0:00

Hey, everybody. Today's guest has

0:02

honestly made history, first

0:05

by making a mark in the award winning TV

0:07

show Orange Is a New Black, before

0:10

building a career that spans film and

0:12

TV and music and

0:15

so much more. Laverne Cox

0:17

is an inspirational figure for so many people,

0:19

and I'm so glad to have her on the show today.

0:21

Her story will blow

0:23

you away, So lean

0:25

in. I'm glad you well.

0:35

I am here today extremely

0:37

excited to welcome our guest,

0:41

Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great.

0:43

Have we ever have our paths crossed?

0:45

I feel like we must have met someplace. I know we

0:47

haven't worked in anything together, but.

0:51

I think I would remember meeting

0:55

the legendary Kevin Bacon.

0:57

I think I would remember meeting the legendary

0:59

Laverne.

1:00

We've never met. It's so funny.

1:02

I was in I was in La

1:04

over the weekend and Footloose was on

1:07

TV with I

1:10

know, and and

1:12

then Flash Dance came on and I just like,

1:14

I'm fifty one years old, so like my entire

1:16

like elementary school,

1:19

like life, like flash

1:21

before my eyes, and like it was such

1:25

it was such a moment. I know you've done many

1:27

things since Footloose, but

1:29

that is how I discovered you, and it.

1:31

Was just a lovely nostalgic

1:34

moment that I had just had just a few days ago.

1:36

Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you.

1:39

Maybe I have to watch it.

1:40

The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary

1:42

this year. I'm not quite sure

1:45

how to process that yet. But in twenty twenty

1:47

four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of

1:49

making that movie. And you mentioned the

1:51

Flash Dance, which I believe came

1:53

out either the year before or around

1:55

the same time.

1:56

It's a year before.

1:57

Yeah, it was a year before, right, And

2:00

funny side story is that

2:03

I had a I had a dance double

2:06

in the in the movie as well as

2:08

as well as and so did Jennifer

2:11

Peele and they there

2:13

the two doubles got married.

2:16

Oh my god, I didn't know that.

2:18

Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah,

2:21

I'm not sure it lasted, but I know that they were married

2:24

for a while.

2:25

That's amazing. God.

2:27

Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was

2:29

so just

2:32

be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well,

2:34

it's so nice.

2:35

It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have you here

2:38

especially, uh,

2:40

fantastic knowing that you liked

2:42

that movie, so thank you for that. Of course,

2:45

I'm so speaking about

2:47

going going back. I know

2:50

you probably hear this a lot, but tell

2:52

me about your your your journey

2:54

into this specifically into this profession,

2:56

and what it was that brought you to

2:59

our screen.

3:00

Oh my, you know. I it's

3:05

been a long journey.

3:06

But I started out so when I when

3:08

I was a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama,

3:11

and when I started walking, I started

3:13

dancing and I always

3:16

had and so I was a dancer

3:18

as a kid. So footloose and flash dance were touchstones,

3:21

as was fame for me,

3:24

and so I was. And so from about the

3:26

age of five years old till third grade, I begged

3:28

my mother to put me into dance classes, and

3:30

finally, when I was in third grade, I

3:32

started studying tap in jazz. Mobil,

3:35

Alabama was not

3:38

the best place for me to grow up. I was bullied

3:40

as a kid. I was you know, beaten up

3:42

and chased home from school every day because I was this very

3:44

fim child and I was assigned male at birth.

3:47

And so when I would dance, I would.

3:49

Create these characters and

3:51

have music in my head and I would go someplace

3:53

else, and it

3:56

really saved my life as a kid. It was this amazing,

3:58

wonderful thing.

3:59

I care your.

4:00

I used to start doing talent shows in third grade

4:02

and I choreographed a dance routine

4:04

to man Hunt from Flash Dance

4:07

and been third grade.

4:09

Is there a videotape for that?

4:11

I wish we weren't. We were

4:13

poor, so we didn't like record this.

4:15

But can you imagine like this led a little

4:17

black kid doing

4:19

a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from

4:21

Flash Dance. And I don't

4:24

think I fully, I didn't understand what I'm

4:26

going on a man Hunt Mint. So

4:31

I've always been a performer, and I always

4:34

knew that I would transition to acting. Even when

4:36

I was a dancer, I felt like it

4:38

was all sort of about characters.

4:39

It was all about sort.

4:41

Of creating personas, and

4:43

so so I always knew that I would transition

4:45

to acting. And I went to dim

4:47

School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there

4:50

and did and then I did started doing

4:52

some musicals in high school and

4:54

college and started studying acting in

4:56

college. I went to Indiana University, then

4:58

transferred to Marymount Manhattan College

5:00

and I have a degree in dance, but I started

5:03

doing theater when I was in

5:05

college. I did my first movie when I was in college.

5:07

And after I graduated and realized

5:10

I was I needed to like stop being in

5:12

denial about being trans. I was like, well, there's no

5:14

transactors. And this was the

5:17

mid to late nineties, and I was like, what am I going

5:19

to do?

5:19

You know? So then I went to fashion school for like a year.

5:22

Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at

5:24

the scope, at the landscape

5:27

of the industry, the acting industry, and

5:29

said, there's no transactors. This is there's

5:31

no there's no career path here. But I'm

5:33

so I'm going to go into fashion.

