0:00

Hi. I'm Wendy Zuckerman and jealous

0:02

mean to science Basses Day on

0:04

the show were putting facts against

0:06

falling out of love as we

0:08

tackled. Heartbreak. Science

0:12

is about to help us with

0:14

one of our most universal experiences.

0:17

Getting. Dumped. So.

0:24

It's made Annabel, She decides bases with

0:26

that and she told us about her

0:29

big heart break. It all started when

0:31

she was in college. I was a

0:33

sophomore, he was a junior and it

0:35

was a total meet. Cute! It

0:37

was the first day of English class

0:40

and they were told to chat to

0:42

someone new for an icebreaker. So I

0:44

just turned to the person behind me

0:46

and he was sitting right behind me

0:48

and on it was one of those

0:50

like oh my gosh like the world

0:52

slowed down I felt like butterflies. I

0:54

was like oh hell oh are they

0:56

hit it off. And. After that, they

0:59

made a point of sitting next to each

1:01

other in every class. And the more Annabel

1:03

learned about this guy. The. War

1:05

she started falling for him. They.

1:08

Started setting up some study dates

1:10

that turned into real Daves. She.

1:12

Remembered why know? where? Everything

1:15

felt so perfect. It

1:17

was a day at the ballgame. He

1:20

was a big Angels fan. I'm a

1:22

big Dodgers fan and so that was

1:24

a cute little like oh man, my

1:26

team's gonna get your team new, I'm

1:29

gonna win and it was so fun

1:31

it was just it was a beautiful

1:33

day. I was happy and laughing. He

1:35

was happy and laughing and just not

1:37

like this like a country song. I

1:39

guess you know like take my girl

1:42

Luma true to my baseball game and

1:44

I was like oh I love this

1:46

that I was like they're going to

1:48

write love stories about. This and

1:50

okay I gotta say since

1:53

sex was really. Great.

1:56

At. One point and about boyfriend went to

1:58

study abroad in the Netherlands. He

2:00

visited him and during that trip that had

2:02

a blast. Then. The

2:04

trip is over. Time to Annabel

2:06

to go home. sit back, And other

2:09

staff said it's all sad

2:11

and it's here with something

2:13

strange happens. So. He

2:15

asked say is still takes him gifts back

2:17

for a family as I guess you're on

2:19

his or anything else you want me to

2:21

pack and he's like well. I

2:24

have a journal. It.

2:26

Was a Red Journal. It's the brand

2:28

new Mole Skyn More than a month

2:31

get? Yes? Yes Okay yeah yeah

2:33

yeah. Ceiling Etti bread move mean he

2:35

hands me the journal. And. His

2:37

Ike. Oh, but. I.

2:40

Don't know as I want you to read it or

2:42

not as like. She.

2:46

Backs the journal that's on Have flights.

2:49

And as soon as she's back in the

2:51

Us, Annabel is desperate. To hear from him. The.

2:54

Outside. Priests home eye opener

2:57

my laptop I I see an email

2:59

from him and he's like oh give

3:01

me to whom save I had a

3:03

great time Can we to see you

3:06

again? On and about the journal I

3:08

decided I will let you read the

3:10

journal and I was like. Oh

3:13

say he goes by.

3:15

It's going to be hard. For

3:18

you to read. And there

3:20

are some pages that are circles.

3:22

and if they're circles, that means

3:24

that's really gonna. Be hard for you

3:26

to read more. Clearly he plans

3:28

get a of time. Why? yeah he's like but

3:31

I don't want to see change anything between us

3:33

after you read it. I read

3:35

the journal. He's saying that I'm

3:37

a party girl. That I'm a

3:40

stoner. It's ah. I

3:42

did forget to mention that during

3:44

his time in Europe, there was

3:46

this girl who kept popping up.

3:50

On I was like oh. Oh

3:52

oh, Really like her. She seems

3:54

to be a little flirty. With

3:56

you. And he was totally

3:58

gas lady of like know. Now

4:01

she's not. You're just imagining it.

4:03

Well, shockingly in the Journal, Find

4:05

out he likes or he's wanted

4:07

to date her. An.

