0:04

Welcome to the Sex Money and

0:06

Rage podcast .

0:08

If you take accountability for your

0:10

life right now , it helps you to not feel

0:12

so not in control

0:14

, and it helps you to feel less helpless

0:17

in terms of the trajectory of your life

0:19

and you get to choose how you want

0:21

to end up in life . I truly believe that we

0:23

all have the power within us to manifest

0:26

the life that we want , and we

0:28

are in control of our destiny . No

0:31

one else , just you , and I think that's

0:33

why it's so important to do the work

0:35

and hold yourself accountable and also

0:37

be aware , so that you can end up having

0:39

the life that you want .

0:42

Welcome back to Sex , money and Rage

0:44

. I'm your host , ellie , and thank you for joining

0:46

in to another episode . If you're enjoying

0:48

this show , please hit the subscribe or follow

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button and make sure notifications are ticked

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so that every time there's a new episode

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it will pop up on your phone and

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you'll just be like listen to me , which

1:00

you should do . You should definitely listen . So if

1:02

you're wondering why there's been a six week

1:04

break between episodes , it's because

1:07

I was getting absolutely slammed and struggling

1:09

to keep up . So good news is I've

1:11

hired a podcast editor , which I was

1:13

like why didn't I do this sooner ? So , anyway

1:16

, super excited about that to be able to delegate

1:18

all of that to someone else so that I can just focus

1:20

on the interviews and everything . So huge

1:22

, huge shout out to David , who is editing

1:24

this episode and fixing all my little

1:27

mistakes . Thank

1:29

you for all your help . It is much appreciated

1:31

. So today I had a really interesting

1:34

chat with Ayla Inger , who is a

1:36

research assistant over at Douglas

1:38

Mental Health Institute in Quebec

1:40

, canada . She does a lot of research

1:42

around psychological trauma , and so we talked

1:44

about , you know , narcissistic parents , emotional

1:47

abuse in the home . We also talked about

1:49

suicide , the nervous system , what

1:51

happens when you go into fight or flight response , all

1:54

of that really really interesting stuff

1:56

that often doesn't get talked about . So

1:58

it was a really , really good episode

2:00

. I think there's so much value

2:02

in this if you're listening , and in

2:04

addition to Ayla being a research

2:07

assistant , she also runs a blog and

2:09

you can check her workout , which is really

2:11

interesting to read over at findingyourselfagaincom

2:14

. So that's

2:16

it for me . I hope you enjoyed this episode

2:18

and , again , if you haven't already , please

2:21

hit the subscribe or follow button and let's

2:23

jump in . Welcome

2:25

back to Sex Money and Rage . Today I

2:27

am here with Ayla , and

2:29

Ayla is a clinical researcher and

2:32

we are going to have an interesting conversation

2:34

today . So firstly , welcome , ayla

2:36

. Thank you for coming on the podcast . Thank

2:38

you for having me . I'm glad to be here . Yeah

2:40

, awesome . And so I

2:42

have actually found you randomly through a Google

2:44

search when I was looking up spiritual faux

2:46

pas , and your website was the first

2:49

result and it was actually a really , really good

2:51

article , which I'll link to in the show

2:53

notes for anyone interested . But

2:55

yeah , I just thought there was some really

2:58

good sort of quotes

3:00

. I'll just bring up a couple because they're really

3:02

cool . So you talked about your ego is not

3:04

the enemy . It's the subconscious part of you that serves

3:07

to protect . Based on conditioning from

3:09

previous life experiences . Growing

3:11

up with an overly critical parent

3:13

, your ego might perceive that

3:15

, or any form of criticism as a threat

3:17

. So your body goes into fight or flight , and

3:20

then you might choose to react by

3:22

attack . Sorry , choose to fight by

3:25

attacking . Flight , which is withdrawing

3:27

, freezing , which is dissociating , or fawn

3:29

, which is people pleasing mode . So , yeah

3:32

, what ? We'll sort of get into a bit about that

3:34

in a little bit . But what inspired you

3:37

to start your blog or your website ?

3:40

So I think you pretty much summed up everything

3:43

that I talked about in general on my blog . So

3:46

I started this blog

3:48

, which I'm aiming hopefully to turn into a book . So

3:50

I touch upon these topics because I

3:53

became a certified , informed

3:55

trauma-informed practitioner so

3:58

that I can psych educate people on

4:00

the pitfalls or detriments of

4:02

developmental trauma or

4:05

having a chaotic

4:07

or non-traditional

4:09

childhood upbringing . So

4:12

I think , coinciding with the theme of your podcast

4:14

, I find the concept of trauma

4:16

is not only an enigma to many , but

4:18

actually very , very taboo . It's

4:21

also not often discussed in the context

4:23

of family dynamics or childhood

4:26

upbringing . So I think it's important to

4:28

raise awareness regarding these

4:30

things and , you know , just start

4:33

a conversation amongst our generation

4:35

and the media about what developmental

4:37

trauma is versus what event

4:40

trauma is , which is what we usually see in the media

4:43

, which leads to what we know as PTSD

4:45

and you know it's a word that's thrown

4:47

around a lot in the media . You

4:50

know you hear a lot of people talking

4:52

about trauma and gaslighting

4:55

and things like that , and

4:58

it's just . I think it's just important

5:00

to set the record straight about what it really

5:02

means and how it impacts you .

5:05

Amazing , amazing . I totally

5:07

agree because I think you know I've talked

5:09

to people and they're like oh , I'm not traumatized , and I

5:11

think there's , I think , quite a big

5:13

misunderstanding of like what is trauma

5:15

and how it can impact people . So I guess

5:18

, sort of you mentioned , you can have event-based

5:20

trauma versus developmental trauma . What

5:23

, first of all , I guess , maybe what would you describe

5:25

trauma as being , and then maybe we can talk about

5:27

the two different types

5:29

of event and developmental .

5:32

Trauma in general is a

5:34

is an event that disrupts

5:37

our nervous system and causes

5:39

an array of different symptoms . So

5:41

within the realm of trauma

5:44

we try to differentiate between the two . So we have

5:46

event trauma , which is usually a

5:48

single , one-off event , which

5:50

usually occurs in adulthood because we can

5:52

attribute our own meaning to it . So that could be like

5:54

sexual assault , you know , going

5:56

to war , things like that and it causes

5:59

a . It causes a dysregulation

6:01

on our nervous system which causes what we know as

6:04

PTSD . So you get

6:06

recurrent flashbacks , emotional dysregulation

6:08

. The difference between this

6:10

type of trauma and developmental trauma

6:13

is developmental trauma is usually

6:15

small , recurrent instances

6:17

that happen between the child and the caregiver

6:19

growing up , and

6:21

it's usually before we have an awareness

6:23

of that . Something negative

6:25

or bad is happening to us and

6:28

it registers in pretty much every single part

6:30

of our of our body . You know our nervous

6:32

system , our , our limbic system , our

6:34

hypothalamus , our emotional

6:36

and it impacts the holistic

6:38

overview of our

6:41

upbringing and this

6:43

usually causes something called complex

6:45

PTSD . And

6:48

even though both complex PTSD and PTSD

6:50

involve symptoms of psychological

6:52

and behavioral stress , responses like flashbacks

6:55

and hypervigilance , the

6:58

difference is that people would see PTSD . They

7:00

traditionally have symptoms such

7:03

as chronic and extensive issues

7:05

with like identity

7:07

issues . You know having

7:09

a problem with forming a sense of self

7:12

, emotional regulation , having

7:14

an issue with forming healthy

7:16

relationships . So

7:18

this is kind of how we differentiate the two and

7:22

with regards to developmental trauma

7:24

, we also separate that into another

7:26

two stems . We have

7:28

something called separation

7:31

trauma . Separation trauma , which is

7:33

basically when you have

7:35

emotional abuse from your caregiver , and

7:38

then we also have neglect

7:41

trauma , which is basically when you don't

7:44

get the the

7:46

love and appreciation and validation

7:48

that you need from your caregiver .

7:50

Okay , perfect , perfect . So I guess

7:52

I guess an example would be sort

7:54

of you mentioned neglect , so that could be the

7:57

parent not being around , like

7:59

not physically present . It could be not

8:01

not taking an interest in the child , or

8:03

what was that , the one you mentioned

8:05

?

8:06

Sorry , besides neglect , Separation

8:09

trauma , which is emotional abuse . Yeah

8:11

, so , under the realm of emotional

8:13

abuse , I would say it's sort of like like

8:16

being being forced into doing things

8:18

you don't want to , being criticized constantly

8:21

. Basically , having a helicopter parent you

8:23

know and having conditional

8:25

love , I say , would also go underneath that , where you feel

8:28

like you need to perform or deliver on a certain

8:30

aspect in order to receive love from your

8:32

caregiver , which really

8:34

causes a lot of turmoil , emotional turmoil

8:36

in the child's brain because they never feel

8:38

like they're good enough .

8:39

And I mentioned two things like like guilt , tripping

8:42

or manipulation as well

8:44

, from the parent to the child . And

8:46

I think it's tricky because , like

8:49

most people have probably experienced

8:51

manipulation from a parent or a friend

8:53

or a boss or a colleague , but

8:56

it's very difficult , in a

8:58

way , to pin down because it's it's mental

9:01

and it's emotional . It's not something super

9:04

tangible that you can clearly

9:06

say oh , this is happening . You just feel like

9:08

you know something's off . Or you

9:11

just feel like you said , really , you know

9:13

, like this hypercritical parent , and

9:16

to really then categorize it as this is actually

9:18

a form of emotional abuse , I think , like

9:20

for a lot of people , they wouldn't maybe realize

9:23

that it is abuse and it's just , yeah

9:25

, I think , like you said , bringing awareness to that for people

9:28

so that they have that understanding

9:30

of what's going on .

