0:00

So we were gone for more than six

0:02

weeks and the time difference just so

0:05

you know is between 12 and

0:09

13 hours the next day and so the first few days were like gosh I feel great

0:15

we're just so tired we didn't sleep so I literally woke up three to four minutes

0:20

ago and I'm like oh normally it's like an early riser and all this I never set

0:26

an alarm and all of a sudden I was I was like, oh my God, I gotta be on right now.

0:32

Well, welcome. I'm gonna have a sip of coffee.

0:37

So you are retired as well, and you're doing this.

0:42

Well, I'm sort of retired, but not really. So I went back to work for a small

0:46

consulting firm, and they found out that we had a podcast, and they really loved the podcast.

0:53

And so in August, they're like, why are you working full-time?

0:57

I'm like, because mama needs insurance. And so they offered me 30 hours a week with full benefits.

1:04

And so I get to do that job, which it's totally the dream job.

1:09

And then I get to do this. And I love doing this.

1:12

Yeah. No, no, that's, I can tell you do. So how did you all decide to do this?

1:18

She took me up on a joke. I was like, we should record a podcast.

1:21

This would be funny for other people to hear. And she was like, let's do it. And then the next thing I knew.

1:26

Yeah. You don't mess around. You don't joke with.

1:28

I know. And I had like mentioned my husband records like music and stuff.

1:32

So he had all the equipment. Yeah. And then the next thing I knew, here we were. Yeah.

1:37

You both seem super, super natural though about it. It seems really great.

1:43

It's great. I don't. I'm just living in the supernatural.

1:48

It's very, it's really cool. I, I'm, I'm very happy for you.

1:54

Because it does seem like it's a lot of fun. It is. And, you know, we get as much out of it as our guests and our listeners do. You have to.

2:02

Yeah. So, like, if you see Skittles taking notes, it's because it's probably

2:06

a book or something we're going to buy.

2:09

Yeah, that's perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Because we leave the 10th to go back to

2:15

France for a longer period of time. So there's, this will get into the whole olives, olive growing,

2:20

you know, the fact, I'm an oléoculteur, which means I am an olive producer.

2:26

Officially, I have a card. You are like living what I, when I try to fall asleep at night,

2:31

I will think of like really beautiful things.

2:34

And I'm like, Oh, I have an olive farm. Like you're living my dreams.

2:38

And the best thing is it's not actually an olive farm.

2:41

It's enough of an olive grove that we made eight liters of olive oil last year.

2:46

Which is like our goal is olive oil subsistence and maybe being able to share

2:52

it with family which we did last year but if you have an olive farm then it becomes work again yeah,

2:59

gotta watch that you gotta watch okay all right fine line i'm gonna tweak my

3:04

dream and we'll it's not a whole farm because then you're like i was trying

3:08

to pick olives and well we can talk about that but it is pretty funny at one

3:12

point here but it is pretty funny you have to have just the right amount so that,

3:16

because it does become an obsession if you, well, I guess with just about anything or a passion.

3:22

Some people call it obsession. I call it passion.

3:25

It's the positive spin on passion, on obsession, but you wake up,

3:31

there's a period of time when the olives start to ripen.

3:33

I sound like one of like either Ernest or Julie O'Gallo, we will pick no olives until it's time.

3:40

But there's a point at which they do start to mature.

3:46

And that's like, you don't want them to go too far.

3:49

You don't want a windstorm to come and like take too many olives off the tree

3:54

because once they're off the tree, you have to take them to the press within

3:58

basically three to four days.

4:01

And so there's like, you start picking, you know, Chris at some point, he would be like,

4:08

Don't look at the trees today, Cecile, because we've got something to do.

4:13

So, you know, I'll go in and have my coffee and I start walking around the trees.

4:16

We have 150-year-old trees.

4:19

Oh, maybe like two of them are just these beautiful, massive trees.

4:24

And so I'm like, you walk around and you're like, there's enough olives to start picking.

4:29

And you start taking some or some have fallen on the ground.

4:32

So you want to start gathering. and pretty soon it's like four hours later and

4:36

you've got this meditative walk around your tree.

4:39

You've picked enough olives to take over that's enough for a liter of olive

4:43

oil to the community press. Wow. This is very, very different. I mean, Gretchen, you got to be laughing

4:50

because I mean, you know what my job was like. It was hell.

4:53

It was nonstop. It was like, all right, what city are you going to be talking in this week?

4:59

You know, and here I am walking around my trees and my PJs, having some coffee

5:05

and like, I think we have enough now.

5:08

We'll pick some tomorrow. That sounds... Take them to the press and we'll come

5:11

back with all of... I will send you to some photos just afterwards to give you

5:16

a sense of like the shit eating grin on my face.

5:20

The first time we picked up four liters of olive oil is like,

5:24

I loved what I did at work. Don't get me wrong.

5:27

I love the the people I worked with, but the sense of satisfaction,

5:31

I guess, from like four liters of olive oil is a hundred times more than that.

5:35

Oh yeah. Yeah. I still actually get people like, don't you miss it?

5:42

Don't you want to get in? You know, don't you want to.

5:46

Keep in touch with everything. I'm like, it's HR stuff.

5:53

Like I get, yes, I was passionate about everything. I never lied.

