0:00

for thousands of years have been anything

0:02

we can think of it that disease from radiolab

0:05

the story of modern day who

0:07

takes on an ancient disease and it's

0:09

bleak odds find rodney

0:11

be death on radiolab where we get

0:13

podcast

0:18

list

0:18

of supported wnycstudios

0:23

this

0:23

is science friday i'm ira flatow a

0:26

bit later in the how climate change

0:28

may be killing more fish, and

0:30

why we might be facing a looming software

0:33

shortage less a drop in on a herd

0:35

of goats chewing away some invasive

0:37

species but first as

0:39

first as home across specific booster shots

0:41

the sars covina to unroll nationwide

0:45

new research on the long term consequences

0:47

of cove it suggests another reason

0:49

to avoid infection a

0:52

team writing and nature medicine describes

0:54

finding a large proportion of heart

0:56

problems and patience recovering

0:59

from cove it even months

1:01

or even a year later he

1:03

to explain more mega kurth size

1:05

journalist for a five thirty eight he

1:08

joins be from minneapolis both

1:10

emphasize friday welcome back by

1:12

thank you so much i'm happy to be here

1:14

nice have your let's look at this peggy

1:17

go what kinds of heart problems are we

1:19

talking about

1:20

yeah so we're talking

1:22

about things like palpitations

1:24

chest pain shortness of

1:26

breath a small minority of people

1:29

in the study we're experiencing were serious things

1:31

like painting and this is out of

1:33

three hundred and forty six previously

1:36

healthy people

1:36

the who were followed up with

1:39

over the course of about

1:41

a year after

1:42

they had a covert in section

1:45

the study found that seventy three percent of

1:47

them had these symptoms but

1:49

three months after infection and fifty

1:52

seven percent were still showing signs

1:54

of

1:54

these kind of complications a year

1:56

after cove

1:58

that is amazing do we have any sense

1:59

that we could look out for the symptoms

2:02

that we're talking about you know where we're talking about things that

2:04

would be noticeable your heart is racing

2:06

or your head

2:07

chest pain or shortness of breath but

2:09

i think like what was really interesting is that when

2:12

they put these people also through blood markers

2:14

and m our eyes what

2:16

they were finding is that they were suffering from inflammation

2:19

of heart tissue so this is something

2:21

that you're having external symptoms of

2:23

but it's also something

2:26

that is happening inside

2:28

her did did it matter if people were

2:30

vaccinated or not

2:32

we don't know be screenings well happening

2:34

between april twenty twenty and october

2:36

of twenty twenty one so people were

2:38

in the study were getting vaccinated during that time

2:41

but because some of them had gotten

2:43

vaccinated after their infections

2:45

that gotten vaccinated before that just wasn't

2:47

a good baseline said do that

2:49

mean of research from same age

2:51

or gender any differences a

2:53

large proportion of them were when

2:55

and this is also what's

2:58

happening in people who are fairly young you know this is not

3:00

something

3:01

that people were suffering from who

3:03

were older and can a more likely to have

3:05

club complications

3:06

again with the average age

3:08

around forty three

3:09

wow hi to this tells us something about

3:11

long coveted and maybe sets

3:13

up more of a red flag for it then

3:15

we were talking about before

3:18

yeah i know heart issues these

3:20

are just one of some two hundred

3:22

different symptoms that have been connected to

3:24

long colbert as a syndrome part

3:26

of the best

3:27

we have here is just trying to figure

3:30

out what is happening

3:32

what is likely how me

3:33

will have it and those estimates are

3:35

still all over the place see if some studies

3:37

that are saying like thirty percent of people are

3:39

having symptoms of long coded twenty

3:42

four weeks after infection and some

3:44

cities say up to seventy percent in that line

3:46

period and you about this new study

3:48

out of china that sounds fifty five

3:51

percent of people having at least one symptom

3:53

two years after infection there's

3:55

a freelance journalist in be a safer who has safer great

3:58

piece right now in the proceedings

4:00

of the national academy of sciences net

4:03

kind of some help a lot of what's

4:05

going on with this long covered research

4:08

one the big take away his right now is that science

4:10

is still getting it's had wrapped around this thing

4:12

right right by will have a link to that

4:14

story and our website let's move

4:16

on to another story last

4:18

week you know we talked about the scary sounding

4:20

phenomenon of the zombie ice

4:23

in greenland which you have an update

4:25

on a different story from the other side

4:27

of the world the so called doomsday

4:30

glacier thwaites

4:32

in red arctic is all have

4:34

such cinematic name that other stuff he

4:37

, tell us about that one

4:39

the weights glacier is a massive

4:42

hunk of ice that just kind of hangs off the

4:44

side of and doctor screwed into the sea

4:46

floor not onto the land and

4:48

it's about the size of florida so

4:50

if it all completely melted it could raise

4:52

sea levels by as much as ten feet and

4:55

already this one glaciers melt

4:58

accounts for four percent of annual sea

5:00

level rise so this is

5:02

something that scientists are paying attention

5:04

to pretty intensely and

5:06

it's not enormous a doomsday

5:08

we're talking about talking about size we're talking

5:11

about the risks that it could pose

5:13

we're not talking about like an immediate threat your

5:15

arm and one of the things they found out

5:17

recently by looking at these ridges that

5:20

were left in the sea floor by movement

5:22

of the glacier kind of going

5:23

down with daily title rise

5:25

and fall is ,

5:27

there was a five and a half month

5:29

period as that could

5:32

have happened as recently as

5:34

mid twentieth century when

5:36

this thing was retreating thing

5:38

at retreating double of what has

5:40

been observed in

5:42

most recent years really yeah

5:44

so we know that it can not much faster

5:47

then it is right now the

5:49

good news is it is not melting that's

5:51

how

5:52

right now but

5:54

scientists have also documented in recent

5:56

years that this things been hello

5:58

out fumble low because

5:59

again it's sitting kind of right

