0:01

Due to the nature of this case,

0:03

listener discretion is advised. This

0:05

episode includes discussions of murder,

0:08

torture, and domestic violence. Consider

0:11

this when deciding how and when you'll listen.

0:19

When comparing the world's most notorious

0:22

killers, one metric usually comes up.

0:25

Victim count. I don't

0:27

enjoy the idea of turning real

0:30

people, real victims, into the equivalent

0:32

of sports stats, but that

0:34

doesn't change the fact that it's been happening

0:36

for centuries. So for the

0:38

purposes of this episode, let's take a

0:40

look at some famous names and their

0:42

numbers. Ed Gein had

0:45

two known victims. Jeffrey Dahmer

0:47

had 17. John

0:49

Wayne Gacy had 33, 28 of whom have

0:52

been identified. Ted

0:55

Bundy is a little tricky to nail down. He

0:57

had at least 30 known victims. But

1:00

some researchers believe he killed more than 100

1:02

people. An

1:04

inquiry found that Harold Shipman killed at least 215 and

1:06

as many as 260. But

1:12

Pedro Lopez usually tops most lists. He

1:15

was convicted of 110 murders and is

1:17

suspected of killing more than 300 people,

1:19

mostly women. His

1:25

whereabouts are unknown to this day.

1:29

Then there's Julia Tofana, a woman

1:31

born in 17th century Italy. If

1:35

the legends are true, she killed around

1:37

600 people. More

1:40

specifically, 600 men. I'm

1:45

Vanessa Richardson and this is Serial

1:47

Killers, a Spotify podcast. You can

1:50

find us here every Monday. Be

1:52

sure to check us out on Instagram at

1:54

Serial Killers podcast. We'd love to hear from

1:57

you. If you're listening on the Spotify

1:59

app, swipe up. and give us your thoughts. Today,

2:01

I'm joined by the hosts of Women

2:04

and Crime, Professors Megan Sacks

2:06

and Amy Schlossberg. They both teach

2:08

criminology and we're thrilled to have

2:10

them with us. Happy

2:12

to be here. Thanks so much, Vanessa. Yes, we're

2:14

thrilled to be here, Vanessa. Thank you for having

2:16

us. Thank you. After

2:18

this, Julia Tofana, rumored

2:21

to be one of the most prolific killers

2:23

of all time. This

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radio to learn more. Okay,

4:36

when you type the name Julia Tofana into

4:38

Google, these are some of the headlines that

4:40

come up. Julia Tofana,

4:43

serial killer or heroine. Julia

4:46

Tofana, the Italian serial killer

4:48

who became a legend. Meet

4:51

the woman who killed over 600 men. The number

4:53

600 comes up

4:56

a lot, but there's also Queen Pin

4:58

of the criminal magical underworld. The

5:02

Angel of Death with a Vile

5:04

of Vengeance. Clearly,

5:06

a lot has been written about Julia

5:08

Tofana in the centuries since she lived.

5:11

Had either one of you heard of this story before?

5:14

Vanessa, I have never heard of this story, I

5:16

must say. I thought having taught

5:18

serial offenders and women in crime, I would

5:20

have, but no. Okay,

5:23

I feel a lot better because neither

5:25

had I. I had never heard of

5:27

it, but I find it absolutely fascinating.

5:30

So how about I walk listeners through the

5:32

story as it's popularly told on the

5:34

internet, podcasts and YouTube channels before handing

5:36

the reins over to the two of you

5:38

for an examination of the facts. Sounds

5:41

good to me. Sounds perfect. Okay,

5:43

so it starts in Sicily, an

5:46

island just off the coast of mainland Italy

5:48

at the tip of the boot. Julia

5:51

is born in 1620. Before she turns

5:55

14, her mother, Telfania D'Adamo,

5:58

poisons and kills her mother.

6:00

husband, presumably Julia's father. Hylphania

6:03

is put on trial for

6:05

murder, found guilty, and executed

6:07

by city officials. But

6:10

the recipe for her poison passes

6:12

on to Julia and eventually bears

6:14

their name, Aqua Tofana.

6:17

The recipe is unknown, but it's

6:19

rumored to be made with an

6:22

arsenic base that's mixed with special

6:24

ingredients that mask its taste and

6:26

make it completely untraceable in death.

