0:00

Hi. I'm wendy sick of a jealousy decides

0:02

vs. Today

0:05

on the show were. Glad.

0:07

Drzal yes I am Flight thrill I'm editor

0:09

of the show when they we are here

0:11

in the studio of are very important reason

0:13

I have a story feel. I came

0:16

across this story about a year ago

0:18

actually moving and I have not been

0:20

able to get it out of my

0:23

head. is so weird. It is so

0:25

much fun and it has everything. Wendy,

0:27

everything. Every yes. It's got dinosaurs. Who?

0:30

It's got Nerd phase. It's got eighteen

0:32

hundreds, New York City politics, law. So

0:34

we get started yes, address or adding

0:37

time and space. Where do we begin?

0:41

Okay, money. Imagine. It. Is

0:43

the eighteen seventies and we

0:45

are in a room full

0:48

of massive models of dinosaurs.

0:50

These super cool life size

0:52

models and you're walking among

0:54

them. They're like you know,

0:56

the towering over. You know

0:58

we've got a mediator. We've

1:00

got a plant eater. maybe

1:02

we've got like other prehistoric

1:04

creatures mammoth, the a giant

1:06

armadillos. A last resort is

1:09

one of those water creature

1:11

yeah I like. And these.

1:13

Models is gorgeous! Super Go Models are

1:15

destined for this museum. That is the

1:17

first time ever that most people ever

1:19

have seen a dinosaur and it is

1:21

going to be a complete game changer.

1:23

People are going to like it's gonna

1:25

blow people's minds flour. Okay

1:32

but when here's my you have to imagine it.

1:35

Because. Before this museum ever had a

1:37

chance to open, Something

1:40

happened. I would like

1:42

to paint a little bit of a picture

1:44

for you. So it's May third, Eighteen, seventy

1:46

One who. A. Group of deeds shows

1:48

up. They've got. Sledgehammers.

1:50

Okay, and these thugs bust

1:52

and just go absolutely nuts.

1:55

They smash. Everything.

1:57

Every mall,

2:00

All every it's a life

2:02

sized has made dinosaur. every

2:04

little tiny model of the

2:06

future lifestyles dinosaur that to.

2:09

Smithereens, And then

2:11

Monday Wednesdays, thirds of mass. Everything

2:13

up. They. Take all the bits

2:15

and pieces away, part them off, and

2:17

bury them. Somewhere under

2:20

Central Park in vindictive.

2:22

What? It's like why yes why

2:24

know this is a wild story and

2:27

actually like this is a story that

2:29

has like mesmerized people for. A

2:31

hundred and fifty years like a paper where the

2:33

like just came out on his last year. Sort

2:35

of like turning out new. Stuff in this story.

2:37

Oh wow, what might have happened and

2:39

why? and like. What maniac

2:42

was behind this? That

2:44

is what we're going to get into today,

2:46

right? We're gonna dig into this guy know

2:48

museum mystery soon. And. This episode

2:51

that I am calling the

2:53

Great Dinosaurs mess up to

2:55

the moon and eighty seven

2:58

us. We're

3:01

going to get incident so good at it after

3:03

the break. guess. Is

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great diners smash out of

4:29

eighteen seventy one. It's. We.

4:31

Were supposed to have some awesome dinosaur

4:33

museum. And we had what

4:35

if the of dust. What happened? What

4:37

happened to the s center city? Let's

4:40

had their. Cats New.

4:43

York City. Eighteen sixties, Eighteen sixties stuff

4:45

is going down. The city is growing

4:47

and they have just stilts. A fancy.

4:49

New park like Central Park. Now

4:51

I want to mention that one of the things

4:53

they didn't make that part is like kick people

4:55

off the land like hundreds of black. New Yorkers

4:57

were displaced insistent other New Yorkers. As

4:59

well. Look the part that New York

5:01

has this park and they are trying

5:03

to figure out what to put in

5:06

it. And at this time Lindy we're

5:08

like starting to creep up toward Dinosaur

5:10

Mania moon as hot as a What

5:12

A Good What do we know that

5:14

dinosaurs in. The. Eighteen

5:16

sixties. Today Any listen we got

5:18

some the dinosaurs to of museum. you know

5:20

your average four year old can barely went

5:22

from but but they can tell you what

5:24

a triceratops is Why? I mean it's like

5:26

the dinosaurs arlette part of our culture as

5:28

in a way that's a totally were nuts

5:30

in the period of time to read yet.

