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investing is subject to risk. Hey,

1:05

small town fam. It's Yardley. How

1:07

are you guys? I'm so

1:09

glad that you're here. The case we have

1:12

for you today is all about

1:14

hard work paying off. So

1:17

I don't know about you, but when I

1:19

was growing up, there were always grown-ups around

1:21

telling me that I should stay a kid

1:24

as long as possible. And from a very

1:26

young age, I always thought

1:28

that was so dumb because I have

1:30

no control over the passage of time.

1:33

But I also always wondered, why

1:36

do grown-ups say that? Now

1:38

that I'm a grown-up many times over and

1:40

a fairly anxious one at that, I

1:44

feel like I know why the adults in

1:46

my life hoped I'd stay young forever. Because

1:48

the older I get, the more

1:50

familiar I become with the uns.

1:53

Uncertainty, unfairness,

1:56

unimaginable, unheard

1:58

of. And the kid kindergarten

2:00

view of the world that I held as a

2:02

child where I thought if I did the right

2:04

thing I was guaranteed a happy

2:07

outcome Turns out not

2:09

to be a hard and fast rule

2:11

after all what? So

2:14

it gives me great joy to tell

2:16

you that our guest today Returning

2:19

fan favorite detective Lindsay brings

2:21

us a case where her

2:23

tenacity and hard work Payoff

2:26

in spades and end up

2:28

creating lasting positive change in the

2:30

world Here is before

2:33

you go Hi

2:37

there, I'm Yardley. I'm Dan. I'm

2:39

Dave and I'm Paul and this

2:41

is small town dicks Dave

2:43

and I are identical twins and retired

2:45

detectives from small town USA And I'm

2:47

a veteran Revolutionary

2:52

DNA tool between the three of

2:54

us We've investigated thousands of crimes

2:56

from petty theft to sexual assault

2:58

child abuse to murder Each

3:00

case we cover is told by the detective

3:02

who investigated it offering a rare personal account

3:05

of how they saw the crime Names

3:07

places and certain details have been changed to

3:09

protect the privacy of victims and their families

3:11

and although we're aware that some of our

3:13

Listeners may be familiar with these cases We

3:15

ask you to please join us in continuing

3:17

to protect the true identities of those involved

3:19

out of respect for what they've been through Thank

3:22

you Today

3:31

on small town dicks I

3:33

have the usual suspects and I'm

3:35

excited I have detective Dan. Hello

3:37

there. Hello there. I have detective

3:39

Dave Hello there Feel

3:45

like he was wondering if he should

3:47

actually even say hello say hello differently

3:49

never mind and We

3:51

have the one and only Paul holes.

3:54

Hey, hey and

3:56

small-town fam. We are so

3:59

excited to welcome back one

4:01

of your new favorites and certainly

4:03

one of ours, a ringer, the

4:05

one and only Detective Lindsay. Hello.

4:08

So listeners, I'll remind you or if you're

4:11

new to the podcast, I'll tell you for

4:13

the first time that Detective Lindsay gave us

4:16

a really compelling case in season

4:18

13 called At

4:21

Last. And

4:23

Lindsay, when you spoke to us back then,

4:25

your book had just come out. I'm

4:28

going to tell our listeners it's called

4:30

In My DNA, My Career Investigating Your

4:32

Worst Nightmares. It's the most perfect title

4:34

because I've listened to the book on

4:36

tape. It's so well

4:39

done. And my God, you Lindsay

4:41

went to the mat on so many

4:43

things. And also how

4:45

you come away from seeing the things you've

4:48

seen and still somehow managed

4:50

to be a mother, a wife, a

4:52

functioning human being in the world. It's

4:55

a superpower. Well, thank you for

4:58

saying that. I appreciate it. So

5:01

Lindsay, let's get this party started. Tell

5:03

us how this case came to you. So

5:05

this is a case that

5:07

I learned about in 2011 as a cold case. And

5:11

it was a kind of a bizarre circumstance

5:13

because I wasn't assigned the case. In fact,

5:16

this didn't even happen in my jurisdiction. This

5:19

is a crime that occurred probably, I

5:21

don't know, an hour or so from

5:23

my jurisdiction. However, I stumbled

5:26

across some really interesting information and it

5:29

kind of led me down this rabbit hole. So

5:31

this was a case that occurred back in

5:34

1980 involving a young woman named Susan

5:36

Lowe. She

5:40

was 19 years old and

5:43

she lived in the city of

5:45

Bellevue, Washington. So this was a

5:47

jurisdiction north of Seattle,

5:50

kind of a quiet bedroom community,

5:52

very affluent, neighborhood.

5:57

Susan lived with a roommate.

6:00

and she worked at a local furniture store,

6:02

and she lived a pretty quiet life.

