0:03

Hi,

0:03

Paul.

0:04

Hi, Yeardley. How are you doing? Well, I'm doing

0:06

great. How are you? I've

0:06

so good. It's so great to have

0:08

you on small town dicks.

0:09

Oh, I am so happy to be here.

0:11

So we wanna know how

0:14

did we persuade you? to join us

0:16

here on small town

0:17

Oh, it was it was a lot of arm twisting.

0:19

Not the truth. Well,

0:22

what has always impressed me about small town

0:24

dick is the professionalism. First,

0:27

you have your authenticity. You know,

0:29

Dan and Dave, myself, we come out

0:31

of real crime. We've had real experiences.

0:34

and so the audience, the listeners, are

0:36

getting from small Dicks, what

0:39

actually happens out there, not something

0:41

that's been glamorized. but also

0:43

you guys don't exploit the cases.

0:46

You're empathetic to the victims and this

0:48

is what I'm all about and I know

0:50

that people who know me from other

0:52

projects, they will truly see

0:54

that when they start listening to small

0:57

town dicks. That's an incredible

0:58

endorsement. Dan and Gabe,

1:00

telefind people about some Patreon,

1:03

where Paul Hull's also joins us

1:05

on quite a few nuggetty nuggets.

1:07

For just five bucks a month, you'll have

1:09

access to an assortment bonus episodes,

1:12

outtakes, listener questions, special

1:14

series.

1:14

Small town fam. You get everything Dave

1:17

said Ed, and your hard earned money goes

1:19

to support our incredible staff

1:21

behind the scenes to give you this podcast

1:23

that we all love. So please join

1:25

us at patreon dot com slashed

1:28

small town dips.

1:29

How much was that again?

1:30

It's only five dollars a month, Paul.

1:32

Just five dollars and you get all of that

1:35

content? Yes. That is a deal.

1:37

It's such a deal. Patreon dot

1:39

com slash small town dicks.

1:47

A John Doe is

1:49

found in a shallow

1:51

creek bed. This male

1:53

body is laying

1:56

on his back, fully

1:58

closed, but There is

2:00

something suspicious. He

2:02

has plastic bags that have been placed

2:04

over his head, and an electrical

2:06

cord tied around his neck. Hi

2:09

there. I'm Yardley. I'm Dan.

2:12

I'm Dave, and I'm Paul. And

2:14

this is smart town gang. Dave

2:16

and I are identical twins and retired

2:18

detectives from small town USA. And

2:20

I'm a veteran cold case investigator who

2:22

helped catch the gold and stay killer using a revolutionary

2:25

DNA tool. Between the three of us,

2:27

we've investigated thousands of crimes from

2:29

petty theft, to sexual assault, child

2:32

abuse, to murder. Each case

2:34

we cover is told by the detective who investigated

2:36

it, offering a rare account

2:38

of how they solve the crime. names,

2:40

places, and certain details have been changed to

2:42

protect the privacy of victims and their families.

2:45

And although we're aware that some of our listeners

2:47

may be familiar with these cases. We ask

2:49

you to please join us in continuing to protect

2:51

the true identities of those involved out of

2:53

respect for what they've been

2:54

through. Thank you.

3:05

Today on small town dicks,

3:07

we have the usual suspects. We

3:10

have detective Dave. I knew

3:12

you were coming to me first. I was prepared. Happy

3:15

to be here.

3:16

Happy to have you. And we have detective

3:18

Dan. Hello, team. Hello, you?

3:21

And in our fourth hosting

3:23

chair, we have the one and only

3:25

polls.

3:26

Hey, everybody.

3:27

Hey, hey, So small

3:30

town fam. It's a very good day

3:32

because today we have

3:34

a case from mister

3:35

Hole's. So

3:37

before we push to record, we were

3:39

talking with you, Paul, about

3:41

all the ways forensic science has evolved

3:44

and gain significance during

3:46

your career. And I

3:48

think most notably, at least in

3:50

my book, your work revolutionizing how

3:52

we use DNA, is just one

3:55

huge example of that. There's also

3:57

the increasingly sophisticated ways law

3:59

enforcement analyzes

3:59

trace evidence, manages

4:02

crime scenes, and

4:04

it

4:04

got you thinking about

4:07

a case that you worked on in the late nineteen

4:09

nineties that could have been considered really

4:12

an open and shut case if all

4:14

you did was take the suspect's confession

4:16

at face value and didn't dig any

4:18

deeper. but that's not who you are.

4:20

Is it Paul?

4:21

Not at all. I

4:23

thought you were actually the kid who asked for

4:25

more science homework when the teacher didn't give

4:27

you any. that true?

4:28

Well, no. That's not quite true.

4:31

Fair enough.

4:31

And thank God,

4:33

in this case, that you are the way you

4:35

are because without your thorough examination

4:37

of the evidence at the crime scene,

4:40

this case could have been derailed

4:42

by a few human mistakes and

4:44

some really broad assumptions about

4:46

the victim and his lifestyle. So,

4:49

Paul, take it away. This

4:51

is a case that I responded

4:54

out to, but it's kind of got an interesting

4:56

beginning to it. This

4:59

is taking place back towards

5:01

the end of nineteen ninety seven. Down

5:03

in San Luis Obispo, which is a

5:05

good few hundred miles south my

5:07

jurisdiction out there on the coast.

5:09

A John Doe is found

5:12

in a shallow creek bed. pretty

5:14

much the creek bed is dry. This

5:17

male body is laying

5:20

on his back. fully closed,

5:22

but there is something suspicious

5:25

about the nature of what's

5:28

going on with him. He has plastic

5:31

bags that have been placed over his

5:33

head, and an electrical cord

5:35

tied around his neck. So,

5:38

San Luis Obispo ends

5:40

up investigating this case.

5:42

And this John Doe has been out there

5:44

for a few days laying in this creek

5:46

bed. and is moderately

5:49

decomposed. I'm

5:51

sharing some photos of

5:53

John Doe's body after it was

5:55

removed from the creek bed And in the

5:57

photos, you can see that there's some

5:59

very slight mummification drying

6:03

out of the exposed skin

6:05

areas and some bloating to the abdomen.

6:07

And the reason I'm bringing this up

6:09

because this kind of shows the state of

6:11

decomposition and it's going

6:13

to be important later on in the

6:15

case. But in my assessment,

6:18

this is not a very decomposed body.

6:20

But this is a John Doe.