5:35

Yeah, I know.

5:36

That was really fascinating.

5:37

I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew

5:40

trans people who were buyers and who worked

5:42

in merchandising, and so I was thinking I

5:44

was going to I was studying merchandising at FAT

5:47

and I did it for like, you know, you know, two semesters

5:49

for like a year, and I was like, I love

5:51

fashion, but I don't.

5:52

Want to do this.

5:52

So I did a movie in college my senior

5:55

year, and like someone saw me on

5:57

the subway and thought I'd be perfume for this movie

5:59

and did a movie then and

6:01

then I someone saw

6:04

me in a club.

6:04

I auditioned for a film. I did another film.

6:06

My little roles were coming around

6:09

here and there for a drag or trance

6:11

and they didn't know the difference between dragon trans at

6:13

the time, and so I

6:15

was I was getting these little roles, and

6:17

then I just was sort of like And then there

6:19

was a woman named Candace

6:22

Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop in Union

6:25

Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting. You should come to

6:27

this acting class. And a woman named

6:29

Susan Batson was still

6:31

teaching. Now she was studying with Susan.

6:33

I went to Susan's class and it did. It changed

6:35

my life and I was like, now it's the time

6:37

to get serious about acting. I don't know if

6:40

you know Susan, but she

6:42

she well, she she while she coaches

6:44

Juliete Binos, Nicole kid

6:46

Mean, She's worked with Nicole for years. She

6:49

has a beautiful book on acting called Truth and she has

6:51

her own process. But she studied

6:53

with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of the act. She

6:55

is a member of the Actors Studio, and she also studied with Uda

6:57

Hogen and has a great book called

7:00

Truth about Acting. And when I started

7:02

studying with Susan, it really I fell

7:05

in love with acting and I really began to understand

7:07

the power of the art

7:09

form to

7:12

change hearts and minds.

7:13

There was a there was a directive.

7:15

Susan always would ask us, implore

7:18

us when we had a character, what do you want

7:20

to say to the world about this character,

7:23

about the humanity of this character.

7:26

Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers,

7:28

he always gave this example of when he had to he

7:31

did a play and he had to play a rapist, and

7:33

he was just like, what do I want

7:35

to say to the world about this rapist,

7:38

horrible character that I'm you know, a person

7:40

who's done a horrible thing. And

7:42

for him it was like if you don't you know,

7:45

for parents, if you don't you know, love your children,

7:47

your child could turn into this horrible

7:49

person.

7:50

So there was a there was.

7:51

Always something attached to the work

7:54

that was bigger than the work.

7:56

But then there was also a call to

7:59

delve is deep into your psyche

8:01

as possible to show her whole thing is to create

8:03

a walking, talking human being and

8:06

to always find the bottom of the character.

8:07

And when you really commit.

8:09

She helped me understand and I think all her students

8:11

understanding when you fully commit

8:14

to the process of delving

8:16

deep into your psyche to give those things

8:18

over to character. So

8:21

many details, so many layers,

8:23

and when you layer that, when you create

8:26

a full human being, that that can shift

8:28

molecule so that that could change the world.

8:31

And then in two thousand and seven, a

8:33

woman named Candace Kane became

8:35

the first transactor to

8:38

have a recurring role in a primetime TV show that

8:40

shows dirty sexy money. That made me

8:42

believe it was possible. And I've been studying

8:44

seriously since two thousand and one.

8:47

And so then I printed

8:49

five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is

8:51

the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before

8:54

then I was auditioning for things and

8:56

not sort of like necessarily disclosing

8:58

my transness. And then I got four

9:01

meetings and one of them was with my current manager

9:03

of Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since

9:05

two thousand and seven, which is amazing.

9:08

And that's crazy with somebody

9:10

that long.

9:11

Yeah, it's been a hard road.

9:12

I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in your conversation with

9:14

Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of talking about going on auditions

9:16

and a lot of my colleagues who

9:19

were not trans have have had

9:21

so many more auditions than I have.

9:22

There just haven't been that many roles.

9:24

And so I've just been really

9:27

I mean, when The Orange's New Black Moment came

9:30

along in twenty twelve, I

9:33

was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and

9:35

I thought, you know, who do

9:38

you think you are thinking that you can be

9:40

an actor? And you're forty

9:42

now, and you're black and you're trans, and

9:44

no one's you know, had a mainstream career,

9:47

and so I was going to go.

9:48

I was about to apply to grad school.

9:50

I was studying for my gre and I was about

9:52

to apply to grad school and

9:54

the Orange audition came along and I

9:56

booked it and it changed my life.

9:58

Wow, Sow. And of course you were so

10:00

fantastic on that show, along with thanks everything

10:03

since then and now now you must

10:05

just turn down work left and right, etc.

10:08

I mean not sure. You seem like you're

10:10

really really busy.

10:12

I'm busy, yes, and I'm

10:14

and I'm also I am picky. I don't

10:16

get you know, it's still don't

10:18

get a lot of offers. I do turn down a

10:20

lot of things, though, because I don't want to repeat

10:22

myself, or it needs to be for

10:25

me. It needs to be working with

10:27

great actors or working with great directors,

10:29

or.

10:31

A story that I really.

