0:01

Yes, yes, y'all. Before we get into

0:03

this episode of Small Doses Podcast, let

0:05

me hip you to a few things.

0:07

Your girl is back on the road

0:10

on tour and whatnot. I will be

0:12

in Dallas, Texas on Sunday, February 25th.

0:16

I'm doing two types of shows, all right?

0:18

I'm doing stand up, but I'm also doing,

0:20

I've been knowing live, if y'all are in

0:22

my DMs, if y'all are commenting, if y'all

0:24

are finding yourself saying, dang, like, I really

0:26

don't know what to do about elections coming

0:28

up. This is the space I've created for

0:30

us to share our knowledge, our

0:32

concerns, not only about the now, but about

0:34

the future, right? Because it's not gonna stop

0:36

just that now. So I've created this space

0:38

for us to get together to educate each

0:40

other. So hopefully, if you're not gonna be

0:42

in Dallas, you'll tell somebody else to be

0:45

there, all right? That's going down again, February

0:47

25th. Get your tickets at

0:49

amandaceals.com. I'm also gonna be in Birmingham

0:51

in March. I'll be in Stanford, Connecticut

0:53

in April. I'll be in Baltimore in

0:55

May. So keep a lookout for when

0:57

those tickets are going on sale again

0:59

at amandaceals.com. While you're there, try signing

1:02

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1:05

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1:07

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1:09

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1:11

in the mix. So the newsletter is a great

1:13

way to do that. We get about two newsletters

1:15

every month. One gives you updates on what's coming

1:17

up on small doses, what's coming up

1:19

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1:21

cetera. More of like promo, just to keep

1:23

y'all up to the date of things in

1:25

the ecosystem of Amanda Seals. But

1:27

the second newsletter is giving

1:29

y'all information that we're talking about in the ecosystem

1:32

of Amanda Seals. So you hear me talking about

1:34

Zionism on the podcast, but we're gonna give you

1:36

more information in the newsletter. You hear me talking

1:38

about shows that are good to watch and shows

1:40

that are a waste of time. On my radio

1:42

show, we're talking about it in the newsletter. We're

1:44

highlighting organizers when I'm going to different cities. We're

1:46

giving you more info about how to support those

1:48

people's works in the newsletter, et cetera, et cetera.

1:50

So we're giving you a promo, we're giving you

1:52

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1:54

those are two things I would love for you

1:56

to check out. If you haven't checked out my

1:58

radio show, the Amanda Seals. show. Remember what's

2:01

available wherever you get your podcasts and in

2:03

select cities. All right, let's get into this

2:05

podcast. Before I actually get into it, let

2:07

me just say one more thing. We

2:10

about to be doing some fangs on the Patreon with

2:12

small doses podcast, including new bonus

2:17

episodes. Yeah,

2:19

y'all been talking about it. Y'all been asking for

2:22

it. So y'all probably start getting

2:24

bonus episodes, the small doses podcast, it's

2:26

only going to be available on Patreon. Let's go

2:28

for it. All right, let's get into it. So

2:43

y'all this, this is

2:46

one of them

2:48

times where I'll be

2:51

on the Instagram and

3:00

I see something or

3:02

see someone that is

3:05

so like immediately instantaneously

3:08

soul stirring, soul

3:11

stirring that I then DM

3:13

them. And then it's always cool

3:16

when like I go to hit them. And

3:18

either they I can't remember if you

3:20

already followed me or not. But in this case, you

3:22

hit me back. Oh, you did. Yeah,

3:27

Richie. I

3:30

will first of all, okay. So

3:33

I'm going to admit to a

3:35

very rare case of unprofessionalism, because

3:38

I did not, I did

3:40

not get to watch the documentary between

3:42

the time that we scheduled

3:44

this and now that we're shooting this,

3:46

right? So it's been like

3:49

three days. So they just

3:51

tell the people, they tell the people, they tell the people, because

3:55

I was really like, maybe we'll

3:57

have time to watch it between.

4:00

And we didn't, but I

4:02

think that honestly, my listeners

4:04

would really relish you

4:06

taking us through the journey

4:08

and the process of prison feminism

4:10

and the project and the, just

4:13

the vision that you had for even what got

4:15

you to that point. Because when a lot of

4:17

people talk about feminism, they think, first of all,

4:20

most people think white women, because

4:22

that was by design. They

4:25

were like, it's ours. But it doesn't

4:27

mean that the concept of feminism is

4:29

white women, like the actual ideas.

4:32

So first and foremost, I would love for

4:34

you to just like, introduce yourself to our

4:36

audience and

4:39

give them a little bit of a

4:41

context of who you are. Sure,

4:45

I'm so happy to be here. I'm

4:47

Richie Racita. My pronouns are he

4:50

and him. I was locked up for seven years. I

4:53

am a social entrepreneur and

4:55

an abolitionist. I

4:57

started this organization, Success Stories

5:00

Program, the Instagram is Prison

5:02

Feminism, while I was in prison, because

5:04

I was blessed enough to have a really beautiful

5:07

community of women and

5:09

non-binary people of color

5:11

who really supported me in my

5:13

transformation from even

5:16

before I got locked up. So as

5:19

I was in prison and I was

5:21

reflecting on the choices that I made

5:23

that contributed to me being there, I

5:26

just had a tool that I knew

5:28

about patriarchy. Like I understood that there was

5:30

a cultural context in which I was making

5:33

these choices. I committed three robberies when I

5:35

was 19. Largely not

5:37

just- Robbery is different than burglary, right? Because

5:39

robbery is like a person and burglary is

5:41

just the stuff? Yeah,

5:43

burglary is when you just take stuff usually out

5:46

of like a store that's closed as opposed to

5:48

robbery is when you take stuff from a person,

5:50

like going up to the register and being like,

5:52

give me the money or the

5:54

goods or whatever. Is it room to ask people

5:56

why they were in prison? I think

5:58

it depends on who's doing it. and why,

6:00

but rudeness is not necessarily a bad

6:02

thing. But it can

6:04

be rude. I'll take that, I'll take that. I

6:08

hate that. It doesn't feel rude

6:10

when you do it. I mean, for me, it's like,

6:13

Well, cause I feel like it's a part of the story of

6:15

like how, you know. Yeah, it's very

6:17

relevant here. Right. If

6:19

I was just like out in the world and someone

6:21

like overheard a conversation, they're like, well, what did you

6:24

go to prison for? And I can tell they're doing

6:26

that thing where they're trying to judge if I'm a

6:28

worthwhile human being or not. And it's like, fuck

6:30

that person, you know? But my

6:32

actual, I could cuss on here. I

6:34

imagine so. I thought so.

6:39

But for the sake of, yeah, for understanding

6:42

it. I mean, I talked about it really

6:44

openly. That I'm having to, Oh, I'm sorry.

6:47

I'm having to legit like push

6:51

through. You gotta push through.

6:53

You gotta stop dating light skin for your own

6:55

mental health. And then you gotta push through. You're

6:57

not wrong. Yeah,

7:01

I mean, I'm gonna screenshot

7:03

and send to my community.

7:05

And they're gonna be like, wow,

7:07

that's crazy. Okay,

7:10

so. And he had also been to prison. So

7:12

there's like, you know, there's similarities. Damn.

7:17

So did you go to prison for robbery? Yeah. For

7:20

armed robbery? Yes. Why was it seven

7:22

years? That seems like an excessive amount of time. They tried to give me 150

7:24

years to double life. What?

7:27

Yeah, that's, I mean, where

7:29

were you? Los Angeles, California.

7:33

Ah, yes. Yeah. It's the most incarcerated county

7:35

in the most incarcerated country in the world.