5:32

so what's going on is like over in

5:34

Europe. They've dug up a you the

5:36

fossils, they've undergone it on that medalists

5:38

well as some stuff like that. ah

5:41

enemy was. Actually we got our first

5:43

flight. Home grown you as.this is the

5:45

reason for this. and that of in new

5:47

jersey actually of as into scientists are kinda just

5:49

starting to pieces together to get a picture of

5:51

like what a dinosaur might have looked like and

5:53

so go to like big about what it would

5:55

be like. To be. Like. during

5:57

that lack of the other and accept We've

6:00

got a new box. We

6:02

got new dinosaurs. So yes,

6:04

and this is where a

6:07

British guy called Benjamin Waterhouse

6:09

Hawkins enters our story. Yeah.

6:12

Wendy, do you know the phrase BFD? No.

6:17

Like, oh, we can use freaking.

6:19

Big freaking deal. Because what

6:21

BFD stands for? Because in

6:23

this story, a f***ing deal. Big f***ing deal.

6:25

In this story, Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins is a

6:28

big f***ing deal. Okay. So

6:30

let me tell you a little bit about this guy. He's an artist and

6:32

a sculptor in the UK and who does tons of nature

6:34

drawings. He's actually done drawings for, I don't

6:36

know, a little someone named Charles Darwin. Maybe

6:39

you've heard of him. Okay. Okay.

6:42

All right. One historian actually wrote

6:44

that, quote, Hawkins almost single-handedly ignited a

6:46

popular interest in dinosaurs and other forms

6:49

of prehistoric life that continues to the

6:51

present day. The big thing

6:53

Hawkins does is in London. He designed and

6:56

built these massive concrete models

6:58

of dinosaurs. Right. And actually,

7:00

they still exist today. So we sent our producer,

7:03

Michelle Deng, to check them out. Cool.

7:06

There he is. I'm coming up on him. Oh,

7:09

there's a lot of them. So

7:12

looking specifically at the agronodon.

7:17

I don't know. His hands are, his

7:19

paws are, his paws or his claws

7:22

are too big. He

7:24

has no neck. Wow.

7:28

Because this is, because this is

7:30

the 1800s. I don't know what that is. Right.

7:33

He's got the body of a bear, but

7:37

he has a very fantastic rasp.

7:39

You're big. You're big. The

7:43

bear combined with an alligator. It

7:47

looks like, it

7:49

kind of looks like a Godzilla. You

7:51

know, it was, it was the best. The best they could do.

7:56

And this is actually when we hit a really big moment in our

7:58

story, because get this, Wendy. This

8:01

guy, this artist, Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins,

8:03

he just happens to show up

8:06

in New York City in 1868. Seriously?

8:09

Like just as they're trying to work out what to do

8:11

with Central Park. That's like, that's

8:14

like Dinosaur Museum Kismet. The

8:16

best kind of Kismet, I would say. So

8:19

the people in charge of Central Park, they get wind of

8:21

this and they're like, oh, this is great. Like

8:23

we want you to build us some dinosaurs. And thus

8:25

the plan, Wendy, for the Paleozoic Museum is born. So

8:31

the park organizers, the park planners

8:33

who bring on Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins,

8:36

they basically roll out the red carpet for this guy.

8:38

Right. They're like, we're going to pay you a

8:40

bunch of money. And then they set him

8:42

up in this massive building on the park property

8:44

on the park grounds called the Arceval. It

8:46

looks like a castle, very, very thin windows. So

8:49

I went there with Carl Maling, paleontologist. Did

8:52

you notice the railing on the stairs? Oh,

8:54

is it gun? Wow. That

8:56

really completes the imagery. How did I miss

8:59

that? So do you

9:01

think Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins walked up these stairs every day

9:03

to go to work? I have

9:05

no doubt. I mean, there's other ways in the building,

9:07

but why would you choose a different one if that's

9:09

your way in? You got to use the gun

9:11

stairs. Right. So

9:14

you can imagine Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins here

9:16

in this castle covered in guns. Yes.

