0:00

The first time Christian Angamire took

0:02

psychedelics in 2014, it changed the

0:04

trajectory of his life. Nearly

0:07

a decade later, he's become one

0:09

of the most influential voices in

0:12

the worlds of biotech, crypto and

0:14

anti-aging. People look to

0:16

him for guidance on the next

0:18

big thing. They invest

0:20

in his ventures, hoping to be part

0:23

of something groundbreaking. And

0:25

they listen to his bold ideas

0:27

about pushing the boundaries of human

0:29

potential. It is

0:31

not hyperbole to say that

0:33

Christian is one of the

0:35

most visionary entrepreneurs of our

0:37

time. Christian Angamire is a

0:40

German founder, entrepreneur and investor

0:42

known for his bold moves

0:44

in spaces like biotech, crypto

0:46

and psychedelics. One

0:48

of his latest ventures is a

0:50

perfect example. It's called

0:52

the enhanced games and it's

0:54

setting out to be the Olympics of

0:56

the future, but with one crucial difference.

1:00

Performance enhancing drugs aren't just

1:02

allowed, they're encouraged. Christian's

1:05

approach to business and

1:07

life is supposedly about

1:09

embracing the controversial. But

1:12

that's what makes it so compelling.

1:14

Everyone can relate to the desire

1:16

to challenge the status quo. Everyone

1:19

knows the feeling when society

1:21

tells you something is impossible

1:23

or off limits, but you

1:25

want to pursue it anyway.

1:29

But I bet you won't find it

1:31

surprising that some of Christian's ventures like

1:33

his advocacy for psychedelics or

1:35

his new sports competition allowing

1:38

performance enhancing drugs are met

1:41

with scepticism and pushback. But

1:44

that's what being a visionary entrepreneur

1:46

is all about. And I

1:48

for one can't wait to see where

1:50

Christian's unconventional approach takes

1:53

him and us next.

1:56

Stay tuned. My conversation with

1:58

Christian Angamire coming right up. up. The

2:02

reason I want to be on the show is you've just

2:04

embarked on something new and you know,

2:06

it's just like you're always embarking on something new, which

2:08

is like the sort of exciting nature of what you do.

2:11

But this is different. Because

2:13

this is, I would

2:16

say, very controversial,

2:18

not that some of your other work isn't

2:20

controversial and you're psychedelics and we can talk

2:22

about that spoke about that quite a lot

2:24

last time. But

2:26

I want to talk about the enhanced games. Why

2:30

did you even want to start

2:32

the enhanced games? We'll come into

2:34

what it is. But like, what was the motivation to making

2:36

you want to start that? Okay,

2:39

I mean, in one sentence, by the way, because

2:41

if people now hear my answer, like what it

2:43

is, like it's like, sort of think about Olympia,

2:45

but like as our sporting event for athletics, hopefully

2:47

already next year. But

2:50

with the big differentiation that performance

2:52

enhancing drugs, people would colloquially maybe

2:54

use the word doping are

2:56

not just the loud but actually endorsed.

2:58

So we want people to use science

3:01

to really show what the human body

3:03

can achieve in in sort of peak

3:05

plus version. So all credits

3:07

to my co founder or the main founder

3:09

Aaron De Souza, he's a long term friend. He

3:12

came up with the idea, told me about it. It was

3:14

a very rough idea. He said, Why don't we do that?

3:17

Interestingly, then actually, when we dig in, it's

3:19

an idea which is floating around since decades.

3:21

So there is there is Saturday

3:24

Night Live sketches about it, like and I

3:26

met so many people who are like, actually,

3:28

I thought about it that this would be

3:30

a fun idea. We were just the

3:32

first ones who said, let's do it. Yeah. And so I

3:34

jumped on it because like Aaron said, Hey, do you want

3:36

to do it with me? And I was like, love it.

3:38

Like I love controversial stuff in a

3:40

good way. Because like, not for the

3:42

sake of being controversial, but sometimes it

3:44

shows you there is a void or need.

3:48

And we're starting to think about a cultural requirement.

3:50

Like there's obviously, you know, these riches in the

3:52

niches, as they say, but this is like a

3:54

big, just a big niche. Yeah,

3:56

and a nonsensical sort of

3:58

cultural. blockade and we had

4:01

done it already once with

4:03

psychedelics, which by the way, interestingly,

4:05

reminds me in so many ways, it's

4:07

different obviously, because the psychedelic business

4:10

we have is medical and it's sort of

4:12

a biotech business while the enhanced games is

4:14

sort of a media sporting

4:16

business. But like from the macro

4:18

perspective, like it's very similar that

4:20

when I, because people don't remember, because like most

4:23

people came to psychedelics

4:25

or came to learn about psychedelics,

4:27

even when we talked about it,

4:30

it was normally at a time when

4:32

they kind of already became mainstream. So

4:34

people think, oh, this all started like

4:36

2018, 1920. So

4:39

I started really doing podcasts because

4:41

people started being interested about psychedelics

4:44

to 1920. I had

4:46

worked on it since 2014 and

4:48

the first years, it was actually

4:50

much harsher than enhanced games now,

4:52

the first years, almost

4:54

every single person I talked about in terms of

4:56

how, because at the beginning I didn't even know

4:58

what to do. Like sort of, I

5:01

had to form then the idea to start a biotech

5:03

company, which we then did with Compass and Attire and

5:05

all of that. But like when I talk to people

5:07

even about in the early days as a founder, like

5:09

what to do, every single

5:11

person from politicians, friends

5:14

I know, to scientists, to investors

5:16

all said, don't do it. Yeah,

5:18

it's really like it's crazy how within literally

5:21

10 years, the world has changed so much

5:23

to the better. But the early days and

5:25

years were don't do it. It's going to

5:27

ruin your career. Nobody

5:29

will ever give you money for it. The

5:32

FDA will not allow this. Like it

5:34

was everybody. But even by the way,

5:36

that normally the guys who are investors were

5:38

normally very open for that kind of stuff.

5:41

Like, no, enjoy that. But none of them,

5:43

that's the sunnica thing, ever

5:45

questioned that psychedelics work. So everybody said,

5:47

look, it's very unfortunate, like, but we

5:49

have to accept it. That's

5:52

how the world is. Enjoy it in private. Like,

5:54

don't talk about it. Don't go on podcasts. Like,

5:56

just enjoy it for yourself. And I was like,

5:58

no, if everybody tells me. me they work. And

6:01

it's just these cultural or whatever, we have to

6:03

do something. So I like these kind of stuff

6:05

if it's worth doing it. So it needs to

6:08

be obviously quite a

6:10

good cause. So like something I personally think is

6:12

just wrong. And I think the

6:14

fact that psychedelics were or are still,

6:17

but we're in the end of this

6:19

era and soon be approved, but psychedelics

6:21

are still illegal. But that is wrong.

6:23

Psychedelics should be medically available. And the

6:25

same is, I think the view of

6:28

society on, let's

6:30

call it doping or performance enhancement is also

6:32

completely wrong, especially in sports. So let's change

6:34

it. Long answer. Yeah,

6:36

but very, very good answer. It's actually

6:39

one of the things with what

6:42

you do, what I notice you

6:44

gravitate towards is where the science

6:46

can prove that there's a benefit

6:49

to humanity, but the cultural narrative

6:51

in society is lagging. That's

6:53

what you feel really interesting opportunity. I would

6:56

say simplified is if you ended

6:58

the sentence obviously came later, but like in

7:00

COVID, we all had the headlines and like

7:02

follow the science or trust the science. And

7:05

I was like, okay, that's actually, it's

7:07

so simple. Yeah, that we shouldn't need to repeat

7:09

it all the time. But

7:12

if we say that we should really do

7:14

that. And if we do that, let's look

7:16

into the science, for example, of

7:19

what we call drugs as society. And

7:21

then it's my favorite part of every

7:23

podcast. And I always say like every

7:25

single person who's listening, if you want

7:27

to take one thing away, please

7:29

this part, Google the

7:31

chart of David Knott. You know, David,

7:33

like maybe he was even on the

7:36

podcast. Yeah, very famous, very qualified neuroscientist

7:38

who did a study, I think it

7:40

was 2008 on behalf of the British

7:42

government, analyzing the risk

7:44

of various legal and

7:47

illegal, what we will call recreational

7:49

drugs. And by the way, the

7:51

first amazing thing is it's so simple, but

7:53

he did is to define risk because what

7:55

I hate sometimes I sit with people at

7:57

a dinner talk about enhanced games, and they

7:59

are like, oh, this is risky. And

8:01

then my normal answer is like, define what

8:04

you mean. What is risk? And then they

8:06

can't even say that. It's just they use

8:08

the word risk without even knowing what it

8:10

means. So David did that. The only people

8:12

did this on social media, by the way. The

8:14

narratives and the sound bites, like define it. Yeah,

8:17

well, the whole narrative started to fall apart. So

8:19

David defined it because there is many

8:21

risks. There is a risk for

8:24

yourself. Can you die? Can you

8:26

get disabled? Can you cause an accident? There

8:28

is risk you inflict to others,

8:30

like drunk drivers killing somebody, whatever.

