0:00

Building. A company that brings joy to

0:02

millions around the world can be a

0:04

labor of love and true reflection of

0:06

your deepest passions. But. As

0:08

the years go by, you might start

0:10

to feel a creeping sense of unease.

0:12

Annoying question that you can't shake. You.

0:15

Are you really. Beneath. The accolades

0:17

and achievements you've turned a passion

0:19

into a community and a community.

0:21

And to accompany. A. What can

0:24

you take with you when you walk away. This.

0:27

Is the story of Next A

0:29

Been a cofounder of Resident Advisor,

0:31

the global platform that reshape the

0:33

electronic music landscape the over two

0:35

decades Nick lived and breathed all

0:37

re nurturing it from a small

0:39

side hustle to a cultural juggernaut

0:41

are a became the center of

0:44

electronic music and a way that

0:46

cannot be overstated. Looking. For

0:48

the outside in it seemed like the

0:50

absolute dream job. And. By

0:52

all accounts, it was. Going to

0:54

Incredible rapes, meeting the greatest musicians,

0:57

and hosting stages at the biggest

0:59

festivals. But even as the company

1:01

swords to new heights, Nick found

1:03

himself grappling with a profound in

1:05

a struggle. It becomes so

1:08

entwined with his role, so consumed by

1:10

the demands of leadership that he'd lost

1:12

touch with his own identity. The.

1:14

Realization hit him like a lightning bolt

1:16

To truly find himself. he'd need to

1:19

do the unthinkable. It. Need to

1:21

walk away from the company he loved and the

1:23

mission the had to find him. This

1:26

is a conversation about the

1:28

often overlooked cost of success,

1:30

the courage required to let

1:32

go, and the transformative power

1:34

of self discovery. Okay, without

1:36

further ado, my conversation with

1:38

Next, the bane of Resident

1:40

Advisor. Let's do this. right?

1:46

Now. We go straight into air. Let's go

1:48

again. What made you stop? Or a.

1:52

I grew up as an only child

1:54

in Sydney. And. I had

1:56

a brother who are still do have a rather but

1:58

he lived in England. And I

2:00

would see him once a year. Older, Older, ideas,

2:03

older. And. He was

2:05

a international Dj and he would

2:07

be booked serve tourist raia once

2:09

a year in the summer and

2:11

he would come out and am.

2:13

And. So he actually introduced me to music from

2:15

a really young age. And to look up to

2:17

him yet hugely hugely and I'm a many was

2:20

my older brother he was eight years old. I

2:22

was a very successful international Dj. I was falling

2:24

in love with music. Yeah, sure, sometimes you still

2:26

I was a prank. Rest

2:28

of your brothers so far enough back and

2:30

I looked up to him. he's the He's

2:33

and played some of the fatherly role for

2:35

Made by Site, yet neither was a huge

2:37

amount of admiration and and I remember he

2:39

said take me to shows from a really

2:41

young age sovereign be like a New Year's.

2:43

Eve I must have been fourteen fifteen

2:45

and I'm understanding in the booth while

2:47

he was Dj. And if you think

2:49

about what a sensory overload clubs or

2:52

even for adults can imagine is, a

2:54

fifteen year old boy like I was

2:56

completely mesmerized a that moments and I

2:58

remember thinking. I.

3:00

I want to be part of this in

3:02

I was developing her. A. Relationship

3:05

with the music. It was hugely important

3:07

to me I growing up as a

3:09

kid I kid about two things: cricket

3:11

and electronic music. And. And

3:13

they were there like my to siege person

3:15

points and at one point I realized I

3:17

wasn't gonna make a career out of line

3:20

crickets and and so I really fell in

3:22

love with the dance music community in Sydney

3:24

to the point where growing up as an

3:26

only child apart from this one month a

3:28

year or really craved to the senses belonging.

3:31

And actually sounds. In.

3:33

The Music and in the community

3:35

in Sydney and. I

3:38

did what many seventeen year olds did us,

3:40

worked hard, I saved up money. I bought

3:42

turntables cause I thought well I love his

3:44

music. It moves me emotionally. I'm gonna be

3:46

a teacher. For.

3:48

The turntables. Following a my brother's

3:50

footsteps. Boatloads of records. You know

3:52

how to be. recollection before I

3:55

even had turntables and then over

3:57

the next year as. Me

3:59

Dejiang. Wednesday don't just at home I

4:01

realized that I wasn't. Technically.

4:03

Anywhere near as good. As my

4:06

friends. Which. Is obsolete.

4:08

Deeply frustrating and. And

4:10

I realized why. Our town not gonna be a

4:12

Dj. but this isn't gonna be my. Contribution.

4:15

To this community this is not how I'm gonna have relates

4:17

her and be a part of it. And

4:20

so I thought to myself, whilst, whilst can I

4:22

do it. And. I

4:25

loved writing growing up. And.

4:28

So I thought to myself. Well. What

4:30

am I right? About The music? And. It

4:32

didn't there wasn't anywhere on the Internet that

4:35

I felt was really showcasing and celebrating the

4:37

music that really moved. And I

4:39

was fortunate enough to through. The.

4:42

Rave scene in Sydney. Mates add some

4:44

other people who. An infinitely more

4:46

technical ability to me when it came

4:49

to building web sites. And and we

4:51

just got talking about this idea of

4:53

whoop, the community in Sydney would really

4:55

benefit from. Having. A place to talked

4:57

about the music that we love celebrating. These are

4:59

the showcasing this ah this and helping people find

5:01

the best parties because I didn't exist. And

5:04

so. Are I was

5:06

born just a desert out of a

5:09

desire to just contribute meaningfully to the

5:11

community and the culture in Sydney. And

5:13

what we didn't realize at the time

5:15

was by creating something hyperlocal for Sydney.

5:18

It could them behind the local for all

5:20

these different cities around the world, as in

5:22

the sort of a database infrastructure you'd created

5:24

was essentially replicable because of the hype. A

5:26

localized where exactly and you know it. It

5:28

was like pre my Space Precise books and

5:30

it had a real community was kind of

5:32

built. For. Community by community and

5:34

it had a real. Community.

5:36

Feel to it so you know every city

5:38

had it's own forum. And different people

5:41

who loved electronic music would go on there.

5:43

In his eye we kind of his party

5:45

and then they would meet up and that

5:47

We talk about the night online and and

5:49

things like that. And so it was a

5:51

social network Before social networks were what they

5:53

are today and. And

5:56

so we were. We.

5:59

Would. contributing meaningfully to

6:02

the thing that we cared deeply about

6:04

and that was hugely rewarding. We never expected

6:07

it to become what it's become today but

6:10

it was just as a kid I just

6:12

wanted to be a part of this thing and this

6:14

allowed me to be immersed in

6:16

it in an even more meaningful way.

