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Bank of America and a member FDIC. Hey,

0:31

what's going on, y'all? Welcome to Deep Cuts,

0:33

the bonus episode of the Scott Sigler Slices

0:35

Fiction Podcast. We're a sci-fi author and an

0:37

audiobook narrator to discuss all the hot topics

0:39

you can't find in a mall. I'm

0:42

Scott Sigler, New York Times bestselling author known

0:44

far and wide as the future

0:46

dark overlord. And I'm A.B. Sigler,

0:48

audiobook narrator. And on this Deep

0:50

Cuts, we are talking about how

0:52

writers and audiobook

0:55

narrators and other

0:57

staff interact with

0:59

each other. Do they talk at all? Are

1:02

they joined at the hip? We'll discuss all of

1:04

that coming. And

1:06

let's see. A reminder, these are bonus episodes, not

1:08

part of the current story that is running in

1:10

the Scott Sigler Slices feed. Listen, if you like,

1:12

but there's nothing in here you need to keep

1:14

track of. So if the sound of my voice

1:16

annoys you, you can just turn this shit off.

1:19

All right, let's dive in. All right. So I do

1:22

have a handful of questions moving into this, but

1:24

first, cheers, dear. Cheers. It's

1:26

Wednesday night. It's Wednesday night.

1:28

And those of you listening home, we also

1:30

just published an audiobook called Slay. So

1:32

we are going to be talking about that experience

1:35

and many other experiences in the world of writing

1:37

books, audiobooks and interacting with audiobook narrators. Yep. And

1:39

while he drinks champagne, I'm going to talk about a

1:41

couple of things. There are a handful of good questions

1:43

in the chat room. There's also a handful of groundwork

1:46

you need to know because some readers only

1:49

read if they can do it with their eyes. Some

1:51

readers only read if they can do it with

1:54

their ears. And some are a

1:56

hybrid. They'll only read print books, but

1:58

they'll listen to audiobooks. or they read

2:00

e-books and audio books, but they won't read

2:02

print books. There's a whole variety. And the

2:04

first thing I'll say, according to

2:07

every author I know and every narrator

2:09

I know, if you are

2:11

consuming the story, you are reading

2:13

that book. It doesn't matter anymore. I knew there used

2:15

to be a reason we had to do one or

2:17

the other, but now we don't have to do that.

2:20

So that said, we're going to talk

2:22

about the relationship between an author and

2:24

his story and a

2:27

narrator and the author and the narrator

2:30

and the performance they have to do,

2:32

because those are all things that contribute

2:34

to the experience that somebody has when

2:36

they listen to an audio book. Okay.

2:38

So to that end, I want to

2:41

say I have worked with you a

2:43

handful of times where

2:45

I am the person listening to you

2:47

record a book. You

2:50

have helped me record alone. Correct. I

2:54

have had other people direct and produce me.

2:56

You have had other people direct and produce

2:58

you. And then you have worked with other

3:00

professional actors. So we're going to talk about

3:03

all of that because all of that influences

3:05

the thing. The first thing I'll say is

3:07

as a narrator and

3:09

an author, which you are both of those things,

3:13

how do you feel about somebody

3:15

other than you telling

3:17

your story? Someone other

3:19

than me telling the story is always interesting

3:21

because when I

3:24

write the story, I know exactly how it is supposed

3:26

to sound in my head. When

3:28

I read the story that

3:30

is close to exactly as it's supposed

3:32

to sound in my head. When you

3:34

turn it over to another narrator, they

3:37

are doing an interpretation of the story based

3:39

on what they see on the page, sometimes

3:41

with input from the author, sometimes not depends

3:43

on the narrator, depends on the production company

3:46

and the publisher. But especially

3:49

when people who have professional acting

3:51

experience and I count people

3:53

who've done 10, 20, 30 audio books,

3:56

they are professional actors. own

4:00

interpretation primarily to the

4:02

dialogue. So they will address

4:05

each character in the way

4:07

that the actor thinks is best.

4:10

And oftentimes that is drastically different than

4:12

the way I thought of the character.

4:15

Even if the narrator and I are working

4:17

off the same, let's say two paragraphs to

4:19

describe a, to describe

4:21

worm from say Mount Fitzroy.

4:24

The way I would have read it is very different from

4:26

the way Ray Porter read it. So

4:29

you have to, you give up that bit of

4:31

control as an author and you turn it over

4:33

to a professional and let them do their thing.

4:36

And how does that happen for you? Is that easy or do

4:38

you have to kind of like get on

4:40

your author face and decide, Oh, that's not how

4:42

I would have read it. And then get on

4:44

your narrator face and say, Oh, I'm not doing

4:46

this. I'm not spending the time

4:48

doing this. I'm not having to pay for this.

4:50

Somebody else, okay, I'm fine with that. Or is

4:52

it more natural than that? It started out being

4:55

very unnatural. Our first professional audio

4:57

book narrator that did one of her

4:59

books was a deep voice gentleman named

5:01

Phil Giganti. And Phil

5:03

Giganti did Nocturnal and

5:05

Phil was very open

5:08

to the author being involved, but

5:10

yours truly was far too involved.

5:12

I was critiquing literally the way

5:15

he would do narration. So

5:17

like Brian jumped over the

5:20

fence. Where are you going, Bri Bri? Pookie

5:22

said, and I was like, you got to

5:24

tighten that up, son. You got to tighten up the narration.

5:26

So this guy has recorded hundreds of audio books, but I

5:28

knew how I wanted mine to sound and I

5:31

was micromanaging and he did his

5:33

darn best to incorporate my feedback,

5:36

but I was way too micromanaging with it because this is my

5:38

first experience with it and I wanted it to be as

5:40

good as good can be. And now

5:42

when I turn things over, now we have

5:44

Ray Porter, for example, do

5:46

an audio book. I don't hear a word from his ass.

5:48

Like I give him what notes I can in the beginning

5:50

and we get a finished audio book back and that's that.

