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this

0:23

is science friday imira play-doh this

0:26

week the us bureau of reclamation that's

0:28

a federal agency that that manages water

0:31

in the western us started

0:33

the process of putting the amount

0:35

of water allotted to users

0:37

along the colorado river after

0:39

seven states missed the deadline

0:41

for coming up with their own reduction plan

0:44

the area has been under a long running

0:46

drought and with water in demand

0:48

for everything from drinking to agriculture

0:51

to electric power and with a population

0:54

of the harry on the rise states

0:56

just can't seem to be able to hash

0:58

out and agreement themselves try

1:01

to me now to talk about the plan for distributing

1:03

western water and other stories

1:05

from the week and sciences a marathon

1:07

staff writer at vox welcome back

1:10

where things are having river okay

1:12

these water cause this is serious stuff

1:14

is it it with a strangling drought in

1:16

the west who gets the water how much

1:19

yeah that's right you know there are seven states that

1:21

are part of his colorado river compact

1:23

and initially they were supposed to come up

1:25

with a plan by this week to cut two million

1:27

to four to acre feet of water one

1:30

acre foot of waters basically how much

1:32

water it takes to flood one acre of land one

1:34

foot deep land they just

1:36

did not do that and so the federal government said

1:38

well one you still have to come up with that plants

1:40

and to they started imposing their own set

1:42

of cuts on top of that and so the new set of

1:44

cuts will affect arizona nevada

1:47

and parts of mexico and they'll have to reduce

1:49

their consumption by about seven hundred twenty thousand an

1:51

acre feet you know that's not anywhere close

1:53

to the millions that are needed but these are the cuts that are going

1:55

to be imposed by the federal government's

1:58

and that's because you know as know noted

1:59

there is a long running drought there is first

2:02

this or twenty year long dry period

2:04

that we are in in the west and also

2:06

were in a drought period from the last

2:08

two years and so sort of a drought within

2:10

a drought is happening right now which is pushing

2:12

all these water resources to the brink how

2:15

do they decide how much different users

2:18

get alligators well it goes back

2:20

to history and there's some strange

2:22

rules with how the colorado rivers

2:24

waters divided you know it initially this has to do

2:26

with seniority basically the people who

2:28

are their first have the longest standing

2:30

and the first claims to it's but

2:33

the water that's being allocated there's more water

2:35

being allocated in there actually is and

2:37

so this over allocation problem is part

2:39

of why there's been such a rapid drawdown

2:41

and so states and water used

2:43

in the region have to basically go back to their baseline

2:46

and decide how to use what the

2:49

actual water is there you know they have to

2:51

actually deal with what's physically there rather

2:53

than what they're actually imagining would be there rand

2:56

are that's gonna be a big political challenge

2:58

your there's a lot of very powerful interests here that

3:00

don't want the status quo to change while

3:02

there are others that you know that are very drastically

3:04

suffering you know people in arizona people

3:06

in mexico are getting just a trickle of the water

3:08

from the colorado river and they desperately

3:10

need that just to stay hydrated and to keep

3:13

their farms and other kinds of livelihoods running

3:15

and so there's a big tension here that

3:17

really needs to be resolved and it's also this

3:19

though the the problem of making

3:21

electric power because the water level

3:23

late me that drives the power generators

3:26

in the hoover dam are at record

3:28

lows along with levels and lake powell

3:30

so there's that energy crisis loomis

3:32

right and such as the hydroelectric plants in a

3:34

water is essential for making all kinds of

3:36

energy products you know hydraulic fracturing

3:38

to make oil and gas or takes

3:40

about one a half barrels of water to make every

3:42

refined gallon of gasoline or for

3:45

refined fuel so it's also

3:47

really important for cooling power plants and

3:49

we're seeing stresses on all of these things right

3:51

now when water temperatures get to high

3:53

power plants function less efficiently and

3:55

they produce less electricity and you

3:57

know there's also limitations on how hot of water

3:59

they can discharge back into nature and

4:02

so in this period we've seen the summer with extreme

4:04

heat and extreme dryness

4:06

lot of powers resources have been stressed

4:09

another west so far hasn't seen any

4:11

major blackouts in that's because in the pacific northwest

4:14

they've actually had a fair amount of rainfall

4:16

this past winter and they're generating a lot more electricity

4:18

to compensate for it's by your water

4:20

managers and resource managers in the west are concerned

4:22

that you know in the next few years of this drought persists

4:25

we could see a point where the major generators

4:28

like you noted on the hoover dam and all it's

4:30

all a powell with the glen canyon

4:32

dam they could reach a point where they're no longer

4:34

able to generate electricity so

4:37

some of them are are attorney to nuclear

4:39

power right right here we've

4:41

seen a step in of all sorts of different

4:43

kinds of energy resources we seemed all

4:45

fossil fuel plants step in to

4:48

in a compensate for some of the downfall of

4:50

of hydroelectric power we can be cut off and

4:52

that's but recently just this week

4:54

we saw an announcement from california that they want

4:56

to bail out there last remaining

4:58

nuclear power plant d of people

5:00

canyon plant this plan provides about nine point

5:03

three percent of the state's electricity and now there's state's proposal

5:05

to keep it running from it's initial

5:08

shutdown data twenty twenty five all the way out to

5:10

potentially up to twenty thirty five and this

5:12

is not just here in the states where you're out over

5:14

in europe that they gave extending the lives of

5:16

their nuclear power plants right europe is

5:18

also facing a major energy crisis like similarly

5:21

for many of the like seat and route reasons

5:23

we've seen here in the united states you know

5:25

water levels on the rhine are really laws are germany

5:27

is having trouble getting it's fuel shipments it's

5:30

coal and gas and and in france

5:32

nuclear powerplants have had to actually shut down because

5:34

water temperatures have gone too hot for them to cool

5:37

off by germany was initially

5:39