9:31

Yeah , and like developmental

9:33

trauma , is so subtle

9:35

that , and pervasive that

9:37

it's become virtually invisible

9:39

to the naked eye . And this is

9:41

something that I like to stress upon in my

9:43

blog when I write about these things , because I talk

9:45

a lot about how relational

9:48

and developmental trauma leads to

9:50

very non-traditional

9:53

forms of you know

9:55

PTSD symptoms . So it

9:57

manifests , in a way , in

9:59

terms of self-destructive tendencies

10:01

or self-sabotaging tendencies , which and

10:04

they could also be high functioning as well . So

10:06

to the average person , you may

10:08

look like you're doing fine , but you

10:10

do very small things that

10:13

are actually detrimental to you

10:15

and the relationships around you . So this

10:17

is why it's very , very hard to pinpoint

10:19

. It's also very hard to acknowledge within

10:22

yourself that you did go or

10:24

you did grow up in a narcissistic household

10:26

, because no one wants to like wake

10:28

up and turn around and be like yeah , my parents

10:30

sucked , you know . So it's

10:32

really , really hard to talk about and

10:34

I think it's important to just shed light on that

10:36

and raise awareness and , you

10:38

know , let people know that it's okay , you're not the only

10:41

one that went through something

10:43

like that .

10:44

Yeah , absolutely . And I think having

10:46

a narcissistic or manipulative or emotionally

10:48

abusive parent and trying to talk

10:50

to them about it or bring that into

10:52

the light and say you know , this is my experience

10:54

, it's then just going to pretty much

10:56

blow up in your face because you

10:59

know these tactics of manipulation and

11:01

gaslighting and you know turning

11:03

it around on the child is just going

11:05

to happen again inevitably . So

11:08

I think you're like education , like you said

11:10

, and resources are really important

11:12

.

11:13

Definitely yeah , and you know it's

11:16

very hard to bring up , not only

11:18

to your parents but to the people around

11:21

you , because you have , you know , a

11:23

lot of people don't understand what a

11:25

narcissistic family dynamic is exactly

11:28

and especially with the older

11:30

generation , they

11:32

have normalized so much so being

11:35

in that way , that , and that's the reason why it

11:37

gets passed down very frequently

11:39

. You know , I mean there's obviously

11:41

a rise , especially with Gen Z . There's

11:43

a rise of conscious parenting and

11:47

you know people are starting to understand that

11:49

there's a certain way to parent and there's a certain way

11:51

to talk to a kid and there's a certain way to enforce

11:53

autonomy upon your child . But

11:56

obviously this was not accepted back

11:58

in the day and I think the reason

12:00

why a lot of us had

12:02

parents like that is because we tend

12:04

to learn from those that came before us

12:07

and so it gets passed

12:09

down in an

12:11

environmental way and a genetic way . You

12:13

know , intergenerational trauma is so common

12:15

there's not much that we can

12:17

do about it . I think the important thing is just

12:19

to become aware of it and

12:22

make sure that you at least break the

12:24

cycle of intergenerational trauma

12:27

and enforce those conscious parenting

12:29

practices .

12:30

Absolutely , and so you

12:32

sort of we've sort of touched on narcissism . I

12:34

know that it's getting more traction

12:36

and more awareness around it , but what would

12:38

you sort of describe narcissism

12:41

as for someone who doesn't have a good grasp

12:43

on it ? Or gaslighting or some of these techniques

12:45

? Yeah , what would it look like ?

12:47

So it's actually a very , very , very

12:50

hard concept to explain , because

12:52

you have narcissistic

12:54

personality disorder , which is a well-defined

12:56

disorder within the DSM , and

12:59

there are certain criteria that fit underneath

13:01

that , and then you have narcissism on

13:03

a dimension . So I believe

13:05

, at least to a certain extent

13:08

, that we all display narcissistic

13:10

traits one way or another , and

13:12

it's on a dimension . So some of us are

13:14

display more traits , some of us display less

13:16

traits , and

13:19

I will be the first to admit that . I think that because

13:21

of my chaotic upbringing

13:23

and some of the things that I went through , I

13:25

actually also displayed narcissistic

13:28

trait In that sense

13:30

I would discard people

13:32

. I would use

13:34

, maybe , relationships or people to fill

13:36

a void . I needed a constant

13:39

source of supply , whether that came

13:41

from drugs or sex or validation

13:44

or external validation or even achievements . I

13:46

think that that kind of encompasses narcissistic

13:49

behaviors in general and the

13:51

way that people might display

13:53

those traits . When it comes

13:55

to family in general , I think a narcissistic

13:58

family is one where the

14:00

needs of the parents are the focus

14:02

and the children are expected to bend

14:05

over backwards to meet those needs

14:07

. So usually parents

14:09

who adopt a narcissistic dynamic , they tend to

14:11

view their children as an extension of themselves

14:14

, rather than viewing the child as

14:16

an individual , autonomous being

14:18

. And then they use those

14:20

methods that I described before , so

14:22

of conditional love , of gaslighting , of

14:25

reinforcement or even punishment

14:27

, to try and mold the child into however

14:29

they see fit . And

14:31

this causes the child to feel

14:33

like they have to portray their authentic self

14:36

just to gain the

14:38

love and approval and connection

14:40

that they need from their caregiver , when

14:42

in reality we should be getting unconditional love

14:45

from our caregivers anyway . And

14:48

obviously this manifests later on

14:50

in adulthood as

14:52

becoming a people pleasing , you

14:54

know , person that constantly

14:57

needs love and validation from other people and

14:59

you start to betray your own self just

15:01

to gain that from other people .

15:03

Absolutely . Yeah , I definitely

15:05

can relate and thank you for sharing your

15:07

experience as well . I think , as

15:09

you were talking , it sort of seems like ultimately

15:12

it's coming back to safety , a sense of safety

15:14

in the nervous system , and if the parent is

15:17

threatening that in the child

15:19

, the child's going to act in a way to try and keep themselves

15:22

safe , like you said , even if that means

15:25

abandoning the authentic self , which is really

15:27

unfortunate . So it's interesting

15:29

how you sort of mentioned in your blog about

15:32

the fight or flight and the freeze and

15:34

withdrawing , and I think these are all

15:36

tools or reactions we have

15:38

in our system , our nervous system , to

15:40

keep us safe when we're a child and then as we

15:43

grow up as well .

15:44

That's true , yeah , so I

15:47

touched upon a little bit about the concept of the

15:49

ego , and the ego is essentially

15:51

just our identity , right ? It's our sense of self

15:53

. It's that subconscious part of you that

15:55

we formed in

15:58

childhood in order to protect us . So it allows

16:00

us to determine who we are , what our values

16:02

are , how we want to progress forward in life

16:04

. The thing is is that your

16:07

ego serves to protect

16:09

you , but not always in the most

16:11

functional of ways , and so

16:13

there is a there is a line

16:16

that can get crossed when your ego starts to

16:18

operate in a dysfunctional way . So

16:20

, as I mentioned in my blog I spoke about , if

16:22

you grew up with an overly critical parent

16:24

, your ego will perceive any

16:27

form of criticism that you receive in your adult

16:29

life as , even if it's constructive

16:31

, as a threat , and so that

16:33

when that happens and you and your body

16:35

is hyper vigilant to any form of

16:37

threat , you go into

16:39

flight or fight mode . So

16:42

you either you can either react

16:44

by , you know , fighting , so

16:46

that's becoming attacking towards

16:48

another person or situation . Flight

16:51

, which is withdrawing and dissociating

16:53

. Freezing , which is

16:55

, you know , dissociating completely

16:57

from your identity , and fawning

16:59

, which is people pleasing , so it's

17:02

those people that have a lack of boundaries and

17:04

are constantly trying to make

17:06

the other person happy , just to you

17:08

know , walk on actuals and just to

17:10

maintain the peace , even if that

17:12

means dishonoring your own needs and your

17:14

own body .

17:16

Yeah , and so I guess then a question

17:18

I would have is for people listening as well . For

17:20

myself is yep , this

17:22

resonates . You know , put my hand up like

17:24

cool , I'm in this category . So then

17:27

what ? What's the I guess , the process

17:29

forward . So I guess first step would be awareness

17:31

and and saying you know , yes , I had

17:33

narcissistic parents or I

17:36

went through emotional abuse . What do I do about it ? What do

17:38

I do about it ? How do I work through this ?