4:12

Adult those? That's what. did he know they would

4:14

get? heartbeat? Away. Yeah

4:16

those are the pages that he circled edge

4:19

as he just he. Was calling me

4:21

a bitch and he was writing a

4:23

nag. it is. An. Ssri

4:25

about me when I was

4:27

there Visit I am. When

4:30

I was on reading it, I threw the

4:32

journal so hard across the room that it

4:35

hit the wall and the spinal of. The

4:37

Journal Bro Dollars. A

4:42

week later they met on Skype. And

4:45

it was done. And even

4:47

though she knew he'd done this, stupidity

4:49

saying. She. Was so

4:51

heartbroken he would star replaying things of

4:54

like well what is this was difference

4:56

What if I did something difference I'm

4:58

feeling the pain and I'm so sad

5:01

and like I said sobbing side Why

5:03

am I so sad This is not.

5:05

Normal. But. It wasn't

5:07

just feeling crappy in her head.

5:10

Susan physical pain see could feel

5:12

is hop break through the whole

5:14

body. There was like a

5:16

satanism my chest. That. Lingered

5:18

for a while and in

5:21

my god, it's. So.

5:24

Much so that I did signed of

5:26

lose an appetite for Have found a

5:28

week. Where even my

5:30

friends were late. Girl: you

5:32

gotta eat. For. Annabel was

5:35

a mess. And. Of course,

5:37

when it comes a heartbreak, see

5:39

is not alone. In fact, when

5:41

we reached out to do that,

5:43

Alice has we had so many

5:45

stories. have you been so terribly

5:48

hot? broken people saying they just

5:50

felt so bad like just quickly

5:52

his and novelists now. That will

5:54

hear from today me he'd been totally

5:57

in love with his boyfriend and when

5:59

a family. Did. He

6:01

just felt so awful. I used

6:03

as remember a a physically hurt

6:06

like my heart and my chest

6:08

heard it was hard for my

6:10

brain to understand lakes why am

6:13

I physically hurting so much that

6:15

so cliche on like earth ah

6:17

light is just in country song

6:20

like get both. Since.

6:26

They were gonna find out what is

6:28

happening on our brains and bodies as

6:30

we have down in the dumps. Qualifying

6:34

walk through science teach us about

6:36

how to get over our says

6:38

and to that's on few months.

6:40

Happy place! Several years ago we

6:42

fast delve into the science a

6:44

pop rights but zeit leave us

6:47

out of the science and when

6:49

dipping app has. Them. When

6:52

it comes to hop rights as a lot as this

6:54

is not. Normal. But then does

6:56

Sundance? Fans

7:00

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Learn more at U H one.com. Welcome

7:59

back! We're finding out what science can

8:01

tell us about heartbreak and we wanted to

8:03

start with what is. Happening in our

8:06

brain and someone stumps all. Over

8:08

our hot seventies we need. My

8:10

name is Lucy Brown. I'm a

8:13

neuroscientist. Lucy. Is a professor

8:15

at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in

8:17

New York, and he did this groundbreaking

8:19

study. On our brains on heartbreak.

8:22

But. He said that when her colleagues first

8:24

found out that she wanted to study heartbreak.

8:27

Several. I hate it is neurosciences.

8:29

Said oh with seem to miss

8:31

season too much emotion he can

8:33

study has scientifically it seems magical

8:36

we said. I do think maybe we

8:38

can. Sell Lucy and a few

8:40

colleagues took a crack at In. Their

8:43

idea was it. If you put heartbroken

8:45

people into an M R i am

8:47

ashamed Maybe you could see how post

8:49

in my bones. My. Father said

8:52

brains with lot of in some unique

8:54

was. The fact. That

8:56

the Heartbreak Squad it needed a

8:58

bunch of people who was heartbroken.

9:01

Being. At university is they put out

9:03

flyers all over the campus saying have

9:05

you been rejected in love but com

9:07

like go. Give. Us a Go.

9:10

Amanda's puffy i'd college kids walked

9:13

through that door. The research is

9:15

awesome. A ton of questions to

9:17

make sure that they were truly.