7:38

And that's what they do. So they

7:40

counted each individual person in the store,

7:42

even people who are in the bathroom,

7:44

whatever, as its own robbery. Five

7:47

years for each robbery, plus 10 years for the use of

7:49

the gun. And then they also

7:51

charge us with two kidnappings. Cause if you

7:53

move somebody more than three feet using fear,

7:56

then that's kidnapping. If you put someone

7:58

in the trunk of the car, or if you just say, get the fuck out. out

8:00

of my way or I'll beat your ass. Either way,

8:02

it's seven years to life kidnapping in California. Shut

8:04

the fuck up. Who

8:06

came up with that? Mind you,

8:09

I'm like, because I'm

8:11

just saying, like, as a person who has no

8:13

interest in kidnapping, even

8:15

if someone were like, get the fuck out the way,

8:17

I wouldn't feel like I was kidnapped. I feel like

8:19

I was warned. Yeah,

8:24

that's how they charge it. I mean, their strategy is to

8:26

charge you with as many things as possible. So you take

8:28

a plea deal so they don't have to spend the money

8:30

to go to trial. And then they also

8:32

charge us with assault with a deadly weapon, which is

8:34

completely baseless. Nobody was assaulted or touched

8:36

or anything like that. But at that point, they're

8:38

just stacking charges to get us to plead out.

8:41

So I fought my case

8:43

for a year and had a really beautiful

8:46

community of organizers raise over $10,000 for me

8:48

to get a private lawyer. And that's ultimately

8:50

why I got 10 years in prison, 10

8:52

years and two strikes instead of the

8:55

150. And it's while we were in prison that we

8:57

organized to change the law. So that ended up doing

8:59

seven instead of 10. So we

9:01

have to do a whole other episode with you. I

9:05

mean, there's a lot to cover, yo. It's

9:07

a lot. It takes a lot to get

9:09

about these systems for. Well,

9:12

you know, that's exactly what we're talking about,

9:14

right? Getting about these systems, right? So it's

9:16

like low key, you were a high key,

9:18

you were in a system where then you

9:21

found inspiration to then address a

9:23

whole other system that got a

9:25

lot of y'all in that particular

9:27

system. Right? I mean, is it

9:29

fair to say that toxic

9:32

masculinity is a large

9:35

part of what drives what

9:37

you feel like drove a lot of the folks that were in prison with

9:39

you to like the crimes that they were doing or

9:41

being able to see, not see beyond

9:43

their own self harm? Absolutely.

9:45

Patriarchy is what drives people to commit

9:48

a lot of the acts that lead

9:50

us to prison and patriarchy is what leads us

9:52

to believe in prisons in the first place. Without

9:55

patriarchy, we don't have any of this. Keep on

9:57

my mind. I'll talk. Keep going. Both. Both

10:00

of them, patriarchy is essentially the idea that

10:02

domination is power and that

10:04

cisgender, heterosexual maleness is inherently

10:07

dominant and inherently powerful. On

10:10

my behalf, in my cultural context, as

10:12

a young person who grew up

10:14

in LA, I was seeking to be

10:17

a worthwhile human by being a

10:19

quote unquote real man and real men had money.

10:22

I was broke living in cars and shit. I

10:25

decided to rob stores. As

10:28

a culture, we also believe that domination

10:31

is power. When somebody quote

10:33

unquote hurts us, and I put it in quotes because

10:35

most people in LA were not affected by my robbery

10:37

at all, we have to quote unquote

10:39

hurt them back in order for there to be

10:41

quote unquote justice. It

10:43

is upon that idea that we build these castles of

10:45

shame that we call prisons. But

10:47

if we saw power as connection, if we saw

10:49

power as integrity, then rather than like I need

10:52

to dominate you and force this quote unquote badness

10:54

out of you, it would be like you are

10:56

a legitimate human being trying to suit your needs

10:58

just like I am. So what need

11:00

are you trying to suit and what needs to be transformed

11:02

so you can do that in a way that doesn't harm

11:04

others? Got you. I

11:07

would just be curious to hear just how you went from

11:09

being incarcerated to then

11:11

being able to share that. I was just like looking through

11:13

your page and you said you were last out of the

11:15

room the first time. But what

11:18

made you get even over the first hump,

11:20

which is you saying, I want to

11:22

get in the room? I so just

11:24

like a little bit of background grew up in

11:27

LA. I'm an artist.

11:29

I'm a producer. I produce music. I just

11:31

directed and edited my first music video fully

11:33

by myself. I do clothes and that's always

11:35

why I wanted to be and our school

11:37

system is not designed to foster that. That's

11:40

not seen as like a legitimate thing to be

11:42

especially at that time, the early 2000s like

11:45

being into music and musicals and fashion is

11:47

something that I got made fun of for

11:50

like it wasn't considered like manly

11:52

quote unquote like being into sports or

11:54

something more based in domination and winning.

11:57

So the system wasn't really supportive. supportive

12:00

of me as a child. And I went

12:02

to the Los Angeles Unified School District where

12:04

we have the LA School Police Department, which

12:06

is the biggest school police department in the

12:08

world. It's one of the biggest police departments

12:10

period in the world. It's an independent police

12:12

department where armed officers are on campuses. And

12:15

so the way they deal with their students is not

12:17

through, there's rules that you break, but there's laws that

12:20

you break and you get tickets and you get arrested.

12:22

So that was kind of the context I

12:24

grew up in. And by the time I was in ninth grade,

12:26

I was selling drugs to get my

12:28

school clothes and failing out of school.

12:31

And they put all the kids who are

12:33

failing in the same classes. And then these

12:35

two young black organizers who actually graduated from

12:37

my school, went to college and came back.

12:39

They came into the classes and started working

12:41

with us and started teaching us community

12:43

organizing. And that's where I got politicized. And that's where

12:45

I started learning these concepts at first. So I had

12:47

read bell hooks when I was 14 at

12:50

the end of ninth grade. Five years before I

12:52

even went to prison. My

12:54

mentors, Vitaly and Mark Anthony Johnson and

12:56

Jason David, Patrice Cullors, these are the

12:58

people who mentored

13:01

me as a child. And so

13:03

I had started reading that when I was 14, 15, 16

13:06

years old, but there was still compartmentalization taking place

13:09

in that. I would try

13:11

to bring my homies to the march and I

13:13

would try to bring the movement to my homies

13:15

during the streets, but it didn't mesh. So

13:18

I was kind of being in both,

13:20

but that was always still my most supportive

13:22

community. So when I got locked up, I

13:25

was already aware, before I got locked up, when

13:27

I was in the streets, when I was gang

13:29

banging, I was already aware that I was making

13:31

patriarchal choices. I just didn't know how

13:33

else to be and still be seen as a

13:36

legitimate human. So when I

13:38

got into prison, I started

13:40

just reading bell hooks again on my

13:42

own, just like for myself. And

13:44

maybe it's just the nature of who I

13:46

am or

13:48

just, I can't just sit on it, but I was just

13:50

like, I need to share this with others because I was

13:53

seeing my brothers, the people I was locked

13:55

up with who I love, and I was like, suffering through the same

13:57

things. What made you see the people that

13:59

you were locked up with up with as people who

14:01

you love because I feel like that's also not

14:03

like a typical way that people look at the

14:05

other folks that are sharing a cell with them.

