a , you

5:42

listen to a podcast . You're like , oh

5:45

, okay , I know how

5:48

I can continue with this , and

5:50

then , and

5:52

then you do something else and it becomes something

5:54

else . And then you , at some point , you just decide it's

5:57

complete and you're like , okay , I

5:59

didn't know that's where we were gonna go , but here we

6:01

and you can move on

6:03

with your next cycle , right

6:06

. So I think

6:08

what people can learn is like

6:10

and artists need to learn as well so they

6:12

can be aware of when they're in it but

6:15

like the creative process

6:17

is not just those times where you're inspired

6:20

and you're doing , and then it's finished . It's

6:22

the whole trajectory

6:24

right . It's the yeah and it's finished .

6:25

It's the whole trajectory right . It's the yeah and it's not just the the

6:28

oh . My god , this is so exciting , fresh

6:30

part that we all know from

6:32

projects , relationships , whatever

6:35

. But when the field , when

6:37

it kind of like gets tough or

6:40

shit hit the fan and

6:44

it's kind of like what your

6:47

true colors will show , and we kind of like show okay

6:49

, what , what are you made of ?

6:51

right or or not , and

6:53

like like maybe it's not in what you're made

6:55

of , just like what will come to you , like

6:57

what will come through you . You're

6:59

hoping , so what's next ? Or when

7:01

you give up ? Yeah , I see

7:03

everything into what you thought

7:05

it's gonna be I see .

7:07

So I'd

7:10

say , from listening to you

7:12

, what we can learn from artists is living

7:15

with the uncertainty . Yeah

7:17

, because you start something . There is

7:19

no blueprint , there is no template

7:22

you have .

7:23

You just started

7:25

from scratch , totally and

7:28

you have the blank canvas , it's and

7:30

the end like the , the feeling that it's

7:32

always working like this

7:34

part is supposed to be here . This is

7:36

the part that is working as

7:38

well . I just don't like this part as much , part

7:53

as much way through this . So I mean also then , um , a very solid level of self-trust

7:55

yeah , yeah , yeah , and not self-trust , as like I always know

7:57

the answers . But I

7:59

know that if I sit here long

8:01

enough and am

8:03

open and look for insensitive

8:07

to all the things that could come

8:09

through , then , then I

8:11

know that something's going to happen and this will

8:13

go somewhere that's

8:17

really .

8:18

Yeah , I mean that's totally like a way of life

8:20

and a way to see things . Yeah

8:22

, I thought it was interesting what

8:24

you also said , that you are very in

8:26

like invested with artists

8:29

, are very invested with what they're doing yeah

8:32

um to I mean border

8:34

obsession . But

8:36

you said there's a point

8:39

I'm kind of paraphrasing where you

8:41

kind of have to let

8:43

it go , where you have to detach when

8:46

you're stuck , especially when you're stuck

8:49

that you just have to like , okay , I

8:51

, I know , I know , but

8:53

I'm not seeing the way or the

8:55

next step it's gotta take

8:57

. So I have to step back and

9:00

like , detach from it , even though it's

9:02

my art , and see what

9:04

will . What will happen

9:07

? Will the art become something

9:09

? I

9:12

mean , art is deeply personal , I

9:14

think . Is there

9:16

a point where the art becomes

9:18

like

9:21

its own persona

9:23

?

9:24

Totally yeah , I think so and I

9:26

think , like different artists will have different

9:28

um , oh

9:30

god , I mean different artists

9:32

have different techniques and whatever .

9:34

Like I mean right part that's the game

9:36

?

9:37

yeah , I think so , and I think detaching is one

9:39

where I think some people will

9:42

like be in line with the

9:44

idea of just holding it more gently and

9:47

rather than pushing it away , but

9:50

just holding in a different way .

9:53

How can we , how can we don't

9:56

want to say non-artists , but

9:59

how can people who are not really

10:01

trained in holding

10:03

it differently , how can that look like

10:05

? Because I feel this is such a

10:07

good way of

10:10

all

10:12

aspects of life or business , whenever

10:14

you feel , oh , I need to push through

10:16

, I need to push through

10:18

with my kid , in parenting my kid

10:20

, I need to push through with my business , blah , blah

10:22

, blah , blah . How

10:25

can we hold something

10:27

more gently ? What are the things

10:29

? Are the , the shifts or

10:32

the practical tools that you recommend ?

