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this

0:40

is science friday on sophie

0:42

bushwick fire of love the

0:44

tells the story of french vulcanologists

0:46

katya and maurice craft the

0:49

married couple spent two decades chasing

0:51

volcanic eruptions across the world

0:54

katya was a geo chemist and maurice

0:56

a geologist together they studied

0:59

the science of volcanoes and produce

1:01

films showcasing their power that

1:04

is until their deaths in the

1:08

berry being a lot so much

1:31

a lot story between mores

1:33

and katya and the volcano's

1:35

they documented at the heart

1:37

of the new documentary fire emblem

1:40

the winning me now is the film's director sarah

1:42

dosa sarah welcome to sites

1:45

friday thinks an accent it's a to be

1:47

her would initially drew you

1:49

to the story of patio murray's craft

1:51

i'm sorry i first met patreon race class

1:54

to actually when i was researching image

1:56

as for the last film directed a song called

1:58

the seer in the unseen that

1:59

were shot entirely in iceland

2:02

which is actually have a volcanic

2:04

islands i'm and are looking for old

2:06

images of erupting volcanoes and islands'

2:08

for one specific scene when you

2:11

start researching erupting volcano is

2:13

archives i things you learn about

2:15

catch him or his past my team and

2:17

i we were immediately struck by justice

2:19

spectacular images that is really once

2:22

we started to learn about them you know as

2:24

individuals these philosophical

2:26

and play fall hilarious and and

2:28

brilliant scientists but also as a couple

2:30

the fact that they were married so we really thought

2:32

that there could be unique story here

2:34

dude is a love triangle

2:36

between katya maurice and

2:39

volcanoes but this is science

2:41

friday so how did you decide

2:43

how much science you were going to put into

2:45

the story so we really see fire low

2:48

as a collage both in terms of

2:50

archival material that we used to edit it together

2:52

and but it's also clashed automatically

2:55

we really wanted the film to be a love story

2:57

a fine story a character portraits

3:00

and also also of fagan asked meditation

3:02

on humanities place by it is very

3:04

difficult it's hidden in do all of the things

3:06

that out the film becoming know volcano

3:08

movie

3:09

man in the but we really realize

3:11

that find story lifestyle

3:13

i'm a character store a can all kind of

3:15

cohere through the landis of fucking understanding

3:18

amid the unknown pursuing understanding

3:21

of these mysteries you know though that

3:23

grand who mystery that are these powerful

3:25

forces or volcanoes as well as

3:28

the mystery of the human heard patreon

3:30

, for after the strange alchemy

3:33

of elements the combination of

3:35

mineral sheet

3:47

that makes the earth heartbeat

3:58

examine

4:02

murray begin to learn

4:05

the secrets of the plan and nephew

4:07

others

4:17

attorney

4:21

there are so many mesmerizing

4:23

shots of volcanoes in the film we

4:25

see lava eruptions rivers

4:28

of law bodies bottling close

4:30

ups you went through over two

4:32

hundred hours of footage from the crafts

4:35

archives and then fifty additional

4:37

hours of tv interviews and appearances

4:40

how , you decide which of these images to

4:42

use for the film film

4:44

thursday had a phenomenon here we

4:47

can have very much tackle this together

4:49

and it was so challenging title

4:51

whittled down all of this footage ensue

4:54

ninety three minute or but we really

4:56

use and the presence of a love story to

4:58

guide us to first and foremost there

5:00

is no footage of catching were

5:02

kissing are holding hands or any sauce

5:04

any their romantic life

5:07

together out there are so focused on filming

5:09

volcanoes that that kind of intimate personal

5:11

life it does it did not show up and in their

5:13

visual record and but we very

5:15

much realize that images of volcanoes

5:18

was actually there was good tell

5:21

a love story using their own flooded

5:23

with that kind of look for and how that

5:26

had kind of show up and in their imagery itself

5:28

for example the beginning of their relationship we

5:30

use images of you know can a bubbling law that

5:33

sparks flying things that can kind

5:35

of how to communicate the early exciting

5:38

catalytic phase of a relationship than

5:40

as the love story has loomed and

5:42

and blossoms of me i get more

5:44

explosive who were dreamy with our

5:46

imagery of course there's twists

5:49

and turns and course there's and and

5:51

darkness that comes also out

5:53

in the process of a falling in love and and

5:55

really understanding your your lover be

5:57

at a human why i love

5:59

a volcano

6:02

in an interview included in the film

6:04

a young maurice rejects classification

6:07

systems eventually

6:09

he does go on to it to talk about two

6:11

different types of volcanoes on

6:13

read volcanoes and gray volcanoes so

6:15

what's the difference between means and how

6:18

did these two types of volcanoes cheap the trajectory

6:20

of katya murray says careers yeah

6:23

i love that about caution and

6:25

where he is that they very much rejected labels

6:28

and and really did seek to understand the up

6:30

in their words come to personalities in the mood

6:32

that the individual characteristics of volcanoes

6:34

and but yeah loosely read it

6:36

and gray otherwise known as if you save

6:39

or explosive volcanoes came to kind of

6:41

characterized these to lease

6:43

categories of volcano that they studied

6:46

very briefly a kind of a few saver read

6:48

volcanoes are lit iconic

6:50

mack matic volcanoes of the a beautiful

6:53

orange lava flows that i come

6:55

down and cascade like waterfalls from

6:58

oftentimes tones or or shield volcanoes

7:00

so gray volcanoes are explicit volcanoes

7:03

are often on a killer volcanoes because there's

7:05

no to be some of the most powerful and deadly

7:07

forces on the planet nothing

7:10

, for example is the is an explosive volcano

7:12

and and nineteen eighty and during that eruption

7:15

it was thought to be about twenty five thousand

7:17

times the energy release release

7:20

that of that the bomb dropped on hiroshima nineteen

