0:00

I usually don't interview couples on those podcasts,

0:02

but today I'm sharing an interview with

0:04

a lovely couple. Their names are Sammy

0:06

and neat. Now Sammy and Nate are

0:09

natural every day, same old couple.

0:11

Well, of course all couples are unique

0:14

in their own way, but Sammy

0:16

and Nate have a podcast called date forever.

0:18

They started the podcast to learn how to have

0:20

a connected and passionate relationship.

0:23

Today they share what they have

0:26

learned from over 190 episodes

0:28

interviews with relationship experts and

0:31

also over 15 years of

0:33

being in an intimate relationship together.

0:36

One of my mentors, Stan tack, and said something

0:38

like people are naturally drawn

0:40

to connected couples. And

0:42

during this interview, I was definitely

0:45

reminded of that. The theme of

0:47

this interview is collaboration being

0:49

on the same team. And also

0:51

being intentional about connection.

0:53

So check it out. And I know you'll be able

0:56

to take some tips from this and apply

0:58

them to your relationship. Welcome

1:01

everyone. This is solving disconnection

1:03

and creating connected relationships for

1:05

a couples and parents. My name is Jason

1:07

Polk, and I've worked this goofy with couples

1:10

as a therapist and coach for over 10 years

1:13

on this podcast. I share my experience professionally

1:16

and personally, as well as those

1:18

of our amazing guests. So here's the

1:20

interview. Well,

1:22

Sammy and Nathan, thank you so

1:25

much for joining me on

1:27

my podcast. And I

1:30

would love just to hear, I found

1:32

you two because of your podcast, but can

1:34

you talk about your podcast?

1:36

And first of all, I'm going to give a plug for it. It's

1:38

a really cool

1:40

podcast and it seems like you have a really big,,

1:43

following a lot of influence. but

1:45

can you talk a little bit about it? Yeah.

1:47

So our show is called date forever. We've

1:50

had it now for about four years.

1:52

What this is all about is really about dating

1:55

your, your special person forever,

1:57

but also dating yourself. It's

1:59

been a little bit of a, a mission of ours

2:02

for the last few years. And how this really came about

2:04

was that, Around the time of our

2:07

fifth wedding anniversary,, we

2:09

were very loved up and we were

2:11

about to, basically renew

2:13

our vows, because we knew

2:15

how much our relationship had changed over the,

2:18

the five years that we'd been married. And that seemed

2:20

to be a very different space to where

2:22

a lot of our friends and, people

2:24

around us were in, where there

2:26

was a lot of our friends that were going through,

2:29

Some really bad breakups and

2:32

in some cases divorce as well. And

2:34

so it really kind of got us thinking about like,

2:37

well, where do you learn relationship

2:39

skills to keep a good relationship

2:41

in a, in a great place? Rather

2:44

than a lot of the advice and things

2:46

like that, that are out there to try

2:49

and help,, a relationship that's in a bad position,

2:52

um, to get better again. So

2:55

how is it that people kind of keep

2:57

a good relationship fueled up, for the

2:59

long term, especially if they

3:01

hadn't been shown a healthy,

3:04

happy, thriving blueprint at home

3:06

in their childhood? Yeah, and I think that

3:08

the, the trouble as well with, even

3:10

having a healthy, happy, thriving relationship

3:12

at home is that you don't really see what's

3:15

happening behind the doors. Um,

3:17

like your parents might look thriving

3:19

on the surface, but like, what

3:21

are they actually doing to keep their own

3:23

relationship fueled up? Like you might see them go on

3:25

dates every now and then, but it's really hard

3:27

to, to actually know a lot of the conversations

3:30

that they're even having behind closed doors. Yeah,

3:32

no, I got it. But I like that.

3:35

You know, where do you learn about relationships?

3:37

And that's a really good question. And

3:39

as you two know, I'm a couples therapist and

3:41

a lot of people really haven't learned

3:44

that, you know, it's almost like we

3:46

piece together like different things that maybe we

3:48

learned from our friends or, you know, movies,

3:51

um, things like that. So

3:53

obviously I think it's great that you two have

3:55

that resource and that's kind of the question you're

3:58

exploring. Um, Nathan, real quick, I had

4:00

a question. Can you speak about, dating

4:02

yourself? I mean, obviously it's clear dating your partner,

4:05

but I know you mentioned that. Yeah. So,

4:07

so dating yourself, I think is one

4:09

of the key things that has really come out of

4:11

the podcast and, um,

4:13

and exploring relationships in that. It's

4:16

one thing to be able to date your partner and to,

4:19

kind of love up on them and learn about them

4:22

and. Build deeper connections with

4:24

your, your special person. But I

4:27

think one of the key things that keeps

4:29

coming up throughout a lot of the conversations we're having

4:31

with experts is that you really need to be doing

4:33

that with yourself as well. Um,

4:35

having that real deep understanding of what

4:38

you love and what you enjoy and actually doing

4:40

those things as well. Like it's one thing to,

4:42

to know that you playing

4:44

guitar or something, but then actually going and

4:46

doing that and spending that time with yourself. And

4:49

really embracing the things that you love.

4:52

But also giving yourself the, like

4:54

maybe the space or the time to,

4:56

to reflect and, and really

4:58

spend that with yourself and getting the most

5:00

out of this life, I guess. and making sure

5:02

that, yeah, you're really taking

5:04

the opportunity to, to embrace this life. Well,

5:07

it's almost like a, like a balance. I mean,

5:09

and what I make up is that you two,

5:12

I assume, do a good job

5:14

of this, but as what you're saying,

5:16

like a balance of dating your partner and dating yourself

5:18

yeah. So in,, in 2017,

5:22

When we renewed our vows, we'd been married

5:24

for five years, we'd seen a lot

5:26

of, like, friends and

5:28

people in our, like, world go through

5:30

these really awful breakups. And yeah, like

5:33

Nate said, in some cases, divorce. And a

5:35

lot of those people, you know, we were

5:37

at their wedding, and it was

5:40

not a shadow of a doubt that these two were,

5:42

like, Compatible and could build a

5:44

really beautiful life together and

5:46

then somewhere along the way, it, it

5:48

didn't work out how they intended

5:51

or how they first set out. but it

5:53

was probably only like two years after

5:55

that in about 2019,

5:57

where I went through quite a large

5:59

trajectory of growth personally,

6:01

professionally. I crammed about 10

6:04

years worth of learning into

6:06

about three years. I was in a

6:08

professional capacity where I was being exposed

6:10

to new ideas, um,

6:13

new education, like just a whole

6:15

other, way of, of learning. Growing

6:17

and being and operating in the world. And,

6:21

um, it sort of started to create

6:23

this gap where I was growing

6:25

at such a rapid rate in myself

6:27

and I really liked who I was becoming,

6:30

but Nath wasn't, Nath was,

6:32

um, not yet on that personal,

6:34

um, development journey. Um,

6:37

and I think it really highlighted how

6:39

much work I was doing on,

6:41

on me and my relationship with myself.