6:05

She was just a regular young person trying

6:07

to make her way. And

6:10

on this particular evening, she decided

6:12

to stay home while her roommate

6:14

went out, and

6:16

she told her roommate that she

6:19

was going to watch the Seattle

6:21

SuperSonics basketball game that evening. And

6:24

that was the last time that anybody

6:26

heard from Susan. Her

6:28

roommate came home late

6:30

in the evening and

6:32

noticed that the apartment was dark

6:35

and assumed that Susan was asleep. And

6:38

it wasn't until the following morning that

6:40

she went to wake Susan up and discovered

6:42

that she was dead, clearly dead, that

6:46

there was a stocking wrapped around her neck,

6:48

and her roommate ran

6:51

to the neighbors, and they called

6:53

the police. So Susan's

6:55

case, it was pretty clear that

6:57

it was a home invasion. There

6:59

was no sign of

7:01

forced entry. However, a neighbor

7:03

who was interviewed during the

7:05

canvas reported that they

7:08

had been watching TV that evening, watching

7:10

Charlie's Angels, because that's what was on in 1980 on

7:12

TV. And

7:15

they heard someone knocking on

7:17

Susan's door, and then they

7:20

heard what sounded like a bang, and

7:22

then running in a muffled screen. Now,

7:25

they didn't tell anyone. They didn't call the police.

7:27

They didn't think it was apparently

7:30

anything worth noting. So

7:33

they did nothing about it. But that would be

7:35

consistent with Susan answering the door, and then this

7:37

guy forcing his way in. Wow.

7:40

And I'm guessing even if the offender left

7:42

his DNA behind, it wasn't

7:44

much used to investigators back then. Correct.

7:47

This was 1980, definitely before

7:49

DNA testing. They

7:51

did some ABO blood typing

7:53

to look at the semen that

7:56

was identified and obtained

7:58

from her autopsy. autopsy, but other

8:00

than doing that kind of blood typing,

8:03

there was no way to identify anyone.

8:06

And so this case went

8:08

cold fairly quickly after Susan

8:10

was killed. So and

8:12

before I tell you more about this case, I

8:14

have to tell you about a

8:17

place called McNeil Island. McNeil

8:19

Island used to house a prison, and

8:22

now the prison has long since been abandoned,

8:24

but they have the special commitment center out

8:26

there. The special commitment center

8:28

was opened in

8:31

1990, and it was opened

8:33

to house Washington

8:35

State's worst of the worst sex

8:37

offenders. So these are individuals

8:39

that have served their prison

8:42

sentence, and they are deemed too dangerous

8:44

to be released into the community. And

8:46

so instead of being released, they

8:48

are civilly committed to this

8:51

island. Is it only sex

8:53

offenders? Correct. The only people that live

8:55

on this island are like staff that

8:57

work out there. And

8:59

the residents themselves. Do you sleep with

9:02

one eye open? I mean, oh my

9:04

God. Is this like a transition from

9:06

prison to society? Or we're going to

9:08

keep you forever on this island is

9:10

the idea. Okay, so these

9:12

people, if they're found to meet the

9:14

definition of sexually violent predator, they

9:17

are detained on this island

9:19

indefinitely. So they could be there for the rest

9:21

of their lives. They're constantly being evaluated

9:23

to determine whether or not they can be

9:25

released. A lot of them will

9:28

never be released. Some of them do get released,

9:30

but they have to have like an ankle monitor

9:32

and they have all these rules about what they

9:34

can do. And if they violate it,

9:36

they go back. Do they have freedom of movement? No.

9:39

So it's all locked down. They

9:41

can't come and go freely. It

9:43

really is like a prison setting. And then

9:46

they have kind of like a transitional area

9:48

on the island where they can live in

9:50

these cottages as they're getting ready to transition.

9:52

But it's still locked down. It's

9:55

like Alcatraz. Yeah. You're out here

9:57

to keep you away from people.

10:00

Away from reuniting with the mainland.

10:03

Yeah, there's nothing else going on out there

10:05

are other than going to this facility. There's

10:07

no reason for anyone to go. In fact,

10:09

I'm not sure you can go unless you

10:11

have a reason. and how seismic. New island

10:14

from shore. See like not far, not allow.

10:16

I mean it's far enough that you have

10:18

to take a ferry. can't fly across. Or

10:20

anything much. Really

10:22

is like Alcatraz a way. Yeah,

10:24

yeah. This place

10:26

over. The. Years since,

10:28

Nineteen Ninety has housed some around

10:31

four hundred civilly committed sex offenders.

10:33

So. Back and

10:36

Twenty Eleven. I was working on

10:38

a cold case and. Interacting with

10:40

some folks at the Department Corrections

10:42

in Washington just trying to run

10:44

down some. Information about says

10:46

bags and we just got

10:48

on. This conversation about Dna

10:51

and something prompted me to

10:53

ask whether or not the

10:55

Dna samples from. All

10:58

the sex offenders on. Mcneil.

11:00

Island had been collected and

11:02

put into Potus. And

11:05

know that's not it

11:07

is. I found out that

11:09

there were about forty. Of these

11:11

guys out on this island

11:13

who never have their Dna

11:16

collected which was just something

11:18

to eat. So. I. Reach

11:20

out to. The

11:22

Special Commitment Center and ask about

11:25

these individuals and off that they

11:27

go and collect samples from these

11:29

guys. and I was pretty much

11:32

blown off on. You

11:34

know they initially told me well you know

11:36

we do collect their dna. We discussed it

11:38

on the lab. Which.

11:40

Wasn't helpful. Because.