17:40

I think I kind of created my own system

17:42

for what I determine as

17:45

the awakening process . So

17:48

I'll describe a little bit about my story

17:50

. So I grew up

17:52

and what I like to say is a

17:54

non traditional or chaotic

17:56

household Sorry , mom and dad

17:58

, if you're listening , but it was it

18:00

was known to be very chaotic and very

18:02

disruptive in some way , and I

18:04

was a child of divorce , which was

18:06

very difficult , but not

18:09

only that . My dad was thrown

18:11

into , you know , the

18:13

world of single parenthood

18:15

and he had to raise daughters on

18:17

his own and also deal

18:19

with his own , had to battle with his

18:21

own demons of going through a divorce and dealing

18:23

with the shit that life throws

18:25

at you . And I think my dad

18:28

, knowing that he did the best that

18:30

he could . He still made his fair

18:32

share of mistakes in terms

18:34

of what he expected and

18:36

the way he wanted us to overachieve

18:39

constantly . And I was I

18:41

talk about this on my blog as well . I think I was

18:43

the golden child , and

18:45

so I grew up feeling like I

18:47

needed to be perfect , I

18:49

needed to people please , I needed to over extend

18:51

myself in order to receive

18:55

love or affection from the people , that

18:57

people around me , and

18:59

because of the Golden

19:01

Child Syndrome that I grew up with . I

19:04

. I was a victim to the

19:06

blame game , in the sense that I believe

19:08

that I could never be wrong

19:10

and everyone else around me was

19:12

always wrong , and I will

19:14

always point the finger at other people , because

19:16

I was so afraid of tapping

19:19

into my shadow self , which essentially

19:22

is the dark parts , or the dark repressed

19:24

parts of ourself that we don't like to acknowledge

19:27

Because I didn't want to deal with it , and

19:29

that happens to a lot of us . And

19:32

it was one thing to become aware of it

19:34

, which I , which I name

19:36

as like the oh moment , which

19:38

is kind of like . I kind of had this

19:40

revelation one day where I woke up and I said

19:42

, if I continue down this path , I'm going to

19:44

end up alone , Because I would

19:46

just , as I said before , I would like to discard

19:48

people . I would , I would , you

19:50

know , I would use people for personal

19:53

gain or to fill a void , which

19:55

were a lot of marquee traits . But

19:58

then I started to

20:00

tap into the concept of , you know , the spiritual

20:03

world and shadow self and whatnot , and

20:05

this is also where I noticed that

20:07

, or what I like to call is the

20:09

spiritual path . This is where I

20:11

noticed that I was doing something

20:13

called spiritual bypassing . So that's

20:16

essentially where you use spirituality as

20:18

a crutch to to

20:20

avoid dealing with the darker parts

20:23

of yourself . This is where I kind of described

20:25

like yoga and meditating and

20:27

journal prompting and all of that as

20:30

a way to try and feel like you're making progression

20:32

in in the world of spirituality

20:35

, but it's not really any form

20:37

of real deep , raw inner work

20:39

that you're doing , because it's all on

20:41

a superficial level . And then

20:43

eventually you start to realize that

20:45

those things only make you feel good momentarily

20:48

, but they don't really doesn't

20:50

really stop you from still

20:52

becoming triggered or still reacting

20:54

in a in a negative way . Then

20:56

, after a while , when you realize that

20:59

those things don't work and you start to actually look

21:01

upon the deeper , darker parts

21:03

of yourself and acknowledge that you are not

21:05

perfect and acknowledge that you

21:07

know , you have this old shit moment of

21:09

like wow , I'm , I'm

21:11

maybe really not a good person . And

21:14

it's during this phase

21:16

that I think you start to transition from

21:18

reacting to responding

21:21

and you get this kind of you

21:23

know revelation that being rightful

21:26

or validated is not really the

21:28

priority and you actually begin to value

21:30

interpersonal harmony with other people

21:32

instead . And that's when you

21:35

start to realize that love is all encompassing

21:37

and it's within you and it's within all people , and

21:40

you start to you start to see that

21:42

good and bad are

21:44

not true things but

21:47

rather socially constructed labels that

21:50

keep us in this constant state of anxiety

21:52

and depression . And I

21:55

think it's important not only for people

21:57

to become aware of

21:59

their past

22:01

, but also really

22:04

do the work and discover

22:06

, not what is wrong

22:08

with you , necessarily , but what

22:11

are the dysfunctional or negative

22:13

traits that you're displaying or the dysfunctional behaviors

22:16

that you're displaying . And so I talk a lot

22:18

about , or I try to advise people a lot

22:20

, to use journaling in

22:23

a very proactive way

22:26

to reflect upon

22:28

the moments where you probably didn't feel your

22:30

best or didn't do your best , or

22:32

you felt guilty in some way , or

22:34

you did something disruptive

22:37

that maybe made you feel horrible the next

22:39

day . And in a case

22:41

in my situation , I think it was that

22:43

I would , you know , I would go out drinking

22:46

or I would hyper sexualize myself in order

22:48

to feel good . And even though I felt good in

22:50

the moment , I would always wake up the next day feeling

22:52

horrible . And I

22:54

started to journal on those

22:56

instances and as

22:59

time went by and I would look back on it , I

23:01

would see , I would see the

23:03

trajectory or the patterns

23:05

that I was , I was

23:07

, you know , creating or following

23:10

and I think it really , really helped

23:12

me to just ground myself and stop

23:15

doing those behaviors .

23:16

Essentially , yeah , awesome

23:19

, Awesome . So you have , like the

23:21

, the , the , so much good

23:23

stuff that you said in there , but

23:25

sort of it was like you know , you have this oh

23:27

shit moment , like okay , a fucked up

23:29

kind of thing , and then you know

23:31

you sort of shift from that reacting

23:34

to responding and then seeing

23:36

that , yeah , good and bad , it just labels as just a

23:38

story and really reflecting

23:41

on it and it sounds almost like you know , really just taking

23:43

responsibility for , for how

23:45

you feel , how you act and and so on . And

23:47

, like you said , you know you mentioned spiritual bypassing

23:49

, which I think is a really big point

23:52

, a really big thing that a lot of

23:54

people do , and

23:56

also I'm not aware of just

23:58

the impact of it . Like , I mean , I've done it for sure

24:00

, I know tons of people who have done it and maybe

24:02

it's just part of the process , but I think it's like

24:05

bringing awareness to that of of you

24:07

know , like a lot of these

24:09

things like journaling , meditation , you know , like you

24:11

said , yoga , even these things , like

24:13

you said , scratch the surface maybe or help in

24:15

the moment , but to really get

24:17

into that deep work and really go into the shadows

24:20

and the darkest parts of ourselves and

24:22

bring light and bring love and really

24:24

bring self acceptance . You

24:26

know , I think , like you said , takes

24:28

a lot of you know , whether it's journaling and really

24:30

reflecting , whether it's , for me , a big part

24:33

of it was doing

24:35

somatic therapy and plant

24:37

medicine and exploring , you know

24:39

, these different parts of ourselves

24:41

that we've , you know , locked away or shunned or

24:43

disconnected from because we're

24:46

a ashamed of them , and really bringing everything

24:48

kind of back into alignment , which

24:50

is , yeah , it's really cool . I really like

24:52

the process .

24:54

Yeah , I think you actually summarized it perfectly

24:56

. And that's not to say that those

24:58

things are not important , because I think

25:00

they are and they do work and they

25:02

do help momentarily to help you or

25:05

at least , at least you know , thrust you

25:07

into the process . I

25:09

just think it's important to not become dependent

25:12

on those things Because when that happens

25:14

, then you start to , you

25:16

know , neglect the deeper

25:18

, more important work that you need

25:20

to be doing . You know , I

25:23

mean , I think healing is an integrative

25:25

process and you need to incorporate

25:27

all of those things . I

25:30

just think it's important to acknowledge

25:32

or realize that there is a lot more

25:35

that needs to be scratched

25:37

beyond the surface . But

25:40

it's difficult and I know that it's very difficult

25:42

for people to turn around and point the finger back at

25:44

themselves and say you know

25:46

I'm , I'm kind of a shitty person

25:49

and I kind of need to work on myself

25:51

. It's , it's , I mean , your ego will

25:53

. It's very hard for your ego

25:55

to allow you to do that right , because it's protecting

25:57

you and wants you to have a stable sense of identity

26:00

, wants you to feel good about yourself . But

26:02

I think part of doing the work is to just

26:04

, you know , quiet your ego . There's no way to

26:06

actually erase your ego , but it's just to

26:08

quiet down your ego , especially in moments

26:10

where you're feeling triggered . And

26:13

I think I think the word trigger is a very

26:15

interesting concept because

26:17

it's something that in our generation

26:20

today we use a lot the word triggered

26:22

. So I

26:24

think I think it's important to just acknowledge that

26:26

it's in those moments that , when you do

26:28

get triggered , you move

26:31

from reacting to responding , as you said , and

26:33

you just become more in tune with

26:35

your , you know authentic self , your

26:38

values , you know responding

26:40

to the situation rather than reacting

26:42

to whatever your identity

26:45

thinks it should be or

26:47

whatever the situation thinks it should be

26:49

, and just becoming a

26:51

more calm

26:53

and clear headed and grounded person

26:55

.