6:44

Which, ironically, then I realized

6:47

I, I had neglected a whole

6:50

part of myself and I'd end up, ended

6:52

up wrapping my, a lot of my personal

6:54

identity and self worth around

6:57

this job and this, profession. Um,

7:00

and I actually, I ended up, Resigning

7:02

and quitting with no plan, um,

7:04

which is another big part of

7:06

how we ended up starting the podcast.

7:08

But it was kind of through those couple of,,

7:10

big asteroid kind of moments,

7:13

in our life or observing

7:15

them in, in nearby friends that the recognition

7:17

that, Hey, my relationship. with

7:20

myself sets the tone for every

7:22

other relationship that I have., and

7:25

the way that I show up in my relationship

7:27

with myself is absolutely going

7:29

to impact my marriage. So

7:31

I think that's something that Nathan and I have been cultivating

7:34

very intentionally, basically

7:36

since like 2019, like

7:38

onwards, we've got far more intentional

7:40

about our own relationship with ourselves,

7:43

our own individual, growth and

7:45

personal development journeys, but also,

7:47

the commitment to growing together

7:50

as well. Yeah. So cool.

7:53

And, maybe the part of this is a little bit jealousy,

7:55

but do you feel that, uh, the podcast has

7:58

helped you to be closer together? Absolutely.

8:01

Yeah, we've, we've been running the show for

8:03

like almost four years now. I think

8:05

we're at like 180, 190 episodes,

8:08

something like that. So yeah,

8:10

we, we've spent at least that many

8:12

hours talking with couples and

8:14

experts about the tips

8:16

and tricks that we use. That they found to keep

8:18

her relationship fueled up. And we've

8:21

got this really beautiful balance of talking with,

8:23

with experts, people who know the technical

8:25

who have studied, who are, you

8:27

know, psychologists and specialists,

8:29

um, people like yourself, Jason, who

8:32

like have gone deep on learning

8:34

things like attachment styles, and then share

8:36

that with the world. But then we get to chat with

8:38

couples about like what tactically

8:40

works for them. And sometimes

8:42

those things are. at the

8:44

opposite end of the spectrum of what works

8:47

for some people and what doesn't work

8:49

for others. So yeah,, it has,,

8:51

kind of been like being in couple therapy

8:53

every, at least every week for

8:56

the last four years. So yeah,

8:58

the show has,, definitely brought us,,

9:01

a lot of growth, a lot of intimacy,

9:03

a lot of opportunities to have conversations

9:05

and look at things from a different perspective.,

9:08

and yeah. learn

9:10

about some of, the tools, tips, and

9:12

tricks that are available.

9:14

And a lot of them are free, to

9:17

take care of your relationship. I've

9:19

really enjoyed,, yeah, hearing the polar

9:21

opposite,, approaches to relationships.

9:24

Um, so an example of this is that

9:26

I think this was in episodes of almost right

9:29

next to each other as well. That one couple came

9:31

on and said, our divorce is always on

9:33

the table. Like, we choose each other

9:36

and we choose each other every single day. And.

9:39

If we're not choosing each other, then

9:41

we should be getting divorce kind of thing. Whereas

9:43

like the other couple came on and was like,

9:46

no, divorce is never on the table.

9:48

We're going to work through whatever, it's never an option,

9:50

every challenge that

9:52

comes through, we're all in together.,

9:55

and I can absolutely see both approaches

9:57

to this as well. And What works for one

9:59

couple might not work for the other, but

10:02

it doesn't mean that it's wrong, it doesn't mean that

10:04

it's right even, yeah, as

10:06

long as you and your partner are on the same page about

10:08

your approach to your relationship

10:11

and what works for you, that's

10:13

the key thing there. Great. Well, I mean

10:15

the question that I would have for you two.

10:17

Oh, yeah, by the way, I changed the name of my podcast

10:20

to solving disconnection how

10:22

to create more harmonious relationships

10:25

and harmonious and connected relationships

10:28

And so I guess the question is yeah, so

10:30

what do you two do? I know that could be a huge

10:32

question, right? Yeah

10:34

But what we do a lot, I,

10:39

I think, um, we, like

10:42

we have six ingredients, I would say that,

10:45

um, are like happy to share.

10:47

So, um, starting at

10:49

a, an annual level, every

10:52

year we take one or two days,

10:54

To together and

10:56

intentionally plan our year. We

10:59

get away from our normal environment.

11:02

Um, we review the year that was

11:04

and set some goals, intentions, plans,

11:07

um, both individually and as a couple for

11:09

the upcoming year. We check in on

11:11

our values, how well we're living them.

11:13

If they're still true for us., if something

11:15

has changed, we talk about our,

11:17

um, 10 year like vision

11:19

plan. Like, where are we going? What do we want out of

11:22

this big life? we check in on our

11:24

lifetime goals. there's this

11:26

beautiful exercise by Keith Abraham,

11:28

your 100 lifetime goals. You can

11:30

Google it. It's on his website. Um,

11:33

so we check in on those 100 lifetime goals

11:35

and figure out whether or not there's anything that

11:37

we, we achieved in the last year that was on that

11:39

list or anything that we're, going to prioritize

11:41

achieving in the next year. Um,

11:43

we do a lot of reflection, like what were the wins?

11:45

What were the things that,, worked really well

11:47

last year. What were the hurdles? What were the

11:50

hurdles? What were the curveballs?

11:52

How did we handle them? Are we happy

11:54

with how they, we handled them? And

11:57

sometimes it's nice to do this from the, a

11:59

place of like the dust has already settled. Like

12:01

it was maybe a couple of months ago

12:03

or sometimes even, you know, almost

12:06

12 months ago. Um,

12:08

and that you can really see what the lessons

12:10

were that we learned. So those

12:13

two days are great. kind of non negotiable.

