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1:26

Hey, small-town fam. It's Yardley. How

1:28

are you guys? I'm so glad

1:30

you're here. So one of our

1:32

newer guests, Detective Jamie, returns today

1:34

with a case about an attempted

1:36

kidnapping that takes law enforcement down

1:38

a rabbit hole of depravity and

1:42

premeditation, the likes of which Hollywood horror films are

1:46

made. I personally can't watch movies like

1:48

that. Oh, no. Whether

1:51

they're sci-fi or Silence of the Lambs, I'm

1:54

much too squeamish. And maybe I even cling

1:56

to it. to

2:00

the hope that Hollywood is exaggerating

2:02

about what's happening in the shadows. Although

2:04

I have to say, after 14 seasons

2:06

of Small Town Dicks, I

2:08

know better. And I know that

2:11

sometimes, monsters are real.

2:14

Such as the offender in this

2:16

episode, where the evidence

2:18

police uncover is so disturbing

2:20

and abundant that even

2:22

the detectives are taken aback. The

2:26

silver lining is that the other

2:28

stunning part of this investigation comes

2:30

from two good Samaritans who saw

2:32

something that didn't sit right with

2:34

them. And instead of shrugging it

2:36

off, called police immediately.

2:39

The ripple effect was huge. Here

2:42

is a vile plan.

2:48

Hi there, I'm Yardley. I'm Dan.

2:50

I'm Dave. And I'm Paul. And

2:52

this is Small Town Dicks. Dave

2:54

and I are identical twins and

2:56

retired detectives from Small Town USA.

2:58

And I'm a veteran cold case

3:00

investigator who helped catch the Golden

3:02

State Killer using a revolutionary DNA

3:04

tool. Between the three of us,

3:06

we've investigated thousands of crimes from

3:08

petty theft to sexual assault, child

3:10

abuse to murder. Each case

3:12

we cover is told by the detective who

3:14

investigated it, offering a rare personal account of

3:17

how they solved the crime. Names,

3:19

places, and certain details have been changed to

3:21

protect the privacy of victims and their families. And

3:23

although we're aware that some of our listeners may

3:26

be familiar with these cases, we ask you to

3:28

please join us in continuing to protect the true

3:30

identities of those involved out of respect for what

3:32

they've been through. Thank you. Today

3:42

on Small Town Dicks, I

3:44

wonder if I should even say it. What if

3:46

I don't even say the usual suspects? How

3:49

about I just go, hi, today

3:51

on Small Town Dicks, I have

3:53

Detective Dan. Hello, everyone.

3:58

High energy. High energy. I

4:00

have Paul Holes. Hi. I've

4:06

really, really upended the boat here. And

4:09

I have the one and only Detective Dave. Hey,

4:11

hey. Hey. Hey. Oh,

4:17

it's like that shell game when you

4:19

don't know what cup the little pebble

4:21

is under. They're all scrambled. And,

4:25

small town fam, we are

4:27

so pleased to welcome back

4:29

Detective Jamie. Hello. Hello. It's

4:31

great to see you again. Thank you so much for

4:33

joining us. Yeah, I'm happy to

4:35

be back. And for our listeners, you'll

4:37

remember, or if you're a first time

4:39

listener, I'm happy to inform you, that Jamie

4:42

gave us a case earlier this season

4:44

that we called duped. It's

4:46

a great one. And Jamie and

4:48

I were actually, briefly, partners at the

4:51

same agency before I retired. So, Jamie,

4:53

it's great to have you back. Thank

4:55

you. So, Jamie, tell us how

4:57

this case came to you. All

4:59

right. So, this was in June 2022. It

5:03

was a typical Monday at like

5:05

4.15 in the afternoon. So, I

5:07

am just watching the clock, waiting to

5:09

go home. It's a nice day. It's in the summertime.

5:12

There is a radio that we keep

5:14

back in our detective office. So,

5:16

we can just kind of keep an eye

5:18

on what's being dispatched and what our officers

5:20

are doing. And my

5:23

ears perked up because I heard

5:25

dispatch broadcast a call about these

5:27

callers chasing someone who tried to

5:29

kidnap a child. So, that's what

5:32

I heard. That was the only information

5:34

that came out. I remember a second

5:36

call to 911 was made about two

5:38

vehicles chasing each other and running stop

5:40

signs. And I remember

5:42

we kind of made this joke about

5:45

what are the odds of this actually

5:47

being real versus like a

5:49

road rage type situation and someone is just

5:51

prank calling us basically. We don't get these

5:53

calls in our small city very often. Someone

5:55

trying to take a child and vehicles chasing

5:57

each other. That's just not something you hear

5:59

every day. Okay. The original callers

6:02

to 911 was a married couple

6:04

in their fifties named John and

6:06

Susan. They called 911 and

6:09

continued to provide dispatch with updates

6:11

on their location and the suspect

6:13

vehicle that they were chasing. And

6:16

they were headed east, like out of

6:18

our town towards more of a back

6:20

roads country area. We're

6:22

still listening to the radio like, is this

6:24

real? And then finally, Susan is on

6:27

911 saying, we watched this guy

6:29

try to grab a small child. And

6:32

then he jumped back in his vehicle and

6:34

we're chasing him. Susan is providing

6:36

updates about chasing this suspect

6:38

vehicle all over our

6:41

town. I later learned

6:43

that John and Susan had their two small

6:45

dogs in the backseat that they were just

6:47

getting thrown around in the backseat as they're

6:50

trying to keep up with this

6:52

guy because they know that they just witnessed an

6:54

attempted abduction and he cannot get away. They

6:57

had bad tires, their tires were very

6:59

bald. They're spinning out on gravel as

7:01

the suspect vehicle is like crossing the

7:03

center lane trying to get away. So

7:05

of course, as all of this

7:07

is happening, dispatch is broadcasting to

7:09

every single agency in the state

7:11

probably about what just happened. And

7:13

so every officer in the area

7:15

from our state police to our

7:17

deputy sheriffs are responding. As

7:20

this is happening and more information is coming

7:22

out from the 911 callers,

7:25

Lieutenant George and I look at each other and we're like, this is 100%

7:28

happening. Like there's no doubt now that this

7:30

is real. And no one had

7:32

located this little girl yet. Nobody knows where she

7:34

actually is because all of the officers

7:37

are busy trying to like catch up

7:39

to this mini citizen pursuit. And

7:42

Jamie, just to be clear, this is an

7:44

attempted abduction, correct? Yes. Susan was

7:46

able to confirm that he didn't actually grab

7:48

that little girl. So she is not in

7:51

the vehicle with this suspect. And

7:53

do you think that the abduction

7:55

is thwarted because John and Susan are

7:57

rolled up on the guy trying to...

