0:00

White Castle, presents CEO. Lisa,

0:03

Ingram, my great-grandfather

0:04

open White Castle in 1921,

0:07

which is why I'm excited to announce the

0:09

new 1921 Spyder inspired

0:11

by how we made a one hundred ago, with

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a hundred percent beef, patties, out with cheddar cheese

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caramelized, onions, tomatoes, lettuce and

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pickles. I don't see why originality

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never goes out of style. I'm

0:22

Lisa, but you can

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call me this flyer. Queen White Castle

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slider. Pasteurized

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processed cheese. just made it

0:31

this is a cbc podcast

0:35

the following episode contains mature

0:37

subject matter please take

0:39

care

0:42

there was a killing but that that

0:45

read about it at another mother a

0:49

killing that jax deal says

0:51

he didn't know anything about

0:54

dr okay

0:56

sure but wait but wait limit

0:58

it was a guy and know i mean

1:01

yeah i know him

1:03

it wasn't jack steals idea to become

1:05

an f b i inform and but one

1:07

day and nineteen ninety nine steel met

1:09

a new york cough named coolio vasquez

1:12

who seem to casually mentioned that is

1:14

steel heard anything interesting about

1:17

an abortion provider shot and amhurst

1:20

to come to him see

1:22

know someone is he is the

1:24

was blown abortion clinics he

1:27

was blowing up abortion clinics jack

1:31

steel is not this man's real name

1:33

but he was close at the time

1:36

to least one person with a violent

1:38

history in the antiabortion movement and

1:40

it caught the interests of the f b i

1:44

they pulled off in this are marked as

1:46

you've

1:48

and he pulls over

1:50

and hood you go to the right side an

1:53

iguana back introduced me

1:55

to ham and depressing is says that his mouth

1:57

is how would you like

2:00

the have million dollars

2:03

i'm david region and this is someone knows something

2:05

season seven episode three

2:08

the informant

2:18

right and waiting for jolla court to

2:20

arrive here and now island park

2:23

which is nice and park behind

2:25

the municipal buildings here and amhurst

2:28

it suburb of

2:30

buffalo

2:34

detective lieutenant

2:37

jolla court oversaw the detective

2:39

bureau of the emperor's police force at the time

2:41

of doctor slept means murder and

2:43

want to see as american police on the sleepy

2:46

and case had any leads on people

2:48

who might have been helping james cough

2:52

a

2:54

man who must be like court approaches up the

2:56

path tall and thin comfortably

2:59

formal with hair swept straight back

3:04

the track of mccourt i'm ,

3:06

nice to see a secessionist overtones

3:10

we sit at a picnic table at the sun

3:12

shortly after doctor slurpee and was killed

3:15

the court was called to the case and

3:17

joint task force made up of canadian

3:19

and american police who had

3:22

already been looking at the previous abortion

3:24

provider shootings north and south

3:26

of the border together

3:28

they began sifting evidence between the

3:30

cases to see if any connections

3:32

could be made

3:36

this was one of our most major cases

3:39

for a small town and

3:41

, was thrown into the next immediately

3:44

have the i shows up up

3:47

of shows up saturday morning

3:49

bright and bright canadian

3:51

authorities early up in a

3:53

dead time we find out that the

3:56

canadians and the f b

3:58

i were following a suspect

4:01

the day and

4:03

, had lost them and they thought

4:05

that they thought suspect who had shot

4:07

doctors lucky so

4:09

now all this morning saturday more

4:12

playing catch up with the information they already

4:14

have as to what's going on

4:16

the other doctors it of it's not

4:20

this is new information to me that i've not

4:22

seen or heard anywhere is

4:24

it possible that before doctor slapping

4:27

was shot the task force looking

4:29

at the canadian cases was already

4:31

looking at a threatening individual that

4:34

wasn't caught and was

4:36

this person a canadian