12:15

We've done it probably for about Maybe

12:17

seven years, seven years,

12:20

I think, maybe a little longer because, and

12:22

that came out of,, our place where we,

12:24

we had moved interstate,, away from,

12:27

our, friends and family and the first

12:29

year that we were living, more long distance

12:31

from, those core networks, we'd ended up

12:33

flying like seven or eight times

12:35

to go and be it. In that location, and

12:37

we'd really struggled to establish our new life.

12:40

And we realized like, Hey, we need a, we need a better

12:42

way of doing this. We need to get more intentional,

12:44

more proactive and shift from,

12:46

reactive to proactive.

12:49

So yeah, that's one of the very first

12:51

things that we do to set ourselves. and our

12:53

relationship up for success and to thrive

12:56

and gosh, the plan does not always go to plan,

12:58

like, and the goals, we do not always achieve

13:00

all of them, but, we get on the same

13:02

page about what's important to

13:05

us. and then at a,

13:07

probably like a quarterly level.

13:09

So as at the change of the season, um,

13:12

so we generally do that at like the end of

13:14

November is when we do our annual planning. So

13:16

then three months later, we'll, we'll

13:18

have a little like. Probably two hour sort

13:20

of check in on that plan.

13:23

How are we going? Have we dropped

13:25

the ball on anything? Have we made the progress

13:27

that we wanted to make? So

13:30

like, for example, one of the things that we

13:32

want to do in this next 12 months is take

13:34

quite a sizable trip to Europe.

13:36

So there's, you know, we need a budget. We need a plan.

13:39

We need to, book some things. We need to do some

13:41

research. So we can't just wait

13:43

until. A couple of weeks out from the trip

13:45

to do that. So we, we set some goals to,,

13:48

sort of do phase one, in the first,,

13:50

sort of summer season of, of 2024.

13:53

So we check in quarterly on those kinds of things.

13:55

and then at a monthly level, we just

13:57

do a quick, fuel tank check in.

14:00

we live by this idea of living

14:02

a beautiful fueled up life,, that

14:04

is across eight different fuel tanks.

14:06

Um, so we check in on those. Would you like me to share

14:08

them? Is that helpful? Please! Yes,

14:11

I dig it. Yeah, cool. So

14:13

we kind of realized,, that we needed a bit

14:15

of, a better way to make

14:18

sure that we were taking care of all areas of

14:20

our life. And this is something that kind

14:22

of came out, um, of the, the burnout that

14:24

I had created for myself in 2019.

14:26

And I did a bit of a, a retro

14:29

on what had worked and what had not in

14:31

the previous few years that had got

14:33

me to a place where I was so depleted and

14:35

so unhappy. And, um, you know,

14:37

Nate, the gap between Nathan and I was quite big.

14:41

Um, so we went and looked at what are the different areas

14:43

of our life and how do we take

14:45

care of them? What does, thriving look like

14:47

in those areas? So the first

14:49

tank is, we've already talked about

14:51

it, is, self. So my relationship

14:53

with myself sets the tone for every other

14:56

relationship that I have. Tank

14:58

number two, romantic relationship.

15:00

Tank number three, relationships and network,

15:03

tank number four, humming household,

15:06

tank number five, career and business,

15:08

tank number six, wealth and lifestyle,

15:10

tank number seven, the world, and tank

15:12

number eight, the future. So every

15:15

month we just do a quick little check in on how

15:17

are those tanks feeling? Is there one

15:19

that's maybe higher or lower

15:21

than we want it to be? Very rarely higher

15:23

than we want it to be. Lower than

15:25

we, lower than we want it to be. Is there

15:27

a tank that's a real priority that we need? You

15:30

know, that needs some attention like now.

15:32

Yeah, so we do that monthly and we normally do it like

15:35

over coffee. At a cafe

15:37

or sometimes while we walk our dog, and

15:39

then, yeah, we just have a bit of a,, relationship

15:41

check in chat, yeah, about what's

15:44

working, what's not. I think the key thing

15:46

about these tanks is that they don't necessarily

15:48

all need to be full all at the same time.

15:51

Yeah., and so a lot of that monthly

15:53

check in is like, maybe our,

15:56

how many household Is

15:58

it a, is it a two, uh,

16:00

two out of five or something, but maybe

16:03

that's not the priority for this month. Maybe

16:05

the priority is career and business,

16:07

or maybe the priority is that we've got

16:09

a couple of interstate trips for

16:12

weddings and things like that. So maybe our, focus

16:14

area is our relationships and network

16:16

for this month. So it gives

16:18

us, that compass,, to guide us as

16:20

to where we should be focusing our energy

16:23

for the next month or for portions

16:25

of the month coming up. It also helps us just like

16:27

flag some logistics stuff. Like when

16:30

we going on a date. Are there any birthdays

16:32

coming up? Are either of us traveling for work?

16:34

Have we got any concerts or gigs

16:36

or events that are fixed commitments

16:38

in the calendar? Things that you probably don't want

16:41

to sneak up on you on Sunday night to

16:43

be like, Oh, wow. That's happening this

16:45

week. So that's kind of our, um,

16:47

monthly. Rhythm. The

16:49

next level down then is our dating practice.

16:51

So, so what we do is a,,

16:54

two by two by two dating practice.

16:57

So what this is, is that the first two

17:00

represents that we go on a date every two

17:02

weeks. The second two is

17:04

that we, have a night away

17:06

every two months. And then the third

17:09

two Well, in the original version

17:11

of this,, that we saw was that you go on

17:13

a holiday, like a bigger holiday every two years.

17:16

but because travel and adventure and those sorts

17:18

of things is, really high on our values,

17:20

we actually go away for two holidays a

17:22

year. so that's the two by two by two.

17:25

so how this works, I in practicality is

17:27

that, the date every two weeks is not

17:30

like a fixed printed, like. every

17:32

second Friday night kind of thing for us. The

17:34

way we do it is that, I'll

17:36

organize a date in the first half of a

17:39

month and then Sammy will organize a date

17:41

in the second half of a month. And this works really

17:43

well for us because it allows us to

17:45

either choose something that, like

17:47

if I'm organizing a day, I can either choose something

17:50

that I would really like to do and bring Sammy

17:52

along to, or I can choose

17:54

something as well that. But I think

17:56

that Sammy might really love to do, and

17:58

have that as, as a really enjoyable experience.