9:19

Truly heartbroken. The

9:21

main thing is if they can't

9:24

stop thinking about the other person

9:26

that it's really being obsessed with

9:28

thinking about. The other person. They're

9:31

crying a lot. They can't

9:33

sleep. Fifteen. Sleep deprived

9:35

Sad Sacks fit the bill. To

9:37

lose These experiments. Now.

9:40

To. The brain scan. To

9:43

make sure that they guinea pigs would

9:45

be all sad and heartbroken. while they

9:48

were getting an M R I, the

9:50

researchers asked them to bring in a

9:52

photo of their once beloved space so

9:54

they were actually looking into they'd jump

9:57

his eyes while or within the scanner.

10:00

Believe me, when you're in that

10:02

machine and you open your eyes

10:05

and you'll it's like right there

10:07

you are, immersed. In that

10:09

person, That.

10:11

Must have been awful. Oh

10:13

they were crying the real remembering

10:15

the heartbreak. guess they really came

10:17

out crying O L tears in

10:20

in the scanner tears down their

10:22

face was. Didn't. See

10:24

that it's fake about the sister Angela

10:26

Bone Lucy and her team needed to

10:28

do one panel thing for had the

10:30

same college kids looked at a photo

10:32

of someone else while they were in

10:34

the M R I have someone they

10:36

were emotionally attached to it all sense.

10:38

The researchers compared the to brain scans.

10:41

And Lucy remembers when the results

10:43

and each one started coming in.

10:46

I do. I drew. On

10:48

One I first put into

10:51

the first ten. And

10:53

then twelve. And then

10:56

fourteen and I first looked at.

11:00

It wouldn't really say. Experiment

11:06

last she could see heartbreak in

11:08

the brain and listen to all

11:10

this about so very curious findings.

11:13

One of the things that was

11:15

interesting is that a part of

11:17

the brain that. Registers

11:20

physical pain, Was

11:22

active so we weren't. Feeling the physical

11:25

pain? You know that like a pincer,

11:27

a cop, or broken bones. But that

11:29

part of the. Brain. That says

11:31

it. This hurts that's active interest

11:33

in like I think about that

11:35

as different things to break my

11:38

legs to break up with some

11:40

time, but it's not active and

11:42

it's not that different. Snow, trust

11:44

us. Physical piece New to see

11:46

emotional pain those two are interacting

11:48

over to him. And

11:53

his all fits with a growing

11:55

body of research showing this connection

11:57

between physical pain, And. Emotional pain.

12:00

And it's also just saying that when

12:03

people say I'm hurting. They.

12:05

Are literally heard it. And

12:08

this doesn't just happen in heartbreak. It

12:10

can also happen at other times like

12:12

when we get rejected or less out

12:15

of the game. It's what science cause

12:17

social rejection. And that. Said.

12:19

Upset hurting part of a break. But.

12:22

Lucy also saw that when those the

12:25

heartbreak and sat looked at their exes.

12:27

Another. Part of the brain lit up. The.

12:30

Reward system. Is

12:32

system gets triggered when we do stuff

12:34

like chocolate, had drugs, you know, the

12:36

fun ones and when we're in love.

12:39

So. It's this this to thing

12:42

is causing them pain but but

12:44

there he or she is that's

12:46

not say said gave so much

12:49

pleasure. So many good

12:51

times made me feel so good in

12:53

my heart. So

12:55

we can see in their brains that

12:58

they raised their acts, but they can

13:00

no longer have them. And that's

13:02

where the heartbreak san. The.

13:04

All this stuff is going on in our

13:06

brain. And it turns

13:08

out that this can have real

13:11

effects on our body. The brain

13:13

is influencing the body and all

13:15

these systems are interacting. So

13:18

researchers found that after losing a

13:20

partner, certain hormones like cortisol can

13:22

start racing around our body as

13:24

is a stressful. That and early

13:26

research suggests that this cascade of

13:28

stress can cause real problems. Surveys

13:30

have found that it can affect

13:33

your sleep sometimes months. It can

13:35

also mess up your immune system.

13:38

And one more thing. I can

13:40

quite literally such a

13:42

hot. In.

13:44

Ways that you can really feel. You.

13:47

Do you feel up a

13:49

deep sentence? Site. Ceiling.

