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Welcome. To search engine and Pj vote. Every.

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Week on the show. Answer a question we

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have that the world. No question. too big.

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No question too small. This week. Should.

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We be concerned that the news web sites

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all seem to be disappearing. That.

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1:01

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and follow. We Can Do Hard Things

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In Odyssey Podcast available now for Fi

1:10

An Odyssey out and everywhere you get

1:13

your podcasts. Are

1:39

given region intro eyebrows I haven't

1:42

even. Totally. Settled on the

1:44

question here which is fine right now my

1:46

of beauty of fact that have better for

1:48

it should we be concerned that the news

1:50

website seem to be disappearing. Is meteor factors

1:52

better Honestly. From want

1:54

a curse? or get your the

1:56

intro. In mid January,

1:59

much of the. That on the media

2:01

curvy website Pitchfork was laid off. It was

2:03

increasingly familiar. Moment on my corner, the internet.

2:06

A. Lot of news and news you website

2:08

said felt like institutions are dying. I've

2:11

been shut down or losing most of

2:13

their Sat and then continuing in an

2:15

under new management, but it's mostly freelancers

2:17

or artificial intelligence sort of where. There's.

2:21

A long list of destroyed and decimated

2:23

website the people up and reciting. Buyouts:

2:26

At the Washington Post lay offs as L

2:28

A times as feed news is gone, Sports

2:30

Illustrated has been gutted. Gawker has been raised

2:32

from the dead and killed again three times

2:35

since I started recording this intro. To.

2:37

Do a Lot written about This A

2:39

lot of anguish by journalists who are

2:42

understandably upset that their industry is being

2:44

seemingly destroyed. In a

2:46

New Yorker writer Claire, my own ass

2:48

is media is prepared for quote and

2:50

extinction level event. The illustration was a

2:52

picture of a comet hitting the earth.

2:55

The dinosaurs were all named after publications.

2:57

A slight trade. As

2:59

journalists obviously bothers me, but I

3:01

get that non journalists might not

3:04

immediately care. I

3:06

wanted to have a conversation about what

3:08

all this mean. So for people who depend

3:10

on journalism to understand the world which

3:12

is everybody, whether they directly consume journalism

3:14

or not. When. Pitchfork

3:16

was decimated. There were a string of

3:18

lovely eulogies from journalists about with the

3:20

sediment. Them. As. A New

3:23

York Times writer as Reclaimer this piece

3:25

of is not just about Pitchfork exactly

3:27

but also about this strange moment are

3:29

experiencing. It. Seem to capture what

3:31

may be sitting under our feet right now. As

3:34

Or is a host of the As Or

3:36

klein out a repeat search engine guests returning

3:38

to the Octagon. I wanted

3:40

to ask him about what he thinks may be happening.

3:43

And whether he has a plan for how we're

3:45

supposed to get reliable information in road where they're

3:48

firing the journalists and to leading the web sites

3:50

they wrote for. As.

3:52

I. Was. A message I'm devastated

3:54

to beat. or think I prefer a

3:56

fast You don't seem totally concerned. I

3:58

don't seem to. I. Don't think

4:00

concerned, you just seem smiley this morning. I guess you

4:02

can the have bus Young's the same time. I

4:06

think our i mean my whole job is

4:08

covering things that are bad in the world.

4:10

You have to maintain a separate in interpersonal

4:13

aspect, right is how walk around to Psych.

4:15

I'd be happy to see you and not

4:17

happy about the destruction of my industry. You

4:19

don't have to be a media.is my first

4:21

that and so we've talked about. As a

4:23

little bit offline, I emailed you without my

4:25

concerns you send me some a mix of

4:28

its notes were you disagree with our to

4:30

my premise. I'm before you know

4:32

that I just want a lake set

4:34

up have like the backstory that us

4:36

to. As the weather's like

4:38

ludicrously early. In. The argument is

4:41

that where moment where the internet is Angie Media

4:43

I soon as you at the first time that

4:45

happens there's a time for either of us are

4:47

to media where the news business was a very

4:49

good business is like a series of. Relatively

4:52

profitable local monopolies. Key, just like

4:54

Dramatize, have a tap on. Yeah.

4:57

I think it's helpful actually to

4:59

to commit this from the perspective

5:01

of competitions. okay and competition and

5:03

it or one of the media's

5:06

main villains Peter T over the

5:08

whole book about this competition which

5:10

com is like. Is. Bad

5:12

William that everywhere it's greets lot

5:14

of innovation result of efficiency, but

5:16

in a perfectly competitive market, the

5:18

marginal profit goes down to functionally

5:20

zero. right? The more profit

5:22

you have in a market, the more

5:25

inefficiency you haven't. A market. Monopolies create

5:27

a lot of profit. Patents create a

5:29

lot of process. What was. The.

5:32

Rain, in fact of media for very

5:34

long time was that space had created

5:36

in efficiency. Me, no different newspapers dominated

5:38

different places. Right times dominated along with

5:40

The Post and the Daily News New

5:43

York, The L A Times I'm in

5:45

Southern California. I also the Oh She

5:47

Register where I grew up. Newspapers part

5:49

to be have local monopolies and that

5:51

gave them a business model. If you

5:54

were an advertiser who wanted to tell

5:56

people about shoes you advertise in the

5:58

Alley Times, The L A Times took

6:00

your money. That was about trying to

6:02

get people to buy shoes and use

6:04

that to fund like a dozen foreign

6:07

bureaus. It it was very strange business

6:09

by, but it worked very well. See

6:12

you had a period in the news

6:14

but most of the period than the

6:17

news but definitely people think of as

6:19

the the heyday of profits were what

6:21

the news business was selling was a

6:24

local advertising monopoly the Us and that

6:26

was very profitable and crucially that sustain

6:28

a lot of different players who are

6:30

not really in competition with each other.

6:33

When I grew up in Southern California

6:35

been York Times is probably net net

6:37

a better paper than the only times.

6:40

I never ever read a New York Times, right?

6:43

I barely ever saw one occasionally go to like

6:45

the bookstore and sometimes they would have a Sunday

6:47

New York Times for weirdos who had to spend

6:49

money on that, but it just had. The New

6:51

York Times had no relevance in my life. Yes,

6:54

Now the New York Times is I

6:56

think the biggest paper in California. The.

6:59

Key thing happening right now is all the

7:01

general interest players are in competition with each

7:04

other and that's going to have a kind

7:06

of natural a fact of if you're only

7:08

Mrs cab to one large news bundle, going

7:10

to the to the largest news bundle. You

7:13

went from a situation where the Baltimore Sun and

7:15

the L A Times and the New York Times

7:18

and like the Dallas Morning News for not competing

7:20

with each other D S to a situation where

7:22

they were sending eat are often hear people say

7:24

in American society as. Lucky as

7:27

it used as as competition. Was

7:29

kind of in someplace a bad thing, and

7:31

monopoly was kind of, in some ways a

7:34

good thing historically. Yes, Surprising.

7:36

Thing to say. Yeah.

7:39

It shouldn't be that surprising. Why?

7:41

armor? I'm not saying

7:43

monopoly is great and yeah, we're a

7:45

lot of problems with those kind of

7:48

local monopoly papers and who are the

7:50

gatekeepers and who made the decisions about

7:52

what was in the news. But in

7:54

efficiency is often good rom I sometimes

7:56

described as as benevolent inefficiency or benign

7:58

and efficiency you don't. One, everything optimized

8:00

within an inch of it's life Because

8:03

you need things that maybe don't immediately

8:05

net out in terms of how much

8:07

money they make The i have other

8:09

kinds of social guy that so when

8:11

it is a fundamental facts about journalism.