10:36

let's see , I think that when

10:39

you're thinking about holding something gently , it's

10:42

a it's

10:46

, you're holding something

10:48

you're like okay , I thought

10:50

. I

10:52

thought that things were going to go this a

10:54

certain way and they're not right now

10:56

, and maybe

10:59

I was wrong about a lot

11:01

of things in this situation . Maybe

11:04

a lot of the , the places that I

11:06

thought we were going to go with this it's not , it

11:09

wasn't where we were ever going

11:11

to go , and so I think , like in

11:13

terms of um , holding

11:16

something more gently , you can

11:18

start to detangle

11:20

what was important

11:22

about that . So why you started

11:24

in the first place , right , why you started

11:27

in the first place , what this

11:30

kind of reminds me of , like um

11:32

, just

11:35

just like claiming your desire

11:37

or what's important to you in the first place or what your

11:39

values are . I think um

11:41

are , I think some people don't

11:44

, they're not as solid in what

11:46

those are , and so in so

11:48

, part of the holding something gently

11:51

is being able to step

11:54

back and and look at what's really important

11:56

to you . But some people don't know what those are

11:58

yet . And

12:04

I think that this reminds me of I a

12:06

therapist I used to have , where

12:09

he would ask me a bunch of questions and my

12:11

first response was like , well

12:13

, I don't know , this is this is what I

12:15

wanted , and it's not happening . And I kept saying I don't know , I

12:17

don't know , I don't know , and he

12:19

would just not say anything and just wait

12:21

for me to keep talking , and then I would always say

12:24

the part that I knew after that , right , and

12:26

so he's like Emily , you can just like

12:29

pause and then

12:31

say what you do know about

12:33

it and it will be true . And

12:35

I think , like I

12:38

think , when we're holding something onto something

12:40

so tight , we want , we

12:44

want to believe , we

12:49

want to believe that where we wanted to go was right

12:51

. And

12:53

so we don't see it as whatever

12:55

wasteful time or

12:57

disappointment or yeah

13:01

, yeah , and I think

13:03

that we can just kind of yeah

13:09

, just detangle and see what's

13:11

around it , I feel like in terms of like

13:14

finding finding values and

13:17

see what's really important to you . You

13:23

can , I think . I think women especially

13:26

are like still

13:28

stuck with like what should be happening or

13:31

like what things should look like , and

13:34

instead of giving

13:36

themselves that pause and being like okay

13:38

, like what actually is , what

13:40

is true here , what's true ?

13:43

do you have a favorite way , or

13:45

how did you for yourself work out

13:47

what are my true values , or

13:49

what are my values ?

13:51

what is my north star , whatever you want

13:53

to call it , I think that , um

13:55

, something actually recently happened where

13:57

I had like a

13:59

coach friend over and we were

14:02

just talking about business and where we wanted to take

14:04

business stuff and um

14:06

, and she was looking at my house and

14:08

she was like , emily , do you think that

14:11

maybe you want to be an artist ? And

14:13

I was just like I

14:15

was like oh shit . And I was like

14:17

that like hit me so deep

14:19

and it was like clear and

14:22

, um

14:26

, just

14:29

very like solid and deep , and

14:31

I was like , oh shit , I

14:34

think I do , like why have I never

14:36

seen this before ? And I think

14:38

for me , like those types of

14:40

knowing things happen when

14:42

, when it is like clear

14:45

and then something that's that

14:47

feels very deep in the body as opposed

14:49

to something that is

14:52

very like up in my head

14:54

and urgent and hasn't even now

14:56

. And I think , like when you are , when you were

14:59

talking about holding something tightly

15:01

, like that feels up

15:03

in the head too and that feels very urgent and

15:06

oh , I need it , yeah yeah , where

15:08

, like , the true things almost

15:11

don't even have a timeline associated

15:13

with them , right , you're like , oh shoot , I

15:16

do think I want to develop an art practice

15:19

for myself and here

15:21

I've been doing all this other stuff and

15:23

helping artists , which I love to do and will

15:26

continue to do . But now I'm like , oh well

15:28

, this is really inconvenient , now that

15:30

I have to follow my own truth somehow

15:32

and try to take your own medicine

15:34

.

15:35

Interesting totally

15:37

oh , how annoying no

15:40

, but it brings us to a very good topic because

15:42

, as you said

15:45

, like we , we

15:48

both believe everyone's kind of like born an artist , that

15:50

it kind of like gets trained out of ourselves

15:52

. The way in we see

15:55

the world is like

15:57

gets into right or wrong

15:59

boxes . Yeah , and

16:02

I

16:04

sometimes , when I talk to my

16:06

clients about hobbies , I

16:10

get like blank stares , yes

16:12

, and then they're like I like

16:14

to read and I'm like that's good

16:16

for you . Like , yeah

16:19

, I mean reading is a great hobby , but

16:23

is there also something you make ? Is

16:28

there anything you create ? Yeah

16:35

, and then they're

16:38

like , uh , no , and often people are like , oh

16:40

, I , I would like to do something

16:42

, but it almost

16:44

feels overwhelming to start . Which

16:47

brings me to you where

16:49

you shared oh I , I want to start

16:52

establishing and cultivating my art practice

16:54

. Yeah , how can we go

16:57

about this ? How can we start ?

