0:00

Hey, what's everyone. Today. I have a really cool

0:02

interview. Matt St. Lists, who is a

0:04

friend. And I used to work with him

0:06

years ago at his and his

0:08

wife's bakery. And, Matt was a really

0:10

cool boss. so I know he was really

0:12

into, uh, us employees being on

0:15

time. Never did less. We

0:18

were cool. And we worked together and

0:20

then I found out he was sober

0:22

and he was becoming sober at the same time. I

0:24

started to be. And so we met,

0:26

we had munch and then we decided to start

0:28

a podcast together. And that

0:30

podcast was and still

0:33

is called the intoxicated

0:35

podcast. I'm going to link in the show

0:37

notes. It's a really good podcast.

0:39

He and his wife, Sherry are

0:41

currently releasing episodes weekly.

0:44

And the podcast is about addiction and

0:47

relationships. I'm no longer part

0:49

of the podcast I bailed. Um,

0:51

and then I did buy this really good microphone.

0:54

Matt kept it as a result of me baling,

0:57

but you can tell he's still using

0:59

that quality microphone and his sound

1:01

quality on the interview as much better than mine.

1:04

Because the day for the interview, I left my good

1:06

one at home. Nevertheless. Today,

1:09

Matt and I, we talk about substance abuse,

1:12

sex building, back trust.

1:14

And then we focus again primarily

1:16

on the topic of sex. And

1:18

Matt is in the middle of a master's degree program

1:21

in sexual health at the university

1:23

of Minnesota. I mean, shares his knowledge

1:26

and wisdom with us. It's a great

1:28

interview. Welcome to

1:30

solving disconnection and creating

1:32

connected relationships for

1:34

couples and parents. My name is

1:36

Jason Polk and I've been a couples therapist

1:39

for over 10 years, and I love

1:41

helping couples get along better.

1:44

Now let's hear from Matt, what is he

1:46

up to and why does he

1:48

do it?

1:49

in a master's degree program at the University

1:52

of Minnesota in Sexual

1:54

Health. Because, think

1:57

the sexual intimacy, sexual

2:01

relationship component, of relationships

2:04

and recovery is so, so,

2:07

so important. and here's another

2:09

area where what

2:12

we have seen, didn't really ask

2:14

the questions on this, so sorry if I'm going No, go

2:16

with the sex. Let's talk about sex. Um.

2:19

So, so,

2:22

again, there are kind of two ways

2:24

that this works in an alcoholic relationship.

2:27

Uh, what happened in our case was

2:31

continued to have sexual relations,

2:34

even as I was, drinking abusively,

2:37

and I became, just tremendously

2:39

unattractive to my wife because of

2:41

the alcohol, there's still things

2:43

that I wouldn't call Universalisms. But

2:46

there are trends that we notice. And so, one

2:48

of those trends is that the

2:50

men that we work with tend to Think

2:53

attraction has to do with physical appearance

2:56

and that ship has long

2:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. married and have kids. Like

3:01

if you think that woman is still with you because

3:03

you go to the gym, you're freaking nuts,

3:06

man. Um, about creating

3:08

this safe environment. So when our

3:10

environment wasn't safe anymore because of

3:12

my drinking and my gaslighting and my

3:14

calling her names and my making it, uh,

3:17

making her walk on eggshells. 'cause she never knew what

3:19

to expect. I was just ridiculously

3:22

unattractive to her. in

3:25

order to avoid, avoid the conflict

3:27

that would come from, uh, sex

3:30

all the time, we did continue

3:32

to engage in sex. So it

3:34

was consented. I never, you know, I

3:37

never crossed the consent line, but

3:39

it wasn't enthusiastic consent. It was,

3:42

you know, it was, I'm going to do

3:44

this. So that I can keep from

3:46

staying up all night, hearing him complain about the

3:48

fact that I never have sex or so

3:50

that I, you know, one of the things she said often

3:52

on the podcast is just heartbreaking, is

3:55

sometimes she would con consent to

3:57

sexual contact so that, uh,

3:59

I would go to sleep, I'd pass out afterwards and

4:01

I wouldn't wake up the kids, complaining about the

4:03

fact that we didn't have enough sex. So one

4:06

of the two paths that is common, Is continued

4:08

sexual activity, ,in active addiction.

