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With millions of copies of their materials circulating

0:32

in over 200 countries around the world, this

0:34

group may seem like just another branch of Christianity.

0:37

But under the surface, fear-mongering,

0:40

scare tactics, and outright abuse permeate

0:42

this group that makes leaving feel like a

0:45

decision as serious as death.

0:47

This week's episode is Jehovah's Witnesses,

0:50

Part 2.

0:58

Your heart fills with dread,

1:00

probably a murderer who wants

1:03

you dead. It could be

1:05

a ghost, a demon, or worse.

1:07

Perhaps you're the victim of a witch's

1:10

curse. It's hopeless, you're doomed,

1:12

you'd call a priest if you could. You'd

1:15

rather just listen to who?

1:18

Sinisterhood. I'm

1:26

gonna kill you. Well, thank

1:28

you to everyone for the lovely

1:31

feedback from Part 1, from emails,

1:33

DMs, comments,

1:35

comments on Reddit, comments on social media. Thank

1:38

you to everybody who's listened so far, and thanks

1:40

for all the additional information folks have sent

1:42

in for us. For sure. We have

1:44

received so many,

1:47

so many emails from so many people

1:49

that have their own story,

1:52

and I am making my way

1:54

through them. I gotta take them in

1:56

doses because it's,

1:59

uh, they're all... very similar

2:01

in horrible ways.

2:04

So to, you know, read 15

2:06

of those back-to-back is, it's

2:09

powerful and it's also validating

2:13

that the

2:15

information we are giving is widely

2:17

available. It's not even opinion, it's just

2:19

straight-up fact and how damaging

2:23

it is to those that have

2:25

been subjected to this. In so

2:28

many ways, we got an email yesterday

2:32

from a former

2:34

JW that pointed

2:37

out that, you know, her

2:39

and lots of others

2:42

grow up in this religion and they don't experience

2:45

sexual abuse

2:46

or

2:48

abuse of some type. However,

2:51

just being exposed to the

2:53

ideologies that are put forth in

2:56

the JW doctrine, you

2:58

can't escape that unscathed. I

3:01

mean, the doctrine that is preached

3:03

in and of itself is homophobic,

3:07

sexist. I mean, it goes

3:09

against getting help for mental health disorders.

3:12

So they pointed out

3:14

that even if you grow up and you

3:16

have a quote, pretty

3:18

good childhood following this religion,

3:20

it still isn't

3:23

a great childhood because there's just

3:26

rampant abuse going

3:28

throughout and even if you don't experience

3:30

it yourself, you know someone that did and at

3:32

the very least you're exposed to all

3:34

these harmful practices and teachings.

3:37

Right and that's only if you

3:39

get a

3:39

hold of literature, doctrine, apostate

3:41

stuff from the outside world because of course none of

3:44

the contradictions that we point out are not highlighted.

3:47

The harmful practices

3:49

that are encouraged are not highlighted. The Watchtower

3:52

in fact will see sort of changes its mind whenever

3:54

it wants to. So yeah, even best case

3:56

scenario growing up in this group, best case

3:58

scenario, nobody It even hits you, nobody

4:01

talks across to you. You are still

4:03

hearing that by its very nature

4:06

of a controlled, coercive organization

4:08

manipulating its followers, it still

4:11

is harmful. Even at its best, it's terrible.

4:14

At its best, it's terrible. And at

4:16

its worst, it's... Unimaginable.

4:18

Oh, just... it's sickening. Truly

4:21

sickening. There are stories

4:23

I have read, I will be honest with you, there

4:25

are stories I've read about what people have done to

4:27

each other that I haven't even mentioned or sent to

4:30

you because it's stuff that's so heinous, that's

4:32

done in the name of God, that's done because of these

4:34

things, that goes beyond the heinous stuff

4:36

that we're even going to talk about today in the next one. That's

4:39

how bad it goes when we say

4:41

the worst is unimaginable. Yeah,

4:43

yeah, yeah. Some things

4:47

you can't speak about. Our

4:49

queen, Taylor Swift, says,

4:52

and I saw, and we see

4:55

you, XJW subreddit,

4:57

we see you and someone

5:00

said, great job, they didn't even

5:03

scratch the surface. And

5:05

I mean, that episode was an hour and a

5:07

half and weeks long

5:09

worth of research and that shows you just how

5:12

layered and insidious this

5:14

really is. And we

5:17

on the outside, as apostates

5:19

proudly, I mean, there's only so

5:21

much we can read and watch and be

5:24

able to regurgitate that in the sense that

5:26

we don't know everything. I

5:28

mean, to be in it is to

5:31

truly know how horrible

5:33

it is and to see the things that are

5:36

unspeakable and things

5:38

that aren't made available to the public, no matter

5:40

how much digging you do. So as

5:42

much as we might know now and can

5:45

speak about this, like they

5:47

said, until you're like

5:50

entrenched in it, I really don't think even

5:52

then you can understand how damaging

5:55

this is. Truly, I mean, people dedicate

5:57

their entire lives to this, you know, folks that get

6:00

out then turn and become advocates.

6:02

And it's interesting because on the one hand, I think,

6:05

because the JW as

6:07

a whole, the Watchtower Society is like, Oh, you want to

6:09

preach the good news, the idea is to bring more

6:12

people into the fold. So I think it naturally attracts

6:14

people who are thoughtful, conscientious,

6:17

want justice. And so then when they are that

6:19

waking up of like, Oh my God, it is worse

6:21

than I could ever imagine you see him on the other side,

6:24

saying, No, I'm still gonna fight for justice. I'm

6:26

still gonna fight for what's right. But it's against the

6:28

Watchtower. So it's like, you know, y'all,

6:30

Watchtower recruited good souls in

6:32

a lot of these cases, who go, Oh, hell

6:35

no, and have to quit and then become those

6:37

mouthpieces. And but for a lot

6:39

of brave people who risked a lot of shit,

6:42

a bunch of this would not come to light. So thank you

6:44

to everybody who's risked not only your own, being

6:47

connected to your family safety, whatever,

6:49

but just maybe being sued by the

6:51

way, you know, they get litigants. So all the risks

6:53

that any of the XJWs

6:55

or the folks that are still in, you know, mentally

6:58

out, but physically in, thank you for all

7:00

you do to leak stuff and reveal what's

7:02

really going on. Absolutely. You

7:05

are no pun intended doing the Lord's

7:07

work. Really? And I saw

7:11

an encouraging post on the XJW

7:14

subreddit from someone that said, I

7:17

think that

7:18

more

7:20

spotlight is being shown on them

7:23

now that is in a negative light that they

7:25

do not want specifically with child sexual

7:27

abuse. And so many

7:30

people are now talking about it

7:32

and showing it for what it truly is, that

7:35

this person was

7:37

picked in the idea that a mass exodus

7:40

from the religion is coming, that people

7:42

are wising up to it. And I mean, more

7:45

and more, you can tell people

7:47

to stay offline or whatever, it's not going to

7:49

happen. And I mean, I've heard from

7:51

a lot of people that said, I grew

7:55

up in one where everyone had Instagram.

7:57

Someone even said, Instagram is

7:59

a really big thing. because it's a way for

8:01

you to show just how dedicated you

8:03

are as a witness. Wow. Like

8:06

any type of social media and influencer

8:09

and they're like, it's all about what the governing

8:11

body sees and how many

8:13

videos you put out and how dedicated you

8:15

are. And I'm like, wow, even something that

8:18

kids look to for

8:21

answers, they're using

8:24

it as a way to, you know,

8:27

kind of spread the message in other ways that

8:29

are more relevant. Right. Trying

8:31

to keep claws in people too. I'm like, oh, you can have Instagram,

8:34

but we'll be watching and it better be all in the

8:36

name of Jehovah. But I think even with

8:38

that, there's only so many holes you can plug

8:40

because there's just so many holes in the concept

8:43

of their doctrine that, you know, somebody on the XJW

8:45

said, oh, reading 1984, that

8:48

was a mandatory book in high school, having

8:50

to read 1984, I was like, oh, this is exactly like

8:52

the Watchtower and the governing body. And that's whenever

8:54

I started questioning things. So it's something as simple

8:57

as you go to school and do an assignment, well, it's like,

8:59

well, maybe your kid shouldn't be in the worldly schools. They

9:01

should be at home. So there's only so

9:03

much where you become more and more insular. And I think that

9:05

that estimation is right. We may see this shrink

9:07

and shrink and shrink. But we'll talk

9:10

about all their assets and

9:11

part three and the money part of it, which

9:14

I think may try to get their claws

9:16

in.

9:17

Another thing too, that I had thought

9:19

about and then several other people have mentioned

9:22

in their emails, the

9:24

numbers are grossly inflated. As

9:27

far as how many JWs are

9:29

worldwide that they like to put on their website,

9:32

you know, 8.7 million people. So

9:34

a lot of those are PMOS, physically

9:36

and mentally out or like

9:39

others we've heard from in like Freaky Friday, they

9:41

just kind of they're not just fellowship, they

9:43

just, you know, kind of Homer

9:45

Simpson back into the bushes. So

9:47

on paper, their number is still there,

9:50

but they're not there. But it's the

9:52

way for them to look

9:54

like their numbers are bigger than they are,

9:56

which, you know, can be a selling point.

9:59

Right. I'm sure. somebody is just fading quietly,

10:01

but not outright disassociating

10:03

or doing something that would get disfellowshipped. Certainly

10:06

you'd want to count them. Absolutely. You

10:08

look so great. You look cute. Yeah. So but

10:10

yeah, I think it is the the active numbers

10:12

are much smaller than what's been for sure.

10:14

I put out there. Well,

10:17

last week we gave a content warning.

10:20

It's the same one for this week with some addition

10:23

some added stuff.

10:25

To the point where I had to message Heather

10:28

and go, I think I'm going to rearrange

10:30

this and we're going to have it go XYZ.

10:34

And you said, when we have to discuss

10:36

the order in which we're discussing humans

10:39

rights violations, it's definitely

10:41

a cult. Right? We're like, which one do we put

10:43

in what order? What human rights violations do we

10:45

list in what order? Then yeah, it's not like maybe

10:47

it's just a religion. It's got a bad light cast

10:50

on it. It's like no, it's

10:54

it's corrupt. Yeah, so

10:56

this episode is going to contain discussions

10:58

of religious abuse, sexual abuse,

11:00

birth trauma and familial side to

11:04

name a few. There's probably I mean, it's

11:08

a it's a gut punch. So yeah, that's

11:08

not for you then I would I would skip

11:11

over it.

11:12

Understandably, so it's it's

11:14

been hard for us to research

11:16

and discuss. And I I know from people

11:21

that are still in it or x JW.

11:24

It's been hard for them to listen to because

11:26

they're like, I kind

11:28

of pushed down a lot of this trauma and

11:31

forgot about a lot of these things. And then

11:33

like the floodgates opened up memories.

11:36

When y'all were talking about stuff, and

11:40

that'll happen. And you know, I mean,

11:42

for it can be healing. I hope it is

11:44

for a lot of people that maybe you're able

11:47

to come to terms with some things that you weren't

11:49

before. Definitely. Hopefully it

11:51

is. It's healing and not read traumatic because

11:53

yeah, there's hopefully power

11:56

in some of these stories and saying you pushed it

11:58

down because you're like it was so bad. I don't want to believe it's

12:00

real, well that denies you some of the validity of

12:02

like, no, it was real and it did happen.

12:06

Absolutely. Well, I'm Christy.

12:08

I'm Heather. And let's get into

12:10

it. For the past century,

12:13

Jehovah's Witnesses have ministered door to

12:15

door, proselytizing to anyone

12:17

that will listen about Jehovah's teachings. Witnesses

12:20

are instructed to never question these teachings,

12:22

fearing they will be labeled an apostate, doomed

12:25

to burn to death in Armageddon. This

12:27

deadly consequence, however, does not apply

12:29

to everyone within the organization. Indeed,

12:32

the governing body, using the justification

12:35

that they are the mouthpiece of God, continue

12:37

to make changes to the JW doctrine

12:40

that are expected to be accepted and

12:42

celebrated rather than punished. One

12:46

such change involves the so-called 144,000 Anointed

12:49

Ones, an early teaching

12:52

of the Watchtower Society. That

12:54

number is only mentioned twice in the Bible,

12:57

both times in Revelation, but the group

12:59

has fixated on it literally. Founder

13:02

C.T. Russell told followers that

13:04

by 1881, 144,000 souls had already been chosen to live in heaven by God.

13:06

These souls would

13:12

be considered

13:14

true Christians

13:15

by Jehovah and spend eternity with

13:17

him in heaven. The rest of the souls

13:20

who serve Jehovah would inherit everlasting

13:22

paradise on earth after the world ends,

13:25

while non-followers perish.

