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And police stations across the country, officers

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start their shifts in the briefing room.

1:01

It's a place where law enforcement can speak openly

1:03

and candidly about safety, training,

1:06

policy, crime

1:07

trends, and more. We think it's

1:09

time to invite you in, so pull

1:11

up a chair. Welcome to

1:13

the briefing room. Today's

1:28

briefing comes at the request of someone you

1:30

all know, Yardley Smith. Hi,

1:32

Yardley.

1:33

Hi, Dave. Hi. So happy to be

1:35

here. We're also joined by my brother,

1:37

Dan. Hello, Yardley question

1:40

today is inspired in part by conversations

1:42

we had last week with defense

1:43

attorney, Lisa. So Yardley,

1:46

I'm turning it over to you. Thank

1:48

you, Dave. I'm really excited about this

1:50

subject. So we call this

1:52

episode of the briefing room, the Because

1:56

you guys have often talked

1:58

about the way you interview suspects, you

2:01

call that the DancePF

2:03

I think it's one of the most fascinating aspects

2:06

of your job. And

2:08

it's funny you guys kind of you often

2:10

kind of gloss over it. But

2:12

the way you interview,

2:15

the way you do the dance is

2:17

so nuanced that I think

2:19

our listeners would really enjoy hearing

2:21

your perspective on it, like how

2:23

do you conduct a suspect interview,

2:25

particularly if you're dealing with somebody

2:28

who's done a person crime as you say.

2:30

So they've hurt someone injured them,

2:33

violated another person in

2:35

the worst possible way. So

2:37

how do you interview a person like that?

2:40

And gain their trust

2:42

so that they don't shut down and say,

2:44

I want a lawyer and then the interview is over.

2:46

Uh-huh. Interviews

2:50

for me, I separated them kind

2:52

of into two categories. One is, I'm familiar

2:54

with the case because I've been investigating

2:57

it for days or weeks. Even

2:59

hours. And then

3:02

suspect is taken into custody

3:04

or comes in for questioning

3:07

and now I have a shot to take a run

3:09

at the suspect. The other is acute.

3:12

Like, incident just happened, still

3:15

have investigators out kind of

3:17

looking for leads, canvassing, and neighborhood,

3:20

etcetera. I'm waiting for reports

3:22

to come in. A lot of those reports,

3:25

if that's an acute case, are gonna be verbal,

3:27

like face to face. You haven't

3:30

even written your report yet. So my

3:33

strategy is a

3:35

little bit different depending on which case

3:37

I'm getting if it's, you know, historical

3:40

case or it just happened today. How

3:43

I prepare depends on the caliber of

3:45

interviews that have already taken place

3:48

in that case. So say it's

3:50

a case that I've already been investigating

3:52

for days or weeks, and

3:55

I'm very familiar with the initial reports

3:57

that have come through I'm already,

3:59

you know, well versed in the facts of

4:01

the case. When I go into

4:03

an interview room, all I'm thinking is,

4:05

let's get the truth. And

4:08

I wonder what this guy or this

4:10

I'll say guy because in my

4:12

caseloaders usually male offenders.

4:15

We should tell our new listeners who

4:17

might not know you that your

4:20

former caseload was investigating sex

4:22

crimes and child abuse.

4:24

Right. On a case

4:26

that I've been investigating, I've already

4:28

done a ton of background on my suspect

4:30

that I probably already run as computerized

4:32

criminal history. So I know what

4:35

types of things he's been arrested for in the

4:37

past. And if it lines up with

4:39

the type of case that I have at this point,

4:41

I'm gonna look at social media. What

4:43

kind of photos does the guy post? Does he

4:45

family oriented? Does he have a bunch of

4:48

biblical quotes on his page? Because

4:50

those allow me to explore

4:53

threads. Religious people

4:56

know that eventually they're gonna be judged

4:58

before god. And they wanna

5:00

get things right whether on this earth and part

5:02

of that is the truth and validating

5:06

a victim's statement or a victim's

5:08

disclosure So

5:10

are people with consciences out there

5:13

who are like, I gotta get this off my chest.

5:15

There are other straight evil people that just

5:17

don't give a shit. And

5:19

they'll hurt whomever if it benefits

5:22

themselves. They don't care

5:23

about, you know, the wake of

5:26

damage they do. If you see

5:29

somebody post a lot of religious scripture,

5:32

let's say, on their Facebook page,

5:34

can you use that as a

5:36

way in to say, hey,

5:39

I know that you believe in God

5:41

and

5:42

you will be judged by God

5:44

when everything is said and done.

5:47

I probably wouldn't go to the judged

5:49

piece of that because my job is

5:51

the investigator is

5:53

to not judge. I'm there to

5:55

arrange a potential meeting between a

5:58

court, a DA, a defense attorney, and

6:00

defendant. One of my big pet

6:02

peeves with police officers is

6:04

you've seen the worst of humanity. Day

6:07

in and day out, you see horrible things.

6:09

Even if you're a new cop. So for a

6:11

police office officer to go into an interview

6:13

and be judgmental or snippy

6:17

or have attitude, I'm always like,

6:19

while either the game is too fast for

6:21

you. You've lost sight of

6:23

the finish line, which is, let's

6:25

just get to the truth, the act is already

6:28

over with. My feelings

6:30

about the suspect and what they did

6:32

are completely irrelevant. Has no

6:34

bearing on the case whatsoever. The facts

6:37

do. So I want a police

6:39

officer who's doing questioning to be thorough,

6:41

to be inquisitive, don't

6:44

just ask a question to move on. If they give

6:46

you little bit more narrative, I'm

6:48

like, well, let's go down that thread.

6:50

I can get back to my not prepared,

6:53

but I had kind of a general idea of

6:55

what I want to do in an interview. And

6:57

if I think that I'm gonna get confession that

6:59

day, I'm gonna go for the confession.

7:02

If it's clear, the person's

7:04

probably not gonna ever confess to this because

7:06

they probably have previous exposure to the

7:08

criminal justice system and everyone's taught,

7:10

don't ever talk to the cops. You

7:12

see it all the time. So

7:15

someone who spent time in

7:16

prison, I usually was like, they've already

7:18

been down this road. They're probably not going to talk to me.

7:20

And do you, Miranda Dyes,

7:23

people at that point? Or

7:25

are you afraid that if you read them their

7:27

Miranda

7:27

rights, that they won't actually talk

7:29

to you, that they'll just climb up? Well,

7:32

it depends. So situations

7:35

where you have to memorize versus

7:37

some of the gray area versus you don't have

7:39

to memorize, there's no gray area whatsoever.

7:41

There's differences. And if

7:44

you're familiar with the differences, then

7:47

there are times where I might

7:49

be able to get more statements from someone

7:51

totally lawful and not violating anybody's

7:53

rights, but it's all determined

7:56

on this reasonableness. Would a reasonable

7:58

person feel like they were free to leave? Would

8:00

a reasonable person feel like they were being

8:02

accused of a crime? In

8:04

those situations, if somebody is not free

8:06

to leave and they feel like they're being accused

8:09

of a crime, I need to get Miranda

8:11

out front. There are other situations

8:14

where the interview turns and

8:16

you realize, okay, now we're getting into

8:18

Miranda territory. I need to get that

8:21

handled as soon as possible. So

8:23

when we talk about familiarity with

8:25

someone's rights, you know, someone being

8:27

familiar with their

8:28

rights, they've already been down this path. They've

8:31

had attorneys in the past. You know,

8:33

because of previous arrangements or previous

8:35

court cases that they've gone through. So they've

8:38

they've heard all this advice you know, and

8:40

and lawyers typically tell their clients,

8:42

don't talk to the

8:43

cops.

8:44

Don't say anything. Don't

8:45

say anything. Right. In a situation

8:47

where somebody has not had that

8:49

exposure to the criminal justice system,

8:52

they're gonna wanna cooperate. They're going

8:54

to want to talk. They wanna

8:56

explain themselves. They wanna explain an

8:58

alibi or why they did

9:00

something or how they didn't do

9:02

something. They're they're being accused of.