7:22

forty five so it's really an extraordinary

7:24

an and for cathy murray

7:26

they began their career just

7:29

totally in love with

7:31

l volcanoes that particularly enchanted

7:33

by read volcanoes first and foremost

7:35

the know they really thought read volcanoes create

7:37

new lands with something them so enchanting

7:39

to them to really see late

7:44

however over the course of

7:46

their life they thought deeper and deeper

7:48

understanding they wanted to go towards the the

7:50

unknown and towards the danger they

7:52

are driven kind of by the thrill of it ah

7:55

but also am there is a real need to

7:57

study had a beguiling awesome

7:59

force and like many

8:01

fires and nevada salaries of

8:03

henao and columbia erupted and

8:05

very tragically killed over

8:07

twenty two thousand people on some

8:09

reports have ads as twenty five thousand

8:12

people died and not eruption

8:14

louis big face even though this

8:16

volcano with predicted to erupt warning

8:19

system for not properly implemented

8:21

and evacuations did not take place i

8:24

believe patreon murray sexually contributed

8:26

to the report that warned authorities that they

8:28

had to do it out of report that was ignored

8:31

yes yeah patreon rates are very much

8:33

part of a chorus of scientists that were

8:35

calling for the is warning systems to be implemented

8:38

however , really are were not

8:41

not seriously i largely

8:43

due to political economic complexity

8:46

in colombia at that time that brewery

8:48

that what we've seen today

8:51

with a lot of big issues you know climate

8:53

change the covert pandemic

8:55

scientists warn that there's a big problem

8:58

but governments failed to act to do

9:00

you see a parallel there absolutely

9:02

there was something our team really thought a lot about

9:05

as are making power of love and the

9:07

fact that only thing tests on and off

9:09

the people who lives in relationship with a volcano

9:11

am aside from vulcanologists people who really hadn't

9:13

lived experience and a relationship of

9:15

the land their voices were

9:18

very much ignored and it

9:20

has largely economic interests were taking

9:22

priority and that's something we're absolutely

9:24

thing right now with our climate crisis we

9:26

really helped her that dot story line

9:29

put resonates in today's world even

9:31

though we're telling this story

9:33

i'm thirty years ago i

9:35

mean one of the reasons that patreon murray

9:38

we're focusing on on the

9:40

film was that they hoped to use that

9:42

to communicate some of the risks

9:44

about volcanoes that were ignored in

9:46

i'm in nineteen eighty five i

9:48

get to think that there is value

9:50

to science communication today the

9:54

to the use of film or to other techniques

9:57

at to communicate clearly were just have

9:59

written report

9:59

wouldn't

10:01

absolutely love them something hiking wraith

10:03

really gravitated towards especially towards

10:05

the end of their careers and they really notice how

10:07

people responded to that however imagery

10:10

and specifically caution races imagery they

10:12

were willing to get so close to

10:14

this totally painters phenomenon

10:17

to capture the imagery they really thought

10:19

that if if they could kind of create these portraits

10:22

of the is dangerous for says that

10:24

way that move no decision maker it

10:26

politicians and help inspire

10:28

them to creeps morning system

10:30

for and various evacuation plan i

10:33

to save lives i think that

10:35

there's a long history of the power of imagery

10:37

in terms of environmental movement for example

10:40

the image of earthrise that is really is always

10:42

credited as as isn't meaningful one that

10:44

kind of showed up and nineteen sixty eight

10:47

this powerful image of

10:49

earth from space on really

10:51

helping to galvanize this idea of this shared

10:53

home a power that the financing

10:56

and the alive and s of our planet's at a time

10:58

when we we really need an stories

11:00

like that and and now there

11:03

are drones that can get really close okay

11:05

knows bites that doesn't

11:07

really have the the intimacy or

11:09

the danger of standing so closely

11:11

the crafted so you think that their work

11:14

was a moment in history that can never

11:16

be replicated yeah , fascinating

11:19

a i do feel a cat in race occupy

11:21

the sliver of time and between

11:23

never done before and will never be done

11:25

again in the same way and

11:28

categories are very much from the first people

11:30

to documents volcanoes at that

11:32

close range and ah

11:34

and specifically wet with the kind of technology that

11:36

the years they're using sixteen millimeter mostly

11:40

is extremely condition typical

11:41

it didn't fit your age did you you get

11:44

you can get it was and

11:46

and for how can read kid out of part of the

11:48

appeal of ways that proximity wise

11:50

to literally feeling that he'd on

11:53

it's funny when ed murray says frankincense and

11:55

bad he thinks that brief would absolutely

11:57

adore drown if you look around today

12:00

and i could totally see haven't been in our quote

12:02

unquote your head and but at the same time

12:04

i i have to believe that they would still continue

12:06

to go up to erupt and craters that if they were

12:09

still with us today and by drone

12:11

technology has contributed volumes

12:13

to the study of and volcanoes and

12:15

and geoscience and general and but it

12:17

has completely kind of change the relationship and

12:19

and the , and of course the

12:21

imagery captured so yeah

12:23

how to say they to say pioneers and ends

12:25

at feel like their work is almost kind of a time

12:28

capsule of that moment and

12:30

that's all the time we have that sarah

12:33

thank you so much for being here oh

12:35

thank you so much sophie is such a joy

12:38

to to speak with you they're a

12:40

dosa is the director of the documentary film

12:42

fire of lot it's currently in theaters

12:44

nationwide and it will be streaming on disney

12:47

plus later this year

12:50

friday is supported by flippant

12:52

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sign fans here the new podcast