26:55

And I think doing shadow work and

26:57

reconnecting with your inner child really , really helps

26:59

with Absolutely , and I

27:02

love what you mentioned as well about , like you know

27:04

, we , all you know tend to

27:06

look outside of ourselves for , like , the

27:08

problem and the threat , which I think

27:11

makes sense from an like , a biological

27:13

standpoint , because you know , when animals

27:15

are in the wild , like , you're focused externally , like where

27:17

is the threat ? You know how do I protect

27:19

myself , how do I escape . And so I

27:22

think it's natural that all of us do

27:24

, you know , look to an external , you

27:27

know , thing for a threat , and sometimes it is an external

27:29

threat . That's , I guess that's the tricky thing is , you

27:32

know you can have external threats , but then

27:34

a lot of it you come to

27:36

realize is just inside of

27:38

us . You know it's just internal work , it's learning

27:41

to release the stuff that we

27:43

couldn't release when we were children because it wasn't safe

27:45

for us to feel these big emotions . And

27:48

so it's , like you said , with the triggers

27:50

, you know , getting pushed and

27:52

prodded by life in these awesome

27:54

ways . It's like it allows

27:57

this stuff to come up and gives it a voice

27:59

. And until , like

28:01

, until we give it a voice , I find

28:03

and express it in a healthy way , like

28:05

with whatever darkness , that is

28:07

, whether it's shame or guilt or sadness

28:10

or grief or any of it or

28:12

all of it , you know , then

28:14

it's like it just stays stuck

28:16

in us and it just drains our life force

28:18

, energy , you know , and and

28:21

you know , to bring back to that , I guess , the nervous system . You

28:23

know it takes a lot of energy for your nervous

28:25

system to hold these emotions

28:28

inside the body and can disrupt

28:30

, you know , eating and appetite

28:32

and all of these internal biological

28:34

processes . So it's , it's , I find like

28:36

I'm super passionate and interested about the

28:38

like , the emotional , and then the

28:41

impact that that has on the body and the mind

28:43

, and bringing , you know , bringing both

28:45

into alignment and and , like you said , quieting

28:47

down the mind and the ego and just giving

28:49

space for it all .

28:51

Yeah , yeah , you're absolutely

28:53

right that it does . Trauma

28:55

really does impact the nervous system

28:57

, specifically the sympathetic nervous system

28:59

. So what that does is it stimulates the

29:01

production of the adrenal hormones

29:03

. So that's what causes the fight and flight

29:06

, the hyper vigilance , the hyperactivity

29:08

that need to constantly be on the go , which

29:10

could manifest in many different ways

29:13

, and also cortisol

29:15

as well , which is the stress hormone , which is very

29:18

impactful on our bodies . I

29:20

think , yeah , I think , you're absolutely right

29:22

in the sense that it does impact us on

29:25

a very , very

29:27

, very comprehensive , systemic way

29:30

. You know , trauma has a

29:33

relational , physiological , biochemical

29:36

, a psych , like a psychological and

29:38

a behavioral component , so really impacts

29:40

us in every single way . And

29:42

, yeah , so I do think it's important to

29:44

shed light on that Definitely .

29:46

Yeah for sure , I totally agree . So

29:49

I guess , for people who don't

29:52

totally identify as being traumatized

29:54

and struggle to

29:56

, maybe they're putting the blame on themselves instead of

29:58

, say , putting the blame on their parents or pointing

30:01

the finger at us . Maybe they're pointing it inwards and saying like

30:03

I'm a piece of shit , I'm worthless . Ra

30:06

, ra , ra . Would you like , would this

30:08

process , do you think , help those

30:10

people as well ? Like , is it helpful to sort of

30:12

? I guess it all just comes back to the

30:14

awareness of what you're doing to

30:17

begin with , and then you can sort of build a map

30:19

from there .

30:21

So it's actually interesting that you bring that

30:23

up , because it's not

30:25

to say that all of us have endured

30:27

what we would deem as trauma

30:29

, but all of us , as

30:31

children , are like a blank canvas

30:34

right . We all come into the world extremely

30:36

pure and then we are impacted

30:38

by the experiences that we go through , whether

30:41

you want to deem that as traumatic or

30:43

not . But you

30:45

didn't come into this world thinking I'm a piece

30:48

of shit . You know , you

30:50

, something happened for you to

30:52

develop that , what we call in the psychological

30:54

realm a core belief about yourself

30:57

, whether that's being worthless or

30:59

unlovable or , you know , not

31:01

worthy of good people and good relationships

31:04

, and that impacts your internal

31:06

working model of the world , to basically how you

31:08

view the world and how people , how you think

31:10

people view you , how you react to the

31:12

world , etc . And so forth . And

31:14

so something must have happened

31:17

for you to view yourself that way , whether

31:19

that's coming from , you know , a

31:21

bad relationship , your , your caregivers

31:24

, your , your peers at school

31:26

. It could have been anything , even a teacher

31:28

, even a nanny , it could have been literally

31:30

anything , but something had to

31:32

have happened , and I even have a

31:34

blog titled , but nothing really happened

31:37

, because I hear this a lot through

31:39

people that I've spoken to , through the stories that

31:41

I hear about their upbringing . They

31:44

always tell me but that's

31:46

not trauma . I wasn't traumatized , which

31:48

I think again goes back to how

31:50

we as a society or within the media

31:53

classify or , you

31:55

know , define trauma . But

31:58

in general , I do believe that

32:00

if you do have dysfunctional

32:03

patterns in terms of behavior or

32:05

a dysfunctional way of thinking , whether that's about other

32:07

people or about yourself something

32:09

has to have happened , and I think it's important to

32:11

shed to yourself

32:14

, to become aware of what

32:17

that moment , or several moments

32:19

, were which caused you to become that way

32:21

. The thing is is I want to stress

32:23

that it's not enough to just become

32:26

aware of your

32:28

shitty upbringing or something bad that has

32:30

happened to you , because a lot

32:32

of people do that and a lot of people can acknowledge

32:35

that they went through something negative , but

32:37

then they resort to playing

32:40

the victim and not taking

32:42

accountability for what they went through , which

32:44

is why it's also important for me

32:46

to stress

32:49

upon the fact that you need to take accountability

32:51

for your own life . It doesn't

32:54

matter what has happened to you , it doesn't matter what

32:56

someone did to you , it doesn't matter you

32:59

know what kind of upbringing you had . What

33:01

matters is how you do or

33:04

how you change your life with the resources

33:06

that you have now , and it's

33:08

kind of I mean , it's

33:11

kind of a win-win on both ends , because if

33:13

you take accountability for you

33:15

know your life right now , it helps you to

33:17

not feel so like

33:20

not in control and it

33:22

helps you to feel less helpless

33:24

in terms of you know the trajectory of

33:26

your life and you get to choose

33:28

how you want to end up in life

33:31

. I truly believe that we all have

33:33

the power within us to you know , manifest

33:35

the life that we want , and

33:37

we are in control of

33:39

our destiny . No one else , just

33:41

you , and I think it's that's why it's so important

33:44

to do the work , you know

33:46

and hold yourself accountable and also

33:48

be aware , so that you can end up

33:50

having the life that you want .

33:52

Absolutely . I think , yeah , I totally

33:54

agree . And especially

33:57

like I think , yeah , like there's a it's

33:59

a fine balance of , yeah

34:01

, like you said , processing what you went through but not

34:03

becoming a victim . And you know

34:05

, poor me and woe is me . And I totally

34:07

agree about what you said about you

34:10

know , being a victim makes you feel out of control

34:12

. You know , because this thing's happening to

34:14

me , I can't control it , like this

34:16

person's doing this , and so it's very much

34:19

I'm out of control and this person's

34:21

in control . It's a very disempowering place

34:23

to be . So I think

34:25

that's a really cool point and to really , you

34:27

know , like you said , have that accountability for yourself

34:30

and taking that responsibility of you

34:32

know I can't change what happened to me , but I can

34:34

change how I respond and how I , how

34:36

I react and where I

34:38

go from here . And I think like that's

34:41

a much more empowering way to look at it and

34:43

, like you said , you feel in control , you can take actions

34:46

, you can take steps to , like you said , go

34:48

after what you want and and

34:50

yeah , I totally agree with that it's cool .

34:52

Yeah , I think it's actually a very good summary

34:54

of it . It's , it's , you

34:56

know , it's just acknowledging that you are

34:58

in control of your life , and

35:00

I mean , sometimes it can be hard

35:03

, but if you do the work you can end up on

35:05

top at the end , for sure , for sure

35:07

.

35:08

And so I guess this might be segue a little bit into like

35:11

, because you are a clinical researcher , what is

35:13

, what is some of that ? I guess the

35:15

science or the , the research that you've

35:18

come across , that you're like , wow

35:20

, this is incredible , that

35:22

if you have anything that you can share , that kind

35:24

of helps people , yeah , understand .

35:26

So so yeah , I'm currently a researcher

35:29

at the Douglas hospital

35:31

here , based in Montreal , and I work at the

35:33

suicide epidemiology lab . So

35:35

we investigate the social , environmental

35:38

and genetic biomarkers that leads to the trajectory

35:40

of suicide , and one of

35:42

those happens to be childhood maltreatment

35:45

. And you

35:47

know there was a project that I was working on recently

35:49

so we haven't really published

35:51

the results yet , but I thought we

35:53

were . We were working on a project where

35:55

we were looking at how childhood maltreatment

35:58

actually leads

36:00

to , you know , certain mediating

36:02

factors , which I'll go into , but

36:04

then also leads to more

36:07

suicidal thoughts and behaviors

36:09

later in adulthood . And

36:11

some of those mediating factors are

36:13

, as I spoke about , the

36:16

dysfunctional behaviors . So , because

36:18

trauma dysregulates your nervous system and

36:20

it causes you to become not only hypervigilant

36:22

but also hyperactive , it

36:24

impacts that part of the brain , you

36:26

know , the frontal lobe , where it tells

36:28

you to just calm the fuck down

36:31

, and because of that

36:33

you end up becoming impulsive and

36:35

you end up doing , you know

36:37

, a lot of things that are maybe

36:40

not harmful to you in the moment but could be

36:42

harmful later . So I would

36:44

say that's like doing a lot of drugs or partying

36:46

or becoming hypersexual , and

36:49

those are kind of gateway mechanisms

36:51

that would lead us into

36:53

depression and anxiety and then suicidality

36:56

, maybe later . But it's those

36:59

mediating factors that are extremely important

37:01

because we want to try and focus on prevention

37:04

and because

37:06

parenting doesn't come with a handbook

37:08

. It's very hard for us to target parenting

37:11

and you know your parent is going to say or do something

37:13

that might fuck you up later . But it's those

37:15

mediating factors and preventing

37:17

you from doing those dysfunctional

37:20

things and dysfunctional behaviors , and trying to control

37:23

the stress or the effect

37:25

that the stress has on your body , in

37:27

order to not lead you into becoming

37:30

, you know , an impulsive person

37:32

and reinforcing

37:34

the cycle of depression and anxiety

37:36

in your body , which could lead to suicide

37:39

.