6:22

They have no clue who

6:25

this man is.

6:27

Six weeks later,

6:29

all the way up in Oakland, California,

6:31

a Russian immigrant, Italy,

6:34

was reported missing by

6:36

his wife. And he was last seen Adding

6:39

Nightclub in San Francisco.

6:42

Now even though this is his wife

6:44

reporting him missing, Vitaly

6:47

is homosexual and

6:49

would go into the city

6:52

to the nightclubs in order to be able

6:54

to find male dates that

6:56

he would bring back to his residence, which

6:58

was a boat down in Oyster

7:00

Point, South San Francisco. So

7:03

it's kind of an interesting dynamic. The

7:05

wife was just a wife of convenience

7:08

in order for Italy to be

7:10

able to continue to stay in the

7:12

country. And one of the interesting

7:14

aspects about Italy. He he was

7:16

in the black market, Russian

7:18

black market for selling lamps

7:21

and stuff, lighting.

7:21

Who knew?

7:23

Yeah. Who knew? He was making pretty

7:25

good money doing that. Now,

7:28

once Italy is reported missing by

7:30

his wife, Things started to work

7:32

in the detective's favor when they were

7:34

able to identify him

7:36

through fingerprints. Even though he was

7:38

moderately decompose, His

7:40

fingerprints were still intact enough

7:42

for them to be able to compare to a

7:44

direct comparison to this missing

7:46

person out of Oakland and identify their

7:49

John Doe as Italy. So

7:51

now the investigation can

7:53

get going. And of course, one

7:55

of the first things they do is to

7:57

see did they have any contact with

7:59

Italy

7:59

down there in San Luis Obispo. Turns

8:03

out, well, sort of, they had.

8:05

They had a patrol unit, pull

8:08

over a car, it was

8:10

a Mercedes, and

8:12

the Mercedes was registered to

8:14

Italy, but Italy

8:16

wasn't driving it. There

8:18

was three local kind of teenage

8:21

punks down in San Luis Obispo that

8:23

were driving this dead man's car.

8:25

And of course, these individuals

8:27

get interviewed. And

8:29

they say, well, we got this car

8:31

from Joshua and Marty. They

8:33

just kinda gave it to us.

8:35

but the car belongs to Vitale,

8:38

so who the hell is Joshua?

8:40

That's the same question that the

8:42

investigators had. how come Joshua and

8:44

Marty are giving their friends

8:46

down in San Luis Obispo, a

8:48

dead man's car who's reported

8:50

missing out of Oakland. So

8:52

they are able to track down

8:55

Joshua and Marty. Joshua

8:57

and Marty, admit, believe

9:00

it or not, to killing

9:02

Yeardley. Well, that's

9:04

a short episode. Thanks, Paul. That

9:06

was great.

9:07

There you go. Done. No.

9:10

sounds like it would be a slam

9:12

dunk, but here's the

9:14

story.

9:15

Joshua and Marty, they're being interviewed

9:17

Yeardley, but they tell

9:20

a fairly similar story.

9:23

They're up in Norinda, California,

9:25

which is in contra costicality. My

9:27

old jurisdiction Dicks know,

9:29

east bay in the San Francisco

9:31

Bay area. And

9:34

there was a family that lived

9:36

in a house, in a window.

9:38

had a young boy, teenage boy,

9:40

and they decide they're gonna go on a

9:43

family vacation. Well,

9:45

unbeknownst to the parents of that family, that

9:47

teenage boy whose friends

9:49

with Marty says,

9:51

hey, my parents are going to be

9:53

out of town. The house is going to

9:55

be empty. Maybe you

9:57

can use it for whatever you

9:59

want to do with

9:59

it. So once the family

10:02

leaves, Marty breaks into the house and then

10:04

invites his friend Joshua

10:06

over. and they start doing a

10:08

rash of burglaries in this

10:10

upper scale neighborhood in

10:12

Arinda, California. This was

10:14

known as the pillowcase burglaries. because

10:16

they were using the resident's pillowcases to put

10:18

all their loot in. So

10:20

Marty and Joshua were committing all

10:22

those pillowcase burglar in

10:24

this upper scale neighborhood. So

10:27

now, this is

10:29

six weeks after Fidelity

10:31

was found down in San Luis Obispo.

10:35

We have a residence that

10:38

Joshua Mardy claimed

10:40

to have been in and claimed

10:42

to have killed

10:45

Italy. But of course,

10:47

Their statements need to be weighed against

10:49

the evidence. What

10:51

actually happened.

10:53

So to help the listeners get an idea

10:55

if they're unfamiliar with the geography of Callo

10:57

fornoon. Oakland, where Italy

10:59

was reported missing out

11:01

of is across the bay from

11:03

San Francisco. Now, San Luis

11:05

Obispo is about a four to

11:07

five hour drive south

11:09

of Oakland, and it's literally

11:12

on the coast. and then

11:14

the town arena where

11:16

Joshua Marty are saying this homicide

11:18

occurred, that's a

11:20

town that's in my jurisdiction

11:22

on the other side of the

11:24

Oakland Hills from Oakland.

11:26

And there's actually a tunnel called

11:28

the Kaldakot tunnel. that

11:30

connects Arinda with the

11:32

Oakland area.

11:33

Okay. That helps, actually.

11:36

So Joshua and Marty They're doing all

11:38

these burglaries, and they soon get

11:40

bored after a few days of committing all these

11:42

burglaries. Joshua

11:44

says, hey, I know this Russian

11:46

guy He's good for drugs

11:48

and money. We should party

11:50

together. So they say they

11:52

invite Vitilie over to this house

11:54

in Korinda. and they

11:55

start partying. At one

11:57

point, Joshua claims to

12:00

have passed out on the

12:02

sofa in the family room.

12:05

only

12:05

to be woken up by literally

12:07

on top of him trying to get into his

12:09

pants. Josh

12:11

was going, uh-uh, that's not

12:13

my scene,

12:15

and grabbed an empty apple

12:17

cider bottle and hits Vitilie on

12:19

the side of the head. while

12:21

Billy's on top of him on the

12:23

sofa, but then claims to have passed

12:25

out after that. Only

12:27

to be awoken a second time,

12:30

with Devils trying to get into his

12:32

pants. This

12:33

time, Joshua's no.

12:35

This ain't happening grabs that

12:37

same cider bottle and

12:39

really hits Fiddle Leaf on the side of the head. And

12:41

this time, Fiddle Leaf collapses down

12:43

onto the floor and is not breathing.

