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Welcome to Seriously from BBC

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Radio 4. I'm Vanessa Casulay.

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This podcast finds the world's best audio

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documentaries and puts them all

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in one place. Gun-toting

0:31

gangs, rather than politicians, now

0:33

call the shots in many

0:35

parts of Haiti's capital Port-au-Prince,

0:38

a city under attack from within.

0:41

There is a terror system

0:43

now organised by the gangs. Right

0:46

now Haiti is like a war zone. It's

0:49

not safe for anyone. We are

0:51

having dead people in the street, which is God

0:54

eating them. What we

0:56

have now is almost a republic controlled

0:58

by gangs. There is no

1:00

government, no parliament and

1:03

no justice system. I've

1:06

reported from troubled Haiti many times

1:08

in the past, but the terrifying

1:10

situation facing people there now is

1:13

beyond comparison. Ralph

1:15

runs a private ambulance company in

1:17

Port-au-Prince. I did not

1:19

drive to work this morning. I stayed

1:22

at my workplace because when I was

1:24

going to go home, there

1:26

was a lot of shooting between the gang

1:28

members and the police. So I

1:30

could not go home last night, and I'm

1:32

still there this morning. That sounds pretty

1:35

frightening. That's a daily thing in Haiti

1:37

right now. OK, you go to work, you

1:39

don't know if you're coming back. You don't

1:41

know if you should be able to go back home. The

1:44

gang took over the government. They

1:46

do whatever they want, anytime, anywhere.

1:49

Leslie Voltaire, a member of Haiti's

1:51

caretaker government, says it's like living

1:53

in a city under siege. The

1:56

situation right now is dire

1:58

in the metropolitan... an area of

2:01

fingerprints, the court

2:03

inaccessible, the airport is closed

2:06

and no food is gone and

2:08

no medicines is coming to the

2:10

country. And the international

2:12

crisis group said that like 40% of

2:16

the police are corrupted

2:18

or elated with the

2:20

gangs. There is no

2:22

government, no parliament and

2:25

no justice system. So

2:34

how did this happen? What caused

2:36

this spiraling descent to anarchy in

2:39

this predominantly Christian Caribbean country where

2:41

more than half its 11 million

2:43

French and Creole speaking people live

2:46

below the poverty line? Are

2:49

we spending the next half hour

2:51

looking for answers with help from

2:53

Haitians who have lived through many

2:55

of their nation's recent political upheavals

2:58

and natural disasters? Haiti,

3:04

the first independent black republic in the

3:06

world, the second free nation

3:08

in the Americas. Haiti

3:10

proudly declared independence from France in

3:13

1804 following

3:15

a revolt by slaves. It

3:17

came at a very big price. In

3:20

exchange for international recognition for

3:22

their new state, Napoleon demanded

3:24

the equivalent of hundreds of

3:27

millions of dollars in reparations

3:29

for the country's former slave

3:31

owners. Fearing that

3:33

a refusal could trigger a return

3:35

to war with France, Haiti's leaders

3:37

complied. A move that

3:40

would cripple the country's economy for

3:42

centuries to come. Professor

3:44

Matthew J. Smith is a

3:46

specialist on Caribbean history at

3:48

University College London. over

4:00

50% and some estimates

4:02

actually suggest it's 60 to

4:04

70% of the

4:06

Haitian national income was used annually

4:09

to service that debt. The impact

4:11

of these huge reparations was still

4:13

being felt more than two centuries

4:16

later. In 2003,

4:18

Haiti's then-President Jean-Botron Aristide publicly demanded

4:20

that France should give

4:30

the money back. This, he

4:32

said, was the size of the bill. But

4:51

France refused to return even

4:53

a single cent. Never

4:55

mind, apologize for its role in

4:57

the past exploitation of the country's

4:59

slaves. Back

5:07

in the 19th century, newly

5:09

independent Haiti was involved in

5:11

two regional wars and repeated

5:13

political turmoil. The latter

5:15

led to the arrival of US

5:18

troops in 1915 after the assassination

5:20

of the Haitian President. The

5:23

Americans withdrew nearly 20 years

5:25

later, leaving the country further

5:27

in debt and little more

5:29

stable. It was then

5:31

a case of out of the frying pan

5:33

and into the fire following the election of

5:35

1957. The Haitian

5:38

people know only

5:40

one leader in the Haitian

5:43

Republic. This leader is Dr.