4:10

The other one is for it to completely dry

4:13

up, and sometimes this is mutual. It's

4:15

not always just the non

4:18

substance using partner. either

4:20

way, it often just, sex

4:22

is a, it just becomes a, something

4:25

we don't even talk about. Don't even consider. It's

4:27

just not part of it. And so when you enter

4:31

recovery, I'm a believer. That

4:33

first of all, in relationship recovery, trust

4:36

is the hardest thing to win back when you've

4:38

been through something traumatic, like alcoholism.

4:41

I think this probably also applies to

4:43

infidelity. you know, there are lots

4:45

of other things that this probably applies to. winning

4:48

the trust back is the hardest component,

4:50

and I think linked to the trust is

4:52

intimacy. It is virtually

4:55

impossible for some, uh,

4:57

two people can have sex when there's not trust.

4:59

That's not a problem. But to have

5:02

feelings for each other, emotional

5:05

intimacy, that is basically

5:07

impossible when there's not trust. Hmm.

5:10

one of the things that we talk a

5:12

lot about on the podcast and that we work on

5:14

in our own relationship and that we talk through

5:16

with people, with other people, is

5:19

this idea that, a mutual

5:21

work thing be done. Trust leads to intimacy,

5:24

but can lead to trust

5:26

as well. So working on that emotionally

5:29

intimate part of the relationship, being

5:31

vulnerable with each other, being

5:34

physically intimate with each other, be again,

5:36

that's the ultimate vulnerability, right? getting

5:39

naked and lying next to someone and trusting

5:41

them. With your soul, your

5:43

physicality, your men mental state,

5:45

everything. That's kind of the ultimate,

5:48

in vulnerability. And so working

5:51

through to the point where you can do that

5:53

not only comes from trust, but it also helps

5:56

build trust so that the trust Hmm. carry

5:58

over into everyday life. Um,

6:01

so that's a big part of, uh,

6:03

kind of the direction we're going now. The

6:05

reason I'm in this master's program is through

6:08

our peer support, through our podcast, through working

6:10

with couples, we can get people

6:12

to talk about anything alcohol related, but

6:15

as soon as we start talking about sex or intimacy,

6:17

people typically get, get pretty

6:19

shy. And so I

6:22

needed kind of formal education to continue

6:25

develop,, our knowledge in that area

6:27

because, people are less

6:30

forthcoming with their experiences

6:32

as it relates to intimacy than they are as it

6:34

relates to alcoholism. Does that make sense? Yeah.

6:37

Yeah. Hundred percent. This comes up a lot, in

6:39

my practice, And with

6:41

my audience desire discrepancies let's

6:43

assume things are generally safe and

6:46

one partner wants more

6:49

sex than the other. Right? I

6:51

know it's a very general question. There's not too many

6:54

details., I guess how do you work with that?

6:56

Or like what's, what are your thoughts? Well,

6:58

th this is an area where, this degree program

7:01

has come in super handy. I

7:03

think it's really interesting. I've read,

7:05

so I've read all the, these research studies now, right?

7:08

'cause I'm in Mm-Hmm.

7:10

you know, flying blind, right? And

7:12

talking to people, And one

7:14

of the studies that I don't think it gets a lot

7:16

of attention, but is super interesting to me,

7:19

is that male is

7:22

directly relink to survival of the species,

7:25

right? Orgasm and ejaculation

7:27

are not technically exactly the same thing,

7:29

but. Uh, 99% of

7:31

the time man orgasms, he

7:34

gives off sperm, right? so,

7:37

the fact that typically,

7:39

again, not always, again, goes

7:42

both ways, but Mm-Hmm. The

7:44

male has,, the higher libido.