9:19

And he has got huge plans for this New York

9:21

museum. Oh, what kind of plans? There's

9:24

a description of this dinosaur display from this

9:27

book called Dinosaurs in the Attic. And

9:30

it says Waterhouse Hawkins, quote, planned to

9:32

show the Hadrosaurus being attacked by a

9:34

carnivorous dinosaur, Leilaps, while two other Leilaps

9:36

feasted on the corpse of yet another

9:39

Hadrosaur. Ooh. This description goes

9:41

on to say that nearby the marine

9:43

reptile, Elasmosaurus would lurk in the shallow

9:45

water of a pool. Moving farther along

9:47

the evolutionary ladder, Hawkins had planned for

9:49

two giant armadillos, mastodons, giant sloths, and

9:51

a giant elk. So he's like going all out.

9:54

Yeah. He's like, you and me to build dinosaurs, I'll

9:56

do you one better. Yeah. I got a

9:58

whole scene of animals that didn't really close this, and I was fine. Don't

10:01

worry about that word. would you like to see

10:03

a picture by with a lot of this is

10:06

in. His have. Here

10:08

it is oh why our even try even

10:10

today this would I mean obviously this episode

10:12

six and to keep up with and like

10:14

this one is like soda had with or

10:16

the is that know that of that look

10:19

at his leg when he likes of six

10:21

dinosaurs We know this about how and again

10:23

this would be the first this within the

10:25

first time a New York is it a

10:27

seen anything like that. So.

10:31

To get more on all this I called of

10:33

the historian is gonna be key to our story.

10:35

Forget her name is Vicky Clothes and she's at

10:37

the University of Bristol in the Uk. Can.

10:39

You imagine seeing that for the first time

10:41

ever that like noom as an experiencing that

10:43

oh I think. It would be more exciting

10:45

I think it would have from Will be

10:48

Quibble and have. Somebody. In

10:50

the sixties and seventies going to

10:52

do think that it would have

10:54

transported. Them into another world. Here

10:57

is Carl on us to our paleontologists.

11:00

What do you think it would feel like to walk inside of

11:02

the hall? Panic in the

11:04

best way and has heard animal

11:06

had participated in a lot of

11:08

is really really really exhibits make

11:10

desist mastered Arms that remounted which

11:12

is is this mounted? Go and.

11:16

Women would come in and soon and

11:18

pass out. Views are throwing off in

11:20

high known in a receiving my business

11:22

and it was probably sacking. I'm

11:25

getting very sad that we don't have

11:27

this today. I want to know what

11:30

went wrong and or it so that

11:32

the person that happens is you member

11:34

that beautiful building he within that arsenal

11:36

that we talked about. yes mother says

11:38

yeah so Benjamin one has Hawkins He

11:40

gets moved from that beautiful space. Across

11:43

the park. To. Work In. This

11:45

said. Instead, that takes

11:47

us through the that Sullivan

11:50

infamy went in. Through the

11:52

great dinosaur mess up. went

12:00

in and smashed everything up

12:03

into small pieces. It's

12:08

so thoroughly pulverized

12:10

that you wouldn't recognize it if you

12:12

found it. This wasn't just some

12:14

mindless vandalism. They were actually sent in.

12:17

It is so bananas even for the

12:19

time. It's

12:21

bizarre. They could have

12:23

said, you know, sorry, Mr. Hawkins, or

12:26

get out of here, ask the s***,

12:28

they could have said that. But destroying

12:30

everything is bizarre and cruel.

12:36

Yeah, yeah. So

12:39

what happened and why? Why?

12:43

Yeah, why? Yes, that is the question.