8:33

And the outcome was when you Google that, and there is

8:35

a whole book about it. I will read it, but the

8:37

chart says it all. The number

8:40

one risky drug in

8:42

these holistic risk assessment is

8:44

actually alcohol, closely followed by heroin, which

8:46

is the second one, but just to

8:48

show how bad alcohol is. We're actually

8:50

going down the path of heroin later.

8:52

So I was telling you, go through

8:54

the airport next time. And then whenever

8:56

you read a sign or alcohol sold

8:58

or whatever, or alcohol with

9:01

discount or whatever, just think heroin instead of

9:03

alcohol, and then you know how absurd society

9:05

is. Well, if you've ever seen how alcohol

9:07

was made, it's literally poison. It's literally creating

9:10

poison. So you don't have to get pious

9:12

about it, but you're completely right, have

9:14

a consistent rule. Yeah, so and then because

9:16

on the other side of the chart, you

9:19

find A psychedelics with practically no risk, and

9:21

you also find anabolic steroids, one of the most,

9:24

not only one, but on the most commonly

9:26

used performance enhancing drugs. Yeah.

9:29

So I was jokingly saying some years ago,

9:31

we just go through all of these on the right

9:33

side and bring them back because

9:35

they deserve to be back. If alcohol is

9:37

there, they don't even have a risk if you do it

9:40

properly. Anyway. So with the enhanced

9:42

games, so take us through the premise. And

9:45

what I'd like to know is then what is on

9:47

the cards and what's off the cards in terms of

9:49

what people can and can't take. And is that

9:52

different country by country? Yes,

9:54

so it's OK. So we got to

9:56

do it once a year. So again,

9:58

I think I always don't want to compare. To the

10:00

Olympics because over time we want to be

10:02

something different about away. Also like there will

10:04

be better way I would love the Olympics

10:06

to succeed and go on. To.

10:09

Be clean because one sentence that we

10:11

before. The unfortunate thing is

10:13

like or the Olympics themselves are

10:15

actually Wada up the over the

10:17

international doping agency. They did a

10:19

study in two thousand and Eleven

10:21

where they asked athletes at an

10:24

event randomize says i think it's

10:26

actually worse was I don't think

10:28

every as as he trusted them.

10:30

but they did a study outsourced

10:32

randomized where they asked the athletes

10:34

if they had taken performance enhancing

10:36

drugs the last twelve months and

10:38

forty four percent. Of

10:41

official. Olympians

10:43

said guess. So

10:45

again, I believe they didn't fully trust

10:47

Martha so maybe it's even more than

10:49

forty who possess. But even to forty

10:51

four percent is a crazy high number.

10:53

That means round about half of what

10:55

Olympian aesthetes seat which makes you look

10:57

pig deeps. Aerobics deeply flawed like and

11:00

to be was they are you ensure

11:02

the Olympics not at all as he.

11:04

It's a great events but if you

11:06

wanna be a clean. Doping.

11:08

For you and which has a com is a

11:10

great premise by the way I don't see this

11:12

is also great business models but then you have

11:15

to make sure that you really to the and

11:17

because at the moment since I know that and

11:19

watching it ever that's how do I know that

11:21

the one who wins is really the best? Well

11:23

maybe the second one is the best one to

11:25

the honest morning and the gold medal when always

11:27

teeth and get away with it so it's completely

11:29

distorted and. As he takes to

11:31

hold fire way soaps. My vision is

11:33

that in some years we have to

11:35

established events the Olympics every four years

11:38

to clean once they are the natural

11:40

once and then we have enhanced games

11:42

who celebrate scientific progress of or two

11:44

every year. We gonna start with the

11:46

ten most common disciplines like says he

11:48

meets Iran hundred be to swim. Ah,

11:51

i'm weightless things with access to your leaving

11:53

cycling saying that they're already old cycling got

11:55

no oh it was so we just put

11:57

away cmos where we get them most athletes

12:00

and it comes to that second, the feedback

12:02

of athletes is insanely positive. Yeah. So but

12:04

we want to focus at the beginning, we

12:06

don't want to do niche stuff, the 10

12:08

top categories.

12:12

And then yes, we do have actually rules, it's

12:14

not everything goes or anything goes how you say,

12:17

it's like we have three rules. The one is like, it,

12:20

whatever you take has to

12:22

be allowed medically in

12:24

the country you take it. Yeah,

12:27

so interestingly, we'll give advantages to

12:29

some country, national,

12:31

well, brothers, right? So yes, but we're not

12:33

a country,

12:38

we're not going to take the country

12:40

organization of the Olympics. So so we

12:42

just want to have in every

12:44

discipline, the eight to 10 best athletes

12:46

who qualify. So it could well be

12:48

that it's for Americans in in our

12:50

sort of games for whatever, it's because

12:52

it's open qualification globally. But

12:55

yes, what will be because indeed, because

12:58

we set the limit of medically

13:01

approved substances, that

13:04

maybe athletes say, Oh,

13:06

in the preparations for the enhanced games, I'm

13:08

going to move to North Korea. Well, no, by

13:10

the way, they don't make it fine. Because like,

13:13

they are actually like India, like, but like Middle

13:15

East, like, yeah, actually, even some countries in Europe

13:17

have it's really, it's not like that. Just because

13:19

people don't think it's the crazy kind of stuff.

13:21

Like it's better way, the crazy countries took a

13:24

lot of things away. We talk about that as

13:26

well. How bad it is in the US. Where's

13:28

actually the most? That's actually a really interesting point

13:30

right then. Yeah. So obviously, I did make

13:32

a broad joke. But like, so what do

13:34

we find is Europe more lacks less lack?

13:37

No, Europe, America, Europe is unfortunately has a

13:39

tendency in generally, by the way, to not

13:42

just follow in many things,

13:44

the insanity of the US, but make it

13:46

worse. Yeah, but I can go regulations and

13:48

anything that's a bad president and the Europeans

13:50

are like, you know what, we can make

13:52

it even worse. Yeah, it can be even

13:54

Doma or even, yeah, which is sad. And

13:56

the worst is this country. Yeah, but I

13:58

don't think politics too much. But,

14:01

and by the way, it's all crazy. I'll give you one

14:03

example. It's the

14:05

same like psychedelics, which also shows how

14:07

not just,

14:09

let's forget about sports for a moment,

14:12

how hurtful and how bad and

14:17

not thought through decisions in politics can

14:19

be. Like, you know the story, we

14:21

talked about it last time, why psychedelics

14:23

became illegal. It's not because they have

14:25

any risk or whatever. It was a

14:27

pure political scam because the

14:29

Nixon government, so what happened is psychedelics

14:32

were medically used. It's important because I

14:34

wanna make them, for everybody who hasn't

14:36

heard about it, I don't wanna make

14:38

psychedelics consumer legal like cannabis. Yeah, it's

14:40

not recreation. Yeah, because I deeply believe

14:42

these are very good but very strong

14:44

substances who should be done with a

14:47

therapist or a doctor under

14:49

clinical supervision. So we don't even wanna

14:51

make them prescription legal. What we are

14:53

doing is in the future, hopefully starting

14:55

next year already with psilocybin, I

14:58

think we did in magic mushrooms, you can go to

15:00

your doctor but you have to

15:02

take it with the doctor together and then go home.

15:04

So that was actually

15:06

a case in the 50s and 60s

15:09

for some of these substances. So the

15:11

right thing. And then the hippies technically

15:13

did it illegally because they did it outside of

15:15

the clinical system. But to be fair, if somebody

15:18

would ask me today on a

15:20

weekend show like, and it's a medical answer,

15:22

not a legal answer, and let's assume in

15:24

a country where both is possible, should I

15:26

take a little bit of ketamine or

15:29

should I take a little bit of alcohol? I

15:31

would say take the ketamine, it's factically healthier. But

15:33

like, so the hippies did the good stuff and

15:35

nobody cared by the way, because it was the

15:37

good stuff. And you can totally see where actually

15:40

all the positivity of the hippie movement came from,

15:42

love, peace, happiness. And then they

15:44

became political, went against the Vietnam War.

15:47

And the Nixon government really hired, I'm

15:49

about to release a documentary where we

15:51

talk with people who did it, the

15:53

bad side, hired spin

15:55

doctors and said, because

15:57

the hippies were so lovable, like the population.