13:29

Russell's successor, J.F. Rutherford, changed

13:31

this cutoff date from 1881 to 1931, then later to 1935. He declared that

13:34

as the year that the

13:39

heavenly call for souls ceased. New

13:42

arrivals could only hope for everlasting

13:44

paradise on earth, but not in heaven

13:46

since all the spots had been taken. In 2007,

13:49

the Watchtower changed the stance

13:52

once again, now stating that

13:54

some people born since 1935 still

13:57

had hope to be anointed by God and

13:59

become a God. one of the chosen ones.

14:02

And talk about 1984 right off the bat. They're like, don't

14:05

believe what I said, believe what I'm

14:08

saying because I knew

14:10

shit has come to light. And it's like you're just changing your

14:12

mind because the date came and went, you jackass.

14:15

Yeah, I mean that's the problem with Doomsday

14:18

Cults is when the date comes

14:20

and goes you're kind of left holding

14:22

the bag looking like an idiot and then

14:24

you have to, oh well

14:27

new information has come

14:29

to light. Standby. It's not gonna

14:32

be 1931. Now it's gonna, you got four

14:34

more years so you better make them count.

14:36

Don't go to college, don't

14:38

spend those four years going to college. No, no,

14:40

the door is closing you better jump in. Also

14:42

terrible for recruitment. There was a bunch of, someone

14:45

has, I think it was on jwfacts.com,

14:47

it might have been on XJW, but someone

14:49

had gone together and kind of pieced and this

14:52

is also one of the things that James Zimmerman who wrote

14:54

Deliverance at Hand, this kind of memoir of his

14:56

own internal, because he wasn't

14:58

even looking at apostate websites, internally comparing

15:01

these and going, boy it used to say this and

15:03

now it says this. And oftentimes young

15:06

JWs who are hungry for knowledge who are like,

15:08

I'm gonna go read JF Rutherford's book and then I'm gonna

15:10

read Nathan Knorr's book. The older ones will go,

15:12

well we didn't really know what they were talking

15:15

about so be careful reading all that. So

15:17

it's like you're having to always change it. But let me

15:19

just say for recruitment, a hard cut

15:21

off number is fucking stupid. It's

15:23

a terrible idea. Join our cult. All

15:25

the spots are full. Listen, you're not going to heaven.

15:27

It's bad news. The best we're

15:30

gonna give you is everlasting paradise

15:32

on earth, but heaven? It's out of the question. I'm sorry

15:34

you should have been born earlier. Yeah, that's the other

15:36

thing. Well then they start trying to do math. They're like, well about 56,000

15:38

was maybe in Israel,

15:41

maybe this, and now they've just sort of said, well you

15:43

never know. Maybe it could be any

15:45

of us. You never know. Yeah.

15:47

You never know except you always

15:51

know and it's Jehovah or die

15:53

and so you can't question it. It's

15:55

this just cycle

15:59

of nonsense. We're

16:01

going to change all these things. So you got to keep

16:03

up. But also, don't ever question

16:05

anything. And you can't ever

16:07

change anything. Only we

16:09

can bring up questions that

16:11

maybe should be changed. And then we're going to tell

16:13

you, and then you can't question it. You just got to talk about

16:16

it. And that's not even that

16:18

you're saying that. And it maybe as a listener

16:20

would laugh. But verbatim is what

16:22

one of the vice presidents of the watchtower said

16:25

on the stand when he was questioned about

16:27

doctrine changing. Like an attorney is like, wait,

16:30

but you said this. And you said that everyone has

16:32

to believe it 100% or they will

16:34

perish forever and get kicked out of the group. That

16:36

is correct. No, but then you changed it.

16:38

And you said that was wrong. And they got to change it.

16:40

And they got to believe the new one. Yes, that's correct

16:42

as well. And he's like, why? And he's

16:45

like, unity, unity at all costs. Yeah. So

16:47

that's it. And then it's period

16:49

full stop. You can't question it anymore after that. Mind

16:52

boggling. Yeah, it truly is. I mean, it's

16:55

confusing to say because it's confusing

16:57

to even try and understand. Certainly. Yeah,

16:59

because it's made up like six different times

17:02

by 17 different dudes. Yeah. And

17:04

also, I mean, like with a lot of cults,

17:07

keeping your followers confused is

17:09

a tactic to keep them under your control.

17:12

It's a good way to keep in fighting

17:14

amongst each other of who is the most holy

17:17

and most worthy. So then they're all trying to fight

17:19

for your attention versus them all getting

17:21

together and going, we think we've been sold some

17:23

bullshit. And we've got some problems with the leadership.

17:26

It's like, no, no, no, keep fighting with each other. It's

17:29

kind of like what all the rich oligarchs have

17:31

done to all of us for the past like 200 years. Just

17:33

keep everybody fighting amongst each other. We'll be

17:35

counting the money. Absolutely. Some

17:39

witnesses feel that they have already been chosen

17:41

to be one of the 144,000. As

17:44

an anointed one, you are allowed to partake

17:47

in the bread and wine and memory of Jesus at

17:49

the annual memorial meeting. The

17:51

watchtower made it clear in its literature. Only

17:54

those who God himself has anointed

17:56

can partake in the communion. At all times,

17:58

members of the Lord have been given the bread and wine. the governing body remain

18:01

anointed ones in the 144,000. However,

18:02

some witnesses over

18:04

the years have

18:06

declared themselves anointed simply

18:08

because they felt moved by the voice of God.

18:11

Watchtower leadership warns they

18:14

may be led astray, writing in 1996, Over

18:17

the years, some, even ones

18:20

newly baptized, have suddenly begun

18:22

to partake. In a number of

18:24

cases, after a while, they acknowledged

18:26

that this was an error. Some

18:28

have recognized that they partook as an emotional

18:31

response to perhaps physical or

18:33

mental strain, but they came to

18:35

see that they really were not called to heavenly

18:38

life. They asked for God's merciful

18:40

understanding. You

18:43

think that was their idea? So

18:45

now it's like, they're like,

18:47

God will tell you when you're chosen. And if you're like,

18:49

I think I've been told by God, they're like,

18:54

we don't have enough bread for everyone. Please

18:56

spit it out. I think you've been mistaken.

18:59

Mm hmm. Are you kidding me? So

19:01

I mean, I mean, like you just said,

19:03

like with many organizations of

19:06

power, there's a handful

19:08

of people that really benefit from everything.

19:10

And everybody else is just a pawn in their

19:12

game. Mm hmm. And it's like, what can I

19:14

say to these people to control them and shut them

19:17

up? And now you're gaslighting them because it's all

19:19

yeah, you'll feel the spirit, the spirit will move

19:21

you and then you felt moved and they're like, well, it wasn't really

19:23

the spirit probably indigestion sit back down.

19:26

Like and and for those that are

19:28

steadfast in their faith and really

19:31

believe in this, to be told,

19:34

no, you didn't receive that. I mean, that

19:37

that's devastating to hear that, oh,

19:40

what I thought was an actual message of God that

19:42

I believed and I've based my whole life

19:44

on. I'm now being told

19:46

by a leader

19:49

that I physical leader that I can see,

19:51

no, that was that wasn't

19:54

it. You're wrong. Well, how do you know you're not

19:56

me? You don't know what I felt or heard. Well,

19:59

they talk to God. And I forgot

20:01

it sounds like God is really meddling with everybody

20:03

because he's whispering to the governing body Well

20:06

Heather doesn't know what she's talking about. But meanwhile, he's

20:08

telling me hey fuck those guys like

20:10

so we've been having a different conversation That's

20:13

what always gets me and I could go on a rant

20:15

because I was bullied as a non-christian

20:17

kid by Some really religious kids in

20:19

grade school and one of those things was like, oh, well

20:22

God told me this and I was like You

20:24

can't just say God told you a thing. I just

20:26

say just anybody told me anything They're like, but I

20:28

would know you were lying. I'm like, I know you

20:31

were lying So anytime you get this like oh,

20:33

well Jesus is whispering to me through the air conditioning

20:35

vent How come some of us are

20:38

made fun of when that happens and others are given

20:40

houses to live in that the watchtower

20:41

society Pays for in upstate New York

20:43

like the governing body.

20:45

Yeah, I remember a friend

20:47

in elementary school coming

20:49

to me and saying that

20:53

Jesus had spoken to her and was

20:55

and

20:55

that told her she

20:57

needed to come to me because I needed

21:01

saving and to and

21:03

she was the one to do it and

21:06

I think I just said cool and

21:09

walked away. I don't really remember

21:13

That's like a thing that Nancy McKinney would respond

21:15

to and go Jesus is not meddling in the

21:18

affairs of fourth graders Taylor She's an idiot.

21:21

Well Maybe

21:25

because I went to an episcopalian school,

21:27

but this person was actually very Baptist but

21:30

you know, yeah and grew up in a very

21:32

religious household as well, but it's Looking

21:36

back now. I think What

21:39

that must have felt like for what a 910? I don't

21:41

know how old you are then to

21:44

think that that was Something

21:46

that was their responsibility. Yeah.

21:48

Oh, yeah to save their friends soul

21:50

from eternal damnation. Yeah. Oh,

21:53

yeah and Spoiler alert

21:55

it wasn't no Oh,

21:59

I just meant

21:59

My soul was not saved. I hope I can

22:02

do whatever I want.

22:05

Sinister Hudd will be right back.

22:08

You know what I had for lunch today? What's

22:11

that? I had some rice cakes with

22:13

some cold turkey on it. Oh,

22:16

I love that. That's why my sandwich, my lunchtime

22:18

sandwich is always a cold turkey sandwich. Well,

22:20

it was great for eating, but

22:23

when it comes to breaking bad

22:25

habits, there's a better way than just

22:27

going cold turkey. Right? You don't have

22:29

to go cold turkey, but you also have to go to the other spectrum,

22:31

which is getting some wacky woo-woo

22:33

advice from someone that rando down the street that's

22:35

like, I'll tell you what you need to do. No,

22:38

don't tell me anything. I'm okay. There's better

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and use code CREEPY to save an additional 10% off

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your order today. The

24:31

flip-flopping policy is the concept

24:34

of new light, a reference to

24:36

unilateral changes to doctrine handed

24:38

down from the governing body. After

24:40

Russell's many failed predictions, he

24:43

used this concept to explain his mistakes.

24:45

Based on Proverbs 4.18, which reads, but

24:48

the path of the righteous ones is like

24:51

the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter

24:53

until the day is firmly established. Witnesses

24:57

are to accept change in doctrine as a reflection

24:59

of the watchtower and governing body's greater

25:02

understanding of Jehovah's will. Being

25:04

told, the Bible tells us the light

25:06

would get brighter. I

25:09

think we talked about it in the first episode of

25:11

these kind of get-out-of-jail-free

25:14

cars, or these loopholes that they create for

25:17

themselves. So it's like an escape

25:19

door. If at any time it's like the

25:21

curtain starts to get pulled back, it's like, no, no, no, no,

25:23

no, look over here, look over here. Don't look at the man behind the

25:25

curtain. Yeah, the light is just brighter.

25:27

It's brighter over here, though. Don't look on that side. Don't

25:30

look over there. But it's just another instance

25:33

of taking a Bible verse out of context, if they

25:35

didn't already translate it incorrectly, but

25:37

then taking it out of context. And the part

25:39

about, I was watching another documentary

25:42

and Paris was in the room doing something else, but

25:44

he studied the Bible in college and stuff.

25:46

And he's like, the part about the blood transfusion,

25:48

he's like, that's about eating blood. That doesn't

25:51

even fit. Others have emailed that in as well.

25:53

But he just like, it's like it caught his ear and

25:56

he said also, that's probably like a fourth

25:58

or fifth translation, so it's hard. to say that

26:01

translation is the absolute right one. I'll go, yeah,

26:03

it's just, but if you can make it work for

26:05

yourself like this, hey, Luke, it's a new light.

26:07

Well, I mean, if we're

26:11

gonna just say what it is, it's

26:14

all made up. And so then you get

26:17

a fifth translation of something

26:19

that was already a story. And

26:21

now you have another group that's saying,

26:23

well, we're gonna cherry pick. And I mean,

26:25

that's not uncommon for religions and cult

26:27

to cherry pick from all sorts of stuff. So

26:31

it's just interesting that at the end

26:33

of the day, all of this is

26:35

over stuff that no

26:37

one can prove is even

26:39

true. Right, exactly. It's like

26:42

my version of the truth. Which copy are

26:44

you looking at? And also, were

26:46

you there? No. No, none of

26:48

us were. You know, I mean, maybe the aliens

26:50

live under the sea. That's who we need to be talking

26:52

to because maybe they saw how it

26:55

all went down in the beginning. But none of

26:57

us did. It's so hard. None of this is right. Oh

26:59

shit, you guys weren't even listening to most of what we said.

27:02

Fuck. 144,000 are down here under the sea with us. Can

27:07

I join? I would take me now, please.

27:09

It's like a-

27:10

I'll go right now. Dark, that's all my

27:12

favorite things. Yeah, cool.