11:42

As we know, some of these guys will never go

11:44

out and even if they do get out, do you

11:46

really want to be collecting the Dna on the way

11:48

out and then have to go find them? After

11:51

he they hit to a new case

11:53

so that thought process of just completely

11:55

backwards to me. A city of

11:57

the highlights extreme. incompetence

12:00

in failing to understand the

12:03

nexus between how that might

12:05

be useful evidence. And

12:08

it happens, like certain lanes of the

12:10

criminal justice system only see what's right

12:12

ahead of them. They don't look to

12:14

the sides and they don't look back.

12:17

So I've dealt with it in

12:19

the past on a triple murder suspect

12:21

who I went to a fellow

12:24

agency in the government and said,

12:26

I need files for this person.

12:28

And they acted like not

12:31

our problem. And I'm thinking,

12:33

you guys interested in what he did over

12:35

the weekend? Maybe you want to make

12:37

it your problem and get on the right side of this.

12:39

So I'm not saying it's

12:42

an intentional incompetence. I'm just saying the

12:44

lack of foresight here is pretty alarming.

12:46

Yeah. In California, we ran

12:48

into the same type of issue

12:50

kind of in multiple layers. You

12:52

know, at one point, it

12:55

turns out that individuals on

12:57

death row did not have

12:59

their DNA up in CODIS. And

13:02

the law at the time, it was just

13:04

a misdemeanor to refuse to provide a sample.

13:07

So what are death row inmates going to

13:09

do if they being asked, hey, we want

13:11

your DNA, right? So

13:14

the law was changed. So reasonable force could be

13:16

used if they had a qualifying offense. And

13:18

if you're on death row, you have a qualifying offense.

13:21

But then we also found out that

13:24

just within the general prison population, when

13:27

inmates were dying in

13:29

custody, they weren't being sampled.

13:32

Even though the prison system actually

13:34

had a DNA sample in their

13:36

file, so to speak, they weren't

13:39

turning those over. And so there

13:41

was a big push, particularly because of

13:43

the Golden State Killer case, to get

13:45

all of these DNA samples up. And

13:48

then just like Lindsay was saying, Washington is

13:51

sampling these offenders upon release. And

13:53

some of them are never released.

13:56

Well, Nevada was doing the same thing. And

13:59

I Believe there was a case. In which Nevada

14:01

released somebody, The Dna goes into

14:03

the system, but that person after

14:06

release goes up to Washington and

14:08

kills somebody before they're caught. That's

14:10

just insane. As

14:13

also frustrated because you say go

14:15

everybody A sampled and oh no

14:17

they're not now. I

14:34

wonder what the criteria is to be

14:36

let off the island if you're so

14:38

violent that you get out of prison,

14:40

but you're not allowed to go home.

14:43

How do you convince somebody that

14:45

is then essentially rehabilitated enough to

14:48

go back into society As a

14:50

very complicated process for my understanding,

14:52

they are constantly being reevaluated and

14:55

so once they get to a

14:57

point where. A psychologist or

14:59

some ten as an expert signs off

15:02

and says they no longer meet that

15:04

criteria. To. Be a sexually

15:06

violent predator then they have. An

15:08

opportunity to go and see basically.

15:11

Like a halfway house with an ankle

15:13

monitor and you know lots of conditions

15:15

that they have to be deemed to

15:17

no longer meet this criteria have been.

15:20

Sexually. Predatory and also having

15:22

a mental abnormality that would cause

15:24

them terrorists. and all the other

15:27

detectives search shaking their. Heads now.

15:30

Roadside somebody who comes up for

15:32

parole over and over again and

15:35

was denied. And then they adjust

15:37

what they're saying, their behaviors in

15:39

order to try to satisfy what

15:42

the parole board needs in order

15:44

to allow to be released. Spoke

15:46

over and over again. When we

15:49

start talking about sexual offenders, they

15:51

have a very high recidivism rate,

15:53

even after decades of being in

15:56

custody or going through treatment and

15:58

rehabilitation. and they can be

16:00

very convincing that I'm cured, I'm

16:02

good and then they get released

16:04

and what do they do? They

16:06

re-offend. Right. So

16:09

Lindsay, that brings us back to your

16:11

question, how come we don't have all

16:13

the DNA samples from the men on McNeil

16:15

Island? So it was pretty

16:18

frustrating. I kept on reaching out, calling,

16:20

emailing and I was just kind of

16:22

getting the runaround and so I

16:24

finally decided, okay I'm gonna have to step

16:26

this up a bit because clearly I don't have

16:28

the authority to tell these people what to do.

16:31

So I ended up reaching out to the Attorney

16:33

General's office and they have an entire

16:35

unit at the AG's office that

16:37

does nothing but special cases

16:40

related to these sexual and violent predators

16:42

and so they're the ones that prosecute

16:44

these cases even though they're civil. So

16:46

I reached out to them and spoke

16:49

to the section chief for the SVP

16:51

unit and told her what was happening

16:54

and so she kind of lit a fire

16:56

under the people out there at the Special

16:58

Commitment Center to get these samples collected and

17:00

get them to the crime lab. All

17:03

in all, it took about two years which

17:05

is insane that it would take that like

17:07

I and I'm like I'll get on a

17:09

boat and go out there with some Q-tips and

17:11

swab these people myself. I mean come on but

17:14

eventually we got all of

17:16

them collected and uploaded into CODIS. Lindsay,

17:18

why are these violent sex defenders

17:21

allowed to refuse to give a

17:23

DNA sample? Well technically by

17:25

law they're not allowed to

17:27

refuse it is a crime to refuse

17:29

to provide DNA if you owe

17:31

it but it's just a gross misdemeanor. So just

17:33

like Paul pointed out you know if you're on

17:35

death row like what do you got to lose?