37:40

Do you find that , like in the beginning

37:42

, like it starts with depression or anxiety

37:44

and kind of snowballs into suicide or

37:46

what's sort of the journey that someone

37:49

can sort of slide into suicide

37:51

? Do you find ?

37:53

So I think there's a lot of trajectories

37:55

for suicide , so I think it's hard to

37:57

just pinpoint one , but it

37:59

doesn't necessarily have to start with

38:02

depression and anxiety , but

38:04

I think it's just , in general

38:06

, certain it's

38:09

, it's , it's certain behaviors

38:11

that could , you

38:13

know , lead you into

38:15

you know , I don't want to say cause , but could lead

38:17

you into developing depression

38:20

or anxiety . And most

38:23

of the time not always , but most of the time

38:25

those would display suicidal tendencies or have

38:27

suicidal thoughts and behaviors are bathing

38:29

with some form of depression or

38:32

anxiety . And I think

38:34

it's kind of bi-directional . I think it's like a

38:36

, it's a cycle of reinforcement . You know , if

38:38

you are , if you are bathing with

38:40

dark thoughts or negative thoughts , you

38:43

will tend to act out those thoughts

38:45

in dysfunctional ways , and

38:47

then those dysfunctional behaviors are going

38:50

to reinforce your anxiety and depression even

38:52

more . So it's kind of like a negative loop

38:54

, and so that's why I think it's important

38:56

to focus on , you know , the dysfunctional

38:59

behaviors and target those

39:01

, rather than just , you

39:03

know , maybe going to therapy not

39:05

to discredit CBT at all or therapy

39:07

at all but it's important to target

39:10

those dysfunctional behaviors rather than just

39:12

going to therapy and , you know , talking

39:15

about your depression and your anxiety , or even

39:17

taking medication to like , such as serotonin

39:19

. We uptake inhibitors to try

39:22

and pause the depression , but

39:24

I just think it's really , really important to

39:26

you know , shed light on the fact that the

39:29

way that you respond to the world and the way that you act

39:32

within the world and the way that you do

39:35

certain things is a reinforcer

39:37

of the negative thoughts that you have in

39:39

your head . So I just think it's

39:42

important to raise awareness

39:44

regarding that .

39:45

Absolutely . And so I guess , when you say

39:48

sort of the behaviors around

39:50

, sort of suicide and how that can like

39:53

, by targeting those you can sort

39:55

of help prevent or reduce suicide . What

39:57

would be some of the , I guess , behavioral

40:00

tendencies that you would expect

40:02

to see in someone with that

40:05

is suicidal , I guess .

40:07

A lot of the time , within the research

40:09

that we have of suicide , that is

40:11

linked to impulsivity . It's

40:14

funny because trauma is actually linked

40:16

to an increase in impulsivity because

40:19

it disrupts that neural circuitry that you

40:21

have where you make more rational decisions

40:24

. So I

40:26

guess that's mainly the big thing that I

40:28

would say , because , even if it's

40:30

on accident , impulsivity

40:33

can lead to a lot of

40:35

things . If

40:38

you're an impulsive person and you don't really

40:40

think much before you act

40:43

, you could be the type of person that would

40:45

drink a lot and then

40:47

you get into the car and you get behind the wheel

40:49

and then you accidentally end up

40:51

killing yourself or someone else . And

40:55

then even that , if you drink a lot and

40:57

you are already bathing with your own inner demons

40:59

and depression and

41:03

alcohol in general kind of lowers

41:06

your inhibition , so you're more likely

41:08

to do stupid things

41:10

when that happens . And

41:12

so I think yeah , I think , to answer your question

41:14

I think impulsivity is probably one of the biggest

41:17

things that we would see in patients

41:19

who have suicidality , which is linked

41:21

to trauma . So I think it's an interesting

41:23

loop as well .

41:25

It's interesting , yeah , that it's all connected . Yeah

41:29

, I mean it makes a lot of sense , especially what you mentioned

41:31

about the trauma causing

41:34

you to be in that sympathetic state in your nervous

41:37

system to be more hyperactive , hypervigilant

41:39

and then therefore more impulsive . And

41:42

so it's almost like by

41:44

dealing with the trauma and dealing with

41:46

that root issue or that root cause

41:48

, it seems like it would help

41:51

fix those behaviors , because you're targeting

41:53

that impulsivity at the source .

41:56

Yeah , Definitely , yeah , definitely

41:58

, and I mean yeah also

42:00

not just the hyperactivity , but , as you just mentioned

42:02

, the point of hypervigilance , I think is also important

42:05

, because I think being hypervigilant

42:07

in general will

42:09

will cause you to have maybe

42:11

more emotionally negative thoughts , which

42:14

could increase your depression and your anxiety . You

42:17

know , and that's also something that they target in

42:19

cognitive behavioral therapy because

42:21

you tend to be more aware

42:25

of the negative things

42:27

that are happening around you . And

42:29

when you are more hypervigilant to the negative things

42:31

that are happening around you or threats , as we like

42:33

to call it you're more likely to

42:35

misinterpret that information , which

42:37

could reinforce sadness and depression

42:40

inside of you . You know , I mean , it could

42:42

be something as simple and I was a victim . I

42:44

was like a victim to this as well , but I , you

42:46

know , if my friends

42:48

had a dinner and did not invite

42:50

me , my automatic thought was you

42:52

know , they don't like me , I'm not lovable , I'm

42:54

not worthy of anything , and that would

42:56

cause me to react in a negative way towards my

42:59

friends , which would then push them away , reinforcing

43:01

the thought that , okay , my friends don't like me , without

43:04

realizing that it could have just been

43:06

any other reason that you know , they could have been

43:08

full . It could have been full , they

43:10

could have been just busy or they forgot to text

43:12

me . You know like human reasons as

43:14

to why and we just

43:16

we tend to forget and we just become . You know it's

43:19

like constant loop of like negativity in

43:21

your head and you know the thoughts build

43:23

up and then you become impulsive and you

43:25

become hyperactive and you do things that are disruptive

43:27

or , you know , dysfunctional

43:29

and yeah , I think it's . It's

43:32

really a negative loop , but it's , I mean

43:34

, it's workable on definitely .

43:37

Yeah , it's interesting to like , just even

43:39

like that

43:41

coming back to like as a hyper vigilance of even

43:44

if the threat isn't real , you

43:46

know , even if it's just a perceived threat

43:48

that is real , then

43:50

like it can have the same impact

43:52

in the nervous system . Like

43:54

you said , if we don't have all the information or we don't know

43:56

, you know why something's happening , then

43:58

it can be like oh , this is a threat

44:01

, this is a threat , this is a threat and , like you said , like

44:03

it becomes a learned response and it just , you

44:05

know , like keeps cycling

44:07

through . I think that's it's really

44:09

important point to make . And then

44:11

I guess my question would be

44:13

then does that mean and this

44:15

is something I've been finding in myself , but I'd

44:17

love to ask you , being that you're a researcher , would

44:21

it then , if this , all of this stuff , is linked to the

44:23

sympathetic nervous system , would it then make

44:25

sense to try and put

44:27

yourself into a parasympathetic state

44:30

as much as possible ? Or how

44:32

, what would you sort of ? How do you

44:34

come down out of that hyper vigilance and

44:36

hyperactivity ?

44:37

Sympathetic and like the sympathetic

44:40

nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system are not

44:42

mutually exclusive , so like it's not that if one is turned

44:44

on , the other is turned off , but

44:46

in terms of being less

44:48

hyperactive and less hyper vigilant , yes

44:50

, it's definitely extremely important to do

44:52

those things , and I think

44:54

that kind of goes back to monitoring

44:57

and modifying your behavior and

44:59

your thoughts . So this

45:01

is why it's important to , as I said before

45:03

, maybe journal upon those things

45:05

, because then you become more aware

45:07

of your behaviors , Because

45:09

if you're just constantly doing things and living on autopilot

45:12

, you're never going to reflect upon some

45:14

of the things that you do that might be dysfunctional towards

45:16

your emotional health or your mental health . And

45:19

so if you , you know , if you kind of just

45:21

if you just become more aware or

45:24

you monitor your behaviors or your negative thoughts

45:26

by doing that , you

45:28

will naturally modify

45:30

your behavior because you'll be able to pinpoint

45:33

when and where it is that you are

45:35

acting in a dysfunctional way or in a way that

45:37

doesn't serve you .