5:45

Gefalier. I have been

5:48

elected for President for life. It

5:51

is not my desire, but

5:54

it is the iron will of the

5:56

Haitian people. President

5:58

Francois Duvalier, Populienes. known

6:00

as Papadoc, a name that

6:02

would become synonymous with terror,

6:05

tyranny and brutal dictatorial rule

6:07

enforced by his army of

6:09

thuggish henchmen, the Tonton McCoot.

6:12

You see his iron grip in the guns,

6:15

his chaser. You

6:20

feel his menace in the pit of your skin. You

6:23

hear his presence. In

6:26

the silence of his subjects, Papadoc,

6:30

Dr. Francois Duvalier, spiritual leader

6:32

and president for life. Duvalier's

6:39

rule was extremely brutal. Duvalier

6:41

was a man who drove

6:44

fear into the hearts of the majority of

6:46

Haitians and how he did that was

6:49

through very public displays of

6:51

violence which was manifest in

6:54

something as clear and visible

6:56

as actually putting on display

6:59

cadavers and dead bodies. He

7:02

did this through the arm of

7:04

the Tonton McCoot which is a

7:06

paramilitary organization that Duvalier and

7:08

Duvalier allies essentially

7:11

created. This is a group that

7:13

was armed and loyal only to

7:15

Duvalier and the Duvalier state to

7:18

not only strike terror but to

7:20

also create very fearsome

7:22

cultural violence in Haiti. Papadoc

7:25

died in April 1971

7:28

but his family's iron grip

7:30

on power continued unabated under

7:32

the leadership of his son

7:35

Jean-Claude Duvalier, otherwise known as

7:37

Baby Doc. And

7:39

just as before, the regime's

7:41

private army of brutal henchmen,

7:43

the Tonton McCoot, stalked

7:45

the streets. Christine, the

7:48

wife of Ralph, who we heard

7:50

from earlier, remembers them well. Everybody,

7:52

you know, feared them. The only

7:54

thing when you see them on

7:56

the streets, you're kind of, you

7:58

know, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Then, the

8:01

total manhood. Let's not do something

8:03

bad, you know? Everybody.

8:05

Fit them live. That's why they respected

8:07

all the wolves. The president

8:09

of Haiti's on Claude Duvalier has

8:12

fled the country on an American

8:14

Air Force blame find million Nineteen

8:16

Eighty Six people of Haiti at

8:18

had enough and Baby Talk was

8:20

forced to flee the country following

8:22

a popular uprising. At. Least

8:25

forty thousand people thought to

8:27

have been killed to nearly

8:29

thirty years of dictatorial room

8:31

by to develop a family

8:33

time in. Providing

8:36

a prophetic. When

8:38

to devalue dictatorship fell in Nineteen

8:40

eighty Six and you had the

8:43

exile of junk. What values? a

8:45

tremendous moment of jubilation in Haiti.

8:47

Haitians call it the moments of-kaiser's

8:49

means and uprooting. We heard a

8:51

lot of noise outside and murder

8:54

next. Morning when we woke up

8:56

we saw it was like everybody

8:58

being so happy that sign of

9:00

the the dictatorship was over and

9:03

that the baby doc was gone

9:05

with his family. of

9:08

the wedding was. Outside industry damn

9:10

thing I did you have

9:12

any an executive lasted so

9:14

long as other versions of

9:16

it sounds like quite a

9:18

while as well, accountable for

9:20

their among everyone. But after

9:23

oh wow this study is

9:25

the loading in the destroying

9:27

all the ministers episode day

9:29

of celebration as of retaliation

9:31

against any remaining symbols of

9:33

the old Regime, their own

9:35

scores to be settled in

9:37

Haiti these days and to

9:39

values. Secret Police The Instruments Seville

9:41

Dictatorship of finding out for themselves

9:43

what it's like to be terrified.

9:47

At that they people feel like we're free.

9:49

Now we can talk and people say oh

9:51

that there is those auto market. But.

9:54

What out? what's next? For. the jubilation

9:56

some by mark is it is

9:58

late forties was shared by

10:00

Ralph. I wasn't celebrating

10:03

because the Haitian people, they're

10:05

not ready for democracy.

10:08

The Haitian people, you have to treat

10:10

them with discipline.