6:29

Its symptoms even mimic common

6:31

ailments, sore throat, stomach pain,

6:34

vomiting, diarrhea. After

6:36

Tofania's death, Julia flees Sicily

6:39

with some of her mother's accomplices. She

6:42

pops up in Naples for a while

6:44

and ultimately settles in Rome. That's

6:47

where she launches the business that eventually

6:49

makes her famous, selling seemingly

6:52

ordinary cosmetic and beauty products

6:54

to women. Creams, oils, powders,

6:56

most are completely harmless, but

6:59

for the desperate customer hoping to

7:01

escape the terrors of a loveless

7:04

or abusive marriage, Julia

7:06

keeps tinctures of Aqua Tofana

7:08

on hand. She

7:11

packages the poison in ornate glass

7:14

vials that can be inconspicuously placed

7:16

on any aspiring widow's

7:18

vanity without raising suspicions from

7:20

their husband. Almost

7:23

four to six drops are capable

7:25

of killing a full-grown man,

7:28

but with proper dosing, clients

7:30

can extend their victims' suffering for

7:33

months at a time, long enough

7:35

for them to say, get their affairs in

7:37

order. Some people refer to these

7:39

kinds of poisons as inheritance

7:41

powders. Julia

7:45

doesn't operate alone. She acts as the

7:47

ringleader of a network of women. They

7:50

build a booming business with clientele that

7:52

comes from all walks of life, from

7:55

the impoverished on up to the social

7:57

elite, and things carry

7:59

on successfully. for years until

8:02

one day word gets out and

8:04

everything comes crashing down. Roman

8:07

officials put a warrant out for Julia's

8:09

arrest. She evades capture

8:11

for a while finding sanctuary among

8:13

nuns. But soon enough

8:15

a rumor spreads through the city

8:17

that Julia poisoned the local water

8:20

supply. Sanctuary goes

8:22

out the window. Officials rip her

8:24

away from the convent and lock her

8:26

up. Under torture

8:28

Julia confesses to killing over 600

8:30

men between 1633 and 1651. Like

8:32

her mother she's

8:38

executed along with a handful of

8:40

her accomplices. But her

8:43

poison and its legacy endures.

8:46

Roman officials post warnings about

8:48

aqua tofana all around the

8:50

city. The name enters the

8:52

cultural zeitgeist and spreads around

8:54

Europe eventually evolving into an

8:56

umbrella term for all kinds of

8:58

lethal poisons. It

9:00

actually becomes so widely used that the

9:03

name aqua tofana starts to appear in

9:05

medical textbooks by the early 20th century.

9:07

But maybe

9:09

the most famous mention of aqua tofana

9:12

happens in the fall of 1791 more

9:16

than a century after Julia's

9:18

execution. Ahead of

9:20

his death renowned composer Wolfgang

9:23

Abadeus Mozart blames aqua tofana

9:25

for his failing health. According

9:28

to one recollection he said quote

9:31

I feel definitely that I will not

9:33

last much longer. I am

9:35

sure that I have been poisoned. I

9:38

cannot rid myself of this idea.

9:41

Someone has given me aqua

9:43

tofana and calculated the precise

9:45

time of my death.

9:50

These days most researchers agree that

9:53

Mozart wasn't poisoned. He likely died

9:55

from an infection that spread to

9:57

his kidneys. But The

9:59

fact that on his that bad

10:01

off what to fun crossed his

10:03

mind shows the type of impact

10:06

it had. It's still fear mostly

10:08

among men for centuries and to

10:10

this day science hasn't been able

10:12

to replicate anything that rivals it's

10:14

reputation. Which is one

10:17

of the reasons people question whether

10:19

the stories are true. Did as

10:21

seventeenth century Italian woman create the

10:23

perfect weapon? Did her daughter use

10:26

it to kill over six hundred

10:28

men? Double the victim

10:30

count of history so called

10:32

most prolific serial killer was.

10:35

Juliet to Fauna a hero

10:37

or villain. Or. A

10:40

victim. Professors. Begun

10:42

Saxon Amy Sloths Bird From Women and

10:44

Crime are here to help us answer

10:46

those questions and. More. Hello

10:48

again Megan Amy I love Vanessa! Thank

10:50

you for having us. Before.

10:53

We begin, nothing more About

10:55

To Cover would be possible

10:57

without the research of to

10:59

scholars Mike-and crazy Monson. They

11:01

spent years cracking down historical records

11:04

to piece together the most complete

11:06

picture. Of the truth. Guess

11:08

if this doesn't interest you, definitely

11:10

check out their work. Absolutely. I

11:12

couldn't. Agree more. Okay,

11:14

so where do we begin? Well. I

11:16

want to start with feel Fine Yet

11:19

the Adama with the alleged creator of

11:21

awkward to fauna She was by all

11:23

accounts one hundred percent real. She.

11:26

Was put on trial in Palermo,

11:28

Sicily in July. Sixteen, Thirty three.

11:30

Found. Guilty of murder by poison

11:32

and sentenced to die. Did.

11:35

She kills her has been. A

11:37

sink for debate. But when I tell

11:39

you this woman was killed in the

11:41

most horrific manner possible. Amy. I

11:43

mean it. Okay, so how did she

11:45

die? While. Accounts Very

11:47

Sicily was under Spanish rule at

11:49

the time. City officials either stuff

11:51

turn into a canvas sack and

11:54

through her off the roof of

11:56

the Bishops Palace onto a street

11:58

lined with talking spec. Leaders.