18:01

And it really helps because, it

18:03

means that we're not always, like one

18:05

of us is not always playing lead and

18:07

the other one just going along for the ride,

18:10

but we're playing that key. Kind of great lead and support

18:12

role. So we don't need to do everything

18:15

ourselves if we don't want to, we normally try and

18:17

keep it a bit of a surprise or like

18:19

have a little teaser, but we send each other

18:21

calendar invites for it. And that

18:23

will normally put a little sort of teaser,

18:25

like tagline, I guess, for the date. Yeah, it

18:27

builds up a little bit of suspense and

18:29

surprise, leading up to the date. So it's,

18:32

yeah, it's really fun. It really works well for us.

18:35

And it really encourages us that this is important,

18:37

like our quality time with each other is important.

18:40

And it does, it goes in the calendar,

18:42

um, like any other appointment with

18:45

a third party would. I mean,

18:47

this rhythm works really well for us,, early

18:49

on in our relationship. I was

18:51

the,, instigator and the planner

18:53

and the scheduler. I have a background

18:56

in event management, so it comes pretty naturally

18:58

to me. But I was kind of robbing

19:01

myself of the opportunity to, to

19:03

be the receiver., because I was

19:05

so like, let's, let's plan it. Let's

19:07

schedule it. Let's get it in the diary. Like I, you know,

19:09

we live busy lives., and

19:11

if we don't prioritize it, it will just

19:13

fall off the bottom of the list. so this

19:15

works really well for us, but yeah, like Nate

19:17

said, the original version of this, like we found

19:19

it on like a Reddit thread and we were like, Hey,

19:22

we've been struggling to find a rhythm that works for us.

19:24

Maybe we should try this on., and we've been

19:26

doing this for years now.

19:29

and we've got a beautiful like journal

19:31

of all of Our dates, we just take a photo, um,

19:34

every day and then we, we keep a log of it.

19:36

So it's really quite nice to look back on

19:38

and be like, Oh wow, look. And then some months we

19:40

have had far more than two dates.

19:43

especially if we've been on holidays, that sort of thing. Yeah.

19:45

So I guess the, the second two, in

19:48

that, um, In that two by two by two, like

19:50

being the nights away. I think some

19:52

people struggle with that or struggle to

19:55

comprehend how we go away every, every

19:57

two months and things like that. But six times a year.

19:59

Yeah, it is only six times a year. And what

20:01

we normally do is try and

20:04

tack that onto. a trip that

20:06

we're already taking. So if we are traveling interstate

20:08

for a wedding or something like that, we'll normally just try

20:10

and take. Or like the last, last

20:12

week I had to be in another state on

20:14

a Monday for a work commitment.

20:17

So rather than me just traveling up and

20:19

back on the day, we went on the Friday

20:21

and Nate came with me and we

20:23

got to make a bit of a weekend of it. Um, but

20:26

I also respect that we're coming from the

20:28

place where we don't have children. So some

20:30

of the logistics here are probably a little, a little

20:32

lazier for us. But

20:34

I guess we just look for those opportunities to be

20:36

able to, take those nights away

20:38

without it being. a big

20:40

standalone thing, that might be disruptive

20:43

to, to our normal schedule. So

20:45

then ingredient number five.

20:47

Oh, sorry, Jason. Yeah. No, I was going to say, yeah. Cause

20:49

I know there's a, yeah, there's a two

20:51

more, right? Yeah. Yeah.

20:53

Yeah. Okay. So number five, let's hear it. So

20:55

ingredient number five is our weekly

20:58

happy hour. So this is normally

21:00

a short little chat that we have, uh,

21:02

we often go out for coffee or something, and

21:04

have this conversation. And this

21:06

actually came from a podcast guest. You're talking

21:08

about how, um, the podcast has influenced

21:11

our relationship. This came from, um,

21:13

uh, Harry and Tristan, which was like,

21:16

In our first, in the first half of our

21:18

first year, I think, Harry, I

21:20

think it was a Harry, Tristan, one of them shared,

21:22

this practice that they have with, their partner

21:25

where they, um, and they had been sort

21:27

of prescribed it, uh,

21:29

by their relationship counselor, but, um, you

21:31

know, it was a, an agenda of questions

21:33

that really sets them up for the week.

21:35

So it starts with, yeah., it's just a handful

21:37

of questions, but like, starting with like,, what

21:39

would you like to be appreciated for

21:42

or actually giving appreciation for

21:44

the other person?, we talk about the calendar,

21:47

like what's going on for the next week or

21:49

two,, food. How

21:52

are we keeping our pantry, fridge

21:54

stocked? Who's cooking? Um,

21:56

what are we cooking? What night? So we normally just make

21:59

a little rough menu menu for the week.

22:01

and we figure out like, okay, who's going to cook on what

22:03

nights if there's, if we've each got commitments,

22:06

we take a look at money. So we open up our banking

22:09

app and just look at like, did

22:11

we spend what we thought we would? Are we on budget?

22:13

Are we off budget? We've got any bigger expenses

22:16

coming up. Is there any curve balls, anything like

22:18

that? Yeah. I work for myself,

22:20

so my income is Is variable. So

22:22

sometimes we need to massage things a

22:25

little bit to make sure our cash flow still works well.

22:27

we talk about sex, what, what are you liking?

22:30

What are you not liking? How are you feeling about your body?

22:32

Anything you want to try? and

22:35

it sounds like pretty clinical, but sometimes

22:37

it might be like, when's our opportunity?

22:40

What's this week looking like? Yeah. Especially

22:42

if we're traveling or something as well. So

22:45

yeah it's definitely something that we, we factor

22:47

in. And then we just have a general check in,

22:49

like, how was your week? Did you feel connected

22:51

to me? and probably one of the most

22:53

important questions that was

22:56

really uncomfortable at the beginning, but now we've

22:58

got a really good practice and rhythm around it is

23:00

like, is there anything you would like me to

23:02

apologize for? Um, is

23:04

there something I've done or not done this

23:06

week that really upset you? And

23:08

yeah. For whatever reason, we haven't had a chance

23:11

to, clear the air or

23:13

perhaps even, maybe it felt like a small

23:15

thing in the moment, but here I am like four

23:17

or five days later still ruminating

23:19

on it. Yeah, it creates a really nice container

23:21

for us to like, we kind of now refer to

23:23

it as like let air out of the balloon,, so

23:26

that it never pops. So it's one of

23:28

those things where, if you've done something once,

23:30

like, it's very easy to change that habit as well,

23:32

whereas if you've done something multiple

23:35

times, like, and you've created

23:38

a habit about it And you've never received any

23:40

feedback. Yeah. It's

23:42

one of those things that it becomes harder for yourself

23:44

to then To then change that habit, but

23:46

it also has probably

23:49

irritated and frustrated your partner for a

23:51

long period of time, which has then built

23:53

up that resentment as well. So, so

23:55

yeah, it is that really good opportunity as you said,

23:57

let the air out of the balloon and yeah,

24:00

just air that and nip it in the bud very early.