10:32

Want to tell, and time is precious,

10:35

and you know, so a lot of it it's

10:37

about the director, it's about the story. I

10:40

do turn down a lot of things, but I don't get

10:42

a lot of offers either. But

10:45

I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red Carpets

10:48

and I still do a lot of speaking engagements

10:50

and we do a lot and

10:52

do my podcast, and so I do get

10:55

to do a lot of different things and

10:57

so have multiple income streams.

10:59

But then it also keeps me creatively excited.

11:02

So the certainly

11:04

there are a lot of my colleagues who work

11:08

who you know, who have four Immy nominations, who

11:10

act way more than I act. But

11:12

I'm lucky that I have other things

11:15

that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I

11:18

have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping people will

11:20

see the work and

11:23

see the range I think, you

11:25

know, I still have to prove myself. I think there's a lot I think

11:27

people, you know, this business, people

11:29

will put you in a box and think that there's only

11:31

one thing.

11:31

They need to do.

11:33

And I am looking

11:35

forward to people seeing the

11:38

range of what I can do. And I'm very

11:40

committed to being

11:42

a better actor and playing

11:45

different kinds of roles. And I can't wait for

11:47

the world to see the

11:49

things, the new things that we've done that are.

11:52

Very different than what we've done before.

11:53

So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click

11:55

with people and directors and casting

11:58

people will see it and.

11:58

Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she can

12:00

do that.

12:01

Well.

12:01

That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you

12:04

know. I mean, I've always felt

12:06

that starting out.

12:09

I was kind of

12:11

even told by people, this is the type of thing

12:14

that you're going to do and it's going

12:16

to be whatever it was in my case, you

12:18

know, boy next door or you know whatever,

12:20

and fighting against

12:22

that and taking those risks and trying

12:25

to to uh because

12:27

Hollywood really does want you to do

12:29

the thing. It's not even so much the last

12:31

thing they saw you in, but it's the thing that you've

12:33

been the most successful at They want

12:35

you because they figure that if they

12:38

could make money, you know, from the thing

12:40

that you did, well, then they want you to do it

12:42

again so they can make the money from the thing that you did.

12:44

Yeah.

12:44

Absolutely, you know, being a black trans

12:46

woman and with the environment that's

12:49

still anti trans now being commercially

12:51

viable, it's like a tricky thing and it's

12:53

something I think a lot about, and I think

12:55

a lot about reaching bigger

12:58

audiences and more diverse

13:00

audiences, which is going to be really important

13:03

from my career going the business part of my career

13:05

going forward. So it's something I think a lot

13:07

about. And hopefully

13:10

my hope is that what

13:12

I've always believed was Susan instilled

13:15

in me and all her students is that if

13:17

the work is

13:21

truly human and you really do the work,

13:23

it will transcend all categories.

13:25

It will transcend that it doesn't matter

13:28

what you look like. She always would talk about Woopy

13:30

Goldberg and that she didn't

13:32

look like anyone else, you know, and the

13:36

power of the work that she did and color

13:38

purple specifically then and as

13:40

a comedian she was just so

13:43

good and so people

13:45

connected to her and related to her and

13:47

she made us laugh and she made us feel

13:49

that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody

13:52

else. And so this is

13:55

my charge as an artist that I'm

13:57

not like anybody else.

13:58

And I think that's wonderful.

14:00

But I that that, but I must be

14:03

I must be exceptional, you know. And so I'm

14:07

probably my biggest critic in terms of my

14:09

work, and I try what I do.

14:11

Love about acting though it's my my

14:14

my prayer before this podcast today and my

14:16

prayer before I work, it's always God, give me

14:18

permission to do this imperfectly and allow

14:20

me to be of service. And so a's

14:22

critical as I am of everything

14:25

that I.

14:25

Do writing that down right now imperfectly

14:28

and of service.

14:29

Thank you that I But so the I

14:31

have to let go of the perfectionism though that's so

14:33

that I have to consciously

14:36

say this is this is going to

14:38

be perfect, and that's okay. And

14:42

I love acting because that's there's

14:44

something about acting as because I sang too, and

14:46

when you sing and I sing opera, when

14:48

you sing, either you're hitting the note or you're

14:50

not. You know, there is a

14:52

precision that's required. But with acting, there's

14:55

so many different choices. I love

14:57

when I get to do a scene a zillion different

14:59

ways, because then I don't I don't

15:01

become beholden to I

15:04

wish they'd use that take, even though that just

15:07

happened to be recently.

15:07

But the project I give.

15:09

I like to give a lot of options to directors,

15:11

and then it helps me artistically

15:14

to not get stuck in the

15:16

scene should be just this way.

15:17

So I'm with it.

15:18

I love playing different

15:21

ways.

15:21

That's a way to go. I totally agree. I

15:24

mean, once you understand the character, you know,

15:26

if you really understand the character, then there's no reason

15:28

not to try different different things, because if

15:31

you're already inhabiting that person that just

15:33

like we, you know, we react to different things

15:35

in the course of our day.

15:43

I love it when I speak to actors

15:45

who really uh are

15:48

are are so uh

15:53

vocal and proud and into

15:56

the fact that the work that we

15:58

do. It can often be so dismissed,

16:00

you know, as it's kind of like we just get

16:03

a lot of money for looking good and wearing makeup,

16:05

and and people will say to you things

16:08

like, you know, I don't understand how you could

16:10

learn all those lines, which you know, as

16:12

we all know, is the least of your problems.