planning to shut down shut of it's nuclear power

5:41

plants by the end of this year but after

5:43

russia's invasion of ukraine they

5:45

saw big drop off in their natural gas resources

5:48

germany's resources largest purchaser of natural gas and

5:50

they're now concerned that concerned won't be able to meet their

5:53

able domestic energy demand and saudi government

5:55

is now proposing rather than shutting down their nuclear

5:57

plants steeping them running so about thirty

6:00

then of germany's electricity used to come from nuclear

6:02

it's now down to six percent but

6:04

the government now says that it's really vital

6:06

to keep that resource run the

6:08

california plant not economically

6:11

feasible to keep running yeah

6:13

there are there are of factors you know nuclear is

6:15

fairly expensive to keep running and in california

6:17

you know they are plenty of solar and wind

6:20

which can come on the grid very cheap and and also

6:22

lot of natural gas which is also very cheap add

6:24

this plant was also fairly old and has neither

6:26

number of upgrades in order to meet current

6:29

regulatory and safety standards that were fairly

6:31

expensive but the state says

6:34

that you know are now that the

6:36

up upside of keeping to they're running out where

6:38

the downside and the cost of this there

6:40

was a steady that came out are just a couple

6:42

years ago that said that's california could reduce

6:44

its power sector emissions by about ten percent

6:47

and save about two point six billion dollars

6:49

by keeping the plant running through twenty thirty five

6:52

so there is sort of a financial case over

6:54

the long term for keeping this plant running yeah

6:57

but there's also the political case

6:59

here california is not known for being

7:01

pro nuclear right you know there's been a major

7:03

environmental movement there and a

7:05

lot of anti nuclear campaigners have been very successful

7:07

and shutting down the states other nuclear power plants

7:10

and so there is some political tension you know

7:12

particularly since you're california is governed by a democratic

7:14

coalition and you know environmentalists

7:17

had some anti nuclear environmentalists are part of that

7:19

and so resolving that and making the case

7:21

to them is going to be part of the a challenge from keeping

7:24

the they're running

7:25

okay let's move on to a different kind

7:27

of energy

7:28

the cosmic light show that's

7:31

unusual tell us about that right

7:33

so a few days ago scientists detectives

7:36

these eruptions on the sun called

7:38

corona mass ejections and

7:40

they send these waves of energize particles

7:42

or way from the sides and toward earth

7:45

and when he's particles hit the earth they

7:47

can actually excite the gases in our atmosphere

7:49

and cause them to light up similar to how you know electricity

7:52

excites me on gas and makes that light up

7:54

and this is the phenomenon that's behind the northern

7:57

lights in aurora borealis and also the

7:59

southern lights the south pole typically

8:01

they stay near the poles but because we saw such

8:03

an intense wave of these

8:06

energize particles hitting the earth this week starting

8:08

on wednesday they are now

8:10

can be visible much further south in parts of even

8:12

the northern continental united states and

8:14

states like new york and in oregon and in iowa

8:17

and that storm is expected to continue

8:19

tonight as well in so this is

8:21

i'd sort of a very unusual event to see these

8:24

are lights but as far south bytes

8:26

on it's one of the few ways that we can perceive

8:28

space weather from the ground

8:31

i'm always just a little too far south

8:33

to see these are they are they

8:35

predictable at all don't actually

8:37

know odd the national oceanic and atmospheric

8:39

administration daves have a space

8:41

weather prediction center where they monitor these

8:44

kinds of things and they can actually put our models to

8:46

seats were they expect aurora as to

8:48

form now you know these are maggots

8:50

has particles there in addition to making

8:52

aurora if they get severe enough they can damage electronic

8:54

communications and satellites i

8:56

am that is the main reason that they're monitoring that

8:58

because they want to be able to anticipate these kinds of problems

9:01

but the strength of the recent storm is not

9:03

expected to reach those levels and so will

9:06

hopefully just get a nice light show out of it rather

9:08

than any kind of disruption yeah

9:11

boy let's turn to something else in the skies

9:13

and mrs the possibility of resurrecting

9:16

supersonic air travel

9:18

i remember i remember those as as days yeah

9:21

or this week american airlines said that they're

9:23

going to be buying twenty supersonic aircraft

9:25

from this company called boom supersonics

9:28

or supersonic aircraft our planes that travel faster

9:30

than the speed of sound about seven hundred sixty miles per

9:32

hour and this fall's an announcement from united

9:34

airlines are while back that said

9:37

that they would by fifteen airplanes on this company

9:39

so this is seems to be a fairly large

9:42

purchase order from airlines from the saw a company

9:44

that really hasn't built any planes yet but

9:46

they expect to begin test flights and twenty twenty six

9:48

and start carrying passengers and twenty twenty nine

9:51

aside from trying to fly

9:53

a jet called boom i

9:56

have no of who came up with that name i

9:58

mean that that the kind

9:59

they they say used to be in service

10:02

and it was taken out of service

10:04

what makes this time different what

10:06

has changed that's a great question you

10:08

know the concorde when it first came out was

10:10

you know hailed as the future of aviation

10:12

bites he was quickly hit by an energy

10:15

crisis you know there is a big spike in fuel prices around

10:17

the world's people sort of been concerned about the environmental

10:19

impact you know in order to go faster you need to

10:22

burn more fuel and it was a very

10:24

big insights i wasn't a very large uncomfortable

10:26

aircraft it was a fairly small and cramped our

10:28

way to get around and so are

10:30

the costs got to high the environmental benefits

10:33

were very low and so that's part of why the of

10:35

the concorde was phased out

10:37

and many of those same concerns are still present

10:39

now you know we're still facing a fuel crunch were still

10:41

more concerned about or things like climate

10:43

change in your aviation is a major contributor about

10:46

five percent of warming can be attributed

10:48

to the aviation sector in any given year and

10:50

so decarbonizing aircraft

10:52

is going to be a big challenge now this company

10:55

boom supersonic says that they want to be net