27:16

Perhaps one of the staunchest and most

27:18

disturbing beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses

27:21

is that the apocalypse is imminent. Though

27:23

like other teachings, the timeline of impending

27:26

doom continues to change. Under

27:28

the new light, this is something JW's

27:30

must accept without question.

27:34

Calling it a universal war waged by

27:36

God, the watchtower has taught since

27:38

at least 1925 that the

27:41

unfaithful non-witnesses would

27:43

be slaughtered and dead forever. And

27:45

only true followers would have everlasting

27:47

life with Jehovah. Founder

27:50

C.T. Russell believed Jesus' presence

27:52

on earth began in 1874 and

27:54

preached that faithful souls would be translated

27:57

into spirit form in 1878. However,

28:01

the date came and went with no ascension. Russell

28:04

pushed the date to 1881, recognizing

28:07

in a writing that all were more

28:09

or less disappointed when nothing supernatural

28:11

occurred. On his prior failed prophecy. But 1881

28:16

was a bust too, and caused some followers

28:18

to question Russell. He then pushed

28:20

the date to 1914, explaining

28:22

that year was the end of human rulership

28:25

on Earth. Well, you gotta

28:28

give it a little oopsie. You're like, well, things

28:31

have transpired?

28:33

Oh no.

28:34

When 1914 came and went, Russell

28:37

explained in another publication. We

28:39

did not say positively that this would

28:41

be the year. We merely left everyone

28:43

to look at the facts of history and reckon

28:46

for himself. Russell

28:48

then explained that God's kingdom on Earth would

28:50

happen gradually, not all at once. He

28:52

later marked the beginning of World War I

28:54

as the start of the end of times, changing

28:57

his prophecy of Armageddon from

28:59

a date certain to a gradual era.

29:02

Such a good hack. You

29:04

got to. If you're like, the world's gonna end

29:06

on March 11, 2025, and then March 11, suddenly it's

29:08

March 12, and you're like, oh no. You

29:13

just have to be like, listen, over the next few

29:15

years, shit's... and by few, maybe I

29:17

made 100 or 1000 or 8, shit's gonna get bad. Yeah.

29:23

Hot take. Things are gonna get

29:25

worse over the next 100 years. I

29:27

mean, better or worse, you tell me what's

29:29

worse. I have a cell phone now. I have Taylor Swift

29:31

music. I can go to the bathroom inside my

29:33

house. I think it's a lot better than things we're

29:35

in. No, I am playing

29:37

devil's advocate. I do think it will get better.

29:40

But I also think that it's,

29:42

you know, easy to say all that because

29:44

you're like, bye. I won't be here because

29:47

I'll be dead. I didn't get the answer for

29:49

all of these lies. It's best

29:51

to make a doomsday prophecy

29:52

if you're like at least 85. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:55

You're like, shit's going down in a year or two

29:57

maybe, and you can just bounce.

29:59

Watchtower literature currently points

30:02

to 1914 as the beginning of the end of

30:04

the world, stating, many

30:06

people agree that since the year 1914, world

30:09

conditions have matched what the Bible foretold

30:12

and that the end is near. Recent

30:15

videos show governing body members referring

30:17

to the COVID-19 pandemic as

30:19

further evidence of the ongoing Armageddon,

30:22

with Stephen Lettsang in 2020 that we

30:24

are in. The final part

30:26

of the final

30:27

part of the

30:29

last days.

30:38

I'm

30:38

Stephen Lettsang and I'm

30:41

a governing body member, but

30:44

maybe I was a claymation figurine

30:46

that made a wish and came to life.

30:49

Too bad I have a goofy

30:51

fucking voice and an evil fucking

30:53

soul. And

30:56

the... His mouth... I hate him a lot, don't fuck

30:58

him enough. His mouth, it is a full

31:01

body like movement

31:04

for him to talk. The mouth is all

31:06

over his face. The videos that feature

31:08

Stephen Lettsang should be illegal. Oh I

31:10

hate him. It's not the content, I don't want to

31:13

look at his face. I hate it. Every part of him about

31:15

him. And it's just because you know it's so fucking

31:18

full of shit and evil. Like what he said.

31:20

Oh yeah. Yeah. I feel

31:22

like he probably took

31:25

on that affectation with his voice to

31:27

sound like a cartoon character

31:29

because no one can be scared

31:31

of me. Come on children,

31:34

let's go into the kingdom hall

31:36

by ourselves. I won't hurt

31:38

you. Like the... For

31:41

no reason. Like any of the Freaky Friday stories

31:43

we ever got of people being like, oh I snuck

31:45

into the Waverly Hills Sanatorium or

31:47

I snuck into this old house. I would sneak into an

31:49

old house at 3 o'clock, 3

31:52

33 a.m. with... I would rather

31:54

do that than spend five minutes in a room with this guy. He

31:56

is scary as fuck to me. He is. You

31:59

know. I agree. Any amount

32:01

of horror scare whatever it's something

32:03

so insidious in your right that he has he's trying

32:05

to have this wide-eyed happy Expression

32:07

but the words that come out of his mouth are hateful

32:10

as fuck Yeah, it's

32:12

awful. It's actually serving. That's

32:15

why it's disturbing. He's very disturbing. What

32:17

are you what are you saying? It's horrible It's like

32:19

yeah, he is fucked up because it's supposed

32:21

to be cute. It's supposed to be a doll. It's chucky

32:24

like the chucky doll Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

32:26

but chucky also he looks evil

32:28

and Stephen let he looks evil Extreme

32:31

religious people have always freaked

32:33

me out and I've never wanted particularly

32:36

to be alone in a room with them and He's

32:39

probably at the top of my list Yeah,

32:41

but honestly and that's just more insidious and

32:43

he's calling it Well, they realized that

32:46

in the 70s they were like this is the final part

32:48

of last days They said that in the 70s. Well

32:50

now it's like 30 40 years later now Well,

32:52

it's the end of the final part of

32:54

the end of the part of the end that

32:56

already ended What scrubs

32:59

just fucking leave just

33:01

leave so I don't know. I know

33:03

don't come back

33:05

It wasn't as good and now

33:07

you got to explain it to everybody and it doesn't

33:09

make any sense Now we're stuck with this eighth season

33:11

this such shit. Oh

33:13

Man, I

33:15

mean I for so many

33:18

cults the pandemic

33:20

was For existing

33:22

cults kind of this feather in

33:24

their cap of like we told you see

33:27

it's the end of days is here and on

33:30

the flip side People

33:32

that maybe had no affiliation to anything like

33:34

that and then get stuck in their homes for two years

33:37

and find Communities like this online

33:39

and then you know start to spiral That

33:43

also was a big problem with doomsday

33:45

cults. You get a global pandemic. I imagine

33:48

they're like, oh, hell Yeah, this is what we've

33:50

been waiting for. We got them now Yeah,

33:52

witnesses said people on xjw and some of

33:55

the other interviews I've seen have said like

33:57

oh when these big things happen for parents

34:00

or you know, especially lifelong long term

34:02

people that have been in for a long time trying to say, Hey,

34:05

you know, let's get out of it. Something

34:07

as big as COVID is like they were right. Look,

34:10

they were right. And so it's vindication justification.

34:13

And in some cases, sadly, it gets

34:15

people dug more down in there. Because

34:17

the outside world that they've been told is scary.

34:19

They're now seeing firsthand, it is really

34:22

scary. You know, you have to wear masks to go outside. It's a

34:24

pestilence. And it's it

34:26

caused them to just lock down, which is like,

34:28

you know, stay in even harder. We're

34:31

not allowed to get have medical interventions.

34:33

So I imagine you're not allowed to

34:35

have the vaccine. That's a great

34:37

question. I don't know their stance on the vaccine

34:40

in particular. They like,

34:42

I think you can like, go get a checkup.

34:44

But I don't it says on their website, they like say

34:46

if you're sick, you should go to the doctor, they do

34:48

at least the public facing doctor

34:50

that is approved by us

34:53

and is also at JW. And yeah, when

34:55

it says or if you go to the doctor, and they start

34:57

pushing stuff on you call the hospital liaison

35:00

committee, which is not an expert. It's literally just people

35:02

from the church that are loyal to the governing

35:04

body who will come and sit in the room with you

35:06

and make decisions with

35:08

you. But the video footage I saw

35:11

from the JW website was this

35:13

hospital liaison committee was acting without

35:15

the patient, like on the patient's behalf,

35:17

speaking one on one with the doctor. And

35:19

I was like, they just subconsciously set you up

35:22

by this promotional video, that that's what

35:24

you should expect that if the hospital liaison

35:26

committee comes for a blood choice or whatever, that

35:29

they're they you should let them speak

35:30

to the doctor. And wow, that's

35:33

a lot of control to exert over your followers.

35:35

Absolutely.

35:38

According to the current website, in 1914,

35:40

God's kingdom began

35:42

ruling in heaven. And one of its first

35:45

actions was to expel Satan the devil

35:47

and the demons from heaven and restrict

35:49

their activity to the earth. Satan's

35:52

influence on mankind can be seen in many

35:54

of the bad attitudes and actions that

35:56

make the last days critical times hard

35:59

to deal with. The website

36:01

clarifies that the end of the world is predetermined

36:04

and coming soon, though it won't be caused

36:06

by humans or an astronomical event. Instead,

36:09

God will send an army of angelic creatures

36:12

to exterminate his enemies. All

36:14

those who are not active witnesses at the

36:17

time will die. Active

36:19

JWs will be rewarded with a paradise on Earth

36:22

and what they refer to as the

36:24

real life. And yeah,

36:26

this material is fucking awful

36:29

to read. It's weird. There's photos

36:31

of, you know, stock

36:33

photos, well, not stock photos, photos

36:34

they've taken of like, you know, a couple of different

36:36

families all sitting together on a sofa and it says,

36:40

maintaining all contacts with witnesses only

36:42

gives you a taste of what life

36:44

in paradise will be like without these worldly

36:47

people. So it's sort

36:49

of getting you ready, quote

36:51

unquote, but instead it's just another

36:53

way for them to say don't spend any time with anybody

36:56

on the outside. It's another way to isolate

36:58

and control, put

37:01

you in that bubble where it's just an

37:03

echo chamber of same beliefs

37:05

over and over.

37:06

Yeah, I know anytime anybody has bad attitude.

37:08

I'm like, well, that's Satan's influence right there.

37:11

I'm not saying

37:12

that. I also take a

37:14

lot of issue with that

37:16

they say the end of the world is

37:18

predetermined. But

37:21

then it just keeps changing. It

37:23

just it logically it doesn't make any

37:25

sense to me. And that's when that's

37:28

why I never really

37:29

subscribe to any religion growing

37:32

up is because none of them just really like made

37:34

sense to me like

37:36

from a

37:37

like a logical standpoint, if you wrote it all

37:39

out, I'm like, but this doesn't all add up. And

37:43

the problem is, is just

37:45

just faith. It's just faith. You have to believe

37:47

right. That's not a good enough answer for me. It

37:49

is for some and that's fine. But

37:51

for me, I got to see some proof. Well,

37:53

and I was going to say, whenever you say, well, I'm going to need you to make

37:56

some life or death decisions. I don't know

37:58

that I want to just go on the gut. Maybe

38:00

we could look into this. And so when you

38:02

see like, okay, it's one thing to say, well,

38:05

this makes me feel better and I want to take it on faith.

38:07

But if it is like, hello, we would like to control

38:09

every aspect of your life, including what type

38:11

of job you have, how much interaction you have

38:13

with other people, what type of medical care

38:15

you have, what type of sex you're having, what

38:17

type of clothes you're wearing, what's a when

38:20

you want to start then, then yes, it's valid.

38:22

It's absolutely vital for us to get down

38:24

to the nitty gritty and going, okay, but why? But

38:27

why are we doing all this? Because you are now impacting

38:29

my life. But yeah, if it's sort of like a live and let live,

38:31

it's what I believe. It makes me so happy. I got no

38:33

problem with that. But you're right when you're down to like, you

38:36

got to subscribe to this so much that you're

38:38

willing to die for it. I'm going to need to

38:40

see the fine print and receipts.

38:42

Yeah, they working. Author

38:46

and ex JW Amber score described

38:49

device how witnesses are taught that this life

38:51

is transitory as followers wait for

38:53

the new system or life after the

38:55

apocalyptic genocide. And

38:57

witnesses delay having children believing

39:00

it is better to wait for their quote, real

39:02

life in paradise, which is set to

39:04

happen soon, just after the

39:06

deaths of all people on earth except fellow

39:08

witnesses. And that's

39:11

a problem too, when you start

39:13

to, again, this is a cult,

39:15

not a cult, if you're even just running a group

39:17

and you want more people to join,

39:19

and you need more bodies, telling

39:21

them that life's fixing to end and they're in much to

39:24

live for now, that's sort of discouraging.