6:02

on the water and as that water worms

6:04

it's intruding into the base

6:07

of the glacier so and

6:08

when he nineteen they found a cavity the size

6:10

of manhattan

6:11

the underside of this thing

6:14

yeah

6:15

they're really worried that it could break away

6:17

from the antarctic coast and just a few years

6:20

that's incredible it seems like out

6:22

call it a doomsday glacier because of you get

6:24

a ten foot sea level rise is gonna be doomsday

6:26

it's for a lot of people living on the shorelines

6:29

of places

6:30

the lot of the world's population

6:32

dance live on the shore nasa places her

6:34

let's stay in the ocean for a moment because you have

6:36

a story about the genetics of an animal

6:38

called the immortal jellyfish is is

6:41

it really immortal

6:42

kind of if their body

6:44

gets sufficiently damaged these jellyfish

6:46

can just turned back into a baby and grow

6:48

again now they are still

6:50

edible of course and

6:53

they could also be injured in ways that can

6:55

lead to death so they're not like completely

6:57

immortal but they don't have to worry

7:00

about the slow decline of all age

7:02

and that naturally makes some really

7:04

interesting to a certain intelligence

7:06

the sees that does have to worry about the slow

7:08

decline of old age

7:10

could that be i wonder sassy

7:12

yeah yeah he's software and

7:15

scientists have gotten

7:17

this better understand

7:19

what's going on in the genes

7:21

of these jellyfish as they be grown now so they

7:23

went to the coast of italy they captured

7:25

some immortal jellyfish they triggered

7:27

this rejuvenation process by withholding

7:29

food and as these jellyfish

7:32

were shrinking back into little balls and starting

7:34

to regret

7:34

the scientists were taking samples

7:37

at each stage mushing them up and

7:39

extracting are in a to study what's

7:41

changing genetically during that time

7:43

what is it they're sort of fun the thing is that

7:46

there's not a single james governing

7:48

and mortar

7:48

the emmys jellyfish that

7:50

it's more that there are duplicate some

7:53

jeans and

7:53

looting ones that repair dna

7:56

and they're turning jeans on and off at

7:58

different stages so

7:59

genes associated with pluripotency

8:03

which , the ability of he knows baby

8:05

cells to grow into lots of different

8:07

adult cells instead of just one

8:09

kind of sell those go dormant

8:12

as this animal ages just like ours do

8:14

but then they can kick back on when it's time

8:16

to regrow

8:17

that's v benjamin button of jellyfish

8:21

and as yeah kind have another

8:23

gene story is out there about something

8:25

else had slowed surround but in zero

8:27

gravity and i'm talking about astronauts

8:30

and and genetic changes in astronauts

8:33

tell us about that

8:34

yeah so scientists

8:36

to these decades old blood samples from

8:38

astronauts before they flew in space and

8:40

after they had and the from

8:42

people who flew this on the space shuttle between ninety

8:45

ninety eight and two thousand and one

8:46

they're finding that basically everyone who goes

8:49

up comes back changed in some small way

8:52

now , were not big alterations

8:54

the scientists don't think anyone's long term

8:56

health is likely to be threatened but

8:59

it shows that exposure to radiation and

9:01

space has an impact and it has that

9:03

even on young exceptionally

9:05

healthy people like

9:07

people we sent into space and

9:09

, changes that we're seeing

9:11

in the samples i'm the kind

9:13

of things you'd expect to seen adults who are a lot

9:15

older than the astronauts were you know the median

9:18

age was forty two and these samples

9:20

and they're showing genetic mutations that you

9:22

would expect an elderly people

9:25

one of the things that these scientists say

9:27

that we're really taking away from this is that anybody

9:30

who's going into space

9:30

for long stretches for these moon basis

9:32

for these trips to mars they're going to

9:34

need detailed regular health screenings

9:37

and we're also going to need to make

9:39

sure that we are limiting

9:41

the amount of time

9:43

you're in space based on a

9:45

yeah well we haven't

9:47

figured that one out yet either halfway

9:49

seven

9:49

thankfully that is not yet actually the eight

9:51

eight and a suddenly a problem

9:53

it didn't yeah more something to look forward to oh one

9:56

more one more piece of news and this was really

9:58

interesting

9:59

human amputations were successfully

10:02

done thousands of years earlier

10:05

than we thought they were diseases

10:07

house diseases good news

10:08

if you are an ancient

10:11

human who needs your foot amputated yeah

10:13

that's great news city

10:16

yeah that used to be around

10:18

is that medicine emerged alongside

10:20

agricultural societies and

10:23

previously the oldest evidence of amputation

10:25

that we had was had seven thousand year

10:27

old skeleton

10:29

the neolithic farmer and what

10:31

is now france the

10:33

researchers found the skeleton in borneo

10:36

that appears to had a foot amputated and

10:38

lived to tell about it and it happened

10:40

thirty one thousand

10:42

the years ago while had a we had

10:44

we know that this actually happened

10:46

so again this is pretty

10:49

cool cities researchers are

10:51

they went and consulted with

10:54

doctors and scientists who actually study

10:58

the education and bone growth after amputations

11:00

what happens to your body in

11:02

, wake of that and they

11:04

took they skeleton

11:06

this whole lower left leg was completely

11:08

gone and there is a kind of bony growth

11:10

that was left at the place with a live was missing

11:13

and be scientists that studies own

11:15

is now we're able to say

11:17

like this looks like what

11:19

happens when you surgically oh man

11:22

and it's different what you see with

11:25

an accidental them loss so

11:27

it's suggests that this was not just like somebody

11:30

that got their foot trapped in something or

11:32

that got eaten off by saber toothed tiger

11:34

this low

11:35

like actual intentional cutting

11:38

and what

11:39

you in calmness looks like after that

11:41

and because of how much

11:43

growth is on that bone

11:45

it also suggests that press lived for at least six

11:48

years after they lost their foot

11:50

wow and we of course we don't know

11:52

what happened to the person after he or she

11:54