12:00

Or. She. Was hanged.

12:03

Drawn and quartered, Which

12:05

for those who don't know what that

12:07

entails, she would have been tied to

12:09

the back of a horse drag to

12:11

the gallows. Hangs. Until she

12:13

was almost dead decent bowels

12:15

and then decapitated before having

12:17

her limbs attached to for

12:19

horses that would then be

12:21

driven in. Four different

12:23

directions. That sounds

12:25

absolutely horrific. Yes, it's not like

12:28

the Spanish Viceroy doled out these

12:30

kinds of punishments to the average

12:32

killer for execution was meant to

12:34

send a message that poisoners were

12:36

basically the scum of the earth

12:39

and deserves to be treated as

12:41

such. Was. Poisoned as gender

12:43

then as it is today. Oh

12:45

definitely. It was viewed as a

12:47

weapon employed by women against men.

12:50

And. How is the message received? Feel fine

12:52

He was real but it up with a

12:54

foreigner. Carry on through her daughter Julia. Well

12:57

it's up in the air whether Julia was

12:59

actually t of on his daughter. But.

13:01

Yes, awkward Tofana lived on.

13:04

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14:27

so let's rewind a bit. Feel.

14:30

Funny A D Adama was real. She

14:32

was executed in Sicily and sixteen thirty

14:35

three for using a poison that allegedly

14:37

killed it's victims with in three days.

14:40

But she was the only poisoned. Or put

14:42

to death around this time. A

14:44

little over a year earlier,

14:46

a woman named Francesca Lasorda

14:48

was executed for essentially the

14:50

same crime. And. It's

14:53

since been assumed that they

14:55

were accomplices who's making these

14:57

assumptions. Well. Most of what

14:59

we know about these women comes from a

15:01

man who investigated. Their cases much later

15:04

In Eighteen Eighty One. His

15:06

name was Salvatore Salah a nice

15:08

marino and he was a Sicilian

15:10

and to query which is I

15:12

understand it is like historians and

15:14

archaeologists and an arthritis. Rolled into

15:16

one. In eighteen eighty

15:19

one Salvatore that his hands on a

15:21

bunch of records written at the time

15:23

of Francesca and see a fondness trials.

15:25

Those. Papers apparently referred to the poison

15:28

the women used as. Auckland,

15:30

To Funnier which to Salvador suggested

15:32

feel funny of was the mastermind

15:34

behind it and Francesca the accomplice

15:36

I by that logic, solitaire is

15:38

also the person who first suggested

15:40

Juliet and feel fine you were

15:42

relayed it. He pointed to the

15:45

similarity of their names. He claimed

15:47

that it was common for kids

15:49

to use their parents christian name

15:51

as a surname. Or. Do

15:53

other people say generally people think

15:55

it's a flimsy connection? But.

15:58

Julia was real. Totally. And

16:00

chances are, she knew to your phone. Yeah,

16:03

It's. Unclear whether she ever use the

16:05

name Tofana either generally and life

16:07

or for her business. What? Probably

16:09

happened was some historian gave her the

16:11

name after she died. Her

16:14

father's surname was actually Monday Rd.

16:16

She's. Reference in records and

16:18

transcripts as Julia Sicily Ana

16:20

meaning Julia the Sicilian. Some.

16:23

Call her last a Lada or.

16:25

The Astrologer. Others. Simply

16:28

Donna Julia. In. His

16:30

book, the Black Widows of the

16:32

Eternal City cried Monson estimates she.

16:34

Was. Born in around Fifteen

16:37

eighty one. Which puts her

16:39

at about fifty at the time to have

16:41

fun yet was executed. What?

16:43

Else do we know about Julia? Well,

16:45

her family must have been relatively well

16:47

off when she married a guy in

16:49

Sicily. Her dowry included a bunch of

16:51

cash and to town houses on a

16:53

square. In Core Leone, So. It

16:56

was nothing to scoff at. Notably,

16:58

when Julia tied the knot, she

17:00

became a stepmother to young woman

17:03

named Journey Months fauna. War

17:05

and Zero Lama Spar depending on which

17:07

source you're looking at. Were.

17:09

Going with Zero. By.

17:12

Journeyman's own account. Donna Julia was

17:14

really a great step mother who

17:16

taught her everything she knew. Which.

17:19

Was a lot. Done. A Julia

17:21

was what Italians at the time calls

17:23

a wise woman. That was

17:26

the seeds like figure from peddled

17:28

secrets and had almost supernatural powers.

17:30

People went to her for advice

17:32

for readings, for medical cures, For.

17:35

All kinds of stuff, some even

17:37

dealt in real. Where.