14:07

Or maybe that's just the way that it's perceived

14:09

like on the outside like this idea that it's like,

14:13

in prison, it's doggy

14:15

dog. Yeah,

14:18

it is that and it's also family building. You

14:21

know, like any other high pressure situation,

14:23

like there is that hyper individualism that

14:25

happens of I can only trust me

14:28

and I'm against everybody but there's also

14:30

the consolidation that happens where it's like

14:32

people build family and raise

14:34

each other and support each other. And

14:37

yeah, I was just raised an organizer, I truly

14:39

feel like an organizer in my heart. And I,

14:42

that conversation was not being had in prison. So it

14:44

started with me just like sharing with my celly, like

14:46

I had a celly at the time I was like

14:48

21, he was like 28. And

14:50

every time he referred to women, he referred to them as the B

14:53

word. And then I just remember asking

14:55

him like, do you only refer to women as the

14:57

B word? He was like, man, shut your

14:59

square ass up. Like, you know, whatever. But

15:01

he didn't hit me, the world didn't shatter. And

15:03

it was like me learning that like, I don't

15:05

just have to flow with this culture. Like I

15:07

can push back a little bit. And I just

15:10

built more and more confidence to the point where

15:12

when I transferred to a medium security prison, where

15:14

they had self help groups and stuff, but nobody

15:16

was talking about this, I was like, I'm gonna

15:18

try to talk about this here. Well,

15:24

y'all know I am big on

15:26

many things, one of them being

15:28

music and movies. And I

15:31

am a West Indian. And I'm very

15:33

excited about the new Bob Marley One

15:35

Love film. Basically, it's a movie that

15:37

really is going to give us some

15:39

insight into Bob Marley as a person,

15:41

which to me is the whole point

15:43

of these biopics. All right, we get

15:46

to see the story of such a

15:48

great artist and man, it's a celebration

15:50

of the life and legacy of Bob

15:52

Marley. Bob Marley One Love is coming

15:54

to a theater near you on February

15:56

14. The reviews are

15:58

in from McDonald's. Hotter, Juicier

16:00

Burgers. Let's hear what Hamburger has

16:03

to say. Rubble, Rubble. What

16:05

our old friend Hamburger said is,

16:08

The patties are juicier. The bun

16:10

is a thing of beauty. The

16:12

cheese perfectly melted. Rubble. My burger

16:14

dreams have come true. You

16:17

heard him folks. These are

16:19

McDonald's best burgers ever. Rubble.

16:24

Available at most restaurants in this area. Compares on McDonald's.

16:26

Be glad to see you, Mr. Prime Burgers. So

16:30

I'm coming from a completely ignorant place. Like, I

16:33

feel like what you are talking about, what you're

16:36

teaching is enlightening. And I feel like these spaces

16:38

are absolutely not really about trying to enlighten folks

16:40

that are in these spaces. And so how much

16:43

support were you given within the actual, like, prison

16:45

to start this program? Or is that something that

16:47

they were trying to do with different inmates? They

16:50

were actually one. I feel like you would be

16:52

open to this. Can I tell you about the

16:54

word inmate? Please tell me those people did not

16:56

say. Yes. I

16:58

wouldn't say what you're supposed to do or quote

17:00

unquote supposed to do or what not supposed to

17:02

do. No, but please school me because I don't

17:04

know. Thank you. It's a slur for real. Inmate

17:09

is like a word that's

17:11

used, one, to dehumanize incarcerated people to

17:13

make them something else. Two,

17:16

it's a word to, like, pacify all

17:18

of us into normalizing incarceration. Because

17:21

it's much harder to say people don't

17:24

deserve to see their families. Children

17:26

don't deserve to go outside than it is to

17:28

say inmates don't deserve to see their families. Or

17:30

inmates don't deserve to go outside. And it just

17:32

gives us this idea that people in there is

17:35

like, like, quote unquote, inmates at a hospital. Like,

17:37

we're just here. No, we're not here. We're being

17:39

held captive. If we try to leave, they

17:41

will shoot us in the head. Like, this

17:43

extremely violent situation that everyday people are supporting

17:45

every day. And I feel like it's helpful

17:47

to just name it as such. So the

17:49

proper nomenclature would be incarcerated person. Yeah, I

17:51

would just anything that has the word person

17:53

in it. Person who's convicted of rape, person

17:55

who's convicted of murder, person who is incarcerated.

17:57

Like, then we can deal with it. a

18:00

person can be transformed. A murderer is

18:02

a piece of trash. Hmm. All

18:05

right, Richie, come on now.

18:07

Gather me up. Gather me

18:09

up. Oh,

18:12

I appreciate you. But to answer your

18:15

question, there's a self-help culture and

18:17

like an apparatus for starting self-help

18:19

groups that was fought for by

18:21

incarcerated people over the course of

18:23

decades. So that because at first in

18:25

California, anybody in prison had to go through the parole

18:28

board to go home. Then in the 70s, they changed

18:30

it. So some people had determinate sentences where you just

18:32

go home and your sentence is up. But

18:34

either way, a lot of people, a

18:37

quarter of the people in the California prison system are

18:39

lifers and need to go to the parole board to

18:41

go home and are asked all these questions about

18:44

their level of remorse and their level of

18:46

responsibility and their understanding of what happened. And

18:48

there is no spaces to actually build that

18:50

understanding. So incarcerated people fought for

18:52

spaces to actually build those understandings and that's

18:55

where the self-help groups in prison came from.

18:57

So by the time I got to a

18:59

prison that was mostly lifers solid at the

19:01

time, there's a lot of self-help groups

19:04

to help dudes learn how to

19:06

understand those concepts and get out of

19:08

prison through the parole board. But there

19:10

wasn't any self-help groups that were talking

19:12

about patriarchy. So I use that apparatus

19:15

doing my first workshop in somebody else's group. That's why

19:17

I got laughed out the room. And then we got

19:19

in my blood. What did

19:21

you say that was so shockingly humorous to

19:23

them? Everything, everything.

19:25

I wasn't really set up for success anyway. The

19:28

group was ran by dudes who had been in

19:30

prison longer than I had been alive. So they're

19:32

like, here comes this youngster with whatever the fuck

19:34

he's going to talk about, you know what I'm

19:36

saying? And I'm talking about

19:39

something that is kind of like inherently

19:41

challenging to everybody in the room. And

19:43

at that time, I was

19:45

also talking about it in a way that

19:47

I don't feel like was super like inviting.

19:51

Something that we learned in success stories is

19:53

like, don't teach connect. If

19:55

you model vulnerability and you say, here's how I

19:58

deal with my patriarchy, that invites people. into

20:00

a conversation as opposed to here's what

20:02

you should do because you have patriarchy,

20:04

right? Yeah. And I wasn't fully like

20:07

the pointing finger vibes, but it was enough

20:09

that nobody was feeling what I was talking

20:11

about. I'm just picturing it. And

20:14

like, it's a film, by

20:16

the way, but I'm

20:19

just picturing it because I know

20:21

you went in there like, I'm about to burn this

20:23

shit down. Why should I have thought I was

20:25

on? I have my little

20:27

notebook. They

20:30

were not feeling me at all. What's

20:34

up? Oppression is up, brother. So

20:40

talk to me about how this transformed

20:42

because, you know, some of the footage

20:44

that I've seen has been

20:47

really just illuminating to see how

20:49

responsive the folks in the room

20:51

of all different ages and ethnic

20:54

backgrounds and I'm sure different convictions, etc.

20:56

You know, they were responsive in such

20:58

thoughtful and grounded and compassionate ways, which

21:00

one just attaches to the concept of

21:03

like, this idea that if someone is

21:05

an incarcerated person that they are, they're

21:07

done like they're it's a wrap. Like

21:09

there's no real value for their soul

21:11

anymore. And so that's why they need

21:13

to be tucked away and forgotten, etc,

21:15

etc. There's nothing redemptive there. But, you

21:18

know, this was like on a very basic

21:20

level. It's just like, well, here you can

21:23

see proof otherwise. And sometimes people just don't,

21:26

they don't even consider having to consider something until

21:28

like something is shown to them. And like, that

21:31

was also what I was seeing about these men, like

21:33

they never had to consider something until something was shown

21:35

to them. So what do you feel like was

21:38

the point where you started to figure out, okay,

21:40

they listen to now? Like, what was that point? Like, how

21:42

did that feel? It was when

21:44

we truly learned to connect instead of

21:46

educate. Because the what you

21:49

see in the film, the feminist on cell

21:51

block Y was shot after

21:54

we had been running the program for four years. So

21:57

we had learned a lot the very first patriarchy

21:59

workshop we did. We were all in small groups.