lost that first so no we don't know

11:56

but we're doing

11:57

is that there's no sign and

11:59

the bone of infection

11:59

which is also a really big deal

12:02

because that implies not proof

12:04

but it implies that whoever was doing

12:06

this amputation or

12:08

so knew something about how to

12:10

use the plant biodiversity around

12:12

them to prevent infection well i

12:14

hope they learned how to use the plant bio

12:16

diversity is around them for

12:19

anesthetics because i can imagine

12:21

have having a cessation without anesthetic

12:23

son has been does it's

12:25

done any many times and it

12:27

does not sound

12:27

i'm begging you always sound

12:29

like fine thank you for a second have to be

12:32

with us today thank you so much baggage

12:34

her aside certain list for five thirty

12:36

eight based in minneapolis we

12:38

have to take a break and let me come back or talk

12:40

about why thousands of dead sis

12:43

have been washing up in the bay area

12:45

stay with us

12:46

dr laura santos the

12:49

the happiness lab podcast

12:50

the sure it prevents the latest science based

12:53

strategies to help us live happier more

12:55

joyful my the next

12:57

season at the happiness

12:59

we'll explore how to make me

13:01

you can't answer

13:04

and my drinking the world's hottest hot sauce

13:06

in be fun

13:08

oh my god hi

13:13

into the happiness laugh

13:15

wherever you you get your podcast

13:17

the side friday i am i replayed out and

13:20

now it's time to check in on the state of

13:22

science isn't yours

13:24

there be an hour north public reason i would have

13:26

the own his local science

13:29

stories of national significance he

13:31

may have seen pictures of what's happening what's happening bay

13:33

area around san francisco thousands

13:36

of dead serious disease

13:38

washing ashore what in the world

13:40

is happening join you may now to

13:43

explain this fish tail is my guest

13:45

leslie mclaren health correspondent for

13:47

kid cudi public radio in

13:49

san francisco welcome to science friday

13:52

thanks for having me

13:53

you're welcome okay so why do people

13:55

start to notice this die off

13:57

so about a month ago i would

13:59

say

13:59

the started to notice that the water started to turn

14:02

red and then as then weeks progress

14:04

forward it started to go from red to brown

14:07

and then i was actually out there about there about and a half ago

14:09

and it was this kind of chocolate syrup

14:12

color i mean not the entire bay the markets

14:14

of the bay and with kinda lapping up on

14:16

my on my paddle board and so

14:19

it's over the weeks over the last

14:21

few weeks gotten worse and worse until it's pretty

14:23

murky dance color in in

14:25

many areas of the back

14:27

is it worth as was going to ask as

14:29

if the whole day or just in some parts of the bay

14:32

i mean it's just in some parts of the bay but

14:34

it is proliferated out

14:36

into all parts of the bank so even though it's

14:38

not chocolate brown in every part of the bay

14:40

there is chocolaty browns areas

14:43

you know as far from san jose to

14:45

valais home to out to the golden

14:47

gate bridge so all across the bay and

14:49

then even into estuaries

14:51

that into the bay is connected to so for example

14:54

there's a really bad read tired or

14:56

this algal bloom in lake merritt

14:58

which is in downtown oakland is that lakers connected

15:00

the bay so let's get into why this is happening

15:02

what are the scientists say

15:04

there's probably a couple of factors at play

15:06

here they don't know exactly why but probably

15:08

climate change is a factor here because

15:10

we had one of the driest warmest

15:13

winters on records or didn't read it all

15:15

or almost not at all january february march

15:17

which is really unusual that means those

15:19

were hot sunny days which warmed up the water

15:21

this time of year and there was no fresh water

15:23

runoff during that time this year so

15:25

that's that's we've got warmer water but

15:27

the primary the even that has probably been

15:30

is happening in scientists have been morning

15:32

about this potential for for you is

15:35

that we are kind crime and for

15:37

a red tide is the fact that there

15:39

are forty wastewater treatment

15:41

plants that discharge into the bay

15:43

and those wastewater treatment plants clean the

15:45

sewage they removed the bacteria in the solids

15:48

but they do not filter out the nutrients

15:51

so you got a lot of nitrogen and phosphorus

15:54

that is being discharged and of the bay and

15:56

algae love to eat that turn

15:58

so referred kind of this that republican

16:00

voters a cocktail

16:02

absolutely has

16:03

like it's happened before in the bay

16:05

not to this level so silly com

16:08

and to have small algal blooms along

16:10

the shoreline or around marinas but

16:12

we've never seen something that's lasted this

16:14

long or is as widespread

16:17

as what we're seeing right now

16:18

no kidding so what fisher affected

16:20

as and everything

16:21

it's really really sad and everything

16:23

from anchovies in a worms

16:25

clams muscles but all

16:27

the way up into the food chain and taking

16:30

about race sharks and were even seeing

16:32

six foot long white sturgeon and

16:34

even greens dirt and which are federally protected

16:37

and it's just tragic to see these giant

16:40

fish in a washing up on the shore

16:42

it's it's a really really kind of emotional

16:44

experience to wash this matter what this

16:47

much marine life die

16:48

that is really sad

16:50

the i know that to you went out to lake

16:52

merritt you mentioned by merit to check it out

16:55

i did and i taught her woman their

16:57

am who i think had captured the sentiment

16:59

of what i was experiencing i i walk into

17:02

the shoreline and it was just got

17:04

wrenching and i type of this woman named laura bagley

17:06

she's a volunteer their and this

17:08

is what she said i just

17:10

started sobbing when i realized

17:13

the enormity of

17:14

that they're literally dying

17:17

like at our feet i feel like an

17:19

emotional wrecks yeah

17:21

so you know her emotional experience was

17:23

wet a lot of people who were standing long

17:25

as shoreline were experiencing they were either splitting

17:27

their nose and sort of disgusted by the whole situation

17:30

or just extremely

17:33

saddened by the fact that you know it looks

17:35

like leave kind of floating on the surface