12:45

Why? Oh, there's even, before we get into

12:47

the why, there's one thing that I find particularly potentially outrageous. One

12:50

report that I saw said they might have

12:53

actually not just smashed up the models. It's

12:55

possible they smashed up some real prehistoric fossils

12:58

at the same time because there were bits

13:00

of an Elasmosaurus that had been loaned to

13:02

Hawkins that have never been found again. What?

13:04

Yeah, like here, it's just, here's

13:07

Vicky. I mean, I don't know of

13:09

anything else that compares to this in

13:11

the history of museums, in the

13:13

history of dinosaur discovery. And

13:15

it was so final. So

13:17

done. So done. We don't know if Hawkins

13:20

was there at the time. I did ask

13:22

Vicky, like, God, how do you think, like,

13:24

how? Just like, how do you think he would have reacted to this? I

13:28

think it would have been

13:30

a combination of absolutely incandescent

13:32

with rage because of the

13:34

injustice, absolutely

13:36

incensed, and also devastated.

13:38

You could argue it would have broken his

13:40

heart. OK. I

13:43

want answers, but we're going to get answers. After

13:45

the break. Whoa. Oh. Do

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15:42

welcome back today on the show, the museum

15:44

that wasn't where we left off. This

15:48

artist, Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins was

15:50

creating the most beautiful dinosaur

15:52

museum the world has ever

15:54

seen. It would have been

15:56

amazing today. We could

15:59

have seen it at this moment.

16:01

But instead, it doesn't exist and

16:03

we're finding out why. Yes, we

16:06

are. Let's get back to it. Okay. Why

16:08

would someone do it? Okay. So that is

16:10

what our historian Vicky wanted to know as

16:12

well. And in a bunch

16:14

of the stuff that she was seeing about this,

16:16

right, one guy was getting

16:19

blamed. His name

16:22

is William Boss Tweed. Familiar?

16:27

I can't say. I have. I'm

16:29

familiar. All right. Well, that's good. That's

16:31

why I'm here. Okay. All right. So New

16:33

York City in the mid 1800s is basically

16:35

run by this group of corrupt Democrats. Okay.

16:37

So nothing's changed. But

16:40

I'm cheating. Okay. All right. And

16:45

within this group, Boss Tweed is

16:48

at the top of the heat. Okay. On this bunch of

16:50

land. He's a politician. He was a state senator and

16:52

he's got his mitts in everything around town.

16:55

And I think it's fair to say that

16:57

generally speaking, like history has shown this guy

16:59

to be like kind of a shady character.

17:01

All right. He's been accused of doing all

17:03

kinds of stuff like vote rigging, you know,

17:05

extortion, bribery, the greatest hits

17:07

of your 1800s mid 1800s in New York politician. And

17:13

here is actually how Vicki describes Boss Tweed.

17:15

He was known for being a very very

17:17

big man and tall as well. So I

17:20

mean he would have a very commanding presence.

17:22

I mean, he wasn't just part. He was

17:24

huge and he surrounded himself by his, put

17:27

one to a better word, flunkies who sort

17:29

of did his bidding and they

17:32

became the Tweed ring. Okay.

17:36

Well, I think if Boss Tweed, I can't imagine him as like,

17:39

you know, hey, here's a bag of

17:41

cash. Right. They had your motor for me. Yeah.

17:44

And the Tweed ring is very suspicious.

17:46

Like you need someone to smash up

17:48

a shed full of dinosaurs. Like Tweed

17:51

rings gonna help you out. Yeah. Okay, boss. Okay, we

17:53

got it. We got it. We just gotta smash it

17:55

to smith wreaths. Like is that? Yeah.

18:00

People were suspicious that Boss Tweed was behind

18:02

this Dino Smash-Up for a few reasons. Mm-hmm.

18:05

Okay, like for one thing, before the Smash-Up,

18:08

Tweed had put some new people in charge

18:10

of the park. Mm-hmm. And

18:13

these people also eventually, like, they

18:15

canceled the museum. Oh. Yeah.

18:19

Like, they had kind of told Waterhouse

18:21

Hawkins to back off, and they were like, actually,

18:23

we don't think we want this paleozoic museum at all. Oh.