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to explore earth while they wait for to ship they

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arctic fox peregrine falcon and the mimic

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octopus that is if that were not

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13:59

as for part docu series now

14:02

streaming on pbs dot org slash

14:04

peril and promise

14:05

i'm david remnick and each

14:07

week and a new yorker radio our my colleagues

14:09

and i unpack what's happening in a very

14:12

complicated world you'll ,

14:14

from the new yorkers award winning reporters

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and thinkers jelani cobb on

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race injustice to look for

14:20

on american history vincent cunningham

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on climate change and many please

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never miss an episode listen to the

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new yorker radio our

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so people sweat and this is science friday

14:39

from w n y c studios about

14:42

forty three million people in the world

14:44

are blind and nearly three hundred

14:46

million more has moderate or severe

14:48

visual impairment

14:50

to help make information more

14:52

accessible to more people the

14:54

tech industry has really taken off in

14:56

trying to the adaptive technology

14:59

lock screen readers for example like

15:01

many ideas for adaptive tech are

15:03

based on the assumptions of sighted people

15:06

instead of the actual needs of blind

15:08

and visually impaired folks josh

15:10

merely is an inventor and accessibility

15:13

researcher at amazon as well as

15:15

macarthur genius grant winner

15:17

you've been blind for nearly his entire life

15:20

and now he helped invent tools to make the

15:22

world more accessible for others to

15:24

he joins me now from berkeley california

15:27

welcome jess

15:28

thank you so much it's a pleasure to be on sides

15:30

friday

15:31

let's start with the basics what is

15:33

adaptive tax us ability is really

15:35

just designed for

15:38

people with disabilities so

15:40

there are examples of accessibility

15:42

and adaptive technology everywhere

15:45

in our lives from

15:47

her brand that help

15:48

from the sidewalk into the street without

15:51

having to go down a step to

15:53

elevators that have braille labels

15:56

to screen readers as you mentioned that

15:59

allow people

15:59

read what on their computer screens

16:02

without being able to see it everywhere

16:04

and it's not always a technology

16:07

that only supports people with disabilities

16:09

very often the best

16:11

accessibility technologies or an

16:13

adaptive solutions support

16:16

everyone and are particularly

16:18

useful for people with disabilities

16:20

hundred you always want to design

16:22

captive technology i grew

16:25

up as a little blind kid not

16:27

wanting anything to do with blindness or

16:29

disability i wanted to

16:31

be a space scientists i wanted to send

16:33

rocket to the the planets

16:36

and to the to the moons of saturn and stuff

16:38

like that and ,

16:40

i was an undergrad at berkeley studying physics

16:42

i met a community of blind people at berkeley

16:44

that really were instrumental

16:47

in helping me understand that i was not

16:49

alone in the world of blindness that there

16:52

were lots of cool blind people out there doing

16:54

important stuff and that in

16:56

fact we needed blind people

16:58

in the accessibility industry so

17:01

that we could build the tools we needed not

17:03

the tools that that people thought

17:05

we needed it was done that i realized that

17:07

my creativity my skills and my

17:10

thinking would be of great benefit

17:12

to not only myself as

17:14

a blind person who needed the tools to

17:17

be good and good ,

17:19

but for lots of other blind

17:21

people in the world soy i really i shifted

17:23

from trying not to be him paulson

17:26

blindness at all to really embracing

17:28

blindness as an identity as and

17:30

as a career

17:32

what's your process like when you're

17:34

thinking up a new invention but

17:35

that is very organic because

17:38

usually thinking up a new invention

17:40

is basically addressing a need that

17:42

i already know that i admire

17:46

i'm calling from community are facing

17:48

and accessibility need that is

17:50

on a draft and the first the

17:52

i usually think is why doesn't

17:54

anybody dealt with this before and

17:56

then i get down to thinking about what the

17:58

solution would be you

18:01

know i always try to find

18:03

simple off the shelf solution

18:05

that's one of the things that i really need

18:07

to emphasize you know expensive

18:10

solutions are not appropriate for

18:12

most people with disabilities people with disabilities

18:15

are deeply under employed

18:17

in the u s as well as globally

18:19

and so

18:21

local solutions are really important

18:23

if you want to be able to make an impact

18:26

on people's lives the solution need

18:28

to be within economic reach

18:30

i don't consider myself to be

18:33

the source of all information i'm blind

18:35

i live in a world where

18:37

i connect with lots of people with disabilities

18:39

lots of blind people but

18:42

my experience

18:43

the unique one i'm just one

18:45

person and so to make sure that

18:47

any technology works for everyone

18:51

the potential to incorporate

18:53

other people into the design

18:55

phase the testing phase so i checked

18:57

my ideas at every

19:00

stage i talk to others whether

19:02

it's formal or informal research i

19:05

understand what the various

19:07

and wide ranging needs are

19:10

before i go

19:12

too far down the road of invention because

19:14

once you go too far down that road

19:17

if it's too late you late

19:19

you doors that should not

19:21

have gone been gone through or

19:23

you will find that you're addressing

19:25

the wrong problem

19:27

and are there ever time is where you

19:29

hear about new pro

19:30

that meant for blind people to use but

19:32

you're like ah who is this actually

19:35

supposed to be helpful

19:35

for yeah that happens all

19:38

the time i've got a google alert that for

19:40

you know a bunch of keywords blindness