16:14

I mean, it was really it was

16:16

really about learning lines. You

16:18

know, we could all be whatever politicians

16:21

or something. But I mean, I think that you know, it's

16:24

I love to hear your enthusiasm

16:27

and and uh and and love

16:29

of the craft because I feel

16:31

the same way. I really still loving it. I've been doing

16:33

it way longer than you have, and I just

16:36

I absolutely still find

16:39

all of the nuances in all of the ways

16:41

that other people use

16:44

that process, and and

16:46

and the fact that you know, you you slid

16:48

from one very specific kind

16:51

of technique and then discovered another

16:53

one, And it sounds like in some ways

16:55

you're kind of creating your own as life goes

16:57

on. That that takes.

16:59

Different calling call for a different things.

17:01

They different and different actors and different

17:04

directors, and every situation is super

17:07

different. You know, you mentioned them

17:09

just in Passing Opera.

17:12

And I'm curious about that because I'm,

17:15

you know, sitting on this side of the of the

17:18

of the of the microphone, which is

17:20

kind of a new thing for me. I'm I'm I

17:23

find myself echoing back questions

17:25

that I get all the time because I play in a band

17:28

and a songwriter and singer, and so

17:31

this is something that I get. How do you

17:33

how do you feel uh performed,

17:36

performing as an actor relates

17:39

to something that you would do vocally or

17:41

in in Are there similarities

17:43

or differences between the music part of your

17:45

life and the and the acting part of your life.

17:47

I mean the similarity is with with with opera

17:50

is often there is a character if

17:52

you're singing an aria from an opera. I'm

17:55

working at some material from Carmen now,

17:57

so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working around

17:59

the Prey de Rampa de Seville

18:02

and it's a scene with Jean Jose

18:05

and it's the it's a moment in Carmen when

18:07

she's been arrested and John Jose is the officer

18:10

and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested because

18:12

she's got into a fight with some of the girls with cigarette

18:14

factory, and she's seducing Don

18:16

Jose while she's sort of her hands are tied behind

18:18

her back, and so she's, you know, singing

18:20

to herself and seducing him and it's

18:23

so much fun. And so right

18:25

now I have to remember that this

18:27

opera thing is for me and that it's

18:29

supposed to be fun, and yes, I will

18:31

continue to work on my technique and I love to sing

18:33

an f above high see glory,

18:37

but it doesn't come out every day.

18:39

There is a video on Instagram right now me singing

18:41

in.

18:42

I got to check that out that for those

18:44

of you that don't know, that is a very

18:47

high note.

18:48

It's a very high note. And it's fun that I

18:50

that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every

18:52

day, but so yeah,

18:54

I love working on technique as a

18:56

singer. But then I do this because it's

18:58

fun like this, No one's asking me to think, no one

19:01

cares or you know, so this needs to be

19:03

fun for me. So I'm going to work on the Carmen

19:05

and working on some metso stuff where I can probably

19:07

act more and just have a little scrind

19:09

and have it be a little less technical, even though I

19:11

will continue to work on my technique.

19:13

So you know, I love it when people do multiple

19:16

things in their in their lives, which

19:18

you've done, you know, time and time again.

19:20

You you you uh, you know, as

19:22

you mentioned done your red carpet stuff

19:25

and opera, your

19:27

amazing acting career.

19:30

Uh.

19:30

You're also a very

19:32

strong advocate for

19:35

different kinds of human rights.

19:37

And I think that's a pretty good segue

19:40

to bring in the Chase Strangio

19:42

today. Who is from

19:44

the A C l U And who

19:47

is you have invited

19:50

to join us? Hey you Chase?

19:52

How you doing?

19:53

I'm doing well.

19:54

I've been very intrigued by your

19:56

conversation and excited excited

19:59

to be here with you.

20:01

Well.

20:01

Laverne mentioned in passing that,

20:03

uh, you know that we were

20:06

at a

20:08

a dark moment in this country

20:11

in terms of backlash against

20:13

people with trans writes, and I

20:15

have to say, I mean, I just

20:19

there are times when I really really do

20:21

feel like we are taking a step

20:24

back from you know, even five

20:26

years ago. Uh. And I'm

20:28

wondering, first off, what

20:30

is the what is the work that

20:32

you are doing around this very specific

20:35

issue, and and what is it that you

20:37

think has has uh has

20:39

gotten us here?

20:41

Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny that you

20:43

you you both started talking about Footlooth

20:46

because there's.

20:46

Moments when in

20:48

this current landscape.

20:50

Where you start to look at the level

20:53

of constraint and restrictions on people's

20:55

ability to experience joy,

20:58

pleasure a secular life, and

21:01

you almost think about the conditions and footloots

21:04

at times like we are moving in this in

21:06

this direction, both in the United States and globally,

21:09

where you have the rise of far right governments

21:11

happening alongside, of course,

21:13

these very particular types of restrictions

21:16

over bodily autonomy, over the

21:18

family, over the possibilities for

21:21

one's sense of imagination

21:24

and self expression and self actualization.

21:26

And what that looks like in.