9:05

Well, and sometimes they just flat out think they're

9:07

smarter than you. Really, the first part

9:09

of an interview is I'm gathering information.

9:11

Right? And they

9:13

are too. A lot of times, they're gathering

9:15

information. They wanna know how much we know.

9:18

So holding on to some of those things

9:20

as a strategy. Sometimes you

9:22

hit them right in the face with it and

9:25

you tell them what you know. I remember

9:27

doing interviews where I started

9:29

out the interview with a suspect that

9:31

I was familiar with. And

9:34

we got in the room. I read her

9:36

Miranda rights tour. Said,

9:38

do you wanna talk to me? She's like, yeah, sure.

9:41

And I just pulled out a surveillance photo

9:43

from Walmart and I put it on the

9:45

table and I said, who's that? That was the

9:47

first thing that I set. And she looked at

9:49

it and she goes, I don't know who that is.

9:52

said, do you see that tattoo

9:54

on the right arm? And

9:56

she says, yeah. And I said, well, you have the same

9:58

tattoo on your right arm. That's you.

10:00

And she's like, okay, that's

10:02

me. I mean,

10:04

like one minute confession. And then

10:06

you go down the road. Now I can

10:09

back up a little bit and I can say,

10:11

so what's going on in your life? Right

10:13

now that you are out committing

10:15

these crimes. You know, days the

10:17

same way, and I I learned a lot from Don,

10:20

detective Don, and watching him

10:22

interview, you can have a game

10:24

plan going in, but depending on the

10:26

suspect, they're either onboard and or

10:29

not on board with that game plan, so you

10:31

better be nimble. And

10:33

I always found it, you know, of course,

10:35

you have some sort of strategy, you have to

10:37

cover the elements of the crime in your

10:39

interview while you're trying to get a confession.

10:42

But you have

10:44

to be light on your feet

10:46

and adapt to

10:48

whoever you're talking to, who's across the table

10:50

from you. Gabe's really good at that.

10:52

I've watched his interviews. When Dave had

10:54

a big case come in and he was gonna

10:56

sit down and interview somebody, I would always

10:58

watch. The interviews. And,

11:01

you know, a day or two later, if we

11:03

ended up hanging out at my

11:05

house or his house, we'd talk

11:07

about it. And he'd asked for feedback, and

11:10

I'd give him feedback. I'd tell him what he did

11:12

really well. And I

11:14

would point out, like, in one of

11:16

Dave's first interviews, I pointed

11:18

out, it was like, you shouldn't have taken a break right

11:20

there. He was, like, nibbling on

11:22

the hook right there. He was almost gonna bite the

11:24

suspect was?

11:25

Yeah. And you got

11:27

uncomfortable and tired.

11:29

And so you literally left the room

11:31

because I was uncomfortable. You know,

11:34

you're a new ish detective. And

11:37

interviewing someone in plainclothes is different

11:39

than interviewing someone in a patrol uniform.

11:42

It's a different vibe in the room.

11:44

It's a different look on camera. And

11:47

I have always gotten more out of people when

11:49

I'm in plain clothes. Am I playing

11:51

close, typically, unless I got

11:53

called out in the middle of the night, was business casual,

11:56

suit and no tie. Business casual.

11:59

There's a formality to that, but there's

12:01

also a casual quality

12:03

to

12:03

it. A comfortability. Like, you're

12:05

comfortable in this environment and

12:07

therefore,

12:08

that might go long way towards putting them

12:11

at ease. Right. And from the criminal

12:13

or the suspect side of this equation, I've

12:16

heard in the past. They're like, I wanna talk to

12:18

a detective, even when I was a sergeant

12:20

after having been a detective for a

12:22

long time. I would

12:24

have suspects who have no familiarity with

12:26

me and they'd say, well, I'll just talk to a detective.

12:29

And I'd be like, well, you're gonna be talking to

12:31

a detective that I trained. And

12:34

has less than six months on

12:37

this particular assignment, but I can arrange

12:39

that absolutely because I understand the dynamic.

12:42

And how do new detectives get that exposure?

12:44

You hand it off to him. Here. This is your

12:46

case. I'm certain you have more

12:50

facts than I do. I'm just dealing with

12:52

this person on this contact out in the

12:54

streets. And this

12:56

person has an attempt to locate

12:58

flag on them and and I call the detective

13:00

that put this flag on them in the system, when

13:02

the police come across you, your name's gonna

13:04

get run, they're gonna call a detective, and they're gonna

13:06

say, hey, See if that person's willing

13:09

to come down to the police station. I'm driving in

13:11

right now. That detective, although

13:13

new, is gonna have more pertinent

13:16

facts for the case than I am.

13:18

So I'd be like, absolutely, I can get you

13:20

a detective. No problem. Freeze

13:23

up my patrol guys to go out and

13:26

chase taillights and, you know, deter

13:28

crime, do what we're supposed to do.

13:37

Going back to Dan's interview

13:40

with the female where he confronts her right

13:42

away, He does that based on experience

13:44

with the suspect familiarity. And

13:47

knowing, well, I've already been in this room

13:49

before with this person, And we did

13:51

the runaround game for an hour and half.

13:53

He got the hard part out of the way right right

13:55

at the beginning. And now it's Okay.

13:58

Well, you've admitted that this is you using the

14:00

stolen credit card or whatever the case was.

14:02

Now we can go to what led up to

14:04

this. And that

14:07

is powerful because you can always go back to

14:09

that person if they're starting to stray, say, listen,

14:11

you already admitted to the heaviest part of this

14:13

whole case. That it's you committing

14:15

this crime. So don't worry about the

14:17

other stuff. Like, they

14:20

might help you. They can help explain

14:22

things.

14:23

Dan, why in this particular

14:25

case with this woman, for instance, who had the tattoo,

14:27

why did you ask her what's going on in your

14:29

life? I had a pretty good idea,

14:31

and typically, it's substance abuse, and

14:35

I'm sensitive to that. So

14:39

you always wanna know the why. Right?

14:41

And I think that with

14:43

these people, if I can empathize with them,

14:46

and try to get an understanding of what's

14:48

going on in their life if they're not happy

14:50

with the direction of their life. Some

14:52

people they just flat out aren't ready

14:54

to quit using. And they're gonna

14:57

commit crimes to support their habit

15:00

until they're ready. Sometimes

15:02

they're ready in that interview

15:04

room. And they they are begging

15:06

for an intervention, and sometimes

15:09

it's the police that provide that intervention. So

15:12

I wanna know those things. And I think it

15:14

also builds rapport and trust between

15:17

me and whoever I'm interviewing. So

15:19

if they trust you, they're probably more

15:21

apt to tell you more. Right? They're

15:23

gonna give you everything. If they don't

15:26

trust you, they're not. My job

15:28

in that interview room is to gather information.

15:30

Right? Try to get confession also

15:33

in a lot of the cases that I worked knew

15:35

that there was gonna be a lot of follow-up on the back

15:37

end. So I've got, say, someone who

15:39

burglarized the house, stole credit cards,

15:42

stole guns, jewelry. I

15:45

wanna build trust with that person. And

15:48

now let's go down the road of trying to figure

15:50

out where all that stuff is I can recover

15:52

it and get it back to the victims. And

15:55

many times, I would tell people like,

15:57

hey, you know, some of that jewelry stole

15:59

Those were heirloom pieces that had been in the family

16:02

for a hundred years. The woman's

16:04

ring was her grandmother's

16:07

wedding ring. Those things are important.

16:09

So if I can track those things down, it's

16:11

really good for my victims too. I've had

16:14

victims just straight up break down and

16:16

cry when I return property to

16:18

him because they thought it's gone

16:20

forever.

16:21

And honestly, it's in the suspect's

16:23

best interest too. They show compassion.