22:02

We would read these excerpts

22:04

from Bell Hook's books and

22:06

discuss them. And

22:09

it didn't really work because not even the facilitators

22:11

were on board. And it

22:13

just was giving school vibes. Yeah, it

22:15

took years to even organize the facilitators.

22:18

Nobody was filling me, Amanda. Nobody.

22:21

Like, no one. Thank God

22:23

I had a community, like I said, of women

22:25

and non-binary people on the outside so I didn't

22:27

feel like a complete fucking weirdo on the inside.

22:30

Why did they think it was so fucking weird? People

22:33

in prison? The facilitators. For the same

22:35

reason white people don't want to talk about racism. Because

22:38

it's uncomfortable and it's where they've learned to

22:40

build their needs and their confidence in as

22:42

a human being. Yeah. So

22:45

what made you say, I need to keep doing this? I

22:47

mean, there wasn't much else to do. No,

22:49

there was plenty to do. I was in college

22:51

at full time. I was taking a bunch of

22:53

other groups. I was learning Spanish. I was like

22:55

in a whole ass relationship. I had plenty to

22:57

do. Wait. I was trying. It's like,

22:59

what are you talking about? I had a whole very

23:01

slow life. I

23:05

was very busy in prison, truly, and have been busy

23:07

ever since. I'm trying to unlearn the grind culture that

23:09

I taught myself in prison. It's really, we're talking about

23:11

the side effects of it. Prison really forces that in

23:13

you in a different way because you have to be

23:16

so excellent to get out. It's like,

23:18

you can't just be normal. If you're just seen

23:20

as another quote unquote inmate, they're never going to let

23:22

you go. So you have to

23:24

be like, it's super excellent ass.

23:26

Yeah, I trained my body to work 18 hours

23:28

a day. And now it's taking me years to

23:31

untrain it from that. No

23:33

breaks 18 hours a day, seven days a

23:35

week for years. It's very difficult to undo

23:37

that. What are you doing to undo it?

23:39

Like what are your methods? Taking

23:41

time to just try to do nothing, which

23:43

oftentimes leads to me just like crying and

23:45

feeling like shit because

23:48

my body is like addicted to

23:50

productivity as its means of telling

23:53

myself I'm doing the right thing and I'm

23:55

doing good. I did too much. The legislative

23:57

organization we're talking about, Initiate Justice co-founded that

23:59

in and success stories, co-founded that in prison.

24:01

My production company, Question Culture, which is my

24:03

full-time work now, started that in prison. I

24:05

was learning the fucking language. I was doing

24:07

this group, so I was reading 10 books

24:09

a year. I was learning, like, I was

24:11

doing too much. And it's

24:13

like now when I try to do nothing, my

24:16

body like rejects it and I end up like

24:18

crying and hating myself and just having to tell

24:20

myself, you're fine, this is just called resting, keep

24:23

doing it. Yeah. Are

24:26

you in therapy for this? I

24:28

was in therapy for a minute. I need to

24:30

get back into it for real. Have you tried

24:32

EMDR? No, what's that? EMDR

24:35

is a type of therapy that

24:37

focuses on using basically

24:39

like rapid eye movement to retrain

24:42

how your brain responds to things.

24:45

And for those who have gone through

24:47

like talk therapy and have kind of

24:49

hit a wall with that, it is

24:52

another form of therapy that is related

24:54

to kind of a more practical application

24:56

beyond like the searching, because a lot

24:58

of us, you've

25:01

searched, you've found like, you know the math.

25:03

Like you just explained it. You were like, I've

25:05

worked too hard, my body just wants to do

25:07

this, so this is why I do this. Like, you know the

25:09

math, but that doesn't mean you know the tools or

25:12

that doesn't mean you know how to like undo

25:14

the thing. And some of it

25:17

is so innate in our cellular

25:19

structure, right? And in our actual like

25:22

brain mapping, that there has to be

25:24

like an active dedicated effort towards that

25:26

versus just like talking to ourselves,

25:28

right? And so EMDR

25:31

is this method that you essentially like

25:33

tap into a memory and they basically,

25:36

your eye movement is attached to

25:38

how your brain responds to things

25:41

and so you basically retrain your

25:43

brain on how to respond to

25:45

something using eye movement. Whoa,

25:47

that's really cool. And I've heard

25:49

that it's quite successful. I've heard people said that

25:51

it has been very helpful to them in

25:54

terms of just on a basic note, like

25:57

Managing a toxicity versus like. Working.

26:00

Through a tacit like you know the sand

26:03

like working through that and I mean so

26:05

that the x I had that looks just

26:07

like you ah he sees I had to

26:09

put a rocking chair in the room because

26:11

I would wanna in the morning I would

26:14

want to pillow talk and is you know

26:16

hang out in the bed he could not

26:18

do it because from being incarcerated he was

26:20

like a has to get out of bed

26:23

like I have to leave never that has

26:25

to be like active and lying in bed

26:27

feals crazy like and it like hurts me

26:29

so like. Even getting up and going

26:31

to a another place and likes of the

26:34

chair has movements like even says that was

26:36

like a coping mechanism so to speak. Of

26:38

course he was fine with other than the

26:40

morning but the problem is that. Nascent

26:42

was the issue. A society

26:44

as a Best Buy or.

26:47

Explains a me. What is

26:49

Feminism to you? Feminism

26:51

as the active undoing of

26:53

pitcher Who structures and culture.

26:57

So. Like thinking about patriarchy like are

26:59

saying earlier that idea the domination of

27:01

power. And. That like. says.

27:04

Maleness is. The

27:06

living embodiment of that. The idea has

27:08

worked itself into every structure. It's the

27:11

corporate structure. It's the revenge base prison

27:13

structure. It's the court structure. It's our

27:15

relationship structure. The structure. the marriage. Like

27:17

all so lengths I've learned more about.

27:19

That's how about the sexes of marriage?

27:22

People obsess about that. I busted him

27:24

when he's out. The baddest. I mean.

27:26

marriage. Literally invented as the slavery of

27:28

women like they called slavery. Black people,

27:31

chattel slavery, and they called the slavery

27:33

of women. Marriage is really like. There's

27:35

this. Yeah, those

27:37

made up the trade. women as property.

27:39

Yeah cause patriarchy happen first. at the

27:42

end of the neolithic era when people

27:44

started farming, certain people were like well

27:46

we farm, Then we need private property

27:48

to say what land is mine. So

27:51

that I know what food is mine

27:53

and therefore what we're doing before. Where.

27:55

People. had kids and everybody raise everybody's like now

27:58

i need to know what children are mine because

28:00

I need to know who I can make work this farm

28:02

and who I'm responsible to feed. And in order to know

28:04

what children is mine, I need to know what woman is

28:06

mine. And boom, you get

28:08

marriage. And then that goes

28:10

to Europe and then gets Christianized and then

28:13

they use Christianity as a weapon, as a

28:15

sword to hold to all of our necks

28:17

to colonize the entire planet. So now here

28:19

we have monogamous marriage as the normative culture

28:21

that we're all treated like is just regular

28:24

when it's actually very new to humans. I

28:26

mean, Brandy and Monica knew about it because they said the boy

28:29

is mine. You know? Well,

28:35

y'all know I am big on many

28:37

things. One of them being music

28:39

and movies. And I

28:41

am a West Indian and I'm very

28:43

excited about the new Bob Marley, One

28:46

Love film. Basically it's a movie that

28:48

really is gonna give us some insight

28:50

into Bob Marley as a person, which

28:52

to me is the whole point of

28:54

these biopics, all right? We get to

28:56

see the story of such a great

28:59

artist and man. It's a celebration of

29:01

the life and legacy of Bob Marley.

29:03

Bob Marley, One Love is coming to

29:05

a theater near you on February 14th.