17:39

People are afraid of her. Well done

17:41

is a term of respect and Italian

17:43

like madam or lady So few isn't

17:45

the right word That very early on

17:47

in Sicily rumors started to follow Donna

17:49

Julia. Like when a wealthy

17:52

bachelor suddenly and unexpectedly died after

17:54

arriving in Sicily. People. Suspected

17:56

Julia had a hands in it. The.

17:58

Police learn with ice. For and

18:00

cash were mysteriously missing. Sounds.

18:03

Like speculation to me. To. Be

18:05

fair, it was speculation based on

18:07

rumor, but there were. A lot more

18:09

rumors where that came from. One.

18:12

To Julia end up in Rome. By. Craig

18:14

Months Timeline: She didn't waste and

18:16

self heal. Funniest execution. To flee

18:19

Sicily, He places her and journeymen

18:21

in Rome by sixteen twenty. Four

18:23

years before to your family

18:25

as execution. What? Prompted them

18:27

leaving. While. Monson says they

18:30

fled Sicily just steps ahead of the

18:32

law. They took the recipe for awkward

18:34

tofana with them. Yes,

18:36

Evidence suggests Donna Julia took that knowledge

18:38

with her and eventually taught others how

18:40

to make it. Okay, Julia

18:43

enduring Nema arrives in Rome and

18:45

sixteen twenty four. What? Happened

18:47

next. They. Got in

18:49

touch with your name as

18:51

uncle Andrea who ran and

18:53

similar circles. He gave astrological

18:55

readings, dabbled in fortunetelling and

18:57

halfwit months, and describes as

18:59

a shadowy reputation. He apparently

19:01

gained a lot of notoriety

19:03

for predicting the next Pope.

19:06

And. Okay, what does that mean? Like she told

19:08

some guy he was going to be Pope

19:10

one day and that guy who was a

19:12

cardinal of the time became the Pope. Pope

19:15

Urban the Eighth, to be specific.

19:18

So. Just luckier. Or maybe something

19:20

more. When. Did the family business

19:22

go from sooth saying to acquittal? fun of.

19:24

Well. I much rather was ever a sharp

19:27

transition. It's not like these women had

19:29

store fronts Up with the fauna was

19:31

always just one of their many products

19:33

and services. They charge for anything people.

19:35

Would pay for cook. Ware,

19:37

perfumes, oils, charms, creams,

19:39

powders, sewers, information, you

19:41

name it, and their

19:43

customers generally came to

19:46

them. Through referrals. That's

19:48

how these networks of women kept a

19:50

low profile. It was all about connections.

19:53

And interesting li enough. The only reason

19:55

they could make up so fauna in

19:57

Rome was because of the connection they

20:00

had was. In arsenic dealing

20:02

Priest. Okay, so who's this

20:04

placed? His. Name as a father

20:06

Girolamo and father Girolamo. Brother worked as

20:08

an apothecary so he would have sold

20:11

arsenic. But do we know how Julia

20:13

and her associates package act with a

20:15

finer? I'm wondering if that part is

20:18

true. It is. They bottles it and

20:20

glass jars and gave them speak labels

20:22

that said mana of St. Nicholas on

20:24

them that was the name of a

20:27

real and popular oil sold at the

20:29

time. Julia. And her

20:31

why swimming claimed it removed blemishes,

20:34

But. Obviously up with so fond I did

20:36

much more than that. Do. We

20:38

know any the ingredients besides arsenic. My

20:41

test gets into this. It's believed the

20:43

solution had amps mony and lead in

20:45

it as well. Maybe. Mercuric chloride.

20:48

But there's been a lot of

20:51

speculation specifically around what could have

20:53

mass the are cynics metallic taste

20:55

and made the poison so undetectable.

20:58

Different accounts claim it

21:00

contain told Flax Spanish

21:02

fly, Snapdragon extract, Penny

21:04

Ward and more. Some.

21:07

Even claimed it had the spit of mad

21:09

men in it. Okay,

21:13

I get the business. It was all

21:15

intentionally amorphous and secretive. But when did

21:17

Julia get caught? What are the records

21:19

tell us about That will? This is

21:21

where we take our biggest. Departure.

21:24

Julia. Might never have been caught. In.

21:26

Sox apology in the Middle Ages

21:28

and renaissance. My. Dash wrote

21:30

that she died in sixteen fifty

21:33

one, probably in bed without ever

21:35

being convicted of a single crime.

21:37

Well. Before any mention of murder

21:40

or six hundred men. Crag.

21:42

Monson listen even more precise.

21:44

dusty. January seventeenth.

21:47

Sixteen Fifty One. How. Old

21:49

the to have been. if she was

21:51

born around fifteen eighty one as months

21:53

and estimates she would have been about

21:55

eighty, which seems like a long life

21:57

to me, especially for a seventeenth century

21:59

a. In Woman Who. Lived through at

22:01

least one plague a year. But.