6:20

Okay so a little

6:22

interlude very quickly but I haven't told

6:24

you fun fact so when I was younger

6:28

used to love raving too I mean I still do but

6:30

now I have a wife and child it's a lot harder

6:32

to find my excuses and I

6:34

was very inspired by RA back in the day and obviously like

6:36

all young people you know I want to go to raves can't

6:39

really afford them they're I mean not that

6:41

they're expensive but they are everything's expensive when you're younger

6:43

so I created a blog called live

6:45

rave review.com and I used to

6:47

just blag my way I used to go to every

6:50

rave I ever wanted to free eventually

6:52

tons of festivals all just from writing

6:54

you know just reviews yeah

6:56

of the raves which is amazing because

6:58

I and

7:00

I was inspired by RA back in the day

7:02

that you could even do that and it

7:05

was so easy of it to set up a blog

7:07

yeah um anyway just thought I'd let you know that

7:09

because uh kindred spirits in terms of you know how

7:11

to get free tickets to raves well just write about

7:13

them and people would quite like to just you know

7:16

have been published it's niche yeah and you find niche

7:18

audiences and for the first three or four years that's

7:21

what it was yeah right like we weren't successful it was

7:23

just me and I didn't actually care about monetizing I just

7:25

wanted free tickets to raves but for the first three or

7:27

four years neither did we right you know we started it

7:29

just as a hobby it wasn't designed

7:31

to be a global media

7:33

brand and tech platform it

7:36

was designed to allow us to be close

7:38

to the music that we loved and so

7:40

it was never about making

7:43

money initially you know I think we

7:45

had our costs were 50 a

7:47

month you know we started the business with I put in $400

7:49

and my co-founder Paul put

7:51

in $400 and that's the only money that's ever gone

7:53

into the business and and so it

7:55

never was about making money and and I think that was

7:58

one of the things that allowed it to actually Develop

8:00

organically and actually build this sense of

8:03

trust with the community Because

8:05

we weren't we didn't need to kind of accelerate

8:07

the growth or cut corners we could

8:09

actually just build something that we felt was

8:11

purposeful and Was actually

8:13

making a contribution to the culture if

8:16

you're an electronic music fan like me You

8:18

imagine you got the coolest fucking job in the world You

8:20

go to all the raves you want to all the festivals you want to

8:22

meet all the artists you want to Hey, is

8:25

that true and being what are some great examples of

8:27

that then make me jealous? It's

8:30

definitely true. Okay. All right Commission

8:32

complete. I can

8:35

confirm that I Think

8:38

for me it was the it

8:41

was actually the moments that I had of realizing

8:46

how special What

8:48

we had created was that meant the most

8:51

to me. So I remember growing up in

8:53

Sydney as a child. I heard

8:56

about this festival called sonar in Barcelona and

8:59

I just and I heard about it from

9:01

my brother and I just had such a desire

9:04

to One day go

9:06

to Barcelona as a participant and

9:09

just see the city and to see the festival

9:11

and then fast forward 1015

9:14

years. I'm not only am

9:16

I at sonar. We are Curating

9:18

and presenting one of the main stages at

9:20

the festival. We've got the RA logo on,

9:22

you know, both sides of the stage and

9:26

and we did that for a number of years and every

9:29

single year when I went and

9:31

I had that experience I arrived

9:34

and it literally took my breath away

9:36

because I realized that at one point

9:38

I was a little kid who just dreamt

9:41

one day of even being at this thing

9:43

and here we were

9:45

actually being an integrated part of it

9:47

being a you know, the international media

9:49

partner for the festival and actually Presenting

9:52

this stage and it never

9:54

didn't have a certain reverence to it whenever

9:56

I got there Even after having done it

9:58

for five years each year year when I

10:00

arrived there in June and I saw the stage, I

10:02

felt that little pulse in my heart and

10:05

it was interesting. We had lots

10:07

of those moments along the way of, you

10:09

know, there would be, I

10:12

remember there was a group called

10:14

Tyrant which used to be Sasha,

10:16

Lee Burridge and Craig Richards and

10:18

they would tour Sydney, they

10:20

would tour Australia, sorry, and

10:23

I would make a point of seeing them and sometimes Sasha

10:26

would play Friday Night in Sydney and Saturday Night in Melbourne

10:28

and I would see them Friday Night in Sydney and then

10:30

I would fly to Melbourne and for Saturday Night

10:33

and then I remember when we did our

10:35

ten year series of parties where we did

10:37

ten parties around the world in ten clubs

10:39

with ten secret headliners, we

10:41

had this idea of actually bringing Tyrant

10:44

back together for one night and

10:46

we actually managed to make that happen

10:48

and here, like I remember being that

10:51

kid again who was so

10:53

influenced by these artists

10:56

growing up to the point where I decided that this is

10:58

actually what I want to be my career and

11:00

here we were many years later actually like

11:03

putting on events and actually inviting them to

11:05

come and play and building

11:07

a relationship with these people who I'd looked up to

11:09

for so long and another one

11:12

of those moments was the

11:16

Robert Miles record, Children, probably

11:19

the first dance music record I fully

11:21

fell in love with and

11:23

potentially the record that started the journey

11:26

that I went on and

11:28

I about seven

11:31

years or eight years into RA, Robert

11:34

Miles actually emailed RA

11:36

just about something to do with his label

11:39

page to say hey, like I see you got my label page,

11:41

how do I make changes or what have you and

11:44

that for me was such

11:46

an incredible moment because here was the

11:49

producer and creator of this one

11:52

piece of music that potentially changed the

11:54

trajectory of my life And

11:56

now seven or eight years on, he's

11:59

emailing us. To. Say hey, like your

12:01

platform clearly mean so much to the industry that I

12:03

want to make sure that the why are represented on

12:05

it is accurate. It just

12:07

lie remedy day like I was just lay

12:09

was mansour It was just such an incredible

12:11

moment and and are it was beautiful. Given

12:13

I could write back to him and actually

12:15

just say like you don't know this part

12:17

in a your music actually was the thing

12:19

that I fell in love with initially and

12:21

and when he said. He

12:24

was he was very touched and know

12:26

thanks my just sort of I can

12:28

pay taxes yes yes yes yes organ

12:30

well I can say that I am

12:32

and so it was actually just growing

12:35

up with growing up personally and growing

12:37

up in this culture. In.

12:40

A way that just was filled with

12:43

these moments is. Kind

12:47

of reverence for. Where

12:49

I was at the time and where I

12:51

come from and I just dreamt about you

12:54

know, being a part of this community in

12:56

Sydney and he I was now part this

12:58

community globally. And and yep there and we

13:00

were. We were making it up as we

13:02

went along the whole time. Like I remember

13:04

the first. Party. We did

13:07

internationally. Was it the Miami Winter

13:09

Music Conference back when I was

13:11

a thing and. You.

13:13

Know there's many ways to. Organize.

13:16

A party, but quite often. What?

13:18

What happens is you. He higher than

13:20

you and you get the. Venue: For free.

13:23

You keep the door, money, Paleo costs

13:25

and end of any gets the ball

13:27

as like a simple us we're was

13:29

he didn't notice of the time so

13:31

we were like looking for have any

13:33

to do our first event at the

13:35

Monument to Music Conference. A first ever

13:37

international event ends is like forty two

13:39

thousand forty thousand fossella and and we

13:41

get introduced see. Ah, a

13:44

promoter there And a venue I know, Who.

13:48

We. Start speaking to and he says yeah

13:50

I've got this venue. Scary for you guys

13:52

ah is can be twelve grand. And.

13:55

And will sing like a lot of money but we don't

13:57

know any better and we need have any we want to

13:59

do this party. So Paul

14:01

actually had. About

14:03

that amount of money in savings. And.

14:05

Say he actually like transferred his personal savings

14:08

to this promoter in Miami see for us

14:10

to do a party at this club that

14:12

we'd never heard of or been to. So

14:15

we arrive in Miami and of this was a

14:17

we have to sell. More. Than

14:20

twelve grams where the tickets otherwise with

14:22

completely broke and we arrive in Miami

14:24

and the first thing we do is

14:27

like go to the club we realize

14:29

that the club is still being made

14:31

still people painting the walls in the

14:33

club and and the and in the

14:36

shower the next day. And.

14:39

This. Is a time. Also when like he was

14:41

already buy tickets in advance. your kind of like

14:43

relying on people's of turn off to the door

14:45

and we get and and we speak into the

14:47

promoter and and is what yeah no novels you'll

14:49

definitely ready. Definitely do it Anyway that time comes

14:51

round to the to the. To

14:54

the event and we are. We.

14:57

What we walked in and this

14:59

daughters both open in about an

15:01

hour and still people painting the

15:03

like central columns in the club

15:05

and to the point where like

15:07

the pied still drying his people

15:09

are entering and fortunately for us

15:11

the party was hugely successful and

15:13

we made. You. Know probably like

15:15

four thousand, five hundred dollars or something.

15:18

like enough to us like to cover

15:20

I toss with this you know hugely

15:22

successful party and it was just a

15:24

good example is just really how green

15:27

we were and how much we had

15:29

to learn. but it was also a

15:31

beautiful experience. but am. And

15:33

not mistake with medical. Best

15:35

part in the world. What's. Your

15:38

opinion style. I'm telling you that with the by

15:40

far his head was it was a guy like

15:42

a way on was the most of us. both

15:44

of us festival. Hours of us rice.

15:49

Blustery, I think is the best festival agreed

15:51

in the world. I'm.

15:54

Burning. Mans incredible, but I think of it

15:56

more as a social experiment. totally agree with

15:58

or without and a festival. Crown

16:05

in Amsterdam in its

16:07

time. Was. For a

16:09

the best club. In. The world. That.

16:12

Was a very, very special place.

16:14

And part of what made it

16:17

special was it's impermanence. And.

16:19

I think there's a magic. In that. And.

16:25

And. I think the end in London. Nascar.

16:28

And back in the day and

16:30

was a really really special club

16:32

and along with fabric. Those.

16:34

Two places where she usually influential in

16:36

my last on rent fabric. You pause

16:38

the owed is to see yourself nine.

16:40

I went last if there. Is

16:43

still relevant. You know

16:46

Fab represents yes if is supposedly both s

16:48

am I know I'm like offer goes awry.

16:50

If everyone's time a week around, the fact

16:52

that I'm going to rave a light riot

16:55

can probably get through Monday. Suck up to

16:57

say tends to be the way. And

17:01

I. We

17:03

know even in my heyday couple times a

17:05

month maybe three by need some time off

17:07

I imagine news to goes right over time.

17:10

So. How did you function

17:12

and over you? Just completely sober?

17:14

thousand? that? I

17:17

remarkable hangover. Resilience,

17:20

Where. I. Used to

17:23

call it bounced back ability and it

17:25

was. Second, To none. And

17:28

that's a secret source of running businesses. and I

17:30

literally was once he has also running the business

17:32

because. I. Remember the year.

17:35

Before. I got divorced My ex

17:37

wife said to me. Do.

17:40

You realize how many weekends you're away?