16:00

was obviously siding with the hippies because

16:02

like, oh, uncultural music was going that

16:04

way as well. Yeah, what is to

16:06

not like about that movement? And they

16:08

were like, how can we really discredit

16:10

that actually very likable movement? And

16:13

then some bad

16:16

genius had the

16:18

idea to say, let's just make it

16:20

up and say psychedelics make you crazy

16:22

because you must be crazy if

16:24

you're against our beloved President Nixon. And

16:27

as crazy as it sounds, that

16:29

worked. They hired scientists who feel

16:32

deeply sorry. We interviewed some of

16:34

them who falsified studies. There was

16:36

a whole dark PR machine starting

16:39

with the whole might of the government in times where

16:41

we didn't have social media. I think it wouldn't work

16:43

today. And all of

16:45

these very valuable drugs became illegal.

16:48

So think about it. Well, and

16:50

actually there's even more pertinent

16:53

point to make which is for a lot

16:55

of people who take psychedelics, the

16:58

first time you take it,

17:00

ideally is pure free from

17:03

prejudice or ideas that you

17:05

might have, is this gonna be good for me?

17:07

Am I gonna go crazy? Anzieties, all these pre-thoughts.

17:10

And the problem with that PR narrative

17:12

and stuff is it actually starts to

17:14

infect the innocent mind to

17:16

give you a pejorative feeling

17:18

going into the psychedelics as your first

17:20

time, which is therefore way more likely

17:23

to make you actually have that versus

17:25

your in the hippie movement where that

17:27

maybe expected the best because peace, expect

17:29

love and is exactly what happens to

17:31

you. So in a really insidious way,

17:33

it's even worse than that. Yeah, and

17:35

think about it, by the way, we

17:37

should almost make people liable for that.

17:40

If you say like, because there is

17:42

nothing else for mental health. So

17:44

we just, or we the government or

17:46

the time took away a

17:50

functioning medicine or group of

17:52

therapeutics against depression, anxiety, addiction.

17:54

Think about how many people

17:56

most likely have died of

17:59

suicide. of whatever and how

18:01

many people even more had, might

18:04

not be, might have killed themselves, but

18:06

like maybe had a miserable life. This

18:08

is, we're talking about millions and millions

18:10

of people who for

18:13

where the government stole a very

18:17

functioning therapeutic. It's actually, if you think it

18:19

through, it's insane and all these people should

18:21

go to jail or should be

18:24

made responsible for, again, this is equally,

18:26

imagine tomorrow a crazy politician comes

18:28

and says, you know what, for

18:31

zero reason, I'm going to take away chemotherapy.

18:33

I mean, all the cancer patients, they want

18:36

the fuck, yeah. But like in mental health,

18:38

because of all these dark PI did work.

18:40

Why I'm telling the long story because it's

18:42

exactly what reminds me what has

18:44

happened. And by the way, I

18:47

learned about it. It's not that I knew it.

18:49

So very interesting about what we call doping, because

18:51

let's take the most sort of,

18:55

how is it prevalent or the most important

18:57

group, there's obviously much more substances, but

18:59

it was what you call anabolic steroids.

19:04

It's almost like a word you're like, feel bad

19:06

saying it. Yeah. But all these anabolic steroids, by

19:08

the way, it's a category. Like there are some

19:10

who have side effects worse, some who have actually

19:13

very little side effects, but everything in life is

19:15

side effects. But all of

19:17

these anabolic steroids, I had a great quote on that yesterday,

19:19

by the way, sorry to interrupt, which was just two types

19:22

of drugs in the world. Those are side effects and plasifas.

19:25

Exactly. Drink water and even water, I

19:27

think if you drink 10 liters, you

19:29

want to have some side effects. Yeah.

19:31

So, but the good anabolic steroids were

19:33

medications. Yeah. By the way, forget about

19:35

sports that there is an

19:38

unfortunately, like it's like, don't come up with

19:40

a scientific name now, but there is

19:42

this one anabolic steroid, which kind of cures

19:45

or at least alleviates osteoporosis

19:49

in older women. Yeah. But it is

19:51

not doping. It's little doses, but if

19:53

you think about Having osteoporosis, I thought about

19:56

my mom, she don't have it, but like if she would get

19:58

it, I would be annoyed because there is nothing. Is

20:00

it a calcium stuff? and it was

20:02

a what the fuck? There was a

20:04

medication? Which. Practically cured

20:06

it or made it at least

20:08

much better. And

20:10

yes, that same meditation. In

20:13

a doses of Thirty. x. A

20:15

sports guy can use so and then

20:17

because the media and crazy and positions

20:19

when crazy they would like to. Let's

20:22

take off the market. Dot. You could

20:24

have said listen allowed for sports guys you could

20:26

a said let's make it more restricted but

20:28

taking it away and saying i don't care about

20:30

the millions of women. Who

20:33

suffer from osteoporosis is a crime.

20:35

thou. Because you do deprives people

20:37

from a functioning. Therapeutic.

20:40

Without giving them a new one. South.

20:42

But away the same mistake guy to sort

20:44

to front about it would hazard like and

20:46

be tried. It is like. One. Of

20:48

the most good use our of reviews

20:50

cases for Allah Steve was like partisan.

20:53

says. What? Yeah. And. The

20:55

to it away I was it and nobody

20:57

of an easy what was it And provide

21:00

an alternative So you you are. You condemn

21:02

millions of participations for having no medication because

21:04

Nixon wanted to a ah to have an

21:06

argument he sink about how basket is a

21:08

be reading audible like is like south and

21:11

and again and about agree hear about Reagan

21:13

Also about is over like by the old

21:15

is A is all like these weird like.

21:18

Media. Goes crazy politicians were so they act

21:20

would like but then and then they tell us

21:23

that the whole thing and as and and know

21:25

then they wonder why is. When they

21:27

really wanna be. I actually don't have been

21:29

criticized him for that. But when they really

21:31

try to follow the science, people don't trust

21:34

them because like like for decades, you fooled

21:36

us, you you you lie. You don't follow

21:38

the science, You follow your personal political gains.

21:41

Yeah, and now suddenly were like of one

21:43

other side is a self exactly when it's

21:45

convenient for use Macys like follow the signs

21:47

all the time. Yeah, and that's also by

21:50

the way part of full of the science

21:52

because that also was abused Actually because full

21:54

of a science. Was. Was.

21:57

Was used or system shutdown.

22:00

people, for example, who criticized the COVID

22:02

vaccines. And by the way, many of

22:04

them were right, because the right answer

22:06

of science is, first of all, very

22:08

often we really don't know everything. Already

22:11

to suggest to the people

22:14

we know everything is

22:16

already again a lie again, because you don't.

22:19

And second, also

22:21

the right answer, especially in biotech

22:23

sciences, again, everything has upsides and

22:25

downsides. And it should be that

22:28

we as much transparent as possible

22:30

tell people about that. And

22:32

then we should all make an

22:34

informed decision ourselves. By

22:37

the way, people can either for personal

22:40

subjective or objective reasons, can make different

22:42

decisions. I always tell like, when people

22:44

say, oh, are you completely against alcohol?

22:46

No, I'm using it because

22:48

I think people don't understand and were

22:51

never told in school or wherever we

22:53

should, how bad alcohol is.

22:56

I never do it. But

22:58

I can totally say if somebody says, then

23:01

look, I know how bad it is. And I

23:03

consciously say, but once a month, it gives me

23:05

joy. I'm like, go ahead, this is great. But

23:07

you know, at least what is the trade you're

23:09

doing the same, like, yeah, if somebody did or

23:12

did not take the COVID vaccine and was doing

23:14

it based on informed basis, it's totally their decision.

23:16

Yeah. So I think we should sort

23:18

of follow the science, which means let's

23:21

gather as much evidence as we can.

23:23

It will never be enough, by the

23:25

way, because there is always there is

23:27

also always the outlier, which you saw,

23:29

obviously, with the COVID vaccine, I personally

23:31

think it was the right thing to

23:33

do. But it's obvious if you rush

23:37

medication, yeah, because we had an urgency, and

23:39

you give it hundreds of millions of people,

23:41

there will be outlier negative cases. And they

23:43

should have said that they shouldn't have pretended

23:46

that follow the science means that completely

23:49

safe. But I think net for most

23:51

people, it was the right thing to do. But

23:53

if you're a very young person, you might have said,

23:55

I don't want to do it, because I need to

23:57

your decision. Yeah. And the same we should though apply.

24:00

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24:02

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24:04

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show notes. Coming

26:15

back to enhanced games, talk me through

26:18

the business model. So I'm familiar with

26:20

the other businesses. I'd

26:22

like, I understand how a lot of them work.

26:24

There's enhanced games being like media, like you say.

26:26

So how does that work as a business model?

26:29

How have you set it up for investment?

26:32

What does it look like when it grows? Well,

26:34

the typical sporting event, where do you make money?

26:36

The one is like, you

26:38

make money from sponsoring. So

26:41

corporate sponsors in any form, logo,

26:43

whatever. So the second, you're

26:45

looking forward to KPMG, PWC. So

26:48

the crazy thing is we

26:51

did not expect so

26:53

many positive interests from the corporate side. We

26:55

get bombarded with requests,

26:58

like for sponsoring.