10:13

If you let them alone, for them to decide,

10:15

they don't know what to do. They go crazy.

10:18

The Haitian people, they don't respect

10:20

rules. However ready for

10:23

democracy Haiti's people were, the army

10:25

was having none of it. With

10:27

much political turmoil, two coups followed

10:29

over the next few years. But

10:32

after elections in 1990, Jean

10:35

Bertrand Aristide swept to power.

10:41

So he had this unique opportunity

10:43

to send things because

10:45

he found a very solid basis of

10:48

a nation that wants to regain

10:50

trust into a new leader, which

10:53

he appears to be, and with a

10:55

charismatic one, who he also appears to be,

10:57

and someone that can put everyone together, which

10:59

he also appears to be. When

11:02

the first truly democratic election

11:04

arrived in Haiti in 1990

11:06

and resulted in the election

11:08

of former priest Jean Bertrand

11:10

Aristide, that was a moment

11:12

of tremendous, tremendous excitement

11:15

in Haiti. It seemed that

11:17

finally a democratic system had arrived in

11:19

Haiti. But the party didn't last

11:21

long. Just over six

11:24

months later, President Aristide was

11:26

overthrown in yet another military

11:28

coup, forcing him into

11:30

exile for three years in the

11:32

United States. I want to

11:34

announce that the military leaders of Haiti have agreed

11:36

to step down from power. The

11:39

dictators have recognized that it is in their best

11:41

interest and in the best interest of the Haitian

11:43

people to relinquish power

11:45

peacefully, and that the

11:48

democratically elected government is returned. This

11:51

agreement guarantees both those

11:53

objectives. Bertrand

12:00

Aristide was returned to power.

12:03

He then made clear that it

12:05

was now payback time for Haiti's

12:07

army. Professor Matthew Smith.

12:10

When Aristide returned from exile on

12:13

the support of the United States,

12:15

both diplomatic and military pressure, one

12:18

of the first things he did within his first year of

12:20

return in 1994

12:22

was to actually disband the Haitian army.

12:25

It meant that it could eliminate

12:27

one of the fundamental institutions that

12:29

had demonstrated in recent years that

12:32

they would block the full democratic

12:34

functioning of Haiti. But on the

12:36

other hand, it meant

12:38

that in order to secure and

12:40

to guarantee degrees of protection on

12:43

the part of the Haitian political

12:45

class, people began to turn to

12:47

new avenues for that security support.

12:50

That would lead ultimately

12:52

to paramilitary forces, street

12:54

forces as well. So you have

12:56

a monster being created in essence

12:59

that grows and grows and grows

13:01

and eventually outgrows the very thing

13:03

that had supported its existence in

13:05

the first place, which is the

13:07

political class. The era of

13:09

the modern gang, armed freelance

13:11

militias backing a variety of

13:13

Haitian political leaders was born.

13:16

Christine remembers Aristide's gangs

13:18

as even worse than

13:20

Duvalier's henchmen. So

13:23

you use young men

13:25

and young women, and then

13:28

they were like a mill in the

13:30

streets and they were scaring

13:33

everyone, scaring everyone because when they come

13:35

to your office, they saying that you

13:37

have to give them money if you

13:40

want your business to continue running and

13:42

things like that. Like a new Tonto

13:44

Macout. Yeah, like a new

13:47

Tonto Macout, but that was not structured

13:50

as your Tonto Macout were. So

13:52

there was no control over them like there had

13:54

been for the Tonto Macout? No,

13:56

no, no, no control over them. They did

13:58

whatever they wanted to do. Sleep

14:02

On. Having Poverty has long

14:04

been a fertile recruiting sergeant

14:06

for the country's gangs. The

14:08

poorer, the country cats. Comes.

14:26

War with Iraq. War

14:29

as it is a country cells into

14:31

now I just off to the for

14:33

for the series or Harrison's that it

14:36

killed hundreds of people and need as

14:38

many as a medium. The

14:43

damaged and suffering weeks by the

14:45

hurricane to see is that more

14:48

desperate young men would join gangs.