17:42

Last. Year. And. This,

17:45

he didn't feel any different. Nothing special about

17:47

another. An absolute know it it. As

17:49

she says, thirty seven. And

17:52

to stay second weekends away? Rating?

17:55

Pretty. much the guys in there was some weddings

17:57

into birthdays is buffy never primarily had like things

17:59

like wedding Yeah, exactly. And

18:02

so it really became such a part of

18:04

who I was. And I was also so

18:07

energized by being in

18:09

these environments that I

18:12

was kind of riding high on

18:14

those experiences. And I think

18:18

it also was a level of disconnection to

18:20

myself that it actually meant

18:23

that I wasn't fully feeling actually perhaps how

18:25

tired I was or how stressed I was.

18:28

And I also really wanted

18:30

to show people within

18:32

the company that you could do both.

18:35

You could go out. And actually

18:37

going out is an important part of working at

18:39

the company. One unique thing about RA is every

18:42

single person in the company is

18:44

a raver. Yeah, of course. So from the person in

18:46

accounts to the engineering team to the editorial team, of

18:48

course. Without it's one of the things

18:51

that we always said from the beginning. We want to

18:53

make sure that every single person in the business is

18:55

connected with this shared passion point. And I think that's

18:57

one of the best things that we ever did in

19:00

terms of one of the best cultural decisions we ever made.

19:03

But I also wanted to show that we're

19:05

here to work as well. And so almost

19:07

like a badge of honor, I would

19:09

be the first one in the office on

19:12

Monday morning. So if people saw me out,

19:14

they would know, OK, he went out and

19:16

he definitely goes out. But there

19:18

he is Monday morning, first one in at

19:20

the office. You were out, but you were also in

19:22

in. Exactly. Got it. And I

19:24

was trying to lead

19:27

from the front in that way

19:29

to show that those two things could

19:31

be combined and they were both important.

19:34

And so that was fueling my

19:37

bounce back ability. Bounce back ability. So

19:39

you could have been a cricketer after all. Perhaps

19:42

should have been. Naughty cricketer. You're built

19:44

for it. That would have been. That's

19:46

the next life. So first

19:48

four years, really just a hobby. When

19:51

does that change? So after we

19:53

were doing it as a side hustle for

19:55

the first four years, and

19:58

I Remember actually being. The in

20:00

St. Paul Paul was working for

20:02

design and development agency I was

20:05

working for advertising or marketing agency

20:07

and pulled in Berlin May in

20:09

London and I remember even actually

20:11

and I will actually was walking

20:13

through that yesterday was says working

20:16

for this. Advertising.

20:18

Agency and then at lunchtime I would

20:20

meet up in Golden Square inside with

20:22

the person who was selling the banner

20:24

ads on our I Said The Times

20:27

Three actually had three full time staff

20:29

working on our A whilst we were

20:31

still full time for other people, and

20:33

then after four years we had enough

20:36

money in the bank account from selling

20:38

on our advertising on the web sites.

20:40

C Survive. And. So we thought

20:42

you know what is got three months? We

20:44

can always get another job, another ad agency

20:46

or design agencies and. Why?

20:49

Don't we go full time and that see what happens?

20:51

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the show notes. Building

23:02

all companies tough, building

23:04

bootstrap companies come with

23:07

particular limitations, of course. How

23:09

did you deal with that?

23:12

I've always been a very optimistic person. So

23:15

I actually didn't see a

23:17

lot of the limitations that might come

23:19

otherwise with not having access

23:21

to a large chunk of

23:23

capital. Typical entrepreneur. Yeah. Naively

23:26

optimistic. And

23:30

also, because we never had

23:32

financial targets in terms of like, okay, we need

23:34

to be at this number to still be to

23:37

make investors happy or to do whatever.

23:40

And our running costs were so low

23:43

because our office at

23:45

the beginning was a friend who was also running

23:47

another startup. I would go to his house in

23:49

the morning. We would sit at either end of

23:52

his long dining room table, and we would work

23:54

together. And we did that for like a year

23:56

and a half. That was the office, basically. And

23:59

so our overheads were very. low and we would just

24:01

hire someone new when we had

24:03

enough money in the bank account to do so.

24:05

So, you know, initially we were three people and

24:07

then we were four people and then we were

24:10

five people. But it was always based on this

24:12

idea of we wanted to build an economically sustainable

24:14

business. So we never kind of overextended ourselves and

24:16

put us under undue pressure because we hired 20

24:18

people and then we needed to figure out how

24:21

we were going to pay them. So we grew

24:23

it in a very organic way. And I think

24:25

the the world and the Internet was a

24:27

different place back then. We had realistically

24:30

seven or eight years of doing what we were doing

24:34

before anyone really cared, you know, in terms of

24:36

scale. We cared and we because we didn't mind

24:38

if 10 people read us or 10,000 people

24:41

were reading the site. It was the same to us like we

24:43

were just excited to be a part of it. We were passionate

24:45

about what we were doing, what we were building, what we were

24:47

creating together. And but

24:49

realistically, it took a long time before

24:52

it really started to build scale and

24:54

the awareness really, really grew. And so

24:56

up until that point, like the team

24:58

was small. And because we spent the

25:00

first four years doing it without

25:02

taking out a penny, we had a lot of

25:04

other people, members of the community who saw what

25:06

we were doing, saw that we were doing it

25:09

for the love of it and decided that they

25:11

wanted to contribute and be part of it, too.

25:13

So, you know, the initial like I always

25:15

say, like, I raise the sum of its parts, like Paul

25:17

and I, yes, we connected initially

25:19

and we had this idea and we developed this

25:22

idea. But there's been hundreds and hundreds of people

25:24

that have contributed meaningfully over the years from the

25:26

first four or five years volunteers who were just

25:28

doing it because they love the music as well,

25:30

through to other people who have

25:32

had, you know, 10 plus year careers working

25:35

on the platform that they've all contributed in their own way.

25:37

And so, yeah,

25:40

I don't remember this, these moments

25:42

of like grand limitations, because it

25:44

always felt like we were just

25:46

growing at a natural pace and we didn't

25:48

have this external pressure to grow artificially

25:51

or to accelerate growth to hit certain

25:54

targets. And

25:57

I think it's very different now if Now

25:59

if you start. Hang. Out

26:02

of evil. if it looks good, other people

26:04

will look at that and they'll try and

26:06

raise money. Not, I do it faster than

26:08

you are. The world is different and like

26:10

we have seven or eight years are just

26:12

doing things our way and building trust and

26:14

building a community that I think is really

26:16

help sustain the brand and the company since

26:18

then. And because that's something it's very difficult

26:20

to buy or to manufacture and say actually

26:22

I think we. Started. At

26:24

at a time when. It.

26:27

Was okay if something. Took a while to gripe.

26:29

And. You know,

26:31

whilst we didn't take investment, we invested

26:33

so much time. I think the cost

26:35

was actually a personal cost. I remember

26:37

waking up at. Five. In the

26:39

morning. Working. Said. Two

26:42

three hours then going to the job that

26:44

was paying me. then at lunchtime been a

26:46

meeting and gardens grab but then doing more

26:49

work than finishing that job than going time

26:51

working til midnight when I am gonna miss

26:53

the as the as the project grew. It

26:56

just required more and more and more

26:58

of us and so you know, really

27:00

honest relationship to the time because my

27:02

relationship was with All right and. So.

27:05

We you know I'd I always say it. it

27:07

it happen so organically that I think if if

27:09

someone had told the nineteen year old version of

27:11

me. This is how side you're

27:13

gonna have to work for the next twenty

27:16

years for this thing to be. This thing

27:18

the nineteen year old me doesn't accept like

27:20

no way like it, but it happened organically

27:22

Lights. We just started this thing and we

27:24

committed to a community five. I'm going to

27:27

defy bits of content a day, polls in

27:29

a different bits of content, updates and less

27:31

to see what happens and Canada manageable, but

27:33

we were working so hard all of the

27:36

times, especially while to do another job as

27:38

well, that it had an impact on. Relationships.

27:41

Obviously and. And

27:43

like personal well being suicide committed to this

27:46

project and. And. I guess there's

27:48

like an unseen cost of that that. Adds.

27:50

Up over time. And. So

27:53

think that's where the. That's.

27:55

Where the impact as fell on a personal

27:57

level perhaps more than. A failure

27:59

on a business like because I think we actually

28:01

grew in the way that we. Hope to

28:03

grow. We're gonna grime thirty percent year on year.

28:06

Basically. Since the beginning cause it

28:08

aside. And. Said

28:10

business wise as well as felt like

28:12

the trajectory been consistent and solid and

28:14

but I think that level as commitment

28:16

an effort that was required on a

28:18

personal point of view. Ah,

28:21

That's. Whether that's where there's an unseen cost and

28:23

that's where I think actually there's some. You.

28:26

Know in retrospect this and funniest

28:28

things I wish I'd done differently.

28:30

And when things take a toll,

28:32

you know sometimes people act out.