10:57

zero carbon from day one they

10:59

have a suite of different tactics they want to use

11:01

to do that basically using renewable fuels

11:03

and also perhaps a combination of offseason other

11:06

mechanisms but this is really sort

11:08

of an untested strategy in it would be really interesting if

11:10

they can actually pull off the buyer mental component

11:12

as well as they pull off the us flying very

11:14

fast opponent finally

11:16

heading into the weekend we all know that thinking

11:19

hard can leave you exhausted but

11:21

there's new research into fly right

11:24

yeah i read this piece by clear wilson in new scientist

11:27

that look at this recent study about

11:29

why people feel tired after doing difficult

11:31

mental tasks now the conventional

11:33

wisdom was that your brain doesn't actually

11:36

use that much more energy when it's thinking

11:38

hard vs when it's slacking off but

11:40

they found that there might be an actual mechanism that explains

11:43

his kind of fatigues so researchers at

11:45

the paris brain institute in france they

11:47

i use this technique called magnetic resonance

11:49

spectroscopy which contract chemicals

11:51

inside living tissue and they ask

11:53

forty people to do these memory task inside

11:55

the scanner where they had to look at letters and numbers

11:58

and colors and try to remember the an

12:00

aspect about them and after six hours

12:02

of these tests they found that the people who did

12:04

the harder task has elevated levels of this

12:06

chemical called glutamate glutamate as

12:08

an amino acid but it also functions as a neurotransmitter

12:11

and people who did the harder task had

12:13

more this glutamate and they reported being more

12:16

tired so this could potentially be a way to signal

12:18

mental fatigue and a way that you can actually practice

12:21

and people

12:22

wow very interesting always interesting stuff

12:24

o max thank you for taking time to be with

12:26

us today my blessing of a good weekend thank

12:28

you have a good weekend if a marathon staff

12:31

writer at vox we have to take a break

12:33

and when we come back we'll talk about the big

12:35

and small ways viruses

12:37

have shaped our lives

12:39

support for science friday also comes

12:41

from schmidt futures a philanthropic

12:44

initiatives founded by eric and wendy

12:46

schmidt

12:47

the

12:47

on this episode of radio lab

12:50

we follow science reporter sally

12:52

eighty as he uses the electric

12:54

equivalent of a nine volt battery to

12:56

hone her killer instinct

12:59

and , examine how the public crowdsourcing

13:01

solutions for turning a real nine volt

13:03

batteries into states of

13:05

mind mind

13:07

volt nirvana on radio lab

13:10

listen wherever you get podcast

13:17

the science friday i am i replayed

13:19

it

13:20

i'm hiv to covered to monkey

13:22

pox viruses have been on our minds

13:24

lately of course viruses

13:26

are no strangers from the common cold

13:29

to cold sores two singles we've

13:31

always had to deal with them cipher

13:34

to secrecy taylor is here with

13:36

reflections from one microbiologist

13:38

about living through multiple viral

13:41

crises hey chris a painter

13:43

ira why do i get the impression

13:45

we're about to get philosophical

13:48

today

13:48

well as you know ira we

13:50

live on a planet of viruses

13:53

there are more individual viruses on earth in our

13:55

stars in the universe an ounce

13:57

of ocean water contains more than seven billion

13:59

viruses and almost

14:02

all of them are harmless to

14:04

you know and i think about it yes summer even

14:06

helped phone by vegas

14:08

which can kill harmful bacteria

14:10

exactly but as

14:13

you mentioned a few touch her lives in really

14:15

major ways we've been covering

14:17

the anxiety and uncertainty or on monkey

14:19

pox for example and there's the virus

14:21

that causes cove it but there's also

14:23

there's trauma of hiv and aids crisis

14:26

which has shaped many shaped many

14:29

even since the advent of effective treatments

14:31

i talked to doctor joseph ogmundsson he's a

14:33

self described queer scientist who

14:36

teaches microbiology at new york university

14:38

and he has a new book out called virology essays

14:41

to the living dead and the small

14:43

things in between it's part covert

14:45

quarantine diary part meditation

14:48

on his experience as a queer man growing up

14:50

in a world where hiv has always existed

14:53

you've got a little bit of praise also for

14:55

those sheer beauty of viruses

14:57

as

14:58

beauty

14:59

i guess i guess and say

15:01

we're cruise missiles is a

15:03

thing of beauty and i sell him and

15:06

my quite sure i can agree here

15:07

i know i know i see where you're coming from iris

15:10

by it by the end of his book i to was a convert

15:13

however we did just start by talking about the basics

15:16

what a virus is and how it does so

15:18

much for something so small

15:20

in general we think about life conforming

15:23

to what biologists call a central dogma and

15:25

the main component of the central dogma is that

15:28

genes genetic information is

15:30

always always always always capital

15:32

a encoded in dna ah

15:35

and there are particular mechanisms

15:37

through which teams get teams get

15:39

and turn into their protein products viruses

15:42

don't even follow that basic tenet

15:45

of life so there are are in a

15:47

viruses that encode their genome

15:49

their genetic material and are in a there

15:51

are single stranded aren't a viruses double

15:53

stranded already viruses single stranded dna

15:56

viruses double stranded dna viruses

15:59

and each virus is just trying

16:01

to copy itself so it

16:03

will do whatever evolution has

16:05

taught it to do to make more copies

16:07

of itself so the virus is going to use

16:09

itself plus you so itself with

16:12

yourself to copy itself

16:14

and we can classify viruses in different

16:16

ways one is by the genetic

16:18

material as our neighbors his dna

16:21

another is whether the viral

16:23

infection is a suits

16:25

or persistent some viruses like hiv

16:28

or like herpes virus once you get infected

16:31

with it that virus will live in your cells

16:34

are for the rest of us there's gabi

16:36

to the virus that causes cove it right

16:38

isn't a queue fire isn't the virus comes

16:41

in copies itself a bunch and

16:43

when your immune system clear that the virus

16:46

has less your body viruses

16:48

are curious

16:50

magical wonderful horrifying

16:53

little things and each virus

16:55

solves the problem of replication

16:57

of copying itself in it's own unique

17:00

way the the images

17:02

that we see a virus is like that same as kind of

17:04