45:38

Yeah , sorry

45:41

, my cat's just popped up on

45:43

the screen . Yeah , no

45:45

, I think that that's a really important point too , and

45:48

, and I love that idea

45:50

of just keeping track in , in

45:52

, in , like whether it's a spreadsheet , whether it's a

45:54

journal , like when this happens

45:56

, I react in this way , or , and

45:59

, and , like you said , not only seeing a pattern , but

46:01

, like you said , once you see , oh

46:03

, this is what happens , then you can naturally

46:06

course correct , which I think is really cool , definitely

46:09

. Yeah , yeah , awesome , awesome

46:11

, and so . So , as a researcher , will

46:13

you sort of continue into the suicide

46:16

, sort of like specialization

46:18

, or do you sort of your

46:21

next move , I guess , or what's your passion

46:23

in that sense ?

46:25

No . So right now , you know . So I'm

46:27

a psych student on the way to becoming a licensed

46:29

professional psychologist fingers crossed

46:32

, and so I also just love

46:34

research in general , because

46:36

I really do think that it contributes to like the

46:39

field of knowledge that we have , but

46:41

it also allows us to , you know , think

46:44

of the treatment towards , you

46:46

know , the things that we , the

46:49

disorders that we have or the dysfunctional

46:51

symptoms that we display . But

46:53

my passion actually lies

46:56

in childhood and developmental trauma and how

46:58

that leads to dysfunctional outcomes in adulthood

47:00

. So obviously one of the outcomes is suicide

47:02

, but it's , it's not the only

47:05

outcome , and I think there's a

47:07

lot more important outcomes that we should

47:09

be focusing on , which is why I stress

47:11

so much and talk so much about dysfunctional

47:14

behaviors . It's around us everywhere

47:16

. It's in our everyday life , the way that

47:18

we act and the way we move , and

47:20

a lot of the times we don't realize that some of

47:22

our behaviors are not serving us to

47:25

the highest extent that they should be . And

47:28

those dysfunctional behaviors

47:30

that I talk about , they I kind

47:33

of like to categorize them in two ways , because

47:35

you know , you could have . You

47:37

could have like a little girl that grows up with a

47:39

narcissistic parent or a narcissistic father

47:42

and as she grows

47:44

up , what she will try to do is she will try to

47:46

seek out experiences that

47:48

mimicked her childhood relationship with her father

47:50

to try and subconsciously

47:54

fix that relationship . So that's why

47:56

she'd be more attracted to narcissistic

47:58

men or get into abusive relationships . But

48:00

then you could also have and the other , the other

48:02

side of the

48:05

spectrum , where the person would actually become

48:07

a void and and try and avoid situations

48:10

that they had in their childhood , leading

48:13

them to become a loner

48:15

or become isolated or , you know

48:17

, not be able to form real relationships with

48:19

people . I just think that talking

48:23

about dysfunctional behaviors , or shedding light on

48:25

them , because they are so pervasive

48:27

and invisible to the eye

48:29

and because they seem so high

48:31

functioning , I think it's important

48:33

to shed light on those , because sometimes

48:36

you do not realize that what you're

48:38

doing is actually causing you

48:40

a lot more interterminal than

48:42

you think and it's also reinforcing

48:45

a lot more negative trajectories

48:47

in your life . You know , because one

48:49

bad relationship could lead to I

48:52

don't know drinking , it

48:54

could lead to drug use , it could lead to hypersexuality

48:58

, and then you could , you

49:00

know , get into another relationship and that

49:02

person could be very good to you and very healthy

49:04

, but you would have adopted negative

49:06

, negative like behaviors

49:08

from your abusive relationship , and so

49:10

it's like a constant cycle

49:13

of just bad , bad , bad , like one after

49:15

the other . And so that's why I think it's important

49:17

to just realize , you know , some

49:20

behaviors are really really not

49:23

serving you at all .

49:25

Yeah , I think that's a really good point

49:28

to make too , about just the

49:30

subconsciously recreating these experiences

49:33

so that we can learn . I mean , I have definitely

49:35

done that , you know , like

49:37

with different family members . I've then gone on and

49:39

recreated romantic relationships

49:42

just and then being like , oh , this is actually

49:44

really similar to my upbringing , and then

49:46

realizing , yeah , like this is my

49:48

own , I've recreated this

49:50

as a way to learn and teach myself

49:52

a lesson , which is actually like really cool

49:54

when you think about it , but at the time it's

49:56

not so fun . But

49:58

yeah , and I think , like you said , like I think

50:01

you can get caught in that trap of just

50:03

you know , this is who I am , like

50:05

I , I like bad guys or

50:07

I like this , or blah , blah , blah , and and

50:09

it can almost it sounds like become an identity

50:11

. You know we identify with this , and then

50:14

you know we're like , oh , but this is just who

50:16

I am , and it's like well , is it ? Is

50:18

it really ? You know you can change this

50:20

, you know you can change your identity , you

50:22

can change the things that you know , the

50:24

relationships that you go after and seek

50:26

after . So I think , yeah , I think it's , it's

50:28

really cool , like , like you say , comes back to

50:30

that , that reflecting and that kind

50:33

of almost having like this zooming out

50:35

and and having this birds eye kind

50:38

of perspective of what am I doing

50:40

and where am I going to be if I keep

50:42

going on this path , as I

50:44

am , sort of what you mentioned before . I had . I had a similar

50:47

moment in a relationship where I was like , if

50:49

I stay here , like this is just going to be my life

50:52

for the next five , ten years and

50:54

I'm like I don't want that for myself

50:56

. So it's like you know you can stay

50:58

or you can go into the unknown

51:00

and figure it out . So

51:03

yeah , but you know , like I think

51:05

it's , it's scary for a lot of people , for all

51:07

of us to , you know , take

51:09

that step back and go . And

51:11

I guess that comes back to what we're talking about with responsibility

51:14

and accountability of you know , seeing

51:16

, seeing the role that we play in our own life

51:18

and how , like you said , how our childhood and

51:21

our parents really influence and

51:23

affect that . Yeah , definitely .

51:26

I do want to point out , though , that I think

51:28

it is extremely , extremely , extremely

51:31

hard to get to that point where

51:33

you realize , or you acknowledge

51:36

that you are reenacting childhood

51:39

to womb those yours . You know , and it's and

51:42

I talk a lot about , you know , narcissistic relationships

51:45

, even romantic ones , because I I

51:48

was in two abusive relationships , and

51:51

when you're in it , it's

51:53

really , really hard to get out of it . You

51:55

know , I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of a trauma bond . Yeah , so

51:58

it's , it's something that's really , really hard , and

52:01

I try to encourage the people that I

52:03

talk to with regards to this that you know

52:05

you should be compassionate , you

52:07

should be compassionate towards yourself and

52:09

acknowledge that these relationships that you

52:11

are seeking out Not

52:14

only are they coming as a as

52:16

a consequence of your childhood upbringing because you're

52:18

seeking those experiences out again but

52:20

also the concept of physiological

52:23

addiction to , to the ups

52:25

and downs . If you grew up in a chaotic

52:27

childhood , you become

52:29

addicted to having

52:32

an intermittent , intermittent cycle

52:34

of good and bad , and

52:37

so it's really hard for you to

52:39

put yourself in stable and consistent

52:41

and healthy relationships or

52:44

stable , consistent and healthy situations , whether

52:47

that's a job , or friendships

52:49

or or romantic

52:51

love . It's really hard

52:53

to get out of those , not only because

52:55

on a psychological and

52:57

emotional level , you kind of want

53:00

to create that situation again , but because

53:02

on a physiological level , you're

53:04

addicted to that feeling . So

53:06

I think it's important to acknowledge that , the

53:09

same way you would treat a drug

53:11

addiction and and you

53:14

know , you wouldn't blame the drug , the

53:16

drug addict , for the way that they are , you should

53:18

also show compassion towards yourself . If you are

53:20

this kind of person that is constantly

53:22

putting yourself in situations like that , just

53:24

acknowledge that you

53:27

are . You are on a genetic

53:29

level on , on a biological level

53:31

, on a physiological level , unable

53:33

to function without it , and

53:36

so I think it's really important to you

53:38

know , do the work on yourself , but also

53:40

be very slow and compassionate

53:43

towards yourself as well .

53:46

I think that's a really good point as well . Interesting

53:49

, I didn't know about the physiological element

53:51

, but that makes a lot of sense that you

53:54

can be physiologically addicted to

53:56

, yeah , like a situation or a person and , and

53:58

just like you said , having that compassion

54:00

is really important . Otherwise

54:03

, I think it would just exacerbate the situation

54:05

and keep you stuck . But it's

54:07

almost like our upbringing

54:09

is normal to us . You know

54:12

it's , it's a comfort zone of , of

54:14

, of a sense , and so

54:16

, like we mentioned before , yeah , like

54:18

it's , it's hard to identify and go this

54:20

is abusive or because this is my normal

54:23

, you know this is my , what

54:25

I'm used to , and then you

54:27

kind of look for things that can affirm

54:29

that or situations , like you said , that

54:31

align with that comfort zone . So I

54:34

think it's a really good point to that it's

54:36

important to go slow and

54:38

have compassion and kindness for yourself

54:41

, and also that it can be really

54:43

, really difficult to get to that point of making a change

54:45

. So I think , yeah

54:48

, kudos to everyone who does .