22:04

This is where I pass the baton. To you

22:06

any. You. Researched the next part.

22:08

The business of selling awkward to

22:10

fauna didn't stop after Julius death.

22:13

Did. It know it. did it.

22:15

Julia, stepdaughter and protege, your Nema

22:17

steps in as the new ringleader.

22:20

She. Took everything she learned from her

22:22

uncle Andrea and from her stepmother and

22:24

put it into practice. And. Believe

22:26

it or not, for those living in

22:28

Rome at the time, her reputation eventually

22:30

overshadowed Julius. Rumors. Eventually spreads

22:32

as you practice witchcraft. spoke to

22:35

demons and could see into the

22:37

future. Like. Her uncle she made

22:39

easy predicted the election of a pope. And.

22:41

What set during him apart from the

22:44

other women in her industry was the

22:46

quality of her connections. She. Married

22:48

a Florentine aristocrat, was brought her

22:50

into some wealthy and influential social

22:52

circles. I'm. Talking about duchess

22:54

is why so and people who

22:57

wanted to hold public office. Some.

22:59

Of rooms. A lead even sent carriages to

23:01

pick her up and bring her to their

23:03

houses, which is the equivalent of sending a

23:05

stretch limo today. And. By all accounts

23:08

sure, Nema projected an air of the

23:10

utmost piety. She attended mass

23:12

and one on religious pilgrimages. She

23:14

apparently even had a Franciscan friar

23:17

dedicated to hearing her concessions. I'm

23:19

assuming she wasn't totally honest in

23:21

those concessions. I. Think that safe to

23:24

say. Did. Journey. My husband know what

23:26

his wife did for a living. That's.

23:28

Harder to answer. She died before she

23:30

was caught. At

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So detour Nema poison her husband.

24:40

Maybe, but probably not. We don't know

24:42

how far her influence reached that he

24:44

died during a played year and they

24:46

weren't in the same town when he

24:48

passed. He was on the run,

24:50

hiding from creditors. Am. Sorry

24:52

what? Yeah. Sort of

24:55

them was apparently a playboy types who blew

24:57

his money on food, wine a guess and

24:59

sex. Workers. To afford his

25:01

lifestyle, he took on a ton of that's

25:03

an old, a lot of people, a lot

25:05

of money, He. Went on the run

25:07

wild year Nema raise their two kids. Sounds

25:10

like a decent guy. As

25:14

cried months and points out in his

25:16

book, tyranny must marriage might have them.

25:18

One reason why she was so sympathetic

25:20

to women in similar or worse circumstances.

25:22

She. Was definitely enough for the process,

25:25

but some accounts claim that she handed

25:27

out bottles of Awkward to Fauna free

25:29

of charge to women in especially desperate

25:32

situations. When. A journey mug get

25:34

caught. Sixteen. Sixty Nine. One.

25:36

Of your name as associates was a

25:39

woman named Giovanni. the grandest. Giovanna was

25:41

a widow many times over. Suspicious.

25:44

but the one. Where

25:46

dear Nema was from Sicily and cater to

25:48

the elite few on it. Was born in

25:51

Rome and dealt with a more impoverished clientele.

25:53

And. By sixteen, sixty nine, Giovanni

25:55

herself was barely scraping by. Today.

25:58

No one really knows. Word of awkward to

26:01

finance first reach city officials. By.

26:03

Some accounts a priest might have leaked

26:05

something he heard during concession. But.

26:07

Regardless of how it happens, court

26:09

records indicate that city officials launched

26:11

a sting operation to take down

26:13

the network a so called Wise

26:15

Women. And. Giovanni was their

26:17

way in. In.

26:20

This version officials played the long game.

26:23

They. Found a woman to act as they're more. They.

26:26

Gave her an alias and set her up in a house

26:28

in a nice part of town. They.

26:30

Had er visit Giovanna asking

26:32

for astrological readings. But. Over

26:34

time she started to drop hints that her

26:36

marriage was bad and she was unhappy. One.

26:39

Thing led to another and suddenly

26:41

Giovanni was bringing up awkward Tofana.

26:43

They settled on a price and agree on a

26:46

time and place to handle the exchange. When.

26:49

Giovanni showed up and handed over the

26:51

bottle to witnesses. Jumped out from there

26:53

hiding spot under a bed and the

26:55

police chief and notary came out from

26:57

behind a curtain. She of on I

26:59

was then arrested and thrown into a

27:01

prison chamber. It was all

27:03

very dramatic and the classic sting

27:05

operation. Did. Anyone confirm though

27:07

that it was actually poison? She sold?

27:10

Yeah, Unfortunately, they tested it on domestic

27:12

animals and the animals died. Oh

27:14

that's hard to argue with. And.

27:17

It didn't take much to elicit a concession from

27:19

G of Honor. As. Soon as she

27:21

realized how much information city officials already

27:23

knew she caves and name names. She.