5:57

I cared about what I did, but I'm like, when is enough?

6:01

Like, yeah, I actually got into, I actually applied for a job.

6:07

I started going through a process and I stopped short of talking to their HR

6:12

where they're like, ah, the HR person, you've got to talk to the HR person.

6:14

I was like, what am I doing? and at one point yeah it's

6:17

like sweetheart you've done enough and people

6:21

are like you're too young to have retired I'm like

6:24

too old to be working like why and

6:27

there is this sort of thick sense that we have to keep going which is why I

6:32

asked you Gretchen you love what you're doing you have a particular I'm like

6:36

and the other thing is when we live in France like this is not going to be a

6:41

a thing on American lack of health care and everything.

6:45

But we just talked to some like a tax person in France and they're like,

6:50

oh, no, you're always going to pay taxes in the U.S.

6:53

Because you have American citizenship. But I also have French citizenship.

6:58

And so for health care next year.

7:01

So, you know, I'm still on the reduced health care plan from a very good retirement

7:07

package and, you know, the early retirement package where I get healthcare for

7:11

two years at a reduced rate. But they're like, so, which again, it's great, but it's still $1,200 a month.

7:19

And next December, it'll become 2024 or 2040.

7:26

And in France, our healthcare is going to be $25 a person.

7:31

Oh my goodness. France rates higher than the US in healthcare.

7:35

Care. That's not to say it's always easy, but I mean.

7:40

Yeah. So, so I do have that extra ability to not have to need healthcare,

7:47

which makes a huge difference.

7:50

But even if I just became a resident of France, you don't have to be a,

7:54

you don't have to be a citizen. If you're a resident of France, you can get that healthcare.

7:58

Wow. So anyhow, it was one of those things where I'm like, maybe somebody should

8:02

hear about this sort of grind.

8:04

It's like, because I do think that in some cases, it's never,

8:09

we believe it's never enough.

8:12

So if you're doing something that you love, absolutely.

8:16

But yeah, and I work, so we were supposed to go hang out at a market or do something.

8:22

And four and a half hours later, I'm like, no, I got to pick the olives, got to pick the olives.

8:27

It's a little different, right and it's seasonal and you

8:31

know it's because I want to do that and I

8:34

think that we are so conditioned to think that if we're not doing what we did

8:40

before then we've fallen off the face of the earth I can't tell you how many

8:44

people were even like but your brain is going to go soft and I'm like yeah I

8:48

read the stories and everything but I don't know I read nine books who knew that

8:53

I loved science fiction space operas.

8:56

I never was into that genre.

9:01

And all of a sudden, like... I didn't know that existed.

9:05

Anyway, so yeah, that's kind of why I was like, maybe it would be worth talking about this.

9:13

Because I think that it applies even to people when we work.

9:19

Music.

9:35

Three two two one one welcome back to another episode of shit that goes on our

9:42

heads today we have an amazing guest cecile welcome thank you thank you thank

9:47

you for doing this thank you for having me. I'm super, super happy to be here.

9:52

I love this. I already have. Listening to you talk already, hearing what you've said, it doesn't even matter,

10:00

right? Because you seem so happy.

10:04

So my first question is, and I don't know if you've ever thought about it,

10:08

but you said you were passionate about your career. You were really happy to

10:12

be doing what you were doing. You were in it. You're traveling. What I remember of knowing you was seeing

10:17

you up on a stage, talking, very well-spoken. I was like, wow.

10:22

Because there's good speakers and bad speakers. I was like a fan,

10:24

but I would see you everywhere. Either if it was on the company page or if I was there in person watching you talk.

10:31

And having that corporate happiness to the happiness you have now, how did that...

10:38

How did you adjust? Did it ever become like, oh shit, I'm actually really happy

10:44

and not having this job that I was passionate about?

10:47

And I absolutely was passionate about what I did.

10:51

I felt like I had the best job in the world.

10:55

I was fulfilled.

10:58

I had wonderful people that I worked with and all of that.

11:02

But interestingly enough, I did know that at some point I was going to,

11:09

I mean, I was running on empty anyhow.

11:12

And when COVID hit, I know everyone has sort of their COVID moment,

11:17

but when COVID hit, I realized that I had not spent more than, I don't know.

11:24

I was like, I don't think I have spent a whole month sleeping in the same bed

11:29

with my spouse house in 15 years, like on a straight, on a straight,

11:36

for a whole month that I hadn't traveled.

11:39

And I realized that was a little nuts.

11:43

And because I actually really liked him, I actually, you know, I didn't just love it.

11:47

I actually liked hanging out there. I'm like, wow, this is awesome.

11:51

So, so it's interesting because that was a turning point in some ways for me

11:56

in realizing something Something probably has to change.

11:59

And then, you know, post-COVID, our company changed in a lot of ways and became another company.

12:11

I was still out there speaking. All of those things were positive,

12:15

but I kept in the back of my head that there was something kind of unsustainable about that.

12:20

And so there is a way of being fulfilled and happy in the work that you do.

12:25

But in your work life, there's always whether you feel perfectly,

12:32

whether you have a dream job, whether you feel perfectly content with what you're

12:37

doing, whether you trust everyone around you or not, there are outside forces

12:42

that can come and turn things upside down.