19:42

technology invention and

19:45

it's just amazing how often i

19:47

get these articles that are

19:50

talking about tools for way finding

19:52

for crossing streets for doing

19:54

all kinds of things that in fact there are

19:56

much simpler solution for

19:59

and that if the

19:59

the entered had

20:02

stop and really understood what solutions

20:04

were already available and how

20:06

blind or disabled people would be using

20:09

these inventions they would have done something

20:11

quite different and probably much more

20:14

useful but the enemy is always

20:16

lack of information the solution

20:18

is always to learn end the

20:21

theory of find out more about what your

20:23

what your customers need before you

20:26

pull for you do the inventing believe

20:28

that actually solve the problem

20:30

can you tell me about an invention that stemmed

20:33

from your own x

20:33

eerie and i think all of them done a lot of

20:35

work in tackle maps were

20:39

so , created a system called

20:41

female that is now available from

20:43

the san francisco lighthouse in anybody anywhere

20:46

can order a street map of any

20:48

location they want that is acceptable

20:50

in braille and large print and raised blinds

20:53

the that of way for black people to

20:55

be able to understand understand street

20:57

networks around where they live around where they go to

20:59

school etc i'm extremely proud

21:01

of that and the fact that title

21:04

accessible street maps are now widely

21:06

available to anyone who needs some i

21:09

also have done have lot of work in audio description

21:11

the technology that allows

21:13

videos to be accessible for blind people

21:16

in much the same way that people probably

21:19

are familiar with captions that are

21:21

and accommodation for deaf folks to be able to

21:23

know what's being said audio

21:25

description is

21:27

the earth it allows

21:29

find people to know what's going on on the screen

21:31

through a set of very brief

21:33

and to think narration

21:36

and so i created some technology

21:39

that allows people to add

21:41

audio description to any youtube video

21:43

that's called you describe and

21:45

it's available at you described dot

21:47

org those are two things that

21:50

i'm super proud of and

21:52

like were

21:54

generated from my own frustration

21:56

with the lack of available information in those

21:59

areas

21:59

i've also done a lot of work in

22:02

damn and science

22:03

the kitchen for blind children

22:05

and adults i started a thing

22:07

called the blind arduino project which is

22:10

a volunteer grassroots effort to

22:12

help teach teachers and children

22:14

about how blind people work with

22:17

hobby robotics tools and electronic

22:20

so blind people can solder blind

22:22

people can build robots one people can program

22:24

computers and it's just a matter of making sure

22:26

that everybody knows

22:28

what techniques are necessary to do that so

22:31

that's very rewarding as well i

22:33

am the work i do is

22:35

our technology

22:37

the in much larger part

22:39

social activism and trying

22:41

to explain to the world

22:44

that blindness his blindness

22:46

and disability

22:47

simpli me in that

22:49

activities are done differently but

22:51

almost all activities are possible

22:54

it opens up not only more

22:56

educational possibility for students with

22:58

visual impairments but also career

23:00

opportunities and as i mentioned earlier

23:03

employment as is still a huge problem

23:05

for folks with disabilities so education

23:07

is the key to that a thing

23:09

that sounds like with making the maker

23:12

movement and the i why more accessible

23:14

through your work with this or do you know project

23:17

your possibly help and to foster the next

23:19

visually impaired and

23:20

after that's exactly it and so the blind

23:22

or we know project is not only

23:24

about teaching electronic but it's teaching

23:27

kids vine , them cited

23:29

kids and adults about how

23:31

to build and invent for themselves

23:34

i do a lot of teaching about accessibility

23:37

and accessibility design because for the first

23:39

time folks can actually

23:41

build what they need you can't

23:44

really buy and accessible

23:47

volt meter or multi meter

23:49

or throw a scope online

23:51

they're just not available so you

23:53

need to build it yourself and the

23:56

beauty and empowerment of

23:58

being able to build tools like

24:00

like that for oneself and to design

24:02

it in a way that makes sense for

24:05

what your needs are as a person

24:07

with a disability is extraordinary

24:09

the empowerment and the learning

24:12

possible is really one of the most

24:14

exciting unsatisfying things

24:16

i do in my career and

24:18

, important to point out again

24:21

that is not applying kids that need to learn

24:23

the lessons that decided children children

24:26

adults that are learning alongside the

24:28

line kids they're just

24:30

as much in need of understanding

24:33

that

24:34

doughty unacceptability their

24:36

part of life and if we design

24:38

the world properly it's not

24:40

actually that big of a deal

24:43

you're at amazon now and you helped make

24:45

their products more accessible for everyone

24:48

so let's say you walk into a lab you

24:50

got to try out a device for the first time

24:52

how do you go about evaluating

24:54

the first time i put my hands on a device

24:57

i'm looking at the physical aspect of

24:59

the device i'm looking at does it have buttons

25:02

does that have been that you can field as that of

25:04

a touchscreen how many ports

25:06

are jack

25:07

are there are on the back of it are they easy

25:10

to distinguish by touch so

25:12

i'm looking at this for blindness

25:14

accessibility but for example if you can't

25:17

feel we're a button is on a

25:19

device that gonna make it hard

25:21

for a blind person to operate is offered gonna be hard

25:24

for someone can see who doesn't

25:26

have the lights turned on you look at the

25:28

physical aspect of the device first

25:31

and you think about all the use cases

25:33

that we know about which are which

25:35

are many who needs to use this

25:38

in what situations to they need to use

25:40

it and how can we

25:42

make simple the

25:44

changes so that it improve

25:46

the experience for people with disabilities

25:49