8:14

That. Is very unnerving. Is

8:17

it the most profitable kinds

8:19

of journalism? Are.

8:22

Often. Times, the least important kinds

8:24

of journalism and the most important

8:27

kind of journalism are often the

8:29

least profitable kinds of journalism. So

8:31

to give a a just canonical

8:34

example here: Warm Reporting Yeah, two

8:36

things about War bring it is

8:38

incredibly incredibly fucking expensive. You are

8:40

sending people. Into combat

8:43

zones you need to equip

8:45

them. Train. Them. Protect.

8:48

Them. Offered. As pay for

8:50

their lodging, their food, their travel

8:52

back and forth, their therapy, their

8:54

trauma therapy. Yeah, you can imagine

8:56

a hundred reasons why reporting is

8:58

is costly, but also. Know.

9:00

Advertiser wants to be on a war

9:02

story right? It's not like Coca Cola

9:05

don't like excited to be on this

9:07

story about war crime Seattle like says

9:09

December to remember having when deciding a

9:11

bomb of and did not happen exactly

9:14

so you have here I think just

9:16

fundamentally the most important work we do

9:18

the most costly work we do it

9:20

almost treasure Ways Rice. So what you

9:23

need is a business a can cross

9:25

subsidise. right? So you have the

9:27

war reporting which is expensive and loses money but

9:29

you believe is socially importance and then you have

9:31

say like in the olden days a big movies

9:34

sex and and like you have a lot of

9:36

movie reviews partly because people want to know which

9:38

movies are good but also because dead movie to

9:40

servers will pay for on of as I used

9:43

to find out what movies were playing the I

9:45

turned to the listing Sex and of the New

9:47

York Times with a local teams had paid money

9:49

to for the listing so now I do that

9:52

on fandango right. right? Answer the

9:54

problem as as things become unbundled

9:56

and more competitive, your ability to

9:58

have an inefficient and. Well, products

10:00

were be important and costly. Things are

10:03

paid for by the frivolous and profitable

10:05

things. access ago at Yeah and I

10:07

don't want to call all the possible

10:09

things frivolous, many them or or grade

10:12

or important or useful But investigative journalism

10:14

slow, difficult, like you need really skill

10:16

journalists to do that. Yeah takes a

10:19

long time. You don't make money off

10:21

of investigative journalism is why Propublica is

10:23

a philanthropic be funded publication. They are

10:26

amazing, but that is not a thing

10:28

capitalism will creates and this. Is why

10:30

as much as was good things happening on

10:32

Sub Stack and I'm not fundamentally optimistic about

10:35

Subsonic in other news that are companies as

10:37

any kind of savior here because what they're

10:39

actually doing is on bundling the stuff that

10:41

makes money from the stuff that doesn't. You

10:43

can make a lotta money. not I'm I'm

10:45

not that many people really do make a

10:48

lot of money doing this, but you can

10:50

make money if you're in an excellent takes

10:52

writer. Unsubsidized? Yes, but every Sub stacker who

10:54

makes any money will tell you it is

10:56

a volume. Games vs. So. To.

10:59

Than has people. Who.

11:01

Are doing slow, not profitable

11:03

work. He just doesn't work

11:05

right. It also as a distribution mechanism do

11:07

at as do not allow you to have

11:09

high volume Sprite. It's fine to get one

11:12

email from some new that are day you

11:14

know on fifteen from our newsletter. see how

11:16

this problem where it like. All.

11:18

Of that cross subsidies gone, it's

11:20

been taken by others, it's been

11:22

unbundled on. The different revenue streams

11:24

are getting chewed up, classified. you

11:26

know, when to Craigslist. Like all

11:28

these different things and all, this

11:30

was contributing to a situation where

11:33

the media was in this bizarre

11:35

business. Of selling Sue

11:37

adds to fund war reporting right? a

11:39

telling you which movies for playing defined

11:41

investigations into corruption at City Hall than

11:44

one other thing happened with yeah you

11:46

really should not underestimate and like I

11:48

will talk about this as long as

11:50

you want who has unearthed access The

11:52

platforms came and took all the my.

11:55

The. The whole period this sort of

11:57

explosion of often them that I was part

12:00

of in building box that we could build

12:02

a whole new set of digital first news

12:04

behemoths re that we could create not a

12:07

sites that people would read and and make

12:09

both the great things that will ultimately be

12:11

on the level of like the L A

12:13

Times or have been at the Washington Post

12:16

it would be able to sustain that many

12:18

riders that much reporting. this is based on

12:20

a theory that you could turn be huge

12:22

scale of digital media right all the sudden

12:25

more people reading you then you know had

12:27

ever read any news organization ever before you

12:29

tournaments. Money. But. The

12:31

scale is mediated by Google right? People

12:34

find you by searching something on Google.

12:36

What time is a Super Bowl? Famously

12:38

people would find you on Facebook. They

12:40

would find you on Twitter. Yeah! And

12:42

the idea was that in getting all

12:44

these new readers you would eventually turn

12:47

all these new readers into new advertising

12:49

dollars because of the platforms had the

12:51

audience. If you put your stuff on

12:53

the platforms they would send the audience

12:55

over and draw the an ad for

12:58

something and to Vox will make. A

13:00

few pennies and like that What? That's what

13:02

the plan was. slow and ideally I mean

13:04

price per any one person or another. you

13:06

know, few pennies of that. But but it

13:09

it was all the see a premium advertising

13:11

wouldn't would migrate brave. You know the magazines

13:13

and newspapers really go away or least become

13:15

diminished what they once were and you'd have

13:17

like nice as for blacks as cars and

13:19

right like with the stuff that really makes

13:21

money would. Yeah, not the sort of direct

13:23

consumer you know. One tricky get rid of

13:25

your belly fat is how do you feel

13:27

Dustin A background way about Coca Cola right?

13:29

The skull brand advertising. And

13:32

apart from Stop that. The. Thing that

13:34

broke in the media this is a big

13:36

point of his be sort of a pitchfork

13:38

one of things. It frustrates me every time

13:40

I see a of. Organization. Getting

13:42

got it is a tendency to focus

13:44

very tightly on their individual editorial decisions

13:47

and but then as they're laying people

13:49

off are getting folded into Gq or

13:51

whatever begin to look like mistakes, right?

13:54

If only they'd on x fact it's

13:56

happening to somebody. Different groups had the

13:58

same time suggested it's structural right and

14:00

the the keeping their is that. The.

14:04

Big. Platforms kept the advertising revenue

14:07

and this whole explosion of faith

14:09

that we can do this was

14:11

built on the idea that. You.

14:14

Could build this new audiences and turn them

14:16

into money and he couldn't He didn't control

14:18

the audience and the platform could host or

14:20

that advertising on itself. It could target that

14:22

advertising at the consumer better than you could

14:24

and I would like. the business model never

14:26

net it out. People keep want to look

14:29

at the editorials like is us apart. They

14:31

feel like they experience and that they have

14:33

expertise and right if you're a journalist or

14:35

you're a reader you five a lot of

14:37

views on the editorial of the things that

14:39

you consume. But what is actually happening is

14:41

of the business model didn't come together. So

14:43

it's like because. All these. Beloved.

14:46

Midsize. Web sites are either

14:49

late. Dying or doing some. it looks

14:51

like die. And you're saying in the cases me like

14:53

pitchfork. Are. Bias is to

14:55

say like oh well, if Pitchforks head

14:57

covered more the seven music or if

14:59

they covered this music differently or whenever

15:01

we look at bat and it's like

15:03

our eyes off the ball because if

15:05

the real question is whether dismantle and

15:08

structural those decisions even other easier for

15:10

us to understand are you about? they're

15:12

not the decisions that decided whether or

15:14

not the sink and he to access

15:16

and also the fact that it's happening

15:18

across so many different kinds of publication

15:20

suggest said it's you know. We

15:22

can all be making huge editorial mistakes right?