17:37

I mean if somebody says you owe me DNA

17:39

and if you don't do it you're gonna get

17:41

charged with a gross misdemeanor they're like great. Who

17:45

cares? Sure. And you

17:48

know it just doesn't pack a punch really I mean

17:50

it's a gross misdemeanor. So the AG

17:52

is on the case and is getting

17:54

these people who have refused to

17:56

comply. Yes so once we

17:58

got all the sample samples collected, the

18:01

lab started processing all these samples

18:03

and getting them uploaded into CODIS. And

18:06

2012, surprise,

18:09

surprise, I know you're going to be shocked when I tell you this,

18:11

there was a hit. Oh, no, really?

18:13

Yeah, right? Yeah, there was a

18:16

hit to this unsolved rape

18:19

and murder case from 1980. And

18:22

it was a complete shock because I

18:24

knew nothing about this case. You're talking about

18:26

Susan Smarter in 1980. Yes.

18:28

And when I first heard about it,

18:31

I mean, I was just floored. I

18:33

knew that there was going to be a hit at some

18:35

point. I just was kind of hoping it was going to

18:38

be one of my cases. But I was like, hey, this

18:40

is awesome. I ended up calling the

18:42

detective out of the blue. Is

18:44

this the detective who was in charge of

18:46

Susan's case? Yes. And the detective was Jerry

18:49

Johnson. And he was so

18:51

confused when I called because I'm trying to explain

18:53

to him who I am and

18:56

what my role was. And he was like,

18:58

what are you talking about? He goes, you know, I just

19:00

came to work one day and there was this crime

19:02

lab report in my mailbox and

19:04

it said there was a hit on this case. He

19:06

was like, it didn't even dawn on me why this

19:08

guy was hitting to my case now

19:11

after all this time. And

19:13

I don't think he had gotten deep enough into

19:15

the case yet to really see this guy's history.

19:19

And as it turned out, this guy was on McNeil

19:22

Island since 2000. And

19:24

I'm going to tell you his name

19:26

because it's public information, but his name is

19:28

Michael Halgren. He's the offender that ends up

19:30

matching the DNA in this case. So now

19:32

this is 2012. And prior to

19:35

2000, he had been in prison and he

19:37

had been in prison since the, I think the

19:39

mid 1990s. So it was

19:43

pretty shocking for the detective because the

19:45

detective on the case, Jerry Johnson, had

19:49

been working on this case for 15 years and

19:52

he had collected dozens

19:54

of DNA reference samples from

19:56

potential suspects in the case. And he

19:59

had gone down every. The avenue he could

20:01

possibly think as. To go down to

20:03

try to solve this case he had this

20:05

Dna profile or within code as there were

20:07

no heads and he and he was just

20:09

really convinced that the case would never be

20:11

solved. So. To just come into work

20:14

one day that your cup of coffee in one

20:16

hand to go to grab stuff at your mailbox

20:18

and it's like fan You know there's a Curtis

20:20

Hit from the crime lab. Like what is going

20:22

on here says. Pretty amazing that detective partner ended

20:24

up going out to. Make new Island

20:27

to interview this guy and Michael

20:29

Hogan completely denies knowing anything about

20:31

the case. Hey. Lindsay What is the

20:33

Dna evidence in this case? So. The

20:35

Dna evidence from this case were bouncing. Off

20:38

Labs. Okay, so you have semen

20:40

Yes as well. Semen? Yes. Okay

20:42

so you have verb detectives going

20:44

and talking to this offender. Add

20:47

debate on bring up the Dna

20:49

right away. Right now this is

20:51

perfect because Whole Drugs now making

20:53

denials. Yes, This is gold

20:56

and because at a certain point.

20:58

How. Do you explain your seem and

21:00

inside her vagina? Yes Exactly. And that

21:03

highlights investigators and how you ask questions

21:05

and the order in which you ask

21:07

questions in which questions you choose. I'm

21:10

gonna hold on to this one. A

21:12

perfect set up here is do you

21:14

know this person? Or. Were

21:16

you ever in this area and I

21:19

see no well in the back pocket

21:21

as swathed it could have never ended

21:23

up where it ended up unless suspect

21:26

was right there. So the sequence and

21:28

how you ask the questions in the

21:30

wording is. Really important.

21:33

They. i've got a case in which

21:35

are investigator went where he was a

21:38

sex worker that had been strangled her

21:40

body was dumped bad tunnel semen man

21:42

though this a best skater goes right

21:44

in and immediately conferences guys and is

21:47

likewise receive an inside the sex workers

21:49

and he goes i have sex with

21:51

hookers done the you know he'd basically

21:54

it's a softball pits the offender hit

21:56

that ball out of the park and

21:58

this caused this kid to

22:01

languish until a

22:04

DNA hit was found on a second victim who

22:06

was not a sex worker. And

22:08

now it's a serial killer. We know

22:10

that. But this is where

22:12

having that experience and understanding like

22:14

Dave was talking about, you just

22:16

don't rely on the DNA evidence.