8:00

matched the girl and he realized he

8:02

had witnesses. A thousand

8:04

percent, yes, yes, absolutely. So

8:07

I cannot emphasize enough how much of

8:09

a team effort this was between every

8:11

single agency coming into town and

8:14

trying to find this suspect vehicle. There

8:16

was an off-duty neighboring agency

8:18

lieutenant who lived in our

8:21

city. And when he heard

8:23

all of my agency's officers, he knew

8:25

that he was the closest one to

8:27

where this was last seen. So he's

8:29

taking off lights and sirens trying to

8:32

find it. We've got troopers coming

8:34

in. It's just flooding with law enforcement.

8:37

After what felt like hours, it was like

8:39

10 minutes of searching all of these back

8:41

roads. The suspect vehicle was finally spotted and

8:44

a short pursuit ensues. Police

8:46

officers are lights and sirens

8:48

behind him. There's absolutely

8:50

nowhere for this person to go.

8:53

It's flooded with law enforcement. The

8:55

suspect slammed on his brakes so hard and

8:57

just comes to an immediate stop in the

9:00

middle of the road. And the

9:02

officers behind, they had to slam on their brakes.

9:04

They had to try to avoid hitting each other,

9:06

hitting the suspect vehicle. It just was so abrupt

9:09

that it just ended. So

9:11

officers, troopers, deputies,

9:14

everyone's there trying to coordinate, getting

9:16

into position for this high-risk felony

9:18

traffic stop. And

9:21

commands are being yelled at to the suspect,

9:23

but they're not getting a response from inside

9:25

the vehicle. There's no movement from inside the

9:27

vehicle. So after several

9:29

minutes of trying to figure out tactically

9:32

how to approach this car, you know,

9:34

they're putting spike strips up ahead just

9:36

in case the suspect decides to flee

9:38

again in his car. They're angling other

9:40

cars. So eventually they

9:42

approach the vehicle and they find

9:45

the driver deceased. He has a

9:47

self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.

9:50

It probably happened immediately when he anchored

9:52

the car and came to a stop.

9:55

My assumption is, like, during the chaos of, like,

9:57

the other officers slamming on their brakes, trying to

9:59

avoid it. each other, the adrenaline, the chaos,

10:01

like everyone on the radio, they probably didn't

10:03

hear the gunshot. You got sirens going

10:05

on. I mean, there's just so much and

10:08

it's inside of a vehicle. So you're probably

10:10

not going to hear the gunshot. And

10:13

what's our suspect's name? Our suspect's

10:15

name is Joseph. How old

10:17

is Joseph-ish? He was late 20s.

10:19

I think he was 29. So

10:21

everything is happening so fast that I got

10:24

in my car and I decided I'm going

10:26

to go to where this originally happened, see

10:28

if we can find this little girl. So

10:30

that's my job. You know, I'm the child

10:32

abuse detective. I've done forensic interviewing

10:34

training, like I need to go find this girl.

10:37

But as I'm driving out there is when

10:40

all of this is taking place and they're airing

10:42

over the radio that, oh, they found the suspect

10:44

and he's deceased. And now, I

10:46

mean, there wasn't really doubt in my mind that this

10:48

was true before, but I'm like, this guy just got

10:50

in a pursuit, anchored it and

10:52

shot himself. Normal people don't

10:55

do that. He was doing

10:57

something very, very bad. So

10:59

we were able to find this little girl's

11:02

house. Her name is Nicole. She

11:05

was downstairs in her bedroom watching TV

11:07

just another Monday, like nothing had happened.

11:10

Her mom was okay with me going down there and

11:12

chatting with her and just getting some initial details. I

11:14

didn't want to traumatize her further, but you know, it'd

11:16

be nice to have just like a little bit of

11:18

backstory of what we can get at that moment. So

11:22

Nicole told me that she was walking

11:24

from her house down the street to

11:26

her friend's house and her friend was not

11:28

home. So Nicole started walking

11:30

back home when she noticed this car

11:34

pull up in front of her and a really

11:36

big guy jumped out of the car in

11:38

front of her. Nicole then saw

11:41

another car drive by simultaneously as

11:43

this happened. Nicole

11:45

said the guy never touched her and

11:47

he just immediately hopped back in his

11:49

car and she ran away.

11:51

Nicole is eight years old and Nicole's told

11:54

me that her parents had taught her about

11:56

stranger so she just took off running to

11:58

her house. How far

12:00

away does Nicole's friend live from

12:02

Nicole's house? It was right around

12:04

the corner. It was probably like six or seven houses

12:06

down and Nicole was two houses

12:09

away from her own house. She was walking

12:11

home. She was two houses away when this

12:13

all happened. That's all it takes. Yeah.

12:17

So Nicole seemed to be in really good spirits.

12:20

I think she was scared, but she's

12:22

eight. She obviously had no idea like the

12:24

gravity of the situation and what almost just

12:26

happened to her. She thinks just

12:28

some guy kind of popped out and scared her and

12:30

she ran home and everything's fine. Nicole's

12:33

mom was home when this happened. Nicole's

12:36

dad showed up later. I think

12:38

for them too, like the shock of what

12:40

we were telling them, they

12:42

didn't understand the gravity of the situation. Obviously

12:44

they were so grateful that nothing happened. And

12:47

so thankful that these people, John

12:49

and Susan had intervened and saw what

12:51

happened. But I think they were still

12:54

like, Oh, well, our daughter's here. Nothing

12:57

bad happened. Jamie, did you

12:59

actually tell Nicole's parents how the pursuit

13:01

ended with Joseph taking his own life?

13:04

Yeah. And I think that kind of put

13:06

it all into perspective of this guy was

13:08

up to no good. And my daughter was

13:10

the one who he had targeted. If

13:13

the suspect is dead by the

13:15

time you contact Nicole,

13:18

is there a need for an

13:20

investigation? Absolutely. All

13:23

the detectives are smirking at me. Well,

13:25

it's probably a dumb question. The

13:27

immediate concern is public safety. Like

13:29

Jamie said, normal people don't do

13:31

this. And the fact that Joseph

13:34

committed suicide, he didn't even go

13:36

hands on with Nicole. You

13:38

have this attempted abduction, but why

13:40

is he taking his life now

13:42

that law enforcement is pursuing him?