24:03

Yeah, and then we have a bit of a chat about

24:05

household management, so

24:07

probably two years ago now, we

24:09

implemented Eve Brodsky's,

24:12

um, fair play, system.

24:15

I think is probably the right word. she

24:17

was a project manager,

24:19

in her career. And she

24:22

had her and her husband or partner, um,

24:24

had a child and then was like, Whoa,

24:27

there is so much going on to manage

24:29

this household and this new little

24:31

baby. Why is this so hard?

24:34

So she went about making all of the invisible

24:36

tasks of running a household

24:39

really visible. So she wrote a book, the book's

24:41

fantastic. and also, an

24:43

accompanying deck of cards. so

24:45

there's about a hundred in the deck. Um,

24:47

not all cards will apply to all households.

24:50

Like for us, we don't have kids. So most

24:52

of the cards that relate to children,, don't

24:54

relate to us. so then we,

24:57

divide and conquer those cards. So we take

24:59

a look at them, um, each week,

25:01

like, and we swap like both of us

25:04

don't like doing laundry and neither

25:06

of us are particularly good at it. So that's one of

25:08

the household tasks that we really

25:10

don't want to sit with. One person

25:12

for too long. so we tend to swap that

25:14

one back and forth and same, like taking

25:16

out the garbage and things like that. We,

25:18

we mix it up on who's accountable for that,

25:21

but it really helps us like stay transparent

25:23

on. You know, what's, what's my role

25:25

as your housemate? Not just as your partner,

25:27

but we live together. Like, how do we keep this

25:30

house moving together? and that's really

25:32

quick. sometimes it shakes out a couple of to

25:34

do's and you go, oh yeah, I do need to go and return

25:36

that package, or I do need to,

25:38

um, go and pick up that thing from dry cleaning,

25:41

or I do need to book in that social thing with those

25:43

friends. We say, who said, We were going to go do

25:45

that, um, thing with like, or I

25:47

do need to buy those tickets or whatever the

25:49

task might be. Sometimes it shakes out, to

25:52

do is Nath is king of maintenance. So normally

25:54

it's my, I've normally, I've got a request

25:56

for like, Hey, can you fix this thing that I broke during

25:59

the week? Yeah. Yeah. Especially cause you're working

26:01

from home full time. Yeah. Um, yeah,

26:03

so that's our, that's

26:06

kind of the guts of our weekly

26:08

happy hour. so that's number

26:10

five, and then ingredient number

26:12

six, is daily, and

26:15

we have a very embedded

26:17

attitude of gratitude. Um,

26:19

so we have a, uh, evening gratitude

26:22

practice, whereas we're going to bed,

26:25

it's not complicated. We just do it. Ask

26:27

the question, what are you grateful for today?

26:30

and we've been doing this for a long time

26:32

now. I read, Sean Aker's book,

26:35

The Happiness Advantage, and it

26:37

blew my mind., just the idea that,

26:39

success is Comes after happiness,

26:42

not the other way around. Um,

26:45

yeah, so we want to set, a

26:47

culture of appreciating,

26:50

actively appreciating what

26:52

we have and each other.

26:54

and it's also a really great like temperature gauge

26:57

on how things are with us

26:59

and how things are with us individually,

27:01

because sometimes a gratitude will go away. Will

27:03

flow like thick and fast, like, Oh

27:05

my gosh, I'm so grateful for the bed that I've just

27:07

climbed into and that we have,

27:09

uh, an air fan in our bedroom

27:12

or that, we live, as close to the beach

27:14

as we do, or that I had beautiful nourishing

27:16

food to eat today, or, Hey,

27:18

how cool is it that I get to use zoom and

27:20

I, you know, I can work from home. Like sometimes

27:23

it's really, really easy to throw, Flow

27:26

into gratitude, and more often

27:28

than not, one of the things

27:30

that we express gratitude for is something, about.

27:33

The other person,

27:36

but some days it is challenging as well.

27:38

Some days he just, I'm just lying

27:40

there and it's like, Oh, what am I grateful

27:43

for today? Like this felt hard. This

27:46

didn't work for me today. What's going

27:48

on? But I guess it is then

27:51

it is all about training your brain to

27:53

look for the positives, out of any

27:56

situation or look for the things that

27:58

you may have overlooked

28:00

or that you just take for

28:02

granted kind of thing. So it does

28:04

really, help to kind of switch your thinking

28:07

and to really look for what

28:09

were the positives, My day

28:11

didn't go to plan, or it felt very

28:13

clunky, or yeah,

28:16

things just weren't working for me today. The,

28:18

um, yeah, the data and the research

28:20

around the power of a gratitude practice,

28:23

that it literally rewires your,

28:25

your brain, your reticular

28:27

activating system becomes wired

28:30

to look for things that you are grateful for,

28:32

things that you appreciate. And I

28:34

believe that what you appreciate appreciates,

28:37

you get more of it. Well,,

28:40

being a couples therapist and working

28:42

with couples in distress. Hearing

28:44

the practice you to do is very

28:47

refreshing. But

28:49

I want to highlight, you know, and I've been coached couples

28:52

on this basic fact a lot, and

28:54

that is you to need more

28:56

collaboration. Don't forget that

28:58

you're a team. Often people come

29:01

into my practice, they're

29:03

just like roommates, co parents,

29:06

and they're not operating as a team.

29:09

And if you slow down and remember you're on

29:11

the same team that is so

29:13

important. You know, I like the kind of intersection

29:16

you two have done, date your partner, date

29:18

yourself, which I, think date yourself

29:20

also means your own personal growth and you're

29:22

doing your own stuff and your own gratitude

29:24

practice. But I had a question when you two

29:27

were sharing this, And maybe you can't

29:29

parse it out, but how much

29:31

does your, do you two feel your relationship

29:34

affects your happiness, your personal happiness.

29:36

And maybe you, maybe there's no way to like, yeah,

29:39

you know, it's not a math problem, but just curious.

29:42

I, I'm of the belief and it's

29:44

probably why it's tank number two.