29:08

The reviews are in from McDonald's

29:10

hotter, juicier burgers. Let's hear what

29:13

Hamburglar has to say. Rubble,

29:15

rubble. What our old friend Hamburglar

29:17

said is, the patties are

29:19

juicier. The bun is a thing of

29:22

beauty. The cheese perfectly melted. Rubble. My

29:25

burger dreams have come true. You

29:27

heard him folks. These are

29:30

McDonald's best burgers ever. Rubble.

29:34

Rubble available at most restaurants in this area.

29:36

Come here, some McDonald's and burgers. I

29:41

think for a lot of us,

29:43

these concepts are so just naturalized,

29:45

right? Like they're so organic to

29:49

the way that we live that it feels

29:51

for a lot of people, Like

29:53

challenging them is undermining the way

29:56

that we exist. Like I Saw

29:58

someone on my Instagram yesterday. They

30:00

say without man made ideas we're

30:02

would be these. And.

30:06

Thing as an interesting concept.

30:09

And it was in response to the

30:11

idea that you know religion is a

30:13

mammy Times as you know that ideas of

30:15

heaven and hell are mammy concepts and

30:17

there may be true to them but ultimately

30:19

like they are drawn from. Us

30:22

As humans, we're like. Thing

30:24

is how it is and deciding

30:26

on it that's the to be

30:28

a tool for elevation or form,

30:30

oppression etc. But when you're in

30:32

the prison system and you're a

30:34

busy and you're doing everything you're

30:36

doing and you're cheating these classes.

30:39

What Are you starting to see? In.

30:42

Like a tangible way shift with them.

30:44

And that you're working with that a thing we

30:46

weren't He's in classes we're holding speak okay on

30:48

the head to very very about the language. okay

30:50

yes, know when he wakes. They've made such a

30:53

big difference. When

30:55

they thought the i'm i'm not trying to do

30:58

the fake moping where they don't say this to

31:00

say this I'm like literally trying to describe something

31:02

else could when we were teaching classes a didn't

31:04

they were wasn't working right? So when when you

31:06

holding a base. More. Was like the says since

31:08

you started to see a said all. Outside

31:11

of the room people didn't get in

31:13

the same by said they otherwise would.

31:16

Because now we have an accountability to each

31:18

other. When. People were like thinking of

31:20

doing something that outside of their own integrity to. We

31:22

never went in there and said this is right this

31:24

is wrong that never works with the fucker. you your

31:26

imprisoned just like me man with the we had to

31:29

say who do you wanna be. And

31:31

now let's look at the ways that patriarchy

31:33

has gotten in the way of that, because

31:35

we open up every season of success stories

31:37

of people doing their top five with the

31:40

top five most important people and goals and

31:42

it always comes back to community and love

31:44

that they're They're close as love, relationships and

31:46

taking care of those people and fulfilling themselves.

31:49

So. Patriarchy leaves no room for

31:51

that. Patriarchy is about duty. So.

31:53

We're just holding people accountable to what they said was

31:56

important to them. So now, if you're about to go

31:58

fight a dude over a fifty dollar bag. weed,

32:00

you're going to talk to us first, because

32:03

you have people who actually care about

32:05

what you care about. You're not just

32:07

performing patriarchy all day. So

32:09

yeah, we were keeping each other safe. And that's

32:11

what we continue to do as we come home.

32:14

Coming home is extremely difficult. All of us

32:16

have been in toxic relationships. All

32:18

of us have been in like fucked

32:21

up financial situations. A lot

32:23

of us have gotten reincarcerated. Who cares?

32:25

We care. We keep each

32:27

other safe. We check in regularly and be

32:29

like, what's going on with you? Are

32:32

your actions lining up with who you want to be?

32:35

How are these systems and these cultures pushing and

32:37

pulling you to be someone besides who you really

32:39

like God born want to be? And

32:42

I will hold you accountable to who you want to be. And

32:44

please do the same for me. So if

32:46

you have trouble with boundaries, and

32:48

people are taking advantage of you, which is very

32:50

common, I got a homie who

32:53

like me is very quick to give

32:55

people money, very quick to try to fix. You

32:58

get out of prison feeling like you're a piece

33:00

of shit. Everybody was in consensus that you don't

33:02

deserve shit. When you're in prison, everybody in the

33:04

world is in consensus that you deserve to be

33:06

there. So you begin to see yourself as less

33:08

than. So then you get out here and want

33:10

to show you're a good person. So every time

33:12

somebody needs whatever, help me pay my rent, help

33:14

me this, help me that, especially when you get

33:16

intimate relationships in the mix, which you didn't have

33:18

for a long time. It gets

33:21

very messy. So I got homeboys straight up. I'm

33:23

like, yo, before you fuck with somebody else, like,

33:25

tell me, bro, I'm recording. I'm requesting that you tell

33:27

me. And the homie was like, you're asking me to

33:29

check in with you before every time I fuck somebody.

33:32

I was like, you're the one who's telling me every time

33:34

you fuck somebody, it fucks up your boundaries. You give all

33:36

your money away. So yes, in support of you, I am

33:38

making that request. You're an intense person. Am

33:40

I? I'm a

33:42

Scorpio. Ah, there it is. There

33:45

it is. As a cancer, I

33:47

relate. Period. I

33:50

relate. How do you feel like the

33:53

CEOs and the people at the

33:55

prison who are, I guess, supposedly

34:00

you know, in authority positions responded to

34:02

this work. They were anti. They

34:04

were hella anti. They tried to put me in

34:06

the hole for doing this. Shut the fuck. Yeah,

34:09

because they have their own political games that they're

34:11

playing with like what group is whose and I'm

34:14

this captain so and so and I support this

34:16

group and I'm lieutenant so and so and I

34:18

support this group and they use that and

34:20

their quote unquote pro rehabilitative stance, which is a

34:22

myth. There's no no such thing as a pro

34:24

rehabilitative prison. You can't rehabilitate me with a gun

34:27

to my fucking head. But that's the game they

34:29

like to play and sell the public and used

34:31

to get their own, you know,

34:33

promotions or whatever. And

34:35

I'm an abolitionist. I'm not here to buddy

34:37

up next to no cop or whatever. I'll

34:39

use whatever resources I need to use that

34:42

I can be in integrity with to get something done. But

34:45

we were really for the people and they did not fuck

34:47

with that. They still don't fuck with me for real like,

34:51

you know, like, yeah, and I've been

34:53

home for five years. So, yeah, they tried to

34:55

put me in the hole behind some. He said

34:57

she said whatever because the some captain had his

35:00

group who he wanted to support. And we were

35:02

fighting to get signed off on

35:04

as an official group. And the captain,

35:06

there was two different captains who can sign off on

35:08

it. And one of them didn't because he was secretly

35:10

playing political games. So he thought I wouldn't have access

35:12

to the other one. I made that shit happen and

35:14

I got that shit signed off. And when he found

35:17

out about it, because I guess there's only

35:19

so many slots for new groups or whatever. And

35:21

he wanted his group. He tried to write me

35:23

up for manipulating staff, which can get you more

35:25

time in prison, like literally playing with my life

35:27

for his little yeah, literally that can get you

35:30

sent to the hole. When you go to the

35:32

hole, you get more time. Yeah,

35:34

literally playing with my life for the little

35:36

political games. They're the same. The cops in

35:38

the military are gang bangers, too. They're just

35:40

doing it for American flags instead of red

35:42

and blue rags. But it's the same concept.

35:44

I'm going to do violence on behalf. Yeah,

35:46

I did not mean for that to rhyme. I

35:49

was like, OK, Cole. They

35:55

I know now I'm trying to remember. You said

35:57

that the cops and you feel like symbolism.