54:50

Yeah , I think so too . Yeah , and

54:52

to add on to your point about confirming

54:55

that you have that kind of goes back

54:57

to what we were talking about earlier about having

54:59

, you know , core beliefs of like being unlovable and

55:02

being unworthy , I

55:04

acknowledge that those destructive

55:06

, destructive or sorry destructive

55:08

behaviors and like dysfunctional behaviors

55:10

that you have adopted are

55:12

there as a result

55:14

of your ego trying to protect you . So

55:17

in the moment it seems self

55:19

serving , but on a long scale

55:21

, on a long term scale , it's not . And

55:24

so you know , for

55:26

me , I remember instances

55:28

where if I felt rejected in any way

55:30

because it was so important

55:32

to me to overextend and overachieve , if

55:34

I felt rejected in any way , whether that came from

55:36

a romantic partner or from a job rejection

55:39

or whatever it may be , it would bring

55:41

up like core

55:43

wounds or core beliefs that I inhabited

55:45

through childhood of being , you know

55:47

, not good enough . And in order to

55:49

like confirm

55:52

that belief within myself , I would go out

55:54

into the world and act in a way to

55:56

reaffirm that belief that I had

55:58

of myself . So not feeling good enough , so

56:01

, or not feeling like worthy of real love , so

56:03

that would maybe be going out and

56:05

, you know , getting shit face and

56:07

not feeling good about myself the next day , or going

56:09

out and , you know , acting in a hyper sexual

56:12

way and then regretting it the next day . So you're

56:14

kind of just , you're trying to , you're trying to

56:16

like , re confirm

56:18

that belief that you have of yourself , because

56:20

it feels better to not have

56:22

this cognitive dissonance where

56:25

you're thinking one thing but you know thinking another

56:27

thing , and sometimes it feels better to

56:29

just act in the way that you think but

56:32

it's actually , on a long term scale , very

56:34

detrimental towards you . So

56:36

it's just important to acknowledge , you know

56:38

, if you do ever feel triggered , or

56:40

you do feel , you know , rejected , or

56:42

you feel like a negative , icky feeling , try

56:45

and tap into why

56:47

you're feeling that way and what kind of

56:50

feelings about yourself . Is it judging

56:52

up for you ? Are you feeling maybe unlovable

56:55

? Are you feeling worthless ? And

56:57

doing that might

56:59

help minimize the impact of the behavior

57:02

that follows or it might actually help

57:04

the behavior that follows completely . So

57:06

you might actually not go out into the world

57:08

and act in a dysfunctional way if you can just

57:10

acknowledge like , okay , right

57:12

now , you know I got rejected from this job

57:15

and it's making me feel like I'm not good

57:17

enough and it's making me feel like I'm not worthy of good

57:19

things . But I'm just going to let the thought

57:21

pass . I'm going to , like you know , ride the wave

57:23

and just let the thought pass and I

57:25

think doing that helps you stay grounded and

57:28

, you know , it also allows you to just not

57:31

become so hyperactive and so impulsive

57:33

.

57:33

Going back to impulsivity , yeah

57:36

, totally , totally , I think . I

57:38

think that's a really cool process to

57:41

really slow down and

57:45

noticing what's

57:47

going on in my mind , what's going on in my body . And

57:50

, you know , because a lot of these things , a lot of

57:52

these situations and triggers can put

57:54

us , you know , stir up this stuff and we're

57:56

like , ah , you know , into that , you

57:59

know hyperactivity state and

58:01

so to really just kind

58:03

of almost just slowed out and be like I'm

58:05

not , not going to act , but I'm just going to pause

58:08

, you know , and and feel like

58:10

, where do I feel this emotion in my body ? Or , you

58:12

know , is this thought true ? Or what is this

58:15

saying about me ? And , like you said , what is this bringing

58:17

up ? And can I , can I just allow

58:19

it to come up , can I just observe it

58:21

and not get sucked into it and think

58:23

it's the end of the world ?

58:24

And as challenging

58:27

as that can be at times , from personal

58:29

experience , yeah

58:31

, it's actually very , very , very hard to do

58:33

, but it's it's

58:35

that it's actually . What you described

58:38

right now is actually one of the principles of dbt

58:40

, which is a type

58:42

of therapy that is beneficial

58:44

for those who have borderline personality

58:46

disorders or any form of cluster B in general

58:49

. It's more about this we

58:51

call radical acceptance , so

58:53

you're never not going

58:55

to feel negative , you know , you're never

58:57

not going to feel sad or angry or

59:00

emotional . In a way , it's

59:02

important to accept that

59:05

you're having this emotion without

59:07

labeling it or judging the

59:09

emotion and not reacting in

59:12

the moment and on the spot . And

59:14

just , you know , I , I

59:17

like to see emotions , as

59:19

you know , fleeting , and you know they come

59:21

and go throughout the day , but

59:23

it's when we ruminate

59:25

on those emotions and we like , really think about

59:27

them and we label them and we judge them , and

59:30

that's what causes us to go out into the

59:32

world and and react rather than

59:34

, as you said , respond and slow down

59:36

, and , you know , just acknowledge and let

59:38

it pass . So , yeah

59:41

, definitely , I think you know , slowing down

59:43

and calming your mind and becoming

59:45

aware of what you're feeling and becoming more in tune with

59:47

your body really helps , which

59:49

is where I think meditation and yoga

59:51

do fall into helping

59:53

, because they definitely do allow

59:56

you to become more

59:58

in tune with yourself and your emotions

1:00:00

. So that definitely does help beyond

1:00:03

the inner work and the shadow work that you need to be doing

1:00:05

as well .

1:00:07

Yeah , it's really cool . It's something like I

1:00:10

mean , I know I used to think there were good emotions

1:00:12

and bad emotions or negative emotions

1:00:14

, and you know we need to . I need to just avoid

1:00:17

feeling shame and guilt

1:00:19

and fear . Fear has been a big one

1:00:21

, actually , and it was

1:00:23

interesting . I was , I was drinking San

1:00:26

Pedro at a ceremony here in Peru

1:00:28

and I had just

1:00:30

all this fear coming up and I was like I just

1:00:32

don't want to feel this . I just feel

1:00:34

absolutely terrified , really

1:00:37

, really intense fear in my body and you

1:00:39

know , my mind is just like running rampant with

1:00:41

all these what , if , what if this happens , what if this happens

1:00:43

, you know , and it

1:00:45

was like I wanted to get rid of it , you know , just

1:00:47

push it away . But then

1:00:49

at some point I realized , you know

1:00:52

, fear has a purpose that keeps us safe

1:00:54

. You know , because if there's danger , if

1:00:56

there's someone that's in an alleyway that's going to attack

1:00:58

us , if there's a car and we're going

1:01:00

to walk across the road , you know we need that

1:01:02

fear in our system to jolt us

1:01:05

, to be like like , pay attention

1:01:07

, you need to run away or you need to do something . So

1:01:09

it's almost like it helped me

1:01:11

realize like emotions just signal

1:01:13

to us that something's happening

1:01:16

or that something needs to happen . You know whether

1:01:18

it's anger and I need to enforce a boundary

1:01:20

, or you know fear I need to run

1:01:22

away . Or you know get myself to

1:01:24

safety . Or you know , whatever it is

1:01:26

, it's , it's like helped me

1:01:28

to see my emotions as being these

1:01:31

signposts and just you

1:01:33

know , rather than all these are good and these are bad and I

1:01:35

need to be happy all the time and joyful all the time

1:01:38

is like never going to happen . You

1:01:40

know and and can be also a form

1:01:42

of spiritual bypassing , of just being happy

1:01:44

all the time and ignoring all those feelings

1:01:47

. And so for me , like the real magic

1:01:49

has come in when I'm like , oh , like these

1:01:51

emotions , they're all just different flavors , you know

1:01:53

, they're all . They all have a purpose and they don't

1:01:55

always feel comfortable , but like

1:01:58

you know they , there's a purpose and

1:02:00

giving space for all of them to just

1:02:02

come through , yeah , I think that's

1:02:04

actually a very beautiful way to put it .

1:02:06

And you know , seeing your emotions as signposts

1:02:08

signposts that something is happening

1:02:10

. You know they signal to you

1:02:12

that you know someone made you sad or someone

1:02:14

. You're feeling scared right now and you need to maybe

1:02:16

pay attention more to your surroundings . And

1:02:19

you know it's just acknowledging

1:02:21

that you are human and there will

1:02:23

be bad moments , but allowing

1:02:25

it to pass and holding space for yourself

1:02:28

. I think that's basically

1:02:30

the root of being grounded in

1:02:32

general . I think it's important

1:02:35

to just , you know , acknowledge

1:02:37

that you're not perfect and

1:02:39

life sucks sometimes and it's going to throw

1:02:41

a lot of shit at you , but

1:02:43

you know we are super resilient

1:02:45

as human beings . And

1:02:48

also , going back to the concept

1:02:51

of you know emotion service in

1:02:53

one way , they could also not

1:02:55

serve us at other times . But I think that applies

1:02:57

to everything . You know , whether that's

1:02:59

your ego or your behaviors or

1:03:02

your reactions to things , it's

1:03:05

all on a spectrum , it's all on a dimension

1:03:07

. So there are some things that you can do

1:03:09

that might hurt you and

1:03:11

then there are some things that you could do that would

1:03:13

be good for you . And

1:03:15

it's having or

1:03:17

recognizing the balance

1:03:20

between both and never going to the extreme

1:03:22

of two things . It's not

1:03:24

to say that if you go through a breakup you can't

1:03:26

go out drinking with your girlfriends for one

1:03:28

night of having fun . But

1:03:31

it's when it becomes too extreme or

1:03:33

, you know , becomes a repetitive pattern where you're constantly

1:03:35

covering up pain with distraction

1:03:37

. That's when it becomes dysfunctional . You

1:03:40

know , I think to categorize dysfunctional behaviors

1:03:42

or self sabotaging behaviors is when

1:03:44

it becomes a constant

1:03:46

pattern and when it becomes like

1:03:48

to an extreme that it

1:03:50

becomes uncontrollable . That's when I

1:03:53

would say it becomes dysfunctional

1:03:55

, because you know you can . You can

1:03:57

fuck around here and there and you can do

1:03:59

bad things for you if they feel good in the moment

1:04:01

, from time to time . But it's being able to

1:04:03

ground yourself and come back to yourself and be

1:04:05

like okay , I did something bad

1:04:07

yesterday , I didn't feel good about it , let's move on

1:04:09

, let's deal with this in a healthy way . So

1:04:11

it's being able to make the distinction between

1:04:14

you know , when it's too much .