12:46

Of

12:46

course, as a bystander who

12:50

wasn't present when any of this happened,

12:52

but you can't help but wonder

12:54

how come Joshua went from zero to

12:56

sixty so fast. There are so many other

12:58

alternatives like toss,

13:01

Italy, few and

13:03

look him in the eye and say, hey, we're

13:05

not doing this. You know? Yeah.

13:07

What

13:08

he's claiming is that Italy

13:10

is sexually assaulting him. And

13:12

so you've put it in that lens.

13:14

This

13:14

guy feels like he's being sexually

13:17

assaulted. He has a violent

13:19

reaction to it to defend himself against being

13:21

sexually assaulted. You leave

13:23

the gender out of it. You just say,

13:25

this human being sexually assaulted.

13:27

What's the reaction? And he's like,

13:29

I'm gonna defend myself. Yes. This

13:32

is a self defense. So

13:35

now, Contra Costa County

13:37

authorities ContraCast County Sheriff's

13:39

Office, Morinda PD, which is a

13:41

contract city with the Sheriff's Office, ends

13:43

up being notified hey, we have

13:45

a homicide and the homicide

13:48

actually occurred in your jurisdiction

13:50

six weeks ago.

13:51

So, search warrant is

13:54

obtained,

13:55

knock on the door. You know,

13:57

family had come back from vacation, but

13:59

living

13:59

this house for the last month.

14:02

and how law enforcement is saying you guys

14:04

have to get out. Somebody was killed inside

14:06

your house. Could

14:07

you imagine being that family

14:10

Oh my god. No. No.

14:12

Right? I talk about jaw dropping.

14:15

So now my role

14:18

is to go inside this

14:20

residence and prove that a

14:22

homicide had occurred there and that the

14:24

homicide had occurred the way

14:26

the suspect said it occurred.

14:34

Hi,

14:40

Paul. Hi, Yardley. It's so great to

14:42

see you. That's great to see you.

14:44

Hi, super excited. I wanna tell you about this podcast I've been

14:46

listening to. I know you don't listen to

14:48

podcasts. I

14:49

don't. I know. But you

14:50

should really listen to this one. Which one

14:52

is it? It's called buried bones. Oh,

14:54

Yes.

14:54

It's hosted by this fantastic

14:57

woman who does the most

14:59

granular research on

15:01

these historic cases. Her name

15:03

is Kate Wickler Dawson, and

15:05

there's some guy on it with her name, Paul

15:07

Holmes, who sounds a lot like you.

15:08

Well, guess what What? That is

15:11

me. No. My head's

15:13

exploding.

15:13

Small town fam. If you're not

15:16

listening to Berry Buns, Good God you

15:18

should

15:18

be. Please do. Apart

15:19

from the incredible research

15:21

of since I was saying that Kate doesn't then

15:24

you bring your modern

15:26

forensic brain to

15:28

helping either solve or

15:30

reevaluate these old cases,

15:32

which is fascinating. I

15:34

love the pre show

15:36

conversation. So before you guys get into the

15:38

case, Kate always kicks it off with a

15:40

question about how are you or

15:42

about your fish tank or

15:44

about the cava, it's

15:46

great. I feel like I'm getting to know you

15:48

in ways that I haven't gotten to know

15:50

you

15:50

yet. That's exactly what we're trying to do. Kate and I

15:52

are trying to get to know each other

15:54

as we are then

15:56

launching into telling the story of the

15:58

cases. It's a fantastic

15:59

formula you have great chemistry

16:02

together.

16:02

Well, I appreciate the comment.

16:04

Small down fan. Check out

16:07

buried bones. You will not

16:09

be

16:09

sorry.

16:17

So

16:19

I go into the house and

16:21

there's this dark

16:23

leather burgundy sofa that

16:26

is present in the family room

16:28

supposedly where Joshua had passed

16:29

out. And this

16:32

Persian style rug underneath there

16:34

and then of course, the end table, and

16:36

I am now looking for evidence

16:39

of violence, evidence of homicide. And

16:41

I do extensive visual examinations

16:44

throughout this house.

16:45

and all I find

16:49

is low down on some

16:51

of the decorative rivets on the

16:53

front of the sofa. there's these

16:55

dark dots. I

16:57

take a small sample and

16:59

apply this chemical reagent. I

17:01

was using Luca Malachi Green. This is a

17:03

presumptive test for blood. It's a two

17:05

stage reaction. And if

17:07

it turns green, it tells me

17:10

It's possibly blood. There's some other substances that can react,

17:12

but it's a limited number of substances.

17:16

So those little dots

17:19

turned out to be blood. So

17:21

I have what appears to be limited

17:23

blood spatter on the front of the

17:25

sofa low down. And

17:26

Paul, that chemical

17:29

agent does

17:29

not destroy the presence of the

17:31

human DNA inside the blood. Well,

17:35

yes, with what I tested does,

17:37

that's why I have to be very

17:39

limited in my testing, so

17:41

I leave DNA containing

17:44

material behind to be collected

17:46

and tested for DNA purposes. Got it.

17:48

As I'm

17:49

visually examining this

17:51

house, The only other

17:53

visible blood that I'm finding

17:55

is on the door, which is a

17:57

slight smear, and that door

18:00

is leading from the front

18:02

entry way into the family room where the

18:04

sofa was at. Slow

18:06

down on that door jabs was

18:09

another red meter that also gave me a

18:11

positive reaction. And

18:13

then on the oak hardwood floor

18:15

in the front entry way,

18:17

was like what I would call like a feathered stain,

18:20

but that

18:21

was the extent of the visible

18:24

blood in this house. So

18:26

it's like, okay, I've got a

18:29

story in which the

18:31

suspects are claiming that

18:33

Italy had been hit twice in

18:35

the head. If you have head

18:37

wounds in particular

18:39

with lacerations to the scalp, you could

18:41

bleed very heavily. How

18:43

come I'm only seeing such limited

18:46

blood? So

18:48

I end up spraying Luminal

18:51

throughout this house. What

18:53

is

18:53

the difference there? Okay.

18:55

So, Luca Malachi Green

18:57

is colorometric. It changes

19:00

colors. with the presence of

19:02

blood versus luminol

19:05

is a luminescent chemical.

19:08

It fluorescence by itself

19:10

in the presence of blood.