13:45

What else has he done? Right. And where

13:48

does he live? And is anyone locked up

13:50

in a closet in his house? You have

13:52

to dig in and find out where this

13:55

guy's been, what he's up to, what

13:57

his motives were. And those.

14:00

investigations where you know it's never gonna

14:02

end in an arrest because you have

14:04

a deceased subject, you end

14:06

up doing the most work on. Why is

14:08

that? You have to check every box.

14:10

We're thinking about public safety. So I want to

14:12

know everywhere that Joseph has

14:15

been in recent days and weeks, where

14:17

does he lay his head to go

14:19

to sleep at night? I want to know

14:21

what's in that house and what he's into.

14:23

Certainly going to get on his computer and

14:26

figure out what he's been up to online

14:28

and what he looks at, what he searches

14:30

for. There's so much more that

14:32

goes into this. You just don't

14:34

have a suspect to interview at the end,

14:36

but the investigation is the same. I

14:39

mean, all the things that we do as

14:41

detectives, if you don't do all those things

14:43

and worst case scenario, there's a little girl

14:45

locked up in a basement somewhere and

14:48

you just stopped your investigation because

14:50

suspect killed himself. I

14:53

mean, it just can't happen. Yeah. The

14:55

circumstances really lend themselves to more suspicion

14:57

on my part. I go, like, why

14:59

is this guy anchoring his car and

15:01

blowing his head off? There's

15:04

something bigger out there. So

15:21

what we learned from John and

15:24

Susan is that they lived in the

15:26

neighborhood and they are on

15:28

their way to the store when they

15:30

see what they thought was a suspicious

15:32

vehicle parked near an area where children

15:34

were getting dropped off by a school

15:36

bus. So they thought that was kind

15:38

of weird. But then they watched as

15:40

the suspect vehicle made a U-turn

15:42

and started following what ended up being Nicole,

15:45

who was walking alone. And, you know, it's

15:47

a typical neighborhood street, but she was alone.

15:49

There was nobody else walking down that street

15:51

with her or in sight. So John

15:54

and Susan felt really uneasy about

15:56

it. So they decided, let's turn

15:58

around. Let's go follow the that

16:00

vehicle. So luckily enough,

16:02

the house directly across the

16:04

street from where this happened had

16:06

like the most amazing cameras. So

16:08

this entire attempted abduction was caught

16:10

on camera. When John

16:12

and Susan come around the

16:15

corner to turn to where Nicole had walked off

16:17

to, I see Joseph jump out

16:19

of the car and stand in front

16:21

of Nicole. That's when Joseph

16:23

looks up and sees this car coming

16:25

around the corner. He jumps

16:28

back in his vehicle. John and

16:30

Susan drive by to where Nicole

16:32

had ran and they're yelling out the

16:34

window to Nicole, Hey, did you

16:36

know that guy? Is that your dad? And Nicole said,

16:39

no, I didn't know him. So John

16:41

and Susan were like, Oh shit, you

16:43

turn chase after this guy

16:45

because they just witnessed an attempted abduction

16:47

and this guy cannot get away. And

16:50

you're actually able to watch all of

16:52

this happen on the security footage from

16:54

the house across the street. Yes.

16:57

That's incredible. On

17:00

camera. You see this white Camry

17:02

speeding back through the view of

17:04

the video camera. It's John and

17:06

Susan taking off back after

17:08

this suspect. I love John and

17:10

Susan. You got to listen to

17:12

your instincts. I love that they did that.

17:14

There's so many examples and I'm guilty of

17:17

it myself where you're like, eh, it's

17:20

probably nothing. It's so easy to do

17:22

that. But these folks just

17:24

taking an extra two minutes of their trip

17:27

saved this girl's life. A hundred percent saved

17:29

her life. Absolutely. And whether

17:31

you believe in like coincidence, religion,

17:33

spiritual, whatever it is, what

17:36

happened that day was so amazing

17:39

because Susan did not want to go to

17:41

the store. John made Susan

17:43

go with him. And when

17:45

they left, Susan thought this was weird and

17:47

John was like, eh, it's

17:49

fine. Susan made John turn around. You know,

17:52

so all of this comes together that they

17:54

were in the right spot at the right

17:56

time to save this little girl's

17:58

life. What does

18:00

your investigation reveal about

18:02

Joseph and his lifestyle, etc.? So

18:07

Joseph's vehicle was transported back to

18:09

the police station for us to

18:11

go through it. I went through

18:13

his car personally and

18:15

everything you can imagine that a

18:17

kidnapper would need. He was

18:19

so prepared. There were

18:22

condoms, there were these pre-made

18:24

handcuff zip ties attached to

18:26

the passenger floorboard, like where

18:28

you would move your seat

18:30

back and forth. So I imagine if Joseph would

18:32

have gotten Nicole in the car, he would have

18:34

zip tied her hands, and then there was a

18:36

blanket in the passenger floorboard. He just would have

18:38

thrown this blanket over her to conceal her from

18:40

view. There was duct tape

18:42

on the handles inside the

18:44

vehicle, so you couldn't access the door

18:47

handles. There were knives

18:49

in the trunk. There were garbage

18:51

bags, hand sanitizing wipes, a

18:53

gas can. And then this horrifying

18:56

goat skeleton mask. And

18:59

it had huge horns, like what you would get

19:01

from a Halloween store and you would wear to

19:04

scare people. It was super creepy. It

19:06

sounds like pagan symbology. It's

19:09

a satanic symbol. You know, when

19:11

we did our live episode at CrimeCon last

19:13

summer, I talked about Mitch Bacon. Bacon had

19:15

a tattoo of the same thing. I

19:17

totally picture it. And I think that's

19:19

also the Mitch Bacon thing was in

19:21

my mind, because I know that Paul

19:23

has talked about the imagery that gets

19:25

associated with some of these offenders and

19:27

what they're into. And when Jamie

19:30

said the goat mask, I was like, I

19:32

think I can picture this. It's

19:34

super creepy. But it's informative.

19:36

You know, when I think about this, why is he

19:39

putting the mask on? Joseph is

19:41

now wanting to become this

19:43

creature as he's committing

19:45

this evil act on this little girl.