7:47

It just makes or,

7:50

Uh, even if you're a creationist, it,

7:53

it makes yeah. Yeah. the,

7:55

that for the man to have sex is

7:58

necessary for the, for survival of the species.

8:01

a woman to orgasm is not, has nothing

8:03

to do with the survival of the species, this

8:06

one area for a woman to

8:08

orgasm usually takes a high degree of

8:10

trust and vulnerability.

8:13

if the woman is sexually satisfied,

8:16

then she's probably with a pretty upstanding.

8:20

dude who's, or, you know, obviously we,

8:23

there's all kinds of different sexual orientations

8:25

and gender identities, and I don't want to exclude,

8:27

but most of the work that we do is in a really hetero,

8:29

heteronormative, you know, area. so

8:32

for a woman to orgasm, um, she

8:34

needs to really trust this guy. The

8:36

emotional and mental, that goes

8:39

along with the physiological. Now certainly,

8:41

there, there's lots of research that proves

8:43

that women can block all that out and they can orgasm

8:46

anyway. Um, but for kind of the

8:48

natural state of things, be

8:50

in a, a situation where

8:53

they can be stimulated to orgasm, they have to

8:55

be relaxed and trusting. And so their

8:57

part of the natural selection process,

9:00

the female part of continuing of

9:02

the species and pleasure

9:04

being an important component of that is IM

9:07

it with somebody that I feel safe with. And

9:09

if I do, then I can relax and enjoy

9:12

it. And then, you know,

9:14

the desire discrepancy is, is still

9:16

an issue because desire and pleasure

9:18

and orgasm are not the same thing. But

9:21

now, you know, when you're in this situation

9:25

where the orgasm gap is narrowing

9:27

and there's a lot of trust, the

9:30

emotional intimacy is being built in

9:32

the relationship, then it's a

9:34

lot easier for couples. And,

9:36

I draw on my own personal experience first before

9:39

then we've kind of related and found that other couples

9:41

are in similar situations. Then

9:44

it's a lot easier for

9:46

my wife, for instance, who has a lower libido

9:48

than me to still, look

9:51

forward to sex and, understand

9:54

that maybe, she isn't

9:56

thinking about it all day the way I am and looking forward to.

9:59

To getting in bed at night, but she still

10:01

knows she's gonna get a lot out of it. She's

10:03

gonna feel warmth and connection

10:05

and trust, and she's gonna be care

10:08

of. And she's, she's not gonna be put in

10:10

any situations that make her uncomfortable. And

10:12

so, the desire discrepancy

10:15

becomes less of a factor there's

10:18

still something in it for her. are

10:21

you, are you from Yeah, I'm sure you are. Are

10:23

you're familiar with Esther Perel and her work? Yeah.

10:26

Yeah. I'm a huge Esther Perel

10:28

fan, one of the things that

10:30

she talked about is, desire

10:33

or arousal, actually arousal's

10:35

the better term for as

10:38

after they've been in a relationship for a long time is

10:40

often, you know, it's not instinctual.

10:44

It takes a little bit of work but

10:46

if you know that it'll come and that arousal

10:48

will be followed by pleasure. Um, then

10:50

there's something in it for both parties and

10:53

it makes kind of negotiating around

10:56

desire discrepancies, a more

10:58

kind of doable thing. The

11:00

other thing I'll say, oh my God, Jason,

11:03

we are so, we so

11:05

under communicate when it comes

11:07

to relationships in a general way, but

11:10

definitely when it comes to sex, expect

11:13

our partners to be mind readers. We expect

11:15

them to know what we want and when we're gonna want

11:17

it, and how we're gonna want it. And

11:20

we've been taught from an early age that conversations

11:22

about sex and sexual activity, taboo.

11:26

And if we can just break through that, I'll tell you, my

11:29

wife and I talk about sex every single night. not

11:31

a long conversation. But it's often,

11:34

Hey, what are you interested in? And,

11:37

you know, we know each other really well at this point.