27:26

Said Father Girolamo supplies arsenic. Donna Juliet

27:28

taught her how to make it before

27:30

she died of course. And then there

27:33

are three other ringleaders besides her. and

27:35

during Uma she gave up their names

27:37

to because she of on a made

27:39

it clear she didn't want to be

27:42

tortured death she could handle but she

27:44

wanted as little suffering as possible. Her.

27:46

Life had been unkind enough. To.

27:49

The other women confess. Everyone.

27:51

Except year and she denied all

27:53

accusations the matter what horrors or

27:55

evidence was placed in front of

27:57

her even after her house servant

27:59

betray her by supplying police a

28:01

details about her criminal activities. And.

28:04

Technically under Roman lot the time a

28:06

person couldn't be executed if they didn't

28:08

confess. I'm. Assuming they use

28:10

torture to extract any remaining concessions.

28:13

No. Not in this case in his book

28:15

months and suggests that the said something to

28:17

do with the women's reputations. Officials

28:20

fear that their supernatural abilities could

28:22

maybe allow them to withstand extreme

28:24

pain, and their prospective torturers were

28:27

afraid of looking stupid. A.

28:29

Powerful tool in this case. But.

28:31

Ultimately, it didn't matter of as your

28:33

name. I never made a concession. The

28:35

Pope wrote a decree that allowed officials

28:37

to go around the law and execute

28:39

her anyway. The same Pope who's rise

28:41

to power some accounts claimed she predicted.

28:44

And in addition, to the Fi ringleaders,

28:46

officials rounded up a bunch of their

28:48

accomplices and dozens of their customers as

28:50

well. For. Trial ultimately centered

28:52

around forty six murders. The.

28:55

Five Ring leaders including your Nema

28:57

and Giovanna. Or hang their front

28:59

of an especially large crowd in

29:01

July. Sixteen, Sixty Nine. Six.

29:03

Of their accomplices and more than forty

29:05

of their customers are given life sentences

29:07

and prison. But. Many more like

29:09

arsenic dealing priest got off scot free.

29:12

It's. Possible to priests died before the trial

29:14

and therefore couldn't have been punished. But.

29:17

The Pope had a bunch of

29:19

name's removed from trial records. mostly

29:21

socially prominent aristocrats. So. Do

29:23

we know how the number six hundred came about?

29:26

This. Is where things get a little complicated. There.

29:28

Are accounts that people have pointed to

29:31

that could suggest Donna Julia or Julia

29:33

Tofana didn't die And sixteen sixty one.

29:35

For example, a French Dominican missionary wrote

29:38

about an old poisoner who was captured

29:40

and executed in Naples. And seventeen, oh

29:42

nine later, the doctor to the Holy

29:45

Roman Emperor wrote about a poison or

29:47

who use Aqua Tofana to kill more

29:49

than six hundred men, women, and children.

29:52

In Naples. To the either one

29:54

mention the name know they only mentioned awkward

29:56

to fauna. Later. Secondary sources just

29:58

attach Julie his name to the A. That

30:02

said, a German travel writer and

30:04

archaeologists wrote about an old little woman

30:06

who was imprisoned in Naples as

30:08

late as seventeen thirty. He called her

30:11

an incentive poisoner who belongs to

30:13

some religious sisterhood, and claim that people

30:15

lined up to visit her in

30:17

prison. He specifically use the

30:19

name So Fauna. Okay, if

30:21

that was her, how old would she have

30:23

been at? like over a hundred, right? At

30:26

least. Yeah, The explanation that

30:28

makes the most sense to me is another

30:30

woman who sold the poison adopted in a

30:32

cell phone is. Probably would have

30:35

been good marketing given the brand recognition.

30:37

Exactly this sixteen fifty nine trial

30:39

made awkward Tofana unbelievably same as

30:42

Roman officials plastered notices all around

30:44

the city warning the public of

30:46

the threat oppose morning your wife's

30:48

are trying to kill you and

30:51

steal your money. Basically.

30:53

Yeah. And. Given awkward to fun.

30:55

As for ported properties, everyone will think you

30:57

died of a perfectly ordinary disease and you

31:00

won't see it coming. In

31:04

no small way, a little vial of liquid

31:06

threatened to up and what was seen as

31:08

the natural order of things. Men: Ruled

31:10

over women who were little more than

31:12

possessions. Might. Das compares the

31:14

evolution of awkward to find his

31:16

reputation to a moral panic intentionally

31:19

stoked by patriarchal systems to send

31:21

a message. Was. Awkward

31:23

Tofana as powerful as a rumor

31:25

suggested. Given. Up Modern

31:27

science still can't make a slow

31:29

acting, tasteless, undetectable poison. Probably.