19:12

And luminol, you know, this is not like

19:14

what you would see in CSI.

19:17

I was mixing the luminol reagent

19:19

with sodium hydroxide, putting it

19:21

into a sprayer, and I'm wearing a

19:23

full face respirator mask.

19:26

all the chemical resistant clothing,

19:28

the Tyvex suit, you know, this moon

19:30

suit, to protect myself because

19:33

luminols considered potentially carcinogenic

19:36

sodium hydroxide is lie.

19:38

You don't want to be breathing that,

19:40

and it's funny to watch the

19:42

TV shows when they show people

19:45

You know? Like it's

19:45

Windex.

19:46

Exactly. They're they're spraying it around. The

19:49

house. They're goggling with it and everything else.

19:51

It's like, no. That is

19:53

not How this works?

19:56

Lumenal

19:56

gives such a faint

19:59

glow that we have

19:59

to wait until the middle of the

20:02

night in order to use it We'd

20:04

have to put garbage

20:06

bags or aluminum foil on

20:08

all the windows to prevent the street lights

20:10

or the moonlight from shining into the

20:12

house. And at this time,

20:15

in nineteen ninety seven, we were

20:17

using film based photography.

20:19

So we would have to do fifteen,

20:21

twenty, twenty five second exposures for

20:24

this film that we we had

20:26

in the camera to actually get enough

20:28

of the luminol light

20:31

to show the photo. So

20:34

I do the luminol.

20:35

And what it ultimately shows

20:39

On the sofa, the luminol showed

20:41

that there had been a

20:43

pool of blood near

20:45

that end of the

20:46

sofa, on the seat

20:49

cushion, and

20:50

then down

20:51

on the floor

20:54

those little dots of visible blood

20:56

that we could see on the leg,

20:58

there is a huge

21:01

radiating spatter pattern on

21:03

the front of the sofa low

21:06

down. This type of pattern is

21:08

created by a blow to a

21:10

bloody source. Then

21:12

there was

21:13

smears, large smears of

21:16

blood that showed a body

21:18

being drug across the

21:21

rug. and then drips as

21:23

that body was likely picked

21:25

up and carried outside out

21:27

to

21:27

the driveway area. then

21:30

a few shoe prints. So

21:32

here I've got some

21:35

tremendous information. Now

21:37

remember This was film based photography and

21:39

I had a partner with me who was

21:41

the

21:41

expert on doing luminol photography

21:44

in the middle of the night with

21:46

the old style film.

21:48

We took all sorts of photos of

21:51

this. None of those photos turned

21:53

out.

21:54

Why? Was the film corrupted

21:57

or it wasn't enough light? Or

21:59

The exposure

21:59

wasn't long enough.

22:01

Nowadays, you'd know with digital, I've got it,

22:03

or I don't got it right there. we

22:06

didn't know we didn't get this

22:08

until the film was processed.

22:10

And so that's like forty eight

22:12

hours later and you can't go back and

22:15

replicate this. Now, think about

22:17

this. You

22:18

have suspect

22:20

Joshua claiming to be passed out

22:22

on the sofa. laying on the

22:25

sofa with vitally on top of

22:27

him, hits vitally in the

22:29

head with the cider bottle. Now that

22:31

first blow is not gonna produce blood

22:33

spatter. because you need a

22:35

bleeding source. You need a

22:37

pooled source of blood to produce

22:40

spatter. You can have a blow kill that

22:42

doesn't produce blood spatter. but you could

22:44

also have a blow that would knock somebody out or cause

22:46

some disorientation. But

22:49

the statement

22:50

is is that

22:52

after Joshua wakes a

22:55

second time laying in the same

22:57

spot, he hits Biddly a second

22:59

time. Now you potentially have

23:01

blood spatter. Bitalies on top of him on the

23:03

sofa per his statement. Yet,

23:06

the blood spatter is down

23:08

on the floor. Does this

23:10

add up? I'm

23:12

picturing when you forcefully

23:15

stomp into a puddle, you have this

23:18

broadcast of spatter.

23:20

That is

23:20

exactly it. You need to have that puddle

23:23

to stop and to produce blood

23:25

spatter. Crimes in reconstruction based

23:27

on blood patterns understanding types

23:30

of patterns, but also how

23:32

they are formed. So I

23:34

could take a baseball bat and

23:36

hit somebody in the head. as

23:39

hard as I could. We'll certainly could

23:41

kill them with that hit. But is

23:42

it gonna produce blood spatter that

23:44

first blow? No.

23:46

because there is no pooled

23:49

blood source. But if I hit them a

23:51

second time, you

23:52

get the poof. Right? So

23:54

now I've got that poof,

23:57

low down on the floor. That means

23:59

there's a pooled

23:59

source of blood. Now,

24:03

I also had

24:05

a pooled source of blood up

24:07

on the sea cushion on the sofa.

24:10

Joshua

24:10

claimed to have been laying.

24:12

Was that

24:13

Joshua's blood? So

24:16

now

24:16

this becomes a little bit more sinister.

24:20

AND I TOLD THE

24:22

INVESTIGATORS WHO ARE INTERVIEWING THEM,

24:24

SAID, DOESN'T LOOK

24:27

LIKE Joshua WAS LANG ON

24:29

THIS SOFA? It looks like our

24:31

victim was laying on the

24:33

sofa. And then he

24:34

received a initial blow to his

24:36

head that's not gonna produce blood spatter.

24:39

but he laid there for a long enough period of

24:41

time to form a blood

24:44

pool. And then at some point,

24:46

He's down on the floor in front of the

24:49

sofa where you have that second

24:51

blow and now you get that

24:53

poof, that stomp in

24:55

the puddle. and it's like

24:57

spraying on the front of the sofa as

24:59

well as on the carpet. So

25:01

the

25:01

investigators go back to

25:04

Joshua and say, hey, We

25:06

know you're lying. And Josh was

25:08

like, okay, you're right.

25:10

I

25:10

am.

25:11

So now he changes his statements as

25:14

we were parting hard doing

25:16

the drugs, drinking, and then

25:18

Vitale ends up going

25:20

crazy. And Josh was going, I just

25:22

got scared of this guy, so I run out

25:24

of the house. but then I remember my

25:27

bud. Marty is back inside

25:29

with this crazy man. So I run

25:31

back inside the house and I'm

25:33

tackled from behind And

25:35

while standing up, I'm

25:37

trying to hit Fiddle Leaf off my

25:39

back with the cider bottle.