16:25

They show remorse. They

16:28

show, hey, I wanna write this wrong that

16:30

I did. I'm

16:32

caught, let's just give the people back

16:34

their property or at least I can tell them where I

16:36

last saw it because property in

16:39

this world of theft and substance

16:41

affected folks has

16:44

probably

16:44

changed hands a few times if it's been more than

16:46

a week. So to track that stuff down

16:48

is difficult but it also shows

16:51

some willingness on the suspect's part

16:53

to show some compassion, be contrite,

16:56

and hey, I

16:58

screwed up. Let me try to fix

17:00

it. And I would always tell these people

17:02

when I write my report, this is gonna

17:04

go to the district attorney. And

17:07

do you want them to read in this report that

17:09

you are not cooperative and that you didn't care

17:11

about returning people's property or

17:14

the opposite? That you were actually

17:16

cooperative and you aided me in

17:18

recovering this

17:19

property, it's gonna look way better for

17:21

you. You're caught. You've got an

17:24

opportunity here to help yourself out.

17:26

There's huge value to that for

17:28

a suspect. There's huge value to that.

17:30

For the victim.

17:33

And does the value to the suspect,

17:35

will it necessarily or it might

17:38

lighten their

17:39

sentence? Is that what you're saying?

17:41

It can. Yeah. I

17:43

think district attorneys

17:46

that I've talked to will say this

17:48

person, they weren't cooperative at all, why should I

17:50

cut them a break? Every detective,

17:52

when you talk and present your case to a

17:54

district attorney, Those

17:56

are conversations that are had. And

17:59

DAs will flat out ask, what

18:01

do you think is appropriate in this situation?

18:04

And I'll give them my opinion. They may take it. They

18:06

may not. I've had the yeas that said,

18:09

I don't care that they helped out. They've

18:11

committed four burglaries in the last

18:13

two years. And the

18:15

first one, they did thirteen months. And

18:17

they obviously haven't learned their lessons. So guess

18:19

what? I'm hitting them with everything. And

18:21

so yeah,

18:23

those are all factors. I mean, I

18:25

will say this. I've never seen the

18:28

court go harder on somebody who was cooperative.

18:31

I can say the same thing.

18:32

Okay. Good to know.

18:34

Unless the court has no, you

18:36

know, latitude.

18:37

There's a mandatory sentence kind of thing.

18:40

Right. There's mandatory census that

18:42

have taken discretion out of judge's

18:44

hands. And Dave, for your

18:46

former caseload, which was sex crimes

18:48

and child abuse. There are a

18:50

number of mandatory sentences based

18:54

on the kinds of things that you'd find in their

18:56

computer or the kinds of criminal

18:59

acts that were committed. I think

19:01

it would be interesting for our listeners to

19:03

hear Obviously, it's all about

19:05

getting trust so you get as much information as

19:07

you can. But what if you're

19:10

faced with somebody for

19:12

you, let's say, Dave, the disclosure

19:14

from the victim is highly credible.

19:17

This person is a fucking scumbag.

19:20

How do you present yourself

19:23

like,

19:24

hey, listen, I don't think you're bad

19:26

person. I think you made some bad decisions. It's

19:29

going back to the I have

19:31

to eliminate any notion

19:33

that I'm the judge here because I am not.

19:36

And for me to put myself in that

19:38

position shows a

19:40

lack of professionalism, it shows

19:42

a lack of skill, It shows a

19:44

complete disregard for any strategy

19:46

you have to get someone to talk because

19:49

now you're holier than thou. And

19:51

you're standing in judgment. You

19:53

think about kids when they screw up and

19:55

they have to go face their parents. They've,

19:57

you know, got a frowny face to get their head

19:59

down, their posture is very

20:01

submissive. I want a suspect

20:04

to contribute to the conversation. I don't wanna

20:06

have to carry that conversation. I

20:08

want them to do most of the talking. I've

20:10

never ever seen someone

20:13

be judgmental, a police officer,

20:15

and have it turn out to be success.

20:18

Because criminals and suspects and people

20:20

with no exposure to the criminal

20:22

justice

20:22

process, we

20:24

all

20:24

know what it feels like to feel judged.

20:26

Yeah. To feel ashamed. And I'm like, well,

20:28

I don't wanna talk to this guy. He's sitting here

20:30

judging everything I say. So when

20:33

I'm in a room, even if it's the most horrible

20:35

thing I've ever heard, I can always

20:37

say, hey, man, I've been in

20:39

this room. I've heard lot of horrible

20:41

things in this room. There's nothing you're gonna

20:43

tell me that surprises me. Is it

20:45

a bluff? Is it a lie? Sometimes

20:49

because you don't know what they're about to tell you.

20:51

And then your bar moves. And

20:54

you're like, okay. Well, now my bar is

20:56

way up here. Holy shit. I did not see

20:58

that coming. So

21:01

taking judgment out of your

21:03

interview tactics. Number

21:05

one, be familiar with the elements

21:07

of every crime that you're confronting the

21:09

suspect about. Because some

21:11

of those crimes have an element that if you

21:13

don't have that element upfront, the rest

21:15

of the elements below it don't even

21:17

matter. What do you mean?

21:20

I'm talking about, like, there are crimes

21:23

when it has to do with intent. There's

21:25

plenty of cases out there where somebody screwed

21:27

up. But they weren't meaning to.

21:29

They were reckless or they were negligent.

21:33

It wasn't intentional. Right.

21:35

I see. So, for example, intention

21:38

can mean the difference between first degree

21:40

murder, second degree murder,

21:43

or manslaughter. In the

21:45

scope of the

21:46

law, how you charge somebody a lot

21:49

of that has to do with intent.

21:51

Right? Exactly. The hit and

21:53

run case where the gentleman ended

21:55

up on the top of the car, had to go several

21:57

box west before being taken off of the top

22:00

of the

22:00

car? Impact.

22:01

Yes. That's what we called the episode

22:03

on small town dicks. An impact,

22:06

there was no intent by the driver

22:08

to hit this pedestrian in

22:10

the crosswalk. Was there negligence

22:13

and recklessness? I would argue both.

22:16

Shouldn't have been driving. Shouldn't have

22:18

stopped right there. The

22:20

act became way more egregious

22:24

because of the events that followed the several

22:26

blocks that this person was

22:28

riding on top of suspect's vehicle.

22:32

And part of my intent for one of the crimes

22:34

there would be manifesting extreme

22:37

indifference to the value of human life.

22:39

Now I would say what? That suspect did

22:41

in that case checks all the boxes. So

22:43

I know If I've got those

22:45

elements and I just checked the

22:48

big one which is manifesting extreme

22:50

indifference, I know that other things

22:53

are gonna be able to fall in the place.

22:55

I can fill in the gaps

22:56

there. So there are certain crimes

22:58

where there's an element that

23:00

is essential And

23:02

then there's other things below it that you also

23:04

need to check the box on, you know,

23:07

certain assaults with deadly weapons. Is

23:09

it reckless? Is it negligent? Is

23:11

it intentional? Is the weapon would

23:13

it cause physical harm?

23:15

Or is it capable of causing

23:18

serious physical injury and or

23:20

death. Different levels of

23:23

crimes. One, the most

23:25

serious crime and assault, especially

23:27

involving a weapon, would have to do with

23:29

what type of weapon is that? And when

23:31

it's used, can it cause serious physical injury

23:34

or death? If I hit someone

23:36

with a foam baseball bat,

23:38

it's different than hitting somebody with a

23:40

tire iron. So you

23:42

have to be familiar with the elements

23:45

of the crimes that you're going to confront your

23:47

suspect over. And there are times where I'd

23:49

be like, I've said it before, don't

23:51

know what crime that is, but I'm certain

23:53

you can't do it because it's gonna be in

23:55

this family of crimes. So

23:57

I just gotta find which elements

24:00

fit that crime and not misapply

24:02

that because I I'm gonna forward this

24:04

case to the district attorney's office

24:06

they're gonna get my report and they're gonna do

24:08

the same thing that I just did. They're gonna

24:10

look for what crimes were charged and

24:12

are the elements there. And if I charge

24:15

a crime and I've only checked two of the five

24:17

boxes on the

24:17

elements, that charge is getting

24:20

dropped.