13:53

In. Your trust. In some

13:55

cases, you can get pain in

13:57

your heart that's actually quite serious.

13:59

It. The hype of heart failure of and

14:01

it's known. As are good, so do

14:04

syndrome. During packet So this one

14:06

chamber of your hot balloons up in

14:08

this very specific way which is actually

14:10

where the. Syndrome gets it's name from

14:12

your hot stuff to look at like

14:14

a Japanese octopus trap which is called

14:17

a tepid So boots and you can

14:19

get suckered Said these are the other

14:21

times of stress to make public speaking.

14:24

And there was even this case report of it

14:26

happening to someone after they ate too much with

14:28

saw. Sites.

14:31

Where does all of this leave us? While

14:35

we now know that

14:37

heartbreak can cause real,

14:39

measurable effects, Throughout your

14:41

body, it can increase the

14:43

stress hormones. Cause sleep problems and

14:45

even chest pains. To.

14:48

Fall You heartbroken folks out there.

14:50

You're not crazy. this is your

14:52

brain is is a physiological thing.

14:55

You're not to blame for this. Don't blame

14:57

yourself for all of this. Fight.

15:00

Man, Annabel told us that

15:02

knowing that heartbroken cause real

15:05

physical pain it's really helpful.

15:07

And it's something they both wish

15:10

they knew at the time I

15:12

wouldn't have felt so stupid or

15:14

silly. Sincerity leaving validating and you

15:17

feel more normalize? If your ceiling

15:19

physical pain, that's normal, that's that's

15:21

okay. You know you're not just

15:24

being a dramatic Disney princess. After

15:30

the break the best science on how

15:32

to get over your ex. Was.

15:35

Getting rid of the blood sucking vampire

15:37

in your life. Is coming up.

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Family killings were ever. You get

17:29

your podcast. The

17:37

math today on the sale hop

17:39

like we know he truly truly

17:41

sucks to be heartbroken and even

17:43

feel it throughout your body and your

17:45

brain. And now we want to

17:47

know. Can you get over

17:49

it and get to that? Heartbreak

17:51

feels good in a place like this.

17:54

Place. says out.

17:56

Let's. Get some answers by looking into

17:59

Princess Inside. bad habits. So

18:02

one thing which has been shown to help

18:04

people is to stay away from

18:06

triggers or cues. So

18:09

for example, if you want to stop

18:11

eating popcorn, don't go to the cinema.

18:13

There was actually a study of this,

18:15

it helps. If you want

18:17

to quit smoking, don't have cigarettes around.

18:19

And when it comes to heartbreak, applying

18:21

the same logic, if you

18:24

want to stop thinking about your ex, clear

18:26

out their text messages, block them on

18:28

Instagram. Throw away all

18:30

of the things that

18:32

were associated with that person. You

18:35

should just get rid of them. Go live

18:38

somewhere else entirely. If you're really having

18:40

a big problem, just get

18:42

away from there. But

18:45

if you can't uproot your entire life

18:47

to get over someone, we did find another

18:49

helpful suggestion in the literature. And it's

18:52

called negative reappraisal. It's

18:54

a fancy science phrase for

18:57

saying, just keep reminding yourself

18:59

of what a turd your ex was.

19:02

Annabelle did a lot of this too. You know,

19:04

like it would be, okay,

19:06

this was a red flag, so I shouldn't be so

19:08

sad. Oh, okay. A little bit

19:10

of the tightness went away. He

19:12

never liked my friends. And

19:15

that's important to me. Okay, a little bit

19:17

of the tightness went away. And when

19:19

it came to negative reappraisal, Annabelle's

19:21

mates were very helpful. You

19:24

know, my friends being like, yeah, we f***ing hated that

19:26

guy, like good on you for breaking up with him.

19:29

But it's not all just thinking they were such

19:31

a schmuck. And trust me, they

19:34

were a schmuck. On

19:36

the flip side, researchers found that

19:38

it's a good idea to try to

19:41

reframe the breakup. Like something,

19:43

oh, I wish I was different. And

19:45

then they would have liked me. Instead,

19:47

try to see that the relationship

19:49

was holding you back, or that

19:51

you grew from it, or that you couldn't truly

19:53

be yourself around them. You

19:56

know, you realize, I can

19:58

find myself flowers, I can hold my

20:00

own hand. I can

20:02

love me better than you can. Annabelle

20:06

says looking back, the breakup was

20:08

absolutely the right step for her.