25:41

Does that match the evidence I

25:44

just described? No. So now Joshua

25:46

has lied twice. So

25:48

for the

25:48

listener, the sofa is

25:51

leather. a brown leather sofa and

25:53

it has, like, buttons.

25:55

It's tufted. It's tufted. So

25:57

blood

25:57

could easily pull where the button was

25:59

depressed, the

25:59

leather fabric. And

26:02

Josh and Marty obviously did some clean up on the

26:04

sofa and the rug. But

26:07

how

26:07

successful were they in getting

26:09

rid of every trace of Italy's

26:11

blood because that's really hard

26:13

to do, I think.

26:15

Good question. They

26:16

did extensive cleanup.

26:19

Part of their statement was after Italy

26:21

was killed. They went

26:23

through the house. They cleaned up everything

26:25

they possibly could. so

26:29

they couldn't see anything

26:31

when they were done. And then they

26:33

took Italy out and placed his

26:36

body because he's

26:36

bleeding from the head, that's

26:39

when

26:39

they decided, well, we need to put his

26:42

head in those plastic bags

26:44

and tie an electrical cord around it

26:46

to prevent further bleeding from getting

26:49

all over the place. So

26:51

they put Fiddle Lee in the trunk

26:53

of his own Mercedes. And

26:56

then they drive down south, get rid

26:58

of Italy's body in the creek,

27:00

and then give Fidelity's car to

27:02

some friends that they knew down in San

27:04

Luis Obispo. So that kind of

27:07

completes the circle, but they did

27:09

extensive cleanup. So when the family comes

27:11

back from vacation, imagine,

27:14

you know, you turn on the TV

27:16

and you're sitting right there, where

27:18

a whole bunch of blood had been from a homicide that

27:20

had occurred in your house and you have no

27:22

idea about it. Yuck.

27:41

So part of the

27:44

investigation was we

27:46

knew Italy was living

27:48

on this boat in South

27:50

San Francisco Oyster Point, which is was a

27:53

good thirty minute drive away from where

27:55

the homicide had occurred.

27:57

And before I had

27:59

found

27:59

the blood, I had said, well, you know, I need to

28:02

get out to this boat and look at this because we're

28:04

making an assumption that the homicide

28:06

actually occurred at the house. So I rolled

28:08

out to the boat where

28:10

bitterly lived. And

28:12

the boat itself was nondescript

28:16

and

28:16

getting into the boat,

28:18

we start to see where there's a

28:20

stack of VHS tapes.

28:23

And these VHS tapes, every single one

28:25

of them, were personal

28:28

videos that vitally had taken of the

28:30

various men that

28:32

he had brought back to the boat

28:34

while they

28:34

were showering and stuff. Now,

28:38

towards the back of

28:41

the boat, that's

28:41

where the bed was. And

28:44

as I go back into this

28:46

location, you see the bed,

28:48

I'm looking at the bed the

28:50

sheets are disheveled and then

28:52

up on the headboard. I

28:55

can see that there's several

28:57

condoms, there's several files formerly

28:59

containing lubricant as well as white

29:02

powder. So it's very obvious

29:03

what has happening in the

29:05

Middle East's bed. And

29:08

I decide, well, I need to see

29:11

more of what's going on in

29:13

the bed. So I end up

29:15

strapping on this portable alternate

29:17

light source. one of the

29:19

substances that we use an alternate

29:21

light source for is to

29:23

find semen stains. Then back in the

29:25

day, this was known as a Poly Ray, and it looked

29:27

like something that you'd see in

29:30

nineteen fifties alien

29:32

movies, where I had this

29:34

gun that was attached to a massive

29:37

battery pack on my belt. And

29:39

I'm in my standard khaki

29:42

jumpsuit. And so I crawl back into

29:44

this very confined space

29:46

of Italy's bed and

29:48

turn on the alternate light source.

29:51

it

29:52

glowed

29:53

everywhere.

29:55

And when I start to

29:57

see everything glow, we,

30:00

of course, THERE'S BEEN NUMROUS SEXUAL

30:02

INTERACTIONS OVER THE COURSE OF WHO

30:04

KNOWS HOW LONG BACK IN THIS

30:06

BET? SO

30:06

AS A MATTER OF

30:09

COURSE, I collect not only all the sheets and pillows

30:11

as well as, you know, the condoms

30:13

and lubricants and white powder, but I

30:15

also collect the mattress. So literally,

30:18

I grab everything out of the

30:20

back of this bed. Now,

30:22

one question that came up was,

30:24

well, did Joshua and Marty

30:26

end

30:26

up ever being on Ridley's boat

30:29

ahead of time. And they had

30:31

denied ever being their, you know,

30:33

their claiming we just invited him

30:35

over and it was just a

30:37

party. So part of

30:39

the prosecution was to

30:41

try to establish some sort

30:43

of preexisting connection between

30:46

the suspects in Italy. And there

30:48

was a Bacardi rum bottle that

30:51

was on this boat next

30:53

to the sink that was down in the

30:55

boat itself, I was able to get Joshua's

30:58

latent print, fingerprint off

31:00

of that bottle. Now did that prove that he

31:02

was on the boat? Well,

31:04

this bottle was a transportable item.

31:07

So

31:07

could that print have been

31:10

deposited elsewhere and then brought on the

31:12

boat, that is a distinct possibility.

31:16

However, things are starting

31:18

to kind of close in a little bit on

31:20

Joshua. As

31:22

I'm continuing to work this case

31:24

from a physical evidence standpoint.

31:27

I was like, well, what's going on in the car? I

31:29

need to corroborate the statements that literally

31:31

after he had been killed and we had a

31:33

bleeding head injury was placed in

31:35

the trunk. So I called

31:38

down to the original

31:41

CSI technician. that had processed his

31:43

vehicle and said, I found nothing. No

31:45

blood. Got no latency. And

31:47

I was like, well, how did you search

31:49

for blood? And

31:50

he said, I used an alternate light source.

31:52

And I immediately went to the Korinda

31:55

PD chief, and I said, you need to spend the

31:57

money and get that car

31:59

flat bedded

31:59

up here and I need to look at it

32:02

because I have the

32:04

ability to use specialized chemistry

32:06

to look for latent blood

32:08

stains. We got Middle

32:10

East Mercedes up here to

32:12

Contra Costa County. I opened

32:14

up the trunk and

32:17

and The first thing

32:19

my eyes go to in the left

32:22

far back corner was

32:24

a red stain that was about

32:26

twenty four inch is across eighteen inches

32:29

wide, it's

32:30

huge. So this

32:33

stain,

32:33

of course, turned out to be

32:35

blood. and it's very obvious blood.