18:26

So... Suspicious, yeah? Yeah.

18:30

I mean, as far as motive for

18:32

Tweed, people threw, like, people

18:34

have generally thrown a few of these around. There

18:36

were comments at the time about, oh,

18:39

how Tweed probably killed this

18:41

because he couldn't figure out how to

18:43

make money off of it. Oh, right, right,

18:45

right. Yeah, like, one of the

18:47

books later written about this says,

18:49

quote, Tweed was angry because he could

18:52

find no way to reap illegal profits

18:54

and kickbacks from the museum's construction. Right.

18:56

So petty. So, Wendy, I'm a

18:59

little offended at the idea of somebody, like, trying

19:01

to make illegal money off of dinosaurs. That's what was

19:03

the downfall of Jurassic Park. Oh, you're right. That's

19:06

right. There's this other theory

19:08

that Tweed was mad because

19:10

after the museum was canceled, he got in some

19:12

bad press, like, some science nerds said some stuff

19:14

in the New York Times about him. So

19:17

the bottom line here is that, like, for

19:19

decades, you know, nerds have been

19:21

like, yeah, Tweed, the Tweed ring, he's the one who's

19:23

got blood on his hands or... They did this. Concrete

19:25

dust or whatever. Yeah. This

19:28

is the theory. But this made Vicki put

19:30

on her crew detective hat.

19:32

Okay. Because Vicki came

19:34

across this story while she was working on her PhD.

19:38

She's actually studying art and how dinosaurs

19:40

appear in art. So she

19:42

came across this dino smash up. Yeah. And

19:44

once she started noodling on it, like, to her,

19:47

this idea, this Tweed idea, like, things

19:49

just didn't really add

19:51

up. And while I thought this

19:54

doesn't make sense, so therefore what could happen,

19:56

it became one of

19:58

those things that... that sort of bothers

20:01

you a bit, like an itch you need to scratch.

20:06

So Wendy, Vicki scratched

20:09

that itch. So

20:11

she started looking into the theories for why

20:14

Tweed might have done this, and she wasn't

20:16

buying them, basically. Like she just didn't buy

20:18

that he was that mad about this bad

20:20

press over the museum. There's like one dinky

20:22

article on page five of the Times, and

20:25

it's like Tweed was under fire for a lot of other

20:27

stuff, you know? So she was like, it just didn't make

20:29

any sense to her. But she was

20:31

kind of like, well, if it wasn't Tweed, then

20:34

who was it? Yeah. So

20:37

Vicki's digging into all the sources she can find. I

20:40

was beginning to get some tantalizing,

20:42

just little clues. It was like

20:44

pulling in lots of different threads.

20:48

And she goes back to about the most boring document

20:50

that I can think of, which

20:52

is the meeting minutes of the

20:55

Central Park Board. So it's like every

20:57

time these, every time the people running the

20:59

park get together, someone's taking

21:01

notes. Okay. What I would

21:03

say, I was surprised how absolutely

21:05

fascinating it was reading these minutes.

21:07

I really was. I was absolutely hooked.

21:09

And all my friends looked at me like I was mad.

21:12

So she starts like going through these

21:14

minutes. The big breakthrough

21:16

for me was I

21:19

was sitting in a cafe with a cup

21:21

of coffee going through these, and there was

21:23

very much aha. Yes,

21:26

this aha moment. So Wendy, Vicki knows that

21:28

the date, she knows the date these dinosaur

21:30

models got all smashed up. Right. Right. It's

21:32

May 3rd, 1871. And

21:35

she finds this entry in the

21:37

minutes from the day before the

21:40

dinosaur smashed up. So

21:43

on May the 2nd, there's an entry

21:45

of the minutes of a meeting in

21:48

which the board decide it's

21:50

time they got rid of the

21:53

temporary work force and

21:55

that the old barn shed and structures

21:57

at that place be removed under the roof. the

22:00

direction of the treasurer. What?