and for everyone else in the same process

25:52

you do the same process on whatever digital

25:54

experience there might be whether you turn

25:56

the device on is there you

25:59

know how do you know the on or off is there a

26:01

way to know is there a way to interact

26:03

with it is there an app that needs to get paired

26:06

with it is that up going to work well

26:08

with a single switch

26:10

software and magnifiers and screen readers

26:13

so there's a whole other the other

26:15

world of questions asked

26:17

about new devices

26:19

when you encounter them and usually the best

26:21

approaches to making them acceptable

26:23

or the simplest but if essential

26:26

you can't pick up a device that

26:29

been produced and figure out

26:31

how to make it accessible it's too late once

26:33

it's once it's a device that has

26:35

the ability barriers it's too late

26:38

and it's really essential to get

26:40

into that lab not

26:42

check out a device but to talk

26:44

to the designers to talk to the engineers

26:47

to talk to the casters to really connect

26:50

with the people that are going to be building that device

26:53

and , sure that they understand

26:56

who's going to be using it

26:58

i'm soapy bushwick this is science friday

27:00

from w n y c

27:03

i'm talking with accessibility researcher

27:05

josh mealy you have an example of a

27:07

time where you were able to go through that

27:10

problem solving process

27:11

yeah to show and tell his own have

27:13

a great feature that's available on all

27:15

of amazon multi ,

27:18

devices the alexa devices that have screen

27:21

screen those devices also have cameras

27:23

and the show and tell feature

27:25

allows you to hold up a

27:28

that boy girl box of cereal or

27:30

a can of something

27:30

or a jar and say what

27:33

am i holding and the team

27:35

that was working on it before i got to amazon

27:38

were very disappointed in what

27:40

they were able to do because the

27:42

the able to get the

27:44

that they wanted they wanted

27:47

to be able to get

27:49

the few identify

27:50

what they were holding up with a high degree

27:52

of reliability and they were very disappointed

27:55

that there

27:56

weren't as reliable as as

27:58

they needed to be

27:59

one of the things that i help them understand

28:02

was the if you're in a situation

28:04

if you're in the position of saying

28:06

what am i holding you don't

28:09

need

28:10

the for thoroughly an exact match

28:12

you just need information

28:14

about what you've got chances are

28:16

you

28:16

already know that it's very old

28:19

but you'd sure like to know whether it's

28:21

you know captain crunch and rice

28:23

krispies before you open the box the

28:25

system it may not be able to provide

28:27

you a one hundred percent accurate response

28:30

about what you're holding but what

28:32

you can do is provide all sorts of additional

28:34

information about what it sees so it

28:37

may see branding made the text

28:39

on the box that says captain

28:41

crunch or some other words

28:43

on the label so the idea

28:46

of providing any information

28:48

as opposed to exact information

28:50

was not on their radar so

28:52

i help them understand that really

28:55

what they needed to do with provide information

28:58

about what was being held not

29:00

exhaustive perfect information about

29:02

what was being held and in so

29:04

doing we created a product that is unique

29:06

because not only does the try to do an

29:09

exact match and if it finds one it

29:11

lets you know exactly what you're holding but

29:14

if it can find can exact match it's also

29:16

in the process of looking for brand

29:18

logos brand looking for tacked on the box

29:21

and it'll give you whatever it fine weather

29:23

that weather perfect one hundred percent

29:25

exact match or just kept

29:27

that it read on the label and any of that is

29:29

helpful and we consider that successful

29:32

so am i really hope the team

29:34

understand what their success criteria was

29:37

they didn't really understand how

29:39

this was going to be used by real blind

29:41

people blind the real world

29:44

and as helpful as adaptive technology

29:46

can be cancelled every accessibility

29:49

issue right

29:50

your accessibility i

29:52

often say that accessibility as the technical

29:55

side of disability inclusion

29:57

it's relatively easy to build

29:59

techno

29:59

that allow people

30:02

with disabilities to participate accessibility

30:05

as a as a technical field is

30:07

creative an exciting but it's not weird

30:09

the bigger

30:10

problem with wire generally i would

30:13

say that the societal

30:15

issues around

30:17

it already discriminate

30:18

the an able with them and sort of the

30:21

the long term

30:22

a function that people

30:24

have about disability about

30:26

of their fear of disability their fear

30:29

of people of saying the wrong thing

30:31

the barriers that there are four

30:34

people would deploy to

30:36

that does the equal employment equal

30:39

education access to entertainment

30:41

there are technical problems but there

30:44

are

30:45

the bigger problems than the more pervasive ones

30:47

are really a social problems and the assumptions

30:50

that non disabled people have

30:53

about people with disabilities and even

30:55

people with disabilities often hold

30:58

those limiting beliefs as well

31:00

about themselves and it's hard

31:02

to shift to society you know as i

31:04

mentioned earlier i work on the

31:06

technical parts of the problem

31:08

because they're they're fun and easy relatively

31:11

speaking but speaking consider myself

31:13

an activist more than more

31:15

than anything else and to create

31:18

societal change in

31:21

all of our assumptions about disability

31:24

is the main mission is the

31:26

bigger mission that yo everyone

31:28

can really contribute to by

31:30

becoming more educated becoming more

31:33

aware of disability accessibility

31:35

and i'm in a learning about

31:37

what what able islam is and how to avoid

31:39

it

31:40

what an important note to end on

31:42

josh thank you so much for joining us

31:44

it was my pleasure i really enjoyed

31:47

our conversation

31:48

josh me lie isn't inventor and accessibility

31:51

researcher at amazon based in berkeley

31:53

california

31:55

find friday is supported by flip and