31:32

Not. A knowledgeable corner probably

31:34

would have been able to tell their victims

31:36

had died by arsenic poisoning or it's also

31:38

not like these women. Weren't suspected of

31:41

wrongdoing before the sixteen Fifty Nine

31:43

trial. People. Gossips, rumors existed. It

31:45

just took the law a while to

31:47

catch them. Contacts. Is

31:49

also important. As we've mentioned a

31:51

few times, these Lies women dabbled in a

31:54

lot of different arts, and many of them

31:56

were well respected. They were also likely part

31:58

of a much larger sub culture. There. Might.

32:00

Dash borrowed the term from No

32:03

Magical Underworld from historian Lin Wood

32:05

mile an hour to describe it.

32:07

He. Wrote quote. The. Manufacture

32:09

and sale of poisons was only

32:11

one small part of activities of

32:13

an extensive underworld that specialize in

32:16

the supply of services that could

32:18

not be offered by the established

32:20

church and state. This. Community

32:22

may has been at least two

32:24

hundred strong in mid seventeenth century.

32:26

Rome. And. Numbered among it's

32:29

members: wise women, astrologers,

32:31

alchemists, Confidence. Man

32:33

which is shady Oppose the

32:35

carries and Backstreet abortionists. Who.

32:38

Between them, told fortunes and

32:40

cast horoscopes, sold love potions

32:42

and lucky charms short to

32:44

steaks and offered to dispose

32:46

of unwanted babies and unwanted

32:48

husband's is is. In addition

32:50

to ending men wise women

32:52

also brokered marriages. Wow!

32:55

I've just been sitting here this whole

32:57

time listening to the two of you

32:59

and all I can say is this

33:01

strange little slice of history is fascinating.

33:03

I'm not sure I'd ever want to

33:05

be a part of this criminal magical

33:07

underworld, but I love that it existed

33:09

and I can't believe how much of

33:11

the story of Julia to fauna changed

33:13

over time. I do have one question

33:15

though. Okay, so. We. Can

33:17

confirm these women were killers? Yes.

33:20

Oh yes, There's plenty of evidence

33:22

that they're poisons ended lies. Definitely.

33:24

So do we know how many.

33:27

It's basically impossible to estimate because of

33:29

the played that hit Rome and sixteen,

33:31

sixty seven and about nineteen percent of

33:34

the city's population died. But we do

33:36

know that the amount of husbands who

33:38

died under mysterious circumstances spiked in the

33:40

years that they were active. That's.

33:43

They some reports me by police informant.

33:45

I. Would guess less than six hundred bucks for all

33:47

we know. The number could have been more. But

33:50

it wasn't one woman responsible. Julia.

33:53

Tofana makes for a great attention

33:55

grabbing headlines. Women: Kills

33:57

six hundred men. But. She's not.

34:00

You're. Gonna. Julia Ak Julius

34:02

Ileana aka Julia Man Grt was

34:04

the real anti hero and the

34:06

real story and the real women

34:08

behind it are much more interesting

34:10

than the headline in my book.

34:13

Of. That. Is fascinating. It's hundred we need

34:15

a. Lot more to him. That

34:18

I love this. Before we wrap

34:20

up. If you were to retry

34:22

these women today, what sense would

34:24

you give them? And would you

34:26

say Julia was a hero? Zealand

34:28

or victim. Had. Almost seems like

34:30

the wise woman It was such a lengthy

34:33

justice. It's. May seem like with

34:35

these women were doing was no bulk as

34:37

they were helping women who were abused. Even

34:39

if we see someone doing something wrong that

34:41

doesn't give us the right to take the

34:43

law to our own hands. and you know

34:45

it's similar to today's modern hit man. There's.

34:47

Actually, some states I seen cases

34:49

where the person who fires the

34:51

hitman actually gets a harsher sentence

34:53

than the hitman themselves. It's very

34:56

discretionary and it varies by state.

34:58

Yeah, this can come down, see who's

35:00

willing to talk, who's willing to cooperate.

35:02

Anecdotally When I was a federal officer

35:04

I worked on a pretty big case

35:07

that involves i hit man, multiple murders

35:09

and all of the people he ordered

35:11

to carry out these hits. and in

35:13

this case much to my shock and

35:15

at i just were you there. I

35:18

was appalled if the person the

35:20

actual top of the chain he

35:22

cooperated against all of the men

35:25

he. Ordered to carry out these

35:27

crimes. And she received a

35:29

sentence of eight years, while all

35:31

of the underlings received a sentence

35:33

of life. So there's a lot

35:35

a disparity. In the way we treat

35:38

on these kinds of perpetrators. A Dc

35:40

a little unfairness the fact that so

35:42

many as guilty parties were able to

35:44

walk away from this and you almost

35:46

see these wise women that taking the

35:49

fall when the women who actually. Handed

35:52

a poison over to their husbands. It

35:54

seems like they got away with murder.