32:37

And the question was, how could that have

32:39

been missed? Well, you

32:41

think about how you use an

32:43

alternate light source. you need to do

32:46

it in the dark. So you turn

32:48

off all the lights and

32:50

then you turn on this light

32:53

source that uses light

32:55

down from the ultraviolet, you know,

32:57

up into the visible range. And

33:00

typically, you're looking for fluorescence.

33:02

This is why it's so good to detect

33:04

semen stains because semen has a tendency

33:06

to fluoresce in that

33:09

range of light. blood on

33:11

the

33:11

other hand is

33:14

made

33:14

dark. I mean

33:16

alternative

33:16

light sources have utility

33:20

But the naked eye test is pretty good

33:22

too. It's

33:22

sort of interesting they skipped a

33:25

step. The

33:25

naked eye test would have been like,

33:27

oh, shit. That's a massive looks

33:30

like blood stain and you go straight

33:32

to the alternate light source,

33:34

you might actually miss the

33:36

most obvious This

33:38

is where you have to understand the tool

33:41

you are using.

33:42

A five dollar flashlight would

33:45

have served that individual better.

33:49

This

33:49

blood had pooled so much

33:52

that when I removed the

33:54

trunk liner, I

33:56

now could see visible

33:59

blood stains in the

34:01

spare tire compartment on

34:03

light gray painted surfaces.

34:06

And, you know, it might look like rust

34:08

to a

34:10

layperson Turns out, I ended up finding another

34:12

visible source of blood. There's

34:14

a ton of blood in this

34:18

car. Now, The question

34:20

comes down to whose blood

34:22

is it. Of course, we

34:24

think it's Fiddle East based on the

34:26

statements, but we have to prove it's Fiddle

34:28

East's blood. Well, the way to do that is to have a

34:30

DNA sample from Italy

34:32

and compare it to this

34:34

unknown blood stain in

34:36

the trunk. as well as the

34:38

blood from the house to show

34:40

yes. This is Italy's

34:42

blood

34:42

at the homicide scene. So,

34:45

at autopsy, to be frank,

34:47

these

34:47

fractures even though that the

34:49

skull itself is

34:52

penetrated all the way through by the fracture from

34:54

the surface down to the

34:56

brain level. The pathologist ruled

34:58

that neither of these fractures

35:02

in his assessment could be determined to be truly

35:04

fatal. It's not like typical

35:06

budgeting where you see depressed

35:09

fractures where now the

35:12

skull is crushed into the brain. And the

35:16

pathologist put more weight

35:18

on the fact that, yes, you have these

35:20

skull fracture you have

35:22

the bleeding and extensive bleeding,

35:24

but you also have plastic

35:26

bags that were

35:28

tied around asphyxiating Dicks. So

35:30

his last

35:31

gasps are being extinguished by

35:33

these plastic

35:35

bags. Right. So the act of the

35:38

cleanup process and trying to

35:40

contain the blood with the

35:42

plastic bags was

35:44

probably more the cause of the Middle East's

35:46

death than the blows to the head.

35:48

That's a brutal way to

35:51

go. Yes.

35:52

So the

35:53

disease's blood

35:54

standard was collected, has

35:56

is typical. Right? You go to

35:58

autopsy, the body's cut

35:59

open, and the pathologist or the

36:02

pathologist assistant puts the

36:04

blood into a vial.

36:06

And that blood is used

36:09

for DNA purposes. So I had gotten, the

36:11

disease, blood sample, at autopsy.

36:14

And when it was run

36:16

to get his DNA profile,

36:19

His blood was way too

36:22

decomposed. There is no more

36:24

DNA left.

36:26

This

36:26

is a problem. So now

36:29

it's like how am I going to prove the

36:31

blood

36:31

at the house and the

36:33

blood in the trunk of

36:35

the Middle East own

36:38

car is his own

36:40

the una DNA.

36:42

This is where the

36:44

timing comes into play because

36:46

Dicks taking weeks to get

36:49

to a point to where

36:51

now I'm realizing that

36:54

Italy's own blood doesn't have

36:56

his DNA. too decomposed.

36:58

Well, what ends up happening

37:00

at the

37:01

morgue during that time?

37:04

Well, the body's got

37:05

rid of. Right?

37:07

It's typically returned to the family.

37:09

It's buried. It's been cremated. It was

37:11

like, oh, no. You know, we may

37:13

have a problem here. So

37:15

I called down to that coroner's office,

37:18

and I explained

37:20

my Dicks. And

37:22

I'd said, I know you guys collected this blood.

37:24

It wasn't good enough to get

37:28

DNA. But

37:28

oftentimes, with decomposed bodies,

37:32

and bodies that are recovered out of the water

37:34

or bodies that have

37:36

been burned up. The one

37:39

source of DNA that

37:42

potentially still remains is

37:44

the dentin and the teeth

37:47

Here you have DNA

37:50

inside

37:50

the hardest substance in

37:52

the body, the enamel,

37:54

and it often survives. until the

37:57

very end in terms of the decompositional process. So I was like,

37:59

oh, is

37:59

there any chance he still

38:02

have

38:02

his body?

38:04

And Of course, they tell me, well, no. We don't have his And then

38:06

when I explained, I'll shoot. I was really

38:08

hoping, you know, for you guys to pull some teeth

38:10

out of his head and send him

38:14

up. and

38:14

the guy I was talking to down south said, oh,

38:16

well, you're in luck. And I was like, well, what

38:18

do you mean? We said, well,

38:21

we

38:21

got rid of his body, but we still have his head

38:23

and we have his hands.

38:25

Wow.

38:26

Why? That was

38:27

my question, Ed. He says,

38:29

well, after so long with our John Doe's, you

38:31

know, for space saving

38:34

purposes, we cut the head and hands off and

38:36

keep those. but we get rid

38:38

of the rest of the body. I was

38:40

like, I've

38:41

never heard of

38:43

that process before and nor do

38:45

I recommend it, but thank god.