5:52

And I totally trust the process. So I want

5:54

to jump back a minute because you talked

5:57

about an author releasing his narration to somebody

5:59

else. Now I want to talk about

6:01

it as you as a narrator as well. Because

6:04

you have had the experience. We know, I know you

6:06

guys might not know this, but the

6:09

experience with aliens failings was

6:11

very joyful for Scott. And that was relatively recently. I

6:13

think that was 2021 or two, I'm not sure, somewhere

6:17

in there. And there

6:19

was no option. There was zero option

6:21

that when we signed that contract,

6:24

Scott could record the audio book. It wasn't

6:26

on the table. He was the second right

6:28

of refusal, which meant they were gonna hire

6:30

the person they wanted. If they couldn't, they

6:32

had to ask Scott. But of

6:34

course they hired the person they wanted, which was Bronson

6:36

Pinchot. That said, I want to ask you this because

6:39

I know I watched you go

6:41

through that and that was joyful for you. It

6:44

was great, mm-hmm. So

6:46

when you're coming at it as

6:48

a narrator, Okay. Does

6:51

it feel any different? Were you able to

6:53

see that Bronson Pinchot was very into the

6:55

story and asking character questions and looking at

6:57

the depth of these characters and all that

7:00

stuff. And did that give you a little

7:02

bit of forgiveness or were you just still

7:04

able to let it go? I think I

7:06

understand now. You're saying because I have audio

7:08

book narrating experience, did that help

7:10

me interact with Bronson Pinchot doing it?

7:13

Yeah, absolutely it did. And

7:16

that was, it was great. And

7:18

the Phil Gigante experience, while fairly torturous

7:20

for Phil, also informed that

7:22

quite a bit. Once I heard the final product, I'm

7:24

like, I gotta back off these guys. They know what

7:26

the hell they're doing. And then having

7:28

done my own stories, knowing what

7:30

it's like to be on the mic, making character

7:33

decisions often on the fly. There's only

7:35

so much prep work you can do

7:38

and you can't memorize an entire novel. So there are

7:40

gonna be things that surprise you and you have to

7:42

kind of do it on the fly. That

7:45

doing all six GFL books, which I

7:47

narrated and ancestor and infected

7:49

and contagious, coming up on 10 audio

7:51

books I've recorded now. Being

7:54

on the mic and doing that, yes, gives

7:56

me an enormous amount of understanding and flexibility

7:58

when I'm dealing with that. with a narrator

8:00

and I really think it informs the way

8:03

I answer their questions. I do too, 100% that's

8:05

why I asked. I'll also

8:07

say that it seems to me

8:09

as an audiobook narrator and then

8:11

kind of producer, director,

8:14

publisher, whatever, that there's

8:17

a certain amount of

8:19

joy in the surprise of what another creative

8:25

comes. It's a stressful topic. It

8:27

is but there's sometimes joy. When

8:29

somebody comes up with something that

8:31

surprises you, it's endless. It's so

8:33

affirming that you're like, no, I

8:36

exactly thought Eramovsky would sound like

8:38

this. And

8:40

then the narrator comes back with what about this?

8:42

And you're like, nope, that is it. That is

8:44

it. It's a weirdly wonderful unlocking

8:47

the fiction moment. I don't know how

8:49

else to say that. It's fucking

8:52

fantastic. Bronson Pinchot's

8:54

performance and interpretation of Aliens'

8:56

Phalanx was completely

8:59

different from the way I would have done it. From

9:02

soup to nuts, I would have done it. Every

9:04

character would have done different. Everything I would

9:06

have done different. But that is

9:08

a super pro who's been on

9:10

the acting circuit for a very

9:13

long time and really

9:15

knows his shit. And yes, it

9:17

was an absolute puzzle

9:19

box delight to listen

9:21

to every word of that and be like, fuck,

9:23

this is awesome. Like it's not what

9:25

I would have done, which is why it was a

9:28

delight. I know every single word that's coming in or

9:30

everything that's going to happen, but the way

9:32

he performs it and the choices he makes

9:34

make it a different story. And I'm not,

9:36

unless Scott says it's okay, I'm not going

9:39

to share with you the characters that I'm

9:41

talking about right here. But I will say

9:44

that Scott's favored

9:46

characters or favorite characters

9:49

in Phalanx were different

9:51

than Bronson Pinchot's. And

9:54

Bronson Pinchot brought a humanity to

9:57

his favorites that I think

10:00

that Scott would have done,

10:02

could have done, had he

10:04

needed to, but didn't inherently

10:06

need to coming into that. And

10:08

I want to say that to say this, the

10:11

first experience I had recording an audiobook is

10:13

because I was at a convention because

10:15

of Scott's books and I was at Emerald City

10:18

Comic Con doing our empty set thing. And I

10:20

had an author come up to me and say,

10:22

you sound just like my main character. Who are

10:24

you? What is all of this? I need you.

10:28

What's going on? You sound exactly like

10:30

my main character. Friends,

10:34

I am nothing like her main character.

10:36

Well, that was Casey Alexander. That was

10:38

Casey Alexander and it was Necrotech. And

10:41

so Necrotech now is a

10:43

Jonathan Mayberry. They're different. I know, but I can't

10:46

remember the other one. And Necrotech and Cyber. He'll

10:48

look it up while I talk about it. But

10:50

that's actually what happened. Somebody came up to me

10:52

at a convention and said, I heard you talking.

10:55

It was quite literally one of

10:57

the worst days of my life. And she heard

10:59

me talking and couldn't help but

11:01

come up. Nanoshock and Necrotech. Those are the

11:03

ones. Nanoshock and Necrotech. Correct. And

11:05

came up to me and said, you sound exactly like

11:07

my main character. Would you be willing

11:10

to audition for this part? And

11:12

I was like, oh, I'm already a narrator, whatever, whatever,

11:14

whatever, because I did radio commercials when I was in

11:16

college. And then we got

11:18

a request literally at scottsegler.com contact us, which

11:21

was like, yeah, I need you to do

11:23

this because you sound exactly like my main

11:25

character. Penguin Random House reached out to us, right? Yeah, they

11:27

did. Yeah. And I absolutely

11:31

am nothing like her main character. Her

11:33

main character is fantastic in a thousand

11:35

ways, but I am so

11:38

much more prim. We're

11:40

like negatives to each other.