14:50

Worries that was shared by sitting

14:52

on a beach in the head

14:54

of the Un peacekeeping force in

14:56

Haiti. I. Am strongly

14:58

convinced that everything we have achieved

15:01

in terms of improving security and

15:03

strengthening our of role institutions will

15:05

remain fragile and highly reverse similar

15:08

as long as we cannot improve

15:10

the data. A lot of people

15:12

and the sad thing is that

15:15

with the hurricanes last year, keepers

15:17

conditions have not improved. Dad insect

15:19

wasn't. And. Sadly, life for

15:22

people in Haiti was about

15:24

to get very much worse.

15:26

Still, Good afternoon.

15:28

Welcome to the the. The thing is that

15:30

won a major earthquake has hit Haiti and

15:32

the car and killing hundreds if not thousands.

15:34

Of people. I returned to Haiti

15:36

in January two thousand and ten,

15:38

just after the devastating earthquake that

15:40

killed as many as three hundred,

15:42

some some people. Were

15:47

living in a sensor less they let

15:49

them know hospital or not. I mean

15:52

no friends. That. know me outside

15:54

world had watched on in horror

15:56

wanting to help more than thirteen

15:58

billion dollars was to roll

16:01

in, raising Haitian hopes of

16:03

rebuilding their lives. Christine,

16:05

again. We were like, oh, my

16:07

God, the country, like, the Port of France

16:09

is destroyed. And then we

16:11

said, OK, all international community

16:13

come and then want to

16:16

help us rebuild. This is

16:18

an opportunity to rebuild, to

16:20

go from zero. A

16:22

year later, I went back to Haiti

16:24

to see what impact the vast sums

16:26

of aid money had only

16:29

to be told by former

16:31

Prime Minister Michel Pierre Louis

16:33

that confusion reigned. Is

16:35

there a plan? They have approved

16:37

a lot of projects. Is there

16:40

a coherence between these projects? What's

16:43

the plan for the reconstruction that the people

16:45

are talking about? Do you think there

16:48

is a plan at all? I

16:51

haven't heard of it. When you

16:53

had the earthquake recovery committee that

16:55

had formed and President Clinton had

16:57

become the head of that, it

17:00

was meant to be

17:02

a coordinating body. In effect,

17:04

what resulted was so much

17:07

of the on coordination that came

17:09

to really undermine the projects of

17:12

assistance in Haiti during those initial

17:14

years after the earthquake, because so

17:17

many of the interests of

17:19

the main players of that superseded

17:21

the interests of what Haiti

17:23

needed at the time. And

17:26

that became a fundamental problem. Professor

17:28

Matthew Smith. Many

17:31

Haitians complained that they had little

17:33

say in how earthquake aid money

17:35

was spent. Dan Foote,

17:37

a senior U.S. diplomat in Porto Prince

17:39

at the time, says this seemed to

17:41

be the policy during a meeting on

17:43

how to spend $5 billion of U.S.

17:45

donations. Secretary

17:49

Hillary Clinton's chief of

17:51

staff would come down and we planned how We

17:54

were going to spend that $5.1 billion

17:56

in Porto Prince in the Embassy. And

17:58

I Remember distinctly. Asking

18:00

one of our leaders why

18:03

there weren't any Haitian people

18:05

in a row. So we

18:07

play and fixing a Haiti

18:09

post earthquake. Without. Case

18:12

since in the rooms What? The

18:14

other day what did get built

18:16

was built on a far smaller

18:19

magnitude. We didn't ask the hayes

18:21

and what they need and what

18:23

they want which is unfortunately what

18:26

the international community has done. Politically.

18:29

And from or development

18:31

standpoint ever since ninety

18:33

Six at the least

18:36

as the misery of

18:38

seasons deepened the country

18:40

skiing problem. The.

18:43

Successes Hurricanes and he deceased and

18:45

the and. Twenty

18:48

first century was intensified

18:50

by the earthquake. To

18:52

that meant that so much of

18:54

what had been tentatively been developed

18:57

in Haiti at the levels was

18:59

be unraveled and creating a cousin

19:01

and as a very dangerous situation

19:04

to have in a country in

19:06

which there is so much gang

19:08

violence Magnifying by the time we

19:10

get into the post earthquake period.

19:13

And the years that followed what

19:15

the country needed more than as

19:17

I was strong leadership to help

19:19

Cg back on his feet to

19:22

reduce the growing influence of gangs.