16:59

yeah , um , I can

17:01

tell you how I'm starting . And , yes

17:03

, I and it is , it

17:05

is totally a dose of my own medicine . It's

17:07

funny because , like , I feel

17:10

like I have

17:12

seen , I've seen , I

17:14

mean people , my artists , are well

17:16

beyond . I mean , they are doing , you

17:19

know , selling big works and doing

17:21

big installations and and so

17:23

I and they're having problems like

17:25

coming to a boardroom table and

17:27

and feeling solid in their , in

17:31

their own values when they go in and try to negotiate

17:34

prices , or even prices , but , um

17:36

, and so I'm like , oh , I got that , like I can

17:38

help you with that , but

17:40

, um , but they're well ahead of me

17:42

but what they have figured out or you're figuring out

17:44

now , yes , exactly

17:47

so for me . I

17:50

have one of those

17:52

situations where it's like I have a

17:54

young family and I have

17:56

my coaching business and there

17:58

is like realistically

18:00

a very

18:02

small pocket of time that I can

18:05

start developing something . But if I don't

18:07

use that , that then we'll never

18:09

get anywhere . So it's making

18:12

it important to right

18:14

now take those scraps of time

18:17

and make them into something that's useful . So

18:19

right now it's like , honestly

18:23

, it's probably like eight hours a month , I

18:25

can make something for myself

18:27

, or that's a full day , totally

18:30

, yeah , it's a full day or two , you

18:32

know two big chunks , which is good and

18:36

um , and

18:38

for me it's just like , okay , I'm doing painting

18:41

and I'm doing ceramics and I have um

18:43

, and I don't have that . I don't have the skills

18:46

yet to in ceramics , to even

18:48

be able to do something in my head . So

18:50

it's like I want a

18:52

, I wanted to try to make this shape . I

18:55

couldn't like figure out a way where I can

18:57

get something that looks smooth in

18:59

the shape that I want . And , um

19:01

, right now for painting

19:03

, it's just like I want to find

19:06

a way to work with colors that

19:08

doesn't make me gross

19:11

out at myself , like I'm just

19:13

trying to find what I like and

19:16

um , and so , yeah , it's actually funny

19:18

, like you mentioned , like what are your hobbies

19:20

? And right now I'm in the position where I'm like what

19:23

do I like ? Like what I can

19:25

, I know what kind of art

19:27

that I like

19:30

in other people and I know what

19:32

.

19:32

But that might not necessarily be the art you enjoy making

19:35

.

19:35

No , and there's definitely

19:37

a style that if I'm

19:39

just drawing or painting then I will

19:42

move into just

19:44

naturally , and so it's really just trying

19:47

to get the quantity up where

19:49

some kind of pattern emerges , and

19:53

then with the ceramics it's

19:55

just once I can get

19:58

a shape that I like

20:00

, then I can um , I

20:03

have some ideas on like um

20:06

, like women's bodies

20:08

and tree shapes merging into

20:11

, into things . I'm like I'd really love to be

20:13

able to , to make something that at

20:15

least like hints at what I have

20:17

or explore this , or just explores

20:20

this idea huh , so

20:22

it's totally exploration . It's funny you brought up

20:24

seth godin , because there's another book that I love

20:26

. I think it's even older and it's like a

20:28

super thin book , but

20:30

it is

20:32

, oh my gosh . I think

20:34

it's something like um , what

20:38

are you gonna do when it's your time , and it's always your

20:40

time , or something like that .

20:41

But oh , which sounds like very much

20:43

like a theft god in title .

20:45

Yeah , yeah , totally brilliant , but yeah yeah

20:47

, and pretty much the whole um . The

20:50

whole book is how

20:52

to be an amateur , like

20:54

a throbbing amateur

20:57

at something , and having

20:59

having the reader realize

21:01

that , like before , you're a master at anything

21:03

, you're going to feel very stupid at something and

21:06

you just have to keep feeling stupid

21:08

at something until you have a level of capability

21:10

.

21:11

Yes , which is also probably

21:14

gets harder the older we get , because

21:16

we don't like to feel stupid , because

21:19

at one point in our lives we detached

21:21

very bad memories with that and

21:25

also , yeah , it's just nothing to be in our

21:27

society , it's nothing

21:29

to be desired to be , don't

21:31

know to be new

21:33

at something everyone wants like . Even

21:36

when you look at job job descriptions

21:38

, people would have like a 20 year

21:40

old with 10 year experience in like

21:42

five disciplines and she's like , wow , it's

21:45

not gonna happen

21:48

.