36:00

It's still for patriarchy. It's still for ego. It's

36:02

still like for institution It's still based on the

36:04

idea that we have to beat each other to

36:06

win rather than we have to be in community

36:08

with each other to win When

36:11

I listen to you talk, it's

36:13

just so glaring how successful this

36:16

society has made prison

36:19

a foreign Space

36:21

for like civilians quote unquote, right? Like

36:24

there's this there there's been

36:26

a successful chasm created That

36:28

if you're not In the

36:30

midst of this like it's so easy to just not

36:32

have to Consider it like

36:34

that's the goal, right? Because you're

36:37

saying things i'm like even as many dudes

36:39

i've dated who and i've loved Who have

36:41

done time? It's like i've never had to

36:43

go visit any of them In

36:46

prison because they had already, you know left

36:48

and I never had to like do

36:50

a bid with them so like there's certain things that

36:52

I like just only know from like the locks records

36:55

and and just like

36:57

from like being just a knowledgeable person right

36:59

who like seeks out information and curiosity and

37:03

When I hear these conversations around like

37:05

there's no such thing as like pro

37:07

rehabilitation It only again brings up the

37:10

reality that like prison as a function

37:12

is non- it's like completely dysfunctional and

37:15

for the people who are listening

37:17

and watching How

37:20

do you conceptualize for them A

37:22

vision of what prison looks like where

37:24

a group like this can thrive, right?

37:26

Where like the teaching doesn't have to

37:29

just happen. It's not the teaching the

37:31

sharing doesn't have to just happen in

37:34

the room but is

37:36

actually Like being supported

37:38

outside of the room in the cell, you

37:40

know at the mess hall, etc Etc Like

37:42

what does that vision look like for you?

37:44

Because I know a lot of people when

37:46

people talk about like defunding the police or

37:49

when people talk about abolishing prison They can't

37:51

see it. Yes, because they've been convinced that

37:53

their needs can only be met if other

37:55

people's needs are not met So

37:58

no, I don't have a vision to get to anybody

38:00

where human beings can thrive within

38:03

prison. I don't believe that's a thing. No, I'm

38:05

not saying, no, I'm saying what does it look

38:07

like for, okay, people do things in society

38:10

that are harmful. What happens

38:12

to those people? In your,

38:14

in your, in your vision, what

38:18

should happen? And I'm saying this because

38:20

I think so many people, it's very

38:22

basic, you did some fuck shit, you

38:24

got to get fucked now, which we've

38:26

attached to patriarchy, this idea of dominance,

38:28

this idea of like eye for an

38:30

eye, this Machiavellian response to things. In

38:33

your brilliance, can

38:35

you conceptualize a version

38:38

of rehabilitation for

38:40

people that doesn't involve having a gun

38:42

to your head to get to the

38:44

trauma that caused you to traumatize another?

38:46

Yeah, I would encourage people to look at how

38:48

they deal with harm in their own families. Oftentimes

38:51

when harm happens in our family, we don't say

38:53

fuck that person, kill that person, burn them at

38:55

the stake. We say, how do we deal, we

38:57

still love this person. So how

38:59

do we deal with the harm and

39:01

transform their behavior while maintaining the love

39:03

for this person and keeping them in

39:05

community as much as possible? For

39:08

the first 199,000 years of human

39:10

history, indigenous communities kept each other

39:12

safe by caring for one another, and

39:14

they still do largely. And that's what we do

39:17

in our own families as well. This

39:19

whole idea of prison as punishment is extremely

39:21

new. It was not invented until 1865 at

39:24

the Reformation of Slavery. The

39:26

United States saw no need for prisons

39:29

until the 13th Amendment where

39:31

shadow slavery got reformed into only

39:33

being legal as punishment for a

39:35

crime. Then they started

39:37

transforming literal whole ass plantations

39:39

into prisons, like the Angola

39:41

State Penitentiary in Louisiana, which

39:43

was the Angola plantation. And

39:46

then it wasn't until even 60 years

39:48

after that, until the early 1920s where

39:50

we really started having organized

39:52

police forces so policing

39:55

and the police prison system as we know it is only

39:57

about 100 years old. So I know it can be

40:00

hard to envision a world without it because

40:02

they've done a very good job of convincing

40:04

us that it's normal. Yeah, but it truly

40:07

is marketing. Like a very easy

40:09

history lessons and study of history will show

40:11

us millions and billions of ways that

40:13

people have existed without prisons. So I can tell

40:15

you about some of them, but we don't have

40:18

enough time. I really just try to

40:20

say the most basic one, which is... I don't want

40:22

to hear one vision. I didn't ask for all the

40:24

vision. Your own family. If your mama called

40:26

you right now and said, baby, I killed somebody, how

40:29

would you deal with that? You wouldn't

40:31

be like, cool, fuck them. No, of course you

40:33

would care about that. And you

40:35

would be invested in transforming the conditions

40:37

and the behaviors that led to that

40:39

violence and to healing those victims to

40:42

whatever extent is possible. I

40:44

think you're idealistic in that. I

40:46

genuinely think... No, I do this in real

40:48

life. I just responded to a domestic violence

40:51

on Saturday. I'm tired as fuck. You are

40:53

like this. But our

40:55

society, the same society that convinced

40:57

folks that prison is cool or

40:59

not cool, but prison is sufficient.

41:01

It makes sense. The same society

41:03

that upholds the patriarchal concepts that

41:05

you are so steadfast at breaking

41:08

down for folks. That

41:10

society itself is traumatized into

41:14

actually... I think there is

41:16

far less community than there needs to be

41:18

around. I know plenty of people who if

41:21

somebody in their family did some fuck shit, they'd

41:23

be like, go ahead. I

41:25

mean, there's this idea that you

41:27

committed a crime, you're done. You're

41:30

not valuable anymore because you, even

41:33

especially if you willfully did something, that

41:35

what use are you now? So

41:37

that's why I was asking, within

41:40

the real world context of the fact

41:43

that there does have to be a

41:45

shifting of minds around this, there's so

41:47

many... The patriarchy that

41:49

causes for a need to have

41:52

a prison feminism space is

41:54

so rooted so deep down that

41:56

it's the same way that when I ask people, picture

41:59

a world without raised them and they're like, I don't

42:01

even know what that is. But it's

42:03

like, if you can't envision it, how do you like

42:06

actualize towards it? And I feel

42:08

like there's a step before,

42:12

I mean, I was looking for like a more practical

42:14

concept of just like, okay, what

42:16

does that love look like in actuality?

42:19

Like, because the reality is that I

42:21

don't know that there's such a thing

42:23

as a safe society where someone harms

42:25

you, and they are allowed

42:27

to still have access to you. There

42:29

is definitely going to have to be boundaries. That's

42:32

not the same as prison, which is

42:35

punishment. Touche. Yeah, their access to

42:37

you might have to change it likely will.

42:40

As an abolitionist, I have to practice

42:42

very strong boundaries every day. And

42:44

it doesn't require cops with guns that get

42:46

bigger and bigger every year to do that. And

42:49

it's also like what kind of society are we

42:51

building that is putting people in the position to

42:54

harm each other in such wild ways? Because when

42:56

I was a kid, I was very young, but

42:58

I was in school when Columbine happened, which was

43:00

a big deal, because it was like the first

43:02

school shooting. Now they happen so

43:04

often that they don't even make the news anymore.

43:06

The conditions are getting worse. But what else is

43:09

happening? We have an economy where the average person

43:11

is not going to be able to work themselves

43:13

out of working poverty. We

43:15

have a society where, like you said, we have

43:17

less and less community, like our parents always say,

43:19

like, back in my day, we all knew each

43:21

other's kids and left our doors open. And like,

43:24

you go to a lot of countries that

43:26

are more close to their indigenous roots, they

43:28

still live like that. We're farther and farther

43:30

away. We're more and more individualized. We're deeper,

43:32

deeper rooted in the idea that my needs

43:34

are at odds with your needs, which will

43:36

mean people will try ways to get over

43:38

on each other. Some will be quote unquote,

43:40

legal, some will be quote unquote, not which

43:43

are invented concepts. And the world will become

43:45

more and more violent. So as a people

43:47

as a community, we need to turn

43:49

back to each other and build those

43:51

stronger ties and we can stop that

43:53

more serious harm from happening and we'll

43:55

have more strength to hold boundaries without

43:57

needing the police ever. Oh.