27:01

Then the second big thing, it's actually the biggest one

27:03

is media rights, TV,

27:05

but social media, like streaming

27:07

rights, whatever. And

27:10

then you have also all obviously

27:12

ticket sales and stuff like

27:14

that. And in anything I would have said, we

27:17

were very conservative and expected it

27:19

that we have some years to

27:21

sort of promote

27:23

it. And it's completely the opposite. Like

27:25

people are inbounding us like crazy, like

27:27

from corporates, you would not expect it,

27:31

to media rights buyers. And

27:33

we haven't even started to properly do the

27:35

auction for the media rights.

27:37

And then you also have actually cities inbounding

27:39

us because they wanna pay us to do

27:41

it in their city because like for

27:44

the Olympics or for anything of these things, the governments

27:46

and the host cities pay a lot of money because

27:48

it's attracting people, whatever. So where is your first one

27:50

meant to be? We just get

27:53

going through all the offers. Like we have,

27:55

yeah. Oh, that's exciting. But

27:57

we're gonna decide the next month because we also, to

28:00

say too much because in terms of

28:02

I think it's a unique business but the

28:05

premise that performance enhancing drugs are

28:07

allowed is just one

28:09

of many things we want to change about sports.

28:11

Let's leave it there. It's obviously the one people

28:13

want to talk about. That's why I'm here and

28:15

it's getting the attention. But we were

28:17

like, you know what, when we're already on it,

28:21

let's say vaguely the way we consume,

28:24

we watch sports, has

28:27

not changed. It's still the same and

28:29

we have actually some very cool ideas

28:32

additionally to performance enhancing drugs allowed which

28:35

gonna blow people away. But business model

28:37

wise, it's more like something like the

28:39

Olympics than it is like the NFL

28:41

for example, we have licenses, different teams.

28:43

Yeah, so it's more like the Olympics

28:45

or like boxing or whatever, event driven.

28:48

Yeah. Okay. And if

28:50

you can go back because always when I start, like

28:52

off, sorry for that, like because you ask like

28:54

what are the rules? So I said rule

28:56

number one is because it's important because we're

28:58

again, we're not loose and health

29:01

is the number one priority. Meaning I can't do

29:03

biotech and then do something reckless. I don't want

29:05

to because I want people to be happy and

29:07

healthy. Yeah, so I define risk at the end

29:09

of the day, right? That comes back to the

29:11

same point. So but our rules are you have

29:13

to take medically approved drugs because why again? Because

29:16

then you know upside and

29:18

downside. And they have sometimes

29:20

downsides, but you know it and you

29:22

can make the conscious decision. Yeah. By

29:25

the way, for example, that means because people

29:27

always ask Crystal Math wouldn't be allowed because

29:30

there was just a headline in Germany that

29:32

a volleyball player did Crystal Math as doping.

29:34

No, wouldn't be allowed because A, you

29:37

wouldn't get a clean version of it because that's

29:39

already by the way, think about like that at

29:41

the moment because doping is

29:44

not at least from

29:46

the IOC perspective, not allowed. They all do it

29:48

in the shadows, but that is already bad because

29:50

they order it on some websites. They don't even

29:52

know what they get. Yeah. So

29:54

in our case, they take whatever in their

29:57

country is medically available in the pharmacy. You

29:59

get pure. stuff and you know what you take

30:01

because it's a medicine. Second, you have

30:03

to have a doctor and

30:06

that doctor has to come out

30:08

publicly and say, I'm the engineer.

30:10

It's a little bit like a Formula One. You're

30:12

going to have a chief engineer. He needs to

30:14

be on your website and he needs to take

30:17

responsibility. So you need to find somebody who's with

30:19

you as your doctor, as any doctor should, is

30:21

saying, look, that's the right way to do

30:24

it. If you want to go crazy as

30:26

an athlete and want to take 10x what

30:28

you should, this doctor will say, no, not

30:30

on my watch because my reputation, yeah, I'm

30:32

publicly responsible for

30:34

that. And then the third rule

30:36

is you cannot have bad side

30:38

effects. What does it mean? Like,

30:40

let's take anabolic steroids, the

30:42

most common side effect, if you

30:45

do them wrong, that's the point,

30:48

is yes, if you do

30:50

a lot of them, you could get a

30:52

heart failure, heart problem. Yeah. But it already

30:54

means you do them wrong because like it's

30:57

a question mainly of quantity. Yeah.

31:00

Again, the woman who actually used

31:02

a certain anabolic steroid for

31:04

a superosis, she didn't get a heart problem

31:06

because she takes a little bit. If somebody

31:08

decides, you know what, I just have three

31:10

months and I try to jagged and

31:12

do 30 times as much as I should,

31:15

there will be a problem. By the way, if you drink

31:17

30 watts, her shots, you're dead. Yeah. There's always like, yeah,

31:19

it's not just the substance in itself,

31:21

but it's like, it's dosing. So, if

31:24

you do that, you're disqualified. And by the way, it's

31:26

so easy to measure. We're going

31:28

to do a full health checkup, including

31:31

a full heart checkup. By

31:33

the way, we're going to do it. Not like what the

31:35

IOC does who says, oh, you can do it at home

31:37

and send us the documents. We do it on site, which

31:40

practically makes that the safest games ever.

31:42

Because if somebody sort

31:44

of violated our rules and took too much and

31:46

has a heart problem, he or she

31:49

is not going to start. Yeah. And that sets

31:51

also a limit or

31:53

kind of is incentivizing people to do it

31:55

properly because otherwise everything was for nothing. So,

31:57

these are the three rules. We're

32:00

for doctor and

32:02

you can't have that effect. So you've been talking quite

32:04

a lot about, you know, the things that could change

32:06

about sports, the things that are missing that we can

32:09

maybe reflect on and do something a bit different. But

32:12

what are the fundamentals that just shouldn't change? What

32:14

is actually going so right that you would never

32:16

see a need to touch? I

32:20

would say this may be,

32:22

it's half the answer. Half the answer is

32:24

like it should never be sports, should never

32:27

be any health risk for

32:29

any participant. I would say that for high school

32:31

sports, like then. So which by the way, already

32:33

is this is what I believe

32:35

because but I would say, is this actually

32:37

the right answer? Because

32:39

like we have many sports, which I

32:41

would never do myself because they are

32:44

very risky. By the way, like

32:46

American football, if you play rugby, American football, forget

32:49

about performance enhancement. The sport itself

32:52

is utterly dangerous, like

32:54

a brain health. Exactly. Think

32:56

about all of them. Should we say no, this is

32:58

illegal? No, but we should talk more about it because

33:00

I don't think all athletes know that. Again, it's always

33:02

my point comes always back. So but I would have

33:04

said, I don't let's if I

33:06

give you the answer about what we will do

33:09

ever as a pyro, not just in

33:11

Hans game, I don't want to put

33:13

on things which put people at risk.

33:16

It wouldn't be what I want to do. Although

33:18

there are sporting events out

33:21

there, approved ones, normal ones who put

33:23

people at risk. So on

33:25

more at risk, but you need to use it in soccer, you

33:27

can break your leg. It's like risk is such a fickle thing,

33:29

by the way. And again, as long as

33:31

you got to find it, once again comes back to that.

33:33

But otherwise, I think sports should

33:35

be fun. And hence

33:37

they can be defined because the way and there

33:40

is no one way or the other.

33:42

Again, I don't want to change the

33:44

Olympics. They should be just clean

33:47

ones. And I don't want to

33:49

do something new. And people can decide what we're watching. At

33:51

the end, the fewer will decide. And I can see actually,

33:53

in some years, we were bigger than the Olympics in terms

33:56

of fans, whatever. It's just more exciting.

34:00

to sports which would never change because like

34:02

at the end sports are fun and like

34:04

people define what fun is. By the

34:06

way, the Olympics in the old days were

34:09

supernhats for their times because people are like,

34:11

oh, the Olympics should be clean. I was

34:13

like, by the way, it's not even historically

34:16

correct. Like the original Olympics, everything

34:18

was allowed. Like there was just not a

34:20

lot of things you could do because they

34:22

didn't have so much medicine, but they took

34:25

a lot of actually poisonous stuff because it

34:27

numbed them. And for a lot of things

34:29

like, yeah, when you have an injury and

34:31

you just don't feel it, you go on

34:33

and stuff like that. So they took bull

34:35

testicles because they already knew this is kind of

34:38

giving you whatever an energy

34:40

kick. Yeah. So they

34:42

tried whatever they could at the time. So it

34:44

was actually the real Olympics were the enhanced games.