21:48

That's a really good point , because I I coach

21:51

mainly women and I was

21:53

trying to think of , like some , some

21:56

similarities between , um

21:58

, somebody who's not an artist , what they might deal with , and

22:00

then what an artist deals with . And there's

22:03

a similar thing among women where , um

22:05

, they don't want to say

22:07

that they know

22:09

something for sure , like they don't want to be

22:12

like I am an expert in this and

22:15

I can figure this out and um

22:17

, and similar

22:19

to like I don't want to say that

22:21

I know something because I

22:23

might not know it and then I'm gonna look like a fool

22:26

yeah , I'm gonna get

22:28

called out or yeah , but

22:30

in those types of situations like well , well

22:33

, there's always something you do know

22:35

, and probably one of them is like

22:37

I'm the type of person where if

22:41

I don't know , I I'm gonna know something

22:43

and I'm gonna know what questions to ask

22:46

in order to find people to be something

22:48

, to get , to find a solution yes , and

22:50

if , if you're listening and you're ever

22:52

questioning whether you do know , please

22:54

like , believe me , if

22:57

you're listening to these podcasts , you do know like

22:59

you're smart enough , you know like , otherwise

23:01

you would have been long gone totally

23:04

.

23:04

And I know my people , they're like , they don't they

23:07

, yeah , um , it's

23:09

so and

23:11

it's . It's really interesting , right , because you said , like

23:13

you , you have to set

23:16

time aside to

23:19

figure out what you like . Yeah

23:21

, and that just like brought

23:24

me back to my

23:26

kid is now turning five this summer and

23:30

it really brought me back to like two

23:32

years ago when he was like turning

23:34

three and the chunks

23:36

of time got slowly

23:39

bigger . Yeah , you would

23:41

play five more

23:44

minutes by yourself , or just like

23:46

. It just just tiny stretches got

23:48

bigger and bigger . And I had to

23:50

to really rediscover what I

23:52

like , because a lot of

23:54

the things like

23:58

I wouldn't

24:00

say the values shifted

24:02

per se , but there

24:06

was less . I was less willing

24:08

to compromise , I

24:10

was less willing to like , less willing to like

24:12

take up with it just for the sake

24:15

of whatever I'm like man , I

24:17

actually don't really like this or I actually

24:19

do like this and

24:22

yeah , I had to start really

24:25

small like , like you

24:27

said , like in your case

24:30

, taking out colors and just color

24:32

. I don't know . Yeah , shapes , circles

24:34

, strokes that's yeah

24:36

.

24:37

Like literally whenever I

24:39

start , I'm like , oh , I hate

24:41

feeling like I'm starting from

24:44

scratch , but

24:47

it's the process that's necessary

24:49

.

24:52

Is this ? Yes

24:54

, we know it's necessary , we know

24:56

it's the process and

25:03

still , like

25:05

we know , we have to move through

25:07

this discomfort . Like what is your like best kept secret .

25:09

On moving through discomfort when

25:11

starting something new I

25:17

just think of , like , designing your life right , like

25:19

we get fed or

25:22

served up , like this is what your life can

25:24

look like when you have this kind of job and this kind of family

25:26

structure , and these are your options , and

25:28

then you can go on vacations and you can , you

25:30

know , go to to the , get a cocktail

25:32

with your friends , and , um , it's going to be great

25:34

. And I think , like , just

25:39

once you start traveling and once you start

25:41

looking at all the different ways you

25:43

can be a person or live a life , and

25:46

and um , and

25:48

all the different ways that something

25:53

that you , like you know

25:55

right in , so you can just start thinking about . I

26:15

don't know what . What I think about is just like

26:17

I definitely

26:19

want , don't want to get to the end of my life and

26:22

regret not having tried

26:24

, and I also don't want to start trying

26:26

when I'm 80 and have time .

26:28

Yeah , but

26:30

that is granted , that you make it to 80 , which

26:32

is not right . I mean

26:34

not being pessimistic , but I

26:37

mean we just don't know . And if you save

26:39

something up for whenever

26:41

I mean , and this is not just for age

26:44

, right If you I don't

26:46

know say if you're good clothes

26:48

for the good moment , or

26:50

if you say

26:52

feeling good about yourself when

26:55

you look a certain way , yeah

26:57

, you're missing out . Such a fucking

26:59

waste honey .

27:01

Yeah and

27:04

yeah . Like if you're always going to have

27:07

a challenge and you're always going to have hardship

27:12

, like what kind of hardships would you like to

27:14

choose ? That's

27:17

where I'm like trying to get somewhere and trying to

27:19

make something out of my life . That sounds

27:21

juicy .

