0:00

this is the guardian

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the us supreme court decision

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to overturn roe v wade is

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a blow to the bodily autonomy the

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reproductive health the safety

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of women and people who can full

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pregnant

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the court overturned nearly fifty years

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of abortion precedent never before has

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the court granted and then taken away

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a widely recognized constitutional

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right in of roughly half the country

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abortion is as of now

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or soon will be illegal

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searchers of estimated that will probably see

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our maternal mortality rates increased by about

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twenty percent with this reversal

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of how many ways ninety percent

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restricting the right to end a pregnancy

1:05

has forced more conversations about

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pregnancy prevention the

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role of men in one

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of the issues right now is that there

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were only two contraceptive methods

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available for men condoms

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and vasectomies according

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to reports from doctors in the u s

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interest in the sense to me procedure

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as has spiked since the

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draft opinion on raise the wade

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was leaked in early may some

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have even called for men's bodies to

1:37

be police to with mandatory

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sets and these snow ,

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don't want to spoil anything in this episode

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but it's a terrible terrible

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idea idea so today

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insights weekly we're going to find

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out why we can to delve into

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the history of the set to nice their

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role in society today and in relation

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to women's reproductive health and

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we going to test the haqqani max

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the guardian

2:03

madeline finley and this is science

2:05

weekly

2:08

georgia granger you a researcher

2:11

of the history as the sept a nice at

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the university of strathclyde sent

2:15

to me that we aren't really aren't procedure

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that we widely discussed

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and discussed think this still qualify to do

2:23

and almost tina around

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them and how a historian

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as the sector nice is an unusual

2:30

title for sure what made

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you want to study this in the first

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place

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it was a combination of factor

2:38

is birds women's contraceptive

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choices have been so thoroughly

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studied both a lot of research into bat

2:45

whereas as far as i know i'm the only

2:47

historian if the sex means in the english speaking language

2:51

so it is kinda into thinking

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nobody's really lit to i men's

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decisions around s and mans experiences

2:58

of this and surely that

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deserves a spot

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research as women's experiences

3:03

how i wanted to start us off perhaps

3:06

you could actually to spell out what

3:09

as the sent to me is and what the procedure

3:11

looks like today

3:12

the habitat for me is a procedure

3:15

to block the passage of

3:17

sperm from getting into

3:20

a dracula it and a man so that

3:22

he will be permanently sterilized

3:24

and , way that it's done usually is

3:27

by just snipping

3:29

so little path that the

3:31

as by takes from the testes

3:33

which could the bass staffer ends up for it's

3:36

a vasectomy they

3:38

snap it and sometimes and tire

3:40

the there and so that they won't me he'll

3:42

sometimes a culture i some but

3:45

ultimately it's very small incision

3:47

a can be done without a scalpel mans am

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and it's done in about fifteen

3:53

minutes about the eye doctors office

3:55

easy it's an outpatient procedure

3:57

the can't have always been the

3:59

good how

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what did percent to me come about when would

4:03

they first develops the first

4:05

respect me as the i can find

4:08

of i'm about the eighteen eighties

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and they tried them out on animals

4:13

forests of course but the first ones on humans were

4:15

about eighteen eighty four dot

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superior that is before are

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kind of standard local anesthetics

4:23

and before antibiotics

4:26

and that kind of thing so if there were complications

4:29

it would not have been on [unk]

4:30

especially nice time

4:33

i can't imagine that they were very

4:36

popular at this point would they just seemed

4:38

used you know if you need

4:40

to till in a kind of medical situation

4:42

vs so they actually weren't

4:45

the contraception at first

4:47

start with they were used

4:49

as a potential treatment for

4:51

prostate problems they thought that

4:54

it would affect by it doesn't really affect thought

4:56

that they felt at my they saw

4:58

the time that it would have all these different

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fan but it didn't but

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eventually now that they have this

5:05

way to sterilize men predictably

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is seen becomes a weapon said eugenics

5:12

somehow worse to set to nice being

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used being this me in this way pretty

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soon after the events enough respect for me

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is within about twenty years