19:48

You know, so this is how

19:50

in many ways how Joseph is

19:52

identifying internally and that this creature

19:54

is something that he's seeing about

19:56

himself. And he was about

19:58

to commit, you know, all sorts. of

20:00

horrifying sexual acts, possibly

20:02

torture, and Joseph is

20:05

purposely wanting to inflict fear into this

20:07

victim. There is a sadistic aspect, but

20:09

this is also part of his fantasy.

20:11

Yes, absolutely. So pulling all this stuff

20:13

out of the car, it's very surreal

20:15

for me. I've never had a case

20:17

like this before, you know, this or

20:19

the stuff that you hear about, you

20:22

hear on podcasts, you know? But I

20:24

was like pulling all this stuff out of the car. I was like, holy

20:26

shit, like this was bad. This

20:28

could have been so, so, so bad. So

20:31

the next day we find out where Joseph

20:33

is from, about three hours south of us

20:35

is where Joseph lives with his mother, Tina.

20:38

Another detective and I, we

20:40

drive down to Joseph's location.

20:43

Fun fact on my three hour

20:45

drive, any guesses on what I listened to? Probably

20:48

Spice Girls or something. Taylor

20:50

Swift? No, no, people. You're

20:53

so humble. No, I listened to Monster, part one

20:55

and part two. That episode is

20:57

from season two. You went way back. I

21:00

did, I was like, let's listen to this

21:02

episode because it's like very similar.

21:04

This is exactly what was gonna happen

21:06

to my case. And it

21:08

was kind of just a little, it was

21:11

pep. I needed some like motivation. We appreciate

21:13

that. We sure do. So

21:15

Jamie, now you're in the town that Joseph

21:18

is from, where do you start

21:20

once you get there? So now

21:22

we're gonna go talk to family, friends,

21:25

employers, relationships, anybody who can

21:27

give us some background on

21:29

Joseph. From what we

21:31

learn from Tina is that Joseph

21:34

was a loner. He was very

21:36

socially awkward, very standoffish, kept to

21:38

himself. He didn't have any

21:40

friends. He spent a considerable

21:42

amount of time in his room

21:44

playing video games, searching

21:47

the internet for serial killers and

21:49

their victims. Like his Google search

21:51

history was just full of Wikipedia

21:53

from serial killers and then looking

21:55

up all of their victims later

21:58

from digital forensics. exploring the

22:00

dark web for child pornography.

22:03

Tina told me that Joseph battled with

22:06

depression, but he was able to maintain

22:08

a part-time job for a local parks

22:10

and recreation department. Again, they

22:13

put themselves around children, try

22:15

to be around children all the time. Tina

22:18

did not think Joseph was one to ever own

22:20

a gun. She didn't think he liked guns or

22:22

even knew how to use guns. And

22:24

she's never known him to have any sort

22:26

of romantic relationships ever. Did

22:28

anybody say, oh, yeah, he was always

22:30

a weirdo? You know how people sometimes

22:32

say either we never suspected he was

22:34

just plain Joe, or they go, yeah,

22:37

if it was ever going to be anyone in this neighborhood, it's going

22:39

to be that guy. The descriptions like

22:41

loner, outcast, awkward, depressed, plays in

22:44

his room on video games, zero

22:46

friends. To me, those are all

22:48

red flags. Like if you told me

22:50

he did it, I believe you. But I think

22:53

in his family, in his circle, I don't think

22:55

they were thinking much that direction. They just thought

22:57

he was a loner and just socially awkward. And

23:00

Joseph had no criminal history either. How

23:03

is Tina holding up knowing that her son

23:05

had executed himself a day

23:07

prior? She was definitely in shock.

23:10

And I was trying to take it very,

23:12

very gently with her because I also wanted

23:15

to search Joseph's bedroom. And

23:17

so I didn't want to scare her

23:19

or freak her out. It was a

23:21

very sensitive subject because she seemed like

23:23

a very nice lady. And

23:26

her son just died. And I spared her

23:28

a lot of details about what was in

23:30

his car and what he did. Why did

23:32

you do that? I felt

23:35

like for her, she needed to hold on

23:37

to the good memories she had. Her husband

23:39

had died. So Joseph's dad died a few

23:41

years prior after a long battle

23:44

of some medical issues. And so I think

23:46

that's where Joseph started declining. That's what Tina

23:48

said in her mind. I don't

23:50

know. She just seemed really nice. And I just felt

23:52

bad for her, honestly. This was a horrible situation. And

23:55

she was so, so thankful

23:57

that he didn't take Nicole. She acted.

23:59

about Nicole and was like, is that

24:01

little girl okay? And she

24:03

showed a lot of sympathy. So I

24:06

know she wasn't okay with anything that

24:08

Joseph did, but she was very torn

24:10

because her son just died and

24:12

killed himself. And she has no idea what just

24:14

happened. When you asked for

24:17

consent to search Joseph's room, what was

24:19

her immediate reaction? She was fine

24:21

with it. And what did you find? Not

24:24

a lot was in his bedroom. He had

24:26

a computer and desktop in there, but

24:28

we learned that he had pulled the

24:30

SATA hard drives from his computer and

24:32

those were no longer in the computer.

24:35

So he took the memory chip

24:38

basically. Yeah, like the hard drive

24:40

that would contain all of the naughty

24:42

things he was doing on there. Did

24:45

Joseph's mom, Tina, have free access to his

24:47

room? She never went in there. But

24:49

she physically could, right? Yeah, yeah,

24:51

she could have, but she just left him alone.

24:54

What did Joseph's room look like? It

24:56

was fairly clean. It looked like someone spent a

24:58

lot of time in there, but it definitely looked

25:01

like he had cleaned up. And

25:03

when was the last time Tina had seen Joseph? So

25:05

it had been about four days since she last

25:08

saw him. Joseph told Tina that

25:10

he was gonna go rent a cabin at

25:12

the coast, complete opposite direction of where

25:14

my agency is. But her

25:16

understanding was he was gonna go rent a cabin

25:18

for a couple of days and just get away

25:20

and relax. And he was into photography. And

25:23

so that's what she thought he was doing this whole time.

25:26

So that day I'm down in

25:28

this city. During that day, Detective

25:30

Robert, our forensic analyst, was going

25:32

through Joseph's cell phone.