12:45

And when you don't have that level and I'm by no means a control freak but when

12:52

you don't have a level of being able to say well those outside forces aren't going to mess with.

13:01

Like with my happiness not with what I'm doing necessarily but with the happiness

13:05

part of it yeah then I think it's a different level of happiness I just saw

13:10

a couple friends of mine who are both working, who I had worked with before.

13:14

One is still working in the same place. Another is not. And they're just like,

13:17

you look younger. And I'm like, younger?

13:20

It's like two years since it's like, no, you actually look younger.

13:23

You know, and I'm like, let's see how that's possible.

13:26

And it's like, it's gotta be that you're just so happy.

13:30

And I think, you know, for the, I'd say that the transition was probably six

13:36

months of kind of, maybe even a little less.

13:39

I think I got lucky because I had somebody that I was living with,

13:43

this spouse of mine, who had decided to retire six months before and helped my father transition,

13:52

which was probably one of the most earth shattering experiences of my life,

13:57

which was losing my mom really suddenly when I was still working.

14:02

And so, and that was another sort of precipitating factor.

14:06

So he helped my, my dad kind of get back on his feet, move to where he wanted

14:12

to be and everything after losing somebody he had been with for 62 years.

14:16

So it was, you know, so there's a lot of joy and also a lot of like devastation,

14:22

but that when my mom died and again, it was sudden because we didn't know that

14:28

she had lung cancer and had five weeks to live when she was hospital.

14:32

It was during Omicron. I couldn't go and see her in the hospital. She's hard of hearing.

14:38

I was trying to advocate for her talking to nurses, calling them in tears every

14:43

night, say, what is going on with my mom? What can, you know,

14:47

all of this sort of thing. So I had this event and I decided that when I retired, that would be the time

14:55

because it was six months after my mom dying that, or actually even nine months

15:00

after that I actually retired, I decided that would be when I would truly start to heal.

15:06

Because no matter what we say, we don't do grieving right in our modern society

15:13

and definitely not in the Western world. We don't do grieving right.

15:17

So nine months where, you know, and I did have a moment, I'm going to be honest,

15:23

you know, I'm not going to name names, but I had a moment where it's like,

15:26

I had someone who I worked for say, take all the time you want,

15:31

but are you going to meet with X next Friday?

15:34

And I was like, that's not all the time I want.

15:37

My mom and I were super close. She was my hero.

15:43

She and I were very much alike. And I was completely knocked off kilter.

15:49

So the last nine months of my job, I was like,

15:53

Nobody knows what's going on inside of me and nobody could.

15:57

And people were amazingly wonderful and supportive. But I checked out,

16:02

which I think many of us do, but we have to keep going anyhow.

16:08

So, and I also, my brother is a childhood diabetic who I also adore. He's my older brother.

16:15

You know, I remember sledding down a hill when I was eight years old to impress

16:19

him, crashing into a tree and he felt really bad, you know, I would do anything.

16:25

If he said, my brother, Chris said, still do this. I would do it no matter what.

16:30

Like I was his agent. I would knock on doors. I'm like, do you need your lawn

16:33

shoveled? You know, and I was the person who'd do the talking.

16:36

He'd do the grunt work. He'd give me 25 cents and then teach me how to play pinball later on.

16:40

I mean, we were super tight and he had been on and off. No, he'd gotten progressive. It's harder.

16:46

He was a diabetic from the time he was seven and he was going to be 60.

16:53

He actually turned 60 last year. And so I was like, well, if I didn't, you know, and if I didn't spend enough

17:00

time with my mom at the end, and honestly, I did spend a lot of time with her.

17:03

We moved into the same building to make sure, you know, my, yeah,

17:07

Emma really kind of, so we were close by, but all of this was like,

17:11

I'm going to, I'm going to heal. And then I'm going to spend more time with my family, with people that I love

17:18

that I haven't been able to because my job has been so crazy.

17:20

I spent so much. I'm actually going to spend time with my husband.

17:23

I'm going to do these things. And that was kind of my plan. And I did.

17:27

And then December of this year, or of last year, we lost my brother suddenly again.

17:33

So I was like, thank God I had that time.

17:38

That's like my only consolation because it's been four months and I miss him

17:42

every day. And I miss my mom. It's like the one-two punch.

17:46

So in a way, I had an odd transition because I had tremendous loss.

17:52

I was so grateful I got to spend time with my brother.

17:55

And I had my partner who was like, when is enough?

18:02

So you had a lot of people who thought you were going to burn out because you worked so hard.

18:06

Because you're so... Here's another big reveal.

18:11

I have ADHD, undiagnosed. full-on

18:14

ADHD, which I paneled into being a workaholic who never did enough.

18:19

So who could never do enough.

18:23

So like through all of that, I feel like my transition, because it's a totally

18:27

fair question. I think we're getting back to your actual question.

18:30

No, I love it. But in a way that to me, my transition was maybe easier because it's not like I went from.

18:39

Being full on at work. My mind had been in a different place about nine months anyway.

18:46

And I was looking for the space to actually be able to, and I didn't even know

18:52

what like what grieving is. Everyone's like, well, you need time to grieve. I'm like, I don't know what

18:56

it is. All I know is that it keeps welling up and you don't really know how,

19:00

and we're certainly not taught how to do that.