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people were applying and applying eugenic

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way it started in

5:25

the united states adults

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i called how he thinks sharp

5:29

start [unk]

5:29

the different amazing inmates imprisons

5:32

in indiana and at first

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it was thought that it might change their behavior

5:36

kind of like castrating like castrating for

5:38

behavioral problems they thought that it

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might make the inmates last violent

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or less actual when

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they realized that didn't they can't change

5:48

their motivation to say oh

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no we're doing it because we think that they shouldn't

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pass on their criminal

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genes as such as

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she became really widespread probably

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over thirty thousand men were protect my

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it in the us for eugenic purposes

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in the twentieth century and

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eugenic sterilization with every legalized

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in britain but the were a lot of campaigns

6:12

to bring on there was there was member's

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bill bought the parliament there was a departmental

6:16

committee on eugenic sterilization

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in britain so it got pretty

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far in terms of being considered

6:23

as a tool of the same

6:25

awesome thirty thousand

6:28

people

6:29

a lot i seen that affected some

6:31

grapes more than others absolutely

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so it disproportionately

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affected people of color so that

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either or and black people especially

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and native americans were still being

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eugenic we sterilized as well

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into the nineteen seventies we

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think about forty percent

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of native american women were sterilized

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in the nineteen seventies and ten percent

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of native american men were sterilized

6:57

in the nineteen seventies so

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it does fortunately affected non it

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americans also people

7:05

with disabilities where the pain can

7:07

of targets the at the time

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what counted as it is both he was quite different

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to what might be considered to this filthy

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now so it could be someone

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having a mental health crisis or

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there's if you cases of

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men and boys been sterilized

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for masturbation because

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that was considered a mental illness

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that is about the

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it's really shocking and it's happening

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in the nineteen seventies it feels

7:35

really recent as well i mean

7:37

all those the most recent examples

7:40

of force

7:41

that to me

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i'm no sadly not

7:44

a is still legal in

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many places including i believe

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thirty one states in the us to

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sterilize disabled people against

7:54

their consent or without their consent

7:57

there's cases in britain are disabled

7:59

people having court orders sterilizations

8:02

a well into the two thousands without

8:05

the patients consent

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since

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v wade has been overturned

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we have seen some people raising

8:24

this idea that mandatory

8:27

for sector knees are in some

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sense parallel to the control

8:32

of women's bodies but i think from everything

8:34

the he said georgia it is clear that we

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should just put this idea to

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bed entirely

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for me to chili's still

8:45

an important message of contraception

8:49

when did we begin to see the set to me

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some most people move

8:54

from something that in forced

8:56

upon them

8:57

he were contraceptive option

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so that she has started to happen

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embracing it was primarily and about

9:05

the nineteen sixties and seventies

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up , then i have been believes that the

9:10

sex me might be illegal that

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it might be counted as may mean because

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it wasn't strictly medically necessary

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necessary at that point

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you know the pill comes onto the market there's

9:22

much more contraceptive choice and

9:25

actually it was some of the earlier

9:27

you genesis who campaigned

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to bring precise to me onto the

9:32

nhs and they set

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up the first pay that for sex me clinic in britain

9:37

and nineteen sixty six i believe into

9:39

the nineteen seventies a absolutely

9:41

booms and popularity days

9:43

the figure is just increase

9:45

kind of exponentially for a while

9:48

the pill was coming under scrutiny

9:50

because there was potential health risks

9:52

that people have known about the

9:54

sex me with pitched as the safe alternative

9:57

and how effective are they now in comparison

10:00

pillow other concept sense for

10:02

effect me effectiveness figures very

10:04

quite a lot depends on which studies

10:07

you're looking at it typically

10:09

understood typically understood more than ninety nine percent

10:11

effective i which is about the same

10:14

eyes

10:14

no why

10:16

the bride contraceptive options there's

10:18

a thing that can happen where

10:21

the best friends essentially heals

10:23

itself after to decide to me

10:25

but it's widely understood widely understood a

10:27

boat the euro point

10:29

three to zero point six percent

10:31

of the sack to me that will become

10:34

allies is what it's called those kind of spontaneously

10:36

not work

10:38

the way that you describe the procedure

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and it

10:41

quite simple quite safe is this

10:44

possible to reverse once your

10:46

variety to have children

10:48

the i think not the biggest myth

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or ran debt so within

10:52

three years about seventy

10:55

six percent of reversals result

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in a pregnancy but after

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fifteen years for example dot