39:26

And then you're like, Yeah, why isn't anyone having kids?

39:28

We don't have any more members. Well, you just told them they're

39:30

all going to burn and explode. Yeah,

39:33

if we're all going to die any day, why am

39:35

I trying to be pregnant for nine months, I'd

39:37

rather spend the last few days not

39:40

dealing with that. But then it's

39:42

very sad because it comes and goes. And

39:44

then before you know it,

39:46

you're 50, 60 years old, and you didn't

39:48

have kids because and you wanted to,

39:51

you know, and you didn't because of this fear.

39:53

And that's that's really sad to your

39:57

your whole one life

39:58

is.

39:59

expected in a huge

40:02

way by not, you know, I mean, continuing

40:05

on your bloodline, so to speak, because

40:08

of just fear. Yeah, because

40:10

of some group that you just don't have neither get

40:12

born into or they came knocking at your door one day

40:14

and it changed everything. And that idea

40:16

of its transitory, you know, do

40:18

works for Jehovah, we really, really got to

40:20

go knock on all these doors

40:21

and save as many people as possible. It's,

40:24

again, a way to fill everyone's time

40:26

with things that do not help

40:28

them personally, you know, I'm not making myself better,

40:30

I'm not whatever. But to keep

40:33

them so busy that they maintain they are

40:35

stuck under the control of this organization. It's

40:38

touted though, that they are bettering themselves.

40:40

And for those that, you know, are staunch

40:43

in this faith, they do think that

40:45

they are, from an outsider's

40:47

perspective, when you zoom out, and you can see

40:49

how insidious and dangerous this all is,

40:52

it's

40:53

weaponized faith. Right?

40:55

That's the sad part, I think, too, is you're stealing

40:58

the opportunity for someone to truly have a spiritual

41:00

relationship with the universe, the creator,

41:02

God, Jesus, whatever, that they're they've

41:05

stolen that or and sullied it

41:06

for a lot of folks, especially, you know, once they've

41:08

gotten out.

41:10

A former member named Romy discussed

41:12

growing up in the shadow of Armageddon on

41:15

A&E's cults and extreme beliefs. As

41:17

a child, Romy was taught people

41:20

would be up to their neck and urine.

41:22

When the end happened, she told A&E,

41:25

I just remember being afraid. It was very

41:27

scary. I was always told, you better

41:29

watch out because it will be here like a thief in the

41:31

night.

41:32

Romy had nightmares of what her friends bodies

41:35

looked like while decaying on the streets. She

41:38

recalled to A&E how she was told time

41:40

and again, as a young child, that

41:42

if she did not witness to her worldly friends,

41:44

she was literally killing them is the

41:47

only way to avoid this violent fate of Armageddon

41:49

was by becoming a witness. This

41:52

is a concept known as blood guilt. Witnesses

41:55

who do not participate in the monthly preaching

41:57

activities meant to bring in new members

41:59

are confused. considered to be blood guilty,

42:01

as they are withholding life saving

42:03

information about the apocalypse from

42:06

their fellow humans. Yeah,

42:08

you're right. Whenever you're told, hey,

42:10

this is gonna, you're gonna save so many lives.

42:12

However many hours you get out there, however

42:14

many booklets you hand out, that's how many more

42:16

souls that you are saving for, you're

42:19

bringing glory to Jehovah, but you're actually doing

42:21

them a huge favor in saving their life. Because I was always

42:23

like, barf me to death, knocking on someone's door.

42:25

I could never. But if you've been indoctrinated

42:27

to be like, this is an emergency, their house

42:29

is on fire, you have to knock on the door and tell them

42:32

that the shit is going down, then yeah, you would

42:34

want to do it with a sense of urgency, especially a kid

42:37

who's like, all these, there's a bunch of kids

42:39

in the neighborhood, Billy, do you want to go play soccer

42:41

or do you want to go knock door to door and try to save lives?

42:44

It's like, well, soccer suddenly seems very frivolous.

42:47

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a huge

42:49

burden and unnecessary

42:52

stress. It's nothing any child should have

42:54

to day in and day out

42:56

from the time they wake up to the time they go

42:59

to sleep, see images, be

43:01

told the end is near,

43:03

your friends are going to be dead. I mean, how

43:06

is anyone supposed to not

43:09

develop extreme anxiety

43:12

from that, especially a kid?

43:14

I mean, that's like, that shapes your worldview

43:17

and your whole trajectory for adulthood.

43:20

Certainly, especially if it is dualistic

43:22

thinking that you're pushed into of like, you will

43:25

either be saved Jehovah's Witness, or

43:27

you will perish horribly. Like there's really

43:29

no room for gray area in this religion, you either

43:31

are in or you are disfellowshipped,

43:33

disassociated and shunned, you either are

43:36

this or that. And so putting that in a

43:38

kid's perspective, we that makes sense

43:40

in our Freaky Friday episode, you know, when people are saying,

43:42

I was having these what I thought were

43:45

I wasn't strong enough to control these urges,

43:47

when in reality, it's just like natural human things

43:49

to get to kind of horny. But you think, Oh,

43:51

I am either good or bad. And since I am

43:54

not good, because good people control their thoughts

43:56

and don't, you know, feel this sexual urges

43:58

or whatever, I'm therefore bad. And if

44:00

you're taught it is either good or die,

44:03

we are going to see that that tends to

44:07

Make people feel like there's

44:08

no other choices, unfortunately

44:12

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now. For

46:49

many JWs, the constant discussion

46:51

and images of an apocalyptic world

46:53

takes a serious toll on their mental health.

46:56

A particularly insidious result

46:58

of the isolationism practiced by witnesses

47:01

is the lack of access to mental health resources.

47:04

Although more recent public-facing literature

47:07

from the Watchtower mentions the importance

47:09

of

47:09

seeking professional help for

47:11

conditions like suicide and depression,

47:13

the message in the vast majority

47:15

of Watchtower literature and teachings

47:17

is clear.

47:18

Outsiders are apostates operating

47:21

in a world controlled by Satan

47:22

and all guidance should come from

47:24

Jehovah via Watchtower materials.

47:27

The material teaches witnesses

47:29

to control their thoughts to avoid falling

47:32

out of favor with God. To stop

47:34

these thoughts, witnesses should fill their minds

47:36

with either prayer or specific scripture.

47:38

This command is easy for the Watchtower

47:41

to write in its doctrine but impossible

47:43

to obey for witnesses dealing with

47:45

diagnosable mental health conditions that

47:47

cannot be treated through strong thinking

47:50

alone. And that's the hard thing is

47:52

you can say out of one side of your mouth yeah yeah go

47:54

go talk to a doctor if you need one but if

47:56

the and that's a couple of lines in

47:59

a another wise a fancy

48:01

guide on what to do if you feel like you want to die

48:03

or you feel depressed or whatever. And when you have,

48:06

you know, a little mention here and there in these

48:08

guides, but the overall message is anybody

48:10

that's not a JW is the devil talking

48:12

to you, then you've just

48:15

put me between a rock and a hard place. You've now just told me

48:17

to go talk to Satan himself and try to figure out

48:19

what's wrong with you.

48:20

Wow. I mean, it's a cover

48:23

your ass situation where it would

48:25

like to the public, we're saying this, but in

48:27

no way are we enforcing this

48:29

or let alone believe it. And also

48:32

if you're a teen and you're having

48:35

thoughts of suicidal

48:38

ideation and your whole family or JWs,

48:41

even if some little blurb on a website's

48:43

like, well, you can go talk to a doctor,

48:45

where's your support coming from? I

48:48

mean, who's going to drive you to that doctor's

48:50

appointment? You know what I mean? Who's going to help

48:52

you do that if everyone in your

48:54

life

48:56

believes, you know, well, you shouldn't,

48:58

you should just pray more. Really it's

49:00

your fault. You should just pray more. You're more

49:02

pioneer. Your kid kills himself because

49:05

nobody

49:06

would help them when they were screaming

49:08

for help. And a lot of parents

49:10

are like, well,

49:12

it was Jehovah's will and

49:14

that's fucking heartbreaking. That's

49:16

the part where you're right. Like as an adult

49:19

in the organization, if you're like, well, I don't know, maybe

49:21

you can, as a kid, at least walk to the

49:23

bus stop and get it, but you're right. The isolation

49:25

and the devastation of a kid. And that's the question

49:28

of, you know, religious freedom. When should we

49:30

as a society step in? And I think it's

49:32

when vulnerable people like children are at risk.

49:37

In the book Deliverance at Hand, author

49:39

and ex JW James Zimmerman recounts

49:41

the harrowing ordeal of his wife, Jennifer's

49:44

difficult delivery of their son.

49:46

In the days and months following her traumatic

49:48

birth experience, Jennifer found herself

49:51

overwhelmed with what was later recognized

49:53

to be post-traumatic stress disorder and

49:55

postpartum depression.

49:57

That experience, coupled with the constant message of her mother, was a

49:59

very important

49:59

of Armageddon from the Watchtower meetings.

50:02

That experience, coupled with the constant

50:05

messages of Armageddon from the Watchtower meetings,

50:07

caused extreme anxiety and suicidal

50:10

ideation in Jennifer.

50:11

She finally found solace and comfort

50:14

in online forums with other new moms.

50:16

But,

50:17

according to an elder at a meeting where

50:19

Jennifer found comfort online, Satan

50:22

was lurking. The couple was warned

50:24

to stay away from apostate websites, effectively

50:27

cutting Jennifer off from support. Though

50:30

she was eventually able to obtain outside

50:32

help from a licensed professional, many

50:35

witnesses do not. They describe

50:37

a worry that seeking mental health care can be

50:39

seen as

50:40

"...bringing reproach on Jehovah's organization."

50:44

Any admission of the Watchtower organization's

50:46

failures or its negative impact on

50:48

someone's mental health is tantamount

50:50

to blasphemy against Jehovah himself.

50:54

And that's the thing with Jennifer. She said when she first

50:56

went to the elders, it's like, well, you need to really

50:59

spend more time with the literature.

51:01

You need to dive back in. And she's like, what am I going to dive

51:03

into the literature that's saying all of the things

51:05

that are traumatizing me, which is that the world

51:07

is going to end? There's also questionable

51:10

takes on babies, like whether

51:12

babies would be saved or Jehovah would really

51:14

know their soul. And that's the problem with making

51:17

up proclamations of like, oh, we'll

51:19

have a paradise on earth and we won't have pain anymore.

51:21

And it's like, oh, well, I know,

51:24

but you won't know your old life. Well, how do

51:26

I know my family now? She

51:28

got so upset with the idea of

51:30

her son and being possibly

51:32

her son being destroyed in Armageddon

51:34

or the world, you know, having to survive

51:36

with her son that the internal response

51:39

was, oh, dive more into the literature. And

51:41

then finally, when she found this outside going,

51:43

people on the internet going, you know, you got to talk to

51:46

somebody. You might even need medication. And

51:48

that's okay. And

51:50

she said, yeah, I was so moved by the love of my son

51:52

that I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes because I want to

51:54

be around and I want him to be around. And

51:56

of course, the therapist first thing is like, maybe you

51:59

should lay off.

51:59

all the Armageddon stuff

52:00

and she's like, Oh, that's like three times a week

52:03

at meetings and all day every day and also on the weekends

52:05

and we volunteer and the therapist is like, you

52:07

do you I'm just saying it probably would

52:10

help if you stop looking at so much Armageddon stuff

52:12

and wouldn't you know, it did. Postpartum

52:16

is no joke. It is I had it

52:18

with both kids. It hit harder with Ella

52:21

because I wasn't expecting it as much.

52:23

So with Simon, I had my

52:25

meds and everything lined up ready to

52:27

go but the

52:30

it's not talked about a lot because there's a lot of shame

52:32

even though there shouldn't be because it is so

52:34

common. But the thoughts you

52:36

can have during that are already

52:39

so scary and overwhelming and you're

52:41

like, how could I possibly be thinking

52:44

these things? What's wrong with me? Oh my god,

52:46

like, I'm a monster. What I

52:48

shouldn't be a parent. And then it's like, no,

52:51

you just went through in Jennifer's

52:54

case or anybody's case. Giving

52:56

childbirth is it

52:58

like the hardest thing you can do?

53:00

It's exhausting. All

53:02

you want to do is sleep for days afterwards.

53:04

Instead, you have a newborn and

53:06

you have all these hormones raging through your

53:08

body. They're causing you to feel

53:11

and act and think all these ways

53:13

that can be very scary. And

53:15

then

53:17

they want you to just look

53:19

at like the worst imagery and hear

53:21

about the worst things imaginable. That's

53:24

just throwing gasoline on a fire. And

53:26

you're being discouraged from seeking outside

53:28

help. When

53:31

I'll be God damned if some

53:33

old white man is going to look at me and

53:36

tell me that instead of getting

53:38

help for what I'm experiencing

53:40

having just had a child, which you

53:43

cannot do, sir, tells

53:45

me to die further into my faith.