27:23

Yes , it definitely sounds more intriguing

27:25

than the immediate

27:27

discomfort Right , than

27:33

the immediate discomfort right . But but again , we're holding away that everything that is immediate

27:35

, it has more urgency or more meaning , more is just more

27:38

present in our minds than anything long term

27:40

.

27:41

totally you you

27:44

brought on like sorry , I'll buy the difference

27:46

, and like , is it up here coming from

27:48

my hand ? Yes , we need to do it now

27:50

. Like those are clues on

27:52

, like okay , like let

27:55

me think about this . It's just , I

27:58

don't need to do it this way , I don't have

28:00

to do it in this amount of time , like I

28:02

have options , and I think , like being

28:05

satisfied with your life is

28:08

just always making sure that

28:10

you know what the options are and that you're

28:12

choosing the ones that you want to do .

28:15

You brought up an interesting point before that

28:18

. I want to explore a bit more Safety

28:21

. Right

28:23

, you said , okay , we need

28:26

to feel safe or

28:29

some form of safety to move through

28:31

this cycle of I

28:33

have no idea what I'm doing , this entire roller

28:35

coaster of creating art , yeah

28:38

, um , well , I think I once

28:40

. That reminds me . I think I once read a

28:42

, a quote . Oh

28:45

, I have no idea , but I hope it is now . But

28:48

it's kind of like the three necessary components

28:50

to becoming an artist is seeing , making

28:52

and the tabula rasa , just

28:55

like the whole ups

28:58

and downs roller coaster , whatever or not . But

29:01

I mean back to safety

29:03

. My mind does this sometimes , okay

29:06

. So

29:08

so we need

29:11

to feel a

29:13

certain level of safety , which

29:15

is deeply personal to each and

29:17

every one of us , to be

29:19

able to create freely . Yeah

29:22

, I'd say right , because if you , if

29:26

you're under I don't know

29:28

, I don't know how to pay your bills at the end of the month

29:30

, it probably feels especially

29:32

hard to draw

29:35

a colored circle and decide which one you like best

29:37

.

29:38

Totally , or decide that that's the best use of your time

29:40

is to draw the circle . Yeah

29:44

, yeah , I think there's like there's

29:48

financial safety and

29:50

like the facts , the cold hard facts

29:52

of like is there enough money or not . And

29:55

then there's all

29:57

of like the future , anxiety of like

30:00

will there be enough money , mm-hmm , happy

30:02

. And then there's like the safety

30:05

of like emotional

30:08

safety or like self-talk , right , like , if

30:11

I , if this doesn't work

30:13

out , am I gonna

30:15

be an asshole to myself or am

30:17

I gonna make this be

30:19

a giant failure if this

30:21

doesn't work out ? If I don't , if I try this and I take

30:23

a risk and it doesn't work out , am I gonna , um

30:26

, if I am , I gonna make myself unsafe in

30:29

doing that ? So

30:31

, like , with this , I mean and

30:35

there is a lot of , uh , financial

30:38

risk for a lot of the artists I work with

30:40

um , what I end up doing , which

30:42

is not an easy sell

30:44

, but we do like look at their

30:46

money and we project

30:49

what their life costs , which a lot of them haven't

30:51

even done , haven't done this and

30:53

then we um figure

30:55

out what , like the business they're trying to build , what that

30:57

costs , and then we have a real look at , like

30:59

what they need to make and

31:01

that will usually change

31:04

like , be , like . Oh my gosh , I

31:06

have to like make in a totally

31:09

different way if I'm going to be

31:11

a person who can be supported

31:13

by my art to cover all of this in

31:16

a way that would make me feel safe . But

31:18

in doing that process , they

31:20

have outlined what

31:22

financial safety needs for them

31:26

. While they're going about

31:28

building your art , however long

31:30

that , whatever timeline they want to put on

31:32

that , then there is a concrete

31:35

thing that they can look at and be like I

31:38

feel unsafe . Well , am I unsafe

31:40

? Like , oh no , I'm actually making progress

31:42

towards this thing that I'm doing . Like

31:49

, of course , your brain is going to tell you any business thing is unsafe

31:52

. Anything , any risk is going to be unsafe . But , um

31:54

, you can . You can then look back and be like is that

31:56

true ? Am I unsafe right now , or

31:58

am I just spinning

32:01

this out of control into a bunch of scenarios

32:03

that may or may have happened ? My brain is busy , yeah

32:06

oh

32:10

, what do you think ?

32:11

can there be like a point where an artist

32:14

feels like tooth safe , you

32:16

know , where it kind of like stifles , stifles

32:19

their growth , or or just like , maybe

32:22

you know I haven't had too

32:25

many artists bring that up

32:27

, but I imagine , if you

32:29

know what , though ?