gray ball for sars gabi to that

17:07

is actually what that virus looks

17:09

like under an electron microscopes

17:11

plus some additional structural data

17:13

from higher resolution methods so when you

17:15

when you look at those graphics that that

17:17

, is if you had as and eyes

17:20

small enough to see that really is what

17:22

a virus looks like that the scale

17:24

bar that you need is to sell that

17:26

it would affect and the cell is enough

17:29

a thousand fold or more larger

17:31

than that so it's the virus and that would be

17:33

to the tiny dots compared to

17:35

the size of yourself

17:37

the new alluded to this a moment ago when

17:39

talking about hiv i'm i think

17:41

another famous example is you know herpes

17:44

people who get cold sores have herpes forever

17:46

why am i not just me

17:48

but me plus herpes yeah so the

17:50

in there to really interesting

17:52

examples because hiv is

17:55

with you in your t cells because when insects

17:57

yourself as per his

17:59

i got it literally cuts itself

18:02

into your dna so

18:04

if you beat your dna your molecule

18:06

of ready in those cells that will you pass

18:08

on to the offspring of all those

18:10

cells become a virus

18:13

human hybrid or

18:15

as so that that means that you know the

18:17

the virus obviously can pass

18:19

from you to another person's but

18:21

it will also pass from you yourselves

18:23

your t cells to all of your future t cells

18:26

a , is a little bit of a different a

18:28

example because it actually doesn't integrate

18:31

into your dna it's dna

18:33

makes what's called an epa zones but that

18:35

stay is that episode knows how to copy

18:37

itself and stay with you it's so the what

18:39

i think about herpes infection is

18:42

he your dna doesn't become a

18:44

human herpes hybrid but herpes

18:46

is always in your cell and

18:48

it is always probably replicating some

18:50

low level and your immune system is kind of talking

18:52

to that replication and kind of your immune

18:54

system is turning it down and you know

18:56

the herpes is kind of rolling along and

18:58

so it's you know i'm mostly from a

19:01

lot of those if you're stressed or you have

19:03

a dip in immunity than the virus

19:05

talk though so louder and on top of

19:07

being stressed you have a cold sore and then you're saw

19:09

that than just talking about that and

19:11

units ah onward we go

19:15

you know if you know herpes really refrains

19:17

for me you know and other very

19:20

common viruses like epstein barr virus

19:22

what it means to be a person because most

19:25

people have herpes are

19:27

you know we have to acknowledge the a small number of people

19:29

who have herpes is is

19:31

sort of a debilitating illness they have bring

19:34

outbreaks all the time and those people deserve

19:36

better biomedicine and better care

19:39

and , the same time for peace is having

19:41

herpes is totally normal most people do

19:44

ever most people it's very it's very manageable

19:46

there's even some research that i talk about in my book

19:49

that for peace actually is activating

19:51

the immune system to fight particular bacterial

19:54

or parasitic infection so infection that

19:56

way you can almost think about almost

19:58

think infection as

19:59

the pony of your own a me

20:02

how that's really cool

20:03

if you're there should be thing thanks herpes

20:06

got it i go helping

20:08

him out

20:09

and some virus is kill bacteria for us

20:12

after that's what i did my phd honor

20:14

i was studying a bacterial

20:16

face of these are viruses that only insects

20:19

bacteria and the but the virus

20:21

i was studying infected staph bacteria

20:24

so these are actually viruses that have been

20:26

used in humans the

20:28

virus that virus studied came from biomedical

20:30

research in georgia the country georgia

20:33

where it was actually used was actually therapeutic

20:35

for people who had sat him funny and

20:37

so you know sort of with the enemy of

20:39

your of is your friends have of have situation

20:42

what do the handshake me

20:44

i'm in there

20:44

it the it is i like the spider

20:46

man once the spiderman point a to spider

20:48

man's pointing at one another and enough

20:50

the other fronting about the virus that i studied

20:53

in my phd is just

20:55

how you not really digging i read i will

20:57

to every single you know maybe two hundred jeans

20:59

and that soccer i will to every single one

21:02

of them and like eighty percent of them were not

21:04

related to any other known protein

21:06

which doesn't happen in living things right living

21:09

things are related to other living things whereas

21:11

viruses evolve in these spaces

21:14

and these ways that they can be super

21:16

special little snowflake

21:18

well and you

21:20

have used some pretty admiring

21:22

sounding language already

21:24

in this conversation i think he said wondrous

21:27

at one point about viruses on

21:29

what's your emotional relationship with these

21:32

on of i don't even have organism or life

21:34

for the even the right word but they tell us about

21:36

your feelings shell

21:37

they're definitely not and of science

21:40

courses about my see what is this is deeply my bread

21:42

or they're just really not an orgasm i called him a

21:44

life form because they

21:46

cannot replicate themselves so they're not to

21:49

a biologist living or i

21:51

use the word awesome to talk about

21:53

viruses in in the sort of original sense

21:56

of that word as a queer person

21:58

who was born in and eighty

22:00

three around the six months

22:02

where hiv was shown to cause

22:04

of what was then called grade and is now

22:07

called hiv aids i've

22:09

never not understood the

22:11

deadly impact of a virus

22:14

and the emotional weight have

22:17

a queer bodies being put

22:19

in black plastic garbage

22:21

bags and left on the street because hospitals

22:23

didn't want to deal with them are people being rejected

22:26

by their families i can not

22:28

take my lived experience away from

22:31

the horror the with the true

22:33

horror the horror of hiv

22:36

aids both in the eighties nineties

22:38

and still now because people are still getting

22:40

hiv and people are still dying of

22:43

aids and in this country the

22:45

horror that was when he

22:47

twenty that absolute object

22:50

horrific experience that has

22:52

been watching you know people including to

22:54

of my very dearest friends

22:57

get monkey pox and have

23:00

to isolate for weeks on end

23:03

it is

23:04

remarkable a how profound

23:07

viruses at profoundly viruses

23:09

have impacted every aspect of

23:11

our lives at this point and yet

23:14

the vast majority they're more viruses

23:16