25:35

And so he was able

25:37

to identify a very remote

25:39

cabin that Joseph had

25:42

rented for the past week in

25:45

a very remote area about 45 minutes south

25:47

of my agency and

25:49

where this crime occurred. I

25:51

remember the description of this cabin

25:54

was like, no wifi service, perfect

25:56

for solitude, remote area, no neighbors.

25:59

And so, you know, you're starting to like pick up on, oh my

26:02

God. That's the thing is if you drive

26:04

45 minutes south of our

26:06

city, you are in the middle of

26:08

forest. Truly. This

26:11

is seclusion deep in the woods, right?

26:14

No cell service. I lost cell service when we

26:16

were on the way there. Like it was the

26:18

boondocks, really. So obviously there's

26:20

a huge concern. What we've talked about

26:23

previously that what if there is a

26:25

another girl there? What if there's another

26:27

victim in a cage locked up in

26:29

the basement? What if there's a

26:31

second bad guy? Like what if Joseph had a partner?

26:34

Who knows what's going on? So we obviously

26:36

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31:00

So we located this cabin on a

31:02

very large piece of property, but after

31:04

searching the whole property, we didn't find

31:06

any additional victims. There were no other

31:08

people there. There was no second bad

31:10

guy. It was just an empty cabin.

31:12

Was there any evidence that Joseph had

31:14

even been inside this cabin? Yes. So

31:17

Joseph had been in that cabin for about four

31:19

days prior to trying to

31:21

kidnap Nicole. He had just been

31:23

hanging out there. There were receipts

31:25

of food. He had food everywhere.

31:27

But what was in this cabin

31:30

was the stuff of nightmares. Just

31:33

picturing what was in his car and

31:35

then thinking about this cabin is like

31:37

times 20. It was a one-bedroom cabin

31:40

with like a loft area too. So there

31:42

were two beds, one's up in the loft

31:44

where he was clearly sleeping, and then there

31:46

was a second bed down on the first

31:49

floor. The mattress had been moved

31:51

into the bathroom, which was really weird. I don't know

31:53

why this mattress was in the bathroom because it was

31:55

just standing up on its side. It's not like you

31:57

could lay the mattress down and have someone lay on

31:59

it. I don't know what it was doing in there.

32:01

So we pulled it out and

32:03

I'll spare you the details of everything

32:06

that was found inside the bathroom. But

32:08

it was clear that that's where Joseph

32:10

was going to spend the majority of

32:12

his time with his victim. There are

32:14

more condoms, sex toys of like all

32:16

sizes, weird BDSM

32:19

type objects like a ball

32:21

gag. There was like

32:23

this homemade strangle device, more

32:25

duct tape. There were more

32:27

of those pre-made handcuffs, zip ties.

32:30

And then behind the toilet there was a camera

32:33

which was attached to the tripod

32:36

in the bathroom. The window sill

32:38

had like rope pliers, an

32:40

electric shaver, trauma

32:42

shears. And then in the

32:45

bathtub itself was a sleeping bag, a tarp,

32:47

and a pillow. So

32:49

we're just going through this, obviously picturing

32:51

like what was in store for the little

32:54

girl that got brought here, whoever she was

32:56

going to be. It was

32:58

terrifying, but it also felt kind of fake

33:00

at the same time. Like in my mind,

33:02

I'm like, I've just never seen anything like

33:04

this. This is just something that I feel

33:06

like I would, I would

33:09

see on TV. Like this is just so nuts to

33:11

me. Quick question. Joseph

33:13

has been at this cabin for

33:15

four days. Were you able to

33:17

find out how long he had this cabin

33:19

rented for? I think it was like a week.

33:22

So plan on a few days

33:24

of torture, terrible things were going

33:26

to happen to this little girl. And

33:28

then I think we can

33:30

all assume what's going to happen after that.

33:33

That tarp probably has something to do with

33:35

it. You just see from the items that

33:37

Joseph had in his car. First, he set

33:39

the car up to be able to control

33:41

this victim, to hide to the victim being

33:44

shackled down low and being covered. But

33:46

then to have the knives,

33:49

garbage bags, disposal, possibly the

33:51

ability to start a fire with the gasoline,

33:53

you know, this is to either light the

33:56

car on fire or to help get rid

33:58

of the body. extrapolate

34:00

that to the cabin and all

34:02

the items that are there. Joseph

34:05

has rented this cabin for a week. There's

34:08

more there than

34:11

what is needed for just one little

34:13

girl as a victim. To

34:15

me, it sounds like he may have

34:17

been going to go on a series

34:20

and for whatever reason he didn't get

34:22

a victim for the first four days. Chayby,

34:25

are you able to place any

34:28

movement after he's at

34:30

the cabin? Is he driving around

34:32

to different towns? Because

34:34

it almost sounds like he could be

34:36

out there trolling for victims and just

34:39

never got the right opportunity until he

34:41

ran across Nicole. Absolutely. So

34:43

we were able to build a timeline of

34:45

what Joseph has been doing. And

34:47

so it was about three months prior

34:50

to this whole incident taking place that

34:52

he starts searching for

34:54

Airbnb's in various cities. And

34:56

it's about one month prior

34:58

to when the crime occurred

35:01

that he finally locked down on a city and

35:03

he locked down on this cabin, this remote cabin.

35:06

So Joseph booked and paid for

35:08

this cabin for seven days. He

35:11

started Google searching gun laws in

35:13

my state and the fingerprinting process

35:15

because the very next day after

35:17

those Google searches, he went and

35:19

bought a handgun. About

35:22

a week after he bought the handgun

35:24

is when he checks into this Airbnb

35:26

cabin. And then we start

35:28

seeing payment history for movies. He

35:30

went to the movie theater and he was

35:32

buying pizza. So he was just hanging out

35:35

in this area. He's got notes

35:37

in his phone. One note

35:40

was documenting apparent times and

35:42

locations. So I think

35:45

they were bus schedule drop offs because

35:47

they would say things like 1533,

35:50

this intersection. You think those were

35:52

city buses that he was keeping

35:54

schedules on? They were school buses.

35:57

Creepy. He's just in preparation.

35:59

I think he's building up to what he's

36:01

about to do with Nicole. He's

36:04

on the hunt, he's looking around, but he's also

36:06

planning it. Also found

36:08

on Joseph's camera roll were like

36:10

he was taking photos of unsuspecting

36:12

children for like months, just kids

36:14

walking down the street and Joseph

36:16

would just take a photo of

36:19

them. There was also

36:21

another note in his phone titled

36:23

schedule that seemed to detail what

36:25

Joseph planned on doing once he

36:27

successfully abducted a victim. And

36:29

then the most disturbing part, I

36:32

mean, obviously there were some like sexual things that

36:34

he was gonna do that were horrendous to even

36:36

read. But the most disturbing

36:38

was he included mind games.