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series now streaming on pbs

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33:12

sign friday and down soapy bushwick

33:15

there's an important part of human anatomy

33:17

that tends to be excluded from even

33:20

the most candid discussion the

33:22

giant if this is something

33:24

you feel uncomfortable talking about or

33:26

hearing on the radio i'd get it the

33:29

know anatomy has been treated in popular

33:31

culture as mysterious and shameful

33:34

which is the perfect recipe for harmful

33:36

misinformation friday's

33:38

christie taylor talked to an author of

33:40

a book that delves into the science of

33:43

the vagina and it's vital companion

33:45

organs the ovaries the uterus

33:47

and the clutter is christie welcome

33:49

back pain or something

33:51

so tell us all about this book yeah

33:53

in the book is vagina obscure

33:55

i and anatomical voyage i have

33:57

by rachel he growth and it all

34:00

sorts of amazing that from this very neglected

34:02

field of research like how uterus

34:04

of are the only human organ that can heal

34:07

wounds without a single star and

34:09

that's every single time for women's rights

34:11

and this isn't even a book just about human anatomy

34:14

for instance did you know that for many animals

34:16

such as ducks the vagina has actually

34:19

evolved to allow the female to choose

34:21

which sperm and therefore which doc

34:23

fertilizers rags that is super

34:25

cool what ritual investigating

34:28

this topic in the first place yeah ritual

34:30

is a science journalist and an editor she

34:32

has spent a lot of time with the stories of scientists

34:35

were asking big questions but

34:37

she also noticed some things about who's

34:40

questions about why it actually

34:42

got explored thoroughly

34:44

whenever we were tell file

34:46

the email scientists

34:48

the had unique question

34:50

sometimes about female bodies

34:52

the body work

34:53

the would see the ways in which she faced

34:56

like challenges

34:58

the and often didn't get

35:00

to make those questions part of the canon

35:03

the what a

35:04

began to realize guy

35:06

mystery surrounding the female body and

35:08

really the lack of research on the female body

35:11

right

35:12

very intimately connected

35:14

the lack of women in science asking

35:16

the question

35:17

that actually

35:19

hi the moment and talk about terminology than

35:21

because while this is definitely a book about vagina

35:23

is and ovaries and uterus is it

35:26

would be inaccurate to say that this is the female

35:28

reproductive system necessarily

35:30

right so how do we

35:32

talk about these things without leaving without

35:34

trans man non binary people

35:36

and anyone elses invested elses invested

35:40

it's really about how science

35:42

and medicine have imagined

35:44

those organs and uterus ovaries

35:46

china clitoral

35:48

the and

35:49

the past

35:50

history commenter scientists

35:52

make collection that anyone

35:55

those are going to kelly those

35:57

the interest or women and

35:59

today are

35:59

we know that

36:02

we are also talking about intersex people

36:04

and transmitted

36:05

the a non binary folks

36:08

the and so i wanted to both

36:11

be able to say

36:11

this is how

36:13

historically madison decided

36:16

to define women

36:17

and here the effects of everyone left

36:19

out and it often turns out that

36:22

the trans man with endometriosis

36:25

really overlooked and get a lot worse

36:27

treatment and doctors don't know how

36:29

to handle them are ask the right questions

36:32

to figure out what they're going to the cassette of hadn't

36:34

considered a feisty associated

36:36

with what they think of as reproductive the

36:38

is you know when you say research has neglected

36:40

these organs you you really mean neglected

36:43

there was even a long period where we didn't think women

36:45

had eggs or contributed any material to

36:47

babies even after the invention

36:49

of the microscope tell me more about that yeah

36:51

that would wilde for me to learn

36:54

so

36:55

help you succeed hundreds we called ovaries

36:57

or female testicles because

36:59

we didn't really know what they did and

37:02

that microscopes in the sixteen

37:04

hundred

37:05

we had this

37:06

dutch microscopist named anthony

37:08

bond the winter

37:09

the and it the last thing he looked at

37:12

was ejaculate he eventually

37:14

that he actually saw it in

37:17

each sperm an entire folded

37:19

up human being

37:20

and so he surmised that

37:22

this

37:23

than being merely unfolded

37:25

in the female body and so mail

37:27

contributed the seed and the female

37:29

was the soil

37:31

this sort of an extension

37:33

ramen idea that had existed

37:36

for centuries but now it had the

37:38

backing up someone you had a microscope

37:40

the decided to

37:42

well and you know one of the recurring

37:44

themes of this book is this

37:47

assumption of female passive etti an

37:49

inner peace i'm talking about like the organs themselves

37:52

the egg is perceived as passively

37:54

waiting for sperm the vagina is perceived

37:56

as this passive tunnel for copy elise

37:59

and by neither of these things

38:01

the actually like that and i want to start with something

38:03

it seems to be like every biology nerds favorite

38:05

story which is duck vagina as

38:07

can you unpack that for me

38:10

really the started with a fascination

38:12

with duct penises i remember

38:14

like a new to have all these horrifying

38:16

videos

38:17

work through penis

38:18

the and explode into the female

38:21

the book i ended up talking to patty

38:23

brennan who is biologist

38:25

and see it basically

38:28

this is happening on a male side then

38:30

what's happening on the female side

38:32

there was an assumption that there was nothing

38:35

interesting happening and that email

38:37

she ended up doing a really

38:39

you can't like

38:40

where's one day section and

38:42

the i pad the female dog was

38:45

really it's own biological matter

38:47

so it was this

38:49

which granted turning

38:51

kind of labyrinth and there were

38:53

pockets and dead end for sperm prefer

38:56

to die and it looks like she might

38:58

be a

38:58

you exert some sort out that

39:00

the call autonomy over what sperm

39:03

ended up fertilizing her eggs or not

39:05

if you had again this assumption