21:28

Practice is fighting back against

21:30

laws, not just those targeting

21:33

the trans community, those restricting

21:35

what our kids can learn in school, those

21:38

constraining what we can access in public

21:40

libraries. Obviously massive

21:43

changing conditions in the overturning of ree

21:45

View Waid with the Dobbs decision, continued

21:48

voter suppression since the Supreme Court overturned

21:50

the Voting Rights Act. So we're having these intersecting

21:53

realities affecting people's lives.

21:55

And then in.

21:56

Particular for trans people, there is just an

21:58

existential salt on

22:00

our existence, one that is very

22:02

much focused on kids, young people,

22:05

and adolescents in particular in

22:07

schools, but also that has grave

22:09

implications not just for trans adults but for

22:12

all of us, because this is an entry point

22:15

into a larger incursion into our

22:17

body autonomy, our freedom, and our ability

22:20

to live full and free lives.

22:23

I'm curious for you, Chase.

22:26

Obviously you found your way to this work and to

22:29

the ACL I want to as

22:31

you've got the microphone, so I'm

22:35

very interested in what brought you to this work

22:37

And tell me a little bit about your specific

22:40

story.

22:41

Yeah, I'm someone who you

22:45

know, sort of my tools

22:47

for my survival, my way

22:49

of managing growing up when

22:52

I you know, I didn't have access to representations

22:54

of queerness and transness.

22:55

I'm forty one years old. I didn't

22:57

grow up at a time when there was

23:00

uh the Internet available to me, So I

23:02

didn't even really understand the breadth of possibility.

23:05

And so my my weapons,

23:07

so to speak, or my survival battle

23:09

tool was my mind. And and so you

23:12

know, also Verne's

23:14

sort of notion of perfectionism, how often we use

23:16

perfectionism as a as a survival as

23:18

a survival mechanism when we're feel when

23:21

we feel unlovable, we don't see a place

23:23

for ourselves. And so for me find

23:25

you know, fighting, you know, WY

23:27

way to survive in school

23:30

into adulthood was about intellectual

23:33

pursuits, which ultimately drew

23:35

me to college, which I had the privilege

23:37

to attend, and then and then to to law

23:39

school ultimately, and and in

23:41

part I went to law school because I saw that

23:43

as a legitimizing forces.

23:45

I was becoming more aware of my.

23:47

Queerness and my transness, not understanding

23:49

how I would exist in a world

23:52

that you know, fundamentally rejected

23:54

transgressions. Uh uh,

23:56

you know, people's transgressions from the gender binary.

23:58

I mean went to college at the height

24:01

of the backlash to the very early

24:03

successes of fights for marriage equality after

24:05

Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in two

24:07

thousand and three.

24:08

You know, you had the George W.

24:10

Bush years where more than half the country

24:12

constitutionally bans marriage.

24:14

Equality for same sex couples.

24:15

And so as you're growing up and coming

24:18

of age in his time, for me, my

24:20

question was, well, who am I going to be and how

24:22

am I gonna How am I going to find

24:25

a way to navigate in this world? And so I ultimately

24:27

did become a lawyer, both

24:29

to serve my community as a transperson, to

24:32

fight as a trans lawyer for trans causes,

24:34

but also, you know, if I'm honest, to find

24:37

a way to be someone who could

24:39

be seen and taken seriously in society

24:42

and that is something that I

24:44

think it would be it would be dishonest

24:47

not to admit that that was part of

24:49

the journey. And I ultimately

24:51

found my way to the ACLU eleven years

24:53

ago, and I've been here working

24:56

on behalf of LGBTQ rights

24:58

and justice in the courts and the legislatures

25:00

and also in the public conversation. And

25:02

Laverne and I have worked closely together

25:05

for the last ten years or so

25:08

because I think we both recognize at the end of

25:10

the day, you can fight every

25:12

single battle, and in the courts you can win

25:14

some of those battles, but if you're not changing

25:16

people's empathetic impulses, if

25:18

you're not changing the cultural context, those

25:21

those legal and policy changes are not going

25:23

to be durable. And so so much

25:25

of the work is about, you know, the

25:27

theater of the courtroom, but it's so much more about

25:29

the theater of society, and how are we going to ultimately

25:32

transform people's understanding of

25:35

our relationship to each other as human beings

25:37

and and and our you know, sort of deservedness

25:39

of our humanity.

25:42

Connect Please, I

25:45

want to add to that because I think so

25:47

much of what has brought us to this

25:49

moment is the

25:52

sort of collision of media,

25:55

media propaganda that

25:57

is literally affecting what's happening

26:00

in the courts, the propaganda that dehumanizes

26:03

trans people on every

26:05

single level. And for me right

26:07

now, it's so important that we

26:12

understand that what is what

26:14

anti trans people have done very successfully

26:17

is dehumanized trans people through

26:20

conversations about our focusing on our bodies,

26:22

focusing on transition, using sports,

26:25

and through that dehumanization they've been able to

26:27

successfully take away our rights.

26:29

Chase is challenging these laws in the courts.

26:32

We'll see what happens, but we

26:35

a huge part of this project needs to be

26:37

rehumanizing, not just trans

26:39

people, but everybody.

26:41

We are in a.