24:20

Right. I see. Can't prove it. You

24:22

don't have enough here. So

24:25

that's a learning process for detectives

24:27

and patrol officers as well as Okay.

24:31

Yeah. I need that one too. Got it. Alright.

24:33

Doesn't make it false arrest. It just

24:35

means that I charged the wrong crime. And

24:37

this is why we have district attorneys and lawyers

24:40

and grand jury processes and judges.

24:42

They can make those law determination I'm

24:45

just a cop. I know how to

24:47

read real good.

25:01

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So,

26:47

I wanna be non judgmental. I

26:49

wanna be familiar with elements

26:52

of the crime. I want to be familiar

26:54

with the suspect

26:56

and their movements because

26:58

if we're talking and I say where were you

27:01

last Thursday night, And I've

27:03

already dug into your background and you

27:05

say, was at home all night. And

27:07

I'm like, wow. I

27:09

got two friends that I talked to and they said that

27:11

you were at their house for a party. Oops.

27:15

Or I was asleep all night, but there was

27:17

party going on. I have multiple

27:19

people at that party saying that you were

27:21

one of the drunkest and stayed up the latest.

27:23

So I wanna be familiar with these things. So when

27:25

they drop them in an interview. I can confront

27:28

them on that or I just put it in my back pocket

27:30

and I'm like, I'll save that one for

27:32

later when I get confrontational. But

27:35

Usually, when someone would lawyer up

27:37

or invoke their right to remain silent or have

27:39

an attorney, whatever, you

27:41

can see that coming. It's usually

27:44

very early on, like, first

27:47

two minutes of an interview. Like,

27:49

after we get that give me your name, rank,

27:51

and horsepower, like name, date of birth, Social

27:53

Security number. What's a good address, phone number,

27:55

email? You move on.

27:58

From that, you know, the initial

28:00

stuff where I don't need to advise you of Miranda

28:02

to ask your

28:03

name. No, we did that really interesting

28:06

briefing room where you encountered the

28:08

man on a bicycle in middle of a night.

28:10

He said, I don't have to talk to you, and you said, you're

28:12

right, you don't. And then when you encountered him an

28:14

hour later, you're like, Now you actually do

28:16

have to talk to me because you

28:19

had reasonable suspicion.

28:21

And actually, that's what we called that episode

28:24

on the briefing room. Reasonable suspicion.

28:27

Yeah. So the order of

28:29

questions is all gonna be dependent

28:32

on how the first

28:34

few minutes of that interview goes? Do

28:36

I feel like I'm gonna get straightforward answers?

28:39

If I ask you your name, out on the street

28:41

or in an interview room and you start with

28:45

it's bridging. I need more time to think

28:47

of the bullshit answer I'm about to give you.

28:49

You've ever been arrested? That's

28:52

a yes. And

28:54

you're making assumptions when you hear

28:56

those things, but it's based on a

29:00

lived experience of every time I ask

29:02

this question and that's the first part of the answer,

29:04

it's always bullshit. And you learn

29:07

a lot about what to do in the interview room from

29:09

your time on the streets. When I'm out on

29:11

patrol, I have a whole different set of expectations

29:13

when I'm doing an interview as opposed

29:15

to a controlled environment where

29:18

I've got a suspect in

29:20

the detective section. We're in a

29:22

small room. I've got video. Everything

29:25

is accounted for. It's different on the streets.

29:27

And for new cops, it's a place to really

29:30

start to learn human behavior out

29:32

on the streets. Interactions with

29:34

people, be nosy, be curious, ask

29:36

a lot of questions. So within

29:39

a few months of being on the street was the first time

29:41

somebody gave me a bullshit name. Were doing the

29:43

runaround. They still can't find this person in

29:45

the system and your FTO is looking at you

29:47

like, have you figured it out yet?

29:49

Because I knew this after the first

29:52

Right. They didn't give you their real

29:54

name. You need that life experience, but

29:57

that happens quickly when you're on the streets.

29:59

It doesn't happen so quickly in the academy.

30:01

You know, you can't watch cops. I used to say

30:04

to people all the time. They'd be like, how long you've

30:06

been a cop? Well, I've been doing ride alongs

30:08

on cops since I was five years old. But

30:10

you're not a cop. I've seen some things

30:12

though. Like that show was

30:15

invaluable to me growing up because you

30:17

can see when people are about to run on

30:19

cops. And live PD. Cops

30:21

can see it. People who are body language

30:23

folks, where you just sit back and you're like,

30:25

oh, okay. He's played his DancePF. just looked

30:27

over his shoulder. Look at his hands.

30:30

Always clenching his fist like he's about to punch

30:33

or run or punch and then run.

30:36

You see these indicators on cops

30:38

and on live PD when you're watching it. Like,

30:40

oh, here he goes. So when you've

30:42

seen that, and then you experience it

30:44

as a police officer. I know when

30:47

I ask your age and you say,

30:49

what's your date of birth? I

30:51

know I'm about to get bullshit. And

30:54

it just might be a tech, but this is why we do

30:56

a little baseline information gathering

30:58

at the beginning. I wanna see their tempo. Their

31:00

rhythm to how they speak, how articulate,

31:02

are they? Are they prone to providing

31:05

open ended narratives? Are they yes and

31:07

no? These are all things I wanna gauge

31:09

is how deep is this conversation gonna

31:11

be? How is the exchange

31:13

gonna be? Are we gonna talk?

31:16

Or is this gonna be a Q and A?

31:18

I wanna have a discussion. I don't want

31:20

a q and a. It's very sterile.

31:23

It's not compelling. I wanna

31:25

see like the emotion. When I bring up

31:27

something to a suspect, I wanna see the

31:29

reaction. So when they start talking about

31:31

some horrible or regretful thing they did,

31:34

I wanna see their

31:35

emotions, body language, those

31:37

types of things. You know, Dave's talking

31:39

about body language, and I will say this,

31:42

you know, sitting in an interview room,

31:44

there are some things. So if you're watching first

31:47

forty eight and they show a lot of the

31:49

suspect interviews, or

31:51

just witnesses coming in. And

31:55

I watch those interviews and I see body language

31:57

and I see how people

32:00

place their chairs in a room or

32:02

their body.

32:03

The people being questioned? Yeah.

32:05

And so you know, typically, if

32:07

you're gonna have a conversation with somebody,

32:10

you're face to face. Right? Our bodies are

32:12

lined together. Sometimes

32:14

I would put the chair in the room a

32:16

little kind of cock eye just

32:19

to see if this person's actually gonna

32:21

arrange their chair where they actually square

32:24

up with me. That to me is an indication

32:26

of, I'm willing to talk

32:28

to you. But when people sit

32:31

down and they turn their bodies

32:33

away or they physically turn their chair

32:36

away from

32:36

you, I think that's a pretty good indicator

32:38

of how that interview is gonna go. The

32:42

interview that I had in cut and run

32:44

The small town dicks episode cut and run.

32:47

Yes. With one of our suspects,

32:50

he did that, and he was evasive

32:52

in all the questioning. Meaning

32:54

he turned his chair, not squared

32:57

up with you.

32:57

Correct. So I was facing him.

33:00

He was facing

33:01

With sort of one shoulder toward you.

33:03

Yeah. And looking at

33:05

me during the interview over his right

33:07

shoulder. Right? And that I

33:09

mean, I interviewed that guy for hours

33:13

over a couple days.

33:15

And he wasn't cooperative

33:17

with me. He was information gathering is

33:19

what he was.

33:20

From you. From me, he wanted to know how

33:22

much I knew. He also thought he was the

33:24

smartest person in the room, and he's also

33:26

a convicted felon prior to that. Correct, ma'am?

33:29

Correct. And we're talking about murder

33:31

here. Right? So, you

33:34

know, I caught him in a lot of lies. And every time

33:36

that I caught him in a lie, he would posture

33:38

with me. These were all indications

33:41

of back off, buddy. So

33:44

I learned a lot in that interview. It was a long

33:46

interview. Over the course of couple

33:48

days, and he

33:50

never really gave us much.