4:40

and who was that you know what i honestly

4:42

don't remember his name you talking to canadians

4:45

they were more non with them we really never ending

4:47

to do with them okay okay eliminate

4:49

a real right away by worry was there

4:53

hamilton police were the primary investigators

4:55

of the november nineteen ninety five shooting

4:57

of dr seuss short and and caster

4:59

ontario i contacted

5:01

them to learn more about their investigation and

5:04

i'll be speaking with the detectives assigned to the case

5:07

in the meantime they tell me they don't recall

5:09

the canadian and us task force members

5:12

were following a suspect before doctor

5:14

slapping was shot according

5:16

to jolla course it didn't take long

5:18

for the redoubled task force to

5:20

connect cough with the slutty and case

5:24

the cop was named a material witness fairly

5:26

soon and to the case may monday

5:28

we had his name and , you get

5:31

that then then , reasons

5:34

and hammers to was a jogger when

5:36

out jogger morning lift her house

5:39

morning his car was in

5:41

won't beat up car and it in vermont

5:43

play and and saw him

5:46

and he got out of the car and he out

5:48

to be a jogger and ,

5:50

didn't look right to her when she

5:53

left car was there she wrote on

5:55

plate number and with anybody

5:57

ever seen with forever that

5:59

the job the witness ever see another

6:01

person which and know not

6:04

, my recollection recollection i

6:06

was came involved in this long before they can

6:08

i was deeply involved in the original demonstrations

6:11

when we are arresting three and four hundred people with

6:13

people so we dealt with

6:15

the a pro lifers to lot

6:18

of his name's popped up just as demonstrators

6:20

that they weren't there weren't no violence other than blocking

6:22

the new works

6:25

detective jolla cord and his time

6:27

says he met a lot of these protesters

6:29

on the abortion seen so i press

6:32

and for any particular names but

6:34

he can't seem to come up with any nevertheless

6:37

he also believed then and

6:39

now the james cough must have

6:41

had someone helping him for the shooting

6:43

of doctor slurpee

6:45

there's no doubt in our minds it's someone

6:47

helped him in the series get out of the area

6:50

i , remember ever finding nemo anyone admitting

6:53

to a lot he claims

6:55

he left the area right away that night

6:58

whether it's true or not i

7:00

don't know

7:02

in fact according to court documents cop

7:05

less the area soon after on

7:07

november fourth ninety ninety eight the

7:10

media announced cop to be a material

7:12

witness to the murder of doctor slept in but

7:15

sp i believe cough was the main

7:17

suspect eventually a cop

7:19

would be on the f b i most wanted list

7:21

and he was on the run on

7:23

november first he was driven to a mexican

7:26

airport just across the us border

7:28

by a close friend who had protested

7:30

with him a friend's name was jennifer

7:33

rock and rock also returned

7:35

over seven thousand dollars the costs

7:37

that she had been holding feeling rock

7:40

also gave copper sake west virginia

7:42

driver's license rock was

7:44

promised immunity from prosecution for

7:46

her testimony at one of court trials

7:49

and i'll eventually be trying to contact

7:51

her rock is always insisted

7:53

that she didn't do anything wrong but what

7:55

is clear is that cop had health

7:57

at least during his escape the

8:00

was able to somehow network and communicate

8:02

needs

8:04

the court doesn't have access to his files

8:07

or notes and i think you've given me all he

8:09

has but i'm curious

8:11

about how the abortion issue abortion issue out

8:13

now in his old stomping grounds

8:17

it's been quiet i am hurting the demonstration

8:19

and sarah i'm ,

8:21

now for going on seven years or

8:24

more mass demonstration

8:30

the continue looking into cough and those that might

8:32

have been in his circle i had into bustle

8:35

of to visit with a former f b i agent

8:39

colbert

8:41

how are you i'm , written

8:43

from cbc bridges

8:46

nice to meet you how

8:49

long run with the affair

8:52

i promise twenty two years bernard

8:55

bernie tolbert the special agent

8:57

in charge of the fb eyes buffalo division