22:18

You still need to have an

22:21

interview strategy when you talk to

22:23

the offender. Have them

22:25

make statements. Yeah. So

22:27

they don't tell Hallgren about the DNA

22:30

initially. They just ask him questions about

22:32

his whereabouts. And he was a machinist

22:34

in the area at the time of the

22:36

homicide. So he had a reason to be in that area. And he

22:38

was from the area. But he

22:40

said he was engaged at the time,

22:42

never would have cheated on his fiance.

22:44

And they really couldn't come up with

22:47

any connection between him

22:49

and Susan. The best they could do was

22:51

that he admitted to buying

22:53

marijuana from somebody that lived near the victim's

22:55

apartment complex. And that was about as close

22:57

as they could get to why

23:00

he would even be in Susan's

23:02

neighborhood. And I think it

23:04

was later determined that his fiance

23:06

was on a bowling league and

23:09

bowled at the same place that Susan bowled.

23:11

So, you know, the thought was maybe

23:13

Hallgren saw her there at some point and

23:15

followed her home. So if

23:17

police don't think that Hallgren and

23:19

Susan actually knew each other, talk

23:22

a little bit about the fact that the police

23:24

report also said there was no forced entry

23:26

into Susan's apartment the night she

23:28

was killed. Yeah. One of

23:30

my pet peeves, and I see this a lot. It's

23:33

not necessarily within law enforcement, but it's

23:36

definitely out there in the online community

23:39

is that when law enforcement says there

23:41

is no signs of forced entry. Now

23:44

there's an assumption, well, the victim

23:46

must have known the offender. And

23:48

there are times when offenders force themselves

23:51

in and lead physical evidence of use

23:53

of force on the structure in order

23:55

to get inside. But more

23:57

times than not, this is the

23:59

tactic. that an offender uses. And

24:01

most of the time, the victim

24:03

is answering the door. And at

24:06

this point, that bang

24:08

that Lindsay said the witness heard

24:10

is probably that door being pushed

24:12

open and slamming and

24:14

now the offender's inside. But you're not going

24:16

to see the door kick.

24:19

You're not going to see the

24:21

pry marks. So when law enforcement

24:23

says no signs of forced entry,

24:25

you can't jump to conclusions as

24:27

to the relationship between the offender

24:29

and the victim. Right. I've

24:31

got handfuls of cases of

24:33

people just randomly walking into somebody's

24:35

house. Because the door was unlocked? Yeah,

24:38

checking doors. So this is why I

24:41

preach to friends and family, have your

24:43

door locked all the time. 12 o'clock

24:46

noon on Saturday, there are folks out

24:48

there who their sense of time does

24:50

not match up with the rest of

24:52

us and boundaries. Some

24:54

folks are not deterred by a

24:57

closed door. Some folks are not deterred by

24:59

a locked window or locked door. Yeah,

25:02

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29:41

this Michael Holgren, I mean, he had

29:43

just a horrendous criminal history and we looked

29:46

at all of the things that he had

29:48

done in the past, both documented

29:50

and things that he just disclosed while

29:52

he was at the Special Commitment Center.

29:54

It was terrifying. And

29:57

you know, this other misconception about how Offenders.

30:00

The just stick or one can affect them.

30:02

He was a clear example of somebody that.

30:04

Was. Equal Opportunity wherever the

30:06

opportunity was that presented itself, that was

30:09

going to be his victims. And so

30:11

his first known rape was a

30:13

woman that was walking to work in

30:16

the morning and he saw her and

30:18

abducted her right off the street and

30:20

dragged her into his van and sexually

30:23

assaulted her. Their happened to be a

30:25

police officer nearby who heard the screams

30:27

coming from the van and ended

30:29

up intercepting and basically stopping. This in

30:32

progress and I'll grant that arrested he

30:34

went to prison. That out. And

30:37

he picked up and sex worker. In

30:39

Seattle and with posing as a

30:41

police officers. And now he's using a

30:44

ruse. say down from Blitz Attacker you no

30:46

stranger to Now I'm gonna pick up a

30:48

sex worker and pretend I'm a police officer

30:50

hands of hand caffeine her. And

30:53

see actually bailed out of the

30:55

car while it was moving. and

30:57

again the fact I have bad

30:59

luck because there's a police officer

31:01

nearby and he sees this woman

31:03

come rolling out of this vehicle

31:05

in Seattle and so good taste

31:07

and there's. A. Short pursued and he ends

31:09

up getting arrested for a second time. Goes

31:12

to prison and then instead of being

31:14

released after. That. Sentence of that,

31:16

he got sent to the Special Command

31:18

Center and that's where. He

31:21

was until twenty twelve when he was

31:23

linked to this nineteen eighty murder that

31:25

he had done. Prior. To

31:27

the other to rape said he was

31:29

convicted as well. They. See how

31:32

long this whole grains first stance in

31:34

prison after the first rate? I.