19:24

That this was. This

19:30

effort. In

19:33

Twenty eleventh, rather than an

19:35

experience, political heavyweight voters elected

19:37

Sweet Mickey's a musician otherwise

19:40

known as Michel Martelly with

19:42

yet more gangs for me,

19:44

Juri his brother chaotic five

19:47

year term. The. Hasten President Jos

19:49

Anomalies has been assassinated has his

19:51

home by a group of armed

19:53

individuals. thus a soaking. Statements in

19:55

the Interim Prime Minister Claude. The

19:58

show says he says he twenty

20:00

twenty one The eighties then President

20:02

Zawinul movies was assassinated the first

20:05

time This had happened to our

20:07

hasten head of state in nearly

20:10

one hundred years. It seems nobody

20:12

was safe anymore. Gang

20:14

crime was getting worse with

20:16

kidnapping rice. Christine and Ralph

20:19

was themselves to experience this

20:21

particular trauma. I. Saw a

20:23

lumber calling my fault that

20:25

I didn't know. I answered

20:27

it and then I heard

20:30

my husband voice He says

20:32

Chris Simms has been kidnapped.

20:35

Of can lead Sunday's. Zebra

20:37

him to for. The. Time

20:40

I am the three months. Or

20:43

maneuverable. And then

20:45

another person to the forests. Any

20:47

said, I am the General. And

20:50

I'm asking One million. Dollars loyal

20:52

as well as release what makes

20:54

it worse every time the silkier

20:56

promenade in a preamble cure. The.

20:59

Common Room the think the person. They're.

21:01

Going about this should. I

21:03

said I do not have any money. This

21:06

a well man If you want

21:08

your has been bad your need

21:10

to come up with what we

21:12

are asking for. Serve. In

21:14

the end, what sort of some were you

21:16

able to offer them? Fifteen.

21:18

Thousand and then. This

21:21

I'd love. To kidnap debris readers.

21:23

Who. Was a daily basis for them. Because.

21:26

I wanted to go through people come out.

21:29

How many people were being held

21:31

hostage while you were kidnapped? It

21:34

was at least between seventeen and twenty when

21:36

he read it. They said okay

21:38

what's your house you can bring it

21:40

was gonna. Let him go. And

21:42

then the first time I gave the fifteen

21:45

thousand they said they didn't get the money

21:47

we don't local cordial and the lid on

21:49

it up. Us. Our

21:52

the missed. It was terrible. Are

21:54

a lot of home. And first

21:57

him for more days of our be about would have

21:59

done. In the middle of the

22:01

day I receive a call and then the

22:03

people that. Okay, whatever you can

22:05

come up with, moon, take

22:08

it. When they're

22:10

called me and know and my driver the

22:12

details. Realism is. As a

22:14

or to go through me material because if

22:16

we would on a premium one and i'm

22:18

sitting better yoga job in here too Long

22:21

ago. A my driver was

22:23

crying as a man. come on man, the her

22:25

I don't read. Don't. Believe in God.

22:28

And. This was an easier. To.

22:31

Moloch. Oh. And

22:33

then when open minds. I

22:36

was still alive. News tonight! For.

22:38

Those that didn't. Own.

22:41

Making. The people inside. Scare.

22:44

Wouldn't to build a you have to give

22:46

the been. Around

22:48

nine thirty at night. I

22:51

receive a source platform. Well see,

22:53

I'm out. I'm coming home. Oh.

22:56

My god I was

22:59

so happy I sell

23:01

vests for decades. Haitian

23:04

people, most of us

23:06

to the siege days.

23:09

Now it seems summer during

23:11

the stones. for the past,

23:13

what were the bad old

23:15

days of people don't dictatorial

23:18

roost. He was beautiful. It

23:20

was safe in the street. Regardless,

23:22

Where you go, what time you go.

23:25

Everything was safe. The security.

23:27

The Security Was. Better. Within

23:30

have that gay people running

23:32

all over killing people destroying

23:34

everything the only podium would

23:36

provide of. You could net

23:38

of. You. Couldn't see anything a

23:40

give the government. But we.

23:43

Had school, Whereas. Through. Divorce.