19:03

And so for me, that transition had like mentally, I was in a different place anyway.

19:10

And then when I left work, people are like, what's next?

19:14

I'm like, what's next is I'm going to think for a while and maybe grow some olives.

19:20

And I sort of said that tongue in cheek and it turned out that's exactly what I was going to do.

19:26

I'm going to start reading like my mom did because my mom would read like a

19:29

book a day or whatever. ever. I'm going to do something totally different.

19:35

But for some reason, that's not considered enough in a way. Yeah.

19:39

In this society, it's not. So like when I semi-retired, they're like, what are you going to do?

19:47

And I'm like, I don't know. But for me, I was fortunate enough that I'm

19:52

a unicorn in my field and I was

19:56

able to land a dream job and do my podcast and I you know we did do some fun

20:01

things like we spent three weeks in Europe we've done some traveling but I also

20:06

healed a lot like I similar to you like when the depression like started to kick in,

20:15

I was pretty much checking out when I got that email that said,

20:19

hey, you qualified for VP. I was like, deuces, bitch. I'm out.

20:24

That's so it. I know. People are like, well, you're not. I even was,

20:28

somebody was like, you're not actually going to do that, though. I mean, you're young.

20:33

I'm like, if I qualify, I've done some years.

20:36

And by the way, I've been working since, like I told you, I was peddling my

20:40

brother's services when I was eight years old.

20:43

Right. I've never not worked. And I think there's this idea that there isn't you're never enough and you're

20:52

not going to be enough if you're doing if you're not doing what it was that

20:56

you were doing and that I think there

20:59

are actually a couple of things and I know here's the speech giver in me three

21:03

points I'd like to make here but I mean I want you to leave this with three

21:08

important points honestly Do you have a PowerPoint?

21:12

No PowerPoint, I'm coming. Did you put a deck together? I'm like, hell no, I'm not going to put a deck

21:18

together. I've been doing that way too long. Not a chance.

21:22

But there is this idea of like being productive.

21:26

And so if you can't redefine what productivity is, and I don't,

21:30

and everyone's like, oh, you're just going to scale it back and you'll do less.

21:34

I'm like, no, it's different. It has to be different. it because otherwise you're just doing,

21:40

you know, kind of the same thing.

21:42

And it's like depression do come back.

21:45

They can, they crawl back in because you're not actually radically changing your patterns enough.

21:51

We are conditioned individuals, but I think there is this idea that,

21:55

you know, we've, if we're not productive, then we're useless and we're not serving society.

22:00

And, you know, we kind of have to rethink like, who am I being productive for?

22:06

To what end am I being productive? And then redefining what productivity is.

22:11

To me, being productive, it was so funny.

22:13

I was like, I told my kids, I was like, I just read like nine books,

22:18

maybe 12 books. And they're like, seriously?

22:21

Mom, how long has it been since you actually had to sit down?

22:23

Because I'm an obsessive reader. If I start a book, I have to finish it.

22:26

So like reading is a full-time engagement for me. I can't half-ass a book because

22:32

I can't sleep. I'm obsessed. And I'm going to be like, oh my God, I'm dreaming about the people for like all the characters.

22:38

I'm like, I can't not do this. And so they were like, that is the coolest thing

22:43

ever, mom, that you just like nine books.

22:46

I know I feel kind of lazy. And they're like, why?

22:50

Your brain was engaged. You were doing something. It was just not working the

22:55

way that you did, you know? And the other thing is, we all know work doesn't end when you leave work.

23:01

If you're somebody who even cares a little bit about others,

23:06

which we all are or we wouldn't be.

23:11

There's the after calls and then the after calls. And then at nine o'clock,

23:14

somebody who's in tears or somebody who's like, you know, you got to talk them

23:18

off the ledge and everything. And so that, it's like, it's so strange.

23:23

And yet I can guarantee to you or anybody listening, I have not one moment been bored.

23:31

I don't believe in being bored because what you can do is you can actually think those things through.

23:36

You can go down rabbit holes and not cut yourself off because you can,

23:40

you can read, you can be like, I'm going to follow this. Okay.

23:44

What is Taylor Swift actually? And how did she get started?

23:48

What is all of this? You know, and go all the way down, you know,

23:52

until it's like two or two or three hours later, it is engaged.

23:57

There's nothing wrong with that. It's like, it's what we all want to do.

24:01

You know who we are is like, oh yeah, I got to get back to work,

24:03

you know? And I'm just, no, it's not all of time. It's raining.

24:06

I can't do that. So it's like there's these different things that have built into it.

24:11

So I do think productivity is skewed. Of course you want to be productive when you're working.

24:18

But to me, I've redefined productivity to be okay with myself because I find

24:24

that I still have to tell people that I'm okay.

24:27

You're like, hey, you look younger. You look happy. and I'm like I am really

24:32

but I'm still doing something I do college now and I do and I read books and

24:37

actually do any of you like the New York Times puzzles?

24:41

I do. Oh my gosh. I have to use ChatGP TV to solve them.