28:35

And lash out and have these that is

28:37

he mentions of unseen. Unconscious

28:39

behaviors. With. Any moments

28:41

of shame and there any moments you're embarrassed

28:43

by in your leadership style in the way

28:45

that you showed up at work. The

28:49

one that hangs heaviest on my

28:51

heart is the fracturing as my

28:53

relationship with my toes under pull.

28:56

if he think of. This.

28:58

Is the longest standing relationship I've ever had in my

29:00

life. Because. We've basically spoken

29:02

to each other every day. So

29:05

more than two decades And. We.

29:07

Became very close as a result of

29:09

building this thing together and Poland. I

29:11

have very different people the in a

29:13

way that's beautiful complementary of what we're

29:15

building. But

29:18

about I'd say probably about. Seven.

29:20

Eight years ago, that relationship started

29:22

to fracture. And. Who

29:24

noticed. It

29:28

fractured before I think either of us really

29:30

noticed am of their can't speak for him

29:33

but it's. Looking back, it was

29:35

fracturing earlier than I noticed. And.

29:38

I wish I'd had the skills

29:40

and attributes to be able to

29:42

course correct that. Because.

29:45

He nods had that kind of deteriorated for. A.

29:47

Number a number of years

29:49

and. Some.

29:51

Me I think it was. Me: Not feeling

29:54

secure and else. In. myself that

29:56

i was projecting a lot of my

29:58

own insecurities on to him and not

30:01

being, not really having the skills or

30:03

the trust in myself or the

30:06

knowledge to be able to have

30:09

the sort of conversations that we needed to

30:11

have to acknowledge what was happening in

30:14

a way that would have allowed us to heal

30:17

together. And that's

30:19

actually happened later, like our relationship now is

30:21

in as good a place as I

30:23

remember it being. And I'm really proud of the work

30:25

we've done to get there. But it's really

30:27

the work we've done individually. And

30:30

I think

30:33

in retrospect, it's,

30:36

you know, I believe you can only really lead

30:38

others to the level that you can lead yourself. And

30:41

I, you know,

30:43

growing up starting this company really young, and

30:47

learning a lot just as I went, I

30:51

didn't have the ability to fully know who

30:53

I was or lead myself in a way

30:55

that allowed me

30:57

to best do that for others. And really, as

30:59

a CEO, that's essentially what we're trying to do,

31:02

right? Build an environment where other people can be

31:04

successful as themselves and feel proud of their contribution

31:07

to a mission they believe in. And

31:10

we did we did that successfully. But

31:13

if I look back on my

31:17

own journey within that, and when you talk about was

31:19

there something that I feel a sense

31:21

of shame for or disappointment? Yeah,

31:23

it's definitely it's the fracturing of that relationship

31:25

because it's, you know, it's

31:27

such a deep relationship as a result of the journey

31:29

that we've been on together. And

31:34

my own ego

31:36

in some way, limited

31:38

my capacity to

31:43

work through that with him in an honest and

31:45

vulnerable way. You know, I was able

31:48

to just look at the things that he wasn't

31:50

doing, or the things that frustrated me, you

31:52

know, without the sense of awareness that actually

31:54

these are the things that exist inside of

31:56

me, and I'm effectively projecting them onto him.

31:59

But What actually happened? Were you

32:01

able to communicate this stuff to him? Were you

32:03

just being passive aggressive to each other for years

32:05

until it boiled over? Yeah, like

32:08

definitely passive aggressive. You

32:11

know, just subconsciously

32:14

and consciously just like distancing

32:16

ourselves. And

32:19

I think there's also there's an unseen cost

32:21

within the business. You know, it kind of feels like

32:23

if you look at it in a family context, it's

32:25

kind of like, you know, mum and dad fighting and

32:27

mum and dad think that no one notices, but everyone

32:30

notices. And that's just

32:32

not helpful. And, you know,

32:34

I think great leadership in that moment would

32:36

have been, hey, like this thing, the reality

32:38

of this situation is this, like it

32:41

needs to change how we're going to deal with that. And,

32:44

you know, it went on way longer than it than

32:47

it than it should have. And yeah,

32:49

and I feel a real sense of sadness. Who called

32:51

her? Who who was

32:54

the person who clearly identified

32:56

that this was happening to create the moment of

32:58

change? What

33:02

a good question. I

33:09

don't know. We're

33:11

getting feedback from your colleagues, the two of you. Yes,

33:16

we were. I

33:19

think I think it was

33:23

becoming less enjoyable to

33:25

work together. That was a significant shift.

33:28

It had been really

33:30

enjoyable up until that point. And there'd

33:33

been a real mutual respect for the

33:35

complementary skills and characteristics that we both

33:37

have. And I just remember

33:39

that it just wasn't as

33:41

enjoyable anymore. And

33:45

and I would just

33:48

distance myself from from him

33:50

in in projects or in meetings or what

33:53

have you in a way that was

33:56

Not helpful in the fact that we were

33:58

growing this company together. And

34:00

I remember. Staff.

34:03

Used to talk about the fact that there

34:05

was. A disharmony

34:07

at the top. But we

34:09

wouldn't necessarily have any. We realize

34:11

how. Present.

34:14

A was. Or. The impact that

34:16

it was having and if we had I think

34:18

we would have dealt with it sooner and but

34:20

it wasn't There wasn't. On

34:23

I look back on it now and I

34:25

realized that we should is had to conversations

34:27

we ended up having in these facilitated environments

34:29

far sooner and I remember we used to

34:32

walk. We. Should just go on

34:34

walks at lunchtime together along the canal

34:36

and a London. And that's when we

34:38

started to have these deep conversations about.

34:41

The fact that we we wanted to really

34:43

happy ending what we were doing and things

34:45

that needed needed to change, but I can't

34:47

remember who actually brought it to the for

34:49

because it felt like a very much like

34:52

a gradual. but it's all that. we just

34:54

kind of been slipping into a place where.

34:57

It was. Not. Good for us

34:59

or the business reader be threatening to lightly the

35:01

company with a soul I love We don't sort

35:03

this out. Access to happen. When.

35:08

I remember at one point I thought, if

35:10

we can't sort this out. This

35:12

is Not working for me and.

35:16

Now I've given my life to these companies to

35:18

the prospect of stepping away. Like

35:20

a reason, credibly jarring for me. And

35:23

and I think that was one of the things that.

35:26

Highlighted. How much we needed to

35:28

do to actually repair this and that was

35:30

interview with it was in the best interest

35:33

of the company that we repair but also

35:35

in the best interest of ourselves because we'd

35:37

given so much to this and for it

35:39

and I the be as enjoyable as it

35:41

once was and and I think also just

35:44

up like the the pressure's in the stress

35:46

of running a company which gets to on

35:48

your one hundred a hundred and twenty full

35:50

time people as people who'd never been in

35:53

that situation before. That. Is

35:55

I often liken it to

35:57

a. I can lobster being

35:59

boiled. where over a number of

36:01

years the work just

36:03

gets more and more and more and

36:05

the responsibility gets more and more to

36:07

the point where you don't even necessarily

36:09

notice it. And it actually wasn't until

36:11

I stepped away that I actually felt

36:13

how much weight I've been carrying up

36:15

until that point in terms of responsibility.

36:18

And so I think the stresses of

36:20

just running this business also was taking

36:22

its toll on us personally, which made

36:24

it more

36:26

difficult for us to nurture

36:29

the relationship together. And I think in my own,

36:32

obviously I can only speak for me, but had

36:34

I been

36:36

willing to share that, or had I even been aware of it,

36:38

but had I been willing to share it and say like, I'm

36:42

really struggling here. Like this, this

36:44

feels like a lot and I'm

36:46

not sure where we go from here. I

36:49

think that would have created the space for perhaps

36:51

him to share something similar and for us to

36:53

work through it together. I

36:57

remember our last conversation and it feels

36:59

like you went through a real transition. I

37:02

want to know what about your

37:04

leadership style has changed

37:06

from who you were to who

37:08

you are now. So 20 years, how has

37:11

your leadership style changed? I

37:19

would say authenticity. I

37:21

don't think I knew who I was then, and I

37:24

certainly wasn't confident enough to show up

37:26

as myself. Whereas

37:28

now I feel more confident in who

37:31

I am and more

37:34

confident in my ability to actually just show

37:36

up in any given situation as that person

37:38

without the need to seek validation in terms

37:40

of how the other person might respond to

37:43

me. I'm

37:45

more confident in my self-assessment and actually being able

37:48

to speak to that, which I

37:50

don't think I was back then.