34:47

Okay. Moving on, speaking

34:49

about enhanced light styles. You

34:52

do quite a lot of things. So you've got the enhanced

34:54

games. You've got Atai and

34:57

Compass pathways. Traditionally

35:01

obviously biotech entrepreneur,

35:04

big investor, and quite

35:06

a lot of other things as well, right? Yeah. The

35:09

four things we're doing very simply said is biotech

35:12

with a focus, not solely, but a focus

35:14

on mental health and the brain and

35:18

longevity. Then we have a very big

35:21

and happy because it's going well, like crypto

35:23

pocket. I'm a huge

35:25

believer in Bitcoin and

35:28

especially Bitcoin related infrastructure companies

35:30

like Bitcoin mining, but also

35:32

that it's morphing into AI

35:34

data centers, exchanges whatsoever. Then we

35:37

have a pocket called FutureTech like SpaceTech,

35:39

AI, Noble Foods. It's a little

35:41

bit of catch all because I'm always so broadly

35:44

interested. And then actually my kind of favorite

35:46

one lately where sports is in it as

35:48

well is sort of the antidote

35:50

to all of the tech and biotech is

35:53

physical like experiences. We call

35:56

it experiences, leisure and happiness

35:58

because my big. is

36:00

that over the next 10

36:02

years, humans will gradually work

36:04

less and less in average

36:06

because of mainly AI, robotics

36:08

and all the other innovation.

36:12

And we need to think, by the way, as

36:14

society, but it's also a big business, what are

36:16

people doing in that free time? And

36:18

I also believe, side note, that we're gonna have more

36:20

or less the same sort

36:23

of purchasing power because otherwise society will

36:26

fall apart. So we invest

36:28

a lot in content production, in

36:31

sports like the enhanced games, we

36:34

own the largest life entertainment in business and

36:36

in Europe which does concerts and stuff like

36:38

that. We own a hotel brand both

36:41

real estate and the brand. So all of

36:43

that stuff which helps practically people where

36:45

to spend your free time. Okay,

36:48

so this was all coming down to and

36:50

we'll let it go micro and then back

36:52

up again. Talking about a typical day in

36:55

your life, I'm fascinated and I'd like to

36:57

know what then much broader a typical

37:00

month might look like. Well at the moment

37:02

I'm very proud to say hopefully this stays

37:04

that way because I'm really disciplined. I'm side

37:06

note, I always want to live companies and

37:08

by the way we do two things. We

37:11

invest in companies so we have our venture

37:13

sort of business and then always when we

37:15

have an original idea which

37:17

we can't invest in because it's not there, then

37:19

we started ourselves. So typically original ideas are a

37:22

tie and compass because psychedelics were not there

37:24

and I'm always super proud like

37:26

we were the first ones who said make it

37:28

medically abandoned. We took it but like we were

37:30

the ones that let's try it and make it

37:32

medically used. The same for longevity, we were one

37:35

of the first ones really doing biotech

37:37

companies not just saying longevity means you do an

37:39

ice bath but like really

37:42

trying to find new medical drugs to

37:44

push life expectancy and health span but

37:47

also the enhanced games. So these are things we start ourselves.

37:49

So I always

37:51

want to really, either the

37:54

original ideas come from my own

37:57

experience of psychedelics. I did have a psychedelic

37:59

trip. We talked about it last

38:01

time in 2014 and then sort of

38:04

started thinking about it or enhanced

38:06

games because the idea came from Aaron.

38:09

But I was like, I want to feel

38:12

what enhancement is. I just want to talk about it

38:14

scientifically. By the way, it's one of the weird things

38:16

I met too many scientists who, even scientists

38:20

who work with psychedelics who hadn't tried it. I

38:23

was like, why not? If you know everything about it, at

38:25

least give it a try. You should know. And

38:28

so I would at least that person, if I

38:30

talk about something, if I promote something, if I

38:32

start a company about something, I want to do

38:35

it. So I'm actually at the moment going

38:38

through the sort of kind of program

38:40

both substance wise and training wise, what

38:43

an Olympian athlete would do who wants to

38:45

be enhanced. Okay, fascinating. So in your day,

38:47

like I'm training. First of all, by the

38:49

way, it's not just the stuff. It's

38:52

a mix of supplements or

38:55

of performance enhancing substances combined

38:58

with training. You can't get it for free.

39:00

Like you need to train and a little

39:02

bit as a steroids and don't train. Nothing,

39:06

but you wouldn't use it really. It wouldn't

39:08

be worse. Yeah, but like you just spend

39:10

nothing wasted. Like it's a little bit

39:12

like and again, they can have minor side effects. Like

39:14

why would you do it then? Yeah. So so but

39:17

by the way, it's very important because people say you

39:20

get it for free. No, no, you have to be

39:22

super disciplined. So so I'm training every single day. I

39:26

feel literally 10, 15

39:29

years younger and you really know it. It's small

39:31

things. You don't get tired. You don't have soreness

39:33

really a little bit. So you know you did

39:35

something, but like the next day it's already gone

39:37

again. Like and then I remembered, wow, this this

39:40

was training in my 20s. Like that's how it felt

39:42

like you wake up in the morning. It makes me

39:44

sound so old, but like since some years you wake

39:46

up in the morning, you look at this list, not

39:49

like now it's all gone. Like it feels like I'm

39:51

in my 20s again. Yeah. So just to pick up

39:53

on that point, so actually the thing that you've noticed

39:55

from the steroids particularly is actually rate of recovery and

39:58

then rate of recovery means that you. can work

40:00

out with the same intensity the next day, which

40:02

if you were disciplined enough and this was sensible,

40:04

I don't know. Or one point. If

40:06

you could do seven days a week, you're going to get results faster

40:09

than someone who can do it three days a week. Exactly. It's

40:11

already one point. Yeah. Okay. So

40:14

yeah, so that is coming to you a question of how my day looks

40:16

like at the moment. I'm starting it with sports every

40:19

single day. By the way, I... What

40:22

does that mean? Literally take us through... What do you do?

40:24

You wake up at what time and then you do what? Well,

40:26

I'm not waking up with an alarm clock. That's one

40:28

of the big luxury things in my life because I

40:30

think you sleep is so important. So but I normally

40:32

wake up between eight and nine and then I go

40:34

with my trainer to the

40:36

gym. So I

40:38

decided not because by the way, I'm holding back

40:40

because you know, I'm very straightforward. So I

40:43

decided not to say the details what I'm taking,

40:45

not because I'm shy, but because

40:48

I want to tell people just don't copy

40:50

me because your body might be completely different

40:52

than my body. And I don't

40:54

want people to say, oh, just writing it down what

40:56

Christian is taking. And then I'm going and

40:59

taking the same and it might be the wrong thing for that

41:01

person. So I want people to go to the

41:03

doctor and say, look, what do you want to do? By

41:05

the way, the answer is also different. It

41:08

was very interesting to see if you go to

41:10

performance enhancing doctors

41:12

and say because they're going to ask you what you

41:14

want to achieve. Is it the looks? By the way,

41:16

in my case, it's the looks. I'm very bad. I

41:18

mean, I was like, look, I don't need to... We're

41:20

not going to go into the games or whatever. Because

41:22

by the way, already because like, because people ask that,

41:24

do you want to compete? And I was like, no,

41:26

because like the other guys in the games are professional

41:28

athletes and then they take

41:30

performance and answer. So I can't compete with them. But like,

41:32

so for me, it was to feel what it does. But

41:35

then I decided let's optimize the looks. Yeah.

41:38

So optimizing for aesthetics, which is different for optimizing

41:40

for strength. For strength or for endurance or whatever

41:42

people want to do. Yeah. Then

41:44

it's different from your age. It's different from which

41:47

kind of testosterone you already have. Like, yeah. And

41:49

all of that. So you need a doctor.

41:51

It's a little bit like a menu and you need to be

41:53

honest to a doctor because like he can just like, yeah,

41:55

but it's different if you're a swimmer or if you're

41:57

a runner or if you're a weightlifter. So

42:00

I'm doing practically, my doctor's always chucking

42:02

me saying that, but I'm doing the

42:05

men's health cover workout. Because that's what

42:07

you wanna, let's optimize the

42:09

looks and there is a whole

42:11

stack, which is very, the basics you can

42:13

say is testosterone. Anabolic steroids

42:15

are just versions, synthetic versions of

42:17

testosterone with nuances, and then

42:19

you have human growth hormones. Like for that sort

42:21

of, let's call it

42:23

optic stack. Like you would take different things if you're

42:26

a cyclist or if you're like a swimmer

42:28

or at least additional one. And

42:30

you talked about some of the times in

42:32

your life where

42:34

things don't quite go so well, it's because you rushed into them. And

42:37

obviously as an entrepreneur, you've had a lot of

42:39

success so far in your life as well. I'm

42:42

sure plenty of failures, we've talked about them before,

42:45

but the reality is at some

42:48

point, do you

42:51

feel like you get addicted to the success and

42:53

you are struggling to sort of identify

42:56

what enough looks like? So you're always kind

42:58

of like trying to identify what the next

43:00

opportunity looks like. Cause at what point do

43:03

you have too many things to be able

43:05

to enjoy the presence

43:08

of each thing? Does that sort of make sense? No, no, 100%. Cause

43:12

you're an opportunistic person. That's the thing that

43:14

I like about you. You spot opportunities, you

43:16

go after them, you invest deep in them

43:18

as well. So there's a lot of like

43:20

financial upside and downside into these things. You

43:22

make big bets into things, but

43:26

that also creates like a responsibility

43:28

to have a lot of care

43:30

and attention to these things. So how spread can a person

43:32

get and do it well? Yes, the

43:35

big question of my life. It's really like I

43:37

have no answer because like I'm not struggling, but

43:39

I'm thinking about it mutually set literally every single

43:42

day, because like I have always more ideas than

43:44

time, which is that again, I think net, I'm

43:46

very lucky because I know many people have no

43:48

ideas and a lot of time and a board,

43:51

literally I have too many ideas. So

43:53

what I tried and again, it's never

43:56

perfect because like, but it's a work

43:58

in progress. an organization.