32:30

no , they , they get bored . I think

32:32

they know that they get bored

32:35

with some things , and so

32:37

I don't think I've found anybody

32:40

that is in danger

32:42

. I'm

32:44

feeling too safe , feeling too safe

32:47

, but I think that they , I

32:49

think artists , will tend

32:51

to put themselves

32:53

on another level of risk , because

32:56

that's what they like to do , like

33:00

risk in terms of , like , pushing a new kind

33:02

of project or exploring a new technique

33:06

or medium or concept .

33:08

Yeah , so

33:10

they

33:12

really so . Artists really don't like boredom

33:15

yeah . Yeah

33:17

, when I tend

33:23

to get bored . My head has

33:25

this nasty tendency to create drama

33:27

, to like blow shit

33:29

out of proportion . So I'm not feeling bored

33:31

again , I

33:34

know . I know I should do something else with

33:36

that Stories . Maybe

33:38

I should get play or something . Yeah , that

33:42

would even be more practical than just to

33:44

get an entire pottery studio , which

33:46

I don't have the space for , but

33:48

I do like a pottery wheel , yep , which I don't have the space for , but I do like a pottery wheel

33:51

. Yeah

33:57

, it's

34:03

. Yeah , it's truly interesting

34:05

how , when we say art , yeah , like art

34:07

, to make art

34:09

or to be an artist is human . And have we seen

34:12

so many traits of how

34:14

we deal with uncertainty or detachment

34:16

, surrender ?

34:19

We have so many parallels of how

34:22

we can hold ourselves as artists , or

34:25

how we can see ourselves as artists , yeah

34:27

, and how we can learn from them , yeah

34:30

, I

34:35

really see artists as like , um , and

34:37

really I mean , there are

34:39

people who are not artists , running

34:41

businesses or doing things in their life , who

34:44

think , like artists , right , this isn't , this

34:47

, isn't this , this isn't like you make

34:49

art and therefore you're an artist . Like there are artistic

34:52

every

34:54

. It's a way of being right , right

34:56

, but I think like

34:58

, uh , in a lot of ways , it's just

35:00

people that are

35:03

highly sensitive and see

35:06

connections and see

35:08

ways that things can be blended and merged

35:10

and fused and and taken

35:12

apart and broken down and put back together

35:14

again . Um , and

35:18

so , like artists , I feel like

35:21

, are , you

35:23

know , here's like society all moving

35:25

in a circle and doing things , and then artists are

35:27

able to almost like

35:29

document and the feelings , like document

35:31

the feelings of community when they're happening and , um

35:34

, put them in a form that people can understand

35:36

and then , um

35:38

, yeah

35:41

, I think it's a really important part of society

35:44

where I would love to you

35:46

know , in my vision , is like there's

35:49

this important role of documenting

35:51

and and expressing

35:53

and um , and

35:56

then money is given to these artists to buy their art

35:58

and then they put that money back

36:00

into , you know , their creative process

36:02

and being inspired and , um

36:05

, and looking again

36:07

and being able to take a new connection

36:09

and make it visible for for people

36:11

. So it's kind of a

36:14

connected thing

36:16

no

36:19

, but it's really beautiful .

36:20

I love what he said like artists

36:22

, like document

36:25

, how we collectively feel . Yeah

36:27

, that's very beautifully put

36:29

. So if

36:31

we want to train

36:35

or cultivate the

36:37

artistic side of us , I

36:39

feel , in order to document

36:41

, the prerequisite

36:44

for documenting is seeing

36:46

, is

36:48

seeing the world

36:50

in a special kind

36:52

of way . Yeah

36:56

, how have we learned to see like an artist

36:58

?

37:01

I think it's a feeling thing . I

37:09

think it's like a loop

37:12

of like feeling something

37:14

, putting

37:18

something on , making something visible

37:20

with the least amount of judgment

37:23

as possible , and then observing

37:25

and then changing

37:28

it or not , and then doing it over again

37:30

. So I

37:33

think if you're going to become like

37:35

an artist , then you can think

37:39

about everything . You

37:44

can kind of detangle , like I

37:47

said , if we're seeing what , we

37:49

can kind of merge with it or blend or take

37:51

apart , and

37:55

you can kind of look at anything and be like

37:57

what can we do with this ? What

38:05

if we tried putting this together in a different way ?