31:36

Was less than ten years. I don't remember the

31:38

exact number, but it was not very long and

31:40

I believe the second. One was like five

31:42

years. Not a long period of

31:44

time, and then he does to the

31:46

islands, right? And so while he's at

31:49

the island, he is interviewed. By.

31:51

various psychologists and he ends up

31:53

giving some really horrendous details about

31:56

some of the other crimes that

31:58

he had committed over his lifetime

32:01

that he's never been connected to. He

32:04

admitted to at least 25 instances of

32:07

peeping Tom type situations where he

32:10

would be looking into windows, indecent

32:12

exposure. Hallgren admitted

32:15

to a couple of other home

32:17

invasion sexual assaults in the same

32:19

area where this homicide took place. So

32:22

we really have no idea how many

32:24

victims he has, but I

32:26

think it's safe to say a lot. I think

32:28

it's important to

32:30

note how sex offender

32:32

treatment goes, that

32:35

in a treatment environment, sex

32:38

offenders are given opportunities to

32:40

provide a full disclosure. Let's

32:43

talk about all the worst things I've ever done in life

32:45

because we're trying to get to the bottom of this. So

32:48

we have to address all of it. Given

32:51

the nature of those

32:53

disclosures by the offender

32:55

in a treatment environment, those

32:58

are privileged conversations that cannot be

33:00

passed along to law enforcement. Why?

33:03

Because it's like talking to your doctor,

33:05

your therapist, to your attorney, to your

33:07

wife. It is a

33:10

privileged conversation and I

33:12

understand the reasoning behind it.

33:14

That if we're asking these

33:16

sex offenders to be fully

33:18

honest, how do we hold a jail

33:21

sentence over their head during the

33:24

interview? Like if they're going to

33:26

be fully honest, let them be fully honest without

33:28

arresting them at the end of that

33:31

interview because you're still

33:33

going to have to corroborate everything that

33:35

the person's claiming in this disclosure. But

33:39

I think folks would be surprised to

33:41

know that we don't get

33:43

contacted by therapists for violent sex

33:45

offenders saying, hey, in today's session,

33:48

this guy confessed to three murders.

33:51

It just doesn't happen. But I

33:53

have a question because I

33:55

thought that therapists were obligated

33:57

to report things like... murders.

34:01

Or for instance, if their patient says

34:03

that they're going to harm themselves or

34:05

somebody else, then the therapist is duty

34:07

bound to tell law enforcement

34:10

that there's danger brewing.

34:13

There are laws in all 50 states now

34:15

requiring therapists to mandatory

34:19

report. Now every state is

34:21

different also. In most of

34:23

these cases, a lot of patients

34:25

now when you sign up for therapy,

34:27

you sign forms recognizing that

34:29

if you make certain statements during

34:32

therapy that those statements can

34:34

be reported to law enforcement. The other part

34:36

of this is you have to be very

34:39

specific. So if a

34:41

child is in danger, a therapist has

34:43

a patient and the patient is relating

34:45

information about that he's going

34:47

to offend on a child, you have

34:50

to specifically identify who that child is,

34:53

what their relationship is to the

34:55

patient. There are other boxes that you

34:58

have to check. So it's not just as general

35:00

as, hey, I murdered three people and

35:02

the therapist goes and reports it to the authorities.

35:04

There are other things that have to be done

35:06

in the meantime. This is why

35:08

it's really important for therapists to ask

35:11

follow up questions like, what

35:13

three people are we talking about here? And

35:15

let's really get into the weeds of what

35:17

is this statement that was just delivered to

35:19

me as a therapist? How

35:21

do I unpack that? Right.

35:24

I see. So luckily

35:26

in this case, I was lucky enough

35:28

to go out with the

35:30

detectives to make the arrest. So

35:33

they invited me along since I had a little

35:35

hand in solving the case. And

35:37

so we took a ferry out to the

35:39

island and then we went into the facility

35:41

to get Mr. Halgren and

35:43

he was placed under arrest. And

35:46

then we got back onto this, I

35:48

guess it was a tugboat. It was

35:50

just this really bizarre situation where we're

35:52

on this boat and then they

35:54

disconnected us from the main part of

35:56

the boat. And so then we were

35:59

just like floating. in the water

36:01

until this other boat came and got us. I

36:03

mean, I was just thinking, well, I can see land. So, I mean, if

36:06

I have to swim, I will. But this

36:08

is very strange. That is so strange.

36:10

Lindsay, what does McNeil Island

36:13

look like? McNeil Island is

36:15

a small island in the Puget

36:17

Sound. It's actually not too far

36:19

from my house, believe it or

36:21

not. Yeah. And

36:24

it's like a seven-square-mile

36:27

island that is inhabited currently

36:29

by the Special Commitment Center.

36:31

How is it that Hallgren

36:33

is arrested, if he's already

36:35

in custody, in some form

36:37

on this island? Because when

36:39

he was on the island, he was not technically

36:42

incarcerated. They consider this

36:44

a treatment facility similar

36:47

to like a mental hospital, but

36:49

a little different. And

36:51

so they're considered residents of this

36:53

facility. It's not run by Department of

36:55

Corrections. It's actually run by Department

36:57

of Social and Health Services. So

37:00

Lindsay, you're standing on a tugboat

37:04

with the detective, Mr.