53:48

Go, go fuck yourself.

53:53

I'd be seriously the thought of look a mother

53:56

and her, her story is in deliverance at hand

53:58

and it's the thankfully the baby. was okay,

54:00

she ended up being okay. But it was a situation

54:02

where she had an idea of what she

54:04

wanted a birth plan and the hospital was

54:07

kind of not listening to her and she felt like

54:09

she had no agency over her body. And there were some

54:11

medical complications and then the cutting of the

54:13

umbilical cord. So you're right, something like that

54:15

that is so physically traumatic to be

54:17

told by a man that just

54:20

think you're not thinking strong enough.

54:24

How much strength it takes to create human

54:26

life from net from where was only your jizz

54:28

my man. Yeah,

54:31

all you did was have a good time. And then

54:33

I had to fucking carry

54:35

this baby it's hard

54:37

as fuck for 910 months.

54:40

And then now I'm even like

54:42

in a worse place mentally. Yeah,

54:44

I now physically have this

54:47

child that I love, hopefully

54:49

unconditionally. And Jennifer

54:51

made the choice that all parents should make.

54:53

And let's put your kids before some made

54:56

up religion. Yeah, and

54:58

you got to choose them. Because if you're going

55:01

to bring them into this world,

55:02

it's your responsibility to look after them

55:04

and keep them as safe as possible.

55:07

Yeah, and thankfully they were able to her parents

55:09

were kind of a little bit more out of it. His parents

55:11

were more into it, but they were able to her sister kind

55:14

of was this

55:16

is so not fully disassociated, but had kind of

55:18

faded. So she had a little bit of an easy

55:20

time. But I just can't imagine if you're pregnant,

55:23

your husband's not supportive, in your family,

55:25

it's not supportive. And you are completely and

55:27

wholly trapped. That is, yeah, that's the

55:30

true horror story. What happened to her was bad enough

55:32

that

55:32

the folks that came in and out.

55:33

Oh, yeah. And it often ends in the

55:36

worst possible way. Because if you're

55:39

a prisoner of your own mental health

55:41

struggles and are getting no

55:43

help and are being told like, in

55:45

fact, you shouldn't seek help, this is kind of

55:47

your fault, you just need to pray more. That's

55:50

not going to end well. I can't imagine 10

55:53

out of 10 times that's not gonna end well.

55:56

No, that that

55:57

read more and think better is

55:59

not.

55:59

the answer.

56:02

On the resource guide for suicidal thoughts

56:04

located in a public facing area of the Watchtower

56:07

website there is a strong emphasis

56:09

on leaning on Jehovah in Watchtower literature

56:12

in times of crisis. The site does

56:14

mention the importance of contacting an outside

56:16

professional, stating in a footnote, if your

56:19

suicidal thoughts are intense and

56:21

loved ones are unavailable, call the local

56:23

crisis hotline or emergency number. I don't

56:27

think you need to ever wait

56:31

if your loved ones are, even

56:34

if they're available, they might not be the ones

56:36

to talk to. This is what really got me is

56:38

the language written and I might be nitty

56:40

because I'm a lawyer and ifs and shalls

56:42

and musts and shoulds or are intense.

56:45

Bitch if you're having suicidal thoughts that's

56:47

intense. There's no like, I mean

56:50

there's a spectrum but it's

56:52

already intense. You're already having thoughts about killing

56:54

yourself. Right what this said to

56:56

me was if your thoughts aren't intense

56:59

and your loved ones available go talk to them. Don't

57:02

matter. Yeah yeah yeah. Or if your thoughts

57:04

are intense and you can talk to a loved one go do that.

57:06

But if both then you can call a crisis

57:08

center. But first Lina, I mean the amount of

57:11

reference to Jehovah was overwhelming versus

57:13

the top of the fucking article should just say if you're

57:15

having any thoughts or issues 988 the number,

57:18

call it, don't hesitate, don't wait, you

57:20

can get connected to help. This is buried

57:22

halfway down the page in a footnote and it's bullshit.

57:26

Someone reached out to us with

57:28

an interesting fact about 988 because they have

57:31

been a volunteer for

57:33

a suicide crisis line for 12 years

57:37

and if you are in another

57:39

state when

57:42

you call 988 you need to let

57:44

them know where you are because a lot of times it

57:46

will trace where

57:49

you are back to like

57:51

the zip code to where your phone

57:54

is registered. I see. So

57:56

even if you're like moved from California

58:00

988 in California, I might get pushed to Texas,

58:03

in which case I can just say, oh, actually, I've moved

58:05

to California. Or if you're traveling or something like

58:07

that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Just

58:10

let them know. However, material located

58:12

in the library meant for active witnesses

58:14

warns people not to turn from religion

58:17

to mental health treatment stating, but

58:19

is the turning of people from the clergy to

58:21

the psychiatrist, the healthy phenomenon? No,

58:25

for it really is a case of jumping from the

58:27

frying pan into the fire.

58:29

They are worse off than they

58:30

were before.

58:31

That psychiatrists are not the ones to go

58:33

to for help when one is depressed and beset

58:35

with all manner of problems is to be

58:38

seen from the fact that suicides among

58:40

them are twice as frequent as among the

58:42

population in general. I

58:45

need some sources cited for

58:47

these made up facts. Yeah,

58:49

I was just saying a lot of times their stuff. One

58:52

of them was just called, I can't remember the

58:54

name of it. It was like, science is a fraud.

58:57

It was just a cover story on one of them. I

58:59

was like, I don't know about it. I've

59:01

taken medication for depression

59:05

and anxiety since I was in my

59:07

early 20s. And

59:09

I'm going to tell you that I'd

59:12

be way worse off if I weren't taking those. Yeah.

59:16

And I mean, I hope even surreptitiously,

59:18

the folks that are in there are getting some

59:21

type of access to medical or mental

59:23

health medication if they wanted to, you know,

59:25

even if a woman going for an annual

59:27

exam saying it to a doctor or something like

59:29

that. So there aren't people that are just completely

59:32

told like, don't

59:33

worry about psychiatrists. You should just

59:35

talk to the clergy.

59:38

Citing the statistic is ironic

59:41

coming from the watchtower. A study

59:43

published by the British Journal of Psychiatry

59:46

surveyed a group of witnesses in Australia

59:48

and found that witnesses are more likely to be

59:50

admitted to a psychiatric hospital than

59:52

the general population. The findings

59:55

also suggested that followers of the watchtower

59:58

are three times

59:58

more likely to be diagnosed as

1:00:00

suffering from schizophrenia and nearly

1:00:03

four times more likely to be diagnosed

1:00:05

with paranoid schizophrenia

1:00:06

than the rest of the population at risk. The

1:00:09

Colt Education Institute published

1:00:11

a survey of medical studies of witnesses

1:00:14

that found,

1:00:15

All past studies demonstrate the level of

1:00:17

mental illness is well above that of the population.

1:00:20

And the British Journal made a

1:00:22

point at the end of like, do the findings,

1:00:25

it says the further studies would be interested to see if

1:00:27

the findings indicate that pre-psychotic

1:00:29

people are more likely to join the sex because

1:00:32

they're interested in Armageddon type of thing. Or

1:00:34

if the membership itself brings about

1:00:37

a breakdown, like maybe people were like, could

1:00:39

have been predisposed to it, but based on

1:00:41

repeated exposure to things like the Armageddon

1:00:44

thinking and whatnot, could push them

1:00:46

over the edge when they weren't going to already.

1:00:48

It's a which came first, chicken

1:00:51

or the egg situation. And there's probably

1:00:54

a bit from column A and a bit from

1:00:56

column B.

1:00:57

Right.

1:00:59

Witnesses suffering from delusions are

1:01:01

particularly at risk in an organization

1:01:03

full of graphic apocalyptic imagery

1:01:06

and a message that Satan is attempting to infiltrate

1:01:08

every aspect of their lives. The

1:01:11

indoctrinated doomsday beliefs not

1:01:13

only lead to suicide, but in some cases

1:01:15

can also lead to murder. A

1:01:18

former witness named Lauren Stewart killed

1:01:20

her husband and two adult children before

1:01:23

completing suicide

1:01:23

in Michigan in 2018.

1:01:26

The family had been out of the faith for a decade

1:01:29

after they were ostracized for the decision

1:01:31

to allow their two children to attend college.

1:01:33

Even after being shunned, friends

1:01:36

told the Detroit Free Press that

1:01:38

Lauren couldn't shake some of the group's more

1:01:40

extreme beliefs,

1:01:41

describing her as

1:01:43

physically out, but mentally in.

1:01:46

Lauren was fixated on the end days, saying

1:01:49

to a friend just six weeks before the murders.

1:01:51

It's the end times I know it is. In

1:01:54

the note she left behind, Lauren parroted

1:01:56

the JW belief that if someone dies

1:01:59

on this side of our mind, They will be resurrected

1:02:01

in paradise. A friend told

1:02:03

the Free Press.

1:02:05

Lauren

1:02:05

said in the suicide note that she felt

1:02:07

that by killing them, it was the only way

1:02:09

to save them. She said she's sorry that

1:02:11

she has to do this, but it was the only way to save

1:02:13

them all. That same friend

1:02:15

told the Free Press that she believes the

1:02:18

indoctrinated doomsday fears, coupled

1:02:20

with the shunning, helped cause this tragedy.

1:02:25

I mean, that's a worst case

1:02:27

scenario. This

1:02:30

is a heartbreaking case

1:02:32

to read about.

1:02:33

Both of these children were in their early 20s. They

1:02:36

were bright. They wanted to

1:02:38

send them to college because they were so smart

1:02:40

and excelled in computers. And

1:02:42

one of them, I believe, was in design

1:02:45

of some sort. And they were both attending

1:02:48

college and succeeding, and the

1:02:52

shunning that they got because

1:02:55

of that decision to help their children

1:02:58

better their lives. To go to college. To

1:03:00

go to college. To learn. To gain more

1:03:02

knowledge. To help others. Right. They're

1:03:06

ostracized from everything they want to know. They

1:03:08

lose their friends and family.

1:03:10

And this woman, struggling

1:03:13

clearly with mental health problems that she

1:03:16

wasn't getting treated for,

1:03:19

thought she was doing what she

1:03:21

needed to do to save her family. And

1:03:23

at the same time, because Jehovah

1:03:26

does not condone suicide, as we learned in

1:03:28

episode one,

1:03:29

she is sacrificing

1:03:31

herself in a way to her, at least.

1:03:34

Right.

1:03:35

Right. Or has justified it somehow in her

1:03:37

mind, but you're right. That's

1:03:40

the ultimate mark, I suppose. They

1:03:45

said, JW's turn

1:03:49

on, we've seen elders turn

1:03:51

on

1:03:52

congregate members who

1:03:53

have died by suicide in such a negative

1:03:55

and nasty way to be like, well, they made the ultimate.

1:03:58

When you have been told, sort of, what

1:04:00

she parroted in her suicide note of, that's

1:04:02

the only way to save my family. I have to save them.

1:04:04

I have to save them. We're not practicing witnesses anymore.

1:04:06

The only way to save them is to kill them. To

1:04:08

be told that black and white thinking, the dichotomy

1:04:11

of you are either a witness and you're going to be

1:04:13

in a paradise on earth

1:04:16

or you're going to be destroyed in this

1:04:18

Armageddon. Well, I better get ahead of it

1:04:20

and try to save us. Yeah.

1:04:22

I mean, you're setting everybody up for

1:04:25

failure when the

1:04:28

ultimate answer at the

1:04:30

top is just, well, you got to pray

1:04:32

more. Right. Well, I'm

1:04:35

praying from dusk till

1:04:38

dawn and I'm still having these

1:04:40

thoughts that I need to kill

1:04:43

my family and then myself in order to

1:04:45

make right

1:04:47

with Jehovah. Well,

1:04:50

I mean, what's

1:04:52

the

1:04:53

course that's going to happen? There's no one

1:04:55

that's, there's no support system. There's no one

1:04:57

trying to help. There's no

1:05:00

one following up. There needs to be

1:05:02

an organization and perhaps there

1:05:05

is, I'm sure there is

1:05:07

where when people leave the, the

1:05:11

organization, they

1:05:13

almost have like a social worker that

1:05:17

like checks in with them

1:05:19

regularly to see like, how are you

1:05:21

doing to help? I mean, when you're

1:05:23

transitioning from like being on

1:05:25

house to a, a

1:05:28

section eight housing situation, there

1:05:31

is a social worker that helps transition you

1:05:33

with that and gives you resources and stuff. This

1:05:36

seems like it should be the same thing because

1:05:38

these people are just thrown

1:05:40

to the wolves and just

1:05:43

the door shut and they're never thought

1:05:45

of or talked about again. Right.