17:37

of the lake but it was actually just massive

17:39

numbers assess floating along the lake and

17:42

just on one day alone and a shovel

17:44

twelve hundred pounds of fish out

17:46

of the lake and thousands and thousands of pounds

17:49

you know or of fish are dead and

17:51

that the thing that scientists keep pointing out to

17:53

me is that as just on the surface

17:55

most fish has have drowned

17:57

and so that the bottom of the lakes and the bottom

17:59

of the

17:59

they they fear or just enough

18:02

feet

18:02

wow feet of dead fast this is this is

18:04

like a horror movie you know it

18:07

it

18:07

i know like apocalypse a l omaha

18:09

apocalyptic it's it's horrendous

18:11

yeah and what what is it is it

18:13

dangerous for people are other animals

18:15

it's not dangerous dangerous

18:17

for people but they are warning soaks

18:19

to stay out of the water because you can irritate

18:22

your skin and can irritate your eyes and kind

18:24

of have an allergic reaction to the water we

18:26

don't actually know is it's going to move it's

18:28

way through the food chain you know say that can affect

18:30

birds as again effect larger marine life like

18:32

seals we don't actually know because this

18:35

kind of algae is not super well

18:37

studied and especially the levels that we're

18:39

seeing it out so there's a bit of an unknown

18:41

hear that were munich and router was going

18:43

forward

18:44

speaking of the unknown do we know the sequence

18:46

of how this plays out i any idea

18:48

what's going to happen next

18:50

it's a great question i think we all hope

18:52

that this is a wake up call that we do something about

18:54

the issue i'd have to say

18:56

to succeed shoes he's the executive director

18:58

for the environmental group heaven cisco baykeeper

19:01

and she pointed out that the issue

19:03

really here is that we've got to get filtration systems

19:06

on all of these plan and

19:08

what we really need to be doing is

19:10

investing in our infrastructure so

19:12

that we can upgrade those plants san

19:15

francisco has some of the worse

19:17

water recycling programs of

19:19

anywhere in california the

19:22

problem is that that's going to take a lotta time and

19:24

money and it's not an immediate solution but

19:26

if they can upgrade these plants

19:28

and still trade out those nutrients than week at

19:30

least have a lever that we can control

19:33

so that we potentially going forward won't have

19:35

an issue like this again but it's gonna take

19:37

millions of dollars and you know lots of stakeholders

19:40

have to be on board to make that happen

19:42

you know what am i take it might take a this

19:44

being the new normal where you see it happening

19:46

more and more over the years as climate

19:48

change progress as that's that's something

19:50

we probably can expect right

19:52

unfortunately yeah they say warmer water

19:55

we could cds in a more frequently going

19:57

forward and theory and fortunately the

20:00

the recliner wake up call that are at their you know hopefully

20:03

motivate us towards accent so we'll we'll

20:05

see

20:05

people got out just a look at the at

20:08

they then they huge amount of dying

20:10

fish

20:11

there was a huge group of people

20:13

when i went to look at lake merritt the other day just

20:15

standing there taking photos and it's

20:17

been quite the viral social media

20:19

picks are explosion because it's it's so

20:21

horrific

20:23

wow thank you leslie no no my trip to

20:25

san francisco i never would

20:27

imagine seeing something like this thank you for

20:29

telling us about it

20:31

thank you for having me

20:32

lima cleric his house correspondent

20:34

for cake you a d public radio in san

20:37

francisco

20:38

the story is part of our state

20:40

of science series where we track

20:43

local science stories of national

20:45

significance and we wanna know

20:47

what's going on in your area

20:50

please tell us what local science

20:52

or environments stories are you keeping

20:54

an eye on

20:55

tell us tell us on the side fry vox

20:58

pop

20:59

wherever you get your apps

21:04

it's not just the bay area suffering the

21:07

effects of climate change we're not going to head to

21:09

the upper mid west where new research

21:11

predict how warming temperatures will

21:13

make the problem worse joining

21:15

me to talk about this assignment type

21:17

phd candidate in biology at

21:20

the university of arkansas in say itself

21:23

welcome to science friday thank you

21:25

i'm happy to be here then you set the same

21:27

for assignment exactly what

21:29

were you analyzing in this study yes

21:32

we're we compiles the this

21:34

mortality events across

21:36

the weights in wisconsin and minnesota

21:39

and associated those events that were caused

21:41

by warm temperature with conrad temperatures

21:44

so he could predict into the future how

21:46

many events might happen

21:47

and i'm guessing that the results

21:49

didn't turn out well what did

21:51

you find in your analysis

21:53

no not particularly are we found

21:56

that's under the worst climate change scenario

21:59

rcp a

21:59

were applied

22:01

you can expect to probably a six

22:03

hundred percent increase in the frequency

22:05

of these events the by the end of the century

22:08

six

22:09

six times right six hundred

22:11

percent by the end of this alexander for

22:13

a while yes

22:14

you you talk about summer kills

22:17

and winter kills are these normal

22:19

i they routine things that happen in the fish

22:21

world ah yes summer tills

22:23

in winter kills or com and terms used

22:26

refer to mortalities caused

22:28

by seasonal temperatures

22:30

the civic leave warm temperatures in

22:32

summertime and cooler temperatures

22:34

in the wintertime they are routine things

22:37

that i'm but their frequency and magnitude

22:39

is probably changing quite a bit

22:41

with warming temperatures and these

22:44

these so

22:45

the lot of the normal range in your predictions

22:47

are in the study predictions yes they do

22:49

with increasing temperatures we expect to see

22:51

an increase with the amount of six mortality

22:54

such as were sitting in san francisco in

22:57

part because said shown expected

22:59

to evolve

23:00

higher thermal tolerances at the rate

23:02

that the climate is changing

23:04

simon walk us through specifically

23:07

why it is that these mortality events

23:09

would happen so much more frequently there