36:40

Like he was going to fake a

36:42

car ride and then he was

36:45

going to pretend to leave. Like he's

36:47

mentally trying to play with this little

36:49

girl and scare her. I

36:52

think there were at least two days full of schedule.

36:54

So he was planning for at least two days with

36:57

this girl. So what

36:59

Joseph had done from when he woke

37:01

up to when he attempted to abduct

37:03

Nicole, Joseph was watching several rape

37:06

videos like on his cell phone,

37:08

probably coming from the dark web. And

37:12

then based on his timeline and

37:14

then cameras in the neighborhood, about

37:16

half an hour before the attempted

37:18

abduction, Joseph's vehicle can be seen

37:20

driving around this area. Joseph

37:23

can be seen directly behind a school

37:25

bus in this general vicinity. About

37:27

a half hour later is when

37:29

Joseph attempted to abduct Nicole. The

37:32

fact that Joseph is doing this

37:34

in broad daylight is really bold

37:36

and it gives you some insight

37:38

into where this guy's mind was, how bad this

37:40

would have been. What scares me the

37:43

most thinking about it is that Nicole was on

37:45

her way to a friend's house. Her mom thought

37:47

she was gonna go play with her friend for

37:49

probably a couple hours. And

37:51

so when Nicole gets there, her friend's not

37:53

there and she starts walking home, if Joseph

37:55

had been successful, police would have been behind

37:58

the ball by several, several hours. because

38:00

I bet by the time mom thinks to figure

38:02

out where her daughter is, it's

38:04

been a couple hours, then they're gonna go probably

38:07

do this little search party within the family, then

38:09

they're gonna call police, and now police have to

38:11

figure out, you know, hopefully we

38:14

would go check that person's camera about

38:16

what happened. But then, okay,

38:18

even if we get this camera footage

38:20

of this successful abduction, you don't have a

38:22

vehicle plate, you have a description, but

38:25

Joseph is not from the area. So where

38:27

would we have even started? You know what

38:29

I mean? We would have been hours behind,

38:32

no suspect information, and who knows how far

38:34

away he could have gone. He probably could

38:36

have gone out of the state by then.

38:38

You got a bolo and an amber alert

38:41

with a vehicle description and a little girl's

38:43

description and maybe a clothing description on Joseph.

38:45

Right. A two to three hour head start

38:47

in a vehicle? Jamie's right. Going north or

38:50

south, Joseph could be at a state line

38:52

within three and a half hours. Any amount

38:54

of time that Joseph had a jump on

38:57

law enforcement would have been devastating, especially because

38:59

I think he was gonna take Nicole to

39:01

that cabin he had set up like a

39:03

torture chamber. And the reality

39:06

is with stranger child abductions, you've

39:08

got an hour after

39:10

that child is abducted because typically the

39:12

kids are killed within that hour. So

39:14

by the time law enforcement is even

39:17

notified, Nicole would have been dead. And

39:19

now you're looking for a body. Oh,

39:22

yeah. Very, very scary. So

39:25

after this happened, we sent out a

39:27

release to all law enforcement agencies in

39:30

the state or at least the states

39:33

in our area talking about, hey, this

39:35

attempted abduction just happened. Here's the vehicle

39:37

license plate. Here's the suspect. All of

39:39

his name, his description age, all of

39:41

that. Do you have any similar cases?

39:44

Do you have anything that we should

39:46

know about or that we can help

39:48

you solve? Basically, are there any other

39:50

cases out there? So that's when I

39:52

get contacted by our state's FBI office.

39:54

One of their higher ups is like,

39:56

hey, I'm in charge of these missing

39:58

children abduction type cases. and we

40:00

want to talk to you about your case. A-CAS

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a-cas.com. It

41:17

must be a big deal when the FBI reaches out

41:20

and says, hey, we want to talk to you about

41:22

your case. Yeah, I

41:24

was like, I'm so excited. Yes, like

41:26

let's talk to the FBI. We did

41:29

this huge conference call with members of

41:31

our local FBI office and in the

41:33

behavior analysis unit, which I was

41:35

just starstruck. And they read

41:37

all my reports. I

41:40

felt like I was initiated into the FBI for

41:42

a minute. They

41:44

started talking to me all about the

41:46

pathways to targeted violence of violent

41:48

offenders, you know, school shooters or mass shooters

41:50

and how they kind of like child sex

41:53

predators. Like they're not creative. They all just

41:55

kind of fit in a box. They're all

41:57

relatively the same. And so

41:59

they're. talking to me about all these phases of

42:02

these pathways to violence and

42:04

how Joseph was checking every

42:07

single box, such as

42:09

this ideation where he's getting this fantasy

42:11

and he's starting to want to do

42:13

this, the research and planning.

42:15

And he started buying all of these objects

42:18

on Amazon like a year prior. So a

42:20

lot of things we found in the cabin,

42:22

we were able to link back to his

42:24

Amazon account. So in the preparation

42:27

phase, they talk about how that's usually when

42:29

these offenders get this burst of energy. They're

42:32

super excited and they're happy. And

42:34

I was like, that's exactly how

42:36

Tina, Joseph's mother described him was

42:38

that he typically has this glassy look and he's

42:40

depressed and he hangs out in his room. But

42:42

like a week before he left, she's like, we

42:44

were cooking together. He came out of his room.

42:47

His eyes seemed brighter. He

42:49

was in a good mood because he knew what

42:51

he was about to go do. And

42:54

I'm just fascinated taking all of this information

42:56

in. And then they talk

42:58

about the breach, which is recon and

43:00

Joseph planning. And that's him going out

43:03

and scoping out all of these different

43:05

locations and the

43:07

timetables of these bus schedules. So

43:10

and then there are like 90% of these

43:12

offenders have suicidal ideation. So it was no

43:14

shock to them at all that

43:16

as soon as Joseph got caught and anchored

43:18

the vehicle, he killed himself. So it was

43:21

just very fascinating listening to them and talk

43:24

about getting this person's fingerprints and

43:26

blood into the system to see if there's any

43:28

other cases out there that we

43:30

could possibly solve. Joseph lived in

43:32

a couple of different states. He had gone

43:34

on like some road trips previously. You know,

43:36

the FBI said that they're going to help

43:38

me like look into these things and put

43:40

him in their national database. So

43:43

blood and fingerprints were collected at

43:46

Joseph's autopsy and submitted to CODIS.