37:53

When I started Resident Advisor, I was only 19. So

37:56

We were really making it up as

37:59

we went along and I said, the

38:01

was and and I remember these moments

38:03

in as the company grew lab. Throughout

38:06

the year fifty one way to the I would

38:08

just be as may as I could bake and

38:10

then we would get to that. We would have

38:13

these kind of summit as we used to call

38:15

them. They would get the whole company together and

38:17

been at the beginning that was twenty people and

38:19

and at one point I was up to one

38:21

hundred people and I would stand up in front

38:23

of those people and I would guess kind of

38:25

a year and speech to kind of recap how

38:27

the year was and share some thoughts and. I

38:29

would. Essentially. Step

38:33

into the role of wise to see I

38:35

needed to be. And so

38:37

I would get up on stage and I

38:39

would talk with dramatic pauses and intonations and

38:41

hand gestures and things like that in and

38:43

it would be like an over prepared speech

38:46

or presentation and I would come off the

38:48

stage thinking of absolutely nailed that That's exactly

38:50

was he I should dates and then I

38:52

would have people come up to me and

38:54

say. Hey. Who's

38:56

that? And. Why?

38:59

Didn't realize I was doing was actually.

39:02

Stepping into a role. Rather,

39:04

Than remaining authentic to. so I was.

39:07

And I think that was because I

39:09

was not secure enough within myself to

39:11

actually stand there in front of everyone

39:13

just as myself. just as to see

39:15

Yahoo for Cozier built the company and.

39:18

On it's license I'm someone's anymore.

39:21

And. And the willingness

39:23

to. Actually, Just be

39:25

as authentically me as possible in any

39:27

given situation. Professional, personal, I would say

39:30

the biggest in my. Approach

39:32

to leadership. How much

39:34

about is a function of age and

39:36

maturity? Or.

39:38

The fact that. You know, running

39:40

narratives through our heads state you're successful

39:43

now is built a successful company so

39:45

there's more confidence to say. I've

39:47

made a I'm a success. I

39:52

think we were successful company. Even

39:54

when I wasn't able to be fully

39:57

authentic, Myself. Am.

39:59

To actually like fully. To I was

40:01

like the company was actually I'm

40:03

tracking really successfully. And.

40:07

I was tethering. A

40:09

significant portion of my identity and my confidence

40:11

to the success of the company. So.

40:14

Actually, like I was energized and

40:16

emboldened by. You. Know the external validation

40:18

that I would get a lot of people saying

40:20

wow, like this thing so big and you're so

40:22

young and it's so great and all of these

40:25

things would actually give me this. I

40:27

guess is kind of what artificial confidence. That.

40:29

Things were the with things were going well

40:31

and that I was doing a good job

40:33

and and it wasn't until. You

40:36

know I'm a last moments actually going through

40:38

a divorce that. I was forced

40:40

to essentially have a breakdown personally

40:43

and then rebuild myself. From that

40:45

point that I actually realize the

40:47

gap between. Who. I was

40:50

and I was pretending to be. And.

40:52

Saw it actually say it wasn't the

40:54

success of the business that actually drugs

40:56

that change or gave me the deeper

40:58

sense of confidence. It was actually. A

41:01

life event. That. Forced

41:04

me to. Self

41:07

in choir. And. Really

41:09

discover who? Who. I was into I am.

41:13

So divorce is obviously quite a big

41:15

like transition moment. Big change in your

41:17

life and people move through the change

41:19

either positive or negative is are they

41:21

yours has been very positive, very reflective.

41:23

I'm I'm wondering if you mentioned just

41:26

authentic. I'm wondering if you want showing

41:28

up as are authentic self our home

41:30

as well and that's what led to

41:32

conversations. A Divorce A big change in

41:34

your personal life. Yeah,

41:36

I don't think I was, but unknowingly.

41:39

So. I. Didn't

41:41

have a true sense of who I

41:44

was. said probably thirty five years and.

41:47

You. Know the thing that actually spock

41:49

the transition was. I in

41:51

ninety nine percent of people's phones. I

41:54

was Nick era. And.

41:56

At one point I ask myself the question,

41:59

who am I. without

42:01

this company and I realised I

42:03

couldn't answer it. And it was that

42:05

moment where I knew, okay, I need

42:08

to step away and I need to make some changes in

42:10

my life to actually be able to answer that question. And

42:12

as long as I'm tethered to it in a day-to-day capacity,

42:14

I'll never truly know. And so it

42:18

was, but the

42:20

moment of divorce really sparked that self-inquiry

42:23

that led me to that question. And

42:25

so, yeah, I think it was a

42:27

huge blessing. I remember my acupuncturist who

42:30

worked not far from here actually, she,

42:33

when I saw her the day after,

42:36

you know, it all happened, she

42:39

said, well

42:41

done, you've done this on purpose. And

42:44

I couldn't wrap my head around it at the time. And

42:46

I remember that was just ringing around and around and around

42:48

in my head. And I look back

42:51

on that now and she was right. You

42:53

know, I didn't have the, I think

42:55

for men, especially men who grow up

42:57

in, you know, patriarchal condition society, we

43:01

often need a moment of deep

43:05

distress to actually break

43:07

ourselves open and actually start

43:09

to really inquire as to

43:11

who we truly are. And

43:15

it's, you know, that moment was

43:17

so dark for me and I felt so lost because

43:20

I identified as a husband and

43:22

I was central to a great group of

43:24

friends and I was co-CEO of this company

43:26

and all of these things were that were

43:28

kind of shaping my identity to the world,

43:30

but also to myself kind of

43:32

evaporated in, you

43:35

know, in a split second. And I

43:37

felt hugely lost at that moment. I didn't know who

43:39

I was. And so the rebuilding

43:42

process kind of began at that moment. And

43:46

it was in hindsight, it

43:48

was a huge blessing because I don't think had I

43:50

not had that level of Distress

43:52

and felt as lost as I did, I

43:54

wouldn't have necessarily been incentivized in the same

43:56

way to, you know, fumble around in the

43:58

dark and find the. The ladder and

44:01

pull myself out. and it

44:03

was.e multiple year. Journey.

44:06

That. Actually really helped me learn more

44:08

about who I was, learn to trust

44:10

that and. Feel. Worthy

44:12

in that senses who I was

44:14

and side to combat your question

44:16

around. Not. Showing up authentically

44:18

at home, In in hindsight

44:21

know, but I wasn't conscious of of the time.

44:23

And. Am because I don't

44:25

think I had that like self confidence

44:28

with the myself to be fully myself

44:30

and and I think what happens in

44:32

that situation and I see it happening

44:34

lots of relationships is. When we're.

44:37

Either consciously or subconsciously.

44:39

Playing. A role within a relationship. We.

44:42

Never fully trust the last the comes from.

44:45

Because. Subconsciously we now it's not the authentic

44:47

version of us, liked it as a facade. I

44:49

guess. I you're playing a role exactly right. And

44:51

to be conscious or unconscious, it was unconscious for

44:53

me. But. I think the impacted my is.

44:56

We. Can never truly trust and love

44:58

the Comes Back because we're not been

45:00

fully authentic and. That

45:02

was a genuine had to. And

45:05

I am I. I'm grateful for that

45:07

for that moment, as. Difficult. As

45:09

it was and you mentioned earlier this sort of

45:11

showing off his yourself fifty one weeks of the

45:13

air and and the fifty seconds you've got your

45:15

in a keynote we can you go to present

45:18

in front of the company in your a different

45:20

person. So who are you in the fifty one

45:22

weeks like how are you describing yourself and is

45:24

that a good version of yourself anyway. Definitely

45:28

up. It's a it's as

45:30

a version. I'm I'm I'm

45:32

proud of them. I was

45:34

optimistic, playful, very personable, So.

45:37

Really able to. Get. On with

45:39

people. And.

45:41

Build. An environment where people felt.

45:44

Supported. And. Motivated.

45:47

To contribute to the project and so

45:49

I am proud of that version and.

45:52

There was. It. Was just

45:55

a real sense of and this is

45:57

could is outsell genuinely to me like

45:59

we just in this together and were

46:01

trying to build this idea and create

46:03

this company with this shared set of

46:06

skills and what. I.

46:08

That's why. Also weird when I kind of

46:11

went into this like C O mode where

46:13

I I I. I was kind

46:15

of stepping outside of myself to become something that

46:17

I thought I needed to be. That actually, throughout

46:19

the rest of the year I didn't think I

46:21

needed to be that. but. That's.

46:24

Borne out of just and insecurity or

46:26

camp stepping on the front of his

46:28

company. They need a a leader see

46:31

I so I bet a perform that

46:33

role. Where is actually if we just

46:35

read my since. The As

46:37

Optimistic. Not. Easily sometimes

46:40

charismatic. Version. Of myself than

46:42

it would have maintained that connection and actually. What?

46:45

I'm saying at that point would have landed. With.

46:48

Much more depth and realness. Said.

46:50

What happened in those moments? So sounds to me

46:52

like there was a feedback loop that really opened

46:54

your eyes. Enough. Fifty Second

46:57

week as we call it. That one week

46:59

where things were different. Was. That I

47:01

open a will happen. Who told you

47:03

the you one yourself. While. I

47:05

was actually came after. After.

47:08

The moment as divorce. I.