11:40

And I can often say, Hey, I can tell

11:42

you were having trouble with one of our

11:44

kids leading up to bedtime. And

11:47

you guys were in a heated discussion about something.

11:49

And I know that, uh,

11:52

hits the brakes to use a term by

11:54

Emily Naski, Yeah. Who, is

11:56

the author of the bestseller. Come

11:59

as You Are. She talks about, uh,

12:02

arousal and desire and

12:04

there being breaks for those me, there

12:07

are very few breaks for me. Like I can have

12:09

sex naked in a cornfield and I'm good to go, but

12:12

there are lots of things that make it undesirable

12:15

for my wife. And that's a very typical relationship

12:18

situation to be in. And so if she's had a stressful

12:20

situation with one of the kids when we go to bed,

12:22

I know that's really, it's off the

12:24

table for tonight and I need to be, I.

12:27

Mature in understanding get

12:29

that, and get that just because that discussion with

12:32

one of our kids didn't bother me. Doesn't mean it,

12:34

it didn't bother her. And so communicating,

12:37

like I said, every night, and some nights

12:39

I'll say, listen, I really

12:41

would like to have some kind of sexual contact tonight.

12:44

For whatever reason the wind blew

12:46

just right today. But I, I feel

12:48

a stronger need than normal. And

12:51

um, know, she will enthusiastically

12:53

consent, not because her desire is there, but

12:56

because is in a partnership

12:58

with somebody and, she wants to meet me halfway.

13:01

When other times I say, you

13:03

know, I could take it or leave it. And she'll say,

13:06

well, you know, I really would like to leave it. And

13:08

I'll say, great. But if we don't have that conversation,

13:10

then we both lay there wondering what

13:12

each other's Yeah, totally. frustrated

13:14

'cause I'm not getting enough. She's getting frustrated

13:16

'cause she feels like she constantly has to, give

13:19

in. And then we have what we call big nights,

13:22

which is, the object of a big night is

13:24

her sexual which it

13:27

takes longer. more of a process.

13:30

But it's awesome, man. I love big

13:32

nights, but you know, you can't go to bed at 1130 at

13:34

night when you've got kids and, and job and

13:37

Yeah. expect that. So we have to kind

13:39

of plan for that. And if you're not communicating, then you're

13:41

not planning for it. And I think a lot of the frustration

13:43

in relationships just comes from a lack of

13:46

communication. Do you see that in your practice? Yeah,

13:48

let me share, the frame that I got for

13:50

desire discrepancies is

13:52

kind of what exactly what you were talking about. Usually

13:55

I'm just gonna say, hetero-normative couple

13:57

here, you know, the male partner wants more sex,

14:00

the female partner maybe as kids.

14:02

It's like, oh my God, I'm touched out. I

14:04

just can't, I'm like, just so

14:07

drained at the end of the day. And

14:09

also maybe she feels like she's doing everything she

14:12

may feel, you know, disconnected emotionally from

14:14

their partner. And so generally,

14:18

I hear this from the female partner, I would be more

14:20

open to sex if we had more of

14:22

emotional connection. Right. Which

14:24

another way of saying it is if, if the relationship

14:26

feels safer. Yeah. If I know

14:28

you, if you are sharing your vulnerabilities,

14:31

and the problem is the male partners,

14:33

usually I feel emotional connection when

14:35

we have sex, right? Sometimes it's even

14:37

associated with worth, right? When we don't

14:39

have sex, I think that I'm

14:42

a piece of crap, right? Is the male partner, Mm-Hmm.

14:45

and so we gotta make that explicit, right?

14:47

We gotta get that out there, right? Exactly what you're

14:49

talking about. Talking about it. And

14:51

then I think a safe place to

14:53

start is with the emotional connection,

14:56

right? Start sharing more. And

14:58

then someone shared this analogy, just kind of looking at it as

15:00

like, a wedding cake. The first tier

15:03

is emotional connection. And

15:05

then when there's more of that, then you can put

15:07

physical connection. I'm not talking about sex,

15:09

however you define it, and then you're able to put

15:12

sex on top of that. But

15:14

once that is there, then

15:17

simply the idea of talking about sex. And

15:20

you mentioned the brakes, right? The accelerators.