on earth than there are stars in the sky

23:18

the vast majority of viruses up

23:21

our phase the exact only bacteria

23:24

am , had to undo a lot of my

23:26

thinking about viruses that focus

23:29

only on hiv aids as

23:31

a viral model as part of

23:33

that was undoing shame and

23:35

stigma the i had put on myself

23:37

that said if i ever became hiv positive

23:39

i would be less desirable i would love

23:41

myself less i would have less sex

23:44

or and or was seem a stigma i had to

23:46

undo myself

23:48

even are you know hiv

23:51

is a horror it is a

23:53

particle with or nine

23:56

genes made out of our in a and

23:59

we have forty trillion cells

24:02

two thousand and jeans and three point two

24:04

billion unique letters of genetic information

24:08

and are in a hasn't figured

24:10

out how to get into ourselves

24:12

replicate in them and even kill us if we

24:14

don't have biomedicine and so there is that there's

24:16

something awesome in that

24:18

power that it has

24:21

an an essential to understand

24:23

how that works because through understanding that

24:26

awesome power we can actually

24:28

event interventions and we have

24:31

you're writing here to about the meaning of

24:33

viruses and how that meaning changes

24:35

and you know the invention of the biomedicine

24:38

you know travolta up or witches in a pre

24:40

exposure prophylaxis has

24:43

changed the meaning of hiv also

24:45

and they should also acknowledge be at be at

24:47

viral therapy as well ah for

24:50

people living with hiv how

24:52

have the meaning of hiv changed both

24:54

personally and socially in

24:56

their decade since it first emerged

24:59

this is like one of the biggest thrust

25:01

of my book it's not to feel nihilistic

25:03

and helpless in the face of plague

25:06

or a virus is to understand

25:08

that the virus our body and

25:10

bio medicine make meaning together

25:13

and each one of those three things is

25:15

able to shift meaning you know i

25:17

think it's as essentially you equals

25:19

you what you mentioned that someone who was

25:22

hiv positive and a

25:24

undetectable because they're controlling hiv

25:26

replication with antiretrovirals it

25:29

is impossible for that person

25:31

to transmit hiv it does not

25:33

and cannot happen which

25:35

means actually that someone who's hiv positive

25:38

is the safest sex partner

25:40

you can have for hiv transmission

25:43

and that broke my brain been

25:45

in the best way

25:48

that biomedical intervention that

25:50

really incredible science that

25:52

took many years to show that incontrovertibly

25:55

made me love myself

25:58

differently because i would i i love

26:00

myself as someone who is hiv negative

26:02

and hiv positive and it made me

26:04

think about sex with people with hiv

26:07

in a completely different way so

26:10

in twenty twelve before we

26:12

had a pill to prevent hiv

26:14

whether or not a condom broke or you wanted

26:16

to use wants to you know twenty twenty to

26:18

ten years when you have the knowledge

26:20

that hiv positive people are you're safer

26:23

sex partners in terms of hiv transmission

26:25

and i can take a pill to they

26:28

make my risk so close to zero itself

26:31

you know hiv is meeting

26:33

just it it's a shifts in found

26:36

ways that for me at least have and

26:38

done some of the trauma of having

26:41

grown up having the shadow of hiv

26:44

find friday from w n y c studio

26:47

you're just joining us i'm chrissie taylor

26:49

and i am talking to microbiologist and author

26:51

just of other than since he's the author

26:54

of the book viral a jeep essays to

26:56

the living the dead and the small things

26:58

in between the you

27:00

think that you know that shadow

27:02

and the the trauma from those plague years

27:05

when hiv was not survivable

27:08

do think that given gayman and other lgbtq

27:10

people a different relationship with

27:12

infectious disease

27:15

it certainly has given us the lived experience

27:17

of doing it have settled around

27:20

infectious disease and a viral infection

27:22

or because for many years and still

27:25

today when you have sex you are

27:27

making on a large

27:29

number of complex decisions

27:31

around risk for hiv and other

27:33

infectious diseases that are generally

27:36

or front of mind for us and

27:38

so you know when you talk about covered risk reduction

27:40

or a biomedical acceptance rate

27:43

am i going to get the vaccine for sars gabi

27:45

to swell gay people got that vaccine

27:47

at higher rates yet the group

27:50

does were like were like quite like to go back

27:52

to being so source without as

27:54

much worry about getting an

27:56

infection that could kill me and oh hey there

27:58

is about intervention the great

28:00

and you know i think the the focus really

28:03

needs to be on equity and

28:06

how we imagine the

28:08

gay community as one thing

28:10

is and how are

28:13

of the gay community in actuality

28:15

or the queer community or our sexual network

28:17

isn't entirely other same and

28:20

that people in rural areas

28:23

people of color black and brown people

28:25

in indigenous people in particular are

28:27

often left out often our imaginations

28:29

and that also leaves them outside

28:32

of access to care that has become

28:34

routine for many upper middle class

28:36

gay men in new york city

28:38

new time at the expense of these

28:40

drug you know it's not just

28:42

the expense because there are

28:44

interventions to make prep affordable

28:46

prep affordable people it also

28:48

if you talk about the rural south

28:51

of homophobia of health care providers

28:53

some people literally live sixty

28:55

plus miles from their nearest clinic

28:58

do they have health insurance as

29:00

information about prep even gotten

29:03

out to them you know my i have a gay doctor

29:05

in chelsea and so he's is like

29:07

what's your prep deal and i'm like this is my prep

29:09

deal and then we sorted out it's very easy

29:11

it's that is not the case for everybody

29:13

right so is it isn't the cost

29:15

to yes but it is a million

29:18

things besides in addition to

29:20

the cost that haven't jerk direct

29:22

and dramatic impact on

29:25

accessibility all

29:28

of these lessons of hiv about

29:30

you know who is still zero converting

29:32

who still getting hiv today and

29:35

it's largely black and brown people lot of folks

29:37

in the rural south people outside of our imaginations

29:40

of days sexual networks

29:42

and people outside of our imaginations of

29:44

the queer community biomedicine

29:47

is never enough biomedicine

29:49

is magical hiv meds save

29:51

lives they put people back from the

29:53

brink of death in nineteen ninety

29:55

six and yet you know