15:24

for the can be as we always are

15:27

on some level, but we were before to

15:29

yeah, we're in the taser, are making money

15:31

also Yes, and. It. The

15:33

editorial decisions are visible and legible

15:35

to the audience, and the P

15:37

and L statement is not rape

15:39

or so much happening on the

15:41

business side there, and it's very,

15:43

very hard for people to see

15:45

it. So the two things have

15:47

happened are everybody ended up in

15:49

competition with each other, which wasn't

15:51

how it used to be. Right?

15:53

Like every single content provider of

15:55

any kind. Is. In competition

15:58

with each other simultaneously? Yeah. The

16:00

contract profit downgrade names like Core

16:02

Economics he come on a one

16:04

and then at the same time

16:06

the platforms came into the middle

16:08

and just. Talk. The odd to

16:11

took the money like it didn't make any

16:13

sense but we had basically. Created.

16:15

This Rube Goldberg machine that worked

16:17

as a business. Then

16:20

the business became efficient and it wrecked the

16:22

business. Then there was a hope that we

16:24

could build it again or mine because Will

16:26

look. We had lost a bunch of the

16:28

revenue streams, but now we had so much

16:31

more audience, more audience and we had ever

16:33

imagine having ever before. Because like when we're

16:35

selling subscriptions and like and a little local

16:37

market right? Those nothing like what can happen

16:40

when an article on viral and all the

16:42

seven seven million people reddit Cf. But.

16:44

It turner Facebook at the Money from seven

16:46

million people reading it. But

16:48

as where we are, so there's there's.

16:51

like Erawan, they're beautiful, inefficient, noncombative, been

16:53

ah played that we all benefited from.

16:55

There's Era, to which is we all

16:57

thought we could make money on the

16:59

internet, but it turns out we are

17:01

sort of wrong. Why in your opinion,

17:03

did Era to. Work. For as

17:06

long as deadly. As like our capital Flows

17:08

adventure have announcers all venture capital. but it

17:10

was all venture capital. Far as venture capital,

17:12

no interest rates. We were not making money

17:14

right. Slow speed, was not making money rights

17:17

Like I know more than I can say

17:19

about the balance sheets of a bunch of

17:21

these places in the boom years. Yeah, there's

17:23

some as making a bit of money more

17:25

often losing a lot of money. Or

17:28

oftentimes is losing some money. Yeah, but

17:30

they were being pumped up by venture

17:32

capital and a low interest rate environment.

17:35

It is not a coincidence that the

17:37

tide went out on this era of

17:39

media when the sped began hiking interest

17:42

rates because when money had to pay

17:44

off more. It's. Stop

17:46

going into media and are to be fair.

17:48

This also coincided with and the end of

17:50

the view that. These. Bt companies

17:53

were going to become big sale players. If

17:55

you want to see an interesting document on

17:57

this. Andreessen Horowitz

17:59

the. The mentor from had a

18:01

at least fifty million dollar investment in

18:03

Buzz Feed via As years back and

18:05

they wrote a thing explaining their investment

18:08

on their site, even price to find

18:10

it somewhere and what they're basically saying

18:12

is it they think you can create

18:14

the site Crazy kind of scale play.

18:17

And what was his was a look like

18:19

like what was said profitable. This all makes

18:21

sense and reason or it's view of bus

18:23

it is a bus you desire is interesting

18:26

that from a couple prospectus but one of

18:28

the perspectives was bus feed didn't do advertising

18:30

where the other players did advertising at least

18:33

for a long time. be them to sell

18:35

ads to whomever they made their ads for

18:37

everything. Kind of felt like buzzy. Proceed had

18:39

a very big creative agency the the Adhd

18:42

he was in house Yes and so what

18:44

they were doing that was Proceed was demonstrating

18:46

it's extraordinary competence. At creating viral.

18:48

That's right. You can understand

18:50

the entire buzz feed operation

18:52

from a business perspective as.

18:55

A. Demo of what they could do for

18:57

advertisers to what they were saying is like

19:00

like we're going to do the same way

19:02

we said he around fire with itis top

19:04

ten list of whatever we can do that

19:06

for you you know lever and we can

19:08

have a list to call that is like

19:11

does soap and they actually pull that off

19:13

while times that was the idea. So that

19:15

the theory was it, Buzz Feed was going

19:17

to master the social media air of the

19:19

news. They were gonna be better at distributing

19:21

the content through social, better at then distributing

19:24

and creating advertising content through social. And

19:26

that you'd previous flywheel, it would be

19:28

like more audience, more money, more journalism

19:30

Or audience more money, more journalism entertainment

19:32

right? Those lot entertainment of us feel

19:35

obviously. And like

19:37

that was why they put money on it

19:39

wasn't drives me crazy. Later on when all

19:41

these people at Andreessen Horowitz complain about the

19:43

click bait era affect the sentimental value as

19:45

well as a as a Andreessen was both

19:47

on the board of Facebook still is in

19:49

fact med I guess we call it now

19:51

and was funding bus I where all this

19:53

click bait I can I can walk into

19:55

about Alex behalf of handling him I was

19:57

I was here I was watch out as.

20:00

I was Emmy Industry you are reshaping valuable

20:03

retrieve a guy like sorry you were surprised

20:05

at the that of Epicenter. Enjoy! It actually

20:07

drives me nuts but. That.

20:09

Was the theory you could turn scale into money

20:11

the you couldn't turn into more capacity because then

20:14

turned into more scale which he couldn't find it

20:16

More money. We have our own versions of this

20:18

Vox like. And it's just

20:20

not what happens on that. We just

20:22

couldn't do it though. Platforms kept too

20:24

much of the money to. Basically what

20:26

you're saying is like this era and

20:28

are even know how long it lasted.

20:30

But like that the era of web

20:32

first. Exciting, interesting staff that felt like

20:34

he could replace or even like ads

20:36

what came before as it was basically

20:38

investors may have bad about what might

20:40

work on the internet. a lot of

20:42

stuff getting made with the money from

20:44

that bad but that that never had

20:47

it never paid off. It was a

20:49

rough draft. And now. The. Rough

20:51

draft is kind of getting thrown away. Yeah.

20:53

And that doesn't mean you can't make any

20:55

money at it. I mean a bunch of

20:57

these players are still around to get work. like

20:59

Vox Media which is where I used to work

21:01

like a stone by think like You and

21:03

Great Arm But I mean I think some

21:05

of the dreams of ten years ago or

21:07

eight years ago have been trimmed. Me they

21:09

pie wouldn't agree with that. but if you look

21:12

at the work boxes doing that, the verge is

21:14

doing that either is doing that York Magazine

21:16

is doing. I mean it's great work. The

21:18

problem is like this dream of like the

21:20

rocket ship in Gone and when a dream

21:22

the rocket ship laughed. So did the money that

21:24

was coming with a dream of the rocket ship

21:26

rather than you just kind of in this much

21:28

one normal media business I mean that are visible

21:31

our say and I say it was like a

21:33

lot of Greece. The fundamental fact of what we've

21:35

learned in the media is the business is the

21:37

same is it was fifteen years ago to City

21:39

of. The. You're still

21:41

just dealing with a mix of

21:44

advertising revenue, subscriptions and maybe events,

21:46

but the Potters have taken more

21:48

of the advertising money subscriptions. You're

21:50

in competition with everybody else simultaneously.

21:54

And mean events or events but also lot

21:56

of events businesses got destroyed by covered. Do.