11:42

Her main character and me, or

11:44

Rico, and we're so wildly different.

11:46

Although I sounded just like her.

11:49

Rico would fit in nicely in the

11:51

slate universe because every other word out

11:53

of her mouth is a curse word.

11:55

Every other word out of your mouth is

11:58

usually not a curse word. You're like every. 400th

12:00

word, right? Well, I mean, I curse a lot,

12:02

but I blush a lot too. And we

12:05

got never blushed. No, we got never

12:07

blushed. Regardless, OK, so this is

12:09

a thing. Like, I the author thought

12:11

I sounded just like her main character.

12:13

And that worked out. I recorded both of those books

12:16

in that duology. They're still the ones

12:18

like it worked. It

12:20

had nothing to do with my sensibilities as a human

12:23

being. I had to learn to say all those naughty

12:25

words in a row. Likewise,

12:27

you had as

12:30

you came off doing everything yourself,

12:32

all the recording, all the whatever,

12:34

all the narration, all the writing,

12:37

you had to sort of see the differences

12:39

and the willingness to

12:41

let somebody else interpret a character. Yeah,

12:44

and that that took some getting used to. Now

12:47

I'm fairly used to it because now with

12:49

what we do, we're so busy all the time

12:52

and writing so many stories. Now, if somebody else

12:54

narrates the story, that frees me up to go

12:56

out, create new stories, create new IP. But

12:58

I want to actually ask you about this, because

13:00

when you've got to do nanoshock,

13:03

you are an actually trained

13:05

actor. Is New York Conservatory is

13:08

that right? No, the Academy of

13:10

Dramatic Arts. And you did a couple of years

13:12

of the Academy of Dramatic Arts. So as

13:15

a trained actor. Coming

13:17

into this with some voice work experience, but you

13:20

had not done an audio book yet. So

13:22

if you can recall what that brand new

13:24

experience was like, you get recruited by Penguin

13:27

fucking Random House to do an audio book

13:29

for a person that you've met and a person you dig in a story

13:31

that you dig. What

13:33

is the process like for

13:35

you? You know what? Actually, we should take a

13:37

commercial break. You come back to that process. I can probably

13:39

answer this in the meantime. I will say it was

13:42

really interesting to me because as

13:44

a person who trained at Webster's

13:46

Academy of Acting and the

13:49

American Academy of Dramatic Art, I

13:52

used more of what we call our

13:54

instrument. I used my facial expressions. I

13:56

use my voice. I use my mannerisms.

13:59

And all. All of that had to go away.

14:01

I just did it. When I said my mannerisms,

14:03

I hit this thing, which now you guys can

14:06

hear. I hit my cable that goes

14:08

to my headphones. I had to do all of that

14:10

like 85 times in the first two days of recording

14:12

the other. Yeah, I did that so wrong. You

14:14

had to learn how to use the equipment and how to

14:16

operate physically in the booth. Yeah, and the

14:18

equipment is my human body because as an actor,

14:20

I could move around and I can move my

14:23

hands. And if you were watching on video and

14:25

not listening, you would see me moving my hands

14:27

here. And here regardless of

14:29

is me hitting my microphone and my headphones and

14:31

stuff like that. And I had to redo that.

14:33

You literally had to learn to basically sit

14:35

on your hands and do all the emotion

14:37

through your

14:40

voice. And as a New Yorker, that must have been terrible for

14:42

you. Terrible for me. And now

14:44

we are at our 15 minute break. So I

14:46

think we should walk out here and come back

14:48

in in a minute. And then I'll tell

14:51

you how hard that was. Great. As

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16:24

And we're back. If

16:26

you guys are listening to this live

16:28

and have any idea for something you'd

16:31

like us to cover, please email info

16:33

at emptyset.com or put it in the

16:35

chat room right now. Any ideas that

16:37

you want this back and forth, this

16:39

casual conversation between an audiobook narrator and

16:42

an author to talk about

16:44

or any topics for your favorite author, put those

16:46

in the chat room right now and

16:48

we might get to that in a future Deep Cuts.

16:51

And if you are hearing this in the podcast

16:53

feed, we live stream every Wednesday, 6 p.m. Pacific,

16:55

9 p.m. Eastern, fans in the chat

16:57

room who watch us live get to ask questions. It

16:59

could be you. We live

17:02

stream at twitch.com/Scott Sigler,

17:05

facebook.com/Scott Sigler

17:08

and oh, sorry, twitch TVs slash

17:11

Scott Sigler and youtube.com/Scott

17:13

Sigler. Yep. What

17:15

we were, what we did before the commercial break was we were talking about

17:18

you as a highly trained

17:20

actor, right? Learning

17:22

in and doing your first audiobook and learning you

17:25

can't use, you can't use your physical expressiveness as

17:27

much as you would like to describe

17:29

that process. We've talked about how an author

17:31

has to interact with an audiobook narrator and

17:33

the audiobook narrator gets to take some control

17:36

over the property and interpret the way that

17:38

they want to along with the director and

17:40

whatever the publisher wants. But

17:42

you come in the booth for the first time and describe

17:44

that process. I mean, it feels like it has to

17:47

be very own, it's to be a burden

17:49

of responsibility. Like I got to get this right for the author,

17:51

but you're also a trained actor. How do you do that? So

17:54

I'm going to start and back up a second by

17:56

saying when I was in college, I paid for quite

17:58

a lot of my college by doing radio. commercials

18:00

in the Midwest in the United States. I

18:02

did many, many, many, many, many. I was

18:04

part of SAG-AFTRA. It was great. It paid

18:07

for my whole college. And that was a

18:09

wildly different thing because that was a commercial.

18:11

That was 30 to 90 seconds of me

18:13

doing exactly what they paid me to do.

18:17

And so that was my entire history plus

18:19

my acting degrees. And then 25, 30 years

18:21

later, I came to this thinking, oh,

18:25

I know how to, I know, oh, that's, and

18:27

then it was, okay, you can't back and

18:29

forth nod your hand. You have to stay

18:31

right down the barrel of the microphone. You

18:33

can't justiculate. I just did it again. If

18:36

you've just heard it, I can't justiculate with

18:38

my hands. My lifelong friend,

18:40

Pam, has seen me talk with my hands my whole

18:42

life and just in the Facebook chat room right now.