23:11

are several deleterious environmental conditions

23:13

associated with a warming climate that can

23:16

directly such that what we're

23:18

seeing in san francisco right now is due

23:20

to a harmful algal bloom which

23:22

can either the toxins

23:24

up through of food web such that there's

23:26

toxic algae that's eaten by the xo plankton

23:29

and the fish which can cause harm

23:31

to the so plankton fish often resulting

23:33

immortality or just

23:35

the fact that the waters warming that

23:37

can cause direct thermal stress and

23:39

it is simply too hot for the fish to persist

23:42

and lastly all these conditions reduce

23:45

the dissolved oxygen concentration within

23:47

the water bodies which can result

23:49

in session other organisms

23:51

literally suffocating in the water is it because

23:54

the fish can survive in the hotter temperatures

23:56

yes that there are several reasons why they

23:58

die that one is direct

23:59

the holsters

24:01

this the actual warmer temperature and then

24:03

there's also indirect effects associated

24:05

with that such as lower dissolved

24:07

oxygen concentration

24:09

the results and many of the aquatic organisms

24:12

literally suffocating in the water suffocating

24:15

and the water he does does this

24:17

happen to all fish are or

24:19

are some fish more susceptible than

24:21

others

24:22

most of the documented of then so affected

24:25

warm water fish or fish with high

24:27

thermal tolerances however

24:30

than one of the important findings are

24:32

study is that similar temperature

24:34

deviations can affect both warm

24:36

and cold water fish in

24:38

bad faith and face to face of all

24:40

ages yes fish of all ages mainly

24:43

will record as the adults that are visible

24:45

to the human eye however earlier

24:48

life stages such as juveniles and embryos

24:50

are particularly sensitive to warm temperature

24:53

and we may not be able to recover those

24:55

and documents

24:57

that they're the worst you know stage

24:59

of life to die right of you're not going to get any new fish

25:02

right right yeah it can as severe

25:04

effects on population growth over time and

25:06

if the fisher going to be dying so much more

25:09

how could that affects the the rest of

25:11

the ecosystem it will likely

25:13

destabilize the system to degree

25:16

most ecosystems function better

25:18

and are more stable when they have the

25:21

pieces of the food web and a lot

25:23

of a fish dying or move much of that predation

25:26

these are assistance

25:28

the exercise friday from w n y c

25:30

studios

25:32

the talking to biologists simon tie

25:34

about fish die offs due to climate

25:36

change he's based in say it

25:38

feel arkansas there

25:41

any parts of the mid west that are more

25:43

susceptible than other parts of

25:45

our research showed that there is a

25:47

appreciable latitudinal gradient such

25:49

that southern locations are more apt to have

25:52

these events however another

25:54

key finding of our paper is that this

25:56

mortalities occurred similar temperature deviations

26:00

which implies the local heat waves

26:02

like much of what the u s ah throughout

26:04

the summer

26:05

cause mortality is regardless

26:07

of location and how much of a

26:09

of a temperature he wages attack that's

26:12

a that's a very good question it could

26:14

probably be around

26:16

the critical thermal maximum for cold

26:18

water fish

26:19

which is the temperature that they can persist

26:21

and a water body however

26:23

for a warm water fish mortality is occurred

26:26

it's about five to ten degrees

26:28

below their critical thermal max so

26:32

and in other words if

26:34

you have probably , to ten

26:36

degrees above average that

26:39

can lead to lead maternal mortality

26:41

are we talking about the the great lakes

26:44

here also or is that a whole different story

26:46

the the great lakes the whole different story

26:49

because there's a lot more intricacies

26:51

of modeling on temperature dynamics

26:54

in those large bodies of water compared

26:56

to smaller parties water what body of

26:58

water would we know of that would be

27:00

most effective bomb they can

27:02

happen all over the place maybe

27:05

lake of the ozarks is ozarks larger lake

27:07

and missouri north of where we are then

27:10

i wouldn't be surprised if these events happened

27:12

throughout the u s and there was a similar

27:14

back to san francisco that happened along

27:17

the major river between germany and poland about

27:19

a month ago

27:20

there was tens of thousands or hundreds

27:22

of thousands of fish and that now be

27:24

comparable to amass die off and the missouri

27:27

relative to north america

27:29

as someone who studies this i imagine

27:31

this is really concerning for you it

27:34

is concerning the reason i chose

27:36

the study this topic and similar topic

27:38

says similar want people understand

27:40

the implications of implications warming climate and

27:43

realize what the effects could be when

27:45

their children grow older yeah and i'm someone

27:48

who is younger and is going to be living

27:51

the effects of climate change is there

27:53

anything you think that could

27:55

be done to reverse this prediction

27:58

the most to we can do as a society

27:59

it's just an act more sustainable policies

28:03

the i don't know if there's anything an individual

28:05

level you can necessarily do besides

28:08

noticing these events and reporting them to

28:10

the authorities but it

28:12

it's more of a societal issue that

28:14

we need to address

28:15

there was not something that the fish could possibly

28:18

evolve to handle know from

28:20

what we've from what we've learned so far

28:22

about six evolving higher thermal tolerances

28:25

is that the rates much lower

28:27

the rate of increase in temperature so

28:29

they won't be able of all fast enough if you

28:32

so what's happening big

28:34

fish kills happening in the san francisco

28:37

bay area is sort of

28:39

for well portends

28:41

what's gonna happen on another places

28:43

around the upper midwest yes

28:45

yes and the what know eric think

28:47

about it is the past generations

28:50

learned about the chesapeake bay and environmental

28:52

degradation there

28:54

for my generation i learned a lot about

28:56

the dead zone in the gulf of mexico then

28:58

i think future generations are gonna learn a lot

29:01

about it's just the fact that tissue declining