15:23

Um, having that conversation, I

15:25

throw it out there, what do you guys think

15:28

about scheduling sex? Right? Whatever.

15:30

It works. But the more there's safety

15:32

and they're talking about it, the better. So

15:34

I don't know if that answered your question. Well, yeah.

15:37

So many things that you just said. I totally

15:39

relate to. I think Disney and the Hallmark

15:41

Channel have done a huge disservice to

15:43

our society Hmm. by

15:46

creating these fantasies that

15:48

we are just gonna read each other's mind and.

15:50

No, stand in front of the fireplace and wanna

15:52

rip each other's clothes off. Once you've

15:54

got kids and jobs and you got a few years

15:57

under the belt, that ship has sailed.

15:59

That is not gonna happen Um, there's also relatively

16:02

recent research that I've read that

16:04

talks about there's a nurturing chemical

16:07

that they've identified, a nurturing

16:09

hor hormone that kind of clicks

16:11

on in a female's brain, uh,

16:14

once she becomes pregnant and it never

16:16

clicks off again. And so Uh another

16:19

huge barrier that we had to work

16:21

through in our relationship is I

16:23

needed to understand that

16:26

we, so we have four kids. mm-Hmm.

16:29

My relationship with my kids is different than

16:31

my wife's relationship with the kid, the kids. And

16:35

two relationships with the kids make

16:37

my relationship with my wife different

16:39

than my wife's relationship with me. Very

16:42

confusing. I know, but. Basically,

16:44

here's what it boils down to, because of this

16:46

nurturing hormone, um, because she

16:49

gave birth to them. My wife

16:51

thinks about our kids all the time when

16:54

my kids are not in the room with me. Maybe

16:56

this makes me a bad father, but, but I know

16:58

there's a lot of us out there that feel this way when

17:00

my kids aren't in the room with me, I'm

17:03

not thinking about 'em. And, we can

17:05

go long periods of time in

17:07

this kind of area

17:09

where like, if we go away for the weekend, don't

17:12

think about him at all. And my wife thinks about him all

17:14

the time. And so I have had to come to grips

17:16

with as, not

17:18

only a father, but al also as the

17:20

husband to my wife. I've had to come to grips

17:22

with the fact that my, my kids

17:24

are her first priority. And

17:27

I have acknowledged she

17:29

is my first priority. Uh,

17:32

the way it's supposed to be, man. I think yeah. mutual

17:35

and family unit, I don't think there's anything

17:37

wrong with it. And I've run into it over

17:39

and over and over and over again with the people

17:41

that we've met. when

17:44

I expect her to prioritize me or

17:46

our sex life or our intimacy, or our

17:48

connection or any of that stuff over

17:51

my kids, I'm crazy man.