24:49

I'm a spelling bee aficionado and so after the Barbie movie came out like Chris

24:56

and I were like hey our job is puzzle like my job,

24:59

like if I've done all of my all the puzzles

25:02

like wordle queen bee connections in a day we will stay up till two in the morning

25:09

if we haven't done that yet because our job is puzzle so we tell people like

25:12

my job isn't beach like ken my job is puzzle puzzle that's what I do and when

25:17

I'm in France my job is olive olive.

25:22

But I love this because you know you're retiring was your form of self-love

25:28

and self-care right you found you're happy and.

25:33

And even though you had all that grief, you found a way to channel that and to really deal with it.

25:39

Because I think that a lot of us don't deal with it correctly, right?

25:43

We don't take the time to absorb all the feelings.

25:47

Yeah. We don't take time to actually to grieve at all. Right.

25:52

Because there's an incredible book that my sister-in-law, who didn't know,

25:58

she was grieving for my mom and then lost her mom.

26:01

And then my brother like died within a month of the year anniversary of her

26:07

mom dying you know and it's just this she's had and she sent me an article and

26:11

and one of the things that was so,

26:14

incredibly helpful was it's that there's grieving

26:17

and there's grief and grieving is

26:21

the process whereby you rewire

26:25

your brain and because you

26:28

have to learn to live without someone

26:31

who's been in your life and who

26:35

your whole world view and world order makes sense with them in it and when they're

26:42

gone and our brains are incredible but it takes a long time to rewire because

26:48

like I was just came back from this incredible six week.

26:54

Like, I mean, a trip of a lifetime and where we traveled literally with a backpack

27:01

that you could carry on your back or roll one backpack for six weeks.

27:05

I need your packing tips because it's intense.

27:09

I will say it involved buying a suitcase in the last, within the last week,

27:12

just to like throw all the things I'm like, all right, I've been really good.

27:16

But, but so grief is those, It's that episodic moment where you're...

27:21

It's those episodes where you're completely knocked over, like a wave has just come and upended you.

27:28

And you're sobbing for no reason. My mom has this smell from childhood,

27:34

and I kept one of her nightgowns.

27:37

And I opened the drawer, and I actually... I know it's going to sound weird,

27:42

but I smelled my mom's nightgown, and I just started sobbing. That's grief.

27:46

But grieving is being like, that's okay. I'm going to put it back.

27:50

I'm not throwing it away because I'm going to not deal with it.

27:53

Yeah. I'm just not going to take it out again for a little while.

27:56

And I'm going to, you know, think about what, think about the moment with her

28:00

in this nightgown, when we picked it out and bought it together and all these other sorts of things.

28:04

And that's a process of my brain learning that, but coming back from this trip

28:08

and even on the trip, I know I would have called her a bunch of times to tell her.

28:13

And my brother is an incredible chef. And I And I was like, I wanted to,

28:17

like, I got you the best pepper in the world, Chris, from Cambodia.

28:21

And because no one would have appreciated it more than him.

28:25

And so that's like, that doesn't stop. And those feelings of grief don't ever stop.

28:32

But you learn to be like, I can't, I can imagine what you would have made with this.

28:39

And you try to find the happiness. But if you don't have time to go from those

28:43

moments of just overwhelming sadness to feeling.

28:48

This is the joy that you brought me and what you taught me so that I can like,

28:54

so that I'm going on this crazy wild goose chase for the best pepper in the world.

28:59

It's because I know you would have appreciated it. If you can't get there,

29:02

then you never get to a place of grieving where your mind and your brain is rewired.

29:09

And we have to, like, just have to.

29:13

So time is like such a gift. So So reading nine books, even if it was escapism, is a gift.

29:21

And we don't see it as that. We see it as like being idle.

29:25

You know, how many people go on vacation and they either stay completely wired

29:29

when they're on vacation? They're like, oh, I feel like I need a vacation after my vacation because it took so long.

29:35

You know, it took me so long to unwind. You know, it's actually, it's not right.

29:40

And I, you know, so I think that's part of it for sure.

29:44

So like productivity fuck

29:48

it i'm like you know what yeah i'm productive i'm

29:51

productively learning how to

29:55

live my life without two of the most important people in my life my whole life

30:00

you know and like i i found something that i think makes me very productive

30:05

i i made olive oil my brother did get to try my olive oil he was really fired

30:10

up he's like don't i get more than everybody else.

30:12

I'm like, you have five milliliters more than, or centiliters more than everybody else can.

30:17

You're getting 25 centiliters. Everybody else is only getting 20.

30:21

And he was like, okay, but I'm going to need some more, you know.

30:24

He did get to try my oil, but he was supposed to come visit this September.

30:29

And actually see our house. He had seen it, but not when we were living there

30:33

because we were just buying it right after my, we were going to take a trip to France.

30:37

That's another reason our France and olives are so important is because if my

30:42

parents were going to, it was going to be their 60th wedding anniversary and

30:45

Chris and I had rented a big house. So I have a brother, Chris,

30:48

and my partner's also Chris. So sorry if that's confusing, but I don't live with my brother and I don't like

30:53

plan everything, but we had done this.

30:55

And then my mom died right before. She already had a ticket.

30:59

Actually, to come to France. All the grandchildren, everybody was going to be

31:02

there. And she died. We all went anyway.

31:06

And so it was sort of like a way of grieving her.