44:00

So by the way, it's because it's not a,

44:03

it's not a woman show. People always see me

44:05

and I want to say that for portfolio companies

44:07

that where I'm always emphasizing enhanced games is Aaron's

44:09

idea. Yeah. A tire have

44:11

an amazing team like for everything like

44:14

people see me, but I'm not the

44:16

one who's sort of running all these

44:18

companies. So these companies need a face

44:20

to them anyway. Yeah. So,

44:22

so, yeah, we just say it because we live in a

44:24

time where like, oh my God, Christian is doing that all

44:26

himself. Like, I'm, yeah. So, so I'm the representative for some

44:29

of these ideas, but I'm not the

44:31

only guy. So I already had Pyron.

44:33

So in my investment firm, yeah, we

44:35

have around 50 people, five zero, yeah,

44:37

who are taking care of things with

44:39

me together with my input, whatever. And

44:41

sort of, I think we're a well-managed

44:43

shop. And one of the

44:46

duties of my colleagues is to make sure

44:48

that the ideas Christian have. Yeah. And

44:50

his, his are managed and my time is managed

44:52

and sort of, yeah, that is still a constant

44:55

struggle because I have even more ideas and then

44:57

I need to discuss with my colleagues and I'm

44:59

very persuasive. Yeah. But it's a

45:01

work in progress and I think we're

45:03

sort of getting the balance. Yeah. How

45:05

do you find people to work with that

45:08

are able to not

45:11

dampen your enthusiasm and

45:14

that kind of energy and attitude you have, but are

45:16

definitely able to call you up on your bullshit and

45:18

remind you that, no, actually Christian, I love that you're

45:20

passionate, but this is actually a bad idea and you

45:23

don't have time. Like is there a

45:25

certain type of person at this point in your career

45:27

that you're like, that's the type of person I like

45:29

to hire? Well,

45:33

you need different types and this is a simple idea

45:35

answer, but I know I think one and again, some

45:37

things I'm always worried that they sound like a sound

45:41

bite or a phrase, but like I

45:43

think I'm really like

45:46

is the wrong word. Nobody likes it. But like,

45:48

I think I really can deal well with critique

45:50

and pushback because I appreciate it. That

45:52

is maybe the right English word because like I

45:55

and I hopefully I give my colleagues That

45:57

impression and also like I think they know.

46:00

Will be like The ones I like the most or

46:02

like or like really appreciate the most are actually the

46:04

ones who tell me. Sometimes. What

46:06

I don't want to he area in a nice

46:08

way of are you can I get So that

46:10

critique is like not a bad thing and like

46:12

now so I try not to become because like

46:14

I definitely realize. And. Hopefully not so

46:17

much within a pyro, but in my

46:19

life that the more successful. I

46:21

got the less people tell me what

46:23

they really think which is simple but

46:25

is really hard to manage because like

46:27

I don't or it makes people very

46:30

boring Yazidis I think people don't even

46:32

realize if they behave. Towards.

46:34

People they when I don't know impress become

46:36

friends with. That way that they become very

46:38

boring and actually. Said. At

46:41

least. People. Who. Successful.

46:43

People you wanna be friends with them might be

46:45

the humane ecstasy Adam when he opinion but then

46:47

be really more be friends with them. But like

46:49

I would say, it's hopefully people realize not just

46:52

inside appearances but around me that you become friends

46:54

with me or whatever we more interesting for me

46:56

to spend time with you if you have your

46:58

own opinion and not just. Telling.

47:00

Me What you think I want to hear Yeah but

47:02

I do see that it happens a lot. Yeah where

47:05

people never say no and then I wonder why did

47:07

nobody tell me and then and like that and I

47:09

see the a lot minutes. Again because

47:11

like I have ever successful but like I

47:13

have friends actually who running governments like and

47:15

I talk with them a lot about A

47:17

because they have that problem times hundred fifty

47:19

or so that people tell them to what

47:21

they want to hear ya and I think

47:23

it's it's it's A, It's A, it's a

47:26

sign or it's It's hell of a very

47:28

good politician to be obviously holding control because

47:30

again if you have him and go him

47:32

and he don't want us to be criticised

47:34

all the time and he says new probably

47:36

be but still to nurture people around you.

47:39

To. Give you an honest few on

47:41

things and end as the old saying that

47:43

the longer people are him in power like

47:45

normally that still is be to summer so

47:47

I've bad as soylent. Same are like people

47:49

who are. too long in power

47:51

than someone i think this has become tired and

47:53

then they like it a little bit because it's

47:55

easier to tell he was while a with self

47:57

but i'm always thinking about that how can i

48:00

sort of exert or

48:02

tell people around me, like tell me what you

48:04

really think. I might disagree with you by the

48:06

way, that doesn't mean I need to do all

48:08

of what people tell me, but like I just

48:10

wanna hear it. But I think one, it's sort

48:12

of related, but because what

48:15

I'm trying to do at the moment with

48:17

my colleague, Lauren, who just became the CEO

48:19

of a Pyron together, I think what is

48:21

more important as an entrepreneur is

48:24

to reduce the number of

48:26

decisions you make every day. And that is,

48:28

I think, where I became a little bit

48:30

sloppy because as an entrepreneur,

48:32

when you're good, by the

48:34

way, the same for politicians is you become

48:37

a decision-making machine. Yeah, and by the way,

48:39

in the core, that is good because that's

48:41

why you become a leader because

48:43

you make decisions. So, but people

48:46

then kind of, not abuse is so negative, but like

48:49

people kind of abuse it because they outsource

48:51

their decision to you. And

48:53

if you're open for it, they're gonna throw

48:55

more and more simple decisions. And then it

48:57

was years ago, but I remember that, was

49:00

it a dinner? Was

49:02

a big dinner, like not a one, like 100 people, but

49:04

the guest of honor was Barack Obama. And

49:07

the journalist who interviewed him had the very

49:09

interesting questions that, Mr. President, think for a

49:12

moment, I would, you

49:14

would die in 10 minutes. And

49:17

I would be the next president for whatever reason,

49:19

I would be your vice president, whatever. What

49:23

would you tell me, you have 10

49:25

minutes to brief me on

49:27

my role as president. And everybody expected, he's gonna

49:29

say, okay, here are the nuclear codes, aliens exist,

49:32

and all of that. The first

49:34

thing Obama said was

49:36

you need to stop making banal

49:38

decisions because there is like a

49:40

thing called decision fatigue. If you make one

49:42

decision after the other, the whole day about,

49:44

and by the way, business, but let's start

49:46

with what do you wear? What do you

49:48

eat? But then all the small decisions, shall

49:51

we do the company retreat

49:53

there? Whatever people have, yeah, it's

49:56

gonna wear you down and you're gonna become sloppy.

49:58

And then once in a while, Well,

50:00

you make really, really important decisions. Should we

50:02

invest in that company? Should we hire that

50:04

person? Yeah, whatever. And

50:07

if you do too many decisions on that

50:09

day, in that week, in that month, you

50:11

are rather at risk to become sloppy in

50:14

the important decisions. So Obama's point

50:16

was like, he eliminated when he

50:19

became president every single

50:21

non-important decision. He's like, my

50:23

wife is putting up my clothes, like people tell me

50:25

what to eat, whatever, I set a framework for it,

50:28

so that I can focus on the

50:30

decisions who are really

50:32

worthy or worthwhile for a president. And

50:34

I was like, okay, that is not

50:36

what I'm doing. And I'm trying

50:38

to work on that and tell my colleagues in

50:40

an ice- And

50:53

what have you learned at this point matters? What

50:56

other kinds of things that you're trying to optimize,

50:58

making decisions in? Well,

51:00

it's the big ones. Like we need, again,

51:02

that is already because we

51:04

have so many words. This is

51:06

from making investment decisions, making divestment

51:08

decisions, hiring decisions, strategic

51:10

decisions, like in enhanced games, it's going to be

51:12

like, where do we do it? And not just

51:15

it's not just going to be the money. Is

51:17

there strategic reasons to do it in the US?