1:05:47

It's like, well, you're out, you're shunned and

1:05:50

good luck with everything. And at the pre-internet,

1:05:53

I'm sure was much, much worse because

1:05:55

you would have to rely on, in

1:05:58

his book, James Zimmerman and his wife, they

1:06:00

say had saved the email addresses of a couple

1:06:02

people that they had previously shunned

1:06:05

and reached out and said, Hey, now we're getting shunned.

1:06:07

And there, and guess what the two shunned

1:06:09

people did, they said, let's all go to dinner together. And

1:06:11

they all sat around. And they met each other's families,

1:06:14

you know, they've some gotten married since they've seen each other.

1:06:16

So it's again, that interesting thing that all

1:06:18

the ones that leave seem to be the really kind

1:06:20

hearted ones that give a shit about equity, justice

1:06:23

and caring. And so before the internet, I'm sure

1:06:25

it was much, much worse. Thank God, at least for xjw

1:06:28

jw fact, all those types of websites where people

1:06:30

can Google and at least even

1:06:33

if they have questions, you know, some of these so

1:06:35

called horrible apostate websites come up,

1:06:37

but

1:06:37

some sort of a landing pad of like, does anybody

1:06:40

even know

1:06:41

what to do for I don't even know how to apply for

1:06:43

an apartment on my own or I don't even know how to do stuff like

1:06:45

that. I mean, that's what I mean, like things

1:06:48

that most of us take for granted.

1:06:51

If you've grown up in this bubble, is

1:06:55

what if you're like 18, you're like, I've never

1:06:57

had a job, I don't know how to

1:06:59

drive. I think I'm supposed

1:07:01

to register to vote, but I've never been like,

1:07:04

we're told not to. So I mean, you're

1:07:09

you're like, like we had in the freaky

1:07:11

Friday, it's like you're an alien dropped on another planet.

1:07:13

You don't know even how like the basic

1:07:15

things to do. We had I

1:07:19

saw a comment somewhere from

1:07:22

someone that was like listening to this episode,

1:07:24

I remember working with a guy that was like 19.

1:07:27

It was a jw. And he

1:07:29

said, it was really

1:07:31

sad, because the

1:07:34

kid had no understanding

1:07:36

of social norms, you

1:07:39

know, even like pop culture. So he

1:07:42

would like he couldn't relate

1:07:44

to any of the other co workers, they

1:07:46

kind of thought he was weird. And so

1:07:48

you isolate them even more because

1:07:52

and it's like, yeah, you you you

1:07:54

don't know you're like friends, Seinfeld

1:07:57

the office what like, you know what I mean? Like,

1:07:59

You can't relate to anybody

1:08:02

that wasn't also a JW,

1:08:05

but you're trying to not still be with that.

1:08:08

So it's

1:08:09

like you need a class afterwards. So

1:08:13

you left

1:08:14

the witnesses, now what? And then

1:08:16

it's like, this is what you do. Here's a checklist,

1:08:18

here are resources of what you can do. Maybe

1:08:21

we'll put something together like that with the

1:08:23

help of others. Right. Well, I think

1:08:25

that's what actually Fearless Dallas, the organization I'm

1:08:27

on the board of is for that for

1:08:29

young women coming out of foster homes. Foster

1:08:32

if you've aged out and it's just the

1:08:35

founder just got dropped out at college and it

1:08:38

was like, all right, go ahead, figure it out. And you're like,

1:08:40

well, I don't know any of that. So maybe

1:08:43

there should be a nonprofit that's ex-JW

1:08:46

run and

1:08:47

can be that landing pad for everybody

1:08:49

beyond just the internet,

1:08:51

which is already great. And if there is,

1:08:53

please let us know because- Shout it. We'll

1:08:56

definitely talk about it.

1:08:59

Sinister Hood will be right back.

1:09:02

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apply.

1:09:18

A 2022 study in the journal Pastoral

1:09:21

Psychology analyzed Lauren's

1:09:23

case. In some of her last videos

1:09:26

posted online,

1:09:27

Lauren discussed the need to protect

1:09:28

her family from Armageddon. This

1:09:30

need to control the immortality of

1:09:32

the family was a key motive in a

1:09:35

survey of familicide across

1:09:36

perpetrators of all faiths.

1:09:39

Sadly, Lauren's case is not isolated.

1:09:41

The study also mentioned other JW

1:09:43

families subjected to the devastation

1:09:46

of familicide, including the Miller family

1:09:48

from South Carolina, the Longo family

1:09:51

from Michigan, and the Bryant family

1:09:52

from Oregon.

1:09:54

interested

1:10:00

in the dynamic, the

1:10:02

interplay between psychology and

1:10:05

specifically JW faith, and how

1:10:08

it relates to other cases of it. But it sort

1:10:10

of shows that like, the teachings

1:10:13

of the watchtower make people

1:10:15

particularly predisposed for mental illness,

1:10:17

because or for at least just mental health

1:10:20

problems that are can

1:10:22

be situational in many cases and can be alleviated

1:10:25

by extricating yourself from them. Medically

1:10:29

recognized mental health disorders are not

1:10:31

the only thing JW's encouraged

1:10:34

to pray away. Witnesses

1:10:36

not only believe that homosexuality is

1:10:38

a sin, but also a mental illness.

1:10:41

Adam Van Worden told ABC's

1:10:43

Four Corners that he knew from a young

1:10:46

age he was gay,

1:10:47

something he grappled with having been born into

1:10:49

the cult.

1:10:50

From an early age I knew I was gay, but I just

1:10:53

never expressed it. The hostility

1:10:54

and the congregations for gay people

1:10:57

is

1:10:58

quite extreme. After

1:11:00

decades of not being accepted for his true

1:11:02

self, Adam left the JW's in 2019,

1:11:04

telling interviewers, It

1:11:07

has a massive effect when forever you're told

1:11:09

that you can pray the gay away and you can make

1:11:11

a big effort and with God's blessing you

1:11:13

can become straight basically. Well

1:11:16

that's not how it works and I think we

1:11:19

all know that and to be told that,

1:11:21

it doesn't ever

1:11:24

lead to anywhere good. No, and

1:11:26

the language they often use is lifestyle.

1:11:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The

1:11:31

sexual lifestyle.

1:11:33

Which implies it's a choice and

1:11:35

it's also, to me a lifestyle is like

1:11:37

I like to vacation in Hamptons during the summer.

1:11:40

You know, I mean that's like a lifestyle.

1:11:43

I prefer yachts, but

1:11:46

your sexuality

1:11:49

is not a lifestyle. No, not at all,

1:11:51

but they do. I mean, literally there's just

1:11:53

a young people ask, which we heard in

1:11:55

the Freaky Friday from an ex

1:11:57

JW is kind of a place that you go for. for

1:12:00

answers when you're younger. And they just literally

1:12:02

have a young people ask, is homosexuality

1:12:04

wrong? And it just keeps asking, oh,

1:12:07

well, so can you change? And

1:12:09

it says, oh yes, you can change.

1:12:12

In fact, here's some Bible verses. And

1:12:14

it's like, you're

1:12:15

just taking these out of context.

1:12:18

Also, you're wrong.

1:12:19

Like, just

1:12:22

reading this over and over is not going

1:12:24

to change something that you were,

1:12:26

that that's how you were born. You

1:12:28

know what I mean? I can't pray

1:12:31

for red hair as

1:12:33

much as I want. I'm not going to get red hair.

1:12:36

Not that I want red hair. I'm just using that as an

1:12:38

example. You know what I mean? It's an inherent trait

1:12:40

to yourself of who you love and what you're predisposed

1:12:44

to find attractive, to be attracted to, certainly.

1:12:46

But yeah, I mean, it gives a hypothetical, you're

1:12:48

right in this. Young people ask, and it's like,

1:12:51

David asks his parents, and what do

1:12:53

I do? Because I'm having homosexual urges.

1:12:55

No teenager and their life's over said that. But

1:12:58

you know what I mean? I'm feeling away,

1:13:00

but this fake back and forth,

1:13:03

David's parents encourage him that he won't

1:13:05

stop having the fleshly desires,

1:13:07

but he just must have the

1:13:09

strength to resist those desires,

1:13:12

and that we will all be happier if we simply

1:13:14

conform to the standards, and that

1:13:17

is

1:13:17

just flat wrong. Yeah,

1:13:20

the heteronormative standards that

1:13:23

we're comfortable with. The other,

1:13:26

like the animated video of

1:13:28

the little girl coming home from

1:13:31

school and telling her mom, today

1:13:34

at school, we all drew pictures of

1:13:36

our families, and Jenny drew

1:13:39

two moms because she has

1:13:40

two moms, and our teacher

1:13:42

said that sometimes women

1:13:44

marry other women, and that's okay, because they're

1:13:46

in love, and then everyone should be able to marry

1:13:49

who they want.

1:13:50

What do you think, mom? And then the mom's

1:13:52

like, well, everyone's

1:13:55

entitled to their own opinion, but the only one

1:13:57

that matters is what Jehovah thinks, and then

1:13:59

she pulls out the book.

1:13:59

Bible and they open up and read it together.

1:14:02

So that's the message these kids

1:14:04

are given is like,

1:14:06

yeah,

1:14:07

maybe that's what other people think, but not

1:14:09

us. And it's very wrong. And little

1:14:11

Jenny is going to die with urine

1:14:14

up to her neck because she's got two lesbian

1:14:16

moms. Yeah, Jenny and her moms are going

1:14:18

to drown in the piss

1:14:19

storm that God is bringing for us.

1:14:21

Yeah, it's rude. I mean, it is

1:14:23

ridiculous to

1:14:26

think that it's all about the strength

1:14:28

of mind. It's just the strength of mind.

1:14:31

Strength of mind is not going to stop me from, you

1:14:34

know, having the

1:14:35

looking at what I want to look at. And also,

1:14:38

you shouldn't have to

1:14:40

do that. You know what I mean? Like, if that's

1:14:42

what you want to do, they're

1:14:44

telling you,

1:14:46

you can't be yourself, because yourself

1:14:48

is a sin. So you need

1:14:50

to change yourself in make yourself

1:14:53

into the image that Jehovah intended,

1:14:55

because otherwise, you're

1:14:57

done though. And

1:14:59

I mean, that's an impossible feat, because

1:15:01

it's just not something that can ever happen.

1:15:04

So now you've set this kid up for

1:15:08

most likely taking their own life, you

1:15:10

know, unless they can somehow get out

1:15:12

and we've seen

1:15:13

from many that that is possible. So

1:15:16

it is possible to get out and live your best

1:15:18

life and your true authentic self.

1:15:21

But it takes so much to do that. And

1:15:23

you lose so much also doing that. And

1:15:25

you're right. Absolutely. To

1:15:28

put it in terms of being

1:15:30

gay, displeases Jehovah, we must

1:15:33

live to please Jehovah me

1:15:35

living I am gay period, I'm going

1:15:37

to be that forever. That's just how I was born.

1:15:40

Therefore, by not by

1:15:42

being by virtue of who I am fundamentally,

1:15:44

I will never please Jehovah. I

1:15:47

have to kill myself. Like you can just see, obviously,

1:15:50

that's not true. This is Jehovah

1:15:52

the way they made it is fake. It's not a real person.

1:15:54

Everything they wrote is fake and a lie and is made up. I

1:15:56

will go on record and saying that you know what I mean?

1:15:58

So it's yeah twist manipulation,

1:16:01

but you can see that that thinking again, that

1:16:03

dualistic black and white thinking, I am the

1:16:06

opposite of that. Therefore, I must be no more. Yeah.

1:16:08

And it's, it's so sad. It's,

1:16:12

it's very, very sad. And you

1:16:14

know, I mean, I think

1:16:15

the same concept in a different

1:16:18

way can be applied to Lauren

1:16:21

and other people that feel like killing

1:16:23

their whole family and then themselves is the only

1:16:25

solution when it's never the

1:16:28

solution. And suicide is never

1:16:30

the solution. But when you are

1:16:33

in the depths of your own mental

1:16:35

prison with no help,

1:16:38

many times that feels like it is the only

1:16:41

way out.

1:16:41

And then that's the, the response is,

1:16:44

oh, you should just be stronger so you can see how vulnerable

1:16:46

people lose their lives.

1:16:49

Stephen Kemp was a lifelong JW

1:16:51

when he came out to his family is gay in his

1:16:54

twenties.

1:16:55

In response, his entire family,

1:16:57

parents, siblings, extended family,

1:16:59

and all, ceased contact with him

1:17:02

and treated Stephen as they were told

1:17:04

by the Watchtower organization as

1:17:06

if he were dead. Stephen's

1:17:08

sister, Brandy Schmeidl, eventually

1:17:10

went against church practice and reached out

1:17:12

to her brother. They were able to rekindle

1:17:15

their relationship and begin speaking again.

1:17:17

But the isolation had been too much

1:17:19

for Stephen. He completed suicide.

1:17:22

Stephen left a note demanding no reference

1:17:25

to JW's or religion upon his

1:17:27

passing,

1:17:28

calling it

1:17:29

the source of where this all began.