47:11

Was. Effectively broken open

47:13

and. But. I I

47:15

didn't leave the company at that point. I kept

47:17

working. And. And

47:20

so I would come into work and I would

47:22

be. Some. In a meeting

47:24

room with one or two colleagues? And

47:27

I was physically there. but not

47:29

mentally. That ends. I.

47:32

Was. No longer able like the.

47:35

That. The ceilings I had was

47:37

so strong and overwhelming with what was

47:39

going on for me personally that I

47:41

wasn't able to override them cognitively and

47:44

I might just start crying in the

47:46

middle of amazing and. And. Will

47:48

you cry previously? Not only on some

47:51

doubts, Css is at an. animal

47:54

i will you out with that

47:56

they like nightmare sit on the

47:58

home crying and And

48:00

so I would find

48:02

myself in a position where, you know, one

48:04

of my colleagues and we have to remember this is a

48:06

company where essentially colleagues become friends. We're

48:09

literally we're in this together and some of

48:11

my most deep and important friendships have developed

48:13

through people working at the company and me

48:15

working with them. And and

48:17

I would just start crying in a meeting and

48:19

and one of them would be like, you

48:21

know, are you okay or what's up? And

48:23

I was no longer

48:26

able to pretend that I was okay. And

48:29

so I would just have to

48:31

tell them or choose to just tell them how it

48:33

is. And what

48:35

I didn't realize at the time was that

48:39

by me as the co-leader of

48:42

the company being deeply

48:44

vulnerable in that moment, it

48:47

actually vastly increased the level of

48:49

trust and intimacy that I had

48:51

with people within the company. And

48:54

there isn't a high functioning leadership team out

48:56

there that isn't built on trust and intimacy.

48:59

And what I didn't realize was my

49:01

unwillingness to show those parts of myself

49:05

was actually creating a barrier

49:07

and distance that wasn't

49:09

conducive to building a great company. And

49:12

so by me breaking down in those moments and

49:16

actually revealing myself fully, it

49:19

then created the space for other people to do

49:21

the same in a way

49:23

that transformed many of my relationships, which

49:25

I thought were good, but they became

49:27

great as a result. And it was

49:29

in those moments and in those conversations

49:32

that I started to

49:34

get feedback about things like that

49:36

keynote address like who was that? Because all

49:38

of a sudden it created space for people

49:41

to actually give me honest

49:43

feedback in a way that I could truly

49:46

hear it and then receive

49:49

it openheartedly and then make the

49:51

necessary changes. So it

49:54

took my vulnerability and my

49:56

willingness to reveal who I was

49:59

and how I was. I was feeling to

50:01

create the space for other people within the company to

50:03

realise that it's safe for them to do the same.

50:06

So after two decades of

50:08

building the company from a

50:11

side hustle thing that is

50:14

just for fun because you want to get a race to

50:17

the largest independent ticketing website in

50:19

the world, definitely electronic

50:21

dance music website full

50:23

stop, right? Yeah.

50:27

Like building a really big company like that

50:29

over two decades, I suppose you've gone through

50:31

all of this work and sounds like you've

50:33

got to a really great point and you're

50:35

so in love with what you do

50:37

and the culture of the team where you've got to personally.

50:40

Why leave? Because

50:45

I couldn't answer that question of

50:48

who am I without RA and

50:51

I knew that I would never be

50:53

able to truly answer that question whilst

50:55

I was tethered to it on

50:58

a day to day basis. And when did that

51:00

question first appear in your head? 2018

51:05

probably. Same time as you were divorced. And

51:14

I'd also realised that around the

51:16

same time I realised that I'd never been

51:18

bored. You have

51:20

to remember I'm so committed to this project. I love

51:22

it so much. I'm so passionate about what we're building.

51:24

I love the team. I love what we're contributing to

51:26

the culture that in every

51:29

spare moment I

51:31

was working. It didn't feel like work, but

51:34

I was working. So even if I was at a festival

51:37

and there was a few hours before the group

51:39

were going to go

51:41

on an adventure or what have you, like

51:43

I'd be answering emails or if I'm on

51:45

holiday, like I'm waking up early answering

51:48

the emails just to like make sure that we're on top

51:50

of things and then I'm enjoying the holiday. And

51:53

it never felt like I was working. Like it just, it

51:55

was, I was so enmeshed with it. And

51:59

the. Then I had

52:01

a realization that I'd never been

52:04

bored and I really felt like there would be

52:07

a benefit to being bored and to feeling

52:09

bored. I knew that

52:11

whilst I was running it on a day-to-day basis,

52:13

I would never actually have the

52:15

ability to be bored for an extended period. So

52:18

actually when I stepped away, I actually committed

52:20

to being bored for three months and

52:23

that meant literally like going to the

52:25

beach without my phone, spending entire afternoons

52:27

on the couch, not reading, not looking

52:29

at my phone, not listening to music,

52:31

just fully immersing myself in the discomfort

52:33

of being bored and did

52:35

that for three months. That

52:38

was something that never could have happened if I was still

52:40

working on a day-to-day basis for the company. Then

52:43

it was at the end of that

52:46

three months that I was

52:48

like, okay, what now? What

52:50

will I do next? But

52:52

before you get to what now, what question did you answer?

52:55

So who did you find out you were? What

52:57

happened in a process like that? It's

53:03

very much an inward journey and

53:05

I remember actually the one

53:08

really significant moment of change actually was I

53:10

was sat in my first therapy session in

53:12

2018 and the therapist that

53:17

came very well recommended and I sat down

53:19

with him and I was explaining my situation

53:21

to him. I

53:24

was explaining things to him that felt really important to me and

53:27

he said, none of that matters and

53:29

I was like, what? He said, the only

53:31

thing that matters is your

53:33

relationship to yourself and

53:36

it took me three weeks of saying

53:39

that question again and again in my

53:41

mind to start to even realize what

53:44

that meant. Once

53:48

I did, I realized I

53:50

don't have a relationship with myself. I've got

53:53

a relationship with lots of other people. I

53:55

used to think I had 50 best friends. All

53:58

around the world, one of the most beautiful people.

54:00

beautiful things about running this international company, being

54:03

immersed in the culture that I love was

54:05

I developed these really beautiful relationships with people

54:08

around the world built on this shared passion

54:10

point. And, but I didn't

54:13

realize that there was an unseen cost

54:15

of giving myself to these relationships.

54:17

Like I used to not walk to the shops

54:19

to get milk without calling someone. And

54:21

it could be like someone in London, it could

54:23

be someone in Buenos Aires, whatever, but I was

54:25

always just in contact with someone else. I'd

54:27

go on holidays, never on my own. I was always with big

54:29

groups and I'd be the one organizing it. And,

54:32

and so it was a real

54:34

kind of course correction in terms of like how I do

54:37

life. And so it

54:39

was a realization that, oh, I don't have a

54:41

relationship with myself, but I need to, and

54:43

I want to. And then

54:45

that became the primary focus.

54:48

And that was the journey that I'm still

54:50

on very much. Yeah, I know.

54:53

I always think there's a really odd paradox

54:56

that, you know, we're suffering

54:58

from such a mental health epidemic.

55:00

And the core function

55:02

of that is loneliness. And

55:05

yeah, the great unlock to finding

55:07

inner peace and joy is ironically

55:10

solitude, you know, chosen

55:12

solitude. It's obviously a very different thing,

55:14

but it's so fascinating to me how

55:18

the two extreme ends of the

55:20

spectrum of happiness

55:22

and fulfillment and despair

55:24

and sadness is actually the idea

55:26

of being alone. Yeah.

55:28

It's just weird to me. But I mean, obviously many

55:31

things are paradoxes in life, but you know, that one

55:33

particular, you know, hearing you talk with

55:35

such passion about being given the space to be

55:37

alone and what that unlocks for

55:39

you. And just

55:41

the realization that one should

55:43

be alone and one should spend

55:45

time alone. And for the next

55:47

couple of years in that process, I actually swung

55:49

the pendulum far too much the other way. Like

55:52

how people often do, right? Yeah, I went from

55:54

being, you know, central to a big

55:56

group of friends, always with people, organizing big events,

55:58

all of these things. who just

56:01

literally like always being on my own, hardly

56:03

ever seeing anyone. And actually

56:05

learning to really love that in

56:07

a way that the old Nick never

56:09

could have imagined. And eventually

56:12

got myself to a point where I started to love it

56:14

too much. And I realized that I needed to actually like,

56:17

come back and find the middle

56:19

way. You mentioned, you started

56:21

the business at 19 years old and

56:24

it grew 30% year on year, pretty

56:26

much like clockwork until COVID. Obviously

56:30

COVID is a pivotal moment for a lot of

56:32

businesses and many failed, but I can't even imagine

56:36

when people can't go raving, they can't get tickets, they

56:38

can't go out, they can't do things. What it's

56:40

like for a company, for culture,

56:42

for you, your stress levels, your leadership style.