26:42

Culture right now where we see

26:44

so many people dehumanizing each

26:46

other. And Brene

26:49

Brown reminds us in her book Braving the Wilderness,

26:51

at the beginning of every single genocide

26:53

was dehumanization. So we have

26:55

to if we are interested in

26:58

not having genocides and celebrating

27:01

the humanity of everyone, we have to really

27:03

look at the ways in which we use dehumanizing

27:06

language understanding. And it's not for

27:08

me, it's not about policing language, because I'm

27:10

not a language police, But I think I believe

27:12

in freedom of speech, but I think it's about understanding

27:15

that when we talk about trans people

27:17

and reduce us to chromosomes

27:20

or testosterone levels or genitalia,

27:22

that that is objectifying us, in dehumanizing

27:25

us, and that leads to the conditions

27:28

that where our rights can be taken away,

27:31

where we can just be murdered in streets

27:34

with impunity and people are just like, well,

27:36

you're not human anyway, right. So

27:38

the work, and this is

27:40

what I love about being an artist, and this is what the

27:42

work we can do in the media is to humanize

27:46

trans people. And we are an uphel battle

27:48

because there is a very organized

27:52

right wing media ecosystem

27:55

that is committed to dehumanizing

27:58

trans people. And I think it's not just what trans

28:00

people. We have to be careful about how we use

28:02

language about anyone we disagree

28:05

with. I believe that like so often

28:07

it's so easy when someone did that

28:09

we disagree with, says something or

28:11

does something, that it becomes really easy to

28:13

use the humanizing language against them. And I

28:15

think we have to fight against that because

28:18

when we dehumanize other people, we dehumanize

28:20

ourselves.

28:27

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28:59

Chase, you brought this up about, you

29:01

know, a culture building, a culture of empathy

29:04

and a culture of understanding that that

29:06

somehow, some sometimes does not

29:08

exist in our society. And

29:12

you know, I am the perfect demographic

29:15

for the person that sometimes

29:20

looks at and

29:22

I've heard this from from people

29:25

that I know. You know, look,

29:27

they look at something like a

29:29

way of speaking, you know, pronouns

29:32

or or or or language that you

29:34

mentioned language Laverne, And

29:37

the reaction is, oh, wow, I

29:40

can't say anything anymore, you know what I

29:42

mean? It's that it's that point of view of

29:46

wanting desperately to hold on to

29:48

some kind of idea of what the status

29:51

quo is. And I wonder

29:54

for both of you, how

29:56

do you address that? I mean, just

29:59

just to. In

30:01

my opinion, the idea that

30:03

you can learn something new when

30:06

you're an old guy, right,

30:08

is the most beautiful possibility there is

30:11

in the world. You can learn to adjust

30:13

your way of thinking. That's

30:15

how you stop dying.

30:18

Really, you know, that's that's that's

30:20

what that's what you know when you when you're stuck

30:22

in one sort of mindset, you've got

30:24

one foot in the grape. So

30:26

I'm just wondering if you have any

30:29

suggestions and how to deal with that when that

30:31

comes up. And when you hear that, oh my gosh,

30:34

I can't you know, yeah.

30:36

I mean, I guess my initial response

30:38

to the idea when people say, well, we can't say

30:41

anything anymore. You can do

30:43

You can say whatever you want. It's just whether

30:45

there are consequences to what you say.

30:48

And that's the reality is that there are. We

30:50

live in a society where norms change,

30:52

the consequences of our actions change. It's

30:54

like when we have conversations about acceptable

30:57

levels of violence against women in the workplace,

30:59

for you know, this reaction of

31:02

men and the saying, well, now I can't.

31:04

Talk to a woman. It's like, well, I

31:06

have a lot of questions.

31:07

It does that you can't talk because because

31:10

what you're you are incapable of talking to a woman

31:12

without these certain things, or you're afraid of

31:14

these consequences. We have to have a more robust

31:16

conversation about what what people are saying

31:18

they can and can't do. And often what that means

31:21

is there are different consequences for me doing

31:23

a certain thing. You can still choose to do

31:25

it, you just then have a different set of consequences.

31:27

But I think what's really hard. I mean, I think about myself as

31:30

a parent and so many other parents. I think

31:32

if you ask people what is one reason you have kids,

31:34

and I think a lot of people will say it

31:37

is really beautiful to see the world

31:40

anew to experience a

31:42

newness to things that you become

31:44

jaded on. And this is an example of that,

31:46

Like we want the world to change.

31:48

How Like to your point, Kevin,

31:51

how dull and uninteresting

31:54

a life if nothing changes as you

31:56

age.

31:56

And into your your your older adult

31:59

years.

31:59

And so it's on the one hand, you want to have kids and

32:01

you want to see the world a new but you want to control

32:04

all of the contours of that. I think that that's, you

32:06

know, a contradiction in terms and I would say, you

32:08

know, yes, there are moments when I have an

32:11

eleven year old and I'm like, I have no idea what you're

32:13

talking about, but our impulse to say

32:15

and therefore I want to dismiss it instead of to

32:17

say, Wow, how much more exciting could

32:20

my world be?

32:21

You know comes from a place of fear, and people are often

32:23

fearful of what they don't understand, and that makes

32:25

sense, but I think we're all much more enriched

32:28

when we say, huh, what would it

32:30

look like to incorporate

32:32

that into my sense of possibility? Instead

32:34

of trying to keep things exactly as how

32:36

I feel most comfortable.

32:37

I may, I may, I may I. I

32:40

mean, I hear it all the time.