18:44

She was like, wait a minute. You can't talk with your

18:46

hands as a New Yorker, but you can't. You

18:49

have to do what I'm doing now, which is, I

18:51

am holding my hands in fists, not because

18:54

I wanna fight anybody, but just because I

18:56

don't wanna justiculate with anything. And I wanna

18:58

say where I'm right in the sweet zone

19:00

for the microphone right here. And

19:03

I'm doing that emotion. And all of the

19:05

movement I would do and all of the

19:07

justiculating I would do and all of the

19:09

back and forth I would do has to

19:11

all come through my voice. And if I

19:14

wanna get louder, I have to back away

19:16

from the microphone and not screw anything up

19:18

because they don't wanna make it double work

19:20

for anybody, that kind of thing. How does

19:22

that impact your performance initially? Like say chapters

19:24

one through five, how does it impact things?

19:26

I mean, initially it was terrible. I'm

19:28

not gonna lie. What we actually did

19:31

for Necrotik, which was the first book

19:33

I professionally recorded at recorded books, I

19:35

went and we recorded the

19:37

first three, well, we

19:39

recorded right from the beginning of the story. And

19:43

my director and my producer, who

19:46

is fantastic, he

19:49

said, okay, cool. You're definitely not

19:53

in the character. Let's just move

19:55

on, you'll find it. And when we record those few

19:57

and we recorded the

19:59

first three, three chapters again once

20:01

I found the character, because I

20:03

had to let go of my

20:05

physicality because if you're listening in

20:07

your headphones or your earbuds, all

20:09

you hear is my voice. So

20:12

I couldn't do it. I can't

20:14

even do it now. I keep moving my hands and

20:16

stuff, even though I know this is

20:18

gonna be a podcast that people can't see, I have

20:20

to do it, but I had to be able to

20:23

lean into the character and find it and

20:27

then come back and do that again at

20:29

the beginning so that the rest, once I

20:31

found it, it would sound the same. I

20:33

re-recorded the first three chapters

20:35

so that it would sound

20:37

the same the whole time. And that actually worked

20:39

because the main character of

20:43

Necrotech by K.C. Alexander is wildly different as a

20:45

human being than I am, but we sound the

20:47

same. It's a great, it's a super fun book.

20:49

It's really fun and it's a really naughty and

20:52

it's really fun and I loved it. If you

20:54

guys, Liz, if you are fans of Scott Sigler,

20:56

that's probably why you're listening to this podcast, fans

20:58

of the shit I write, you will like K.C.

21:00

Alexander's sinless story,

21:03

S-I-N-L-E-S-S, she got book one, book two. I don't think

21:05

she got a book three out of it, but

21:07

anyways. But she's got a couple of other stuff too

21:09

that I think is really super fun. If you like

21:11

Scott Sigler, you might like her style a lot and

21:14

that was how I did that, but I think that

21:16

is the biggest difference. An

21:19

audiobook narrator is essentially a voice actor

21:21

and I know that sounds weird because

21:23

that's a thing for video and

21:27

games and all sorts of

21:29

stuff, but for an audiobook,

21:31

quite literally everything you're going

21:33

to commute has to come

21:35

through the one moment

21:37

you talk about it. And

21:41

it was definitely a learning curve. I'm better than I

21:43

used to be, I think. It's,

21:45

yeah, such a drastic shift. So we've covered what

21:48

it's like for an author to try and, a

21:50

new author to try and interact with a professional

21:52

actor coming into the audiobook. We've talked what it

21:55

was like for a seasoned author who's

21:57

done the best seller thing, who's put a lot

21:59

of books out. to finally turn over control of

22:02

that to someone else, which is frankly what most

22:04

authors, most authors are

22:07

overwhelmed from square one. And if they get a chance to turn

22:09

over to a pro audio book and they're like, just do your

22:11

thing. Yeah. So we've covered that. We've

22:13

covered what it's like to be a trained

22:15

actor coming into an audio book for

22:17

the first time, which is stuff you

22:20

have done. So let's talk a little

22:22

bit about directing

22:24

an audio book, because now you've

22:26

got one person who's

22:30

meticulously crafted a story

22:32

word by word, line by line, paragraph

22:34

by paragraph, transition by transition, making

22:37

sure everything lines up and carries you

22:39

on an emotional voyage that

22:42

gets you to a destination where you were

22:44

thrilled and upset and satisfied and relieved and

22:46

all those other things. So someone who's put

22:48

literally years into writing this, let's call it

22:50

a script, but years in writing script. Then

22:53

you turn that over to someone

22:55

who's highly trained in presenting

22:58

the human emotions, presenting the gamut of human

23:00

emotions. A trained actor, this is something

23:02

that the average person can't do. You have to

23:04

have talent, then you train, you have to work

23:07

at it. So now you've got these two people

23:10

who are good at what they do, and

23:12

their job is to elicit emotions

23:15

from the viewer, the listener, the

23:17

reader, and then you come in

23:19

as a director, how do you manage that

23:21

process? You have more directing experience than I

23:23

do. Yeah, in stage plays and also narration,

23:25

I think both. Oh yeah, totally. So

23:27

I will say this, I feel

23:29

like that is a negotiation and it

23:31

feels like this. Then

23:34

the producer, director, and narrator,

23:36

and author of an audio

23:38

book have only the audio

23:41

plane to provide all

23:43

of that information to you. That

23:46

said, I think the

23:48

job of an audio book narrator

23:51

is to work with the author to

23:53

say, cool, what you're doing is

23:57

giving them 10 pages to

23:59

communicate the audio. this emotion, but

24:02

I need them to communicate it

24:04

and move quickly. And

24:08

I think we need to amp up this,

24:10

amp up that, amp up this. And that's

24:12

a director's job is to say, yeah, when

24:16

like in tonight's episode,

24:18

I won't do any

24:20

spoilers, but in tonight's episode,

24:22

there was an argument between two of

24:24

our main characters, I'll

24:26

say the junior main characters. So I don't

24:29

want to absolutely ruin

24:31

anything, but the junior character here had

24:34

absolutely the right of way. He was doing

24:36

the right thing. He was trying to do

24:38

the best thing for the family that he

24:40

lives in. And our main main character was

24:43

mad about that because he wanted to continue

24:45

on his self-destructive ways a little bit. And

24:49

they had to stand their ground and be mean to

24:51

each other and be graceful and good to each other.