56:44

Can you take us back to that moment

56:46

in 2020, 2021? How

56:49

did you get through it? What was your

56:51

reality inside the business? So

56:55

overlaid with the significance of that moment, I

56:58

had already made my own mind up that

57:00

it was time to step away. So

57:03

I energetically to some degree,

57:05

I've already left, but

57:07

practically I'm still there because we're just like

57:09

integrating the succession plan. Then

57:12

COVID happens. And obviously

57:15

that's not the time to depart because it's kind

57:17

of all hands to the pump. And

57:19

so- It must've felt very better after

57:22

20 years finally getting to that moment and

57:24

there's a bloody pandemic. Bit

57:26

of one way of saying it. Yeah. It

57:32

was indescribably

57:36

hard. We lost 95% of

57:38

revenue overnight and

57:42

we are a sustainable

57:44

business economically. So we

57:46

need to earn one more pound

57:49

than we spend at the end of every year to remain

57:51

viable. And fortunately

57:53

we'd built something

57:55

of a chest. We had a

57:58

golden rule from the beginning where we always- wanted

58:00

to make sure that no matter what happens, we

58:02

had enough money in the account to pay three

58:04

months worth of salaries. So whether we were five

58:06

people, 10 people, we'd have it.

58:09

And luckily, we've managed to kind of

58:11

maintain that golden rule throughout our growth

58:13

and development. And that was essentially the

58:15

thing that saved the company, because

58:18

we actually had a pool of funds that we

58:20

could use to pay people when the literally the

58:22

revenue tap was almost completely turned

58:24

off. Do you want to do layoffs? I mean,

58:26

fundamentally, we did weren't doing

58:28

anything. We did we like,

58:30

but we really tried to you

58:34

have to remember, it's such a almost like

58:36

a family, this this company and and, and

58:39

the sense of kind of like devastation

58:41

and having to actually lay

58:44

off a huge number of people. And we're also you

58:46

have to remember, it was such a time of like,

58:50

unknowingness. Like, we didn't know really what was

58:52

happening. We didn't know how long it was going to last.

58:55

We didn't know what it meant for us, for

58:57

the culture, for the world. And

59:00

I just remember that it was

59:02

basically like every day just being

59:04

immersed in spreadsheets without CFO. And

59:06

we were just sat around and we were just like, you

59:08

know, the spreadsheets went from the

59:11

predominant color being black to the predominant

59:13

color being red, like very, very quickly.

59:15

And it was it was frightening to

59:17

think, okay, we could lose

59:19

this company here. And through

59:22

no fault of our own, really. And, and

59:25

I remember it was

59:27

just, you know, every day we were

59:29

working incredibly hard to like try and

59:31

figure out how we were going to

59:33

get ourselves through this, how

59:37

we could communicate to staff with

59:40

realness, that we

59:43

really don't know what's going on. But we are

59:45

committed to trying to do this in the most

59:47

array way possible. And then also

59:49

realizing that the only way we get

59:51

through this is actually by laying off some people because we

59:53

need to cut costs massively. And how did that go? We

59:57

ended up it was basically every week we're like, okay,

59:59

we think we can we can survive if okay, we're

1:00:01

just gonna let go of like 10 people we have

1:00:03

to do this week and then like a

1:00:05

fortnight would go past and we realized that the

1:00:08

trend was that this situation is going to continue. We're

1:00:10

not going to generate any more revenue than

1:00:12

another 10 people and so it was kind

1:00:14

of done in stages. I did like death by 1000 paper

1:00:17

cuts. Well, because

1:00:19

it meant that people we were paying people and

1:00:21

employing people for as long as we could to

1:00:23

try and manage things

1:00:25

to actually not

1:00:28

not have to actually just like cut

1:00:33

You know, you know just cut a huge like

1:00:35

half the company off It's it's so this

1:00:37

is really interesting because the the conventional wisdom

1:00:40

having been through this stuff myself and having

1:00:42

therefore asked a lot of people about how to deal with

1:00:44

this is Even

1:00:48

though it's the humane thing to do what you're describing

1:00:50

you're keeping people in jobs for as long as you

1:00:53

can etc culturally,

1:00:55

it's very hard for

1:00:57

a culture of people to Keep

1:01:00

getting that shock and disappointment whether it's in

1:01:02

your control or out your control obviously pandemic

1:01:05

you do get the Extra sensitivity

1:01:07

of people having the awareness that is out

1:01:09

of your control. However that

1:01:13

sort of emotional cultural

1:01:15

shock inside the company to keep

1:01:17

happening The conventional

1:01:19

wisdom is even though that's kind

1:01:21

actually that's the biggest killer to

1:01:24

company culture because it creates Just

1:01:27

an ongoing trauma over

1:01:29

and over and over and over again shrinking

1:01:31

and shrinking and shrinking versus the Incredibly

1:01:34

brutal way of doing the opposite which

1:01:36

is you cut half the team even though you don't need to

1:01:38

cut half the team at That point you sort of take the

1:01:40

opinion that this is what's going to happen The

1:01:43

writing feels like it's on the wall about this. It's

1:01:46

gonna fucking suck Either

1:01:48

way ten people tend to react badly if you

1:01:50

let go of ten people or fifty people right?

1:01:52

It's it's horrible for everyone. So

1:01:54

you deal with it once and you

1:01:57

deal with a culture fall out once

1:01:59

properly But you you at least give people the

1:02:01

kind of confidence that's not gonna happen again. So

1:02:03

this was the advice I was given. I had a whole bunch

1:02:05

of layoffs 18 months ago. I

1:02:07

didn't wanna do it and I didn't want this advice to be

1:02:09

true, but I asked enough people and that was the advice that

1:02:12

was given. And I was like, well, you know what? You don't

1:02:14

go and seek other people's experience if you're not gonna then take

1:02:16

it. And I did and it was probably the right decision. I'm

1:02:19

wondering if listening to this, you're

1:02:21

wondering on reflection, well, we

1:02:23

can compare. How was that experience? Do

1:02:25

you think there's some truth in the

1:02:28

experience share that I've offered? Is that

1:02:30

actually what played out or did it

1:02:33

go well? I

1:02:35

think there's wisdom in what you shared. The

1:02:38

difference for us was- Other people's wisdom. There's

1:02:40

wisdom in what other people shared. The

1:02:42

difference for us was our

1:02:45

workload went up because

1:02:48

all of a sudden there's millions

1:02:51

of people with tickets that want

1:02:53

their money back. There's event

1:02:56

organizers in the thousands

1:02:58

around the world that

1:03:00

are also scrambling themselves to either move their

1:03:02

shows online or cancel them or reschedule them

1:03:04

or what have you. We're

1:03:07

having to develop products with our

1:03:09

engineering team to be able to do

1:03:12

mass refunds, different types of refunds

1:03:14

for different situations. So the

1:03:17

company's workload skyrocketed

1:03:19

in that moment. So it wasn't a case

1:03:21

of actually, well, we can just like do

1:03:24

what you're doing and actually have this one

1:03:26

moment of deep distress and then hopefully beyond

1:03:28

that because we actually needed people

1:03:30

for as long as possible because

1:03:32

the moment we released 10 people because we

1:03:34

needed to to keep the company going, it

1:03:37

wasn't like there was that

1:03:39

like the workload that those 10 people were

1:03:41

responsible for then fell on the people remaining.

1:03:44

And so actually what was happening is the people who

1:03:46

were still in the business had to shoulder

1:03:48

the burden of work for a company

1:03:51

that was 100 people and then eventually became 50 people.

1:03:53

But there were still 100 people's worth of work there.

1:03:56

And so actually it was a really difficult

1:03:59

moment. culturally because there was a

1:04:01

huge amount of stress within the business because people didn't know if

1:04:04

the company was going to survive, people didn't know if they were,

1:04:06

if their jobs were going to be there in a few weeks

1:04:08

time and on top of that there was a huge amount of

1:04:10

work to be done. Yeah and they say

1:04:12

that growth solves all culture problems so 30% month,

1:04:14

you know year-on-year sorry

1:04:16

for 18 years

1:04:19

or 19 years whatever it is would

1:04:22

create a magical culture

1:04:24

where things seem to be fine.