35:56

It seems like the women who provided

35:58

the poison they were. The ones that

36:01

were vilified in Demonize, but I think

36:03

that men were more afraid of them

36:05

in his way think they were the

36:07

priority to take them down to kind

36:10

of a mobilize them. whereas the other

36:12

women I don't think were seen as

36:14

threatening to mail society as a whole

36:17

yes, they were only threatening to their

36:19

partners exactly. You know this were to

36:21

happen today. we would have probably a

36:24

lot more evidence more first hand eye

36:26

witness accounts. There's rules around how people

36:28

can be interrogated. So the interrogations

36:30

would have looked very different. Sometimes.

36:33

People will falsely confess to avoid death. Also,

36:35

if it's a situation where the interrogators early

36:37

tell me what I want to hear you're

36:39

going to be quarter to on, Tell them

36:41

the same What A here. I.

36:44

Would personally have liked to

36:46

see some more eyewitness accounts.

36:48

More importantly, something on Cctv.

36:51

But. Again we're we're talking about

36:53

a different time we certainly are

36:55

to as I would go with

36:57

so me the dna where the

36:59

fingerprints I want the forensics com

37:01

which is definitely not. Always a part

37:03

of most criminal cases but say me

37:05

really. Listed all the evidence that I'd

37:07

wanna see. if there were any forensic

37:09

evidence that would also be wonderful. you

37:12

might. Like in some of these

37:14

women in the Punishments to let's

37:16

say, Charles Manson. So Charles Manson

37:18

often gets. Referred to as a serial killer.

37:20

The Charles Manson didn't actually kill

37:22

anyone, he just provided the instructions

37:25

and the the commands for others

37:27

to do so. Yet our system

37:29

treated. Him as culpable in the

37:31

same way that the person where the

37:33

people who actually carried out the crimes

37:36

were. So my opinion is.

37:39

If. They could prove that. These.

37:41

Women aren't as. Guilty and I

37:43

would say that. If there's

37:45

intense, if they are intentionally poisoning

37:47

their husbands, we'd still be looking

37:49

at similar to a first. Degree

37:52

murder situation but let.

37:54

Me Also just couch that in my

37:56

opinion here that I believe most of

37:58

these women were victims. They had

38:01

nowhere. To turn no

38:03

resources. No help whatsoever. So when

38:05

you ask the question or when we

38:08

asked the question, are these women heroes?

38:10

Are they villains? Are they victims? The

38:12

truth is that all of them. Most.

38:15

Of the female offenders that we

38:17

said modern day, they had extensive

38:19

histories. Have been victimized. Said

38:21

these women should have the same

38:23

thing, right? They are victims. They're

38:25

all three. And. Unfortunately, the

38:28

largest didn't treat them like that.

38:30

At. The time of the case we're

38:32

discussing the today they would be given

38:35

and would deserve. A. Different consideration.

38:37

Oh my gosh, I love

38:39

that that is assassinating perspective.

38:41

With that, I'd like to

38:43

thank our guests professors: Megan

38:45

Saxon, Amy Sloss. Bird for joining

38:47

me on this intriguing historical case.

38:50

There podcast women and Crime covers

38:52

the intersection of female crime and

38:54

the legal system and dives into

38:56

profiles of women in criminology. You

38:58

can hear women and crime wherever.

39:00

You get your podcasts. Thanks. Again

39:03

Magazine Amy We loved having you. On

39:05

the show. Thank. You so much for

39:07

having us Vanessa! We are happy to

39:09

come on any time and share our

39:11

insights and expertise on see mail offenders.

39:13

The I I know about you Meghan

39:15

but I really enjoyed telling the story

39:17

and it was really great to work

39:19

with you and your team. Vanessa. Thanks

39:22

for tuning. Into Serial Killers A

39:25

spotify. Podcast or here with a

39:27

new episode every Monday. Be sure

39:29

to check us out on Instagram

39:31

at Serial Killers Podcast and we'd

39:33

love to hear from you. So

39:35

if you're listening on the spot

39:37

of I app slight bump and

39:39

give us your thoughts Again, If

39:41

you found today's episode interesting, we

39:43

recommend checking out the Black Widows

39:45

of the Eternal City by Craig

39:47

Monson and Mike Dashes writing which

39:49

appears in Toxicology in the Middle

39:51

Ages and Renaissance and on his

39:53

website might-history.com It was all. Extremely

39:55

helpful to our research. Stay.

39:58

Safe out there. Serial

40:01

Killers is a spotify podcast. This

40:03

episode was checked by Lorrie Siegel

40:06

and sound designed by Alex Button

40:08

are had programming is. Julian

40:10

Borrow. Or head of production

40:12

is Nick Johnson and Spencer Howard

40:15

is our first production supervisor. This

40:17

episode was hosted by Meghan Sacks,

40:19

Amy Sloss. Bird and Me Minister

40:21

Richardson.