31:09

And that was when we found the house and bought the house that we were going

31:12

to live in, which is much smaller than this one that held our whole family,

31:15

but down the hill from there. And then we got it. So he got to see it, but he didn't. And my mom knew.

31:21

She saw it in photos, but she never actually got to see where we were going to be.

31:25

But she knew that we were going to go there. So that's sort of a comfort.

31:27

And my mom's ashes are buried under a tree that one of the 200 year old olive trees there.

31:33

And we call it grandmother olive. And my first, our first batch of olive oil

31:37

is called cuvee mimi for my mom.

31:40

And so in a way she's, she lives on. And I talked to the tree when I leave,

31:44

I go and I say, you know, and we prune the tree.

31:47

I'm like, sorry, mom, we got to kind of cut your nails and your fingers.

31:50

I hope we didn't go too far. We talked to her, Which I think is pretty normal, by the way. Yeah.

31:57

So I think that, you know, I found a way to redefine it, but I still,

32:01

I actually, you know, going through another interview process and stuff and

32:05

you're like, oh, I should do this. I should do this because that's what makes me worthy.

32:09

In the world, in other people's eyes, I need to be working and making money

32:16

and doing all of this other stuff. And one of the things that luckily my partner, Chris, and I,

32:21

he's like, you know, let's just, he started like becoming a budgeting person.

32:26

He's just like, let me show you. Let me show you. And that's how much money

32:29

we're actually spending. And like, see, it's going to be enough.

32:32

But it took months for him to convince me it was going to be enough, that we would be okay.

32:38

Because like our life in France is much less expensive. Food is less expensive.

32:42

Like New York is super expensive. We'll be selling one of the apartments and our daughter will be up here and

32:47

we'll still have a place to be, but it's not going to be the same.

32:49

We're going to be transitioning fully over there. But it takes a while, you know?

32:54

Like yeah and then you know I was like what is my

32:57

purpose and it's like just because my purpose was to inspire other

33:00

people and everything I'm just going to inspire myself or just

33:03

meet people and do things differently yeah you know this is so interesting to

33:08

me because even though you've talked about you know different aspects of your

33:12

life that you are basically it's all kind of the same like you were having to

33:16

rewire you know what you defined your self-worth to be what your life meant without a job,

33:22

without family, without, you know, these actual losses and you're,

33:27

and like looking at you, you're happy. Like I think the happiness radiates from inside out.

33:31

So it's just so beautiful and so interesting. So, I mean, thank you for sharing the story.

33:36

I'm taking notes, like I got to ask myself this because kind of,

33:40

I remember G-Rex when you had that

33:43

email mail and you called me

33:46

and I think you knew right like

33:50

you knew in your mind that it was the right move but you

33:52

were almost saying it like you were asking for

33:56

permission like I'm gonna do this but you're waiting to hear like oh you shouldn't

34:01

do that or whatever you know and so I think so to Cecile's point we how we define

34:08

our worth and what we think is okay to do is a little bit skewed.

34:14

And I just, I don't know, the both of you, I mean, you guys are very inspiring

34:18

and I'm taking notes completely selfishly to ask myself in the shower later,

34:22

like, how do I define my worth? What is my success? But, you know, there was a lot that went into that, too, right?

34:29

Because when I got that email, at the time, you know, my wife was suffering

34:35

through shingles, right? So, and I was about, you know, turning 60 the following summer.

34:42

I was like, fuck, you know what? Who's going to hire me? Because I still need insurance, right?

34:47

I could retire, but, like, how am I going to fucking survive?

34:51

So, I mean, part of all of that played into the breakdown that I had in December.

34:57

There was a lot of other shit that went on. But I will tell you that once I made that decision, right, once it was all final

35:05

and I had gotten the paperwork, by that time, I was like, fuck it.

35:10

I don't fucking care anymore because everything had gotten so stressful, right? Right.

35:18

Personally stressful. We didn't decorate for Christmas. We didn't do anything.

35:22

I was so depressed and nobody could figure out what was going on because on

35:28

the outside, I look perfectly fine. We all do. We're so good at that.

35:33

It was so good at that. Christmas day rolled around and I was like, fuck, I am done, done.

35:40

But I'm going to say, you know, we were on

35:42

a webinar yesterday today and I can't stress this enough like

35:46

if you are in a spot where you just don't feel like

35:48

you can talk to anybody pick up the phone and

35:51

call 988 because they honestly saved my

35:54

life and I am so thankful to be alive today because like

35:57

you Cecile I am in such a better place this side

36:00

on this side of a depression you know I'm

36:03

living my fucking best life I get to be on

36:06

a podcast with my best friend yeah we

36:09

get to go out there and make a difference every day i'm living my dream

36:13

job working my dream job and i'm still spending

36:16

amazing time with my wife right like

36:19

we drove two hours to go see wanda sykes last night and then got up which is

36:23

so awesome yeah yeah but you know i can see it in your face i can see i see

36:31

a difference cecile i see a A different one than the work. Even though I just

36:36

woke up and I look like crap. Yes. Like you don't need all the lights shining on you on the stage.

36:42

You are. I got nothing on my face. Yeah. I feel like your presence here today

36:46

is stronger than it was ever on a stage. Oh, that's such a wonderful.

36:50

You're not necessarily aware of that, you know. But the only other thing,

36:54

though, that I think is important is we think our relevance in this world is

37:00

tied to our productivity again.