29:46

When I went through that list of eight, you know,

29:49

starting with, with me, I got to show up

29:51

and be accountable for my energy and what I

29:53

bring to this space. But over

29:56

the course of our relationship, we

29:58

got together in Seven?

30:02

Yeah. Um, and then married in 2012,

30:05

but when I look over our like 15

30:07

plus, year long relationship,

30:10

the times when our relationship

30:13

has been in hardship

30:15

or in, turbulence

30:17

or in There's probably only

30:20

really been one, one sort of chapter

30:22

of what felt like distress. But

30:25

I was not my

30:27

best in any other area

30:29

of my life. I couldn't show up as a good employee.

30:32

I couldn't show up as a good business owner. I

30:34

couldn't show up as, a good friend,

30:36

a good daughter. I couldn't show up for my

30:38

own, my own goals. Like it's

30:41

like. being sick. Like when

30:43

you're sick, you really can't do

30:45

anything outside of yourself. You just have to be

30:47

sick., and that's kind of how I

30:49

think about taking care of

30:51

our relationship. Some people will hear those

30:53

six things that we do and

30:55

be like, well, that's a lot. That's

30:57

over. structured, that's over regulated,

31:00

that's over processed or whatever,

31:02

over cooked. But for me,

31:04

like, I know that when I show up

31:06

and take care of, my relationship,

31:08

my life just gets better. and

31:11

the research shows that as well, like Harvard's

31:13

longest study. tells

31:16

us that it's not the money. It's not the career. It's

31:18

not the things. It's not the fame. It

31:20

is the quality of your relationship that impacts

31:23

the quality of your life and literally

31:25

the quality of your health as you

31:27

age. so for me, all

31:29

of those things are investments.

31:32

And I, I adore this man. I, I

31:34

love him wholeheartedly

31:36

and I want us to have a really

31:38

long, healthy, happy, thriving

31:41

life together. Um, and

31:43

what is more important than that? It's my life.

31:46

Yeah. Awesome. I think, I think one

31:48

of the key things, that we've really

31:50

kind of solidified throughout this journey of

31:52

having the podcast is that the

31:54

two of us and our relationship, really

31:57

is the foundation for our life and having

31:59

the stability and certainty

32:01

within our relationship. allows

32:04

us to navigate a lot more

32:06

variety or uncertainty

32:09

in other areas of our life. As an example,

32:11

um, Sammy was talking about her,,

32:14

career decision back in 2019 when she

32:16

was feeling burnt out and that

32:18

she decided to, Just

32:20

leave her job without a clear plan,,

32:23

for the future. And I think it was,

32:25

the stability and certainty within our relationship

32:28

that allowed her to do that,,

32:31

that we had the trust between ourselves

32:33

that we were solid. We knew we would navigate

32:36

through this, we were in it together,

32:39

and therefore we could deal with

32:41

that uncertainty and deal with it as a problem.

32:44

But the two of us against the problem. So

32:46

I think that's been a key,

32:49

key kind of driver in our relationship

32:51

and has helped us from a

32:53

happiness standpoint as well that, yeah,

32:56

that we, we know that we're in this together,

32:58

we can navigate tough things together, and

33:01

having the underlying kind of level of stability,

33:03

but also happiness in our relationships

33:06

allows that level of uncertainty in

33:08

other areas. Yeah, that's great.

33:11

And, you know, one of my mentors, Stan Tacken,

33:13

talks about a relationship. It's

33:16

helped with survival, right? And his kind

33:18

of thing is like, life is hard. and you two

33:20

are in it together. He has an analogy of the foxhole

33:23

together. And he talks about,,

33:25

you want to take care of that, right? Because

33:28

you're exactly what you two are talking about. You're

33:30

going to be better in your other roles, whether

33:32

that's career, you know, daughter,

33:34

parent, whatever that is.

33:36

And another term we say, it's Taking

33:39

care of the relationship is in my own self

33:41

interest. Yeah.

33:45

Yeah. So it's kind of taking care of yourself in a

33:47

way, we learned this, like, I don't know, this

33:50

is maybe not the, the one thing that, um,

33:52

insight from Stan Tatkin, but I think

33:54

it was him that I learned that,

33:56

You shouldn't have conversations with

33:58

your person while they're in your peripheral

34:01

vision because of our, the

34:03

way that our, reptilian brain

34:05

is still wired to think that anything

34:07

that's outside in that wide, um, spectrum.

34:10

So we, I, we adapted and was like,

34:12

okay, we don't have those kinds of big

34:14

conversations while we're like driving in the car

34:16

because we're both sitting in each other's car. periphery.

34:18

It's not safe. It's not a safe, um,

34:20

space. Was that Stan Tuckin's teaching?

34:23

Yeah. Yeah. He did a, I think

34:25

it's part of his Ted talk, but yeah, not important

34:27

conversations, like that way.

34:29

Cause he was like, glances, you know, it can be threatening

34:32

and that's interesting. but also I think,

34:34

the importance of. Facing

34:37

each other like his theory is that we're kind of like

34:39

visual animals I think he would say

34:42

and if we're having a conversation face

34:44

to face eye to eye, you know, eye contact

34:46

is intimacy It's another way to connect and

34:49

sometimes it can be challenging, right? But

34:51

he also says that face to face eye to

34:53

eye. He calls it error. Correct

34:55

like e r r o r, correct?

34:58

You know, if we're facing our partner and maybe

35:00

we say something, we can connect that

35:02

error in real time. Right.

35:04

Unlike a text, you text someone like, Hey,

35:07

what's up? It's like, Hey, why are you mad at me?

35:09

I'm not mad at you. Right. Like we don't know, we don't have

35:11

enough information via text. Maybe not

35:13

the best analogy, but

35:16

not enough data points. Yeah,

35:18

he doesn't have data, and so that's what he recommends,

35:20

the face to face, eye to eye, but yeah,

35:22

right on, like, Stan, I've definitely

35:24

heard him say that. Mmm, but

35:27

just curious,, and I know we're coming up on time, I

35:29

feel like,, you two have, so much cool stuff

35:31

to share, but what about conflict, you

35:34

know? I look at, collaboration,

35:36

harmony as a way to

35:39

mitigate conflict, right. As a way to

35:41

work on, be proactive against resentment

35:43

and disconnection. But, um,

35:46

I don't know, do you guys have like a means to handle.