44:04

Well, y'all know I am big

44:06

on many things. One of them

44:08

being music and movies, and

44:11

I am a West Indian, and I'm

44:13

very excited about the new Bob Marley,

44:15

one love film. Basically, it's a movie

44:17

that really is gonna give us some

44:19

insight into Bob Marley as a person,

44:21

which to me is the whole point

44:24

of these biopics, all right? We get

44:26

to see the story of such a

44:28

great artist and man. It's a celebration

44:30

of the life and legacy of Bob

44:32

Marley. Bob Marley, One Love is coming

44:34

to a theater near you on February

44:37

14th. The reviews are

44:39

in from McDonald's hotter, juicier burgers.

44:41

Let's hear what Hamburglar has to

44:43

say. Rubble, rubble. What our

44:46

old friend Hamburglar said is, the

44:48

patties are juicier. The bun is a

44:51

thing of beauty. The cheese perfectly melted.

44:53

Rubble. My burger dreams have

44:55

come true. You heard him, folks.

44:58

These are McDonald's best burgers

45:00

ever. Bottom of the

45:02

bottle. Rubble, available at must-have-starts. That's

45:05

in this area, comparison of McDonald's classic burgers to

45:07

prior burgers. I

45:10

just don't want to get off the topic

45:12

of prison feminisms because what intrigued me so

45:14

much about the conversation was not that it

45:16

was happening in prison, but that it really

45:18

needs to be happening everywhere, right? It's

45:21

not like these men who are in prison are

45:23

very far in

45:25

their enacting of patriarchy from

45:27

those who have not been

45:30

incarcerated. They just actualize it in

45:32

a different way that may have

45:34

got them caught up in a

45:36

humbug. Where do you see patriarchy

45:38

existing within your

45:41

own community now that you're outside that you feel

45:43

like is an effort that you feel like you

45:45

need to really continue to

45:47

pay attention to, to give attention to? I

45:50

mean, patriarchy is the dominant culture, so. I

45:52

always say, if you're not swimming against a

45:54

river, you're flowing with it. So

45:57

I Can tell you what the latest looks

45:59

like. In my own patriarchy battles

46:01

of myself if the women is

46:03

like. Yeah. Which for me

46:06

something that I came into. I was called

46:08

into a lot of accountability earlier this year

46:10

by my best friend is non binary fan

46:12

who just pointed out to me. How

46:14

much My own compartmentalization has done so

46:16

much damage? Working.

46:18

On compartmentalization has been the latest frontier

46:20

of working on patriarchy for me. So

46:22

for me that looks like if you

46:24

me and your ex who looks like

46:26

me are friends and I know that

46:29

he is walking around with stories and

46:31

his head that are damaging to you

46:33

on a daily basis is not just

46:35

me being like what you gotta talk

46:37

to men about that they managed to

46:39

do a me as like me being

46:41

like no I'm not going to silently

46:43

sign off on you even having an

46:45

internal story that can lead to harming

46:47

Amanda I need. To lean in, Any

46:49

to use all my six foot

46:52

four of fuckin privilege and Uday.

46:54

I hear that same. Are

46:56

you fucking kidding me? Amanda I am your

46:59

eggs. I came here. This is meat and

47:01

a toxic leave. Us,

47:04

especially when we wouldn't even be surprised if

47:06

you're like. That said,

47:08

the i feel like you're literally doppelganger unless he

47:10

says he's the exact opposite of our lives. And.

47:14

So your friend called that out.

47:17

Because. They felt that

47:20

you were not challenging yourself

47:22

to challenge those types of

47:24

examples of how toxic masculinity

47:26

displays itself. Because she was harmed

47:28

by me. Because. I'm so close

47:30

with her as fab. There's other women in my

47:33

life was dated or been friends with and and

47:35

when they so hard by me they go to

47:37

her. So she's like brothers ways that you're showing

47:39

up with certain friends. That. You're not

47:42

showing up with these other women in your

47:44

life and it's leading to harm. So

47:48

you gotta. You gotta be more aware of how

47:50

he has. were taught to compartmentalize, were taught that

47:52

it's a good thing were taught that you separate

47:54

work. So okay, so friendship and name in it

47:56

sounds like. you being cool with me but you

47:58

be in a jackass and a prank over here. And

48:00

in your mind, it's like this is in this bucket

48:02

and this is in this bucket. Yeah, I

48:05

don't know about jackass and a prick, but just like

48:07

definitely I'm going up

48:09

differently. Yeah, but harm is so

48:11

much more complicated than just like active

48:13

choices to be harmful. It's based in

48:15

the conditions and understandings of the moment,

48:17

you know, I don't know how to say

48:19

it in like a short way. Imagine someone dating you

48:21

this is difficult.

48:25

Me neither. I don't date no more. I

48:27

actually stopped truly. I just build

48:29

friendships I

48:33

mean, yes, harm is a broad term.

48:36

But a lot of times it

48:38

really is not intentional. That's the

48:40

jackass prick of it. It's it's

48:42

the intentionality of it. Yeah. And

48:44

therefore, like undoing it takes like a type

48:47

of listening. There's another one that's maybe like

48:49

a little easier to name. A

48:51

real feminist skill that I've been building

48:53

in 2023 is listening, like

48:56

truly listening, listening to

48:58

understand listening to believe.

49:00

Yeah, believe. Yeah,

49:03

shout out my best friend, hey, one asked for from

49:05

the abolition dream lab who taught me these concepts. Listening

49:08

to believe it is not what

49:10

we're taught to do in a domination based patriarchal

49:13

society. It's we're taught to

49:15

listen to respond.

49:18

Yes. Or what I was doing, which

49:20

I thought was fucking lit was listen to be objective.

49:22

Well, I'll hear your side of the story. I'll hear

49:24

your side of story. I'll hear my side story. We're

49:27

going to all put them on the wall of objectivity

49:29

and we'll decide what quote unquote really happened like they

49:31

do in fucking court. That's not a thing. There

49:34

is no wall of objectivity. There's your story and

49:36

there's my story. I can listen to you. And

49:38

there might be things in your story like there's

49:41

things that when we did our listening circle that she

49:43

said that I'm dead ass like, yo, I don't remember that

49:45

happening. I remember that very differently. But rather than use

49:47

that as a point of like now my story has

49:49

to beat your story and you have to cry uncle and

49:51

say my story is right. It's let me just listen

49:53

to the fact that that has been your story and

49:55

what that has meant for you and

49:57

what it now means how it now transforms me to

49:59

know. that's what's been informing how you show up.