29:58

i have a friend

30:00

who i know whose parents died

30:02

of hiv both including one in and

30:04

around eighty ninety six because the they weren't

30:06

able to access those pills soon enough

30:09

rights there are people even now who

30:11

get their hiv positive diagnosis

30:13

when they are presenting with aids

30:16

because they've been living with hiv

30:18

without knowing it for years

30:21

the soap biomedicine is magical

30:24

but biomedicine without access global

30:26

access is never ever enough

30:31

they say we need to take a quick break but

30:33

when we come back more from your

30:35

conversation with n y u microbiology

30:38

is joseph osmonds and about

30:40

how viruses are shaping our allies

30:43

support for signs right a comes from the gordon

30:46

and betty moore foundation for more information

30:48

please visit more dot org

30:51

the side friday i'm by roughly though

30:54

we been listening to produce a chrissy taylor's

30:56

interview with microbiology is joe

30:58

osmonds and about growing up

31:00

in the post hiv world how

31:02

covert nineteen changed us

31:05

and how viruses may shape our lives

31:07

in the future his new book is

31:09

the rolla g essays for the living

31:11

the dead and a small things

31:13

in between there's more from that

31:15

conversation

31:17

i want to go back to your book for a moment to

31:19

the coven eighteen pandemic where you

31:21

write about the initial months of quarantine and twenty

31:23

twenty i you created a pod see you

31:26

could see a couple friends safely still what's

31:28

old important about sharing this experience

31:31

in a book length meditation on viruses

31:34

what i learned from reading

31:37

the folks who had written about experience

31:39

of hiv in the eighties and nineties

31:42

it can be very dangerous to live through a trauma

31:45

and not look at it closely

31:48

i would the new york which was profoundly

31:50

impacted by it's a tower these

31:52

i mean twenty four hours a day you could hear

31:54

sirens in the distance carrying

31:56

the sickest new yorkers to the

31:58

hospital where they hey or may not

32:01

get the care that they need that

32:03

lived experience of her of

32:05

how we tried to care for one another in the face

32:07

of that and how horrible it was

32:10

and how magic other people were in

32:12

was essential to like really

32:14

really sit with profoundly to say

32:17

this is something that we need to emotionally process

32:20

now do out loud

32:22

looking back on that given that cove it is still

32:24

killing people and a monkey pox is your it

32:26

is an ongoing profound

32:28

emotional experience but i do think it's

32:30

helpful the allow ourselves

32:32

to seal even as we're still in

32:35

it and allow ourselves to remember

32:37

that profound experience and learn from it

32:39

try to take how we cared for each other in

32:42

spring and summer of twenty of twenty

32:44

continue that to do that hard work

32:47

of putting care community

32:50

and harm reduction at the forefront

32:52

of our thoughts and minds even years

32:55

later

32:56

and you write about you know you write about

32:58

this vision of care you also write about

33:01

some of the activism you are involved in with covered

33:03

in and trying to get new york city to set down

33:05

earlier than it did and

33:07

there were so many different kinds of response even

33:10

as like across the country around the world even

33:12

within new york city why

33:14

did people behave in different ways

33:16

and response to this very sudden

33:19

terrifying time

33:22

the i mean people deal with trauma

33:24

differently and there were

33:26

a systemic in governmental failures in in

33:28

in messaging and providing people

33:30

the tools that they needed to isolate

33:33

are that make sure that people hadn't money

33:35

in their pocket to pay their rents if their work

33:37

was interrupted i mean that the essay

33:40

about my pod an essay about activism

33:43

, uses both the community

33:45

care and the activism we were doing

33:48

as as as a waiter was because

33:50

one is in a personal care and

33:52

then activism at its best is

33:54

care extended into politics and

33:57

you know the arnie sequencing we tried to dude

34:00

the idol did that actually success we got

34:02

seattle shut down very early in march

34:04

we failed we didn't get the

34:06

samples we needed get the

34:08

information to force politicians

34:11

do to do the right thing based on science

34:14

and tens of thousands of people die to didn't need

34:16

to die

34:17

the last week the cdc has relaxed

34:20

the guidelines are hiring quarantine after

34:22

exposure to close it may seem what

34:24

is this really have a vision of care that you tried

34:26

to express and neurology

34:29

girl

34:32

lord i mean it's so funny

34:34

because the cdc is arguing that this

34:36

is quote unquote meeting people were there at

34:38

which is an important notion

34:40

and public health still show up at someone's

34:43

home and yell at them to provide

34:45

lots of options to mitigate

34:47

risk that is except that not everyone

34:49

is able to to do the very best perfect

34:51

thing we've been having the site with monkey

34:54

pox as well isolation for monkey

34:56

pox as four to five weeks and

34:58

the guidance is to isolate but we also acknowledged

35:00

that not everyone can auto bush

35:02

i think it said facetiously sake of

35:05

people get a dukes and so we

35:07

provide guidance the if you do after we'd the

35:09

home wear a mask cover all your reasons

35:12

meeting people were there are is not going on an

35:14

airplane don't wear don't wear you know we

35:16

don't have any guidance that says

35:18

to isolate after you test positive that's

35:20

not there are and if

35:22

this is so deeply tied the

35:25

capitalism to the fact that the

35:27

government views itself is getting out

35:29

of the way of people making people

35:31

work when they're sick like they used to before

35:33

tough policy like universal healthcare

35:35

and universal sick leave or the solutions

35:38

to this problem you know if you look at

35:40

the uk is monkey pox data they

35:42

have ways you are cases per capita

35:45

than the u s and the cases are now falling

35:47

they actually had fewer vaccines per capita

35:49

us but had enough of a public health

35:51

infrastructure that they could tested cs the

35:54

cases are and keep

35:56

the number down with non pharmaceutical interventions

35:58

largely death the frustrating it's

36:00

not rocket science people you know

36:02

but the dose of like ripping

36:05

off the band aid and saying go do whatever

36:07

you why it is just really insulting

36:09

to all of us who have been trying

36:12

to both lead with tear in our individual lives