24:53

And I think that a director has to be like,

24:55

nope, I need you to be angry or there. And

24:58

I need you to be angry there. And then Lincoln,

25:00

I need you to be angry at first and then

25:03

angry at yourself and come back in. Now, I

25:05

gotta ask you this. So you've directed me several

25:07

times. We just did Slay and Slay was an

25:09

interesting re-recording process.

25:13

I deliver a line. I think I've

25:16

nailed it. I've got it. You see

25:18

the big picture as a director. How do

25:20

you come in and say, all right, I need you to do

25:22

that again this way. I need more

25:24

of this or less of this. How do you

25:26

do that? I will say I do the same

25:28

thing that I was directed every single time I

25:30

was directed in my acting career. The

25:33

best directors do

25:35

this. Okay, I understand that's where you were coming

25:38

from. I understand that's how you feel about it.

25:40

What if, oh, instead

25:43

of Lincoln being righteous and angry, he's

25:46

a tiny bit embarrassed and still

25:48

the fuck angry. Like you give

25:50

them a stage note,

25:52

I'll call it, that says, no, I

25:54

get you. You did this perfect thing.

25:56

You said, hey, you're

25:59

angry, obviously. you wrote this character, this

26:01

character's angry all the time. What

26:03

if he was a little bit embarrassed and angry? What

26:05

if he had his pants down and angry?

26:08

What if he had just peed himself

26:10

a little bit and angry? Like something that

26:12

introduces another emotion that you, the actor,

26:14

can kind of put in your noggin and

26:16

try it again. And we do both. As

26:18

an audiobook director, you do both. Take

26:21

it your way, take it my way. And

26:23

as someone who's been on the receiving end of

26:26

your direction, it's really kind of

26:28

a fascinating, magical thing. You're just, you

26:30

know, when you are reading literally 120,000 words, dozens, if

26:33

not multiple dozens of

26:38

characters, and you have to keep track of

26:40

all that in your head, there's a lot of

26:42

business going on in your noggin. And

26:45

the director's job, which A

26:47

has done marvelously, is to be

26:49

like, okay, I know you're tracking a lot.

26:51

I think you're missing this right here, and

26:53

you're missing this context, or this bridge, or

26:56

this consistency. You haven't done the character like

26:58

that, and right here they'd be doing another

27:00

thing. And the other side of

27:02

that coin is this. I

27:05

heard that different when I read the

27:07

script. I heard that differently when I

27:09

read the script. You read it quite

27:11

angry and visceral. I read

27:13

that as vulnerable. Why don't we listen, why

27:15

don't we have both takes? Why don't we

27:17

do both? Yeah, we need a judge. No,

27:19

you're wrong. It's more cool. I

27:22

totally heard that differently. Let me see. What

27:24

you can't really do in a stage play,

27:26

but you could do in a movie. I

27:29

think they do many, many, many takes in a movie or TV

27:31

show. You see no takes in movies, and they try. Let me

27:33

try it again. Let me try it again. All right, couple of

27:35

questions. Coming from the chat room,

27:37

again, if you're listening to this on

27:39

the podcast, we do this live every

27:42

Wednesday, 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern,

27:44

youtube.com/Scott Sigler, facebook.com/Scott Sigler, twitch.tv slash Scott

27:46

Sigler. Join us. Kay Hurley, 424

27:48

asks, one thing I've

27:50

noticed in my current read through of Earthcore that

27:53

not many other audio books I've read

27:55

has, there's a tone between chapters to

27:57

signify the transition. Was that

27:59

something you- an author had insight on or

28:02

is it the studio's discretion? As a

28:04

listener I like the definitive separation it provides.

28:06

I'll answer this because it's a short answer.

28:08

I don't know anyone else who does that.

28:11

If it's one of my books

28:13

I want an actual tone the

28:15

reader understands to separate a chapter

28:18

break, a point of view shift, etc.