21:59

I still feel couture edu of

22:01

of ah ha. I

22:04

still feel a little to brave and

22:06

the now it is now. Thanks for

22:08

the summer job! As if it's Monday

22:11

morning at nine forty six, everything feels

22:13

totally fucked up. So okay. So. Last

22:16

time we spoke I was like what do you

22:18

get on the internet as right near as you know

22:20

what? I'm bummed Million Civilians is like have a good

22:22

time Another, these are sounds sad Little I time I

22:24

phone for Pitchfork and like a Pitchfork reviews like.

22:27

If I'd as you in December. Paid

22:29

for.com Like how many years do you

22:32

think this institution will exist in essentially

22:34

it's current form or publishes you know,

22:36

by music of use a day. In

22:39

December? What would you sad? I don't know enough

22:41

about the internals of Pitchfork. I would not have

22:43

thought and stood on thing patrol. Despite that expensive

22:45

to run the air and things can survive, it's

22:47

about whether or not they can thrive mean a

22:49

lot of things are able to survive at some

22:51

level. But. I think something you

22:53

can probably still find online. Is.

22:55

Something that is providing a service to the audience.

22:57

Ago, a real problem to me about Pitchfork is

23:00

why can I never give them money. For.

23:02

What was Korea service to me? Yeah I

23:04

want somebody out there hunting down great music

23:06

and and and finding it from yeah nice

23:08

has come to different subs. Ducks A Do

23:11

this I mean I love are filled Sherborne

23:13

Sub Stack features and restated. There's another one

23:15

called.a strain it is finds great music in

23:17

Brooklyn. I pay for that one So happily

23:19

right is fantastic. If you wanna like, learn

23:22

about does I will. Cool shows and what's

23:24

happening the Brooklyn be a music community. I

23:26

think at a at a kind of modest

23:28

level there is still a lot of space

23:30

to to do great things with subscription. And

23:33

I think was a mistake of Pitchfork to

23:35

not be subscription or he did earlier because

23:37

people like me they're doing something very specific

23:39

and I think one lesson, if you look

23:41

at things you do make money difficult to

23:43

do that as ugly tend to be quite

23:45

specific. My worry is about the ability of

23:47

things to move out of the specific and

23:49

into the general and we should. I am

23:51

not completely doom and gloom. I expected to

23:53

be a kind of renewal of certain forms

23:55

of media within the next five years and

23:57

I can talk about like what I think

23:59

that. Those and what I would expect.

24:01

I'm like what I would be starting

24:04

today if I was starting media organizations

24:06

because in a kind of paradoxically I

24:08

think is actually great time to start

24:10

things. But for what has been there

24:12

I think the most dangerous position to

24:15

be and right now is to be

24:17

a mid sized ambitious place that was

24:19

hooked on the business model does failed

24:21

in the twenty tense and early twenties

24:23

rates the things like Pitchfork that believed

24:26

you would do the scale plays into

24:28

digital advertising online and unlike the. Test

24:30

the stress of that got kicked out from under

24:32

you. write. One. Of the things that

24:34

you said about Pitchfork that I found

24:36

really interesting is that east you said

24:38

that you saw this is not a

24:40

story the to be under said as

24:42

just about a bunch of individual and

24:44

it for our choices at one specific

24:46

website. it's about sectoral change and at

24:48

the trend you see happening which feels

24:50

right to me both across media and

24:52

weirdly like across many forms of things

24:55

that try to get attention. Is that

24:57

like. A small things are surviving

24:59

here. you have a sub, sacks and this

25:01

huge battleships like to New York and are

25:03

surviving and then everything in the middle of

25:05

getting crushed. Like why? What is it about

25:07

all these factors that kills the middle? I

25:10

don't totally understand that. Everything in

25:12

the middle compete with everything at the top. right?

25:15

You gotta look at it from both a business side

25:17

and the audience sides of the business side. first. It's.

25:20

Just really hard to make money advertising. As

25:23

a meat organizations. You're. Not like

25:25

they're The issue is not the compete with

25:27

a New York Times if you're competing with

25:29

Spacewalk. You're. Competing with

25:31

google. You're competing with

25:33

Tipped Off. right? You're

25:35

competing with Netflix Yes, so that's

25:37

really tough for a So What?

25:40

Is your. Differentiated.

25:42

Proposal to the advertiser. So.

25:45

In the past the my be. I'm how

25:47

you reach the people of Indianapolis and you want

25:49

to be to people to Indianapolis. but you know,

25:51

who knows when people are in Indianapolis. Metal.

25:54

Right? Google right? They know when people are in Indianapolis

25:57

and a know how to follow them all around the

25:59

internet so that's. That's one thing. Then.

26:02

The next saying is that arms. You.

26:04

Are you know if you're doing anything kind

26:07

of general interest? You're

26:09

competing with everybody, right? You're competing with

26:11

the New York Times with The Washington

26:13

Post. With every one, you're competing with

26:15

everybody on you Tube. And this

26:17

is one of the the paradoxes of this

26:20

era. The audience probably has more access the

26:22

high quality journalism they have ever had in

26:24

human history. Ever. Rate.

26:27

Compared to when I grew up with like Id

26:29

l a times op ed page of i wanted

26:31

to be Political opinion that was it. Like that

26:34

was all the political opinion all had access to.

26:38

It wasn't much. Now. Found

26:40

political opinion. A. To around inept

26:42

right to privacy create a might have

26:44

been Fsf I drown in it, right?

26:46

You know I would be growing up

26:48

now in Southern California and like listening

26:50

the whatever pod Save America and reading.

26:53

Political. Sub stacks and magazines and the

26:55

New York Times opinion page if you

26:57

know, and like a million other things

26:59

like this is endless. Rather much people

27:01

can have. see. you're having to fight

27:04

against all of that. To get somebody

27:06

is fundamentally the subscriber dollars. A: How

27:08

much money do people want to spend

27:10

out of their pocket a month on

27:12

media? Or they're already probably like subscribe

27:14

Now that Netflix or Max or Amazon

27:16

Prime area? Who's Disney? Pos? Whatever. Some

27:18

combo of those like that in their

27:21

kind of media budget? Maybe they're going

27:23

to. Describe side one wheel news thing Maybe

27:25

right? That's probably going to be the New

27:27

York Times right on the save. A real

27:29

reason to be subscribing to the Journal or

27:31

the Financial Times. Most of what people want

27:33

is not local news. Yeah most of what

27:35

they want is is kind of mix of

27:37

this being uninformed citizen and also having to

27:39

stuff they enjoy reading. So they're going to

27:41

go for when a big players on. You're.

27:45

Competing for what's left after all that,

27:47

right? So on some stack like maybe

27:49

they really like you like I really

27:51

like Pj. That's the reason people subscribe

27:53

raid they're they're not actually subscribing because

27:56

it is on a cost benefit level.

27:59

Like. The most content for their buck a

28:01

subscribing because if you wanna support the percent

28:03

right that they're kind of individual personalize relationship

28:05

is really important. But if you're trying to

28:08

be something that is growing and so can

28:10

be quite that personalized right you want to

28:12

have a hundred or two hundred journalists. That's

28:14

like this really hard space because at that

28:17

level you really are competing with Time Magazine

28:19

and the Washington Post couple of a very

28:21

big players. So once you put that can

28:24

a midsize publication in competition with old very

28:26

big players who also if it begins doing

28:28

something interesting will begin immediately seeing. That

28:30

possibly hard way. it's a talent

28:32

copying at Rice, it's very hard

28:34

to thrive. It's not that nobody

28:36

can, and some people do, but

28:39

it is just an incredibly hard

28:41

business to sustain an. End

28:43

to the notice If if I'm just

28:45

like a media nihilists and I say

28:48

fine birds and a half like like

28:50

the New York Times going to be

28:52

the one newspaper in America s.a great

28:54

Philadelphia bureau and or a Cleveland bureau

28:56

and then people can prescribe tube some

28:58

smart sub sachs from analysis and takes

29:00

and to very specialized reporting. Why is

29:02

that that? Why do we not want

29:05

a journalism that has no middle. I

29:08

think a couple things. One is that. As.