32:41

I consume tons of media

32:43

and like people are constantly saying, you can't say

32:45

anything anymore. People are so sensitive

32:48

And again I'm

32:50

not I mean, I'm an artist and I believe

32:53

in freedom of speech. But for me, when

32:55

I I had a moment

32:58

on Twitter many years ago, and

33:01

I'm from Alabama and my homestate passed a crazy

33:04

abortion restriction, and I retweeted

33:06

a friend who said a woman's body a

33:08

woman's choice in a

33:10

story, and then a transman tweeted

33:12

me and said, you're really going to erase transmen

33:15

and non binary people in this tweet Laverta.

33:17

I was just like, oh no, here

33:19

we go. And it was a moment.

33:21

I just remember feeling it was so uncomfortable

33:23

and I felt like called out and I felt

33:25

so it was so uncomfortable and so awkward,

33:28

and I remember tweeting I was like, thank you for pointing

33:30

this out. I'll take this into consideration, I really

33:32

and I thought about a lot about it, and at the moment,

33:35

in the moment, I was like, oh god, I don't know if people want

33:37

to think about transman being pregnant right now.

33:39

And so I had all these things and

33:41

I was like, can I have a moment of solidarity with

33:43

my you know, sisters? And

33:46

it was like but then what

33:49

that moment was about, though for

33:51

me it's someone who was interested in the

33:54

humanity of trans people, is

33:57

that, like, I don't want to erase

33:59

the experience of trans people. So it's not

34:01

about like this

34:03

trans guy being super sensitive.

34:05

It's about me wanting

34:08

to make him feel

34:11

included and make him feel

34:13

like he's being seen. And

34:16

there are real life consequences

34:18

when we don't when people who

34:21

can get pregnant and their healthcare

34:23

needs are not being addressed because

34:25

they don't identify as women. So there actually

34:27

are material consequences

34:31

when we don't consider consider

34:35

people.

34:35

And so the language piece.

34:36

Language is how we communicate and

34:39

how we relate information.

34:41

It's not about not being able to say

34:43

something for me. It's about understanding

34:46

the consequences of what we say

34:50

and how it affects the real lived experiences

34:52

of people.

34:53

These are really tiny

34:55

adjustments when you really look at it in the bigger

34:57

picture of things. These are not hardships.

35:00

To try to address somebody

35:02

in the way that they would be more comfortable

35:05

being addressed. To try to keep your hands

35:07

to yourself, you know, to try to think

35:09

about, you know, not not joking

35:13

in the way that you joked around on the set in the

35:16

eighties, you know what I mean, whatever happens to be, they're

35:19

not really big, huge

35:21

adjustments to make. Let's face it. I mean, they're

35:23

they're they're they're they're easy.

35:25

Sometimes there are moments are of discomfort

35:28

that one might have. That the moment on Twitter

35:30

when I was called out publicly by this transman,

35:32

it was very uncomfortable, and so

35:35

I.

35:35

Think we being able

35:37

to sit.

35:38

With discomfort and being able to distinguish

35:40

between being uncomfortable

35:43

and being shamed or

35:45

being you know, having some granularity

35:48

around what's what we're feeling

35:50

and having some sort of self awareness

35:53

and self accountability I think becomes

35:55

really important. And then also being able to interrogate our

35:57

own relationship to power.

35:58

And I think that.

36:01

I sort of hate the phrase check your privilege,

36:03

but I think it's important for It's

36:05

been very important for me. Is I've you know,

36:08

even as a black trans woman from a working

36:11

class background that like now as a

36:13

famous person, as a person with some

36:15

class privilege that I have, I'm privileged

36:17

now. So it's like me constantly

36:20

being willing

36:24

and willing to be uncomfortable

36:26

to interrogate my privilege

36:29

is to hold myself accountable,

36:31

to try to be accountable to the

36:33

people in my life,

36:36

to my to the public

36:38

platform that I have, and

36:40

the people that I represent, to

36:42

try to be accountable and like all of that

36:45

is really can be really uncomfortable

36:47

and very difficult, but hopefully we can begin

36:50

to do that with the people in our lives

36:52

and our inner circles, and maybe I would

36:54

love to I'm trying to do this publicly.

36:57

I'm trying as much as possible model

36:59

way in which we can publicly

37:01

create safe space so that we can have conversations

37:05

where people don't shut down

37:07

and feel attacked and so then go

37:09

into defense mode.

37:11

Well, well, speaking with a lot, Well

37:14

no, I'm I you do a

37:16

lot of work in terms of

37:19

being public about all of these things,

37:21

which, which you know, listen, is fantastic.

37:23

We we don't all do. Chase,

37:25

you're here with the

37:27

A. C. L U and I.

37:32

I've kept you guys for so long,

37:34

and I really do appreciate you both being

37:36

here, but I'm curious from you, Chase,

37:39

at this moment in time.

37:41

It's two pronged question. Number one, what

37:43

are the most pressing issues that we have

37:46

right now in the in this country

37:48

and in the world, and most specifically

37:51

our call to action? How can people help and

37:53

get get involved and and uh

37:55

and and you know, try to turn things around.

37:59

Well, we went from a situation

38:01

where there was zero laws

38:03

in.

38:04

Twenty twenty one that banned

38:07

healthcare for transgender adolescence.

38:09

Zero.