28:20

Because when you are reading in text

28:23

on a kindle or in print you

28:25

see a double space or you see a new

28:28

chapter. I got frustrated with audiobooks where

28:30

I'm like wait a minute what is it who's

28:32

talking now? Who's this guy? Because they just

28:34

jumble it all together and the producers

28:37

actually trim down the pauses

28:39

to barely a heartbeat and you don't know what's

28:41

going on. So that is a I believe that

28:43

is largely as far as I know largely

28:46

a Scott Sigler directed thing. We

28:48

want a sounder between point

28:51

of view shifts and chapter breaks. Likewise

28:53

and I will also say part of

28:55

reason for that in Scott Sigler audiobooks

28:57

is because Scott became a

28:59

published author because of his

29:01

podcast and that was the

29:03

decision he made in his

29:05

podcast and he wanted the

29:08

people who were rolling with him

29:10

into actually buying books to feel at

29:13

home and to feel like this

29:15

was the same thing. It's also a

29:17

great idea. I do listen

29:19

to a ton of audiobooks and I haven't heard

29:21

a lot of that. I do want to move

29:24

on and say Pam Weber in the YouTube chat

29:26

room asked does the actor slash

29:28

narrator typically read cold or have they already

29:30

done a whole read through? And I want

29:32

to answer this because I had the opportunity

29:35

to go to recorded books in Burbank to

29:37

record those two books for Casey Alexander and

29:40

I showed up on my first

29:42

day and I walked into the break

29:44

room to make my tea and get

29:46

my pineapple juice and Ray Porter my

29:48

good friend who records all of Scott's

29:50

books was there recording somebody else's book. And

29:52

this ties into a question for Sean Dyer in

29:54

the chat room. He says what's the process look

29:56

like for audio narrators to trade with each other

29:58

over the lessons they've learned? Is

30:00

it all just individual effort with input from

30:02

the directors and your experience is not that

30:05

so no It's not that and I think it informed

30:07

us both. I think we both saw this happen. So

30:09

what happened is that first day? I walked in Ray

30:12

Porter didn't know me as anything but Scott

30:15

Sigler's a business partner That's it But

30:17

we had met at readings and at

30:19

Comic Con and it's stuff like that

30:21

And I was literally making tea and

30:23

pouring myself pineapple juice in the break

30:25

room and he came in and like

30:28

absolutely stopped his tracks and he's a

30:32

He's a formidable Presence

30:34

in a room like he's got Audible's 2015

30:36

narrator of the year. He is right

30:38

so he walked into the room and he went and He

30:42

tapped both hands on his chest which made a

30:44

vibrating noise So everybody in the room looked

30:46

up and he was like hey

30:51

Why are you here? Because he wasn't recording

30:53

a Scott Sigler book and he didn't know

30:55

that I was a narrator and or actor

30:57

of any elk and I was Like oh

31:00

because I said like just like this big character

31:02

apparently and I got hired to do this book

31:04

and he was like, okay Do you need anything

31:06

and he's like I somebody else told me to make tea

31:09

hot tea and also room temperature pineapple juice And

31:11

he was like yep Take see this big stack

31:13

of water take two of those waters into the

31:15

room with you and then meet me

31:17

for lunch at 1130 Tell your director you need to meet 1130

31:20

All right, and that entire week he stayed

31:22

with me every single break I

31:24

mean every single lunchtime I'll say and

31:26

you can give us like the top three things

31:28

you pick up from him I will so every day

31:30

for a week and and so he the first thing

31:33

he said was he skims

31:36

the book Like he

31:38

reads the first page or two or

31:41

three of every chapter to kind of

31:43

get the idea of the path of

31:45

the story But

31:47

he does not read the entire book all the

31:49

way through and Then

31:52

he told me I should not do that because

31:54

I need to know where the story is going

31:56

because this was my first book He's been a

31:58

while doing this. So now he he kind of

32:00

knows like these things are amping

32:02

up and these things are gonna change, but

32:05

don't do that right away. And that was

32:07

very helpful because I had read the whole book

32:09

and I had made a billion notes and I

32:11

asked him about the notes and he was like,

32:13

yeah, don't bring those notes into the room. Interesting.

32:15

Don't bring those notes into the room. You read

32:17

the book, made notes, and he's like, don't bring

32:20

those notes in, how come? Because I had

32:22

made a decision about all of those

32:25

as a reader, not a narrator.

32:31

And communicating to myself,

32:33

what I wanted to learn from that

32:35

book was different than communicating with literally

32:37

anyone else who would listen to it.

32:40

And he said, people deserve to be

32:42

surprised. And you deserve to

32:44

be surprised by what you're reading. I

32:47

still am at the stage. I've only got a

32:49

handful of books. I still have to read the

32:51

whole story. I still need to know where it's

32:53

going, but I see what he's saying because I'm

32:56

recording a handful of books with Steve, or short

32:58

stories, I mean, with Steve for Death is Black.

33:00

Steve Rickeyburg. Yeah, and I'm now just kind of

33:02

skimming through the points I need to hit and

33:05

trying to live and emote in the moment when

33:07

I'm reading. And I think that that

33:09

helps. The second thing he said is, there's

33:12

nothing that will help a narrator more

33:14

than being well-hydrated. Don't drink alcohol, drink

33:16

lots of water, drink lots of electrolytes.

33:19

You know what I've read? It's

33:22

after every page, take

33:24

a sip of water, chapstick. Now,

33:27

I don't know that everybody does this, but people read a page,

33:30

pause, because the tape's running, the tape's digital,

33:32

so it doesn't matter. As long as you

33:34

find a break point, because Lipsmax take a

33:36

lot of work for the

33:39

editors to take out. So if you can mitigate

33:41

those, that's good. And also you

33:43

hear those as a narrator and it throws you off. I

33:45

think we're sort of running short on time. But

33:47

you asked me for three things. And the third thing is

33:49

very important. The third thing he said was, you

33:52

have a different metronome

33:54

when you're reading, you're

34:00

narrating. And that's true for every

34:02

human being on earth. When you have to talk to other

34:05

people and explain to them, oh, first we're going to go

34:07

to Starbucks, then we're going to go to the movies, then

34:09

we're going to do this. It's different than when you're just

34:12

consuming that information for yourself. And the

34:14

second he said it, I went

34:17

back into the recording studio and I realized when

34:19

I'm reading for myself, I kind of go up

34:21

in cadence and down in cadence and this is

34:23

still good and it's not yet the peak and

34:25

this is still great and it's not yet the,

34:27

oh, here comes the peak. And that's what I

34:29

was reading, even though that wasn't what was happening

34:31

in the story because I as a

34:34

reader was trying to anticipate what was

34:36

happening in the story. And

34:38

as a narrator sharing it with you guys, the

34:40

first time you hear it is from me. I

34:42

can't do any of that. I can't add

34:45

my decision that this is now

34:47

the ramp up to the

34:49

climax. I have to just read the story

34:52

and let that happen to me. And

34:54

it took me to the second book to

34:57

quite understand that, but it made a huge difference.

34:59

And I don't have access to

35:01

those early tapes, but goodness, the

35:03

times my director were like,

35:05

oh, you're doing the sing song thing again.

35:07

That's what he called it. The sing song

35:09

thing again. You are waiting for the story

35:11

to get more exciting until you can enact

35:13

for the exciting part of the story. And

35:16

I was mortified, but he was right.