38:48

So now I'm telling this

38:50

guy, hey, have your pathologist

38:52

assistant or pathologist, you know,

38:54

extract a couple of teeth from Bitaly's head,

38:56

and let's get him up here so I can

38:58

get a sample of his DNA. I'm kind

39:01

of mind blown

39:02

right now, the practice of

39:04

practices taking certain body

39:07

parts and storing

39:08

them. That's the first I've ever heard

39:09

of that. So think

39:12

about all the ways that a body can

39:14

be identified. oftentimes,

39:16

historically, you break an arm,

39:18

you break a leg, you have other

39:20

types of surgical interventions or

39:23

other anomalies that during life are recorded on

39:25

x rays or other

39:28

documents. And yet now you're going to get rid

39:30

of those potentially

39:32

identifying characteristics. in

39:34

order to save space. So this is where I'm

39:37

like, this is wrong. It adds

39:39

a layer of defense

39:42

for the suspect. Their attorney is gonna

39:44

love that. Oh,

39:45

you guys just kept

39:46

testing this material until it came

39:49

out the way you want it? The

39:51

defense

39:51

attorney's gonna go, well, Paul

39:54

Holmes magically finds all this

39:56

evidence. When we have another evidence, Chuck,

39:58

who says, I did a

40:00

alternative light source. I

40:02

looked at it myself. I didn't find any

40:04

blood. The car gets transported

40:06

north, and all of a sudden there's

40:08

blood everywhere. that's what the defense attorney is gonna he's gonna paint

40:10

that in front of a jury and be like, whoa, who do

40:12

we believe? Yeah. You know, it's

40:14

the

40:14

battle of the experts. and

40:16

in part because I had the photographic documentation. But hang on.

40:19

I thought the photos

40:20

that you took of

40:22

the blood spatter didn't have enough

40:25

exposure so they didn't come out. Well, those

40:27

were the photos from the crime scene

40:29

at the house. However, there were

40:31

photos that had been taken of the trunk of the

40:33

car where I could plainly see

40:35

this very large red stain in the

40:38

back of it. Oh,

40:39

of course. Yes. Okay. And there's

40:40

plenty of sample in the

40:43

trunk of the car. for anybody to do a second

40:45

test and go, yeah. The testing that was done was correct,

40:47

and it is Italy's

40:50

blood.

41:07

So now

41:08

they've got his head.

41:10

I was like, get some teeth, send him up

41:12

to me. And so now I'm just

41:15

waiting with abated breath for

41:17

these teeth to arrive. And I have

41:20

an officer from Morinda PD who

41:22

had gone all the way down to San

41:24

Luis Obispo to pick up

41:26

the evidence and drove

41:28

overnight in order to get it

41:30

up to the lab in order

41:32

to be tested. And so I

41:34

and he's carrying not

41:36

just a little paper bag or an

41:38

envelope with teeth

41:40

in it. He comes in

41:42

with a five gallon

41:44

bucket. And what is inside

41:46

that bucket? Oh, no.

41:48

The victim's head. Wow. And

41:51

so now I've got, Italy's

41:54

head, it had been mostly

41:56

defleshed by an anthropologist

41:58

when they were trying to identify

42:00

the John Doe. But

42:02

now I had access

42:04

to his skull and what

42:06

this gave me in addition to

42:10

his teeth I was also able to

42:12

see the fractures from

42:14

the blows that were inflicted to

42:16

the right side of his So

42:20

this helped me to further position Italy.

42:22

How he was laying at

42:24

the time he is receiving blows

42:28

And there is no question Joshua in

42:31

two different statements said he was

42:33

the one that inflicted the

42:35

blows. So this

42:38

adds into the crime scene reconstruction.

42:42

And in this

42:44

instance, now

42:46

I

42:46

could very confidently say

42:48

the victim, Italy,

42:50

was one, likely passed

42:52

out on the sofa received

42:55

a blow on the sofa while he's most likely

42:57

asleep on his side.

42:59

No blood spatter.

43:02

and then was pulled down onto the floor where now

43:05

with that bleeding injury to his

43:07

head, he receives another

43:10

blow causing the blood

43:12

spatter low down on the

43:14

front of the sofa. So

43:17

think about how Now we have

43:19

a change. The initial statements by Joshua

43:22

were self defense. First,

43:24

he's sexually

43:26

attacking me. Second,

43:28

it was he's physically attacking me

43:30

from behind, and I'm trying to beat him

43:32

off with the bottle while I'm

43:35

standing up. and the blood patterns don't correlate with

43:37

that at all. This

43:40

really transitioned

43:42

from a self defense to

43:45

now. Well, why

43:47

are they inviting Vitaly over?

43:49

It's because he's good for

43:51

drugs and money. And

43:52

once they kill him,

43:54

what

43:54

do they take?

43:55

His Mercedes. So

43:58

now we

43:59

have robbery. in conjunction with homicide and in

44:02

California, that's murder in the first

44:04

degree with

44:06

special circumstances. In

44:08

this case, murder for financial gain, which in California

44:10

qualifies for the death penalty. The

44:12

thing that I haven't told you is at

44:14

the time of the homicide, Joshua

44:16

was seventeen years old. So he could be tried as

44:19

an adult

44:19

but would not be eligible for the

44:21

death penalty even if

44:24

convicted. So

44:24

that's going to impact the potential for sentencing whether

44:27

Joshua has tried as an adult or as

44:29

a juvenile. Right.

44:31

right So

44:32

now, the teeth that were extracted from Middle East's

44:34

jaw were able to get his DNA

44:37

the DNA profile matched

44:40

the blood from the homicide

44:42

house as well as the

44:44

blood in the back of the Louise Carr,

44:46

but that's not the end of the

44:48

story. The prosecutor in

44:51

this case is

44:54

skeptical about the self

44:56

defense angle. that Joshua was claiming self

44:58

defense based on a sexual

45:00

assault or an attempt

45:02

sexual assault. Joshua

45:05

and Marty are claiming self defense. Yet then they

45:07

take his body, put it in the trunk

45:09

of his car, drive halfway across the

45:11

state and dispose of

45:14

his body, and then get rid

45:16

of his car. So Joshua and Marty

45:17

knew they had

45:18

committed a

45:20

crime.

45:21

Ultimately, it was the DA

45:24

who said, I've got some

45:26

suspicions that they

45:28

had a pre existing connection between the

45:30

suspects in Italy. So

45:33

remember that bedding that

45:36

I collected out of the boat. So

45:38

that ended up being processed.