38:06

and then just observing and on repeat forever . I

38:08

love this and I think it's something that is truly

38:10

needed not

38:12

, I mean , in our

38:14

society as a whole , because we've done things

38:17

for a while now and

38:19

look at that turned out it's

38:21

peachy for a lot of us

38:23

and so we need to do

38:25

things differently . I think this

38:27

is I mean , this is clear for

38:29

everyone , like at least in my

38:31

bubble so we need to do things differently

38:34

and we need to look at the things and

38:37

like detached

38:40

from their previous meanings and see if

38:42

, is this useful , can this be useful

38:44

? And how we can put it back together in a way

38:46

that serves us .

38:47

Better was better , and I think

38:49

there's also like there's some

38:51

of these key people that are really good at hearing

38:54

what different people say , and and and

38:56

and . Saying it in

38:58

a different way , like helping , um

39:00

, how many ? Helping it be articulated in a

39:02

different way , like translators almost translators

39:05

. They're like translator people in the world who are like

39:08

, if you have so let's say , you have just a normal organization

39:10

and um , and

39:14

you have an artist , and they are

39:17

a feeling type of person and they just kind of

39:19

like blurt something out or or , or

39:22

they have some kind of courage allows

39:24

them to be like hey , I'm noticing this happening

39:26

and like I don't like it or

39:28

it feels weird , or I feel like we should do

39:30

something different . And then

39:32

a translator can be like , okay , let's

39:35

like slow down and

39:37

not

39:39

just throw this under the

39:41

table . It's not important . Like let's not dismiss this

39:43

, but let's see what's here . If we like

39:45

let's hear more of what you're saying and

39:48

see what . See what do here . I'm

39:50

thinking of like . One

40:01

example is I was interning

40:03

when I was in my early 20s for the . It

40:26

was called the Seattle Arts Commission when I was in it , but I was an intern , so I just was sitting

40:28

there and the head of the company was like what ideas could we have that make this city more

40:30

of an art city ? And I was just like , well , let's just like take all the government and put

40:33

them on the moon . And then's like , okay , well , that's really interesting , what if there

40:35

was more artists in like

40:37

positions of authority and leadership

40:40

, like what would that look like and how would

40:43

we train somebody to do that and how would we find

40:45

people that have that capacity or interest

40:47

? And I was just like , whoa , that's

40:51

cool . It's cool that that's what

40:53

you made with that , where I was just blurting

40:55

a feeling out yeah

40:59

, this brings me like this .

41:01

this reminded me a lot of of

41:04

my agency days when , I

41:08

mean , I I'm a designer , I'm a trained

41:10

, but I'm also a sociologist

41:12

, so I was

41:14

often that translator role of

41:17

talking with the designers

41:19

and then going over to the strategy people

41:22

and be like , listen , we

41:24

can all work together on this . Designers

41:28

are not feeling this and

41:31

it really is a skill and , yeah

41:33

, maybe , maybe every business

41:36

should have like an on-call artist .

41:38

there you go and that's really cool

41:40

. Yeah , and the

41:42

challenge with the artist is going to be like I

41:44

can't articulate why , but I

41:47

know this strongly , I

41:50

know this strongly

41:52

and

41:58

if we could just slow down for a second and look at this

42:00

in a different way , then I think it will

42:02

be better . And

42:05

so just having the courage to be able to say that is

42:07

a big leadership step , oh God , yes . And

42:11

then having a team , I mean the strategist

42:14

, and then for the translator

42:16

, for the person , that

42:18

role that you were in , the hard part

42:20

for them is once you go into the strategist , and

42:22

if they have like more power in the company

42:25

, they'd be like , oh , that's a little bit

42:27

unreasonable , and we'll like slow down the timeline

42:29

and budget stuff and blah

42:31

, blah , blah and so we can't do that , sorry

42:34

, and so yeah

42:37

, on kind of no , it would be yeah , yeah , I mean it would

42:39

need different levels

42:42

of working together , different like

42:44

no hierarchies , for

42:47

sure .

42:47

But it's interesting , right like sometimes , if

42:49

, if you ever feel stuck

42:52

with whatever you're doing , yeah

42:57

, maybe take on the artist's

42:59

gaze or artist approach and be like

43:01

, okay , this is not

43:03

working . Let's take

43:05

everything apart , let's

43:08

see which of these pieces I like or don't

43:10

like and let's see if we

43:12

can put them together in a new way that I

43:14

like , better , like , say more , better

43:16

, and see

43:19

what happens .

43:20

Yeah , like , oh , we were really focused on

43:22

this . Like , what are we missing ? What

43:25

are we not looking at ? Because we were so

43:27

focused on this , which obviously is not working ? What

43:29

are we not seeing here ?

43:39

Which , like as you've've said , this happens to every one of us . You

43:41

didn't see that you , you , you're one of your bodies , your desire

43:44

is to become an artist .