1:17:32

Stephen's uncle, Stephen Lett, is

1:17:34

a current member of the governing body. Just

1:17:37

months after his nephew's suicide, Lett

1:17:39

made reference to an unrepentant

1:17:42

homosexual in a speech on

1:17:44

the apocalypse. Stephen's sister,

1:17:46

Brandy, was disgusted that Lett

1:17:48

would bring up her brother who had been shunned.

1:17:51

She is calling for an end to the practice of shunning,

1:17:54

deeming it

1:17:55

inhumane.

1:17:56

Through her advocacy, Brandy has had hundreds

1:17:58

of dollars

1:17:59

in the book.

1:17:59

if not thousands of other JWs

1:18:02

who were impacted by suicide or attempted

1:18:05

suicide as a result of shunning reach

1:18:07

out to her and share their stories. And

1:18:10

she's a fierce advocate. She says,

1:18:12

you know, I've got a lot to lose speaking

1:18:14

out this way. But the JWs ruin

1:18:16

my brother's I mean, they took my brother's life.

1:18:18

And if I can save one

1:18:20

person than any, you know, retribution,

1:18:23

anything I suffer is worth it. And

1:18:25

I'm sure you feel powerless like you

1:18:28

and have a lot of regret. And you think if I could

1:18:30

save one life, at least maybe his won't

1:18:32

wouldn't have been lost in vain. And

1:18:35

for your uncle to

1:18:37

be a member of the governing body

1:18:40

and use that against you as

1:18:43

a as a

1:18:44

bullet point in his sermon

1:18:47

to his his congregation as

1:18:49

an example of what

1:18:51

not to do. Yeah, is

1:18:54

a level of cognitive

1:18:57

dissonance that I could never

1:19:00

understand. And I

1:19:02

it's, I wish it didn't even

1:19:04

exist. But

1:19:06

someone like that is

1:19:08

not human. They can't

1:19:11

have no empathy

1:19:13

and compassion for your fellow

1:19:15

humans when they're suffering.

1:19:18

I don't understand

1:19:19

how, especially when it's your

1:19:22

own blood relative that you can

1:19:24

look at it like that. It's it's evil.

1:19:27

It's so evil to like you said, be able

1:19:29

to put yourself

1:19:32

because as a governing body member, he's

1:19:34

got a lot to lose, you know, putting your own self

1:19:36

interest over something like

1:19:39

that of the safety, well

1:19:41

being health of your family member that you

1:19:43

love. I think it's also

1:19:45

a way for

1:19:49

people to not have to deal with grief,

1:19:52

or things that make

1:19:54

them uncomfortable because if you're always

1:19:56

well, it's whatever Jehovah

1:19:59

thinks you don't have to. think and feel for yourself

1:20:01

because you're just living to serve

1:20:03

someone else instead of living

1:20:05

to

1:20:06

serve your own self.

1:20:09

Yeah, and your fellow humans. How

1:20:11

can I be better to help other more people,

1:20:14

not how can I serve

1:20:16

an imaginary thing in the works

1:20:18

on earth really is just to avoid this horrible fate.

1:20:23

Terri O'Sullivan, another former JW

1:20:25

who now helps those who have left, told

1:20:28

the BBC she is yet to find

1:20:30

a former JW who has not

1:20:32

experienced depression, alcoholism,

1:20:35

suicidal feelings, or self-harm.

1:20:38

The practice of shunning continues to this

1:20:40

day with one currently available

1:20:42

video titled Loyally Uphold

1:20:44

Jehovah's Judgments that

1:20:46

instructs parents to

1:20:48

Remain loyal to Jehovah

1:20:50

by avoiding all association with

1:20:52

estranged family members and children, even

1:20:55

small doses like texts

1:20:58

and calls. And that's the thing about

1:21:00

this organization. I'll say it again. It shouldn't

1:21:02

shock anybody. They're full of shit and they're liars because

1:21:05

they will say, well, we don't tell people

1:21:07

to shun their families. Yeah, you

1:21:09

did seven different ways. It's written.

1:21:12

It's in lectures. It's in videos. It's

1:21:14

in like, yes, you do. It's not even hidden. Like you don't

1:21:16

have to dig for it. You can literally just

1:21:18

go to like JW.org and

1:21:21

it's all over the place. So

1:21:23

it's insulting as an apostate,

1:21:25

quite frankly, for you to think

1:21:27

that like, we don't, we

1:21:30

don't see you for who you really are. And

1:21:32

that's Stephen Lett. He'll go, apostate

1:21:34

websites

1:21:35

will make up lies

1:21:37

because they don't have time to look

1:21:39

into the reading in the words of

1:21:41

Jehovah. Bitch, I read so many pages.

1:21:44

I read so many pages. Yeah, you

1:21:46

lie. You straight up lie. You straight up

1:21:48

lie. And also your logic

1:21:51

isn't logical. Nothing you say makes sense.

1:21:53

You talk in circles just to confuse people.

1:21:56

You're like a politician, except even

1:21:58

worse, which is fucking hard to. to do

1:22:00

so god damn. Congrats.

1:22:03

Congrats on that Steven Let. You

1:22:05

won the race to the bottom.

1:22:08

Children born into Jehovah's Witnesses

1:22:10

are not fully members until being baptized.

1:22:14

On its website, the Watchtower states, you

1:22:16

young would should understand that neither your

1:22:18

parents nor the Christian elders in

1:22:21

the congregation are going to force you to get

1:22:23

baptized. The desire to serve

1:22:25

Jehovah must come from you. However,

1:22:27

XJWs

1:22:29

have different stories. One XJW

1:22:32

wrote online that their parents withheld the

1:22:34

ability to get a driver's license until

1:22:36

the teen agreed to be baptized. Footage

1:22:39

of former Governing Body member Anthony

1:22:41

Morris III seems to support

1:22:43

this, offering a challenge for parents

1:22:46

to give their unbaptized teens yearning

1:22:48

for a car.

1:22:49

Oh, I know how to handle a car when I'm 16,

1:22:52

but you can't dedicate your life and get baptized,

1:22:54

huh?

1:22:56

Okay,

1:22:58

let's just break this down. The desire to serve

1:23:00

Jehovah must come from you. Well,

1:23:03

when you're giving an ultimatum, it's

1:23:05

not coming from you. It's coming because you

1:23:07

want to get your driver's license so you

1:23:09

can get some fucking freedom that

1:23:12

you have been not allowed to have for 16

1:23:14

years. Right. And another

1:23:16

perspective I've also seen where, oh,

1:23:19

I got baptized when I was 10 because

1:23:21

I knew it would make my parents so happy.

1:23:23

They said to me, Oh my God, Christy

1:23:25

got baptized. And did you see how happy her parents

1:23:28

were? Boy, Heather, it'd be really nice. But

1:23:30

it's your choice, obviously. It's your choice. And you're

1:23:32

a 10 year old and you're like, fuck it, I'll

1:23:34

get baptized. I've gotten baptized

1:23:36

for a lot less than just making my parents

1:23:39

happy. In fact, it was a cake from Walmart

1:23:41

and admission to the Mesquite Aquatic Center, where

1:23:44

I was baptized at the end of the

1:23:45

slide by Pastor Charlie Brown. But

1:23:48

you know what I mean? That entire thing

1:23:50

you just said sounds like a fever dream.

1:23:53

But I know it's 100% true. And

1:23:56

that is how you get somebody baptized. Kate,

1:23:59

slide, shoulder. Charlie Brown, maybe

1:24:01

he dresses up like Charlie Brown. That can be fun,

1:24:03

you really lean into that. But

1:24:05

you're using things that,

1:24:07

you know your kids want, I mean, it's just

1:24:10

sad. All this,

1:24:12

I've

1:24:13

told you offline into Tommy,

1:24:15

like I've just like walked into rooms multiple

1:24:18

times over the past week and been like sobbing

1:24:21

and like, can I just have a hug? Because

1:24:24

I, it's things with

1:24:26

kids really, really, really get to me.

1:24:29

And

1:24:30

to know just like how much pain

1:24:34

all of these kids have gone through and

1:24:37

all of the emails we get, they're just,

1:24:40

everyone was hurting so bad and still

1:24:43

hurts. But

1:24:45

they're on the other side

1:24:47

of it and getting help, but they all just

1:24:49

talk about how lonely

1:24:52

and sad they felt. And

1:24:54

I mean, if I knew that

1:24:57

my kids were feeling that way, I

1:24:59

would do anything in my power to take that

1:25:01

from them. And instead these parents

1:25:04

are turning

1:25:04

their cheek

1:25:06

and choosing

1:25:08

a

1:25:08

made up segment

1:25:11

of their imagination to follow

1:25:13

instead of caring for the

1:25:16

flesh

1:25:16

and blood that's right in front of you.

1:25:19

Yeah, and that's, you're right, that's a

1:25:21

hard, it's hard for the kids

1:25:24

as they are experiencing it

1:25:26

because they don't even have the words to explain

1:25:28

how badly they feel. Whether it is, oh, I'm

1:25:32

diving headfirst into this because mother

1:25:34

and father, it makes them happy and I can be a

1:25:36

better kid or, well, if I don't

1:25:38

do it, then the alternative, it's a carrot or a stick,

1:25:40

whatever. But like, you're

1:25:43

right then as they get older to

1:25:45

look back and be like, there's words for how

1:25:47

isolated I felt and

1:25:48

how sad I felt. And

1:25:51

the anger that you have to reconcile

1:25:53

from your family members or whatever, who

1:25:56

saw that going on and didn't do

1:25:58

anything to step in or help. And

1:26:01

this feeling of your own parent, one

1:26:03

of the, Asher was their name, one of the, um, XJWs

1:26:07

in the vice versa documentary said,

1:26:09

you know, his parent, his mother

1:26:11

got sick and his grandmother made this choice

1:26:14

to not get a blood transfusion

1:26:16

and killed her and stuff. And he said, when I saw

1:26:19

that, I was like, Oh shit, they're serious

1:26:21

about this, that my grandmother just killed my

1:26:23

mom in front of me for

1:26:25

how serious this is. And I was like, I'm

1:26:27

on my own. So it's like, then, so

1:26:29

then as a kid, you learn whether it's, you know, cause Asher's

1:26:32

mom was really young when she got

1:26:34

pregnant with them. And so, you know, it was kind of like the grandma

1:26:36

kind of raised him and stuff. But when you're your central

1:26:38

parent figure, you've seen them say, I

1:26:41

choose this made up religion. I choose this

1:26:43

organization. I choose these old men that

1:26:45

we go see once a week. I choose them

1:26:48

over you that the feeling, I

1:26:50

just want to say to anybody that grew up in that, I'm so

1:26:52

sorry that you were felt like that. Cause I, I, you

1:26:54

hear it in Asher's voice of like, why wasn't I enough?

1:26:56

Why didn't my mom pick me? Why didn't my grandma pick

1:26:59

me? And it has nothing to do with you. It's just

1:27:01

like, they got sold a bill of goods and they got

1:27:03

roped into something and prayed

1:27:05

on for whatever reason. That's what I, the

1:27:07

real insidious part is the people that are

1:27:10

so delusional with it. And that's what Asher's

1:27:12

grandmother seemed like. Well, no, your

1:27:14

mother wanted to die. She loved it. She, that's what

1:27:16

she wanted. She, she was happy to do

1:27:18

it, but to feel like I'm not even worthy

1:27:21

that my parents would pick me over whatever

1:27:23

this bullshit is has got a, it's

1:27:25

got a sting. Oh yeah. And I mean,

1:27:27

we, in the

1:27:28

most recent Freaky Friday, there were several people

1:27:31

that.

1:27:32

Now have kids and talk about like now

1:27:34

that I have my own kids, it's

1:27:37

kind of, you see your own pain through

1:27:39

a new lens. Yeah. Because like,

1:27:42

this is how I felt at that age. I

1:27:44

can't imagine my own kid feeling,

1:27:47

having to sit in the hallway while

1:27:49

all the kids saying happy birthday, and

1:27:51

you're just sitting there staring at your little hands

1:27:54

in your little lap, you know, not

1:27:56

able to participate in anything. And

1:27:59

as the parents. through that as when

1:28:02

from the perspective as a child you're like oh mother

1:28:04

and father couldn't help me This is just Jehovah's

1:28:06

will and isn't this so hard But then once

1:28:09

that child grows up has a kid of their own that's

1:28:11

being isolated They realize I'm empowered

1:28:13

to fucking do something and the easiest thing

1:28:15

is get the hell out of here Are we gonna lose friends?

1:28:17

Is it gonna be hard is it gonna be but get

1:28:20

the hell out and save that kid?