45:41

There were

45:42

seventeen seaman

45:45

stains that were found on the bedding. One

45:48

of those

45:49

seaman stains

45:50

was a seaman saliva mixture.

45:53

Dicks semen was

45:55

tested, and it came back to

45:57

Italy, the

46:00

saliva component.

46:00

component came

46:03

back to Joshua.

46:05

though So we

46:06

were able to prove a sexual

46:08

encounter between Joshua and

46:10

Italy using DNA in this case.

46:12

Now we're going to

46:13

trial. And I am sitting

46:15

in the courtroom.

46:18

Nervous

46:19

this hell because I am going to

46:21

be testifying to my observations

46:24

of the luminol, my crime scene reconstruction,

46:28

which is going to flip the switch from defense to murder

46:30

in the first with special CERC.

46:33

And I didn't

46:34

have the photographs

46:36

to back up my statements. I'm gonna be

46:39

talking to this jury and having to

46:41

wink at them. Just believe me. You

46:43

know, this is

46:44

what I saw. So as

46:46

I'm sitting there sweating it out, one of

46:48

the San Luis Obispo detectives comes out

46:50

and he's doing the, you know,

46:53

this throat cut gesture as

46:56

he's coming out. And it was like,

46:58

what's going on? He says, we

47:00

just mistried.

47:02

What do you mean? How do you have a mistrial

47:04

before you even begin?

47:06

Right. So

47:07

it turned out that

47:10

Remember, Joshua and Marty initially went into that

47:12

house and were committing all those pillowcase

47:14

burglaries in this upper

47:18

scale neighborhood. while they during their interviews were

47:20

videoed, making all those admissions to

47:22

the burglaries. While the

47:24

defense said

47:25

I don't want

47:27

the jury to hear anything about those burglaries. It's going to

47:29

prejudge them relative to their

47:32

assessment of

47:34

the murder. So the

47:36

judge ordered the prosecutor,

47:38

edit

47:38

the video. Well,

47:40

soon as Luis Obispo

47:43

detective gets on the stand and he's going to play the

47:45

video of the interview, play

47:48

button is pushed and

47:50

there is Joshua Mardy talking about the pillowcase

47:52

burglaries that they were doing in front of the

47:54

jury. Oh, man. So

47:56

somehow the

47:56

video never got edited.

47:59

that

47:59

Yes. And that's

48:00

when the defense just flew into a

48:02

rage and the judge shut the case

48:05

down. Now, this

48:07

case case wasn't retried. A

48:10

plea deal was reached.

48:12

And Joshua was sentenced to

48:16

seven years. Oh,

48:16

my. I'm assuming that's because Joshua is a

48:18

juvenile and the death penalty and

48:21

life without parole are

48:23

not an option. Correct. So

48:26

was Marty charged with murder as well

48:28

as Joshua? No.

48:30

So Joshua fully admitted, he

48:32

was the one that inflicted the blows. Though

48:35

The did not

48:36

line up with the evidence, but he's

48:38

the one who's admitting to have killed

48:41

Italy. Marty

48:42

was an accessory

48:44

that was involved and admitted to being involved in the cleanup and the disposal

48:46

of the body down in San Luis

48:49

Obispo. Now I forget if

48:52

he was charged with anything specific or if he reached

48:54

a plea deal, you know, before this

48:56

case went to original trial.

49:00

And what

49:00

was Joshua's motive? robbery,

49:03

there

49:03

is no admission

49:04

to that, and he wasn't convicted

49:07

of that. But what are

49:09

Joshua Mardy doing in that

49:11

house before evidently shows up?

49:13

They're committing burglaries for

49:16

financial gain. And then the

49:18

reason they said they brought

49:20

Italy to the house was

49:22

because Italy had drugs and he

49:24

had money. And I don't

49:25

know if what they got from him, from a

49:27

drug or money standpoint, but they

49:29

got his Mercedes. you

49:32

know, now ultimately they got rid of the Mercedes. But

49:35

still, you think about that

49:37

set of circumstances with the way

49:39

that this crime played

49:42

out. You hit a sleeping man on the sofa on the side of the head, pull

49:44

him down on the floor and hit him again.

49:46

Put plastic bags and

49:48

tie those plastic bags around his

49:52

head. and put them in the

49:54

trunk of the car. Well, you've committed a homicide and

49:56

you've had a financial gain.

50:00

Thank

50:00

God for your creative approach to

50:03

figuring out what actually happened,

50:05

Paul. Is that

50:08

kind of out of the box thinking if

50:10

awful, truly, truly awful ever

50:12

happened to me, I'd want

50:14

investigators like you and Dan

50:16

and Dave on my

50:18

case to actually look

50:20

in every single corner, turn

50:22

over every rock. Well,

50:24

but

50:24

that's what we should

50:26

be doing. you know, we get into this line

50:29

of work and the public puts

50:31

their faith in us and pays us,

50:33

you know, to work these

50:36

cases. And the unfortunate

50:38

aspect, like, well, this

50:40

case, somewhat underscores, is that

50:42

there can be a huge disparity between

50:46

individuals

50:46

in terms of their

50:49

ambition, their persistence, and

50:51

their expertise and experience. Dicks

50:54

so oftentimes, if

50:56

you were to be killed in one jurisdiction,

50:58

a case could be solved. If you were

51:00

killed in another jurisdiction, The

51:03

case remains cold for forty years. I've said for

51:05

years,

51:05

there are times where it just

51:07

depends on which

51:10

investigator gets assigned to your case

51:12

whether or not you're ever gonna have an answer to

51:14

what happened. Sure. That's

51:15

just a real life aspect. And no

51:18

matter what you are doing in

51:20

your life, whether it's a

51:22

positive negative experience or

51:24

outcome for that event is going to be

51:26

based on the people

51:28

that are feeding into getting you to that

51:30

point and law enforcement is no

51:32

different. Yeah. Well, thank you

51:33

for that.

51:34

thank you for that

51:35

Thank you, Paul. I learned

51:37

more again listening to Paul Holmes. So

51:40

true.

51:43

Small town

51:44

dicks is produced by Gary

51:46

Scott and Yardley Smith and

51:48

co produced by detective Stan

51:50

and Dave. This episode was

51:52

edited by Logan Heftel, Gary's Scott

51:55

and me, Yardley Smith. Our associate producers are Aaron Gayner

51:57

and The Real Dicks Our

51:59

music

51:59

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52:00

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52:03

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52:05

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and cats

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