29:10

Much as I love the Your Times and work

29:13

there myself, obviously the New York Times is not

29:15

capable for placing a local paper. It

29:17

just isn't it doesn't have. Even if it has

29:19

a Philly bureau doesn't cover Philadelphia the way the

29:21

Philadelphia Inquirer does. nobody than York Times would say

29:24

it does. It's like not part of our offering.

29:26

Maybe one day it should be great. I mean

29:28

I don't make that decision but you can imagine

29:30

actually trying to nationalize local news. or you can

29:32

imagine trying to have some kind of player that

29:35

as a opposite of franchise model for local news

29:37

by and we don't really have that right now

29:39

we're gonna says important, it just is not as

29:41

local news. I think one mistake or to down

29:43

the philanthropic side has been trying to make local

29:46

news too much of eat. Your vegetables kind

29:48

of thing but that was never the

29:50

same. People primarily wanted local news be

29:52

kept coming back for sports for restaurants

29:54

for does the connection to their community

29:57

and what might be happening in In

29:59

and what. They might like in it

30:01

and the fact they are coming back than

30:03

men when you were ported on crops in

30:05

city hall. They also saw that and that

30:08

gave the crops and reporting power Be Can't

30:10

just be trying to. Report.

30:12

On crops in the city hall that doesn't really have

30:14

a audience, the F but has the audience is like

30:16

the cash into the place, the. In.

30:19

This role but there's no metals. You.

30:21

Just lost too much local news, right? and it

30:23

never got replaced. It turned out that was one

30:25

of the things being subsidized. Their

30:27

know? I think this is other issue

30:29

which is the middle is where a

30:31

lot of interesting experimentation happens, where a

30:34

lot of great journals are trained up,

30:36

where things happen that you wouldn't expect,

30:38

it's not going to be a healthy

30:40

industries long term content wise if you

30:42

don't have a lot of different kinds

30:44

of things happening in it. I mean

30:46

when we were talk about Pitchfork, which

30:48

is very specific, it's like. You

30:50

want the things that be simultaneously

30:52

tuned to assert an audience, but

30:55

with the scale like the modest

30:57

but real scale of journalists and

30:59

money and and capital and and

31:01

time to do ambitious work? Yes,

31:03

and if you don't have that

31:05

than a lot of the best

31:08

work. Adrenaline does not happen. And

31:10

so you're losing local news. You're

31:12

losing interesting kinds of experiments. You

31:14

just lose a lot. For.

31:22

A short break for sir adds. When

31:24

we come back as Refine believes

31:27

we have to fundamentally change how

31:29

we think about consuming information on

31:31

I. He also believes that why

31:33

the words I just said in

31:35

a previous and is basically a

31:37

bad word says radical arguments and

31:40

the dirty word after break. Sergeant.

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34:13

first backs. Assuming

34:24

a hundred years had our history bikes I

34:26

have this year that were annoyed by corny

34:29

say there's his first error the internet where.

34:32

Everybody he get information from anymore places all

34:34

a suddenly had to be much better information

34:36

consumers like. She's analogy. Instead

34:38

of basically one grocery store you go

34:41

to engage your apple's sounds like you

34:43

had to identify what a good apple

34:45

is and if you eat the wrong

34:47

and of apple A can make you

34:49

natural sex scenes or can make you

34:51

kind of races are you may you

34:53

think like the election didn't happen or

34:55

whatever and I think if you look

34:57

at how we as news consumers navigated

34:59

that new media environment I don't the

35:01

we did a great job like I

35:03

don't think people's literacy when it kinda

35:06

finding good information really. Met.

35:08

The task at hand very well. My.

35:11

Fear is now as more

35:13

website disappear. That job

35:15

is getting harder and our ability to

35:17

do so it's is not getting better

35:19

and that's that's for of but I

35:22

feel afraid of right now. One

35:24

of the things I think I object to

35:26

in analogy and I think is been poisonous

35:28

across media for a long time is Edu.

35:30

The where you are are mine are as

35:32

a person as a consumer. Debt

35:35

is is kind of passive consumption unique. gotta

35:37

figure out which apple's gonna be no in

35:40

fact you with anti vaccine sentimental whenever. I

35:43

think it. Over.

35:46

Time. One of the

35:48

things that we're gonna have to discover. Is

35:51

an identity of ourselves as

35:53

generators of. The. Internet

35:56

Not consumers of the

35:58

Internet Meaningless meeting. On

36:01

a small level every time you read.

36:03

One. Thing or over another or watch

36:06

or listen to spend time on

36:08

you are creating more of that

36:10

thing and less of other things

36:12

right? There is still some money.

36:15

That. Comes from just like your attention then

36:17

at a level above that when you

36:19

pay for anything. We. Com

36:21

a member subscriber, then you're really sending

36:23

a signal to generate more of that

36:25

thing. And out of the other thing

36:27

like what we paid engine to on

36:29

mine we're willing into existence where we

36:31

ignore a mine we are asking to

36:33

die. Yes I think that we have

36:35

come to see. What

36:37

we do a mine a sort

36:40

of morally neutral with the only

36:42

moral decisions being made. By.

36:45

The providers of the content. So.

36:47

It matters like what?

36:49

decisions? The. Washington Post or Meadow

36:51

or whoever it matters. what decisions us companies

36:53

make right, they're giving of stuff we like

36:56

are we don't like and we can be

36:58

mad at them Are not mad at them.

37:00

But what we are clicking on reading where

37:02

we are spending our time, We we're spending

37:04

our money. I will. We can be blamed

37:06

for that. It's click bait right if you

37:08

want local news to exist. You.

37:11

Have to subscribe to local this. Write and

37:13

read it right and spend time. They're like,

37:15

you have to make that vibrant by your

37:18

presence and your decisions. Nobody else him. he

37:20

may be slanted. This will do it for

37:22

you, but you deathly can't trust them to

37:25

do it for you if you want like

37:27

Pitchfork to exist. You

37:29

need to read it if you decide that

37:31

the way you are going to access the

37:33

entirety of the internet is by spending time

37:36

on social media sites and occasionally clicking the

37:38

link than what you will. Dad is an

37:40

internet composed of social media sites which is

37:42

more or less what we have now. I

37:45

wish I had like a better answer. it

37:47

would be better of to Venture capital had

37:49

just found a bunch of like the fantastic

37:51

business models cf but at some point if

37:53

we don't want this. If people

37:56

don't want this, then they have to

37:58

do something else exists, choosing to. Then

38:00

to search engine. Means. There

38:02

is more search engines bright shooting Wilson Vs

38:04

or Klein show means was more as a

38:06

poncho. choosing not to listen on some level

38:08

like means there's less of it and a

38:10

pretty something should be listened to. Everything or

38:12

everything should be pure for to but. It.

38:15

Is worth asking if you find what I'm saying

38:17

here bad. but you do not subscribe to any

38:19

local news you are not neutral in as you

38:21

are the problem in a. Santa.

38:23

I just don't think people absorb that.