1:28:22

And I think you're right It's that generation of those

1:28:24

that have been born into it that now

1:28:27

have gotten older and gone no No,

1:28:29

no, no, no, no not not on my watch

1:28:31

that happened to me. It's not happened to my kid It

1:28:34

can be likened to any abusive

1:28:37

relationship, you know, I mean if

1:28:40

if all of this we were talking about

1:28:43

a Abusive

1:28:47

father and husband

1:28:49

No one would question like yeah, you should leave

1:28:51

you should get out yet But when it's under the guise

1:28:53

of religion suddenly people

1:28:55

think about it differently Well, you know, no,

1:28:58

it's still abuse It's just wrapped

1:29:01

in a different

1:29:01

package

1:29:02

the men that are abusing you or just living in upstate

1:29:04

New York and there's nine of them No, yeah, and they don't live

1:29:07

in your house May I put it out

1:29:09

there to any if you're physically

1:29:11

in but mentally out and you're listening to this Safely

1:29:14

and you can contact us safely or if somebody just

1:29:16

you happen to know the drama with governing

1:29:18

body member Anthony Morris the third Because

1:29:22

I just said there's nine governing body members They added

1:29:24

one and it's been said that they added an extra

1:29:26

member in order to vote him out because

1:29:29

of some unknown drama but if there's any

1:29:32

X JWs or current ones that know

1:29:34

what's going on with that governing body member because

1:29:37

it's wild to have a Person who's supposedly

1:29:39

anointed by God all of a sudden six

1:29:41

or eight months ago like has to quit his job Yeah,

1:29:44

if you know the drama to

1:29:46

get kicked out as an elder this

1:29:48

guy be pretty serious There's a governing

1:29:50

body member chosen by God. Yeah, I mean

1:29:52

he was in charge of Bethel his this face

1:29:55

is all over all the videos He wrote a

1:29:57

bunch of lectures. I mean he is he's the one that

1:29:59

said don't give him

1:29:59

car until they get baptized? I mean, he

1:30:02

was up there and then all of a sudden he's like quietly sort

1:30:04

of left and is being erased from the

1:30:06

website. But back to your point of if it

1:30:08

was an abusive family, if an abusive

1:30:11

husband or father or whatever, why do we allow

1:30:13

it then if it's some rando in New York

1:30:16

who has been quote unquote anointed by God

1:30:18

and apparently can be unanointed if he's

1:30:20

upset someone. The

1:30:23

choice whether to be baptized has lasting

1:30:25

consequences. If a baptized JW

1:30:28

exits the faith is mandated that

1:30:30

their family discontinue association

1:30:32

with them, treating them as if they were dead.

1:30:35

If they're not baptized and choose to leave,

1:30:37

it is then up to the family whether to shun the

1:30:39

ex JW with some

1:30:41

more staunch adherence choosing to cut

1:30:43

off contact entirely.

1:30:45

And this can apparently be a loophole if you're like,

1:30:47

I'm kind of growing up in it, but I think I want to leave, but

1:30:49

I don't want to lose my family. Just

1:30:51

slow

1:30:52

roll the baptism as long as possible. Yeah.

1:30:54

And we've seen that and also

1:30:56

kind of like, well, just fade off into the distance.

1:30:58

You don't have to announce you're

1:30:59

leaving it because that

1:31:02

way your family also doesn't have to announce

1:31:04

that they're going to disown you.

1:31:08

Sinisterhood will be right back.

1:31:11

We made USAA

1:31:13

insurance to help you save. Take

1:31:16

advantage of discounts when you cover your home

1:31:18

and your ride. Discover how we're

1:31:21

helping members save at usaa.com

1:31:23

slash bundles. Restrictions

1:31:26

apply.

1:31:28

Watchtower literature may claim the

1:31:30

young ones are not forced to be baptized, but

1:31:33

the stark reality is that many children in

1:31:35

the Watchtower organization are forced

1:31:37

to do much,

1:31:38

much worse.

1:31:40

While that same literature also claims

1:31:42

the outside world is evil, the rampant

1:31:44

sexual abuse, systematic coverups,

1:31:47

and ongoing criminal investigations point

1:31:49

to a whole lot of evil going

1:31:51

on right inside the kingdom halls.

1:31:55

If you or anyone you know are experiencing

1:31:57

suicidal thoughts, please know help

1:31:59

us.

1:31:59

is available.

1:32:01

Text 988 to receive support during

1:32:03

a mental health crisis. The 988 lifeline

1:32:06

provides 24-7 free and

1:32:08

confidential support for people in distress,

1:32:11

prevention and crisis resources for your

1:32:13

loved ones, and best practices

1:32:15

for professionals in the United States.

1:32:18

The federal government will conduct a nationwide

1:32:20

test of the Emergency Alert System on

1:32:22

Wednesday afternoon. The test messages

1:32:25

will be sent to all cell phones, televisions,

1:32:27

and radios. The test will emit sound

1:32:30

and, on phones, vibration. The

1:32:32

test is scheduled to begin at about 2.20 p.m.

1:32:35

Eastern Time on Wednesday,

1:32:37

October 4th.

1:32:39

And we say this because those that

1:32:43

are in abusive situations of any kind

1:32:45

that might have a phone that they do not want others

1:32:47

to know about,

1:32:49

just be aware that this is happening.

1:32:52

Yeah, go put it in the trunk of a car or hide

1:32:54

it somewhere. Bury it in the backyard. I think

1:32:56

even you can't take the battery

1:32:58

out of phones and I believe it will still sound even with

1:33:00

it off.

1:33:01

It's, yes. It sounds right when it

1:33:03

comes back on, I think, maybe. I'm

1:33:05

not sure.

1:33:06

So,

1:33:09

this is a concern for lots

1:33:11

of people for lots of different reasons

1:33:14

and

1:33:15

something that I don't think the

1:33:17

federal government really took into consideration.

1:33:19

Right.

1:33:20

I'm like, you just text me. You don't

1:33:23

have to make it sound. Send

1:33:25

a silent text like everyone else. I love

1:33:27

the NPR article was also like, in the event

1:33:29

an actual emergency happens on this

1:33:31

day, the test will be postponed.

1:33:33

I'm like, how are we supposed to know? Wait,

1:33:36

yeah.

1:33:36

What if the Project Blue things go

1:33:38

along? Is it tomorrow? No, but

1:33:40

for real, like, that's a great question. Is how would

1:33:42

we know? They're like, it's not a test. We wouldn't attest.

1:33:45

Say it's not a test. Right, exactly. Like it

1:33:47

was real. But no, you're right. It is vital

1:33:49

for people who are in precarious situations

1:33:51

where their only means of communication are a

1:33:54

secret phone. We hope you hear the news this

1:33:56

Wednesday, October 4th, and we hope the

1:33:58

government doesn't do this anymore because

1:33:59

It sounds like it can put people in danger. Yeah.

1:34:03

So what do we think?

1:34:07

I just shook my head. Yeah. Bunch of times. I

1:34:10

think y'all heard.

1:34:12

I got a lump in my throat that's been

1:34:14

there for weeks now. It's,

1:34:18

it only gets

1:34:18

worse

1:34:20

the more you dig into it, which

1:34:22

is never a

1:34:25

good thing. Usually, you know, you're like,

1:34:27

oh, maybe this is the worst thing. And

1:34:28

then you read stuff and you're like, okay, this makes

1:34:30

me feel a little bit better.

1:34:32

That's a happen. Yeah,

1:34:34

we've been going through

1:34:36

a lot of, like we said, human

1:34:38

rights abuses through

1:34:40

the past two episodes. And we haven't even begun

1:34:43

to talk about not only abuse

1:34:45

of children,

1:34:46

but also willful

1:34:48

knowledge of and cover up of the abuse

1:34:50

of children. So the

1:34:52

fact that we even have to get to that part to

1:34:54

get to the how

1:34:57

insidious they are, it's that

1:34:59

just shows you how bad this this organization

1:35:01

truly is. I mean, it's just like we said, we've had

1:35:03

to decide in what order to arrange

1:35:05

all of these human rights abuses. The next

1:35:07

episode is going to be real,

1:35:08

real rough. It's

1:35:11

definitely going to have focused

1:35:14

mostly on

1:35:15

child sexual abuse.

1:35:18

So if

1:35:20

that's not for you, I totally get it. It's

1:35:24

been very hard for us to learn

1:35:27

about as well. But knowledge

1:35:29

is power, even if that knowledge

1:35:31

is heartbreaking.

1:35:33

Truly. And that's the only thing I can keep

1:35:35

thinking. And if whoever hears this, whatever

1:35:38

we do in our lives, I think we're not

1:35:40

defined by what we label ourselves as

1:35:42

as a Jehovah's Witness or whatever. We're defined

1:35:44

by how much good

1:35:46

that we can do for other people.

1:35:47

And what can can

1:35:50

like Brandy Schmidl said, like if I can save

1:35:52

one person's life, and I know that

1:35:54

not everybody listens in XJW. Maybe

1:35:57

you're just curious. You've seen it. There's a kingdom

1:35:59

hall in your neighborhood.

1:35:59

I'm not telling you go storm the Kingdom Hall and kick the door

1:36:02

open. But

1:36:03

people that you know that may be involved in this, you

1:36:05

know, maintaining a friendship or relationship

1:36:08

with them. I'm guilty of this. I know I'm

1:36:10

thinking about JW's in my life. I'm like, Oh,

1:36:13

we haven't talked in a minute. I just want to just reach out and be

1:36:15

like, how's it going? How are things so

1:36:17

that they know there's a lifeline, that they know that the world

1:36:19

really isn't this

1:36:20

flaming, horrible place run by Satan

1:36:22

that some days it feels like that, certainly. Yes. Yes.

1:36:25

But we also have sunsets. We also have the

1:36:27

state fair of Texas. We also have movies

1:36:29

with your friends. We also have a really good

1:36:32

ice cream cone sitting on a bench, watching people

1:36:34

walk by. And I think why

1:36:36

I get so

1:36:38

heartbroken about this and we

1:36:40

both are heartbroken entirely

1:36:42

and

1:36:43

for a lot of the same reasons. And

1:36:46

one that just keeps getting me over and

1:36:48

over again is just

1:36:50

the, there's

1:36:54

no

1:36:56

reason

1:36:58

for the pain and suffering. Like

1:37:00

it's not like at the end of this,

1:37:03

you know, it's going to, there's not

1:37:06

the people, the family members that sign up for this,

1:37:08

that get people knocking on their doors. Most

1:37:11

of the time they're looking for something. They're vulnerable.

1:37:13

They need something and they are ensnared

1:37:16

into an organization and end up pulling their

1:37:19

families into this organization and birthing

1:37:22

children into this organization that

1:37:24

then it feels so sad

1:37:27

to me that it feels like lives are wasted

1:37:29

that it's not that

1:37:32

they're out doing a lot of good works and

1:37:34

helping a lot of different people like that, but

1:37:36

to them they are and that's the problem. But

1:37:41

regardless of that, I'm just saying overall as a whole,

1:37:43

they're not out. It's not like habitat for

1:37:45

humanity. Right, right. They're not building houses. No,

1:37:48

they're building shit for themselves. So it's to

1:37:50

serve a selfish and whole purpose. Now, is

1:37:52

it they're fed aligned by the governing body

1:37:54

that it's all in the name of Jehovah and it's to save you and

1:37:56

certainly I get that. What I'm saying is they're

1:37:58

being scammed. And that's what makes me

1:38:00

really bummed about this whole thing, to put

1:38:03

it lightly, that really wrecks me about it is

1:38:05

that so many

1:38:06

people for so many years

1:38:08

have been so badly scammed

1:38:10

to the point that I can't even feel bad. Like I don't look

1:38:13

at JW's you go, Oh, if person joined that, what

1:38:15

an idiot. I think, Oh my God, that person

1:38:17

must have been at a really tough time in their life that

1:38:19

they thought that that was going to be the answer.

1:38:22

They were born into it. Or they were born into

1:38:24

it, and they've got no choice at it. And so from,

1:38:26

from my perspective, I think the sad thing is

1:38:28

the waste of lives and the more that all

1:38:31

of us as a society to do to get

1:38:33

to people and say, you don't have to live like this.

1:38:36

Children, vulnerable women, vulnerable

1:38:39

LGBTQ people, people with mental health

1:38:41

problems, you don't have to live like

1:38:43

this. And you don't have to remain trapped by this. And

1:38:45

that's the issue I think we're at in the United States

1:38:48

with the, you know, you want to have freedom of association

1:38:50

and freedom of religion, but you also have,

1:38:52

I think, a compelling interest on behalf

1:38:55

of the government to save lives, to ensure

1:38:57

children are not killed because of this blood

1:38:59

decision that we're going to talk about

1:39:01

in the next one, abuse. People

1:39:03

are not dying by suicide or murdering their families

1:39:06

because they are encouraged to have

1:39:08

proper scientifically vetted

1:39:10

medical treatments for things. And so the more

1:39:12

we can all do to, I think, just keep eyes

1:39:15

on the watchtower organization and