11:02

good banter only thirty percent of reversals

11:05

result in a pregnancy and also the reversal

11:07

procedure is quite a lot more and

11:09

ten than the original

11:11

procedure it's a can be much

11:13

more difficult to be attacked the bath

11:15

sufferance each other and

11:18

so it's more invasive

11:20

and it has like the longer healing time

11:22

and more

11:23

associate with

11:34

it's movie wade being

11:36

overturned that has put this renewed focus

11:39

on the sector nice but actually bearing

11:41

in mind that , only

11:43

a good contraceptive option for people

11:46

who are certain that they don't

11:48

want to journal any more children in the future

11:50

then know really relevant

11:53

to those having abortions because many of those

11:55

people will go on to have

11:57

a wanted pregnancy later

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so do you think the reason people

12:02

are talking about the saxony in this

12:04

context is

12:07

simpli of frustration

12:09

man

12:10

the only have two choices either their

12:12

own reproduction condoms

12:15

or the set to meet

12:17

yeah absolutely as you say

12:19

men want people to share that

12:21

responsibility and as to

12:24

how the alleviate they kind of buried

12:26

and on as then go partner

12:29

in a relationship and

12:31

theres been no developments

12:33

and mans reproductive health really

12:36

then before the twentieth

12:38

century condoms existed before

12:40

the twentieth century there are

12:43

some trials of long

12:45

acting reversible contraceptives so kind

12:47

of like the are you d but for man where

12:50

it would block that pasta friends but be able

12:52

to remove they flee

12:54

after a certain period of time bet

12:57

those are still only and trial stages

12:59

and have been and trail stages for decades

13:02

and i think that hopefully alongside

13:05

the increase in interest in fact me

13:07

which is a fantastic

13:08

the option for people who it's

13:10

appropriate for

13:11

that they will be also

13:13

i renewed push into some dean

13:16

and trailing different

13:18

male contraceptive options

13:20

it would be good to see some

13:22

other options the man like

13:25

semi permanent methods

13:27

eve described or gels or pills come

13:30

, market but i

13:32

wonder the sec to me have been

13:34

around for such

13:37

a long time and yet the is still

13:39

this stigma around them seen

13:41

a even the word

13:42

to me can make some men

13:44

when

13:45

we surprised to see it being

13:47

discussed so much online and see

13:49

think that the perception of

13:51

them is changing

13:53

i think there has been as shift in

13:55

their perception of the sexy me is

13:58

probably over the last you know few

14:00

decades by especially

14:02

recently with the

14:04

growth and and

14:06

of widespread feminism why right

14:08

call for women's rights and recognition

14:11

of women's health and

14:14

therefore the a be more

14:16

appropriate or see mean more

14:18

appropriate i think it's always been appropriate for

14:21

man to be discussing their contraceptives

14:24

choices one of the things i've found

14:26

in my research i interviewed quite a lot

14:29

of man who got the saxony before nineteen

14:31

ninety so older man and

14:33

a lot of them express that they didn't talk about

14:35

it to their friends and to their peers

14:37

and they didn't feel like it with the kinda thing kinda

14:39

discussed and the pub or whatever man

14:42

should be talking to their friends about

14:45

more choices

14:46

they're making even just for

14:48

their own wellbeing as good to talk about

14:50

things like women talk about our contraceptive

14:53

experiences each other quite often the

14:55

i think that is i really positive

14:57

chef

15:01

you to thank he has been really fascinating

15:03

thank you so much for inviting me thanks

15:07

again to do to grange we've

15:09

put a link to our coverage of the roe

15:11

v wade decision on the podcast

15:13

web page of the guardian dot com

15:16

now if you a sports fan

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this is the the guardian