35:18

We have a question chat room from

35:20

author and audio book narrator, Chris crawl

35:23

says, it must be amazing to work with the

35:25

director. Chris crawl narrates books, does it from his

35:27

home studio. He says, do you have any

35:29

suggestions for self directing for narrators who have

35:32

to do it all on their own? And

35:34

this, this question I leave to you because I've never

35:36

literally never had to record an audio book on my

35:38

own. I've always had a director. Didn't you do it

35:41

in fact, I'm on your own. I guess not. It's

35:43

a good point. I didn't affect it, but you, but

35:45

you were all things. You were literally every human in

35:47

that crew. Yeah. I did everything I edited

35:49

the book and directed the book,

35:51

recorded the book, narrated the book, but that

35:53

was also, that's 15 years ago

35:56

now. So someone who's more fresh on it

35:58

as both a. Narrator receiving direction

36:00

and the director directing a narrator. What advice

36:03

do you have for Chris? I have

36:05

another three things to say the first thing is

36:07

the same the more hydrated you can be the

36:09

better So that means if you know you're gonna

36:11

be recording an audiobook for 10 days drink all

36:14

the things you can drink and stay hydrated and

36:17

consider not having too much

36:19

alcohol or too much salty foods or too

36:21

much any of that because all of that

36:23

dehydrates you that's So important second

36:25

thing I'll say is this the

36:27

most beneficial thing you can do is

36:30

to give yourself a Separation

36:33

between you as an author

36:36

or you as a hired gun whichever So

36:39

you skim the book or you wrote the book

36:41

whichever you give yourself a week or two if

36:43

you can before you Record

36:45

the book and you record

36:48

the book without doing any research You can't

36:50

look back and see is that right was

36:52

that was that bong blue or purple? You

36:54

don't do any of that you record it

36:56

as an actor as a narrator Okay And

36:58

then you go back and punch in things

37:01

that don't quite fit and the third thing

37:03

I'll say is The

37:05

more you can look at those words as

37:07

the human being you are in that moment

37:10

the more genuine and real

37:14

your reaction to the story and the emotions in

37:16

the story will be and that is a gift

37:18

that I got from my director at recorded books

37:21

he was like I don't I know you're very

37:23

uncomfortable like I told you it the the character

37:25

in necrotech and Nanoshock

37:27

are so different than the human being that

37:29

I am And I was having

37:32

so much trouble saying all those naughty words out loud

37:34

and he was finally like yeah But what if you

37:36

were that person how would you do that? Just do

37:38

it your way? It just feels bad to say you

37:41

know nun cunt which was I said a

37:43

lot None cunt was it The

37:48

word the word cunt is used for

37:50

more in KC Alexander's Necrotech

37:53

and nanoshock then I would use it

37:55

and I I feel that

37:57

cursing is my palate I am the

37:59

Picasso And what my director Harry said

38:01

was, fine, say it like A says it.

38:03

I don't care how she says it. Say

38:06

it like you can make it come out

38:08

of your mouth. Because what

38:11

if that's the best? And the

38:13

reality was it almost wasn't ever the

38:15

best, once or twice it was, but

38:18

it freed me to

38:20

put that down and do it another way. And

38:23

I couldn't do it. I got too caught up in my own

38:25

self before I just said

38:28

the non-con things. And then

38:30

I could do it myself. One question left and this

38:32

question from me, because this is something I fucking obsess

38:35

about, both as a performer, as a writer, and

38:37

as a writer who's expecting the

38:39

audiobook narrator to manage this process.

38:42

The question I'm about to ask, I realize,

38:44

not everybody is as militaristic about this as

38:46

I am, as demanding as I am. But

38:49

you, Ray gave you advice, take notes, kind

38:52

of come at it, basically with a fresh

38:54

mind, as a narrator mind. But

38:56

in a book like K.C. Alexander's Nanoshock,

38:59

or one of my books, you

39:01

can have anywhere from dozens to hundreds

39:04

of characters. If you

39:06

as an actor make the choice to

39:09

try to give each character a unique voice,

39:12

when you are just giving it basically

39:14

a light skim and a live read,

39:16

how on earth do you keep track

39:18

of the voices to do that? It's

39:20

a great question, it's a great question.

39:22

And I think part of it is,

39:25

as a narrator, as an actor, the

39:30

thing I need to know is kind

39:33

of the general environment and space that

39:35

the book is written in. Nanoshock

39:38

and Necrotech are cyberpunk, futuristic

39:41

craziness. Slay

39:43

is of course sort of urban fantasy

39:46

with monster hunting and lots of sex

39:48

gnomes. If you

39:50

understand the palette, the

39:52

groundwork, the sort of

39:55

the music bed, I'll call it,

39:57

of... a

40:00

story the same way that you understand that in a

40:03

30-minute sitcom like cheers you know there's gonna be a

40:05

laugh track you know that the pacing

40:07

says like oh things are gonna get a little

40:09

serious and then things are gonna have a laugh

40:11

track and then everybody's gonna have a good moment

40:13

and everybody's gonna have a bad moment like if

40:15

you can figure that out I think that's the

40:17

way that you do that because then if there

40:19

are a hundred characters you can kind

40:21

of very swiftly decide oh these are the

40:24

kind of the bad guys are the

40:26

antagonists in this scenario these are the

40:28

undecided these people might be good or

40:30

bad this is the protagonist this is

40:32

the antagonist and these are probably the

40:35

good guys and you can

40:37

do the same thing that you do

40:39

after so many years of narration yourself

40:41

you kind

40:43

of know like this is a throwaway

40:45

character who shows up fucking at once

40:47

and there's like a toolbox of like

40:49

seven voices for throwaway characters right and

40:52

one is a little girthy and

40:54

one is a little tiddly but

40:57

you can't have any of those same traits

40:59

for a main character unless you're willing to

41:01

put it down forever in your toolbox so

41:04

if I have a main

41:06

character and I'll give you an actor example if

41:08

you guys know who Jennifer Tilly is she's

41:11

great at the care and so

41:13

is Jennifer Coolidge I don't know if it's about the

41:15

Jennifer names Hathorn you're up but

41:19

like Jennifer Coolidge is great she's

41:21

always oh you look like the

41:23

Fourth of July and she's always

41:25

that person Jesus so when she

41:27

wants to earn an Oscar and

41:30

do her role she will never bring

41:32

to the table that you look like

41:34

the Fourth of July character okay she

41:37

will become this dirty mean visceral human

41:39

and she'll win an Oscar the first

41:41

time out right if she chooses to

41:43

do that right Jennifer Tilly was the

41:45

same way with the Chucky movies like

41:47

she was the pride of Chucky right

41:50

but she hasn't done that like she

41:52

hasn't come away from that because she

41:55

is branding herself as an actor who does

41:57

that well and then there's a person like

41:59

Ray Porter who who will dissolve into a

42:01

role. And there's Bronson Pachot did that,

42:03

well, obviously he was very, very clearly

42:05

on Perfect Strangers, the character that he

42:08

was, but as a voice actor, he

42:10

dissolves into every role he has. Luke

42:13

Daniels does that very well as a voice actor. So I

42:15

think that's what you have to do. You have to be

42:17

like, how many one true

42:20

things do I have? How many Jennifer

42:23

Coolidge's are in Jennifer Coolidge? And everyone

42:25

who knows who she is and knows

42:27

her from American Pie, they know what

42:29

I mean when I say the Jennifer

42:32

Coolidge in her. It's that one role.

