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Hi, I'm your host Vasco Duarte. Welcome

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to the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, where

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we share tips and tricks from Scrum

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Masters around the world. Every

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day we bring you inspiring answers

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to important questions that all Scrum

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Masters face day after day. Hello

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everybody, welcome to our Wednesday the

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Leading Change episode this week with

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Milica Lubinich. Hey Milica, welcome back. Hello,

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thank you for having me again. Absolutely,

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we still have two more episodes to

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go after this one, so people stick

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around. There's a lot of lessons to

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come still, but today

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we dive into change, which is something

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we very often work with as Scrum

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Masters and Agile Coaches. So

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we want to learn about one of those

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processes, Milica, and how you went about it.

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What were the steps that happened in that

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process? And as you go through the steps

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and tell us the story of that change,

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highlight for us the tools, the tips, the

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tricks and the techniques you learned back then

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that you still apply today. So

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in one of my

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previous companies, I think, so

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when they started transformation, it was long

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before I came there. And

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when I came, what I witnessed, and I think

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it's also a very common thing, is that things

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are moving very slowly. And

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I think one of the

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reasons that things are very often

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moving very slowly is because we

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are jumping into a bit more agile

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ways of working, but the ways that

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we're doing decision making is still not

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aligned with that. So for a lot of

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things, we're still in the

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consensus mode of making decisions, and

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that is taking a lot of time. And

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behind consensus kind of decision making

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is also our ability or inability

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to let go of certain things,

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to trust others to be able

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to do their job properly. So

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it's a kind of very complex. topic. But

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sometimes changing the way that we're

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doing decision making is also helping

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let go of certain things, right? Something

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sometimes it's kind of a building on

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that brain muscle from, you know,

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starting the tooling before, you know, diving

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deeper into the into the issue. So

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what I did, what I did then

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was kind of first reflected with the leadership

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team on how are we as a leadership

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team doing decision making? So what are the

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things that we are

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willing or not willing to

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let go of? And can

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we move to a consent

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based decision making? And just

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for the reference, the difference is that for

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consensus, we need everyone being on board 100%.

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And when we talk

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about consensus, we are focusing more on having

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that 60 70% agreement, which means

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I'm not super happy with this decision, maybe

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it could be better, but I'm

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not objecting it. So when

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you get into that kind of thinking, it's

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kind of starting with what is

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the best thing that we can figure out

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right now so that we can get started

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and we'll align on the go. It's the

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most agile kind of way of doing decisions

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and kind of moving things forward, right? So

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and once we aligned in

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leadership team that this is something that we

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want to try out. And once I went

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through the kind of teaching and mentoring process

3:25

with with them, we said, okay, let's create

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something that will work

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as a guide for everyone within the

3:31

company to understand what is that exactly?

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How does you know, what is the

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difference? And how do you even make

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a conscious decision? Maybe for certain decisions,

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we have to have a consensus. And

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that's fine, right? It's too

3:45

big. It's super important. I don't know, it's involving a

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lot of people. There is a lot of risk. I

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don't know. It could be that for some decisions, you

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need to have consensus. But how

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about we start or try out being,

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you know, getting into the default with

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consent-based decision-making so that we

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can unravel and push things

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a bit faster. I

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created a bit of a guide so that people

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understand the difference and know how they can use

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it. Then I did a lot

4:18

of workshops with teams, again, going

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through the process, going through different

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what-if scenarios with them. Because

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once you introduce consent-based

4:28

decision-making, it's creating

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a lot of anxiety with people. That means,

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oh, what if someone makes a decision that is

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bad? Then you have to go

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through all these conversations and ask, what is

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a bad decision? How will you know if

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it's a bad decision? What are the means

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that you have as an individual to object

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it? If you think it will

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create a risk, it will create a huge

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cost. It will do this and that. Then

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it's something that we need to stop. But

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if not, if it's just about, oh,

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I might have a better idea, but

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I don't have it now and I'll

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work on it, yada, yada, then it's

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not an objection. It's an opinion, which

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is fair and you can share it,

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but it's not something that is going

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to stop us from progressing. Then I

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did a lot of one-on-ones

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with people. I did a lot of team sessions.