37:06

Johnson, and Mr. Hallgren. How

37:09

does that go down? I mean, it was

37:11

interesting. I think at that point, Hallgren knew the jig

37:13

was up. I mean, I don't think he was surprised

37:15

to see a show up there to tell him he

37:17

was going to jail. So

37:19

I don't remember him really saying anything.

37:22

It was kind of a quiet ride. But it had

37:25

been a while since he'd been off

37:27

the island. Yeah. I mean, they

37:29

have to take him off if they have medical appointments and things like

37:31

that. So

37:33

I don't know when the last time he had been out was.

37:36

So did Hallgren plead guilty

37:39

to Susan's murder? He did, yes.

37:42

So it was kind of interesting. Susan

37:44

Lowe's case was the very first that

37:46

the King County Prosecutor's Office looked at when

37:48

they formed their cold case unit in, I

37:50

think, 2005 or 2006. And

37:54

so it was pretty exciting for

37:56

them to be able to move forward with

37:59

this case. And as

38:01

you can imagine, the fact that

38:03

this was a case from 1980,

38:05

they had concerns about finding witnesses

38:07

and all of the things that come

38:09

along with the trial this many years

38:11

later. So I think

38:13

everyone was relieved, including Susan's family,

38:15

that Hallgren agreed to take a

38:18

plea. And

38:20

his ask was that he just

38:22

wanted the opportunity to be able to go back

38:24

to the Special Commitment Center at some point once

38:27

he served a sentence if he was still

38:29

alive. So I think

38:31

Mr. Hallgren was sentenced to 14 and

38:34

a half years in prison. So I don't

38:36

know that he'll ever get out of prison.

38:38

That doesn't seem very long, though. So

38:41

you have to keep in mind with these

38:43

cold cases that they have to sentence these

38:46

offenders based on the sentencing guidelines from whenever

38:48

the crime occurred. You know, today

38:50

they would get 30 years or

38:52

whatever, but back in 1980, the sentencing guidelines

38:55

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a.com/safety today. Lindsay,

40:24

detective Johnson is spending a ton

40:26

of time on this case. Yet

40:28

Holgrem, the offender is in custody.

40:31

And if they had just taken

40:33

his DNA sample up front, it

40:36

would have saved so much

40:38

time on law enforcement

40:40

side to close this case out.

40:43

Yes, I get on my soap box when I

40:45

talk about lawfully owed DNA. And those

40:47

are the offenders that slip through the

40:49

cracks and don't have their DNA collected.

40:52

And, you know, I'm a big

40:55

fan of genetic genealogy, but

40:57

there are certainly cases where the case could have

40:59

been solved for a $30 buckle swab, as

41:03

opposed to spending $10,000 on a genealogy

41:05

case. And, you know, the thousands of

41:07

man hours that go into investigating one

41:09

of these cases and the

41:11

years that the families spend wondering

41:14

what happened. So it's

41:16

frustrating because we have a system in place.

41:18

We already have it. It's called CODIS. So

41:21

we just have to use it. Law

41:23

enforcement is also dropping the ball. You

41:26

know, this is where we have registered

41:28

sex offenders who are out in the

41:30

community. They lawfully have

41:33

to provide a DNA sample. And

41:35

many have yet there

41:37

are many that have not. I have

41:39

a guy that I looked

41:41

at during my investigation on Golden State Killer,

41:43

who was hopping fences and raping women in

41:46

Sacramento back in the 1970s when the

41:48

Golden State Killer was doing the same thing.

41:51

He was a registered sex offender. His

41:54

DNA Wasn't in the

41:56

system. I Called up the agency,

41:58

which is in the Northern part

42:00

of the Northern California small agency

42:02

and he was a registered sex

42:05

offender with that jurisdiction and I

42:07

said how come you have not

42:09

collected his dna and the detective

42:11

I talked to said i don't

42:14

know how to do that. And

42:18

I was immediately on the phone

42:20

with California D O J who

42:22

manages Appro Grab and I was

42:24

like you get somebody out there

42:26

to train this agency and you

42:28

make sure you get to this

42:30

guy that I'm looking at as

42:32

the Golden State Killer. Get.

42:34

Him sampled in get him into

42:36

the system. That. Type

42:39

of situation has happened over and over

42:41

again. Yeah, I mean it's so frustrating

42:43

because and that yeah I mean I

42:45

won't be like a whole nother episodes

42:48

for me to talk about that, but

42:50

anyway, they're just so many different ways

42:52

people slip through and it's ridiculous in

42:55

the seen it especially. Did.

42:57

Holdren ever recounts.

43:00

A. What happened that

43:02

night was susan through Hall

43:04

grunts as he never did

43:06

give an account of what

43:08

happened. After the case

43:10

is solved, we identify Mr.

43:12

Hogan as the perpetrator. He

43:15

pleads guilty, do housework, or

43:17

does Detective Johnson have contact

43:19

with Seasons family in out

43:21

as ago. Yeah. And

43:24

my recollection is that. He

43:26

had contact and this is Detective

43:28

John Sense with season sister she

43:31

actually lived up in Canada at

43:33

seated. Come down for the

43:35

sentencing as well as seasons.