29:03

globally and not necessarily about a specific

29:05

location necessarily

29:07

yeah as someone who has lived through those

29:09

i i think you're right and i want to thank

29:11

you simon for taking time to be with his today

29:14

they do is my pleasure same anti

29:17

phd candidate in biology

29:19

at the university of arkansas in

29:21

say it cel we have to take a break

29:23

at when we come back we might be facing

29:25

a global sulfur shortage in

29:27

the next decades and that's important

29:29

were going to talk about why it matters and

29:31

what we can do to prevent it so

29:34

sofa is used to actually

29:36

dissolve stuff and what's

29:38

really important a's dissolves

29:41

walk search for fertilizer

29:43

production it dissolves the phosphate

29:46

walks and gets of phosphate out

29:48

the also dissolves walk

29:51

to get those essential metals

29:53

so we're thinking of lithium are

29:55

we looking at say nicole and

29:58

things like that which are essential for me the

30:00

lightweight batteries for electric

30:02

cars but also for solar

30:04

panels stay with us

30:08

science friday hi my roof

30:10

later

30:11

the carbonization is a net positive

30:14

for the world right

30:15

reduce fossil fuel production reduce

30:18

c o two emissions but there's

30:20

an unanticipated side effects

30:22

we may be facing a global sulfuric

30:25

acid shortage you know the corrosive

30:27

stuff that's in your car battery turns

30:30

out that eighty percent of the world sulfuric acid

30:32

is the byproduct of fossil fuel production

30:35

cut back on coal oil and natural gas

30:37

production and were a lowering our

30:39

sulfur supply sulfuric

30:41

acid is critical to making greentech

30:44

like solar panels and batteries and

30:46

in fertilizer production

30:48

your enemy now to explain more about

30:50

this potential problems is mark maslin

30:53

professor of earth system science

30:55

at university college london in

30:57

london england while that the science

30:59

friday

31:00

it's a pleasure to be on nice to have

31:02

such style unless they're not by telling you are

31:04

wise software is so important to the

31:06

global economy what's a use for

31:09

so sofa ace use

31:11

trashy dissolve stuff and

31:14

what's really important a's it dissolves

31:16

walk search for fertilizer

31:18

production it dissolves the phosphate

31:21

walks and gets of phosphate out

31:24

because we know when we as she wants to some

31:26

fire fertilize the land for

31:28

agriculture we need both nitrogen

31:30

and we also need for space as

31:32

there is a really really quick way

31:34

of dissolving the rocks and getting that out but

31:37

he also dissolves walk

31:39

to get at those essential metals

31:42

so we thinking of lithium are

31:44

we looking at say nicole and

31:46

things like that which are essential for making

31:49

lightweight batteries for electric

31:51

cars but also for solar

31:53

panels and give an example

31:55

these metals are very rare

31:57

so even when they occur in a row

32:00

seem the only about one

32:02

percent of the walk and so what happens

32:04

is uses sulfuric acid is

32:06

all the ninety nine percent away

32:09

to leave these of valuable metals

32:11

behind

32:12

and before reading your research you know

32:15

i didn't really understand just how many things

32:17

sulfur was used for what

32:19

got you so interested so interested

32:22

i'm always looking at these systems

32:24

how the global economy works

32:26

and how connected everything is

32:29

so for example the invasion of

32:31

ukraine stops or

32:34

grain been exported from

32:36

ukraine to the rest the world we send

32:38

makes food prices go up

32:40

in africa so we live

32:42

in a very connected world and

32:45

women looking at decarbonization

32:47

we looking at how this would affect

32:49

lots of different minerals and

32:51

metals and we suddenly discovered

32:53

that sofa had been forgotten

32:55

about the result has been be forgotten

32:58

about is because it is the fifth

33:00

most common elements on planet

33:02

earth as of as a huge amount of it

33:05

except is all locked in box now

33:08

what we do we get nice sofa

33:11

in it's actual yellow elemental

33:13

form by and getting it

33:15

out of fossil fuels we

33:18

have to do that because the legislation

33:20

around the world says fossil fuel companies

33:23

clean up your gas and oil and coal

33:25

because we don't want the sofa the

33:27

in the actual fossil fuels because when he gets

33:30

birds the juicy sulfur dioxide

33:32

which creates acid rain that's bad

33:35

the basically please get rid of

33:37

the did they get rid of it i mean are we able to

33:40

mine sulfur and and on those wars

33:42

safely an environmentally

33:44

safe

33:45

so the big poem is my we have

33:47

a so keen to get this paper out

33:50

his we want to avoid mining

33:52

sulfur because the way you

33:54

at see mine so fat issue

33:57

palm really hot

33:59

soup cause teens are

34:01

basically incredibly hot water through

34:04

, which then dissolves

34:07

the actual so far out of these

34:09

are sedimentary rocks and what

34:11

you do a she get this sulfuric

34:13

acid out of the other end and

34:16

that saucier gases you they select an

34:18

impasse around the world psychosis

34:20

to poems one she's

34:23

your dissolving the sofa your so

34:25

deserving other nasties like mercury

34:28

and of course our snake which can get

34:30

into the water off the surrounding

34:32

area so that's really bad second

34:34

thing is your then some to transport

34:37

sulfuric acid around the world

34:39

which is actually dangerous and difficult

34:42

were as transporting the yellow sofa

34:44

solid then making

34:46

sulfuric acid on site where you need

34:49

it is much safer much easier

34:51

there was a possible to do that said transport

34:54

it more subtly

34:55

yeah the yellow stuff around the world know

34:58

, the only way of actually getting sorted

35:00

sofa is either from fossil fuels

35:03

or you can actually mine it

35:05

to form volcanoes are in indonesia

35:08

there are lots of people that that

35:10

it's on the sides of volcanoes

35:13

and lisi chip away at the yellow

35:15

welcome bring it down but it's very

35:17

small scale mean whim needing millions

35:20

and millions of tons of salsa sir

35:23

in our paper what was suggesting is was

35:25

how bout reducing

35:27

the need for sulfuric acid

35:30

we send reduces in needs to

35:32