33:52

If I had him locked into a corner.

33:55

If I had him, you know, pushed into corner

33:57

on something, he would admit

33:59

to that, anything else he would deny.

34:01

Deny deny deny deny. Until

34:04

I presented him with, oh, here's a

34:06

here's a photo of you walking

34:09

out of a store, carrying a bunch of swords

34:11

that just happened to be the murder weapons. Right?

34:14

And, you know, he's like, oh,

34:16

yeah, that is me. So now he's gotta

34:18

explain that away. But it

34:21

was constant. I had to keep doing that.

34:23

Every time, if I went down

34:25

line of questioning, he would deny deny

34:28

deny and then I would have to present something

34:30

that would pull him out of that that he

34:32

had to actually answer to.

34:35

He also, you know, he

34:38

he would posture and he would he

34:40

would get loud and angry.

34:43

He got angry. He always pointed

34:45

at his arm because he would get goose bumps when he

34:47

got fired up. And so during

34:49

that interview, he would look at me

34:52

if I was going somewhere that he

34:54

didn't wanna

34:54

go. He would pointed his

34:56

forearm. What a strange reaction?

35:06

This brings me to another question. You

35:10

guys have said in casual conversations

35:12

with just the three of us that you would

35:14

rather have a list

35:16

of provable lies from your suspect

35:19

than a confession. Because a confession

35:22

could be thrown out in a suppression hearing,

35:25

but provable lies you

35:27

can present to a jury and destroy the

35:30

suspect's

35:30

credibility. Can you speak to that little bit?

35:32

Oh, I mean, I would say that I'd rather

35:34

have a confession.

35:35

Oh, you what? But done correctly,

35:39

where it's bulletproof that you memorized

35:41

correctly, that you weren't coercive

35:43

in any way which

35:46

are things that I've seen. I've

35:48

seen promises being made in in

35:50

interview

35:51

rooms.

35:51

You mean, like, I can get you a lighter sentence

35:53

if you tell me the truth. Yeah. That's

35:55

coercive. I can't make those

35:57

promises. That's the DA's job. One

36:00

thing that always bothers me. And I I went to

36:02

read the read school of interviewing.

36:05

And it's valuable for some

36:06

things. Can you explain what it

36:08

is or what it's based on ish?

36:10

It's like an FBI technique.

36:12

Right?

36:13

No. It's a private firm that's

36:15

got a bunch of former law enforcement people

36:17

on it.

36:17

Yeah. It's a nine step process of an interview.

36:20

To me, it's very formal. It's very

36:22

structured

36:23

like after this, you go to this.

36:25

Unless they do this, then you jump up to this.

36:27

It's rigid. So, you know,

36:29

I I see when I watch first forty

36:31

eight too, like the Tulsa guys.

36:34

For anyone who hasn't seen the show, these

36:36

guys are much more conversational. They're

36:39

far less rigid. It's more of a free

36:41

flowing conversation. And that's the kind

36:43

of technique that I usually employ in the interview

36:45

room. But I have seen other departments who

36:47

are much more focused on the read technique.

36:50

I know this because when Dan and I watch

36:52

those shows together, he goes, oh, read.

36:54

And now I know if you have two detectives

36:57

questioning a suspect, and they've pulled

36:59

their chairs right up to the suspect. And

37:01

then there's bodily contact where a say

37:03

a detective puts their hand on

37:06

the person's shoulder to say, hey, listening,

37:08

you could tell me the truth or whatever. Isn't

37:11

that a re technique? Get right up

37:13

in

37:13

there, girl?

37:14

It is. And there's a time for that.

37:16

There is a time for that. The utility

37:19

of read is limited in certain

37:21

circumstances. I mean, like you guys,

37:23

I recognize little things in the

37:25

read technique, especially when part

37:28

of the training for read is, leave the

37:30

room, leave the suspect in there for several

37:32

minutes. Act like you got

37:34

shit to do, and then come

37:36

back with a folder

37:39

full of papers even if they're empty.

37:42

You mean even if

37:42

the pieces in it are blank?

37:45

Completely. It's a prop and

37:47

you stand three to six

37:49

feet away from the suspect while they're

37:51

seated and you tell them, like,

37:53

it's like a scripted my investigation

37:56

shows that what you've just told me is incorrect

37:58

and you drop the the file

38:00

folder on the table, my

38:03

investigation shows x, y,

38:05

and z. It's a read 101.

38:08

When detectives who have taken read training,

38:11

see it, they're like, oh, there's another one.

38:13

What happens if they open that folder

38:15

and all the pages are blank?

38:16

You bet or not. Yeah.

38:19

That's incredibly risky. I

38:21

hated bluffing. I hated bluffing

38:24

suspects. I wouldn't bluff

38:26

until I got way desperate.

38:28

Like, okay, we're nearing the end.

38:31

Where this is a last chance effort.

38:33

I did not bluff. I hated lying to

38:35

suspects even though we're able to.

38:38

I love when people like, you can't lie to

38:39

them. Fuck. Yeah. I can.

38:41

They lie to you. They lie to me all

38:43

the time. I can't threaten and intimidate

38:45

course or otherwise promise things, but I

38:47

can lie to

38:48

you.

38:48

I believe in the UK you are actually not

38:50

allowed to lie to your suspect.

38:53

Thank god. We broke away.

38:56

And typically, like, here's a lie that we

38:58

might say in the in an interview. Oh,

39:01

boy. Zippers here are offering her opinion

39:03

as only zipper can do.

39:06

Please go on. Say there's two suspects.

39:09

Right? And you say, you know, I just talked

39:11

to your buddy in the other interview room and he's

39:13

talking. Maybe you haven't even talked to the guy

39:15

yet. To

39:15

the other suspect. To the other suspect, but you

39:17

tell this person that's like a lie

39:20

that you might tell. But you're also that's a bluff

39:22

too. And I

39:24

think bluffs are risky. I'd rather just

39:26

be upfront and honest with people. I'm not gonna

39:28

give you everything though. I'm not gonna show you

39:30

all my cards. I want

39:33

you to tell me what my cards

39:35

are. Well, and and part of that is

39:37

because of what we've seen

39:40

get suppressed, is that

39:42

this claim, you know, the police were feeding

39:44

the suspect info and

39:47

facts. And basically, it

39:50

was a mad lips of the confession

39:52

that the suspect only gave a word

39:54

here there, but the rest of the narrative was

39:56

written up by the detective. That's

39:59

not useful. And I've seen it in interviews

40:01

too where I'm like, oh, I can see where the defense would

40:03

probably say this is a leading interview. And

40:06

they're just putting words in my client's mouth.

40:08

That's why Dan wants to hear it from

40:10

the suspect. I wanna hear the facts from

40:12

you. That way, nobody can claim while you

40:14

just fed him a bunch of information.

40:17

You know, in the seventies and eighties,

40:19

they would have suspects that gave

40:22

written statements. And then later

40:24

on, there'd be this claim that Well,

40:26

I mean, that statement was written by

40:28

the police and the suspect just

40:30

signed it. That's a bad

40:32

look. Even if it's bullshit, it's

40:34

still a bad look, it better be in the suspect's

40:36

handwriting. Yep. Now that most

40:38

of our interviews are recorded by video.

40:41

If someone writes it

40:42

out, then you've got a video proof of

40:44

someone writing out a statement.

40:46

But it better be the suspect, better not

40:48

be the detective. Oh, no. I've

40:50

I've never written I've asked a

40:52

suspect or suspect said, can

40:54

I write a letter to the victim right now?