37:02

But your relevance and like are you going to stay relevant are you going to

37:06

stay current it's like current on what like I know more about olives and the

37:10

diseases that come and hurt all like it's a different thing right right like you.

37:16

I can't tell you again how many times people are like, well,

37:20

don't you want to stay on top of all of it?

37:22

I'm like, no, I don't have to know.

37:26

I still love people, by the way. You know, I reached out to Gretchen.

37:30

I was like, you know, this may be off topic, but I, and I thought,

37:35

well, you know, here I am. I would have been like two years ago.

37:40

You know what? I can't, I have no time to talk to anybody, let them come and

37:44

talk to me and ask me if I need, you know, if I can do something.

37:47

And I was like, you know what I think is, it might be worth talking about this

37:50

because our purpose, our relevance, our, you know, our productivity in life, all of those things.

37:58

See, I got my three points in, by the way, those are my three,

38:00

but those things are so, you can teach an old dog new tricks,

38:06

right. But, or whatever, I don't know. But that things strike me all the time because people are like,

38:10

don't you want to stay relevant? I'm like, I don't know. Again, for who?

38:14

I'm relevant to my kids. They're happy that I'm happier. The first time my daughter

38:20

came to visit us in France, she was like, you guys are just so in your happy place here.

38:27

You kind of drift around. You're like, okay, today's a big day.

38:30

It's time to go to the market because this is when we're going to get all our vegetables.

38:34

And this is a a good day to go get bread and stuff. And it is enough.

38:40

It is enough. And it took me a while to realize that.

38:44

But I still hear so many people who are like, I don't know, I feel like I'm

38:48

not really being productive. And then redefine productivity.

38:52

Redefine it instead of trying to fit yourself into another mold because it's

38:57

never going to be enough then. It's never going to be enough because what we do in our day-to-day work lives is a little bit nuts.

39:06

Yeah. And so if you try to make another chapter in your life.

39:12

If that's your bar, you're never going to hit it. So you can either be disappointed in yourself.

39:17

And honestly, Gretchen, that probably has something to do also with some of the depression.

39:23

You know, I know I was grieving and that kind of couched some of it.

39:27

But I'm sure I was also sort of depressed, like, I don't know what's going on at all.

39:31

And all of these other things that were intermingled, that if you can't change

39:36

the bar, change where it is, it might be higher. career because like I'm learning

39:42

about things I didn't know anything about. I knew what I was doing in my previous job. I was good at it.

39:49

And I, you know, was running at this sort of high revving my engine constantly level.

39:55

And all of a sudden I'm like, it's different.

39:57

But if you can't redefine what productivity is for you, if you can't find relevance,

40:02

then it is going to be harder. Harder and so you just have to think about where

40:08

you want to redefine and what those things are and

40:11

I think one of the most important questions is like right am I

40:14

doing this and it's actually okay for

40:17

it to be a smaller group of people like it's

40:20

okay for it to be for me because when I read a book again I'm gone to the world

40:25

and it's so funny because my husband will walk he like walks He like will put

40:30

a cup of tea next to me because he's so happy to see me just doing something

40:35

for myself because I don't normally do that.

40:38

And I'm learning to be excited and probably like, hey, I just read nine books. You know what I mean?

40:44

What's the next one you think I should read? You know, and he's like,

40:46

I can't believe you're into sci-fi, like sci-fi, like opera.

40:51

Like these like three to six book series like about. And they're always women

40:56

heroines, by the way. That has not changed. A pain in the ass of the patriarchy. I'm like calling it out wherever I can

41:05

be anywhere. I'm like, yeah, it's because men are doing this. I'm sorry.

41:08

Luckily, there are a few good men in the world, honestly, because like, and my son is one of them.

41:15

My husband is one. I got a few friends. But honestly, I got a few brothers and

41:20

my brother-in-law, but honestly,

41:23

that has not changed that's a

41:26

core part of who I am that'll never change it's

41:29

just redirected yeah thank you so

41:33

much this has been amazing oh my gosh I haven't gone on and on too much no when

41:38

you ask somebody who speaks who spoke for a living to and you know it's gonna

41:43

be like blah blah blah but you know you know what is wonderful you know what's

41:47

funny though it's like as soon as I turned 60 literally early,

41:50

between 59 and 60, a switch went off on me.

41:54

And I was like, you know what? I don't really give a fuck about a whole lot of things. Right.

41:59

I care about my happiness. I care about my wife's happiness. Yes.

42:05

I'm here to make myself happy. And, you know, my wife's funny.

42:09

And Dirty Skittles happy. And Dirty Skittles happy. So my wife's super funny. She's nailing it.

42:13

She was like, I've never seen you work on something so hard and not get paid for it.

42:18

But I really, I believe in our mission for the podcast, right?

42:22

And our mission is to really normalize how we talk about mental health.

42:26

Me too, which is why I was like, can I be part of this too?

42:29

Because I think what you're doing is truly remarkable. And I think it's funny as hell, for one.

42:36

It's poignant as hell, for another.

42:39

And it's really important. It's important. And I think I'm very impressed that you're doing it.

42:45

And I'm honored to be part of it.

42:48

And I can't wait to hear more from everybody.