1:04:17

Yeah , I think that's a really good point . Like that

1:04:20

, you know it doesn't just you don't go

1:04:22

from zero , zero to 100 straight away . You

1:04:24

know you might , like you said , go out drinking one night

1:04:26

and then maybe two nights the next week and three nights

1:04:28

, and then all of a sudden you , you know you're drinking

1:04:30

every night at home on your own , and

1:04:33

so it's , I think , for

1:04:35

me , like it helps me to realize , you know , one

1:04:37

, we're all susceptible to this , no one's immune

1:04:40

, you know . And two , it's

1:04:42

not , like it's it can happen slowly

1:04:44

over time and build , and then all of a sudden it's

1:04:47

like , oh , I have this coping mechanism . I

1:04:49

need to probably address that , you know . So

1:04:51

it's , yeah , I think that's a really important

1:04:53

point of yeah , like when

1:04:55

these patterns , when these kind of addictive

1:04:57

things , become like a distraction you mentioned

1:05:00

it yeah , it can just just learning

1:05:02

to be aware of that and you

1:05:04

know , like I mean , we've all , we've all done it . So

1:05:07

also , yeah , just just having

1:05:09

, I guess , compassion for ourselves , you know , when we do do

1:05:11

those things and , like you said , going , okay

1:05:14

, yeah , I did that , let's , let's bring it back

1:05:16

and let's do something healthy today

1:05:18

, and and having that balance , and I think that

1:05:20

that's just part of being human , you know , and it's

1:05:23

sort of like you said before , of going

1:05:25

into that shadow work and going into that darkness

1:05:28

and but also bringing light . You

1:05:30

know , you don't always want to be in the darkness and always

1:05:32

want to be in those heavy emotions and then not

1:05:35

always distracting yourself . So it's it's

1:05:37

this kind of dance or this balance

1:05:39

of trying to , you know

1:05:41

, integrate it all and and feel all

1:05:44

the different things kind of in tandem

1:05:46

, which is a balancing act for sure

1:05:48

.

1:05:49

Yeah , I mean , yeah , I mean even just the way

1:05:51

you're saying it , like it sounds like it's a lot . But

1:05:53

you know , being human is is

1:05:55

so complex and it's , it's a lot

1:05:57

, you know , even just you know , waking up every

1:06:00

single day and having to do the dishes can be a lot

1:06:02

for some people . And yeah , on

1:06:04

top of that , having to deal with shadow work and

1:06:06

working on your inner child and all of that

1:06:08

, it I understand that

1:06:10

it can seem a lot of people

1:06:12

and I can understand . That's the reason why , you

1:06:14

know , we just put our hands up and we don't want to do anything

1:06:16

about it , because we just don't want to have to deal with it

1:06:18

. We just want to go through life . You know

1:06:20

, fucking around and doing the things that we

1:06:23

do but this is what I

1:06:25

talk about leads you into living a life on

1:06:27

autopilot . You never really feel like

1:06:29

you're in the driver's seat of your own life

1:06:31

because you're just constantly going

1:06:33

with the motions and you're just reacting

1:06:35

to whatever life throws at you . And

1:06:38

I think this is the first

1:06:40

and foremost reason why it's so important

1:06:43

to do the work on yourself , not

1:06:45

just because it will help you , you

1:06:48

know , see better at night and because you'll you'll drink

1:06:50

lesser , because you become less , you

1:06:52

know , sexual or hyper sexual , but

1:06:54

also because it gives you full and total control

1:06:57

of your life and who

1:06:59

you are and who you want to be . You know

1:07:01

and you can . You can literally construct

1:07:04

your life as if it was a Barbie dream

1:07:06

house , into anything that you

1:07:08

want . But that can only happen

1:07:10

if you are integrated

1:07:12

as a whole person . And this is what I

1:07:14

talk about a lot , and the purpose

1:07:17

of my psycho education , or the purpose of

1:07:19

my blog , is this concept

1:07:21

of wholeness . You know you don't

1:07:23

have to do , you know you don't have to become

1:07:25

more spiritual . You don't have to

1:07:27

become , you know , more calm or

1:07:29

or more grounded or cooler

1:07:32

or more chill . It's not about that at

1:07:34

all . It's just about integrating the good and

1:07:36

bad parts of yourself , becoming more whole

1:07:38

, so that you can , you

1:07:40

know , live a life of authenticity and

1:07:42

you can just live

1:07:45

your life according to your true human design

1:07:47

and follow the path that makes you feel most

1:07:49

alive and most in harmony with yourself

1:07:52

and with other people , because there's

1:07:54

nothing better than giving

1:07:57

love and receiving love , and I believe that's why

1:07:59

we were put on this side . You can only

1:08:01

do that if you fully , truly

1:08:03

, love yourself for the

1:08:06

shadows , the shadow dark parts of yourself

1:08:08

and the good light parts of yourself .

1:08:11

Absolutely . I think , yeah , that's a really

1:08:13

cool point as well , and the

1:08:15

more that you know we can love ourselves

1:08:17

, you know and practice that daily , the more we can then

1:08:20

apply that to everyone in our lives . You know

1:08:22

and approach other people with kindness and compassion , and

1:08:25

I think too , like you make a really good point

1:08:27

about you know being whole and accepting

1:08:30

all the parts , and I think a

1:08:32

lot of people don't want to deal with trauma . I get that like

1:08:36

I totally understand and I

1:08:38

know it is work and it's not

1:08:40

something that's going to be super easy . Maybe

1:08:42

for some people it is , but it's

1:08:45

like I think I just realized

1:08:47

one day you know you either deal with it head on

1:08:49

, deal with this stuff head on , and

1:08:51

you know , deal with this stuff and face

1:08:54

it . You know , work with it , learn how

1:08:56

to accept all these parts and

1:08:58

then , like you said , create the life you want , or else

1:09:00

, if you don't deal with it , like it's gonna

1:09:02

affect every decision you make in every part

1:09:05

of your life anyway . So it's like you

1:09:07

may as well just deal with it . That's my

1:09:09

opinion anyway .

1:09:10

Yeah , I think that's

1:09:12

like the best summary

1:09:14

that you could say . It's like you know , just rip the

1:09:16

band-aid off and just deal with it , because if you

1:09:18

don't , you know it's

1:09:20

going to cause a lot of turmoil for

1:09:22

you and a lot of issues for you . So you might as well just

1:09:24

get it over with Exactly

1:09:26

.

1:09:27

Exactly Awesome

1:09:29

. Well , this has been an amazing chat . Yeah

1:09:32

, I really appreciate it . So , for people who

1:09:34

want to learn more or connect with you

1:09:36

and read about your work and

1:09:38

all of that , where can they find out more ?

1:09:41

My website for my blog is

1:09:43

called findingyourselfagaincom

1:09:45

and I am

1:09:47

working on a book , so I

1:09:49

will plug the promo

1:09:51

for that on my Instagram . A la injah

1:09:54

, so a y , l , a , I n , j and

1:09:57

yeah , that's basically . That's

1:09:59

it .

1:10:00

Awesome , awesome . And what is the ? What's

1:10:02

the ?

1:10:02

book about . So basically the same

1:10:05

concepts that we covered today and also what my

1:10:07

blog talks about . I just hope to go more

1:10:09

in detail and more in depth regarding

1:10:12

, you know , childhood trauma

1:10:14

and the complexities of it , and

1:10:16

I also hope to have a personal spin on it

1:10:19

. So I'm actually conducting my own case

1:10:21

study research . So I'm interviewing

1:10:23

individuals anonymously

1:10:25

regarding their stories and

1:10:28

things that they've gone through and seeing

1:10:30

their worldview and how they

1:10:32

define their own trauma , because

1:10:35

I feel like it will . It will at least allow

1:10:37

people to relate to

1:10:39

those stories and maybe

1:10:41

trigger them into this or catapult

1:10:44

them into their own healing .

1:10:46

That's cool . I like that . I think , yeah

1:10:48

, the power of just people's stories and

1:10:50

storytelling is , yeah , really really cool

1:10:53

and effective , so that sounds awesome , definitely

1:10:55

. Yeah , yeah , cool , well

1:10:57

, thank you so much Thank you for having

1:10:59

me .

1:10:59

It was great to talk to you .

1:11:02

And that's a wrap . Thank you so much for listening

1:11:04

to Sex , money and Rage . If you haven't

1:11:07

already , please hit the subscribe or follow button

1:11:09

, make sure notifications are ticked

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and I will see you next time .