42:34

I will say we're closing in, we gotta

42:36

finish up this episode, but I will say

42:38

that some of the super pros like Luke,

42:41

did you mention just now Luke? Daniel. Luke

42:43

Daniels, who's a fucking master at this. He's

42:45

such a good. And Ray Porter, who's a

42:47

master, and like these guys living is

42:50

doing a lot of audio books

42:54

very quickly, extremely well.

42:56

It's a three-prong approach, right? They're not

42:59

rushing it. They just have honed in

43:01

their talent so much. But

43:04

this is more of a statement and the question will be a response and then

43:06

we'll tap on out of here and go some champagne. Ray

43:09

and Luke, among others,

43:12

have sort of a ready to go

43:14

battery of voices. They do. That

43:16

they will switch off to different characters

43:18

in different books by different authors. So

43:21

a Jonathan Mayberry book, which

43:23

is usually voiced by a reporter, the

43:26

main character may sound an awful lot

43:28

like a Scott Sigler book main character

43:31

because they have that dialed in. And I'm sure Luke

43:33

Daniels does the same thing. So

43:36

as an actor, what's your take on that? So

43:38

here's what I'll say. As a person who consumes

43:41

an enormous amount of audio books. I love

43:43

R.C. Bray. I love Luke Daniels. I love

43:45

a million romance who

43:47

are mostly female. I love Ray Porter

43:49

all the much. I will say this.

43:53

One of the things that I think gifted

43:55

narrators do, gifted audio book narrators do, and

43:57

I'll add Yuri Lowenthal and Tara Platt to

43:59

this. Wonderful is they

44:01

continue to forever hone

44:05

Their good accents. I

44:07

don't have any you guys. I don't have

44:09

any I have New Yorker I have Ariella

44:12

Ariella is Scott mimicking me when I get

44:14

a little tipsy and tired and I am

44:16

that New Yorker, right? Like oh, what are

44:19

you doing here? What do you do? All

44:21

right. I need you to focus So

44:24

that for Scott could be a main

44:28

Stable of character, but here's the thing I

44:30

think they do Ray

44:33

Porter Narrated Mount Fitzroy

44:35

and there were two characters of

44:37

Indian descent in Mount Fitzroy Okay,

44:40

and there was one character of Australian

44:42

descent in Mount Fitzroy and he

44:44

gave his

44:46

best practiced Continually

44:49

worked on performance for those

44:52

accents while at the same time Giving

44:55

those characters the male or female

44:57

and all the gravitas that they

44:59

needed that said I think if

45:01

the main character of a book that

45:04

Scott or sorry that Ray Porter records

45:06

is Indian That

45:09

is a much more nuanced Indian voice.

45:11

He leans all The

45:13

way he does seem to put more work

45:15

into the the accents right like to differentiate

45:18

And the bigger the part is I think

45:20

that's the answer like every voice actor every

45:23

actor has a stable of things And if

45:25

you think about your favorite physical movie actor

45:27

any whoever it is, if it's Frank Sinatra,

45:29

I don't care if it's Dean Kelly they

45:33

had Other things

45:35

they had a V. They had Costumes

45:38

they had makeup. They had set design.

45:40

They had all of that a voice

45:42

actor only has his voice So when

45:44

a voice actor he or she

45:46

leans into a voice narration If

45:50

the main character is Indian that is

45:52

going to be the most complex Indian

45:54

accent right if the main character is non

45:58

American white dude, which most of narrators

46:00

are, that takes a little more work and they have

46:02

to focus on that, right? Right, but if

46:04

there's a person who's checking somebody, the

46:06

main character in at a hotel, and

46:09

they just need to differentiate that that's not

46:11

that throwaway character, that might also be an

46:13

Indian accent, because we're not going

46:15

to use it again. So I think that's

46:18

how actually true good narrators do it is

46:20

they, they kind of divide

46:23

up their stable

46:25

of voices into the most

46:28

protective way to get the

46:30

main characters main and the

46:32

throwaway characters not. Right,

46:35

right. All right, so we are

46:37

going to finish up this,

46:39

all you guys in the chat room hang loose, we're going to talk to

46:41

you guys a bit in a second, we're going to finish up the

46:44

podcast version of this. And

46:46

now we go to our closing stuff, let's see

46:48

where we are at. That is

46:51

it for this episode of Deep

46:53

Cuts. Next episode,

46:55

we are going to talk

46:57

about the process for recording

46:59

raw recordings to

47:02

produce an engineered and

47:04

final finished form recordings.

47:07

There is so much sausage. There's a lot of

47:09

sausage in there, the grisly bits, the fat bits,

47:11

it's not going to be pretty, a few buttholes,

47:13

maybe it's a lot of we're not going to argue

47:16

on camera. But trust me, we have argued all

47:18

the much about it. We've argued a lot about

47:20

this. Thank you for joining us. You all smell

47:22

an awful lot like flowers. We'll talk to you

47:24

in the next episode of Deep Cuts. My

47:43

family have worked the land

47:45

for generations. My

47:48

gran says the island does not

47:50

belong to us but we belong

47:52

to the island. And we must

47:54

be ready for

47:57

a great evil is coming. and

48:01

death follows with it. Listen

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and subscribe to the latest season of Undertow, The

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