20:10

Yeah, it was so

20:12

hard, but it was so necessary. Like the

20:14

person I became after that was

20:17

just the complete opposite of who

20:19

I was going into it. I feel like if

20:21

I didn't have shit relationships, then

20:23

I wouldn't have been able to identify what a

20:25

really good one is.

20:28

100%, 100%. And if you're not

20:30

ready for personal growth just yet, take

20:33

heart. Time heals

20:35

all wounds, or at

20:37

least it can help. A

20:40

survey of almost 200 uni students found

20:42

that people tended to be less distressed if

20:44

there had been more time since their breakup. And

20:47

this is true not just for humans, but

20:49

there's also research about this in voles.

20:54

So voles are these little potato-shaped

20:56

rotas that are very cute, and

20:58

they're known for partnering up for

21:00

life. And if scientists

21:02

take away their lovers, the voles get

21:05

really stressed, but

21:07

even they can get over a breakup.

21:10

And you can see this in the

21:12

chemicals in their body. So

21:14

just this year, a study was published

21:16

that found that while soon after

21:19

a breakup, the voles would get this dopamine

21:21

hit if they saw their X. After

21:24

time had passed, when

21:26

they saw their X, that

21:29

dopamine surge went away. And

21:33

for Matt, time was

21:35

one thing that helped for sure. Eventually

21:37

I got to a place where when I did

21:40

see him again, it didn't

21:42

trigger me in any kind of

21:44

way. In fact, it was like, I

21:46

was almost annoyed, like, ugh. Some

21:49

studies have found that writing or journaling about

21:51

your emotions after a breakup might help

21:53

you feel a little better. Therapy is also

21:56

a good one, and it has been found

21:58

to help with those pesky rubies. intimidating

22:00

thoughts. And

22:04

then, just finally, there are some things

22:06

that will help you get over a breakup that

22:09

you can't read about in the scientific literature.

22:13

So Matt loves to go out dancing,

22:15

and it's something his ex wouldn't let him do.

22:18

Matt's ex could be abusive, like getting

22:20

really jealous. And for Matt,

22:23

not going out dancing? That just

22:25

killed me. I'm like, that's my joy. That's, that's

22:27

everything. That's where my source of

22:29

joy really is. I love to dance. And

22:32

he's like, no, you can't do that anymore. And

22:34

when things ended, and Matt was in that

22:37

pit of despair, he found

22:39

something to make him feel better. Or

22:43

rather, someone. The

22:45

best way that I knew how to

22:49

get through my feelings was dancing

22:52

in my room. There was one

22:55

set of CDs that I came back to and would

22:57

go over and over again. And

22:59

that is one woman, the woman

23:01

who is every woman, and that was

23:03

Whitney Houston. Whitney

23:06

Houston's greatest hits collection had just

23:08

come out. And Matt

23:10

played that album on repeat.

23:13

First he listened to the sad tracks that

23:15

made him cry, like, didn't we

23:17

almost have it all? And he'd

23:20

always finished dancing his heart out to

23:22

one final track.

23:25

The song that meant the most to me was, I want

23:29

to dance with somebody who loves me, because

23:31

that was really what I felt. I

23:34

kept coming back to that moment over

23:36

and over again, where I had started

23:38

dancing in the club with him.

23:41

And he just looked at me with disgust. When

23:43

Whitney sings, I want to dance with somebody

23:46

who loves me. That was it. That

23:49

expressed everything that I ever wanted to

23:51

express. And that's where I found myself

23:53

again. And so even to

23:55

this day, when I hear that song,

23:57

it just... me

24:00

to this place of yes, that's what

24:02

I want. Years

24:04

later, Matt is

24:07

doing great. He's totally over that

24:09

relationship. And so is Atta Bell.

24:12

In fact, her current partner. He's

24:14

literally the best person in

24:16

the entire fucking world. I

24:20

mean, he introduced me to science versus, I mean,

24:22

clearly he's amazing. Oh, that way. Okay.