38:25

I actually think the left has become

38:27

allergic to any sense that there was

38:29

like individual responsibility and collective problems that

38:32

like the decisions you make individually relating

38:34

to. Fly. Med or animals

38:36

or news or anything. It's like

38:38

this some view that everything to

38:41

be solved by a policy yeah

38:43

but particular and things that are

38:45

driven by capitalism. Is. A

38:47

what's the people do is what decides what

38:49

there is more and less of a can

38:51

do different things like you can do policies

38:53

and I were I have policies of I

38:55

would like to see done but it is

38:58

not actually neutral but we do like weird

39:00

generators of the internet. we are generators of

39:02

the media. What we give our time attention

39:04

money to is what drives and what doesn't

39:06

get it is what die so if you

39:08

look around you like Athena like this mix

39:10

of what is currently thriving a dying on

39:12

the internet traffic like it's security because I

39:14

feel if you don't village. I.

39:17

Don't have another answer. I mean collectively

39:19

at some point it us be worth

39:21

it to create and fun. The the

39:23

kind of journalism people wanna see in

39:25

the world to what you're saying. his

39:27

legs whether you'll save your semis were

39:29

ah there's no ethical consumption and recap

39:31

of marriage. Actually there is ethical gets

39:33

hubs and under Catalan there's more ethical

39:35

consumption. There's less article consumption and your

39:37

attention as a kind of consumption to

39:39

for you. The most frustrating person in

39:41

this paradigm is like the Vs on

39:43

Twitter campaign that twitter like dude it's

39:46

like you're sending money. Ted Elon

39:48

musk and complaining about your unmask as you

39:50

like paper twenty dollars and put in that

39:52

now my fury of people complain about whether

39:54

yes oh yeah, Twitter right? Yes If you

39:56

don't want to be more twitter more you

39:59

on mosques acts. But. You are

40:01

sitting there all day. Reading.

40:03

And then adding value to you on

40:05

mosques. Axe. Then. Actually, what

40:07

you want his effort to be more

40:09

Elon musks backs right? you're voting for

40:12

with your you are voting for your

40:14

attention. Any up, No ethical consumption of

40:16

capitalism. People that's a kind of personal

40:18

absolution. See, don't have to think about

40:20

anything. Yeah, like I can tell you

40:22

that there is more and less ethical

40:24

consumption under capitalism If you are buying

40:27

lot of factory farmed meet super cheap

40:29

chicken. were those chickens if unbelievably horrible

40:31

monstrous lies Because the only thing that

40:33

you see at the market is how

40:35

to keep the chicken breast. Is. I

40:38

can tales and unethical decisions right? And you're

40:40

creating more. Her fine treatment

40:43

for chickens whereas I give you try to

40:45

buy better things are you create more market

40:47

for better things. And that ought

40:49

to be might also help lead to policy

40:51

change or whatever I often say. like with

40:53

in his presence consumption people to think of

40:55

themselves, the individual know it's for collective taints,

40:57

Meaningless meaning that your decisions don't matter so

40:59

much because or their your decisions Any one

41:01

of us as a small part of this

41:03

very very large hole. but. The. Decisions

41:06

you make it influence the people around

41:08

you. Human beings her or social but

41:10

we do is contagious. You know, Like,

41:12

you should understand that there is a

41:15

relationship between like individual decisions and positive

41:17

outcomes. Again, I want to be very

41:19

clear that I'm not saying at all.

41:23

That. What happened in media is that

41:25

like individual people made a bunch of

41:27

bad decisions and this is the fault

41:29

of the consumer. Like the business models

41:31

gop wracked. By. Platforms

41:34

by bad venture capital, decisions by a

41:36

lot of forces are out of our

41:39

control, right? and we were like we

41:41

were not prepared for it. We had

41:43

no immune system like we're being given.

41:45

You know, Curiosity beat

41:48

headlines and serve things for I really like

41:50

the didn't see it all but at some

41:52

point you have to start. If

41:54

you think this is going badly and say okay.

41:58

Now what? These are you

42:00

using is our fault, but solving it might

42:03

still be our responsibility. Yeah, this is a

42:05

position of retreat here. right? like this is

42:07

like a last gasp you're saying in your

42:09

intro about you know is a media ready

42:12

for an extinction level event. This

42:14

isn't where I was ten years ago. I mean

42:16

like I will say, like I started a number

42:18

of media organizations. Yeah, I started Want Blog. I

42:21

was a cofounder A Box of Suffers Editor in

42:23

Chief. A Box Inbox is still there like doing

42:25

great works, but. I. Am looking around

42:27

me and I'm seeing things die.

42:30

I. Am seen great things in great journalists

42:32

get got it they are and something

42:34

like. Recoils. And me from

42:36

to seen people complain about it on social

42:38

media you know I was on the show

42:40

last talk about how use the internet Saintly

42:42

yeah I think one thing you're hearing from

42:45

be here is I think a harder questions

42:47

had easy internet ethically right. I.

42:49

Don't know what it means. To

42:51

use the internet ethically like I don't have a

42:53

great answer to this will give you an example.

42:55

This one of things have been trying to think

42:57

about over the past year year, year and a

42:59

half as a pet I use can a smaller

43:01

products the just kind of interesting doing something different.

43:03

One of things are tried using this period was

43:06

a really interesting browser experiment called Arc. On

43:08

the Ark Browser and they had a bunch of

43:10

cool ideas inside of it. I'm Yeah Was a

43:12

small group. And. It recently got a bunch

43:14

of puffer. It's. For creating a

43:16

kind of search product is built on

43:19

a eyes and what was going out.

43:21

What this project does is when you

43:23

search for something be a I basically

43:25

weeds a bunch of relevant web pages

43:27

and then assembles an entirely new web

43:29

page for you like past East out

43:31

of the stuff it is read giving

43:33

you the answer to think of searched

43:35

on This was okay. so this was

43:37

a similar product called Perplexity as it

43:39

does the same thing and I had

43:41

a real moment of Utley as a

43:43

person who honestly I'm not very doom

43:45

and gloom. About anything I tend to

43:47

think like I am a and perhaps

43:49

too lazy citizen were a lot of

43:52

big problems I might smart people who

43:54

care of when figured out it's gonna

43:56

be fine like I can might try

43:58

to stay on the sidelines. and I

44:00

used Perplexity for the first. They asked

44:02

some questions I was in front of

44:05

me as an Ai wrote essentially a

44:07

Wikipedia article specifically for me and it

44:09

cited sources name is like you know

44:11

site His one dinnertime said his into

44:13

and Pr and was giving me all

44:15

this information that journalists had worked to

44:17

provide. It was not sending me to

44:20

the underlying website I thought oh my

44:22

god Google search has really for me

44:24

such for the past few years. Perplexity

44:26

is doing a great job and if

44:28

no one visit says. Web sites and

44:30

no one was that advertising and known

44:33

his with a subscriptions. The underlying saying

44:35

it is mining for information like this

44:37

could be the next comment. Services like

44:39

this could wipe us out at really

44:41

scared me I'd I'd the same response

44:44

to See Newton i think had the

44:46

exact right word in his platform, a

44:48

newsletter and Opus Guest on the so

44:50

we said that he uses with frivolous

44:52

yeah like the level of irresponsibility and

44:55

this and this was a cool little

44:57

companies. By. Noted is trying

44:59

things out right to see interviewed dub have

45:01

ark and years ago we'd have to figure

45:03

you know what, there's no I think ethical

45:06

added to this actually arm us and so

45:08

I really find the question of how to

45:10

ethically. Use. Internet right now

45:12

had an ethically be a person consuming

45:15

media. Difficult. And

45:17

it. I really wish you

45:19

would have me on some time for something fine

45:21

and not gonna like a wonderful person. The. But.

45:25

If you can't you can't just retreat from and this

45:28

is. What? It is made. I

45:30

don't believe in turning away from what the world

45:32

actually is. It. Even

45:34

seems that you think are gonna

45:36

be a good option. Over.