42:54

Thank you. So I am going to turn the tables on Dirty Skittles and Cecile now.

42:59

Why? Because you normally ask these questions, but I am going to change. I'm changing it up.

43:06

So my first question is, what is one word that you love the most?

43:12

That's a tough one. I know the word you hate the most. I don't like being put

43:14

on the spot like this. Yeah.

43:17

Look, it's Dirty Skittles is going to answer first, right? Well,

43:20

she got to think about it. The word I love the most. Mommy.

43:26

Oh, okay. That's a good one. I like that one. That's a good one.

43:30

I hear ma more than mommy these days, but that's also pretty good. Yeah.

43:36

Do you want me to answer too? Yeah, no, you get to answer. It's a two-part question. Joy. I like that.

43:43

Joy. I love that. I love that. Okay, so now I have another one.

43:48

I already know the answer for this one for Dirty Skittles, but what's the word you hate the most?

43:54

I'm dying. I'm going to die of laughter. I'll say mine. I'll say mine.

43:57

Well, the word I hate the most is moist. The most I was going to say.

44:02

Everybody hates moist. It's gross.

44:05

Moist or wasp. I don't like wasps. I don't like the way that comes out.

44:12

It's a little hard to say. Yeah. I get that. I actually get that.

44:18

Oh, mine is going to take me right into the world of business speak.

44:21

And I think it's empowerment. I think it's abuse.

44:26

I love that. There's nothing wrong with the word itself.

44:31

I just think it's abuse. It's like we're empowering our people.

44:34

I'm like, yeah, you know, women's empowerment.

44:38

I'm like, even the word power is a little, means a little something different

44:43

to women than it does to men. Exactly. Exactly.

44:48

Either that it's yeah probably empowerment there's a

44:51

lot of business word business speak i think

44:54

heart share mind share those always make me gag too and

44:58

also talking around the piece i know that's more than one word but like around

45:03

the piece like what piece and why not just talk directly about it yes whatever

45:08

the piece is i think that's a whole other podcast is things Things that make you go, bleh. Yeah.

45:17

I hear you. I love this.

45:22

Cecile, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was so awesome.

45:27

It's so great to catch up with you. And now you're part of the family.

45:31

Awesome. You know, we have 60 of you now. 60 family members we never had before.

45:37

That is amazing. 60. And you know, so Chris is going to be 60 in a few months.

45:43

I'm just two years behind him. So I'm getting there really quickly.

45:46

Although I do like to talk about the fact that we're from two different generations.

45:50

I'm Gen X and he's a boomer, a Jones apparently, because, but that's a pretty auspicious number.

45:58

It is. Because when you had your turning point, you were talking about your

46:01

turning point. My turning point for sure was my mom's passing.

46:04

And I was like, nothing matters as much as that.

46:10

Happiness. You know what? And I'm telling you, you look amazing.

46:15

Like you... For somebody who just woke up. Yeah, but you glow like happiness, right?

46:20

You can tell that you're out there and you're living your best life now, right?

46:24

And on vacation, having friends be part of that and stuff. I had so much fun.

46:30

Like I have this joke term, it's called chilling hard, you know,

46:33

because I had a hard time relaxing. So chilling hard means, you know, I'm working really hard at it,

46:38

but I'm doing, you know, the kind of relaxing that works for me.

46:41

Yeah, love, love, love. But I'm happy to see both of you.

46:46

And again, I want to thank you for what you're doing for everybody out there

46:51

because it's awesome. Oh, thank you. Really impressive.

46:54

It's inspiring and it's awesome. So you're living your best lives. Well, one of us is.

47:01

All these words. And we didn't get to hear what your favorite and most hated

47:05

words were. My favorite word is love.

47:09

Oh, love that. And the word I hate the most is,

47:14

but I can't, I'm going to just spell it. Starts with a C and ends with a T.

47:19

It's my least favorite word. That's a bad word. That is an unpleasant word.

47:23

That one doesn't trip off the tongue very nicely and it's just an awful word.

47:27

I agree with you. Yes. It's awful. Yeah. And so, yeah. And joy, I never actually said what joy to me.

47:33

It's because you can find joy. If you can find joy in anything, in sadness, in tragedy, in beauty,

47:40

in love and everything else. It's like you don't have to if you can see

47:46

those things then you don't have to seek happiness you

47:49

find peace that is like a totally different state of being yeah i love that

47:56

wow i had to write that down we're giving skittles like all these little nuggets

48:02

of information because i'm telling you don't wait until you're 60 to find this though No,

48:07

don't wait till you're 60, 57, 56, whatever. Just do it.

48:12

And I can't wait for the shower of yours. It's going to be a revelatory shower. Oh my God, I know.

48:16

It's going to be important. I'm telling you. It's going to be a life-changing moment for you.

48:21

Thank you so much again. This has been awesome. Sorry, Jurek, to cut you off.

48:25

I love you both. Thank you so much. This has been a really wonderful way to wake up.

48:32

Yes, enjoy the rest of your day. Hi, y'all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

48:37

I'm t-rex and i'm dirty skittles don't forget to subscribe rate and review this

48:42

podcast we'd love to listen to

48:45

your feedback we can't do this without you guys it's okay to be not okay.

48:53

Music.