40:56

Sure. I'll go grab you a pen. How many

40:58

pieces of paper do you think you'll need? Absolute

41:01

gold. And so I

41:03

would let people do that. I would ask

41:05

them they we're comfortable doing

41:07

that, but you're gonna get their version

41:10

of what happened. I'm not going

41:12

to sit there and ask them questions

41:15

while they're writing that. I want them to just write

41:17

it out and give me their version. And

41:19

then you read it and sometimes

41:22

it's a page and a half long. Sometimes it's

41:24

like five sentences. But

41:27

it gives you a gauge on how open

41:29

this person is. If they're not gonna write everything

41:31

out, if they're gonna give me three or four sentences,

41:35

they're not really being

41:36

forthcoming.

41:37

But it's still a measure of culpability. Absolutely.

41:40

However, you get a district attorney

41:43

and a defense attorney that look at a five

41:45

sentence statement, it all says, I'm sorry,

41:47

I've always loved you. Take care

41:49

of the family. I wish none

41:51

of this had happened. It doesn't say anything.

41:54

I wish none of this had happened, meaning

41:56

me being in an interview room and having to

41:58

write letter about me being sorry

42:01

in a very general and ambiguous way.

42:03

That doesn't help anything. I

42:05

can understand when an attorney would look at that

42:07

and say, well, you could've just thrown that

42:10

in the trash. Because it's worth nothing.

42:12

I love when people are like, well, that's a confession. What

42:14

do you confess to? Didn't confess to anything.

42:17

You just said he's sorry. That he loves

42:19

them, and he wished this didn't happen. That

42:21

could mean any number of things. I used

42:23

to ask my guys, I envy specific if you

42:26

remember a certain day where there was interaction

42:28

with you and the child after something

42:30

happened? Reference it. It's probably

42:32

in their memory as probably the worst

42:34

time this ever happened. If you take

42:36

accountability for that, that's huge. So

42:39

I would encourage specificity. Some

42:41

guys gave it to me. Some guys would be like, I'm

42:43

not gonna write a letter because they already know what's

42:46

up. Like, I'm gonna take a photocopy of

42:48

that, I'm gonna put it in the file, and I'm gonna give

42:50

the photocopy to the family

42:52

and bea and say, for what it's worth.

42:54

This is what suspect had to say to

42:56

you and your child.

42:59

There's utility in that and

43:01

it is gold when it's

43:04

specific enough to address a

43:06

name, a place, a location,

43:08

a date, a certain type

43:11

of interaction with the victim

43:13

where you can be like, oh, they're referring to

43:15

this particular crime

43:18

on this date that happened at this house.

43:20

When the child was eight. That's

43:22

huge. So

43:24

written statements are

43:25

gold. You just want it to be

43:28

specific. Sure. Well, your fifth grade

43:30

English teacher wouldn't stand for this

43:32

in place of a a specifically

43:34

referenced

43:36

noun. As in an act or

43:38

a crime or something. Right. And I'll

43:40

say even police officers that I've

43:42

been around that maybe don't have

43:44

the exposure to a suppression hearing

43:46

or being in trial from suppression

43:48

hearings all the way through the verdict and sentencing.

43:51

If you don't have the exposure to

43:53

the utility of having a

43:56

letter or having been in

43:58

the room with somebody who's confessing

44:00

to horrible things You

44:02

might not know how to address that in your

44:04

initial investigation because you just don't

44:06

have any exposure to it. I learn these

44:08

things from Don. Sergeant

44:11

David, Jeff, my former

44:13

partner, twenty plus years

44:15

working sex crimes and child abuse. But

44:18

talk about working right next to an

44:20

encyclopedia. I took a lot

44:22

of things from him. He

44:24

had a certain way of doing things. Very

44:27

commanding in a room. And I've always

44:29

said, like, if I had a family member that

44:31

was sexually abused or victim

44:33

of a crime, in that

44:35

family of of crimes, I

44:38

want Jeff to be the

44:40

assigned detective on it because I've

44:42

seen him in an interview room and

44:45

the guy is fluid. He knows

44:47

when to step on the gas. He knows when

44:49

to push the brakes. He knows when to confront and

44:51

say, get out of the car. Figuratively speaking,

44:54

he knows all these things because you think in

44:56

twenty plus years, how much

44:59

exposure to sex

45:01

offenders and personality

45:04

types and types of crimes

45:06

has Jeff been involved in? Too

45:08

many to count. There are times where

45:10

I felt like I was getting nowhere in an interview.

45:13

I would come out and Jeff

45:15

would tell me, it's time to crawl on this guy's

45:18

face. And when we say crawl

45:20

on somebody's face, it doesn't mean,

45:22

like, the Hollywood version of let's turn

45:24

the lights down. There's just one light dangling

45:26

down over the

45:27

table, and I'm gonna screw my

45:29

gun into the side of his head.

45:31

Like a black ops kind of interrogation.

45:33

It's nothing like that. He means it's time

45:36

to confront this guy. And I remember the first

45:38

time I used it, it's a re technique, but

45:40

it's effective. Jeff told me

45:42

it was this suspect that I had on video

45:44

committing this crime, but he just would

45:46

not admit to it. All you see

45:48

is the shoes in the video. And I'm like,

45:51

same shoes you're wearing, dude. But

45:53

tell me about what happened in this house. That's

45:56

not me. So finally, I take a

45:58

break. Think suspect asked to use a

46:00

restroom. I was like, perfect. Because I

46:02

need to retool my strategy

46:04

here. Let the person use the restroom,

46:07

I go out, talk to Jeff, and I'm like,

46:09

you wanna take a shot at me? He goes, I'll take a

46:11

shot at him, but I want you to do this first. I

46:13

want you to walk in there. Start

46:16

down that same path again, but physically

46:18

put your hand up in front of yourself like a stop

46:20

sign. I want you to put your hand

46:23

up in between you and him

46:25

like you're telling him stop. I want

46:27

you to actually say, stop. We are

46:29

way past that. He goes, just try

46:31

it. Sky goes down there. We're about two

46:33

minutes into this other portion of the interview,

46:36

and the guy's not gonna go there. And I just said,

46:38

listen, man, stop stop right

46:40

there. We are way past that and he

46:42

just dropped his head. And he's like,

46:44

alright, I'll tell you. Wow.

46:47

Jeff told me later he's like, you interrupted.

46:50

His train of thought, everything

46:52

he's about to tell you said, I don't wanna

46:54

hear any of that shit. I want the truth

46:56

right now. Tell me what happened. And

46:59

he gave it up. Jeff knew

47:01

that because he'd probably been watching me for

47:03

thirty minutes

47:04

going. Just put your hand up and say, stop or

47:06

way past that. Right.

47:08

But you wouldn't think such a gesture, though

47:11

demonstrative would actually work.

47:13

I don't know. You just feel like if somebody's help

47:16

Anton not telling you something. They're not gonna

47:18

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48:07

I learned this from Dan when

48:09

he's talking about the guy who would get very

48:11

confrontational and his

48:13

body language I remember that case.

48:16

But Dan just told sergeant Davis,

48:18

like, he's too comfortable lying to me.

48:21

He's used to lying to me. I need someone to take

48:23

a run at him because he's gotten so comfortable

48:25

telling me bullshit that he's not gonna come off of

48:27

it because he knows, what's this guy

48:29

gonna do? You gotta introduce a new

48:31

face to the interview room. We

48:33

didn't have a policy where we would interview

48:35

with two detectives in the room. I would

48:38

do that on occasion if there's another detective

48:40

who had additional information

48:42

for me or there's security risk?

48:45

I've been in interview rooms where you're like,

48:47

fucking hope this guy doesn't come over the table

48:49

because he's gonna eat me up.

48:51

Oh, like you fear it

48:53

for your bodily safety.

48:55

Yeah. I

48:56

had a child pornography suspect whose

48:58

passed while he was in prison,

49:00

but Dan remembers his case. Cai was enormous.

49:03

Bodybuilder, I mean, shredded.

49:06

I don't know what type of guy this guy is. I

49:08

know what he's into because I just served

49:10

a search warrant on his house. That guy was like

49:12

672 sixty and

49:14

ripped. Less than ten percent body

49:16

fat. And he'd spent time in prison. He

49:19

was nothing but a gentleman throughout

49:22

our entire interaction even

49:24

in the interview, he'd loitered up.