38:09

So in the span of two years, we

38:12

went from zero laws to now

38:14

we have twenty two states that categorically

38:16

ban evidence based medicine

38:18

for transgender adolescence. And I think what's important

38:21

for people to understand, especially for parents to understand,

38:23

is this is a healthcare that's only being prescribed

38:25

with the consent of parents and the recommendation

38:28

of every major medical association in the United

38:31

States, and the state is coming in and saying we know

38:33

better, we're going to take away that one option.

38:35

And what that's done is to take

38:38

away healthcare that people have been relying

38:40

on in almost half the country, increasing

38:42

the demand on other states

38:44

if people can even travel to other states, but

38:46

also for those who can't, are making

38:48

it close to impossible.

38:50

And obviously there's an outside sense of

38:53

sort of how many young people are getting this care

38:55

because of how much coverage there is, but

38:57

of course it's a very very.

38:58

Small percentage of people. But the state our

39:00

life or death.

39:01

And so right now we're fighting in the courts trying

39:03

to stop the state,

39:06

just like in the context of abortion, just like in the

39:08

contexts of other restrictions on bodily

39:10

autonomy, stop to state from intruding on

39:12

our ability to make the decisions with

39:14

our parents, with our children that

39:17

are best for us in accordance with the recommendations.

39:19

Of our doctors. We are now asking

39:22

the Supreme Court to review one of these cases.

39:25

Many there may be.

39:26

Several cases involving transgender rights going

39:28

up to the Supreme Court, So the states could not

39:30

be higher as well as of course, we're building

39:32

up to a presidential election. We know that

39:35

some of the candidates running are some of the most anti

39:37

transpoliticians in the country, including

39:39

Nicki Haley, including Governor DeSantis,

39:41

including Donald Trump.

39:43

And so what does it mean if you shift the executive.

39:45

And you have people who fundamentally want to eradicate

39:48

trans life leading our country.

39:50

So that is the nature of

39:52

the threat. It truly is life

39:54

or death.

39:55

And just as a reminder, people

39:57

are trying to take away our ability to determine

40:00

that's right for us.

40:01

This doesn't concern them.

40:03

You know, one person's medical care that they and their

40:05

parents and their doctor agree is necessary does not

40:07

implicate another person's life,

40:10

safety, or freedom.

40:11

But taking it away from us does implicate ours.

40:13

So as a call to action, and.

40:15

Just to make it brief, I would say, first and foremost, we

40:17

all have the ability to change the circumstances

40:19

and conversations in our lives and communities.

40:22

So you know, to your point, Kevin,

40:24

when you're on set, if.

40:25

You're in your kids school, just

40:27

make more room for people to exist, because

40:29

so much of this is playing out in the public

40:31

discourse. So don't

40:34

say I can't use the pronouns like you use

40:36

a pronouns all the time.

40:37

Is there a package coming today, Yeah, they're

40:39

bringing it in an hour. We do it. It's

40:41

actually very common. And in the second

40:43

we shut something down, we just make

40:46

less space.

40:46

So maybe it takes you a little while, maybe it is hard,

40:49

but how can we make more space in

40:51

our lives? And then also, you

40:53

know, give money when you can, share resources

40:55

when you can, and think about your political

40:57

engagement, not just at the federal level, but at.

40:59

This local level as well.

41:01

Thank you.

41:01

So much is happening in our school boards, so much is

41:03

happening in our city council. So much is happening in our

41:05

state legislatures.

41:07

That's so true. It's so true. On the state

41:09

level, it's so important.

41:11

And I can just add the fight is happening

41:13

on the state level. But desantists

41:16

Trump have both said that they will ban

41:18

gender firm and care nationally.

41:20

They are committed to that.

41:21

If we have a Republican president they plan

41:24

to ban gender firming care nationally.

41:26

And it's not just for about children, it's everyone.

41:29

There are states now that are banning gender firm

41:31

and care also for adults. And what

41:33

I would say to that, for everyone who's out there

41:35

who wants to say, well,

41:37

I think whether or not trans

41:40

children should access gender or

41:42

firming care that's up for debate, I would say

41:44

it's not. As Chase said, this care is

41:47

Every major medical association says that this

41:49

care is healthy and it is safe,

41:52

and politicians should not be

41:54

involved in that period. Point blank,

41:57

My existence, my access to healthcare

41:59

should not be up for debate. It is none

42:02

of your business. And I would love for

42:04

people to say, when they hear people

42:06

say this, we should be debating this.

42:08

No, we should not.

42:10

We should allow trans people to exist

42:12

on their own terms, have conversations

42:14

with their doctors, with their parents, and the government

42:17

should have nothing to do with it.

42:19

It's been absolutely up

42:22

thrilling to hear both of you and your

42:26

obviously personal

42:30

and heartfelt opinions

42:32

and the work that you're doing on this very

42:35

very very important issue.

42:41

Hey guys, thanks for listening to another episode

42:43

of Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon and If

42:45

you want to learn more about how

42:47

the ACLU is fighting for trans

42:49

rights and how you can get involved, head

42:52

to their website ACLU

42:55

dot org. You can find all the

42:57

links in our show notes. Like

43:00

what you hear, make sure you subscribe to the

43:02

show and tune into the rest of our episodes

43:04

so you can find Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon

43:07

on iHeartRadio, Apple

43:09

Podcasts, or wherever

43:11

you get your podcasts. See

43:14

you next time.