get so fast and hopefully

35:34

we'll stop the expansion of mining

35:36

in the next couple of years

35:38

i get it done so how do you then reduce

35:41

the need for a sulfuric acid

35:43

will the first thing easy be think about

35:45

the fertilizers ah

35:47

phosphates

35:48

well

35:49

why create new phosphate when

35:51

we could recycle it so there's a lot

35:53

of phosphate that is in ass

35:55

sewage so there are really interesting

35:57

systems where we could actually least

36:00

cool that series and get the phosphate

36:02

house and have a bit of a

36:04

circular economy whereby we make

36:06

fertilizers we put it on the landing

36:09

goes interest sewage we then reclaim

36:11

it and put it back on so that swimming

36:13

is thought to think of a much more secular

36:15

economy when it comes to that when

36:17

it comes to metals again

36:20

why can't we recycle think we

36:22

are advocates of making

36:24

sure that all apps for ducks whether

36:26

his act computers phones

36:29

weather is an electric batteries

36:31

in batteries caf they should be

36:33

designed from day one to

36:35

be recyclable and therefore

36:38

all that lithium that we need all that

36:40

nicole and all those other metals actually

36:42

we can recycle of them because been get

36:45

at all the stuff we ready mind

36:47

reducing the damaging mining

36:50

but also meaning that we don't need

36:52

so much a few a cast

36:54

then what about all these new batteries that i've

36:56

hearing about that can use sulfur instead

36:59

of some of these rare earth elements in them

37:02

well again this is survey

37:04

a balancing act which is odd

37:06

does the sofa in the batteries

37:09

mean that you need less lithium

37:11

which means you need less sulfuric

37:13

acid because if you think about it

37:16

my name something like say

37:19

couple you are using

37:21

about two hundred and fifty

37:23

times the amount of sulfuric

37:25

acid as the nickel you get

37:28

out save you to replace say

37:30

ten grams of metal

37:32

with ten grams of sofa in your

37:35

actual battery then of course you're

37:37

going to win in that balancing

37:39

act but what we do need to do

37:41

is think about new batteries

37:44

in this is where the new technology comes it's

37:46

can we actually build batteries which

37:48

are using less rare

37:50

metals that are easier

37:52

to recycle which actually have

37:54

a much higher storage and

37:56

also a longer life and

37:59

the technology is accelerating so

38:01

quickly

38:02

look we don't find a way that we know take your

38:04

advice and recycle a lot of this stuff

38:08

i have the waste are we

38:10

going to have a global sulfur shortage

38:12

they will be a shortage in the future if

38:14

we don't actually a with it now

38:17

i'm what will happen is different

38:20

industries will be able to pay

38:22

the higher price so therefore

38:24

you think about it the metals industry

38:26

a ton of lithium is so

38:28

much more expensive and profitable

38:31

than a ton of fertilizer so

38:33

the we have the idea of

38:35

hat green check with

38:37

outcompete be fertilizer

38:40

industry and that means that fertilizers

38:43

would become more expensive food

38:45

production would become more expensive and

38:47

therefore the food that we buy on the

38:49

shelves would obviously be more expensive

38:52

so what we're trying to do is provide

38:55

a warning a decade ahead saying

38:58

we can see this crisis ahead wine

39:00

or as you do something about it perfect

39:03

guy this will happen are you optimistic

39:05

about this

39:06

i think that we are starting

39:09

to thinking very different ways i think

39:11

we're starting to think systematically

39:14

about the implications

39:16

for decarbonizing the wells how

39:18

we actually produce enough

39:21

renewable electricity how

39:23

to react she transported how

39:25

to be stored in a green way and

39:27

again i think because people are now

39:29

thinking more socialistic li and

39:32

in a more joined up way we can

39:34

put these resource crisis

39:36

ease into the mix and work

39:38

out how we can actually mitigate

39:41

against those thank you very much doctor

39:43

maslin for taking time to be with his today

39:46

pleasure

39:47

mark madeline professor of earth system

39:49

science at university college london

39:51

of course in london england

39:53

the sneaker science friday from w n

39:55

y c studios

39:57

if you've ever

39:59

been around go

39:59

you know they'll eat well

40:02

just about anything and everything

40:04

which makes a perfectly suited to spruce

40:07

up overgrown weedy areas

40:09

including urban spaces

40:12

hi fi radio producer russia really

40:14

is here to tell us more about her experience

40:16

with ago it's high russia

40:17

hey ira so i was in

40:19

new york city and a little while ago i heard

40:21

that the heard of goats had taken up residence

40:24

at a park near me and there were there to

40:26

help with conservation efforts and

40:28

it sounded strange rate because it usually hear

40:30

about livestock harming biodiversity

40:32

instead of helping

40:33

yeah yeah livestock and conservation

40:35

are sort of on the opposite ends of

40:38

the fiedler

40:39

yeah exactly and this concept of using

40:41

livestock dealt with conservation is

40:43

called conservation grazing and

40:45

the goods are there to chow down on invasive

40:47

species so i learned during

40:49

the disease and go to actually work

40:51

and is there any harm in it so

40:53

i call that hillary status and she

40:55

has the best job title i've ever heard she's

40:58

a chief goat herder and she works

41:00

for a nonprofit called allegheny good scale

41:02

which takes guts all around pittsburgh pennsylvania

41:05

two months on invasive plant

41:07

yeah they're very industrious and

41:09

they're very hungry they a few pounds

41:12

as suit a day which if you think about how

41:14

many leaves it would take to make four

41:17

pounds that's a lot of volume so

41:19

it is paying them to do with they want to do already

41:21

there also good at navigating challenging

41:24

typography sages run up

41:26

and down these cliffs pre impressively

41:29

joey how did is it's do their job in

41:31

new weird to use it in working

41:33

with the go to the fun collaborative

41:35

effort we usually set up a site

41:38

and let them do some work and

41:40

then once they have send out he

41:42

vegetation to a degree that allows us

41:44