22:06

So wait, what did she say? That

22:08

the, in these

22:10

boring meetings, it says that

22:12

we're going to get rid of this

22:15

crappy shed that he's been moved into

22:17

with all the structures in it. So

22:19

that's like, piracronic speak

22:22

for the beautiful dinosaur

22:24

models. Yes. And

22:26

it's all under the

22:28

direction, not of Buzz Twaid, right? But

22:31

of who, this Henry Hilton guy? Yeah.

22:34

So, I mean, and

22:36

this was like, you know, this was huge for her. I

22:38

didn't leave around the place because

22:40

I'm British, but I was pretty

22:43

pleased. There's

22:46

one more piece of evidence, by the way, in Vicki's favor. And

22:49

it is that Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins himself blamed

22:52

Hilton directly in a New York Times article in 1872. Oh,

22:56

okay. Yeah. So what's,

22:59

who is Henry Hilton? Who's Henry Hilton? So

23:02

Henry Hilton is the treasurer of this

23:04

board that is running the park. And

23:07

he has this reputation already as

23:10

somebody who's kind of a jerk, kind of

23:12

an oddball, and also who like doesn't have

23:15

a ton of respect for artifacts.

23:19

Henry Hilton is known for kind of going around

23:21

Central Park, like bossing everybody around. Like

23:24

there's this one story of him coming across

23:26

this statue made of bronze. And he's

23:28

like, you know what? Statues aren't supposed to be bronze. They're

23:30

supposed to be white, like marble or whatever. And

23:33

he tells the sculptor, like you got to paint the statue white. No,

23:37

like it's a bronze statue. And so Hilton's like,

23:39

no, he finds somebody else and gets somebody else

23:42

to paint the statue white. He's good idea. He's

23:44

a man with a plan. And

23:46

instead, every statue needs to be white. Yeah. I mean,

23:48

another weird thing that he does is they get this

23:50

collection of whale bones. And he's like, we

23:53

got to paint these white. Yeah. Right. And

23:56

he actually like gets made fun of in the New York times

23:58

for being this guy with a. with a can of

24:00

white paint, like running around painting everything white. There's

24:03

another clue here that I want to mention. Because

24:05

Henry Hilton is also a supporter of a different

24:08

museum that is in the works at this

24:10

time. It's the American

24:12

Museum of Natural History in New

24:15

York City. Very famous. Famously

24:18

does exist, Wendy. Yes. Yeah.

24:22

And right next to Central Park, and of course, that's

24:24

in the works. I mean, it's true. If you go there, I was there

24:26

the other day. Over the door, it's like,

24:29

founded in 1869. And remember, we're

24:31

talking about 1871 that's happening. This is

24:33

like the exact same time

24:35

that these two museums are potentially

24:38

in the works. Oh. So,

24:41

do you think conspiracy

24:44

like tinfoil had time? Mm-hmm.

24:47

Do you think the organizers of the American

24:49

Natural History Museum smashed those down as opposed

24:51

to... Um.

24:53

Because they were jealous. They

24:55

didn't want the competition. Well, I

24:58

do know there were a lot of powerful

25:00

people behind the American Museum of Natural History

25:02

to go full tinfoil hat.

25:06

I did actually reach out. I've reached out

25:08

to the American Museum of Natural History on

25:10

multiple occasions. We're asking about this. And

25:14

have received radio silence so far. Oh.

25:17

But a couple of things. Like, we don't have any

25:19

direct evidence that it

25:21

was competition between the

25:23

two museums that caused the dinosaur

25:25

smash-up. Okay. Vicki

25:28

is not saying that, to be clear. So, why

25:30

does she think Hilton did it? Yeah. Well,

25:32

let me tell you. Let me tell you why Vicki thinks Hilton

25:35

did it. So, as much as Hawkins, our

25:37

artist, did some important work,

25:39

he also like sometimes kind of sucked. And

25:42

there's this one story in particular that Vicki told me

25:44

that I think kind of illustrates this. He

25:47

got into some nonsense back in the UK. He

25:49

was actually a bigamist. He was

25:52

married with two families. And

25:54

there is so speculation that actually it

25:56

would be a good idea for him to get out with

25:58

the person who has been one wiper since. about

26:00

the other wife and it was

26:02

perhaps more of a practical withdrawal.