43:37

Roommate. I think going.

43:41

Back. For the sentencing as well so

43:43

it was really great to meet them

43:46

and as he. That's when my favorite

43:48

parts about doing called case work as

43:50

to be able to me and the

43:52

people that were impacted and isn't just

43:55

to see what tenants an impact that

43:57

resolution. in the case has had a name

43:59

and Susan's sister actually reached out to

44:01

me quite a while

44:03

after the sentencing. She was beginning

44:06

to do work with victim advocacy

44:08

as a result of her sister's

44:10

case. And she

44:12

was just really a wonderful person. And

44:14

she just was genuinely thankful, but also

44:17

very interested in just the process and

44:19

just kind of wanted to know,

44:21

like, you know, how did this all happen? And

44:24

how do these cases work? So

44:26

that was really nice to be

44:28

able to interact, especially since this

44:30

technically was not my case, but

44:32

I enjoyed working on it so much.

44:34

I think you probably felt like it was

44:36

partly your case, though. Yeah,

44:38

I actually developed a great

44:40

relationship with Detective Johnson and he and

44:43

I had never worked together prior to

44:45

that. So it was great.

44:47

And I think just a lot of new

44:49

relationships were created as a

44:51

result of this case. Of being

44:53

a squeaky wheel. Yay

44:56

for the squeaky wheel. Lindsay,

44:58

I've read your book and

45:00

you investigated a lot of cold cases. When

45:03

you take stock of your career, which

45:05

you're able to do a little bit now, especially I

45:07

think when you write a book, you

45:10

now have a 40,000 foot view of your many years in law enforcement.

45:13

What's the thing that you're most proud

45:15

of? This

45:18

case is definitely at the top because I

45:20

do think that it's

45:22

very likely that Paul Grin could have just

45:24

died out there and nobody would know the

45:26

difference. I kind of wonder if the

45:29

case ever would have been solved. I

45:31

think with the advent of genetic genealogy,

45:34

hopefully they would have attempted that and

45:36

hopefully there would have been evidence left to

45:39

do that testing. And there's lots of what

45:41

ifs, but I just feel like this is one of

45:43

those cases that probably wouldn't have been solved

45:46

had it not been for turning

45:48

over rocks and asking questions and asking

45:50

why, which is kind of like the

45:53

common theme throughout my career is why,

45:55

why, why? I have to give

45:57

a lot of kudos to Lindsay in

45:59

this. The Asian she went the

46:01

extra mile. You know this was

46:03

something that to see identified as

46:05

there is a problem here and

46:07

it wasn't her fight. The you

46:09

know this is not a to

46:12

com a key issue this is

46:14

a state level as you but

46:16

see took it upon herself to

46:18

pursue it and Lindsay even though

46:20

right now you solved Susan's case.

46:22

Your efforts helps all seasons case.

46:24

Think about all the other presidents

46:27

on Mcneil Island the that are

46:29

now up in the system and

46:31

when other cases finally get around

46:33

to being worked in the Dnase

46:35

going up there, you may. Have

46:37

served a role in solving

46:39

many other cases, so this

46:42

is where just the effort

46:44

of one person can make

46:46

a huge difference. Yeah, Appreciate

46:48

that. Thank. You so much for

46:51

joining us Lindsay It's so wonderful to

46:53

have you back! I really enjoyed your

46:55

back. Have everybody goes out and get

46:57

set. you have much to be proud

46:59

as Thank you So. Much. Great

47:01

work and I like to picture us five.

47:03

So Yardley. Dan. And days Paul

47:05

and Lindsay in a van and

47:08

on a t shirt. but it's

47:10

a mystery machine. Ah

47:12

yes! On the island Or right

47:15

yes, on make the island. Are we going

47:17

to be on a barge? Maybe we could

47:19

get some fan art or censor. Nice. Yes.

47:23

Semitic View Island Ferry of Mystery

47:26

Machine with all of us in

47:28

a window and will Scooby Georgia

47:30

in Auckland. A fantastic. Lindsay

47:33

was sorry science completely tell us

47:35

that our listeners the name of

47:37

your but again so they can

47:39

can get it. Yes, my book

47:41

is called in my dna my

47:43

career investigating your Worst Nightmares and

47:45

it is available on Amazon or

47:47

in the Noble Target. Walmart.

47:50

Or my website pretty much wherever. You.

47:52

Get Bucks Since has Sex

47:54

Sex Again, Lindsay and listeners.

47:56

You can also hear Detective

47:58

Lindsay on Season Two. of the

48:00

briefing room where we talk

48:02

about child abduction cases. Yes. Oh,

48:05

yes, Small Town Fam. If you haven't

48:07

heard that episode of the briefing room, it's

48:10

a great one. All

48:12

right, everybody. Y'all are

48:14

free to go. Small Town Fam,

48:17

you guys are great. We'll see

48:19

on the other side. Small

48:29

Town Dicks was created by detectives

48:31

Dan and Dave. The

48:34

podcast is produced by Tzotzakahosnett.

48:36

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48:39

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48:43

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48:57

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49:51

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