45:39

Time. I mean you know Cory Doctorow causes the

45:41

instead of the case and cycle where something begins

45:43

by giving a lot of value to you, the

45:45

use or like think of early Google and eventually

45:47

trying to extract a of value from you the

45:49

user. So the other thing about things like perplexity

45:51

is right now they're funded by venture capital. They

45:53

don't need to make money when they do need

45:55

to make money like God knows what they're going

45:57

to do to do that to us. And so.

46:00

It. Is very hard. I.

46:02

Find this really tough like I look around

46:04

and I see it getting worse and worse

46:07

and I see what's coming the like the

46:09

kind of a I. It.

46:11

Feels rapacious to me. Yeah,

46:13

It. Feels like these companies. I know people These

46:16

companies. I like people these companies and I

46:18

believe that they are there because you're trying

46:20

to create a super intelligence that if it

46:22

doesn't you know seven percent odds like destroy

46:24

the entire world is gonna really solve a

46:26

lot of and that are all access. I

46:28

get it. I know what they're doing like

46:30

their idealists but in the meantime what they're

46:32

doing is they're taking. Like. The

46:35

sum total. Of. Human cognitive

46:37

labour available to them. Be.

46:39

Are feeding it into a machine. They.

46:42

Are training them seen on it. And.

46:44

The they're going to turn around and

46:47

monetize the output of all that human

46:49

labor. For. Themselves. And.

46:53

All. The people who did the graphic

46:55

design that led to Dolly and all

46:57

the people who are doing like the

46:59

news gathering that are informing you know

47:01

Gb Three and Gemini. They.

47:03

Have no fucking idea what's gonna happen to be

47:05

people. the arm I don't want to see the

47:08

don't care but they don't think it is their

47:10

responsibility and maybe it's not raid. I mean. In.

47:13

Some ways it easier to imagine ethical consumption

47:15

under capitalism than it is too much an

47:17

ethical production under capitalism price. You are to

47:19

try to compete with the other guys over

47:21

there and if you don't they're gonna win

47:24

now. and like I mean right now it's

47:26

like there's two moons as he having an

47:28

era and one is like whoa look at

47:30

this is amazing. Like opening I release their

47:32

sore I demo where they do the image

47:34

generation same but with video in your i

47:36

got my got six months from now. Apply

47:39

beyond make a Pixar movie everyday. do that

47:41

and that's really cool and really went ahead.

47:43

And then I have friends be right on

47:45

the internet people I don't know and that

47:47

who like. If. You.

47:50

Input. A prompt and one of

47:52

these services your centrally like inviting the

47:54

devil into our homes and I get

47:56

why they feel that way and I

47:58

also feel like asking. People to not

48:00

participate in a useful an exciting piece

48:02

of technology feels like. Probably.

48:05

Not our gonna solve. So this is

48:07

where I do think at some point

48:10

you get into this question of policy.

48:12

I. Think for things that. Capitalism

48:15

is not going to fun this. If

48:17

we think they are important, we're going

48:19

to have to fund them some other

48:21

way. Philanthropy as one way. And I

48:23

think there's certain things. Philanthropists were fun,

48:25

but. I. Don't know. I mean at

48:28

some point and you see this and other

48:30

countries like do you want to have publicly

48:32

supported media like much more than what would

48:34

it even mean to do that? Like who

48:36

gets it Like how do you think about

48:38

that? The politicization of that it raises very

48:41

difficult questions. Yes, But.

48:43

So does all the rest of the stuff

48:45

and were just letting a barrel forward without

48:47

the himself. He has a step of Ff

48:49

Ff and so. I.

48:53

I think we're going to lose

48:55

a lot very quickly. And

48:58

not a lot of everything. Again I

49:00

think people have access to say better

49:02

foreign news and they've ever had in

49:04

the entire some toll of human existence

49:06

which is great but like a whole

49:08

see information which monkeys and ecosystem like

49:10

requires a lot hours for to get

49:12

people to think in terms of the

49:14

comments are we putting the informational comments?

49:16

are we in reaching the informational com

49:18

and said we have to think about

49:20

this is a broad based way or

49:22

something we all or part us and

49:24

we haven't had to think about it

49:27

that way because. This very weird

49:29

thing supported us. And

49:32

that worked because we don't want to

49:34

pay months and also like we're financially

49:36

strapped than and so the sack it

49:39

news seemed almost fleas. Was. Grade.

49:41

Like. Why would you pay for news if

49:44

it's free? Until

49:46

it's not great. That was a good deal

49:48

with the advertisers, but the advertisers weren't there

49:50

to support the news. The advertisers are there to

49:52

sell you stuff. Yeah, and when they can

49:54

sell use of somewhere else, they, well, and

49:56

capitalism is great. like I'm a capitalist celebrity.

49:58

Like said about me by. In a

50:00

places were capitalism should work but not everything

50:03

should be capitals of not everything is a

50:05

market, not everything is a well structured market

50:07

Rate Something's will not be supported by this

50:09

is a really good to me. Like all

50:11

this is a little bit radicalizing. requires very

50:13

different kinds of kinds of thoughts. like it's

50:16

as it's very it added. Do.

50:18

Something as a collective to.

50:21

And in someone's reason, I actually often focus

50:23

on individual action, as if it gets easier

50:25

to act collectively when you're acting individually. What

50:27

he means? I don't think people typically. Vote.

50:30

In ways the don't align how they act.

50:33

It. Is a lot easier to believe

50:35

in strong protections for animals and

50:38

slaughterhouses when you don't eat much

50:40

meat. When. You're a we the

50:42

lot of meat. Probably cheap, factory farmed

50:44

meet sexy. Harder to believe that. like.

50:48

You share strong protections a could lead

50:50

to that meet becoming costlier. Like recognizing

50:52

that you don't need that all the

50:54

time. Helps you get to

50:56

the point we can imagine like something else

50:58

because if you've already kind of me like

51:00

the internal cyst on people don't tend to

51:02

vote for radical. New Worlds are not the

51:05

one that they are willing to live and

51:07

if it's going to change their life, they

51:09

tend to change her life. And info for

51:11

the Radical New world, right? It's like a

51:14

friend of mine used to say about exercise.

51:16

see the issue is like an ass and

51:18

proceed part of a sudden guess. It's like

51:20

having change proceeds, like wanting a different world,

51:22

in which those habits would make sense. Yes.

51:25

setting. This idea that policy will save us we

51:27

have to do nothing is as like not really

51:29

how things alternately work. both things have to have

51:31

and buildings have to happen. Again,

51:38

take one more quick break and then

51:40

if we the people who read things

51:42

on the internet and listen to things

51:44

on the internet has to same some

51:46

of our habits to preserve what we

51:48

love. Ah, what exactly

51:50

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53:38

Okay so what might enjoy as

53:40

a things are bad. That.

53:44

Some of this is about as was

53:46

real was you. As much as it

53:48

feels like being told to become like

53:50

an internet v and we have responsibility

53:52

here are like what we consume matters,

53:54

what we pay for matters will be

53:56

Ignore me. My mother delivers the the

53:58

identity the person identive consumer. Etti

54:01

of a kind of cattle. Right is

54:03

a passive identity. Of

54:06

be. Whatever you want to be

54:08

an Internet began as a long time

54:10

figgins like a lot of my life.

54:12

nobody likes of against very unfortunate but

54:14

don't be passes. Played. Songs.

54:18

Act like. A lot of

54:20

is is happening to us. But. It's

54:22

gonna keep happening to has if everybody does

54:24

keeps acting like it happening to us. Yeah,

54:27

and like if you're willing to be treated

54:29

as cattle, you will be treated as cattle.