26:07

Yeah, it was decades by the way that this woman did not

26:09

know. He had a second family

26:11

anyway. It's a whole... I mean it was easier

26:13

back then, right? Yeah. And social media.

26:16

Exactly. Yeah, none of that suspicious Instagram content.

26:18

Right, right. So it's not just being sneaky

26:20

with wives. In general, Hawkins, he

26:22

could be pretty crusty. He had

26:24

fallen out with paleontologists. He was

26:26

fighting with scientists.

26:29

Kind of thought he knew more than everybody else did. Kind of thought

26:31

he was the smartest guy in the room. So

26:34

when it comes to Henry Hilton ordering the

26:36

Dino Smash-Up, like here is what Vicky thinks

26:38

happened. I actually think it was

26:40

personal. I think that we

26:43

saw Hilson was a strange character,

26:46

incredibly arrogant, thought he knew best. But

26:49

we also know now that Hawkins

26:52

himself, he could also be

26:54

incredibly arrogant. If

26:57

Hilton had tried to criticize Hawkins' work,

26:59

Hawkins was going to be having absolutely

27:01

none of it. And

27:04

so it seemed to me that that's where

27:06

the real root of this happened. And

27:08

of course we can't be witnesses to

27:11

history, but I strongly suspect that there

27:13

might well have been some quite fruity

27:15

arguments or whatever between the two that

27:18

might well have allegedly triggered this.

27:21

If you were making a film, you would have quite a good

27:24

showdown, I think. Mm-hmm.

27:27

So she just hubris smashed

27:29

the dinosaurs. Is that what she

27:31

thinks? I

27:34

mean, God creates

27:37

man, man creates dinosaurs. Man

27:40

just watches that. Man just watches dinosaurs.

27:45

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's

27:47

what she thinks. She's kind of like, you

27:49

know, we don't have, we

27:51

haven't found a ton of direct evidence of that. But she's like, look, I

27:53

know these were two jerks. I think they were on a collision course. Right.

27:57

It is funny because our obsession as humans with the universe

27:59

is so much more important. Like, why would you

28:01

do this? Why would you smash it? And

28:03

then how they like, how history had

28:06

kind of developed this theory about Boss Tweet.

28:08

Maybe he couldn't make enough like, illegal money

28:10

from it. Which seems like it was

28:12

like a total bullsh** motive.

28:14

And then with Hilton, I

28:16

kind of love that Vicky

28:19

was like, you know what the motivation was? They

28:22

were both kind of assholes and Hilton was

28:24

a bigger asshole. There's

28:27

no bigger idea here. It's just

28:30

like, assholt them. So

28:33

last year, Vicky and a colleague wrote

28:35

this paper, like laying this whole thing

28:37

out. You know, this idea that

28:39

like, Tweed wasn't involved at

28:41

all, that Hilton was the ringleader of

28:44

this whole disaster. And

28:46

while Vicky wasn't the first person to ID Hilton

28:49

as the culprit, like this paper was a big

28:51

deal for Carl. I mean, he's

28:53

been following this Dino smash up for years and

28:55

he was just like, wow, they put

28:57

in the time. They dug so

28:59

deep. They were obsessed. They

29:01

found things that a lot of people miss. It's pretty amazing.

29:08

And there's one more mystery to

29:10

the story. So there's

29:12

been actually conflicting reports of

29:14

what happened to the smashed

29:16

up bits of models. There were actually some claims

29:18

that they were dumped in the lake or

29:21

even that the Dino model chunks were

29:23

used to pave the paths of the

29:25

park, which just feels like it would

29:27

be such a dick move. Like smacking some of them, putting them as

29:29

rocks down under people's feet for us to walk on. So,

29:36

Carl, this is the last thing I did with Carl.

29:38

He's done a lot of research on this and he

29:40

thinks he knows the right spot, like the real deal

29:42

for where the pieces are, if

29:44

they exist in Central Park. And

29:47

it's this place called the Mount. Oh,

29:49

wait, so is

29:51

it this hill? It's apparently this hill. Yeah,

29:54

I think most most stories

29:56

point to this and the

29:58

building. where the

30:00

smashed dinosaur was laying. Yeah, this

30:02

is the smashed dinosaur graveyard. I

30:05

would love to see a piece of one of the models.