to come through with our tools and mechanically

41:46

remove certain plants

41:48

are there any downsides to using

41:50

goats like what should people be careful of

41:53

people think that go thera

41:55

one in done solution and that's

41:57

and misconception goats are going

42:00

un and might seem impressive how quickly

42:02

they reduce the vegetation that you don't want

42:04

but the education is strong and

42:07

typically storing a lot of energy in

42:09

a root system you know you're

42:11

gonna need several seasons to

42:14

weekend and replace

42:16

an an entire planet community

42:18

there any concerns about the goats

42:21

chowing down on native plants

42:23

are closing arose into these perks

42:25

good could actually do a lot of damage

42:28

to the site if not managed properly so

42:31

when we set up a say first we make

42:33

sure that were avoiding large stands

42:35

of natives or if there's a

42:37

handful of trees were at

42:39

saving within the say we may create an enclosure

42:42

with in there or put some

42:44

fencing around the trees also

42:46

a filter left on a site for too long

42:49

they can certainly disturbed the soil

42:51

and because for erosion

42:54

so in order to avoid that we

42:56

just make sure that we're moving them around in

42:58

proper timing and also

43:00

it's a goat has been on a site that's very steep

43:02

and they've been wearing away at the soil

43:04

on the grass receding afterward

43:07

would it be the and fall fall

43:09

do you have a favorite part of working would go

43:12

if i have very nice coworkers i'm

43:14

never complaining about my coworkers

43:17

home they're very soothing very soothing

43:19

really like looking around while working

43:21

and thinking about the fact that

43:23

me and the goats together are

43:26

working on this huge ecological

43:28

project and it feels like

43:31

we're making a difference

43:32

good how such a great track record at

43:34

removing invasive species a

43:36

growing number of parks across the country are

43:39

recruiting their help their in cities like

43:41

madison wisconsin minneapolis minnesota

43:44

boulder colorado so i

43:46

took a shelter to my local good park

43:48

riverside park in new york city

43:50

ladies ladies

43:53

come on ladies as

43:55

, i

43:58

met with martha seizures

43:59

he's a field supervisor at the riverside

44:02

park conservancy and he isn't

44:04

image of the parks for to

44:06

each illinois a big g and

44:09

get all that huge deal

44:11

over here to get pampered every day they

44:13

get petted everyday

44:15

they are retired and he doesn't want to do everyday

44:18

the report perk is sandwiched between the

44:20

hudson river and a busy part of manhattan

44:23

there are lots of cars and sirens

44:25

an airplane flying overhead but

44:27

it's on a really beautiful hillside though with

44:30

lots of old trees and trailing blinds

44:32

third time riverside park has brought good cylinder

44:35

helping her in clearing

44:37

out invasive plants which l compete

44:39

with native species and that can

44:41

have negative effects on their native wildlife

44:43

that depend on those plans for food

44:45

for for a home for example

44:47

riverside park with built in the thirties

44:49

so technically a lot of

44:52

the faces that we do have here are disturbed

44:54

which makes it easier for frankly

44:56

suffice to say code and not so easy for

44:59

for native plants to because they don't know the area

45:01

and embrace advice on i don't care

45:03

of them for a long time as this is totally fine

45:05

that's where the goats come in some of their

45:07

favorite foods just so happened to

45:10

be the plants that the conservancy once

45:12

gone and their two acre

45:14

enclosure is a giant leafy

45:16

buffet the goats usually go

45:18

after

45:19

the dogs or somebody for rose

45:21

porcelain barry some mud words

45:24

are the com and sleeves and invasive

45:26

fact that we have in the park but they won't

45:28

go after ask there is why snake rude

45:31

all of our bases species that that are needed

45:33

for our area to win win for us

45:35

take multi for a rose for example

45:38

it's a really pretty shrub with white flowers

45:40

but it's a very invasive plant

45:42

a forms tangled almost impenetrable

45:45

tickets that make it difficult

45:47

for native plants to grow that

45:49

the goats they love it

45:51

they might have all the leaves and

45:53

they leave them sometimes they'll even

45:55

month on the same school especially if it's new growth

45:57

they will agnew the new growth is filled with

46:00

with moisture and nutrients the algo

46:02

has very worrying and hard to much

46:04

on an unnatural i commend to cut

46:06

that

46:07

that that can be removed and

46:09

then new suits are being created and them

46:11

to go to always attacking that new growth and

46:13

then that's how we spent a girl

46:15

that been really great at their job of

46:17

clearing out invasive plants there's another

46:19

reason the riverside park conservancy

46:21

keeps inviting the goats back

46:24

because people love

46:26

they're cleaner schoolbooks

46:29

come out dogs love them

46:31

they come and take pictures of amount of time

46:34

people make it far there have there have

46:36

routine and that's will

46:38

be one as a conservative you want people to commit

46:40

use department what better way doing that

46:42

and reagan hop into got

46:45

great story sounds like there's no butting

46:47

heads with that idea russia sources

46:49

team of goats now are they still

46:51

munching away they actually just finished

46:53

eating through all the plants in their enclosures

46:55

so they are out of food and their summer job

46:57

is done so they went by

46:59

come to their farm not a bad way to

47:01

retire summer in the the city you eat

47:03

all day? thanks for the story, russia yeah,

47:06

anytime about wraps

47:08

up this here is diana montana

47:10

with some of the the folks who helped make this shall

47:12

happen

47:13

ira a producers

47:15

or taylor kathleen davis shoshana

47:17

buxbaum and russia a reading g

47:20

e is our controller and

47:23

jason rosenberg rr grant managers

47:25

and i'm diana montano experiences

47:27

manager thanks

47:28

for listening, thank

47:29

you diana bj leiderman compose

47:32

our theme music and course if you missed any of

47:34

the the program where you'd like to hear it again so

47:37

to our podcast for ask your smart

47:39

speaker to play science friday

47:41

i replayed