39:08

that there was like this passive female

39:10

or game that we all confesses to

39:12

interact with the mail and once you would

39:14

closer you saw this the

39:16

ripper dynamic complex

39:19

and totally unexpected

39:21

moderate that is really doing a lot

39:23

for the female doc and doing things

39:25

that we can even have imagined and similarly

39:28

when we start to look at bodies

39:30

and genital

39:31

hi

39:32

why did exist to their own right not

39:34

just find it exists or

39:36

mail bodies really start to

39:39

eliza there's so much more going on

39:41

yeah

39:43

similarly it we found out that eggs are

39:45

not just passively waiting for sperm to arrive

39:47

like third knights in shining armor it is kind

39:49

of the textbook metaphor that we see

39:51

it but it's actually this to the process

39:53

of fertilization is a much more active

39:55

chemical dialogue between the sperm

39:57

and yeah

39:59

the traditional story

39:59

in many text books are censored

40:02

from are like nuclear warhead and

40:04

they know exactly where they're going and they're

40:06

very purposeful and they seek

40:08

out the aig and it and it treated

40:10

really there's a lot more going on

40:13

one the fluids and the female

40:15

body so and vagina and to

40:18

they allow the start the capacity

40:20

which makes it able to

40:22

bolland the chemical signals that the egg

40:24

really thing and not see anything so

40:26

the a that we don't fully understand it

40:28

yet but it's putting out a call

40:30

the point is burned where it is and

40:32

without that called the sperm would have no idea which

40:34

is keep fumbling about and would probably never

40:36

got the earth and the aid has parts

40:39

in this like it has kind of these little tiny

40:41

had the gold on it service at how

40:43

grab this from and told in this

40:45

is a dialogue with to have

40:48

i want to move on to talking about pleasure

40:51

i you mention the clitoral which it

40:53

has all these nickname throughout history about how small

40:55

it is you know it's like a nerve it's a button

40:58

etc now we know it has

41:00

this vast internal structure with

41:02

comparable erect how capacity

41:04

to the penis but how did researchers

41:07

finally figure this out

41:09

people like to say that the clitoral what

41:11

is for we discovered in like two

41:14

thousand and five that's not quite

41:16

true it was kind of

41:18

covering rediscovered many times

41:20

over the past millennium so you

41:22

can find drawings from the eighteen

41:24

hundreds by german an ominous that

41:27

show with pretty

41:28

the detail these erectile

41:30

body so there's to kind of like to

41:32

that forbes that hugged a vagina

41:35

and then there's to flaring arms to go back

41:37

into the past

41:37

in their each made a different types of erectile

41:39

tissue

41:41

what happened with

41:43

that understanding of a quitter is is not what

41:45

went mainstream and what caught on

41:47

there was an australian urology

41:50

o'connell she's actually the first female

41:52

urologist and all of australia

41:54

the and when she was

41:56

to medical school she was seeing these kind of

41:58

textbooks that the

41:59

have anything about the clutter is or if

42:02

they did they would use this derogatory language

42:04

like this failure to develop or

42:06

the poor hallmark of the penis

42:08

like that

42:09

she wanted to figure out like what with

42:11

the truth that li between these

42:13

feminists interpretations and her texts

42:16

the way she did that was by dissecting a

42:18

lot of quitters

42:20

the and using the new are tools that were

42:22

available to her so like m r i

42:24

imaging micro dissection

42:26

where she pieces together she did fun

42:28

dot there was this kind of underground

42:31

king

42:31

the brink of the clitoral

42:34

that made it

42:35

and kind bigger than what most people tended

42:37

to think the and one really

42:39

important innovation

42:41

she had was those foods that i mention

42:43

that can hug the vagina and can feel like

42:46

they've been called all sorts of things they've been called

42:48

like bolts of the vagina both that the best sport

42:50

and a lot of male mountainous for likely

42:52

either because they're supposed to hug the penis

42:54

and it's first to give pleasure to the man

42:57

looking at their anatomy they were clearly part

42:59

of the clitoral

43:00

by looking at this as one unified

43:03

for and not a bunch of disparate parts

43:06

it made it clear that this was a much

43:08

larger organ that had a very

43:10

important purpose to give pleasure to the person

43:12

who it was a

43:13

the and

43:15

that it just looked very unlike what

43:17

everyone is thinking you're right about researchers

43:19

who want to prevent early menopause and cancer

43:22

patients surgeons who are working to restore

43:24

pleasure for women who were subjected to genital

43:26

cutting or intersects people whose genitalia

43:29

were altered at birth dr mercy

43:31

bowers the first transgender woman to perform

43:33

gender affirmation surgeries and

43:35

he right that she someone who's really working hard to change

43:37

the conversation for what

43:40

trans women might want from their new vagina

43:42

as on can you say more about the

43:45

the

43:46

that women aren't really central

43:48

to the stop for a variety of

43:50

reasons like one their women

43:52

who have been especially misunderstood by medicine

43:55

and science

43:57

you know

43:58

those misunderstandings rubio

43:59

a lot about what science

44:02

thinks about women and what women are stored

44:04

the and

44:05

the

44:06

when will this worked at people like doctor

44:08

bowers are doing on

44:10

to create

44:12

join in football those

44:13

are really showing

44:16

how remarkable these organs are and all

44:17

though how similar they are

44:20

to what we think of

44:22

the opposite sex than until yeah

44:24

i'm by doctor dollars

44:26

likes to talk about in the beginning

44:28

the agenda operation surgery

44:30

the entire approach in

44:32

his early days was incredibly

44:34

male centric

44:36

fumed that any trans woman

44:38

was

44:39

heterosexual wanted to be in

44:41

release with a man usually married

44:43

the com and both by surgeons at the time was

44:45

that your husband won't even know the difference

44:48

you can see like who's being centered

44:50