51:19

Is there strategic reasons to start maybe in the

51:21

Middle Eastern country? Yeah, is it

51:23

clever to give it to a TV station? I mean,

51:25

just having time for that. So it's not the

51:28

one. It's just like it's

51:30

a little bit like these are these questions and I

51:32

like them, but like it's always some of these stuff

51:34

is hard to answer. But then show me and I

51:36

tell you, it's a little like I think they call

51:38

it a porn rule. It's this discussion in the 90s

51:40

when they wanted to do erotic on

51:43

the internet, at least in Germany on TV, like

51:45

soft porn. And then it was the whole discussion

51:47

where soft porn ends and where does hardcore start.

51:49

And the answer was always like, it's

51:51

hard to define, but show me and I tell

51:53

you. And the same with these decisions. I think

51:55

every entrepreneur who's listening, you're going to know what

51:58

I mean. And there are these a lot of. questions

52:00

to you and decisions to make which are not

52:02

really valuable. And when I tell that you now

52:04

and you become receptive for it and you think

52:06

about it, you're going to know these stuff and

52:08

then they are the valuable ones. So

52:11

on the strategic, like

52:13

I say, you got lots of things

52:15

going on in, in the different categories,

52:18

just to recap on some of the

52:20

things you've said, enhanced games, psychedelics, AI,

52:22

crypto, biotech, longevity, those things.

52:25

Is that all sort of wrapping up

52:27

towards a clear vision of where you

52:30

want your life to go, like you

52:32

obviously big into longevity or currently 140

52:34

looking very good,

52:36

by the way. Um,

52:39

so, you know, what's your target age you're trying to

52:41

live through and have you got a plan for how

52:43

many productive decades you've got left in your life and

52:45

where are you looking to take that? All

52:48

right. Many questions. So my target age, sort of

52:50

the same question, like what, what, what the fuck

52:52

are you planning to do with your life? Yeah.

52:54

So no, my target age is living

52:56

as long as I

52:59

want to live till I don't

53:01

want to live anymore. I really don't have a target age. I

53:03

would say, yes. And by the way, then you

53:05

need to give me time because then I want to

53:07

explain it. I would say it might be some hundred years and

53:10

I think I'm going to have that option, um,

53:13

but because like short version is

53:16

there is at the moment, incredible success,

53:19

not visible because it's not on the market

53:21

yet, but in biotech, yeah, about extending human

53:23

lifespan. So the time we live and, but

53:25

also the health span because people then who

53:28

listening might think, Oh my God, I have

53:30

a 90 year old granny and, uh,

53:32

and I don't want to add 10 years and

53:34

I understand that, but we're going to rejuvenate people.

53:37

So people will be younger and healthier. Yeah. And

53:39

at the same time live longer. And I deeply

53:41

believe that we're going to see in roundabout the

53:43

next 10 to 20. Let

53:45

me give you a window that one

53:47

famous year where we're going

53:50

to add more than one year of life expectancy,

53:52

scientifically. So more than the one calendar year you

53:54

lose. And from that point on sort of expect,

53:56

like I think you call it rat race, like

53:58

the, the, the, the. is one because

54:00

you're adding more than you lose and that's

54:03

going to come. It's called aging or longevity

54:06

escape velocity. And

54:08

I think that already me, 100% my

54:10

10, 15 year old

54:13

godson, they're going to

54:16

have that. But I think I'm going to have

54:18

that as well. But like I'm in

54:20

the middle, so meaning or I'm at the brink,

54:22

so I need to make sure that I'm not

54:25

dying of stupid stuff the next 10, 20 years,

54:27

which is practically mainly focusing on not getting cancer

54:29

and not getting a cardiovascular disease, which by the

54:31

way, already sets a limit of what I can

54:33

do with enhancing because if you do too much,

54:35

you're going to have a cardio

54:37

problem. And I don't want that obviously,

54:40

because that would be a stupid threat. So but

54:42

I think I'm already sketchy. So what does it mean?

54:44

It gives hopefully me and then hopefully

54:46

every other person in the world the opportunity

54:48

to live as long as you please. And

54:50

I can't tell you right now. If you

54:52

would ask me right now, I would say

54:54

most likely hundreds of years. But

54:57

maybe with 120, I'm like, you know what, now,

54:59

I had 120 Christmas 120 birthday, I want to

55:03

see what's on the other side because that was a

55:05

very spiritual. So I'm not trying to escape judgment or

55:08

whatever. Like I think some way, by the way, all

55:10

we all want to go like, yeah, but what I

55:13

want for myself, and I want to give

55:15

it to everybody, I want every

55:18

individual person take that decision. By the

55:20

way, which also means if we are

55:22

successful, and there

55:24

are many other great companies who are

55:26

working now on longevity, we need to

55:28

ethically redefine how to end this life

55:30

because we cannot force people, even if

55:32

we think it's great, like there might

55:34

be a person that I'm super healthy,

55:36

super happy, but I just don't

55:39

want to go on anymore with 150. And then

55:41

we need to allow people to end

55:43

that. So I think with extreme success in

55:45

longevity research, we also want to redefine what

55:47

dying means it's going to be like more

55:50

like a conscious decision where

55:52

you invite all your friends and say, look, now

55:54

it's time to see if there is

55:56

something on the other side or not. But that's what I want to

55:58

achieve. I can't tell you that how long I want to go

56:00

on. I think I'm the type of person because

56:03

I'm easily excitable. I'm always like novelty

56:05

who wants to go on for very

56:07

long. Let's see. By the way, I

56:09

do also believe that psychedelics are very

56:13

related to that. Because if we

56:16

because psychedelics like as kind of a

56:18

side effect almost also rejuvenate the brain

56:20

in terms of it makes

56:22

you younger in terms of seeking

56:25

out novelty being creative, whatever.

56:27

So I'm always saying, the

56:29

more we actually succeed in

56:32

longevity science, we need actually

56:34

preventative psychedelics because you want to be 70,

56:37

80, 90, then you're going to when you're

56:40

healthy and happy, like healthy, then you want to you

56:42

want to have that openness of a 20 year old

56:44

to go out with 90, which you

56:46

will be able to and say I go to uni now and

56:49

study something new. But that is not just your

56:51

body who needs to function and not just your looks

56:53

need to be but like it's

56:56

more your mindset. Yeah. And, and I think

56:58

psychedelics will there's more cool stuff coming. By

57:00

the way, we also it's not just psychedelics

57:03

in mental health, we have brain computer interface

57:05

companies, other everything around the

57:07

brain. So I think we're going to give

57:09

people also that freshness or that youngness

57:12

in their brain. And then let's see how I think it

57:14

could be some hundred years. So of

57:16

all the things you said that which are many exciting things.

57:19

One thing that I hadn't thought

57:22

of before is sort of the category even though it's so

57:24

obvious. And so when you're ready, I'll

57:26

co pound it with you much later in life, like

57:29

celebrating that as a

57:31

business in itself, but all the businesses around

57:33

death are kind of depressing their funerals, their

57:35

wills, they're all these things and they're dressed

57:38

up well, they've got great marketing and everything

57:40

else. However, actually, a business completely focused

57:42

on the choice of death. And

57:45

obviously, ethically, so much would have

57:47

to change culturally. You

57:50

know, beyond just in Switzerland. Yeah, no,

57:53

but like the one of the

57:56

first groundbreaking studies in that century,

57:58

which sort of really showed

58:00

people how the

58:03

power of psychedelics was the

58:05

study with terminally ill cancer patients

58:07

who knew they're going to die.

58:11

And as you say, like some people make peace with

58:13

it, but like actually if

58:15

you talk to a psychologist, the fear

58:18

of imminent death if you're not

58:20

at peace with yourself is

58:23

the worst pain

58:25

and fear you can have. It's

58:27

really like panic. So some

58:29

of these people who know they're going to die and

58:32

are not ready for it, they

58:34

have the worst time personally and

58:36

the people around them. And that

58:38

study showed that with psychedelics, you

58:41

are able to, I can't remember, I think it was like 60

58:43

or 70% like sort of remission rate

58:47

because it brings you at

58:49

peace with it and so gives people like a

58:52

proper one, which is for them

58:54

and their loved ones. And like I

58:56

had actually a friend whose mom was

58:59

dying and they had a strained relationship

59:01

and my advice was like, look, you're

59:03

gonna, it was

59:05

in a country where it's legal, he was so advised,

59:07

I said, you're gonna

59:10

go with MDMA to your mom and you want

59:12

to do MDMA together. And he cried after and

59:14

it was the best thing I could have done

59:16

because they are peace and they love each other.

59:18

And like, yeah, and that's where you should be.