24:28

So when it comes to the

24:30

sides of heartbreak, is what

24:32

we've learnt. It's real. You

24:34

can see it in our brains, in

24:37

our hearts, and even in our immune

24:39

systems. And to hack

24:41

your way out of heartbreak, try

24:44

reminding yourself what a twerp they were.

24:47

Try avoiding triggers like the fun things you

24:49

used to do together. Don't drive past

24:51

their house at night. Olivia Rodrigo, she knew what

24:53

was going on. And

24:55

also, let's discount the

24:57

healing powers of Whitney. Oh,

25:01

wait, where does that go? I

25:03

still have to tell you about what became

25:06

of that journal. You know,

25:08

Annabelle's ex's red

25:10

bullskin journal. Well,

25:13

the thing is, after her breakup, she called

25:15

up her stepmom. I was like, I'm not

25:17

giving it back to him, but I don't

25:20

want to just throw it away because I

25:22

feel like that's not enough justice. And

25:24

she just goes, burn

25:26

it. I was

25:28

like, I

25:31

have to go. There's

25:33

going to be a bonfire. I was already living

25:35

with one of my best friends, so I call

25:37

another one of my girlfriends and I was like,

25:40

Brittany, we're having a bonfire

25:42

tonight. She was like, hell

25:44

yeah. She comes over. We

25:46

take one of our pots from our kitchen. It's like

25:48

one of our sauce pots. We go

25:51

outside on the balcony page by page.

25:54

You get a page by page.

25:56

Oh, wow. Oh, we did it

25:58

page by page. How did it

26:01

feel as you were burning it? It

26:03

was phenomenal. It

26:05

was absolutely phenomenal. One

26:08

of the things that he had problems with was

26:10

me smoking weed with my friends. And

26:12

he wrote about that multiple times

26:14

in the journal. So my best

26:16

friend took one of those entries,

26:19

rolled up a joint with it, and

26:22

we used the

26:25

flames of the burning journal

26:28

to light the joint that I

26:30

smoked. That is so sweet. Yeah.

26:38

That's Science vs. This

26:41

episode has 64 citations in it. If

26:46

you want to read more about the science of heartbreak, then

26:48

just head to our show notes and

26:50

click on the link to our transcript and

26:52

you will see a fully sighted, beautiful

26:55

script full of beautiful science.

26:59

A huge thanks to all

27:01

of the listeners who shared your heartbreak stories with

27:03

us. Oh my gosh, we read every single one.

27:05

We pored over them. We

27:08

really, really appreciate that you sent

27:10

those and felt comfortable. Thank you

27:12

so much. If you want

27:15

to appear on a episode of Science

27:17

vs. telling us your story of various

27:19

things, keep an eye out on our social

27:21

media. You could go to our Instagram,

27:23

which is science underscore vs. We often have

27:26

little call outs where we want to hear from you. Also,

27:28

my TikTok is at Wendy's

27:30

Zuckerman. Now, in this

27:33

episode, we did talk about some tough

27:35

stuff, and if you are going through

27:37

a nasty, maybe even abusive relationship and you

27:39

just want to talk to someone, we're

27:41

going to put some resources in our

27:43

show notes. This

27:51

episode was produced by Michelle Bang. With help

27:54

from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Rose Remler, Meryl Horne,

27:56

Caitlin Surry and Lexi Club. Editing

27:58

by Caitlin Kenny and Brad Fact-checking

28:01

by Diane Kelly and Erica Akiko Howard.

28:04

Nooks and Sand designs by Peter Leonard

28:06

and Bobby Lord. Music written by Peter

28:08

Leonard, Zumi Hidaka, Emma Munger and Bobby

28:10

Lord. A huge thanks to all of

28:13

the scientists that we reached out to

28:15

for this episode, including Professor Larry Young,

28:17

Professor Tiffany Field, Professor Ethan Cross, Professor

28:19

Sandra Lager-Slag and Professor Naomi Eisenberger. Thanks

28:22

to Laurie Siegel. A special thanks to the

28:25

Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. I'm Wendy

28:27

Zuckerman. Back to you next week.