17:54

All I'm doing throwing wedges

17:56

into the relationship. It has

17:58

been profoundly impactful on

18:00

our relationship for me to recognize she is

18:03

always gonna choose them over me. And

18:05

that's okay. And actually I want that because

18:07

I want my kids to have a mother

18:09

like that. I want them to have this, um,

18:12

protector to that degree, right? Because

18:14

I know I'm gonna protect her and ultimately

18:16

I'm gonna protect everybody. Um,

18:19

not trying to be all masculine male, like

18:21

I swing a big sword kind of a thing. But,

18:23

by prioritizing her when she's prioritizing

18:26

them, think there's a lot of Cohesiveness

18:29

and a lot of stability to

18:31

that kind of structure. And I think it happens

18:34

naturally and we wanna resist,

18:36

'cause we want to talk about equality everything's

18:39

the same. You know, one of the, one

18:42

of the biggest problems, going back to my hatred of

18:44

the, the wedding vows, here's

18:46

kind of a side hatred. I

18:49

hate the fact that, people refer

18:51

to their, the love in their marriages

18:54

as unconditional love. I

18:56

think that's complete crap. think

18:58

by definition, marriage

19:00

is a, and re and romantic relationship

19:02

is conditioned love. I

19:04

chose you because there were things about you that

19:06

I liked. You chose me 'cause there were

19:08

things about you that you liked, things

19:10

about me that you liked. We have set

19:13

these conditions and we've bonded ourselves

19:15

together. The love that I, that I

19:17

feel for my kids, and certainly the love my

19:19

wife feels for my kids is totally different. That's

19:22

unconditional. They could come, and

19:24

uh, hit her in the knee with a baseball bat and she'd

19:26

still love 'em. So we

19:29

do a disservice when we wanna, just

19:31

kinda say, I need

19:33

to love you as much as you love me. And

19:35

we, we, we co-parent equally. We

19:38

co-parent for sure, but we have different we

19:40

need to acknowledge it's okay. Like

19:42

it does so much good for our relationship

19:45

that I know that she's gonna pick them over

19:47

me because yeah, yeah. For sure. grips

19:49

with that and I can deal with it. Does

19:51

that Yeah, that makes a lot

19:53

of sense. You know, let me share

19:55

too, the more we can. Make

19:58

it less about us, the better. And

20:01

for example, one time my wife and I, we

20:03

went on a, a just a couple years ago,

20:05

I guess now we went to Florida and

20:07

the kids were with my parents and we had a

20:10

week. And so in my mind I'm thinking

20:12

like, you know, we're gonna be together and

20:14

own, we're gonna have crazy sex all day. Go

20:16

to the beach. Beach, right. And,

20:19

you know, we were intimate, right?

20:21

We had sex, but,, not how I was envisioning.

20:24

And we talked about it and she

20:26

was like, Hey Jason, after the birth of

20:28

our kids, like, I feel like my body is

20:31

just totally foreign to me, right?

20:33

And I've been having like body issues and

20:36

as a result, it's hard for

20:38

me to. Be

20:40

more open to sex. Right. We would say that would

20:42

be a break, I guess we would say. And

20:44

when I heard that, it was like,

20:47

oh, wow. Right. We

20:49

had emotional intimacy there. And as a result,

20:51

I made it less about me.

20:54

Right. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna give up

20:56

and be like, oh, I'm never gonna have sex. You know, we're

20:58

gonna talk about it. But still that was

21:00

really important. Kind of like what you

21:02

were saying about her first priority is

21:05

always the kids, not me. You

21:07

know? I think fundamentally the more we know

21:09

it's not about you. Right?

21:12

Yeah. Well, it, that's right. It

21:14

changes the relationship. This is someone you love,

21:16

so now you can have empathy for

21:18

this thing she's struggling with, to saying,

21:21

you know, she's just withholding 'cause she's

21:23

mean, or Mm-Hmm. 'cause she's stubborn.

21:25

Or any number of reasons. You

21:27

know, back to this whole natural selection, this

21:30

whole survival of the species topic.

21:33

What she's experiencing makes total sense to

21:35

me on just a logical standpoint, right? She

21:37

has had babies, has done

21:40

her job for survival of

21:42

the species. if sex

21:44

is related to that, her

21:46

subconscious, in her, you know, the part of her

21:48

brain that she can't access, she's

21:51

checked it off the list. Why would she ever wanna

21:53

have sex again? Like, honestly, I think of it

21:55

like, I'm lucky that she ever wants to have sex with

21:57

me. She had her baby, she did her thing.

22:01

it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Nice.,

22:03

around I, I, I'm not on

22:05

my wife or Yeah. not, it's not like that, but like, Hey,

22:08

my sperm doesn't know we had a baby. My sperm

22:10

wants to keep going. I've had a vasectomy

22:12

and my sperm still thinks it's got some, some role

22:15

That's funny. That's funny.