59:21

You should celebrate that the individual person should do

59:23

psychedelics for being

59:25

ready for the journey. And then I think with your

59:27

family should do MDMA. Not

59:29

bad. Okay. You've got 10 minutes

59:32

left where

59:35

someone, me, is

59:37

going to take over all of your companies and everything

59:39

that you do. Oh my God. You got 10 minutes

59:42

to give me advice on what I need to do. And

59:45

I probably can't handle doing all of it. So you

59:47

probably have to select which area you think I should

59:50

get the most focus to and everything that you do.

59:52

What's the area that you think is going to make

59:54

the most impact for humanity out of everything that you

59:56

do that you leave to me? And what is your

59:58

advice for me? But I'm going to have to focus

1:00:00

on to do it well. Well,

1:00:03

I think it's a biotech business. Overall, if

1:00:06

you say the whole block and then within

1:00:08

the biotech business, I think, what all of

1:00:10

them like longevity is obviously a huge impact

1:00:12

if we give people more years, if we

1:00:15

give people happiness, like, I also, we

1:00:17

haven't talked about it, maybe we

1:00:19

should, because it's my favorite other

1:00:21

portfolio company, then we have touched all

1:00:23

of them is the brain computer interface

1:00:26

company, because I think that could be

1:00:28

one of the most transformative companies

1:00:32

if we succeed there. So

1:00:34

before I mean, is that like, Neuralink

1:00:37

and, and it's already bad, not bad,

1:00:39

it's already very like painful for me

1:00:41

because Neuralink, I have to give it

1:00:44

to you the mark. He's a great

1:00:46

marketer, but they are way behind us

1:00:48

because like he's just treating the first

1:00:50

patients and the portfolio company of us,

1:00:52

it's called BlackRock, Eurotech, nothing to

1:00:54

do with BlackRock, the asset manager, because they

1:00:56

in Utah, where BlackRock is like

1:00:59

a sort of nature

1:01:01

thing. Yeah. And I've got to give it to

1:01:03

the branding guys that did make it confusing. Yes,

1:01:06

we're going to change it somewhere, but everybody knows

1:01:08

them. It's Barclays Bank. But

1:01:11

in science, everybody knows them. Yeah.

1:01:14

No, but we want to change it. The

1:01:16

name of it doesn't matter, but like they

1:01:18

treat people since more than 10 years, so

1:01:21

they inject or they insert chips.

1:01:24

And while that sounds outlandish, we're doing

1:01:26

it at the moment for two groups,

1:01:29

like quadriplegic people, and

1:01:31

then people with ALS. ALS, you know, is the one where

1:01:33

you get locked in your body. And at

1:01:35

the very end of ALS, you can't even

1:01:37

move your eyelids. Like every single, I'm explaining

1:01:39

it for people who don't know it, like

1:01:41

every single muscle fails. Yeah. And at the

1:01:43

very end, that means you can't even move

1:01:45

your eyelids, you can't move your fingers. And

1:01:47

that is maybe one of the worst diseases

1:01:49

because your brain otherwise, or your brain is

1:01:51

fully functioning. It's not a brain disease. It's

1:01:53

a muscle disease, meaning there are

1:01:55

people who have 40 who develop ALS. And most

1:01:58

of them, by the way, kill them. and

1:02:00

it's one of the rare diseases

1:02:03

where it's actually allowed at the very

1:02:05

end because like I think we all

1:02:07

can't imagine how it is being for

1:02:10

like decades locked in your body and

1:02:12

you can't communicate. So we had for

1:02:14

example, I take that just to show

1:02:16

how far blackrope neurotech is

1:02:19

compared to anybody else including compared to neurolink

1:02:21

is like we have a patient in years and

1:02:24

he would have killed himself in this

1:02:26

case it was even more complicated because very religious. So

1:02:29

they didn't even know if he should and

1:02:31

could and wanted and so right

1:02:34

before his last sort of muscle was vanishing

1:02:36

we gave him a chip in the brain

1:02:39

and he's now thinking and

1:02:42

the computer is speaking for him. So

1:02:45

we've mastered a very basic form of

1:02:47

telepathy where he's sending via the chip

1:02:49

we gave him his thoughts to the

1:02:51

computer and the computer is speaking for

1:02:53

him. And by the way we have

1:02:55

another project where we're working on a

1:02:57

new hearing aid where

1:03:00

we would not use the broken ear. By

1:03:02

the way hearing aids I didn't

1:03:04

realize that a complete shit like I always thought when

1:03:06

people had an hearing aid they're gonna hear 100% again

1:03:09

but this technology the normal ones are so

1:03:11

old you hear like 20 30% so it's

1:03:13

always a combination still of hearing aid and

1:03:15

lip reading. Yeah and we will be able

1:03:18

because we sending the sound directly to your

1:03:20

brain and not using the broken parts of

1:03:22

the ears to bring

1:03:24

people back to 100% but if I combine

1:03:26

these two technologies then you

1:03:28

can send thoughts from one person

1:03:30

to the other and we're gonna

1:03:33

have telepathy maybe already in 10

1:03:35

years. So it sounds like you've

1:03:37

managed to narrow down and pick the

1:03:39

one. Well the pocket

1:03:41

I think by the way now

1:03:44

this is the hard part right there is

1:03:46

there's so much interesting stuff in the frontier

1:03:48

yeah it is like it's phenomenal and I want to

1:03:50

be involved in all of that of course why wouldn't

1:03:53

you write like a plan

1:03:55

to buy what you said as a vision fatigue so

1:03:57

this is this is the thing so this is your last final

1:04:00

class, 50-foot leaders. I rather fail

1:04:02

though. I rather fail than

1:04:05

losing out on one cool thing.

1:04:07

Yeah. But I want to just

1:04:10

do things which excite me again,

1:04:12

because why should I presume

1:04:14

these are boring for me if I don't have to do them.

1:04:17

Yeah. And then if I look

1:04:19

at our portfolio, what this all has in common,

1:04:22

I want to really be

1:04:24

a small part of

1:04:26

helping to design the future and the world we

1:04:28

live in and obviously that

1:04:30

means I want to do things and invest in

1:04:32

things and start things, I

1:04:35

personally like that they exist. So,

1:04:37

or negatives, or excluding, I wouldn't invest or do something

1:04:40

which I'm like, okay, this is bad. I don't want

1:04:42

that in my life. Why should I do it again?

1:04:44

So everything we do, I'm both

1:04:46

proud. And I also think at least I, there

1:04:48

might be people who say, oh, but

1:04:51

I think all things are so you, who wouldn't like people

1:04:54

to be more happy. But like maybe in Hans games, maybe

1:04:56

there are people who say, oh, this shouldn't exist, but I

1:04:58

believe it should be exist. So I want to push it.

1:05:00

So, but that's the red sort of

1:05:02

a lot of connective thread through our

1:05:04

portfolio that everything we do is things

1:05:06

I'm proud of. And I think

1:05:08

they should be there. It's, and I'm proud of

1:05:10

the hotel brand, like because people go there and

1:05:13

have a good time and yeah, it's all about

1:05:15

really designing the future and making either

1:05:17

in a very concrete way or

1:05:20

in a more like, uh, indirect

1:05:22

way, people happier and healthier. Okay.

1:05:26

I can only imagine the hundred things

1:05:28

you're going to do as soon as you leave the interview,

1:05:30

um, but I also really appreciate

1:05:32

that you've given us a lot of time. So

1:05:34

Christian, thank you very much for joining us on

1:05:36

Speaker Leaders. Where can we find out more about

1:05:38

the enhanced games? Uh, we have a

1:05:40

website. Uh, it's

1:05:43

hopefully enhanced.org. Um, you can

1:05:45

follow me. I'm posting a little

1:05:48

about it on Twitter, which

1:05:50

is C for Christian underscore. And then my last

1:05:52

name, I'm gonna, my, uh, we have a website.

1:05:54

M a Y E R, uh,

1:05:56

or on LinkedIn or on Instagram on

1:05:58

Instagram is just my full. name without

1:06:01

a dot, whatever. Like I'm very always

1:06:03

vocal about the things

1:06:05

which excite me, which is psychedelics. Oh yeah. So

1:06:07

if you want to learn more, follow

1:06:10

me. Amazing. Thank you, mate. Thank you.

1:06:13

Great pleasure. All

1:06:19

right. That's it. If you enjoyed

1:06:21

this interview and want to learn more

1:06:23

about Christian's groundbreaking work in psychedelics, be

1:06:25

sure to check out our first conversation,

1:06:28

which aired on November 1st. I'll

1:06:30

include a link to that episode in the

1:06:32

description. It's awesome. It's mind

1:06:35

blowing and the stuff he does

1:06:37

in psychedelics is truly fascinating and

1:06:39

pioneering. Thank you for tuning

1:06:41

into this episode of secret leaders. If you're

1:06:43

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1:06:46

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1:06:48

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1:06:51

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1:06:55

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1:06:58

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1:07:00

it from me. See you soon. Here

1:07:09

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