and my cpu this vagina was for

44:52

and i would really struck talking to

44:54

doctor bowers

44:56

image she described

44:58

the surgery that you performed

45:00

the feds first a quarter and some central

45:02

it's not an afterthought like it used to be

45:05

by the time you're done he

45:07

should have sensitivity

45:08

experience pleasure and experience orgasm

45:11

she waited we had taken as from being like

45:13

an afterthought to really centering the patient

45:16

themselves

45:17

the and how they feel in

45:19

there embodied south

45:21

in perform reason that she's

45:22

want to create center in functional

45:24

put her it's it's like

45:26

pasadena

45:27

how similar male female bodies

45:29

ourselves

45:31

going back to all of those identical

45:33

erectile tissue an identical

45:36

structures that surgeons can

45:38

do

45:38

like to turn vagina declares

45:40

it

45:40

into pieces and testicles and vice

45:42

versa just in case he just joined us i'm christie

45:45

taylor and this the science friday from w n

45:47

y c studios

45:49

talking to rachel ie growth author of the book

45:51

vagina obscure and anatomical

45:53

voyage

45:54

the a week we're in a moment where a bodily autonomy

45:57

around anything perceived to be sexual

45:59

or gender really it is really under attack

46:01

are trans kids and teens are seeing

46:03

their options for affirming health care shrink dozens

46:06

of faith no longer allow abortion and there's this

46:08

cascade of possible other health

46:11

care that is also harder to access now

46:13

to where said this

46:15

indepth research informed the lawmakers

46:17

who are outlying

46:19

i'm very basic freedoms at this point

46:22

yeah it's a dark time

46:25

what i've been thinking about alive

46:27

watching we've kind of headlines

46:29

that is fundamental

46:31

over simplification that

46:33

bodies with uterus as are

46:36

to reproduce and that induction

46:39

is kind of the sole focus of

46:41

conflation of organ

46:43

really need blinding a lot

46:45

of people

46:47

or capacity of our bodies

46:49

though

46:50

the kind of researchers said i was

46:53

falling around for the sport for

46:55

saying

46:56

what else to these organ during are

46:59

you are it helped as a whole how are they

47:01

really deeply involved in immunity

47:03

and regeneration

47:05

in billion

47:06

and how are they all interconnected

47:08

in supporting your house

47:10

if you think about what happens when you take out like

47:12

see the ovaries you lose

47:15

this powerful system of hormone

47:17

production that support

47:19

your brain your bones

47:21

your heart

47:23

those organs are just there to create

47:25

a baby you and to work for

47:27

nine month and then just sit around

47:29

the and then thing people from accessing

47:32

the health care they need for these organ no

47:35

openly affect their entire bodies and

47:37

their entire lifelong help

47:40

though i think we need to take

47:42

a much wider lens as to the

47:44

importance of what we think of as reproductive

47:46

organ and really value

47:48

the ball

47:50

sexuality and experience of their own

47:52

sexuality as well as all

47:54

organ are interconnected and contribute

47:57

to overall health

47:58

what mystery is still remain friends

47:59

the understand about the vagina and it's companions

48:03

oh my gosh

48:04

though man

48:05

the uterus is no pun intended

48:08

are really fertile ground for research

48:10

that has nothing to do with reproduction

48:12

so i have a whole chapter looking at how

48:15

researchers have misunderstood endometriosis

48:18

which is a super common painful disease

48:20

when cells that are similar to those

48:22

of the uterine lining and an escape and

48:24

other parts that bothers or even as far as

48:26

like the brain and the

48:29

agreed to pitch name is really

48:31

dynamic cycle growth and

48:33

setting but usually happens within the uterus

48:35

and it really has a lot to teach us about

48:38

just universal prophecies of regeneration

48:40

and scarless wound healing

48:43

because when the uterus heals itself

48:45

after it every cured adminstration

48:48

it's is really neat process

48:51

that we haven't looked at as closely as

48:53

we could

48:54

the more we're we're still learning a lot

48:56

about the bachelor microbiology and were also

48:58

learning that it has a big import

49:01

and a lot to say about the penile

49:03

microbiome and that that's actually important to

49:05

for protection and

49:06

the disease transmission

49:08

it's not just the we had this huge

49:11

gap and female hell

49:12

the and of understanding about bodies of those

49:15

caught women there's is larger dialogue

49:17

what we understand about all bodies and we're missing

49:19

a huge chunk and therefore our

49:21

whole understanding is skewed so

49:24

it's like we've only heard one side of a telephone

49:26

hundred station how can we think that the

49:28

science of the human body is complete

49:30

that way

49:31

rachel i look forward to reading your next

49:33

book about all of these mr his thank

49:35

you so much simpler joining us today

49:38

it gives a much for having me christie

49:40

rachel he growth is a science journalist

49:42

and author of the book vagina obscure

49:44

out and anatomical voyage she joy

49:47

the from new york

49:48

one more thing before we go maybe you're ready

49:50

to pick up rachel's book right now but you

49:52

can't think of someone in your life for you can talk

49:54

about vagina with maybe you just don't

49:57

have a place to share your questions or i'm all

49:59

over your thoughts you're reading we

50:01

have you covered readers the sci fi

50:03

book club will be reading vagina obscura

50:05

together this september you can

50:07

find out how to join our online community

50:09

read an excerpt and even enter to win

50:11

a free book yes on our website science

50:14

friday dot com slash vagina that

50:16

is science friday dot com slash

50:18

vagina

50:19

i'm christine taylor

50:21

what do you think about a lot

50:23

and need

50:29

honey in an interview podcast featuring

50:31

in usually personal conversations

50:34

and , first time in my life i

50:36

do not need a man to

50:39

be whole and that's what our

50:41

lives is supposed to be about and manitex

50:43

works and doesn't just happen

50:46

i'm anna sale find that sex

50:48

and money wherever you get your podcast