49:26

And it was just because he told me he goes,

49:28

the only reason I'm loitering up is because I've been

49:30

through this before. He's like, I wanna talk

49:32

to you, but there's no explanation for it. And

49:35

I'm just not gonna I'm not gonna speak to you. It's

49:37

not personal. You won't have any hassle out of

49:39

me. Well, It's getting to

49:41

be close to time to go to the jail and

49:44

launch him for x, y, and

49:46

z. And he starts

49:48

having a hard issue. His

49:50

demeanor, everything has changed about this guy.

49:52

I think he's having a we call it a significant

49:54

emotional day. Significantly

49:57

emotional event in your life

50:00

where he's like, oh shit, I'm going back to prison and

50:02

this is bad stuff. Previously been

50:04

to prison for drugs, some pursuits,

50:07

some thefts, like shit

50:09

we deal with in the law enforcement world all the

50:11

time. Child sex abuse material

50:13

is a different look when you're a prisoner. And

50:16

he knew it. Well, he has this heart

50:18

related event to the point that I

50:20

call for an ambulance and fire

50:23

personnel show up at the police department, go

50:25

into the room, and they're like, he's having

50:27

an event. We gotta get him to the hospital right

50:29

now. I was like, is this guy he

50:32

planned me? Is he trying to

50:34

get to where I'm gonna be

50:37

in an ambulance or in a hospital

50:39

room with him? And now he's gonna try to get

50:41

away? Total gentleman

50:43

threw out. He apologized. He wouldn't

50:45

talk specifics. He said, I'll talk to you about anything.

50:48

And I said, It's all off the record, man, you already

50:50

lured it up. Unless you tell me I want to go back

50:52

on the record, none of this will go on my report.

50:54

I was at the hospital for six hours that

50:56

day. And

50:57

was he having a heart attack? Yeah.

50:59

Had heart attack. So he

51:01

gets lodged the following day in the

51:03

jail, gets lodged in the jail, goes away to

51:06

prison, pledge guilty. Total

51:09

gentlemen, I don't like what he did.

51:12

I wasn't judgmental of him. He

51:14

was remorseful. Never gave

51:16

us a problem, but it's one of those where initially, I

51:18

was like, don't wanna be in room alone with this

51:20

guy. I don't know what he's capable

51:21

of. I mean, he had whole cans.

51:23

Right. Snap you like a twake.

51:26

Right. So the strategy, some

51:28

departments have a policy where you're gonna have two

51:30

detectives in there. It's useful in some situations.

51:32

You'll have a detective. I typically want

51:34

one voice in that room. So when

51:37

I see another detective jump, like when another

51:39

officer shows up and you're the primary officer are

51:41

on the call, but the cover officer shows

51:43

up or a third party shows up, and

51:45

they start running people's names and

51:47

barking out orders and giving directions.

51:50

I'm always like, oh, hey, you're

51:52

jumping my call right It's my

51:54

call. Don't jump my call. Same

51:56

thing in an interview room. If you're the secondary,

51:59

unless I prompt you, I typically

52:01

don't wanna hear you ask any questions. I

52:03

want you to be able to point

52:05

out when we take a break like, hey, let's

52:08

teased this out a little bit. He said something

52:10

that I caught on. I was

52:12

never huffy about it, but was my

52:14

preference that I'd rather there'd

52:16

just be one voice in that room.

52:17

Yeah. That other officer a lot of

52:19

times too is just simply observing body

52:22

language and making observations.

52:24

An extra set of eyes. An extra set

52:26

of eyes because I'm not watching the

52:29

suspect the whole time. I'm looking down

52:31

at notes or whatever. This other detective

52:33

can be in the room seated in

52:35

a way where, you know, we talk

52:37

about runners DancePF.

52:40

know, I'm not saying all things about read technique

52:42

or bad. Read technique also

52:44

teaches you lot about body language

52:47

and interviews. That was my main

52:49

takeaway from the Reed School that I went

52:51

to was those

52:54

observations that I can make with people

52:56

where I can kinda tell that they're being evasive

52:58

or deceptive. Those were important

53:01

things to me. So that's what another set of eyes

53:03

in that interview room can

53:04

do. Is make those observations.

53:07

Yeah. And I don't fault agencies

53:09

that do it that way. It's just a personal preference

53:11

I'm sure there are detectives out there like I

53:14

want two of us in the room every time. Some

53:16

of my preference was formed around dealing

53:19

with detectives like Jeff and Don and

53:21

sergeant David, others

53:23

were being around district attorneys who were

53:25

like, I don't want a physically imposing

53:28

presence at counsel table during the trial.

53:30

So Lots of times, the lead, they call

53:32

it, the case agent, will be up at the table

53:35

with the district attorney during the trial.

53:38

I used to sit up there with certain district

53:40

attorneys. I had others who I was an

53:42

unknown commodity when I first started and they're like,

53:45

you're gonna be in front row. You're not gonna

53:47

be with me at the table because

53:49

there's usefulness in having me at the table.

53:51

So the attorney, when he hears something,

53:53

he's like, Is that a fact? He

53:56

would have to turn, roll his chair back,

53:58

talk to me in the front row, and other

54:00

situations where I'm at the table already, They

54:02

just write a little note on their yellow

54:04

legal pad. Pass it over. It's

54:07

nondestructive. You answer it yes

54:09

or no or let me check. It's

54:12

useful to have the case agent

54:14

up at the table, but attorneys, they

54:17

don't want it to look like the government needs

54:19

five people piling on this suspect.

54:21

It looks heavy handed. So you limit

54:23

the optics of that. Now I've been

54:25

in trials where there were three co

54:28

DancePF with the suspect and it's just

54:30

the DA. And me in the front row.

54:32

If you've had that situation, I do agree.

54:35

I think it's a better look to have fewer people

54:37

from the government up at the table. I've

54:39

never seen two detectives over the table.

54:42

Only a couple of cases where there was co counsel

54:44

on the prosecution side, there were several

54:46

cases where there were two defense attorneys

54:48

with suspect. And

54:50

their strategy is the same. One of them's

54:53

doing the questioning. The other one's

54:55

observing recording, checking

54:58

the case file, like, does this statement

55:00

on the stand differ than what they gave the police

55:02

officer eight months ago in their first interview?

55:05

Doing valuable work for their client.

55:07

It's the same thing on the police side. I don't

55:10

want two people at the

55:11

table. On the law enforcement side, I don't want

55:13

two people in the interview room. There are exceptions.

55:16

Right. I think these conversations are

55:18

so fascinating. Gentlemen,

55:21

thank you so much. Lots more to

55:23

talk about on that vein.

55:25

Absolutely. We could definitely revisit

55:28

this topic in the future. It's just

55:30

a great conversation with so much to learn

55:33

about

55:34

how you both do, what

55:36

you do. I can't get enough. I

55:39

loved it. Thank you. I

55:41

would just add this on. My number one

55:43

strategy going into an interview room

55:46

was be respectful. Show

55:48

them respect. Sometimes that's all these

55:50

people have as their own self

55:51

respect. So you don't wanna take that away from

55:54

them. Yeah. It's poker. You

55:56

can't show emotion in there. The

55:58

minute you act like that's the worst thing I've

56:00

ever heard somebody do to somebody else? Now

56:02

we're back into judgmental land, and

56:05

probably it's gonna be a short conversation

56:08

after

56:08

that. Yeah. Definitely. Nobody wants to

56:10

be ashamed even if they did the

56:12

worst thing.

56:13

Thank you, gentlemen, so much.

56:15

You're welcome. Thank you. It was a great

56:17

question.

56:18

Thank you. I'll just try to do my part.

56:21

And I'm sure you listeners have some

56:23

questions of your own. Feel free to drop us

56:25

a line on one of our social media accounts.

56:27

Next week on the briefing room, We've got

56:30

Paul Holmes. He joins us to talk

56:32

about forensics. It's going to

56:34

be gruesome and great.