22:17

Oh my gosh. I wanna, I wanna go back to

22:19

the desired discrepancy Mm-Hmm. I

22:22

wanna add one more thing that I think is so

22:24

important and something that when I learned

22:26

it, it changed my relationship with

22:28

my wife, it changed our intimate

22:31

relationship. Uh, back to

22:33

Belgian American psychotherapist, Esther

22:35

Perel, who is an expert in this field, she

22:38

has kind of a cute way of saying this, but I think

22:40

there's a lot of truth to it. She talks about how foreplay,

22:44

foreplay me, you

22:46

know, starts with, maybe a little shoulder

22:49

massage when we get in bed, right? Foreplay

22:52

for my wife. And I think many women,

22:54

most women, you know, dare I even

22:57

say, starts at the

22:59

end of the previous orgasm, says

23:01

Esther Perel. So what

23:04

happens during the day more

23:06

to do with the likelihood of an intimate

23:09

encounter, a physical, intimate encounter in

23:11

bed at night the things that

23:13

actually happen in bed. I can all of a sudden

23:16

turn on the charm and start rubbing her neck. But

23:18

listen, the ship has sailed. If

23:21

I was grouchy with her earlier or

23:23

I forgot to do something she asked me to do, or

23:26

you know, I left a pile of clothes, dirty

23:28

clothes on the floor, like that

23:30

is gonna have a bigger impact on

23:32

desire discrepancy most

23:37

Just being kind

23:39

of partner that our partners want,,

23:41

in kind of a long term. And just always,

23:44

you know, it's easy, right? You're in relationship

23:46

with this person. You're around 'em all the time. It's

23:48

easy to get short and snippy and think

23:50

I didn't do anything wrong. I was just trying to expedite

23:52

the communication by not listening to your

23:54

whole statement before I responded

23:57

to it. Right? it's been very impactful

23:59

on me to recognize how much

24:02

that relates to her intimate

24:04

feelings toward me. Hmm. every

24:06

time I cut her off and finish her sentence for her,

24:09

or don't really listen, 'cause I'm watching the football

24:11

game, um, that has a

24:13

huge impact on the bedroom. know what I mean?

24:16

Yeah, if, and most, I

24:18

think most men don't have any But

24:20

what you're saying though is so important, and I coach people

24:22

a lot in this, look at your side of the

24:24

seesaw. Right. You

24:26

know, but also in a way on that,

24:29

I always encourage people, to identify

24:31

what you want and think

24:33

of it. What can I do on my

24:36

side to allow my partner to

24:38

do said behavior, right? It may not

24:40

work and that's okay. Right?

24:43

But kind of what you were talking about, looking

24:45

at your side of the seesaw,

24:47

it's so important because as a couples therapists, I

24:49

see a lot the blame. Gosh, you just need

24:51

to do blank, blank, blank, blank. Okay, well

24:54

slow down. Let's think about what can

24:56

you do. And Like you can't get anyone

24:59

to do anything. They may do it, but then there's resentment

25:01

and it's gonna come back later. But what

25:03

can you do on your side? Which

25:06

boils down to the more you can

25:08

have the relationship be a safe environment.

25:12

Yeah. Trust. Trust space for vulnerability,

25:14

right? You're putting yourself in

25:17

the best position and also being

25:19

okay with it too. If my wife says

25:21

no to sex, you know, I may not like it in

25:23

beginning, but I'm gonna be okay, right?

25:25

The relationship's not doomed. I'm not a piece of

25:27

crap. yeah. You know, um,

25:30

a another just kind of profound game

25:33

changer for us in our relationship was

25:35

when I stopped because

25:38

you just, you just talked about how you can't change people. I

25:40

stopped looking at the things that my

25:42

wife was not capable of doing and

25:44

tried to make her capable of doing

25:46

those things. to basically

25:49

berate her into doing the things I wanted her

25:51

to do. I stopped looking at it that

25:53

way and started curiosity

25:55

and empathy and started saying, why can't

25:58

she do that? There's gotta Hmm. something. Maybe

26:00

it's from when I was an active alcoholic. Maybe

26:02

it is from her childhood, because

26:06

I kind of made light of it earlier, but she did

26:08

grow up with an alcoholic mother did get divorced

26:10

twice. there is, this

26:12

like, like attachment theory stuff. Maybe Yeah.