23:46

And day. And I responded

23:48

to come back So if he

23:50

was alive today, you'd have him

23:52

back. Definitely. Definitely

23:55

we will do. So many other people

23:57

feel the same way as you. Well,

24:00

you know, yes. Some people

24:02

are saying, well, we had a better

24:04

life then. I

24:06

see 90% of the population is saying

24:08

the same thing. There is such

24:11

a distancing of the collective memory

24:14

of the dual value dictatorship and those

24:16

horrible years in Haiti that people

24:18

now look to it with a certain romantic

24:21

fondness. And that's very

24:23

troubling because it means

24:26

that the circumstances for

24:28

an authoritarian type of

24:30

rule could reemerge.

24:37

If things were bad before, it's nothing

24:40

to what they are now, with

24:42

Haiti home to an estimated 300 gangs with 40,000

24:44

members. To

24:48

make matters even more worrying,

24:50

some gangs, led by a

24:52

former policeman called Jimmy Barbecue

24:54

Charyzier, have joined an alliance,

24:56

making them a bigger threat

24:58

than ever. Professor Matthew

25:00

Smith. If you only

25:03

think about the Federation of Gangs that

25:05

Jimmy Charyzier barbecue controls,

25:08

they allied in a way

25:10

around a particular cause initially,

25:12

which was to oust Arielle

25:14

Henri that had brought

25:16

them together. And now that seems to

25:18

have happened. But

25:21

that alliance can easily break.

25:24

So what's to be done? Most

25:26

have agreed that some kind of

25:29

international intervention force is needed, though

25:31

Mr. Charyzier has said his gangs

25:34

will fight any arrivals. Having

25:37

already forced the resignation of Haiti's

25:39

acting head of state, Arielle Henri,

25:41

he's also made threats

25:43

against the country's transitional council,

25:46

tasked with paving the way for presidential

25:48

elections in 2026. Council

25:51

member Lesley Voltaire. They

25:53

have said that they will eliminate anybody

25:56

who think that they can go

25:58

to the national palace as a trend. the

26:00

Transition Council. Indeed. How

26:02

do you respond to that? I'm

26:04

a fighter. I'm ready to

26:06

fight, but I'm a Democrat, so I don't

26:08

have guns. But it's

26:11

our only chance. Have you considered

26:13

giving a gang member like

26:16

this barbecue person a

26:18

seat on the Transitional Council?

26:21

No, I don't think that we can do any deal

26:23

with the gangs if we don't

26:25

have more force than them. Haiti,

26:30

born from the world's first

26:32

successful slave revolt, is a

26:35

proud, resilient country. From

26:37

the outset, its people have faced

26:40

enormous challenges. From their

26:42

nations' crippling reparations to

26:44

slave owners in France,

26:47

to brutal dictatorships, devastating

26:49

natural disasters, weak leadership,

26:51

international indifference, debilitating

26:53

poverty and now soaring

26:56

gang crime. Despite

26:58

battling many of these ills on

27:00

a daily basis for much of their

27:02

lives, people like Christine,

27:05

Ralph and Mark amazingly haven't

27:08

given up on Haiti. I

27:10

always have hoped that things can

27:12

get better. But

27:16

in order for that to be done, we

27:19

have to do something about it. We cannot just

27:21

sit and wait and then things will change. I

27:24

want Haiti to be like

27:27

all the other islands, Martini,

27:29

Guadalupe. We have a beautiful place.

27:32

White sand, the beach, beautiful

27:34

women. Our food is good. Our liquor

27:36

is good. You know,

27:38

Haiti is good, man. We

27:40

still have people that love one another. We still

27:43

have people that believe they should be part of

27:45

any movement that will put every people together again.

27:47

But I believe that if it's not in months,

27:49

if it's not in years, if

27:52

it has to be decades, I believe

27:54

that we will have our nation back. I'm

28:07

Kavita Puri and in three million

28:09

from BBC Radio 4 I

28:12

hear extraordinary eyewitness accounts that

28:14

tell the story for the

28:16

first time of the Bengal

28:18

famine which happened in British India in the middle

28:20

of the Second World War. At

28:23

least three million people died. It's

28:26

one of the largest losses of civilian life from

28:28

the allied side and there isn't a museum, a

28:31

memorial or even a plaque

28:33

to those who died. How

28:35

can the memory of three million people

28:37

just disappear? 80

28:43

years on I trip down first

28:45

hand attempts and make new

28:47

discoveries and hear remarkable

28:49

stories and explore why remembrance

28:51

is so complicated in

28:53

Britain, India and Bangladesh. Listen

28:57

to three million on BBC Sounds.