56:36

Can't wait to hear it. And now for

56:38

a little briefing room feedback. So

56:42

the first two episodes of our new podcast,

56:45

The Briefing Room, We talked about

56:47

active shooter response in schools. And

56:50

as part of those two episodes, we

56:52

had a discussion with two teachers from

56:54

Texas. And it was

56:57

quite apparent there was distinction between

57:01

one school district and the other. When

57:03

it came to the caliber of

57:05

training and the opportunities

57:08

for training that these two school districts

57:10

offer to their employees and their

57:12

students. And we got a lot of feedback

57:15

from the first two episodes and

57:18

many questions had to do

57:20

with, how do we ensure that our

57:22

school district is getting up to

57:24

date quality, high

57:26

caliber training? To our

57:29

teachers and our students. And

57:32

my answer would be and I think

57:34

probably most school resource officers

57:36

would agree. Is that reach out

57:39

to your local police department or sheriff's

57:41

office and

57:43

ask them if they are conducting

57:46

any active shooter response, any

57:49

critical incident, traumatic event

57:51

type trainings, and get on the

57:53

police department's training calendar and

57:56

offer your school and say,

57:58

we wanna have a training at our school.

58:00

It'll probably be on a teacher's in service

58:02

day or on a weekend. And

58:05

will run all the teachers and

58:07

staff through this active shooter

58:10

training. It does two things. It gives the

58:12

police officers an ability to

58:14

really do some reconnaissance

58:17

of the school grounds. They become familiar

58:20

with the buildings they could potentially be entering.

58:22

It also inoculates the

58:25

folks who are being trained into

58:27

a little bit of a stress response. And

58:29

I know that Dan has done that

58:32

to varying degrees, but at some

58:34

point that training felt

58:36

very real to some of the folks who weren't

58:38

used to hearing gunfire. Even

58:40

though they were shooting blanks. It's

58:43

not just a drill. It's stressful.

58:45

I remember, Dan, when you

58:47

talked about participating in

58:50

going to a a training at a school

58:52

and you played the bad guy and you were so

58:54

good at it, you made the teacher cry. So

58:57

when Dave says, you know, yes,

58:59

it's a drill, but they're trying to make it as realistic

59:02

as

59:02

possible. And of course, you weren't trying to

59:04

make her cry. Not my proudest moment. But,

59:06

you know, I I wasn't even shooting blanks.

59:09

I had basically a nerf gun that

59:11

I was using, but I was I

59:14

was heartless. I played a heartless

59:16

person. And I think that's alarming

59:19

to people. That someone

59:21

could be so heartless that a bad guy

59:23

would not care at all about your misfortune

59:26

or the pain you're

59:26

in. It's a reality that we have

59:28

as police officers because we see it every

59:31

day. I love that Dan made it

59:33

real. That makes

59:35

the training worthwhile and not

59:37

just a waste of everyone's

59:38

time. I want you to be uncomfortable.

59:40

Because also DancePF

59:43

are the actual incident will be a hundred

59:45

times worse. Than what detective Dan

59:47

was able to bring on that

59:48

day. I'll tell you what, the first time you hear

59:51

a gunshot go off and you're not wearing your protection,

59:53

it rattles you. And so I

59:56

had a nerf gun that day. I can't imagine

59:58

what these people would go through if

1:00:00

it was a real incident and how

1:00:03

loud A gun going off

1:00:05

is. It's not like television. It

1:00:07

is loud. But to bring that back

1:00:09

to the training

1:00:10

piece, folks can

1:00:12

reach out, their school district can reach

1:00:14

out to the fire department

1:00:17

and the police department and

1:00:19

they can team up together to

1:00:21

create an active shooter

1:00:24

or a critical incident trauma response.

1:00:27

Training that can combine

1:00:29

medics and fire personnel with

1:00:32

police and

1:00:33

schools, staff, and students.

1:00:36

You can do that. Reach out

1:00:38

to your police department and ask if

1:00:40

they can help you coordinate an active

1:00:42

shooter training. That's a public

1:00:44

service. The police department should.

1:00:46

They should jump at it. Yep. And

1:00:48

couple that with a stop the bleed training.

1:00:51

Some triage. Not just triage,

1:00:53

but, like, let's really work on the first

1:00:56

aid aspect of the aftermath.

1:00:59

Because if if we're ignoring that part,

1:01:01

then we're failing too. Dave and I

1:01:03

talked about it, we were buddies with some firefighters

1:01:06

in our local town, and we had a boat, so

1:01:08

we wanted to make a first aid kit. Not

1:01:10

that Dave and I are going to get hurt

1:01:12

out of the lake. But what if somebody else

1:01:14

gets hurt out the lake? It's dangerous.

1:01:17

Somebody gets hit by a prop on a

1:01:19

boat.

1:01:20

A propeller. Yeah. In

1:01:22

the boating world's cup prop. But

1:01:25

there's gonna be a lot of blood. And Dave

1:01:27

and I wanted to be prepared to

1:01:30

respond to something like that if it

1:01:32

happened. If I was a teacher, I

1:01:34

think in our town, I think teachers could

1:01:36

probably go down to the local fire

1:01:39

apartment and say, hey, can

1:01:41

I just get some basic supplies if

1:01:44

the worst thing ever happened and there was

1:01:46

a shooter at my

1:01:47

school?

1:01:47

For first aid. For First Aid. Would

1:01:50

you guys give me some of those things?

1:01:52

I would bet that the fire department would

1:01:55

say, yeah, what do you need? And they'd say,

1:01:57

I don't know. Can you help me? Yeah. And then

1:01:59

the fire department would say, okay, this is

1:02:01

what you need.

1:02:01

Yeah. But honestly, the schools

1:02:04

should be paying for all this stuff. There's

1:02:06

no excuse. There truly

1:02:08

is no

1:02:08

excuse. The stuff that teachers and

1:02:11

staff are putting on their own personal credit

1:02:13

cards is embarrassing.

1:02:15

I agree. They shouldn't have to do that,

1:02:17

but I agree with you went down

1:02:19

to a local firehouse, they'll hook you

1:02:22

up. They're happy to. If

1:02:24

you tell them what it's for, I need stuff

1:02:26

to stop bleeding. They're gonna

1:02:27

say, you need turnikits, and you need

1:02:30

big gauze, pressure bandages, stuff

1:02:32

like that, stuff that soaks up blood

1:02:35

and puts pressure on wounds. Yeah.

1:02:37

I would say at a minimum, you should have

1:02:39

some turnkey kits in your classroom

1:02:42

available. And they're not that expensive. You can

1:02:44

get them on Amazon if your school district

1:02:46

or your school won't pay for those things. Go

1:02:49

on Amazon. Look at Tourniquets.

1:02:52

And learn how to apply it

1:02:54

correctly. It's invaluable. I've

1:02:56

watched a tourniquet save a life.

1:03:01

Thanks to everyone who listened for all

1:03:03

the thoughtful comments we've received. We

1:03:05

read every one of them, so keep them

1:03:07

coming.

1:03:11

The briefing room is produced by Gary

1:03:13

Scott and me, Yardley Smith,

1:03:15

and co produced by detectives Dan

1:03:18

and Dave. This episode was

1:03:20

edited by soaring vision, Gary

1:03:23

Scott, and me. Our associate

1:03:25

producers are Aaron Gaynor and

1:03:27

the real Nick Spitty, our social

1:03:29

media is run by the one and

1:03:31

only Monica Scott. Our researcher

1:03:33

is Delaney Britt Brewer. Our

1:03:36

music is composed by a Logan

1:03:38

Heftel, and our books are cooked

1:03:40

and cats wrangled by Bing Cornwell.

1:03:42

If you like what you hear and wanna stay

1:03:44

up to date with the podcast, please

1:03:47

visit us on our website at

1:03:49

small town dicks dot com

1:03:52

slash the briefing room. Thank

1:03:54

you to speech docs for providing transcripts,

1:03:57

and thank you to you the best fans

1:03:59

in the pod universe for listening.

1:04:01

Honestly, nobody's better than you.