35:51

It's funny that you ask this because on Valentine's

35:53

Day, a couple days ago, we were having

35:56

chats about like the beginning of

35:58

our relationship and the things that we really

36:00

needed to learn. And Nathan and

36:02

I fought so much in that

36:04

first year. Like, I think that was

36:06

probably, like, one of the most turbulent years

36:08

of our relationship was the first one. We

36:10

were, like, trying to figure stuff out, and we were already

36:13

in love, and we were already so committed, and it was

36:15

like, how are we going to make this work? Because it's like, all

36:17

this stuff. But then probably

36:19

after that year, we probably entered

36:21

a chapter of, like, almost, like, artificial

36:24

harmony,, where we never fought.

36:26

We proudly wear that badge of

36:28

like, we don't fight, we never fight. and

36:31

I think in retrospect,

36:34

that was probably both of us so

36:36

afraid that if we raised

36:38

concerns or provided feedback

36:41

that we would rock the perfect ship

36:44

and maybe we wouldn't handle it. so

36:46

we've definitely had to learn how

36:49

to do conflict. And I

36:51

think, in the beginning I was

36:53

probably. Too harsh,

36:56

too abrupt, too direct with

36:58

some feedback for Nath, and

37:00

then Nath would take that, personally,

37:05

not as a invitation

37:07

to,, improve, or

37:09

to grow, Yeah, so there's definitely been,

37:12

like, learnings around when

37:14

we're raising things, opportunities

37:17

with each other, it's not a question of

37:19

your self worth, it's like, I love you

37:21

and I love us, and then our

37:23

relationship could be even better if,

37:25

you Like ABC, but I think

37:27

a lot of it has been about taking like

37:30

learning to take ownership and accountability and responsibility

37:32

for like our part in whatever the conflict

37:34

is, but we are far

37:37

better at it now than, we

37:39

have been, and I think we will continue to get

37:41

better at it. I think One of the gifts of

37:44

having been together through,, quite

37:46

a few chapters of life, like, you know,

37:48

early 20s,, finishing uni,

37:50

finishing our studies, getting our first

37:53

kind of, like, grown up jobs, and

37:55

then, you know, more mature

37:57

adulthood, I guess, and, you know,

38:00

buying assets and talking about

38:02

long term wealth and all of that sort of stuff. Like we, we've

38:04

had the, gift of growing

38:06

through those stages together.,

38:09

and those different stages have required,

38:11

you know, Different versions of us

38:13

and the way that we show up for like to do

38:15

that conflict. But I think now

38:18

when we have conflict, it

38:20

doesn't leak into other areas

38:22

of our life. Like it doesn't, the

38:24

cloud doesn't hang around.

38:27

we kind of have the conversation.

38:30

Take any time or space that we need,

38:32

come back, and we're now

38:34

really good at doing the retrospect

38:37

on that conversation, like, how do you

38:39

feel we handled that? Like, what did

38:41

you learn about that? And we can now

38:44

do that really effectively without getting

38:46

back into the conflict. We really

38:48

can just look at it from a helicopter without

38:50

Wow. reentering

38:52

the tension. Yeah.

38:55

And I think the little practice that we talked about before

38:57

as well of our weekly check ins, to

38:59

kind of let the air out of the balloon on those little things

39:02

that, that may have, yeah, rubbed

39:04

me the wrong way, so I think that

39:07

in itself, is helping

39:09

to. Prevent some of the bigger

39:11

conflicts, but it's also strengthened our

39:13

muscle around leaning into some

39:15

of those less comfortable conversations.

39:18

it was a pretty uncomfortable practice when we first started,

39:20

but it's become a lot, lot easier

39:22

to raise that., and I think the

39:25

key thing about conflict is it's

39:27

very challenging to resolve an issue when

39:29

you're in the heat of the moment. Sometimes

39:32

you do need to step away.

39:34

And I think that's what our weekly

39:36

check in chat has really given us

39:38

the opportunity to do that. We're not

39:40

in the heat of the moment. We can raise something

39:42

in a safe space where we know that we're present

39:45

with each other. We've got each other's

39:47

attention where we're

39:49

in the place where we're willing to

39:52

give and receive feedback. I

39:54

think trying to set up that, that

39:57

safe space to raise

40:00

any issues or conflicts, has

40:02

been a game changer for us too. Yeah.

40:04

And I think just kind of knowing you'll have the space

40:06

because I, my take, it's like, and

40:08

what you two were talking about, I don't want to rock the boat and

40:12

it's sometimes a dilemma. And I think

40:14

for us some of us kind of like avoidant

40:16

type, right? It's like, do I want to

40:18

bring this up now? Do I want to rock the bow?

40:21

Is this legitimate? I don't want to stuff

40:23

things. Right. But just having that

40:25

check in set, I think

40:27

can be really important. I

40:29

think for both partners, you know, right now I want to tell you

40:31

how bad you suck, but I'm going to get a little perspective,

40:34

slow down, take a deep breath, and

40:36

then we'll talk about it in our check

40:38

in meeting. And that's great. I really like to

40:40

coach couples on having that. Yeah.

40:43

And there's nothing worse than, like

40:45

we were talking about before, like sitting in the car, driving

40:47

to a friend's place or something and, and

40:50

having a conflict when you're, when you're sitting

40:52

next to each other, not eye to eye and things

40:54

like that. And you're getting all heated up

40:56

and, you get to the other end and you sit

40:59

in the car and go, we're going to go in now. And,

41:01

you know, Uh, and then you go inside and you're

41:03

playing all happy families and yet you give each

41:05

other daggers across the room, like, nobody

41:07

wants to be doing that. So if, there

41:09

is the opportunity, it robs you,

41:11

it robs you of the, where you

41:13

are and the, yeah. Yeah. So

41:15

if there is the opportunity to be able to

41:18

maybe just park the conflict, knowing

41:20

that you've got the safe space in a day or two

41:23

to be able to bring it up, and maybe

41:25

you're no longer in the heat of the moment and you can,

41:28

reflect on your part in that conflict

41:30

as well, or whether there's anything you

41:32

could do better. we've definitely

41:34

learned some tricks around dealing

41:37

with conflict along the way. Yeah. Yeah.

41:39

I think one of my biggest,, insights about, like,

41:42

fighting with you, Nath, is, like, you

41:45

process things a lot slower

41:48

than I do, like, I, I'm,

41:50

like, move,

41:52

move quite quickly. Into solution space.