30:07

I would love to see that. So we're walking up this

30:09

hill. So

30:11

far rocks and grass. They

30:14

don't look, does anything look suspicious to you? No,

30:17

what, just the dinosaur head sticking out of the ground? No.

30:21

All of it is just gone. And

30:23

there's no marker here, there's nothing. There's no sign

30:25

that this was anything but a hill. But

30:28

there's a whole story here. I

30:30

know, I keep looking around at the ground. Like I'm gonna

30:32

see anything but cigarette butts. It's, I

30:35

don't know, there's probably something here. I

30:37

want there to be, I'm a dreamer,

30:39

I'm a romantic, but I'm also like

30:42

a scientist addicted to accuracy and those

30:44

two worlds rarely cross over. No,

30:47

they cross over all the time. What am I talking about?

30:50

I mean, and Carl, you know, he is hopeful

30:52

that like, maybe there is something less, Toa

30:54

the Hadrosaur, like maybe one of

30:57

the thugs took a souvenir home that day. So

31:00

there's stuff that might be out there. 100%,

31:02

it has to be there. Some, somebody's sequestered

31:04

this stuff in their basement or in some

31:07

frozen mountain out west, something.

31:10

This story is not over. If

31:13

you have a dinosaur paw

31:16

claw, something

31:18

in your basement, dinosaur crimes?

31:20

Yes. Dinosaur crimes have been

31:22

committed. Wendy, we cannot let it stand. We will

31:24

not. We will not. Someone's

31:27

going to find something cool. But

31:32

if we wait here long enough, some nerd is going to tell us

31:34

what happened here. That's all I

31:36

want. I just want to wait long enough for a nerd

31:38

to tell me what happened. That's

31:41

all we exist for. Thank

31:49

you, bud. Thank you, Wendy. That

31:51

is Science Fest's, the

31:54

great dino smash up. Of

31:56

1871. I

32:04

knew a very interesting that with my

32:06

name is er een as have is

32:08

I was an intern at St Vs

32:10

and I have been doing science rating

32:12

ever since That how many citations or

32:14

in this episode there are forty nine

32:16

citizens. In this episode forty nine people

32:18

can find them. In. A link. To.

32:21

The Transcript Which is he now so nights. Are

32:23

a what are you most excited about

32:25

when it comes to this episode I'm

32:27

excited for the audience tie that to

32:30

see pictures of? weird weird

32:32

teachers. And what they would have

32:34

looked like oh yeah which were gonna

32:36

put on instagram. With.

32:39

In Science underscore the s and also

32:41

something or a that you know that

32:43

but we need your help with as

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well as if you go onto our

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we want all of our listeners

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it'll be in the cyanide set. So let's

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say let's to hit reviews is Greta years

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ago. With

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cities throughout the path for me

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and I'm in adding inhabit Missile

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bone marrow, home remote and don't

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34:00

I'm Bobbi Lord. Music written by Bobbi

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Lord, Emma Munger, So Wylie, Jamie Hibaka

34:04

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so much to everyone that we spoke

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to for this episode, including Professor Goen

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thanks to Jack Weinstein, the Zuckerman family and

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34:51

So Wylie, Jamie

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34:58

you want me to tell you a New York anecdote? Get us in the mood.

35:01

Yeah, tell me a New York anecdote. Tell

35:03

me New York. I'm in New York. Yay! Have

35:05

you missed it? I mean, there was a human turd

35:08

on the way here. You know, I wasn't

35:10

gonna tell you until we were on the mic, but I did leave

35:12

that for you. I'll find your way to

35:14

the office. It was huge! It

35:17

was so huge! It was so huge! Save

35:19

it enough. Because

35:22

I just wanted to give you the classic

35:25

New York welcome. It

35:27

just wouldn't be right to welcome you with

35:30

anything but a streaming pile of sidewalk pieces.