43:44

Like sometimes the things are , oh yeah , we don't really . And then it was

43:46

so clear . It's like , oh , I've

43:48

had my full life , I have a

43:51

sculpture degree in a landscape architecture degree

43:53

and I mean , that's like , girl , come on , like

43:55

I know . Well , I was like , oh , I'll do public

43:57

art because I'm really uncomfortable , um

44:00

, having my own idea . And

44:02

like , just because , like , I need

44:04

a client to tell me what

44:06

they , you know what they need , and I need a

44:08

place to put it in . And

44:11

um , I feel

44:13

you , yes , yeah . And and

44:15

then you know all of these companies . I

44:17

have been a leader

44:19

of a company where I hire other artists and

44:21

I just hold them all together and we all do

44:23

, we all make things together , and um

44:26

, and then during covid , that

44:28

that was illegal to do events and

44:31

so we stopped doing that business

44:33

. And then I'm

44:35

like , okay , well , I'll train artists because I know

44:37

how to make a business with , I

44:39

know how to make a creative business and I can , I know how to

44:41

train other people to do that . And so I'm like , okay

44:43

, I'll be a coach . And I'm like , oh my gosh , I've

44:45

been skirting around this forever .

44:50

But I mean , we're on a

44:52

scenic road podcast , so I mean

44:54

, there you go , welcome to the club

44:56

. This is what we do . This is

44:58

life . You know the everyone

45:01

listening . This is this is life . It happens

45:03

to all of us that we detour and detour

45:06

and but

45:08

we're like are you enjoying

45:10

the journey , are you

45:12

? Yeah ? So see , that's

45:14

what it's all about ensuring that there's destiny

45:16

. Enjoying , enjoying

45:18

your destination too , but most importantly

45:21

, enjoying the journey , because if the journey to the destination

45:23

is shit , destination

45:25

might be too . So also .

45:27

I mean , the destination is going to change , so

45:29

it's always going to be a journey .

45:33

Thank you very much . I could not have looked

45:35

for a better , a better way to end this podcast

45:37

. Yes , absolutely , you're right

45:39

, emily . So before

45:41

I let you go , where can people

45:43

find you ?

45:51

Where can people , when people want to work with you , let me know where you're online ? Yeah

45:53

, I think probably best place is instagram , is just emilyellenanderson

45:56

, um , and that's

45:59

my website too , emilyellenandersoncom perfect

46:02

, okay , and you got a

46:04

little something with us the art dream

46:07

business exploration sheet .

46:08

You want to tell me quickly something about it ? Great

46:10

.

46:10

Great . That is just a series

46:13

of questions . If people are like , what do I

46:15

want to do , Like what do ? What

46:17

kind of life do I want to build , this

46:19

is just a series of exploration questions

46:21

where you can maybe get a little closer

46:24

to figuring out what that is .

46:27

Oh , I'm all about explorative questions . One

46:30

last question before I let you off the hook what

46:33

book are you currently reading or what audiobook

46:35

are you currently listening to ?

46:37

dang good question . So

46:40

I'm reading two books . I usually

46:42

have ten , but right now I have two .

46:45

I'm usually also between six and seven , but

46:47

yeah , sure ten .

46:51

Hagnning Haggitude by

46:53

blackney . Do you know this one ? No , it's

46:56

, um , it was recommended to me , uh

46:58

, just because I

47:00

met with somebody from the event

47:02

industry that I left during covid and

47:06

um , just

47:08

the idea of this , like whole industry just

47:10

going away and this feeling of

47:13

grief and unmoored ness

47:15

and like what nags the uncertainty

47:17

and um has to do a lot

47:19

with , like perimenopause and menopause and

47:21

what happens in your later , the

47:24

later part of your life . So it's called haggitude

47:26

. It's like totally steeped in old

47:28

folklore and really

47:31

good , ooh . And then it's when I'm reading

47:33

yeah , so that sounds interesting

47:35

. She's a poet too , so she's just lovely

47:37

to listen to . And

47:43

then the other one is called

47:46

Otherlands , by Thomas Halliday , and

47:56

he's a paleontologist and he describes extinct worlds , past worlds I mean earth world , like past versions

47:59

of earth that have gone extinct , and he writes about them as if

48:01

you're in them and it's happening

48:03

. Oh , it's very

48:05

interesting , it makes you feel very

48:09

impermanent . And then , oh , if you want

48:11

anything to like get you your

48:14

desire in life , read

48:16

that book , because you're like , oh , my god , like we've

48:18

been here like for a millisecond

48:21

of time and our life is

48:23

very precious and short and we

48:25

just should be just doing whatever we want

48:27

again

48:30

, you're serving a perfect line as to end this

48:32

conversation , emily

48:34

.

48:34

thank you so much for being on the scenic route

48:36

with me . Thank you .