43:49

I know of at least one agency that

43:51

reached out to me in our state that

43:53

said, hey, this big bushy haired guy broke

43:55

into a house and sexually abused

43:58

a child that was sleeping in her bed. do

44:00

you have the blood and fingerprints because we want to

44:02

test it against our case because we have evidence in

44:05

that case. And so I only have like one agency

44:07

where I know that they've reached out. But

44:09

we have submitted all of that stuff into

44:11

our state lab. And as far

44:14

as I know, based on all of like

44:16

the digital analysis, everything that the FBI did

44:18

for us, at least as

44:20

of now, we haven't found additional victims.

44:23

I'm hoping that because based off all

44:25

of his preparation and his manuscript, I

44:27

think this was Joseph's first time. I

44:30

think at least I'm hoping it was his first attempt

44:32

and he just failed. It's just

44:35

all much too close for comfort.

44:40

Jamie, what became of John and

44:42

Susan? So John and Susan

44:44

were honestly the true heroes of this

44:46

case. I feel like it's every police

44:48

officer's dream to save someone's life. That's

44:50

why we get into this line of

44:52

work. We want to help people. We

44:54

want to save people. Like

44:56

Dave has talked about before, we

44:58

are more reactive than proactive. And

45:00

for this to happen in front

45:02

of these random citizens just

45:05

happened to be on their way to the store. And

45:07

they decide to intervene and chase down

45:10

this person truly saved this

45:12

girl's life. I mean, we all know

45:14

what was in store for her, even

45:16

if she doesn't. But our department recognized

45:19

John and Susan for their actions and

45:21

how they averted a huge tragedy and

45:23

basically changed this girl's life forever. So

45:26

John and Susan were presented with a letter

45:28

of commendation from our small town, who will

45:31

just forever be grateful to them. John

45:33

and Susan were also nominated

45:36

and selected to receive our

45:38

state's Distinguished Citizen Award at

45:40

the annual Peace Officers Association

45:42

Awards Banquet. So this is

45:44

statewide now. This happened

45:46

just a couple of weeks ago. I went

45:48

to the award banquet to represent my department

45:50

and support John and Susan. It

45:53

was incredible. So so many police

45:55

officers in our state got awards

45:57

for being involved in mass shootings

45:59

or they're investigation or whatever. And

46:02

you know, everyone cheers and claps and they give a

46:04

summary of what they did. So when

46:06

this Distinguished Citizen Award is ready to

46:09

be presented, they give a summary of

46:11

this entire case. John and

46:13

Susan went up to collect their award and

46:15

there was a standing ovation. I

46:18

got goosebumps. I started tearing up because

46:20

it was so amazing,

46:22

so well-deserved. Everyone in this

46:24

huge room recognized and understood

46:27

what they did and

46:29

how this saved Nicole's life.

46:32

It was incredible to watch. That's amazing. I

46:34

love that. Yeah. I got the

46:36

goosebumps when you said it. Chicken skin. Good

46:38

God, I hate when you say that. I

46:42

got a little percolempt myself, so. It

46:45

was fantastic. You know, they're talking about

46:48

officers like in these shootings or these

46:50

pursuits, you know, they're giving all

46:52

of these awards and

46:54

everyone's like, yeah, that's cool. And then John

46:57

and Susan get their award and everyone

46:59

just stands up. Just the loudest clapping,

47:01

the loudest applause. Really happy to be

47:03

there. Yeah, that's fantastic. I believe it

47:05

goes back to what Dave was saying

47:07

and what you were saying to Jamie

47:09

about a number of things had to

47:11

come together in order for John and

47:13

Susan to be at the right place

47:15

at the right time. Susan

47:17

didn't want to go to the store. John makes

47:20

her go. John doesn't want to follow the car.

47:22

Susan says we must. And to

47:24

Dave's point about how I think a

47:26

lot of us these days feel like

47:28

should I get involved? What if I'm

47:30

wrong and the person I'm getting involved

47:32

with is furious at me? Do I

47:35

want to handle that? That sort of

47:37

thing. So the fact that they had

47:39

this instinct and just followed it is

47:41

pretty remarkable, I think. And fuck, yeah,

47:43

go guys. That was amazing. I

47:46

think as a police officer, probably why

47:48

John and Susan got such a great

47:50

reception at this awards banquet is because

47:53

us as police officers, we're

47:55

just not used to seeing regular

47:57

citizens intervene. When you have somebody

47:59

who genuinely. and it saves a

48:02

little girl's life in this situation,

48:04

Nicole, that is remarkable to

48:06

us because we're not used to it. Sure,

48:09

I think you're absolutely right. And they could have

48:11

easily just called 911 and stayed with

48:13

the little girl, and they would have

48:15

done the right thing, but... It would have sat on

48:17

the call screen as a suspicious conditions call until

48:20

the next officer was available to go

48:22

do an area check. Or

48:25

until Joseph actually abducts another

48:27

victim successfully, and then it's

48:29

far worse. I'm

48:31

curious, Jamie, how as a

48:34

woman investigating sex crimes and

48:36

child abuse, when women are

48:38

often the victims, where

48:40

does all of that live inside of you?

48:42

I mean, it's a little daunting, you know,

48:44

going out at night, dating, putting

48:47

yourself in vulnerable positions, because I hear all

48:49

of these stories about these women going out

48:51

with their friends on a Friday night, and

48:53

I'm like, I do that. And

48:55

something really bad happens to them. At

48:58

what point could that have been me, you know?

49:01

I see myself in a lot of these

49:03

situations that these women are in, and

49:05

it's almost just like, okay, if it happens, when

49:08

it happens, which is kind of a scary thought,

49:10

because it's just so prevalent. I

49:13

feel very jaded. I feel like everyone out

49:15

there is a sex offender. Would you say

49:17

that since you became a police

49:20

officer, and particularly a detective,

49:22

have your friends said you've

49:24

changed? Have they said, like, you

49:26

didn't used to be that way, you used to

49:28

be more carefree? Yes. I think

49:31

I've noticed it myself, and I pointed out,

49:33

but, you know, even my sister, we're really

49:35

close, will be in a

49:37

situation, and I just automatically think the worst of

49:39

it. And she's like,

49:41

wow, like, I wouldn't have thought

49:43

about that. You're thinking, like, criminals

49:46

and bad people everywhere. But yeah,

49:48

I feel like I've lost some

49:50

of that, like, fun personality, that

49:52

carefree, glass-half-full, optimistic part of myself.