36:14

and are also advocate for care being

36:16

center of our

36:18

public policy

36:20

the talk about monkey pox

36:22

the even public health experts are stressing

36:24

that the virus is not solely

36:27

sexually transmitted infection and even

36:29

as people are being very wary and careful

36:31

about sigma against lgbtq people

36:33

who are the majority of the patient so far

36:36

even so we're seeing high profile

36:38

newspaper and magazine editorials urging

36:40

queer man and others in their sexual networks

36:43

to have less sachs that's

36:45

someone talking about harm reduction the for

36:47

the full interview what of your

36:49

reaction

36:50

man that's

36:53

, problem is not communicating

36:55

to people that we need to for a time

36:57

probably change our sexual behaviors the

36:59

thing is this came from the community

37:01

of people who had the most sex everyone

37:03

knew everyone who is sick everyone had a friend

37:06

who was ill and saw how horrible it

37:08

was and didn't want to get sick this

37:10

community the very community and people that

37:12

i'm in has been making guidance

37:14

that includes telling people that

37:17

altering their sexual behaviors will lower their

37:19

risk for infection infection

37:21

also does not stigmatized

37:24

group sex or going to sign of or bathhouse

37:26

are having multiple partners on grinder and

37:29

says we need to wait until

37:31

we get the biomedicine to protect

37:33

us and then we need to study how well that bomb

37:35

as and protests has largely vaccine it

37:37

is infuriating that

37:39

the vaccine situation has been so horrific

37:42

so many people i know wanted to get vaccines

37:44

couldn't get vaccines and then got sick and

37:46

that is a crime so

37:48

you know it's coming from this this

37:51

fine line this the thread a needle

37:53

this knife blade edge right

37:55

this as community should be reading we

37:57

need to give people information but we are

38:00

the need to not stigmatizes type of facts

38:02

and when you pop a piece gets published in the atlantic

38:04

that opens with an eighteen twenty seven pass how

38:06

seems talking about the men being ghosts

38:09

and not being able to look at each other and

38:11

sites larry kramer and everyone else who agreed

38:14

that you know sort of promiscuous sex

38:16

gets in the way of intimacy it's it

38:18

is just doing harm to the community

38:20

that rd suffering is implying

38:22

step people got sick out of a lack of self

38:24

control as opposed to out of a lack of

38:27

tests treatments and vaccines

38:30

ah , the community is

38:32

really insulting the

38:35

if the of patronizing and people are angry

38:39

the viruses are inherent the world we live in of

38:42

we sort of started out this conversation

38:44

acknowledging and we're going to remain

38:46

in conversation with them for the entirety

38:48

of our the other species what

38:51

of your vision for how we can do better

38:53

to reduce the death and pain of

38:55

that conversation in the future

38:57

biomedicine there's an incredible

39:00

human as a invention and

39:03

we need every

39:06

nation everyone on earth

39:08

should have their people able

39:11

to do research science are on the

39:13

priorities of the folks

39:15

who live there you know so he should not be

39:17

it's the us shipping are

39:20

monkey pox technology to nigeria

39:22

although that is an immediate dogs

39:24

but you know why does

39:26

nigeria and white reduce does the

39:28

congo not have the biomedical

39:30

infrastructure themselves was because a corneal

39:32

extraction of the wealth of those nations

39:35

and neocolonial or interactions

39:37

between their governments and

39:40

ours continuing that most extraction

39:43

social you know i think

39:45

viruses points think to the

39:47

harms that we do to one another

39:50

and we will never eradicate the

39:52

risk of a viral infection a new

39:54

viral infection and all viral infection

39:57

but if we read with care and

39:59

if we look to the places where viruses

40:01

have shown us that we've done harm to one another

40:04

and try to repair that harm through

40:07

that act of reparations

40:09

we will be protecting ourselves and

40:11

one another from all viral

40:13

threatens

40:15

there were thank you so much for the time today

40:17

this was such a great conversation thank you so

40:19

much for having me

40:20

after death of others and teaches micro biology

40:23

at new york university in new york city

40:25

his book is virology ss of

40:27

the living the dead and the small

40:29

things in between and we've

40:31

got an excerpt if you want to take a look up on our website

40:34

that that science friday dot com slash biology

40:37

that science friday dot com slash

40:39

biology i'm christie taylor

40:42

thank you chris

40:43

i coverage of monkey pox is continuing

40:46

as this global health emergency unfolds

40:48

we have a q and a from past experts

40:50

up on our website for you right now

40:53

science friday dot com slash monkey

40:55

pox again science friday

40:57

dot com slash monkey pox

41:01

the science friday from w n y

41:03

c studio

41:05

now it's time to check in on the state of science

41:09

isn't , the oriented have you now know a celebration

41:11

island public radio news local

41:13

sign stories of national significance

41:16

florida is home to one of our favorite

41:19

charismatic creatures manatees

41:22

we've spoken in the past about how populations

41:24

of these mammals have gone way down

41:27

over the years and a lot of that has

41:29

to do with the health of florida waterways

41:31

and now there's finally some good

41:34

news off the coast of tap us

41:36

the water it seems is in great shape

41:38

and it's plant life is flourishing this

41:41

could be a great sign for manatees

41:43

telling me now is a man who loves diving

41:46

into a good story steve newborns

41:48

reporter for wu sf

41:50

and tampa florida what's up the science

41:52

friday great to be her our great

41:55

to have you okay to tell me about this area

41:57

that you went to for this story

41:59

right this is just off the or the

42:02

coast of tampa bay to the north

42:04

it's it's it's called the nature coast

42:06

which probably gives you good indication of why it's

42:08

so healthy it's a the

42:10

second largest seagrass

42:13

beds in the gulf of mexico to

42:15

second to of florida bay

42:17

which is at the tip of the everglades in southern

42:20

florida and the reason is

42:22

reason healthy is because it's relatively

42:24

undeveloped it's called the nature calls

42:26

for nature reason it has several aquatic

42:28

preserves are there there's very

42:30

little development along the water cases where water

42:33