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I did a lot of Q&As. But

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I think the core for all these conversations

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was this guide

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that I created. It

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was more pretty much just understanding, how

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do you go with consent-based decision-making? How

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that can help you? What are the

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differences? How

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you can put it in practice with big decisions,

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but also on a daily basis. The

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biggest thing that

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I noticed from

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the whole process

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is how much of

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what I would call leg work is needed. How many

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of these things are needed? How many of these things

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are needed? these one-on-ones

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and team sessions you have to have. So

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it's not a straightforward thing.

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You often see this in organizations

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like HR launches something, and then

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they share it and they have

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one Zoom session and they think

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it's going to be implemented. I

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think for me, it was more like, okay,

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this is just a

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thing that we will have in the background, but what

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we actually need to do is go through a lot

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of these scenarios, a lot of these one-on-ones,

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a lot of what I also

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did was offering to people, okay, if you

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want to create a proposal,

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how about I help you? You can pull

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me in, let's do it together. Let me

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help you, coach you through the process. So

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I think when

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trying to introduce

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a change, at

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least from my perspective, as big as this one, it

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will take a lot of legwork. I

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think that needs to be taken into account.

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I was expecting that, but it took a

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lot more than I initially- It's

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funny you call it legwork, and I

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imagine that the metaphor is about going

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and talking, going and meeting, going and

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being present. Is that what you're referring

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to? Exactly. I

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remember the work by

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Esco Gilpi, who's an organizational,

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who was, he passed away some

7:22

time ago, an organizational philosopher,

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so he talked a lot about

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how organizations develop, grow, become better

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or not. And he had this

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metaphor that he used a lot,

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and he called it the ongoing

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co-creation. And

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he used this process of conversation

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as the, we

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could call it the mechanism right behind

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this ongoing co-creation. And

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when you talked about legwork, it immediately

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sparked in my mind this idea that

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what you were doing was keeping the

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conversation alive, because

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you understood that the change- would have

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to be implemented by others and

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you were just the catalyst. And

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therefore, as a catalyst, you need to

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keep the reaction going, right? Like if

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we talk about chemical terms. And

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one very practical way to do that

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is to become part of the conversation

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and keep the conversation alive. Is that

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how you see it? Am

8:21

I characterizing it well? Absolutely.

8:23

Loved how you reflected

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on this one. Exactly. What

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I'm trying to say is that for

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a lot of these things, you cannot just

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create a beautiful workshop and expect that things

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will change. You have to be present in

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the team meetings, in these one-on-ones, in

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the team sessions. You have

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to create a lot of different opportunities. I

8:45

think also a variety of

8:48

different places and times,

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like culture follow structure.

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You have to have different kinds

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of structure to help

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and keep the conversation going so that it's

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a regular team meeting where you can just

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jump in and they're talking about certain things

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and you just quickly can ask what kind

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of decision making would make sense for you

9:09

right now. And then it's

9:12

a sparkle and it keeps happening on the

9:14

go with different conversations. As I said, it

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doesn't have to be, oh, I have this

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idea and then I want to push it

9:20

through. It's more about changing the way that

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we're thinking about decision making on a daily

9:24

basis. And for that, it's

9:26

absolutely necessary to just be present

9:29

and do a lot of this

9:31

legwork. Yeah. I like how you

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call it the legwork because it really requires

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us to go and meet people. Very

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often in the Kanban community, we talk about meet

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the people where they are, right? Like don't push stuff

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onto them, meet them where they are. And I think

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that's a very graphical

9:47

way to describe it. These

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days it's easy to do the legwork. We can just sit

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on a Zoom call, although it is

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not as humane as being face to

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face. It still is one way to go

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and meet people where