26:15

something. So a, a tangible example

26:17

in our relationship. My wife really

26:20

struggles to initiate, like

26:22

now that we talk about sex every night, it's kind of a

26:24

mutual discussion. that, even

26:27

if she did have desire, even

26:29

if she wanted to have sex, she really

26:31

couldn't initiate it. Like she

26:33

just doesn't have that tool in her toolbox. than

26:36

me getting all hurted up about that, right, I.

26:38

You know, um, why do I always have to be the

26:40

one to initiate? It makes me feel 'cause

26:43

I'm always the one initiating, which I think is

26:45

a super common, uh, complaint

26:48

Mm-Hmm. than, uh, getting, getting

26:50

all bent up about that. say,

26:52

I don't know what the reason is, but she can't do

26:55

it. Mm-Hmm. can't do it. Yeah.

26:58

I can spend the next 50 years being mad

27:00

about that, on a, a once a week basis

27:02

or whatever, or once a month basis, or

27:05

I can acknowledge it just isn't happening. Yeah.

27:07

are things I can't do either. You know, Yeah.

27:09

there's, there's stuff that she,, you

27:11

from a parenting perspective or whatever,

27:15

stuff there, I'm a pretty good

27:17

listener now, but I'll never be as good a listener as

27:19

she wants me to be. It's just never gonna happen as

27:22

hard Yeah, yeah, cut

27:24

me a little slack and say, you know, he's doing

27:26

his best and that's yeah, totally. I

27:29

agree that this quote came to mind from, uh, my

27:31

mentor, Terry Real, and he talks

27:33

about can I grieve the fact that

27:35

I'm not getting blank, right? Which

27:37

maybe, in terms of cleanliness, in

27:40

terms of, you know, money spending,

27:42

money, one person is spend there, one person is

27:45

saver. There's all differences, right? I'm

27:47

kind of more of a clean person, my wife less so let's

27:49

say to clean. Can I grieve the fact my

27:52

wife may not always put the coats in the closet,

27:54

right? Yes, I can agree that. While I'm

27:57

accepting what I am getting, right, you

27:59

know, this comes back around to this whole self-esteem

28:01

issue. The better I feel

28:03

about myself, the more I don't care whether

28:05

the coats are in the closet or Uh, You know, the

28:07

better about myself, the more I don't

28:10

care that she doesn't initiate sex and that

28:12

it's gotta be this. Awkward discussion

28:14

every night, which isn't awkward anymore, but it was awkward first,

28:16

you know? And Yeah. Yeah. gotta talk about, I want her

28:18

to mind read, but she And so

28:21

the better I feel about myself, the

28:24

more, and, and you know, self-esteem

28:26

is not arrogance. It's not narcissism. Those are

28:28

bad things and those are different things. Self-esteem

28:31

is just, know, I'm satisfied,

28:33

man. I did my best. I had these

28:35

encounters today and they went okay, and this one

28:37

didn't go so well. And I'll try to do better next time. And

28:40

I feel pretty good about myself. And I don't need to medicate

28:42

with substances. I don't need to medicate with

28:44

sex. I don't need to medicate by making

28:46

sure my wife does things my way because

28:48

I can't handle it if she doesn't. And

28:51

so this all wraps back around to self-esteem,

28:53

you know

28:54

So if you want to know more about Matt.

28:56

And you want to hear more of his wisdom,

28:59

check out the intoxicated podcast.

29:01

And as I mentioned, there'll be a link in

29:03

the show notes and he does that with his wife,

29:05

Sherry. Also, I'm gonna leave a link

29:08

for his book, sober evolution, as

29:10

well as the different programs on this name, them echoes

29:13

of recovery. And shout sobriety

29:15

and I'll leave links to all that. And again,

29:18

thank you so much for listening.