50:02

And there will be time later for me to share my

50:04

story and us to come to a collective

50:06

story. We call in our friends around us

50:08

so it's not just us two, but there's

50:11

more people building a collective story and that's

50:13

how the healing is done. But in the

50:15

moment, let me just be transformed. Let me

50:17

just watch your experience like I'm watching the

50:19

movie, which you as the main character and

50:22

not interrupt it with the commercial of my

50:24

experience. I'm just going

50:26

to learn what it's like to be you and

50:28

what that means for me as somebody who's in

50:31

relationship to you. And that's listening to transform. And

50:33

these are, yeah, these are the feminist

50:35

skills that I've really been. It took me a

50:38

lot of crying. It was like emotional pushups to

50:40

have to listen

50:42

to stories that I

50:44

experienced differently and just

50:46

listen to them. Why the tears? Like

50:49

what hurt? It hurt because my story and

50:51

my understanding of myself also has to do

50:53

with how I kept myself safe. It

50:56

is my understanding of myself can feel like

50:58

it is myself. It was the pain of

51:00

pulling those things apart. Everybody don't have to

51:02

see me like I see me for me

51:04

to be me. And

51:06

especially when I've had deeply traumatic experiences like incarceration,

51:09

it's like you get out and do the best

51:11

you can. And then you have people closest to

51:13

you saying, yo, when you were doing a million

51:15

things trying to start all those organizations, here's all

51:17

the harm you did, because you actually

51:19

didn't follow up with that person. Or you actually put

51:21

this person in power when they weren't ready to and

51:23

they did a bunch of harm. Or you actually, right,

51:26

you start hearing all these stories of like

51:28

the actual impact of moving so fast. And

51:31

it's like, damn, this hurts because

51:33

I was literally told that I

51:35

was a piece of shit who is not worth a

51:37

fucking piece of bread. And

51:39

had to fight my ass off to get out and

51:41

try to build things for other people to live better

51:43

lives. And now you're telling me I hurt you? Are

51:45

you fucking serious? It's like

51:48

I had to learn like, yes, I did hurt

51:50

them. And that doesn't mean that I didn't have

51:52

good intentions or I didn't, whatever it's but those

51:54

things led to harm. The side

51:56

effects of prison feminism is a lot of people

51:58

have been harmed by success. This program for

52:00

them: Feminism. And. It's been the

52:02

people who are closest to us. It's been

52:05

a suspend. The people who work there, The

52:07

people who facilitate it because where humans. says.

52:10

Okay, well that's not the side effects. Of

52:12

frozen feminism say this. Episode Like

52:14

I think it's unfair to

52:17

qualify The reality is that

52:19

in doing harm, candidates can

52:21

happen like exactly this. In

52:24

but inevitable harm can happen

52:26

right legacy There then harm

52:28

can happen because people in

52:31

general are just real available

52:33

for harm because. We're.

52:35

Coming with an entire history that we

52:38

don't even know. You.

52:40

Mean, like we don't even know our own history

52:42

in ourselves? Like this is that happen within the

52:44

first years of life that we don't even fucking

52:46

remember? Like in our consciousness. With that, we remember

52:48

in our bodies and like were responding to something

52:50

that we don't even know why we're responding to

52:52

it. But it's still fun. For that. You're like,

52:54

how do. We want to say. Something

52:57

like that shit like I don't know

52:59

why yes but I just didn't like

53:01

it. So this the I'd this the

53:03

existence as being human invites harm the

53:06

same way that the exists that of

53:08

human can invite. All right like he

53:10

can have. I changed it in invites.

53:13

Piece of advice: whatever you invites. In.

53:15

Eventually, Like, right? like that's the process is

53:17

like getting to the point where you feel

53:19

like life isn't happening to you. Is.

53:21

Happening for you. And I

53:23

feel like when I look at your work in an

53:25

just hearing. How your money works,

53:28

that is. What the

53:30

undermining a patriarchy to do Because we are

53:32

being controlled by a systems and when we

53:34

actively start to undo that control mechanism it

53:37

is Aca. You know at you when you

53:39

when you talk about the tears like to

53:41

me it feels like something similar to like

53:43

if you had tendons that were like that

53:46

you know you are puppet of these tendons

53:48

once a string of like they were actual

53:50

tendency. a skin like it would fucking hurt

53:53

when they're being cut. but you're getting to

53:55

be more free you know? Is this the

53:57

process of the the pains of freedom. It

54:00

like that pathways and that's why we'll talk

54:02

about like doing the work. Doing the work

54:04

like the work is strenuous. Because.

54:08

In. This version of society. We. Are

54:10

trains. To. Be attached to

54:12

these things. To. Make something else

54:14

work and so many people are fine with.

54:16

That's to the point where it makes you

54:19

feel crazy for not being fine with that.

54:21

but. I feel like what you

54:23

decide ah like yes you harm people but you

54:25

also like how people's I think you need to.be

54:27

to self the fuck up too much about that

54:29

like you know. On to make sure that that's

54:32

not happening because I just know rights. I did

54:34

not even. Allowed me as a lighter

54:36

sign. State is very easy to has

54:38

flags dive into that pool and swim

54:41

around. you know and get really comfortable

54:43

in it. But there's something so real

54:45

about just the basic concept that you

54:47

said which is and I'm paraphrasing but

54:49

like this is all around as you

54:51

have to choose not to be a

54:53

part of it and for men that's

54:55

the choice Like I remember my homeboy

54:58

saying to me like yo. Diseases

55:00

know. That as a yes I

55:02

did not assess assess assess ssssss

55:05

plenty use it as they actually

55:07

him quite quite aware and he

55:09

was later some. Time now

55:11

com and. He had been through

55:13

like here like that I was a couple

55:15

times and he had like went to go

55:17

to dislike meditative to week like finally retreats

55:19

and that's what he came out of it

55:21

with and he actively from that point forward

55:23

started saying oh I'm a part of a

55:25

system that has never taught me how to

55:27

be a good person. Let

55:29

alone how to be a good man. So

55:32

like I have said consciously. It's

55:34

like when george the scenes I was like under

55:36

the do everything the opposites that I normally would

55:38

do. I'm not going to get a turkey on

55:40

rye i'm gonna get it sick and salads and

55:42

I'm a get it on sourdough that's the opposite

55:44

like and then things that opening up for him

55:46

but I'm one of those who are specialty transaction

55:48

because I want to throw some names out at

55:51

you and unless you since who not name's Ashley

55:53

now this I want to do. You

55:55

made a point. We say patriarchy is everywhere and

55:57

everything and I want to throw at you like.

56:00

A thing and you tell me where

56:02

patriarchy exists in it. Assist Assist. Our

56:06

eyes. Yeah we're going to go to the paid yeah

56:08

you know what it is the amount of as that

56:10

harm the ah my seal squatters. I'll see you there.

56:19

Have been really great! Thank you for

56:21

giving as this gives you know I

56:23

really despise has allowed me to be

56:25

in space. Of sharing and I

56:28

do feel like I'm in class that

56:30

I really like school. Oh

56:33

Us but I, I. I learned

56:35

I learned so much today and I

56:37

really am fortunate that you responded to

56:39

my my Dm and that we are

56:41

able to get you on because the

56:43

messaging that you have and the intensity

56:45

that you have I feel like so

56:47

many more folks possess Say it, But

56:49

they don't necessarily feel like they can

56:51

expel it, right? They don't feel like

56:53

there's like a place for it to

56:55

be directed towards and you manage to

56:57

do that in. One. Of

57:00

the most oppressive spaces that any maybe the most

57:02

oppressive say someone can be. And as I did

57:04

slavery rights I was it actually a slavery. Because

57:06

of the thirty them. And true though, there's that

57:08

sizes Want to thank you for your work. Thank

57:10

you for your service. And encourage

57:13

you to this. Also

57:16

like. Breathe. Beg

57:20

you Amanda! Thank you for giving voice to this! Thank

57:22

you for having me on this have been so much

57:24

fun and I am going to some breathing and maybe

57:26

even what's coming to America. Or

57:36

Europe. Ever since then, it's. As

57:40

as is about the pull out a V H

57:42

S or Dvds of like you to see with

57:44

own you turks like I mean states. Iowa

57:46

it's and me honestly had had to go out there is that

57:48

I could walk right to at. I have the Dvd. The

57:52

damn I have the vinyl. Of

57:55

the soundtrack. Oh yes,

57:57

can you. See. I'm

58:01

into a man with yes said

58:03

He filled with the when and

58:05

where can people follow success stories

58:07

and and learn. More about the

58:09

work. all of the success stories

58:11

handles are at prison. Feminism on

58:13

every platform. So seven. Tap

58:16

ins or right numbers have our so I

58:18

don't to keep looking at my that's. Great.

58:21

Success.