1:04:26

So how did culture

1:04:28

feel when you kept having to do this? What was it

1:04:31

like for you? Was that actually a

1:04:33

culture shock for yourself as a leader

1:04:35

to witness a

1:04:37

different reality inside the

1:04:39

business? Hugely it felt like

1:04:42

a very well it was kind of, it was

1:04:45

interesting there was a spirit

1:04:47

of togetherness because there

1:04:51

was a real connectedness between the leadership team

1:04:53

and the company and people

1:04:56

could see how much

1:04:58

it was impacting us emotionally and

1:05:01

we were fortunate that it

1:05:03

happened after years

1:05:06

of our own personal development and a

1:05:08

willingness to truly feel comfortable sharing what

1:05:10

was alive in us and what was

1:05:12

happening. So we could

1:05:15

be very real in the impact that it was

1:05:17

having on us and actually share in

1:05:19

a way that staff could visibly see how

1:05:21

distressing it was for us and they could

1:05:23

trust the information that we were giving them

1:05:25

because it's also that the

1:05:28

communication element in a crisis is

1:05:30

all it's another challenge right not only you looking at

1:05:32

the numbers how we're going to navigate our way through

1:05:34

this but actually what are

1:05:37

we going to share with staff that's real

1:05:40

that gives them a true sense of what's

1:05:42

going on but doesn't spook them to the

1:05:44

point where they're completely panicked. Yeah and they

1:05:46

just weren't they weren't situations that we'd found

1:05:48

ourselves in before we have over

1:05:50

all the years had an incredible retention rate at

1:05:52

the company and so never was there a situation

1:05:55

where we needed to let a lot of people

1:05:57

go or think about how we manage that or

1:05:59

how we communicate that internally. So it was

1:06:01

a huge culture shock to actually all

1:06:03

of a sudden be dealing with a

1:06:05

essentially an existential crisis and on one

1:06:07

hand maintaining that optimism that

1:06:10

we're gonna get through this and we'll survive but

1:06:13

on the other hand realizing that

1:06:16

if this thing continues for

1:06:19

years RA will

1:06:22

no longer cease to exist because it's built

1:06:24

on there being

1:06:26

live events around the world. When

1:06:31

you think back to letting people go what

1:06:34

did you learn? Doesn't sound like you had to do

1:06:36

all of that much before like a lot of leaders

1:06:38

do so do you remember do you

1:06:40

have any tips I guess for

1:06:42

people to actually let go of

1:06:45

people empathetically? Honesty

1:06:51

and a willingness

1:06:53

to feel the

1:06:56

feelings that are associated

1:06:58

with that experience. So if you're

1:07:01

for example have like I like it

1:07:03

really impacted me emotionally and

1:07:06

rather than just burying that I would

1:07:09

allow allow that emotion to be present in the

1:07:11

conversations I was having with people because

1:07:13

that was that was real for me and

1:07:17

it was distressing to have to let people

1:07:19

go and so actually just

1:07:21

allowing that emotion to be present I

1:07:24

think created a

1:07:26

more real experience in in those

1:07:28

moments and you know perhaps it was different for

1:07:30

us because you know there was this big external

1:07:32

event and people naturally had an understanding that we

1:07:34

were under an enormous amount of pressure and this

1:07:36

needed to happen but

1:07:38

I think it was just honesty would be the core

1:07:41

message in that and honesty in terms of what

1:07:43

I'm feeling but also honesty about the situation and

1:07:45

why we're taking the decisions that we're taking. What

1:07:48

about leaving RA? So you know you

1:07:50

eventually fire yourself essentially what

1:07:53

happened how does that all how does that actually

1:07:55

play out you had a plan a pandemic

1:07:57

happened you must have been like maybe

1:08:00

on the harbing of doom. I probably shouldn't try this

1:08:02

again, but you go and do it again. So who

1:08:05

are you communicating this with? What is a succession plan? How

1:08:07

long does it take? How does one leave

1:08:09

a company? So we were

1:08:12

fortunate that fairly early on

1:08:14

in the years of advancing that we

1:08:16

had hired someone as our

1:08:20

CFO, who we

1:08:22

sensed could actually be a great leader for the company. And

1:08:25

then he transitioned to being COO and

1:08:27

he was instrumental in the work that

1:08:29

we did to guide us through COVID.

1:08:32

I'm hugely grateful to him. And

1:08:34

so we were working incredibly

1:08:37

closely. So his name's David with Paul,

1:08:39

David and myself. And we were

1:08:42

having open conversations at that point as

1:08:44

well. And so there was

1:08:46

an awareness that at some point I

1:08:48

would be stepping away. And actually Paul

1:08:51

and I chose to both step away

1:08:53

at the same time to essentially create

1:08:55

a space for the next generation of

1:08:57

the company to be successful. I

1:08:59

genuinely believe that the next phase of the company

1:09:01

can be its most successful with

1:09:04

us having stepped away. And I think

1:09:06

that's only possible if there's a full

1:09:08

break. And so I'm on

1:09:10

the board now, but I'm not day to day

1:09:13

involved. And there's an

1:09:15

understanding that the people who are in

1:09:17

charge of the company now have the

1:09:19

autonomy to make the necessary decisions to

1:09:21

grow the company. And in

1:09:23

my experience, people work best in

1:09:26

a way that I call a freedom within a

1:09:28

framework. So the framework is clarity on the mission,

1:09:31

clarity on the values, a real understanding of what

1:09:33

they're there to do. But there's enough freedom within

1:09:35

that where they feel supported by the framework, but

1:09:37

there's enough freedom where they know that they can

1:09:40

be autonomous to a level that allows them

1:09:42

to actually feel that sense of agency and

1:09:45

make meaningful decisions on a day to day basis.

1:09:47

And I think that applies whether you're at the

1:09:50

top of the company or the bottom of the

1:09:52

company. And so for Paul and I, it was

1:09:54

really important that we created the space for the

1:09:56

next group of people who are going to take

1:09:58

the company forward. to actually

1:10:01

feel that sense of autonomy, feel that sense of

1:10:03

agency that it's now theirs, and how

1:10:05

it grows and how developed is fundamentally

1:10:07

down to their work and their ideas. And

1:10:10

so the step away was actually designed

1:10:12

to create that environment.

1:10:14

And obviously, having half

1:10:18

the company depart in COVID, and then

1:10:20

slowly we started to rebuild, all

1:10:23

of a sudden, now there's an opportunity

1:10:25

to hire new people and bring

1:10:28

in a more diverse set of ideas, people

1:10:30

from different parts of the world and actually

1:10:33

build the company. It was interesting because it

1:10:36

was an opportunity to build a company that

1:10:38

would be fit for purpose in four or

1:10:41

five years' time, rather than continuing

1:10:44

to build the company in a way

1:10:46

that was fit for purpose, perhaps for

1:10:48

five years ago. Yeah, so a complete,

1:10:50

well, complete restructure out of

1:10:52

necessity, and actually it was a

1:10:54

restructure that was, we literally like

1:10:56

blank piece of paper. If we were, after COVID

1:10:58

blank piece of paper, if we were building this

1:11:01

company today, what does it look like? And

1:11:03

take all the names off and actually

1:11:05

just like, what do the teams look like?

1:11:07

What did the structure look like? And actually

1:11:10

that process allowed us to make

1:11:12

a significant structural change in

1:11:14

a really relatively quick space

1:11:17

of time that is actually

1:11:21

the core fundamentals of what underpins the

1:11:23

success of the business today. And

1:11:25

it's important to celebrate endings. So how did

1:11:28

you celebrate leaving? How did you

1:11:30

literally leave? It

1:11:33

was very, very surreal because it

1:11:35

was COVID. And so the

1:11:37

offices were closed. And so

1:11:39

I remember being on a Zoom

1:11:42

with all of the company on the gallery

1:11:45

view and just Paul

1:11:48

and I just giving a speech

1:11:50

to say goodbye and

1:11:52

then just closing

1:11:54

the laptop and

1:11:57

bursting into tears. I'm

1:12:00

I'm. Just. Completely on a man in

1:12:02

that moment and. It

1:12:04

was the surrealist way to. Close.

1:12:07

That chapter of something that had meant so

1:12:10

much to me he had yes or of

1:12:12

I've given my last to this project on

1:12:14

a given everything I had to it I'm

1:12:17

incredibly proud of it. But. I

1:12:19

realize that it's time to head

1:12:21

in another direction. And.

1:12:23

To. Say good bye. Through.

1:12:26

Usc Grain. Felt.

1:12:28

So. Disconnected.

1:12:30

From that reality. And as

1:12:33

dumb as Inhumane is, it was

1:12:35

really sweet. Because. It

1:12:37

wasn't representative of what this thing

1:12:39

meant to me and say literally

1:12:41

just closed the laptop. I

1:12:43

am get it's I think about it now. I just closed

1:12:45

the laptop and. And. Was

1:12:48

the goodbye. And. Yeah.

1:12:51

Thinking about it today, it's sad that that's how

1:12:53

it had to end just as a result of.

1:12:56

The. World at that time. Net.

1:12:59

I've you know, Fig. Are a fan

1:13:01

Fake Reva so but got some left and

1:13:03

may ahead of neighbor. Most of my wonderful

1:13:06

times in my life have been facilitated by

1:13:08

you subconsciously so as a fan authentically thank

1:13:10

you! So glad to have met you and

1:13:12

I'm very proud that we get share your

1:13:14

story on secretly to say thank you might

1:13:16

like so much album it's think I. Thought

1:13:21

was my conversation with knicks have been

1:13:23

cofounder of Resident Advisor. Found this episode

1:13:25

meeting an incredibly insightful and as someone

1:13:27

who's a huge fan of always Done

1:13:29

is as he been An honor to

1:13:31

have the chance to speak to neck

1:13:33

and he found value in this episode.

1:13:35

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