49:55

Maybe it'll come back soon. That's such

49:58

an interesting case, and what I... like about

50:00

it is, first of all, that Nicole is

50:02

safe. And hats off to

50:04

John and Susan. We need more citizens like

50:06

that. But it goes back

50:08

to my question of, if your

50:10

suspect is deceased, how much of an investigation

50:13

is there? And really glad

50:16

and impressed that you just go to the

50:18

mat anyway, because you find out

50:20

all this information about

50:22

this person, which obviously will

50:25

inform other investigations going forward,

50:27

even though Joseph ends

50:29

up having shot himself in the head.

50:33

I just think you can't overstate crossing

50:35

the T's and dot in the I's

50:37

in your line of work in particular.

50:39

So thank you. Thank you. Nice work,

50:42

Jamie. I'm proud of you. Yeah, good job.

50:44

Jamie, absolutely fascinating case. Thank you. Yeah,

50:46

it was great. Thank you. Thanks so

50:49

much for having me. Hey,

50:59

small town fam. So for

51:01

those of you keeping track, you've

51:03

probably figured out that this is

51:05

the last episode of season 14.

51:08

I know. But hey, I have

51:11

a big surprise for you. Instead

51:13

of taking the summer off like

51:15

we usually do to regroup and

51:17

record new episodes, this

51:19

summer, we have something really

51:22

special, really fantastic for you.

51:25

It's called Beyond Recognition, and it's coming

51:27

to the small town Dick's feed on

51:29

July 19. Here's

51:32

a preview. Logan, Soren, hit

51:34

the play button. It's

51:41

a serene September morning in 1935, about

51:45

two miles north of the Scottish

51:48

farming village of Moffat, an

51:51

area known as the Devil's

51:53

Beef Tub. It's

51:55

a beautiful area, despite the name, an

51:57

isolated region of deep ravine.

52:00

rolling green hills and

52:02

massive chunks of rock that punch out

52:05

from the earth like gnarled

52:07

stone fists. The

52:09

River Annan winds through it all,

52:12

flowing out to the sea. It's

52:15

a lonely striking place that

52:17

attracts hikers and nature lovers

52:19

from around the United Kingdom.

52:22

People like 24 year old Susan

52:24

Johnson and her 19 year

52:27

old brother Alfred. Susan

52:29

and Alfred are tourists from the

52:31

Glasgow area just out for a

52:33

morning stroll on a lovely fall

52:36

day. Birds are

52:38

chirping, the skies are blue.

52:41

Then crossing an old

52:43

stone bridge, Susan

52:45

and Alfred stumble upon a brutal

52:48

scene so dark and out of

52:50

place it's hard for them

52:52

to make sense of what

52:54

they're actually seeing. They'd

52:56

gone there on a fishing holiday and

52:59

had been out walking. That's

53:02

Susan's niece, Sheila Livingstone.

53:05

Alfred was her father. But apparently

53:07

Susie had looked over the

53:10

bridge and seen

53:12

what she thought was a woman's

53:14

hand and father had

53:16

scrambled her down into the ravine

53:19

and he had unwrapped one of

53:21

the parcels and seen

53:23

a face looking

53:26

up at him. Except that

53:28

it's not actually a face, not

53:31

anymore. The skin has

53:33

been completely removed so

53:36

have the eyes, the nose, the

53:38

lips, the ears and teeth.

53:41

They've all been cut away. It's

53:43

absolutely unimaginable. Alfred

53:46

stares down in shock at this thing,

53:50

this adult head

53:52

wrapped in a child's onesie.

53:55

Aunt Susie was a very

53:57

talented fisherman and father. was

54:00

a great shot. They slayed

54:02

everything that moved and ate it,

54:05

so that they were quite used to

54:07

things gruesome. But I

54:09

can assure you, they weren't used to

54:11

anything like this. The

54:15

choking stench of decomposition drifts up to

54:17

Susan on the bridge as

54:20

she looks down at her brother. Alfred

54:22

stands up and turns away from the

54:25

rotting head. He gazes

54:27

downstream, hoping his stomach will

54:29

settle. It's not

54:31

going to. What

54:34

he sees are more packages strewn

54:37

about on the grassy banks, arms

54:40

and legs partially wrapped

54:42

in torn cloth and newspaper.

54:45

He notices hunks of something scattered

54:47

among the weeds. He's

54:49

not sure what it is, but the

54:52

flies and maggots have already figured it out.

54:55

Human flesh. The

54:59

Odd Recognition is a new limited series

55:01

coming to the Small Town Dicks podcast

55:03

feed on July 19th. Don't

55:05

miss it. Small

55:15

Town Dicks was created by detectives

55:17

Dan and Dave. The

55:20

podcast is produced by Jessica Halstead

55:22

and me, Yardley Smith. Our senior

55:24

editor is Soren Bajan, and

55:27

our editors are Christina Bracamontes

55:29

and Erin Phelps. Our

55:31

associate producers are The Real Nick Smitty

55:34

and Erin Gaynor. Gary Scott is our

55:36

executive producer and Logan Heftel

55:38

is our production manager. Our

55:41

books are cooked and cats wrangled by

55:43

Ben Cornwell. And our

55:45

social media maven is Monica Scott.

55:48

It would make our day if you

55:50

became a member of our Small Town

55:53

Fam by following us on Facebook, Instagram,

55:55

and YouTube at, at

55:57

Small Town Dicks. We love

55:59

you. hearing from you. Oh, our

56:03

groovy theme song was composed

56:05

by John Forrest. Also, if

56:08

you'd like to support the

56:10

making of this podcast, hop

56:12

on over to patreon.com/smalltowndickspodcast. There

56:15

for a small subscription fee,

56:17

you'll find exclusive content you

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can't get anywhere else. The

56:22

transcripts of this podcast are thanks

56:25

to speech docs, and they can

56:27

be found on our website, smalltowndicks.com.

56:29

Thank you, speech docs, for this

56:32

wonderful service. Smalltown

56:34

Dicks is an Audio 99 production.

56:37

Smalltown fam, thanks for listening.

56:40

Nobody is better than you.