marcy the same beaches that we have

42:35

and the ten barrier to the south of here of

42:37

not a lot of people live on here

42:40

it's home to are a lot of rivers

42:42

that are pretty pristine that

42:44

flow into the gulf they have names

42:47

like the chess or wits gonna walk and sasha

42:50

and the wiki watch which some of your listeners

42:52

may have heard about the mermaids their oh

42:54

yeah oh yes very clean pristine

42:57

and state officials

42:59

and for officials are trying to keep it

43:01

that way so that's why the sea grass

43:04

is growing so well there that's right yeah

43:06

it's the waters quinn that the problem

43:08

we've had and the indian river lagoon over

43:10

on the atlantic coast is

43:12

that it's basically a com

43:14

a closed ecosystem it's a long

43:17

lagoon that only has a few cuts

43:19

through the barrier islands to the

43:22

web the atlantic ocean flush and that's

43:24

why there's been so many nutrients the

43:27

have been collecting there and and these

43:29

were you feeling algae blooms that kill

43:32

the seagrass at the manatees need to survive

43:35

yeah that's the key here the connection between

43:37

the cigarettes and and the manatees is

43:39

that there's a lot of secrets they love to eat right

43:41

in this area has a lot of flushing in the

43:43

gulf i went out with

43:45

sea water quality scientists with the southwest

43:48

florida water management district buzzing

43:50

of chris and stasio he's

43:52

would yeah to say about this does anyone spend

43:54

crystal river kings bay you know

43:56

in the wintertime nasa place to go to see manatees

43:58

says madison

43:59

on the grass is so the health of these grass

44:02

is ensure that those manatees

44:04

have plenty of food to eat

44:06

what were you doing out on the boat there with him

44:08

the do a survey of

44:11

the see grasses every once in a while just

44:13

to ten as check and see how they're doing

44:15

and yeah the beauty

44:17

of this was we weren't really expecting it but there's

44:19

more sea grass now than there was a few

44:21

years ago which is quite surprising a

44:24

it's not the way and in much of florida

44:26

you know with all the all the septic tanks

44:28

and or the of the lawn fertilizer

44:30

is that people put them on a kind of just fuel

44:33

these these algae blooms all

44:35

this area i mean eighty percent

44:37

of the sandy bottom was covered with seagrass

44:39

and he went down there is picking up a

44:42

drift algae and having a to me and let

44:45

me have a little taste it was quite delicious actually

44:47

know that i could eat the stuff foot off it

44:49

was really clear water so

44:51

the of the see grasses have plenty

44:53

of sunlight islamic jihad

44:57

yeah i got i guess

44:58

i get the wrath of florida could take lessons

45:00

from the nature coast to remedy their cigarettes

45:03

problem of was only that easier

45:05

the problem was we have so many people moving into the

45:07

state you know eight hundred to a thousand people

45:09

a day couldn't some estimates and

45:12

almost people to live in the cosell down

45:14

votes which or another the

45:16

threat to manatees and

45:19

made i do a lot of flushing which

45:21

goes in the septic tanks and all this development

45:24

and of fuels the amount of nutrients

45:26

gone in the water so this is

45:28

it's it's nice to see that not happening

45:30

in at least one point of floor there

45:33

anything you can do to remedy this issue

45:36

well via the state is mandating

45:38

them more places hook up to water

45:40

treatment systems rather than into septic

45:42

tanks and the other us fish

45:44

and wildlife service recently

45:46

agreed to a settlement with several

45:48

environmental groups to our publisher

45:51

proposed manatee critical habitat

45:53

revision and their plans by september

45:55

twenty twenty four at this rule

45:57

would bring enhance federal scrutiny to project

46:00

that might affect the manatees and

46:02

also the state of florida has agreed to spend

46:04

eight and a half million dollars on a variety projects

46:06

such as planting new seagrass

46:09

and improving water quality which is

46:11

basically

46:13

they're helping to build more water treatment plants get

46:15

rid some of the septic tanks are that's great

46:17

news and it's great to see that you have found

46:19

the great spot where they cigarettes is

46:21

going in the manatees a flourishing is

46:23

beautiful it's beautiful spot arms anybody

46:26

wants to get out there it's a scalping season

46:28

just ended but we do have do have of sponge

46:31

diving you tarpon springs is the big sponge

46:33

diving place to south of there and

46:36

a lot of good recreational fishing recreational fishing area

46:38

it's quite beautiful while the chamber of commerce

46:40

welcome zealand thanks to save save

46:42

newborn reporter for doubly u s

46:45

f in tampa thank you very coming i'm michelle

46:47

my pleasure iris

46:52

one more thing before we go if

46:54

you're anything like me you may have a soft

46:56

spot for fish tanks i mean

46:58

home aquariums yeah for

47:00

a long time long time a saltwater reef

47:02

tank in my living room it was

47:04

home to a few clownfish and emmys

47:07

and corals hang you know there

47:10

was something really therapeutic

47:12

about building in caring for my little

47:14

underwater community there's a

47:16

word for the craft of putting together an underwater

47:18

habitat rak was keeping

47:21

pack was gaping is the subject of our newest

47:23

science friday video out now

47:27

for most people that have never seen

47:29

an awful escape when they first the

47:31

one they're kinda blown away it's just

47:34

, new world but they didn't know was

47:36

possible possible a lot of

47:38

invisible science is happening in

47:40

what looks like clear water you

47:42

have to really understand how the plants

47:45

work and how the plants grow but aqua

47:47

escaping really is an art form

47:50

take , at the video on our website science

47:52

friday dot com slash tank and

47:54

since i was escaping is a hobby we've

47:57

got some great resources for

47:59

how you

47:59

can get into this again that

48:02

science friday dot com slash

48:04

tank and that's about it for this

48:07

our here's kathleen davis with some

48:09

of the folks who helped make this show happen

48:11

thanks ira the he my ass ment is

48:13

or manager of impacts strategy the

48:16

list the mayor's is our office manager any

48:18

nero is our individual giving manager

48:21

throws berquist as our radio director

48:23

and i'm kathleen davis radio producer

48:25

thanks for listening

48:27

thank you gasoline

48:28

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48:30

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