54:31

They are a good like. That's the end

54:33

result here. If you're not willing to do

54:36

something else than like I hope nobody likes

54:38

his colleagues to was it looks likely good

54:40

for you. In this world

54:42

you're trying to model in which we don't

54:44

think of ourselves as news consumers, We think

54:47

of ourselves as to like attention generators and

54:49

we are. Somewhat.

54:51

As a call in what we paid has into

54:53

and what we ignore and what we pay for

54:55

smoke. More. You subscribed to?

54:57

Are you spending like four hundred dollars a month

54:59

on local news exceptions like that? Are you doing?

55:01

I'm an Isis had to net any say live

55:03

in Yet I want to The New York Times

55:06

so both get a subscription to the thing I

55:08

work for and it's a local news source Steve,

55:10

you don't pay for the near tenth that you

55:12

work at dusk. I were to give you a

55:14

seat. There were people who were saying members of

55:16

Debbie I Say and I was like both Empress

55:18

and computers like they're just stare giving you money

55:20

that is just fit. In fact that he's to

55:22

take a slight break up probably. I still subscribe

55:24

a my household so surprised to a bunch of

55:26

local California. Things and also some local New

55:28

York things but I'm some as a don't

55:30

want out like I'm a media professional and

55:32

I'm just going to have a different way

55:35

information habit on the some other people do.

55:37

I honestly think that wonders good place to

55:39

start is not trying to mimic like anybody

55:41

else is pattern to sick. In.

55:43

Your max there should be. Local.

55:45

News: If your news consumer Local Lucid exists

55:47

somewhere in that the I: even if you're

55:49

not subscribe to it, you're just actually does

55:52

reading at you. Get the email newsletter and

55:54

open it up your local paper. That's really

55:56

something right? Then you know a little bit

55:58

more about it and they can the be

56:00

advertising off of that on. I get a

56:02

bunch of music newsletters that I love, like

56:05

features and restated. odd.a strain flow stayed arm

56:07

us and I read these and I picks

56:09

up a bunch of my time and it's

56:11

grade I: the Kindle app like I read

56:13

all the books I like Box actually like

56:15

carrying around magazines. I still kind of. Magazines

56:18

are my favorite single format for consuming media

56:20

in. I feel healthier when I do it.

56:22

Too if we're losing them at all. And.

56:25

We're entering a new era where like

56:27

things are crammed but like different things

56:29

may become possible. What? De Saint. The

56:32

next wave of. Experimental.

56:34

Successful possible Me organizations

56:36

or. Media individuals

56:38

might look like the So it is

56:40

a really important to me to not.

56:43

Make. The sound to like more place everything

56:45

with last arm I think we're in like

56:47

a kind of declined but but us can

56:49

have ups and downs and I do think.

56:52

I'm. Very. Strange eating. This is

56:55

a great time. To start

56:57

media organizations slice. One

56:59

I think that one of the things that

57:01

went wrong the last time is we just

57:04

believed in business model that wasn't real and

57:06

I we built for business model the wasn't

57:08

real and them and abysmal the became not

57:10

real. The things built on top of it

57:12

began to collapse. I think people actually have

57:15

a more realistic view right now it's like

57:17

they're few real business models. He get people

57:19

to pay for something rather. me the great

57:21

innovation a sub stack is. It turned out

57:23

that you could get people to pay more

57:26

for an individual rider than anybody thought the

57:28

F Re people would pay. Sixty eighty. A

57:30

hundred dollars a year to for somebody they

57:32

liked. and then you didn't need that many

57:34

those people, right? If you have five thousand

57:36

of them, had thousand of them, That's you.

57:38

Know that's I could support a newsroom of

57:40

Twenty, but it does support something real. One

57:43

thing about the social media scale plays

57:45

is that they pushed towards. Generalities:

57:50

right? You are trying to compete with

57:52

everything and be like viral waves like

57:54

washing was popping. All I think this

57:56

era of the media is gonna push

57:58

toward specificity you wanted. Very specific

58:00

things the ten or fifteen or twenty

58:02

or twenty five thousand people will find

58:04

of immense value to them and pay

58:07

money for. and that's how lot of

58:09

media traditionally work That me there a

58:11

of really important magazines it always have

58:13

like low tens of thousands of scriber

58:15

as the your public washroom of the

58:17

The American Prospect than Us interview or

58:19

incredibly Important in American Life and make

58:21

is still are. I think there's a

58:23

lot of philanthropic interest right now and

58:25

local news and I think you could

58:27

create a lot of really amazing local

58:29

news. Products: I think that we now know

58:31

how to do subscriptions much better than we did

58:33

ten years ago. I think we've more distribution possibilities

58:35

are that we've learned more about how to write

58:37

for people online. Race: I think there's a lot

58:39

of room for things that do not need to

58:42

attain scale like I think you're gonna have a

58:44

lot of things that are five, ten twenty people

58:46

and are not trying to get bigger than that.

58:48

Cf. And. Because and I'll try to get

58:50

bigger than that they can do with the doing

58:52

well at a reasonable cost. and like people can

58:54

get a tremendous amount of value from those products.

58:57

Fifty people like you can do a lot with

58:59

that. Most the new things I love with like

59:01

that like for for media which seem like really

59:03

amazing tech coverage that for people to sources of.

59:06

I read right now like a really Blackbirds by

59:08

plane was like a sub sank that about men's

59:10

fashion I don't know how to wear clothes are

59:12

my close to where I'd never bought an article

59:14

of clothing because I read about in Blackbirds by

59:17

Plane. I think that because I was thinking. When

59:19

they have dress better it hasn't happened.

59:21

but like I did enjoy a voice

59:23

he specific saying about a world that

59:25

I'm enjoying being of layer and you

59:28

know he has. It's a difficult thing

59:30

that I think is unsolved for this

59:32

period is distribution at the beginning so

59:34

that the part of this the I

59:36

think is gonna be once we figure

59:38

it out. The click that makes a

59:40

lot of this flower is okay. you

59:42

started the specific things. How. Do

59:44

get it out there. Because. That's what

59:46

search engine optimization and social media where

59:48

the answers to for a while For

59:50

a they told you how to go

59:52

from nowhere to an audience. Like

59:54

you were hooking on to these distribution

59:57

platforms that already existed as if oldest

59:59

gotten worse. No, really, it's

1:00:01

much harder to do that right. I mean,

1:00:03

he many people may. The pointed sub stack

1:00:05

was very fundamental way for people to monetize

1:00:08

twitter audiences. See as twitter breaks down,

1:00:10

he can't do that as effectively. So. Right

1:00:12

now I think how you have a

1:00:15

finance relationship with the noughties Israeli solves.

1:00:17

I think that the editorial opportunities are

1:00:19

really they're I think there is gonna

1:00:21

be at least some money in terms

1:00:23

of like subscription and Slim brought arm

1:00:25

and to some degree advertising which can

1:00:28

support quite a lot more at least.

1:00:30

And it is supporting currently. and the

1:00:32

the hard question of this era is

1:00:34

distribution. Like how do you go from

1:00:36

nobody reads this thing or knows about

1:00:39

it to. Fifty

1:00:41

thousand was like not very much for the

1:00:43

internet by like but it is enough. maybe

1:00:45

get a thousand subscribers. If you're doing a

1:00:47

great job at he get there. Once.

1:00:49

You figure that out. I think you're going to see a lot of things built.

1:00:59

As or Climb Media got in

1:01:01

at V and host of the

1:01:03

podcast be as reclines out Also

1:01:06

I promise of the New York

1:01:08

Times as or thank you thank

1:01:10

you for this was troubling. A

1:01:12

pleasant ah. Urgent

1:02:01

in his presentation of Odyssey and six

1:02:04

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