41:54

Yeah, whereas, like, and I've learned

41:57

that that's not helpful, and

42:00

recognizing that if we are,

42:02

leaving each other in

42:04

the middle of a conflict or an argument,

42:07

like setting up the parameters of I need to take a walk

42:10

or I need to step away or whatever.

42:12

And that like giving. One

42:14

another permission for that to be okay

42:16

and not have that trigger

42:18

like any kind of abandonment of like, oh, my

42:20

God, they're leaving and just recognizing

42:22

that we do do conflict

42:25

differently. And we do have different needs in that

42:27

conflict. Like, I think, nate's

42:29

primary love language is touch, so

42:31

like, if he feels me like, physically,

42:34

put space between us, that's actually,, quite

42:37

hurtful and quite harmful,

42:39

more so than maybe it

42:41

would affect some other people, but even

42:43

just those little things about like, okay,

42:46

I, I don't want to touch you

42:48

right now. I'm in a,, fight

42:50

or flight or flood stage. the

42:52

last thing I feel like, but that I've

42:54

learned just how that's not helping

42:57

me or us, to really resolve

42:59

it. and I think one of our core learnings,

43:01

like particularly that we've, we've talked about this

43:04

on date forever podcast quite a bit is

43:06

that the Gottman's, For horsemen

43:08

of the apocalypse, like criticism, contempt,

43:10

defensiveness and stonewalling and

43:13

recognizing like, which one is our, our

43:15

go to, which one was our parents

43:17

go to, like, how

43:19

has that been modeled to us? What would we

43:21

like to do differently?, And it's

43:23

not like you're trying to rewire your

43:25

brain to have different patterns

43:28

and neural pathways. It's not necessarily

43:30

easy and it's not going to happen,, with

43:33

like one attempt. But yeah, I

43:35

think having the awareness of, of

43:37

what is happening,, is really,

43:39

really helpful. You to have

43:41

an understanding And

43:43

empathy for each other, right?

43:46

and I think that's important like understanding

43:48

how you two are wired so we don't

43:50

take things personally, right? But

43:52

I also want to pause Do

43:54

you two like coach couples?

43:57

Like do you I mean, I know like your podcast

43:59

does but do you like? coaching

44:02

or things like that, how can, if someone

44:05

wants to get your advice,

44:07

your relationship advice, like follow the podcast

44:09

or, you know, what's,

44:11

yeah. so I do some

44:13

one on one coaching and you can get access

44:16

to, to me., Sammy Jaeger. com,

44:18

is my home on the internet. And you'll find, one

44:21

on one coaching services listed there.

44:23

I like to,, have conversations with people

44:25

about creating a really beautiful,

44:27

intentional fueled up life around those

44:30

eight fuel tanks with your romantic

44:32

relationship being one of them. I'll

44:34

definitely put a link in the show notes for that and

44:36

a link to your podcast as well. Yeah.

44:39

Yeah. Jason, thank you so much for having

44:41

us. It's been such a cool chat. It's sometimes

44:43

nice to reflect on our own relationship and

44:46

what we're doing. yeah, we normally, we

44:49

are, asking the questions, so it's nice to be

44:51

on the receiving end. Yeah. Well,

44:53

great. Well, you two are lovely, you know,

44:55

like, I'm not trying to sound weird, but you two are a lovely

44:57

couple. Um, keep it up. Thank you. We

45:00

got the stamp of approval from a relationship

45:02

therapist. That's good. Like I

45:04

sit in this chair all day and I see some,

45:06

uh, People not doing

45:08

so hot. Um, and they're in pain. Dysfunction,

45:11

right? Yeah. Yeah. But also just want to highlight

45:14

the opposite of it too. That's why I asked, you know, relationship

45:16

and happiness too. If you work on that,

45:19

it's just dividends, right? Like you

45:21

feel better in a way like you're, you're

45:24

happier. Yeah,

45:26

so much so. And if you do

45:29

have children, isn't that one of the best gifts

45:31

that you can give your children is to model

45:34

to them a healthy, happy relationship.

45:37

And that won't happen if it's at the bottom of the list.

45:39

Yeah, for sure. Well, um, quick

45:41

question. I mentioned this, you know, being

45:43

passive aggressive. That's, you know, my old style,

45:46

right? Would you ever throw out, um, Hey,

45:48

you know, maybe you should listen to episode

45:50

number 41 because you're doing

45:53

that thing. Do you ever use that with each

45:55

other? Uh, maybe

45:58

not too much with each other, but, uh,

46:00

sometimes we'll be walking around like

46:02

in the street and observe other people

46:04

in our environment. And we'll be like, Oh,

46:07

they need to listen to this episode.

46:11

No, but we do maybe, maybe

46:13

not, um, specifics to like, go back and

46:15

listen to this one, but we do. reference

46:18

things that we've learned a lot.

46:20

Like Adam

46:22

Lane Smith taught us about vasopressin.

46:26

And what happens when you problem

46:28

solve together as a couple. And it really

46:31

helped us realize like, Oh, wow. When

46:33

we were traveling so much in our early

46:35

twenties, we were creating

46:37

this beautiful new shared experience,

46:40

but we were also building.

46:43

this incredible problem solving

46:45

skills and trust and

46:47

vasopressin. And I had, I never

46:50

heard about that. So now we sometimes when we're tackling

46:52

something hard, it's like, okay, vasopressin

46:54

building opportunity. And

46:57

nice, right. So again, it's approaching

46:59

it from a collaborative standpoint. And

47:02

I think really important. Sammy and Nathan, this is

47:04

awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time,

47:07

especially from Sydney and enjoy

47:09

the rest of your summer. Um, and

47:12

again, thank you so much. I really appreciate this.

47:14

You're so welcome. No worries. Thank you, Jason. Um, Jason,

47:17

if I can just share one other resource that couples

47:19

might find helpful is,

47:21

we documented our agenda for

47:23

our annual game plan. So if a

47:25

couple wants to go and have that sort of one

47:27

or two day deep dive into their goal setting

47:30

and things, feel free to grab it. It's totally

47:32

free. Um, so it's at sammyjager. com

47:35

forward slash AGP., it's just

47:37

like a guide. It's got some questions in there.

47:39

It's got some agenda,, topic points.,

47:41

And it'll help you, yeah, set up, um, for a

47:44

successful conversation. So cool.

47:46

I am so glad you heard that interview with the lovely

47:48

couple Sammy and Nathan. And if this

47:50

podcast has been helpful for you, please give

47:52

us a review And Sherif with someone who

47:54

may benefit. Thank you so much for listening.