9:00

at the time of doctor sloppy and shooting

9:02

in charge of the sci bernard

9:04

tolbert james

9:06

car the responsible for the death

9:09

that to barnett slap your last october

9:12

we're law enforcement we will find this

9:14

man you may find him you're

9:17

in western new york you may find

9:19

someplace new and estate you may

9:21

find him someplace internationally for

9:24

law enforcement will find him

9:27

back in the presence bernie leads me to

9:29

his backyard garden where we settle on

9:31

a porch seventy three

9:33

he's athletic looking with a wary but warm

9:36

smile and close cropped receding

9:38

hair and like jolla

9:40

court tolbert joined the already

9:42

existing abortion shootings taskforce

9:45

with the canadian police despite

9:47

their pooling of resources i suspect

9:50

that the f b i may have more in

9:52

their files than the local police

9:56

the for shooting we had

9:58

advice

10:00

sleepy and other doctors in the area

10:03

because the shootings occurred around remembrance

10:05

day which is a canadian holiday

10:08

i think some your to our veterans day and

10:10

been one in rochester been some and in

10:12

kansas a we can have both senate

10:14

advisory or notes be care for this

10:17

these castings habits never ever

10:19

and own thousand years expected

10:22

, of would have anticipated something's happening happening

10:25

how quickly the canadian police start coming

10:27

down and talking to and i'd say almost

10:30

immediately they had a real strong and

10:32

to so we shared that

10:34

what we had with canadian authorities clouds

10:36

there was need for cooperation and

10:38

collaboration we didn't know as much as a

10:40

new so we could see how would sit in

10:43

in the of what we might leave from that that would helpless

10:45

once we were could focus

10:47

on cop in we get his cleats and we started

10:49

pulling records know how many times

10:52

he go to canada and we knew every

10:54

time he crossed the bridge me what lane he crossed

10:56

and what time for our sins and all that and

10:59

it was several times oh yes wasn't

11:01

are feeling yes wasn't office that cop

11:03

was responsible for the canadian soon as

11:06

i say yeah i

11:09

, that based on the fact that the

11:11

evidence pointed that way and we had

11:13

tracked his travels and and

11:16

he was in the in at

11:18

the amigo very good case that he

11:20

was involved somehow

11:22

and either assisting helping to coordinate

11:25

and that in and cases there

11:27

was a very thorough vetting

11:29

of other things cop might have been robbed

11:31

i don't know that to this day we know all of

11:33

what he did we had a pretty good idea we

11:36

know was his arrest of things he had doneness

11:39

make in the last two people protesting

11:42

chain themselves defenses in hampered

11:44

launch forces but whether other that

11:46

whether did perhaps with other rather the

11:49

been heard you said he committed

11:55

i think it's i recall he never admitted

11:57

to anything else he led to this

11:59

one eventually ah but

12:01

he never admit any others but i

12:03

would not be won the bet my mortgage

12:06

said he didn't do with it

12:10

is a thought that's probably worth while looking

12:13

at

12:13

was cop or others and the antiabortion

12:16

movement connected to other attacks

12:18

on abortion providers and united states

12:21

that perhaps somehow other

12:23

shootings weren't adenosine for what they were

12:26

as anti abortion act the

12:29

you think you could happen again in

12:32

today's america absolutely

12:35

i only wish that we could have funded

12:38

just as he had some hired something

12:40

that would have led us to

12:43

keep his oh

12:45

boy that says

12:47

, did too and i'm glad that we got him and i

12:50

know that he a lot of people

12:52

have them in we were were so many people

12:55

there are some who helped knew that we didn't amount

12:58

very notable people that were helping him

13:00

that we were love aware of in we haven't

13:02

adjusted for admire him

13:05

in his mouth easy horse

13:09

races i'm ira

13:14

who names

13:16

i've heard before

13:18

now they see and mera convicted in the early

13:20

two thousand for the federal charges

13:23

of conspiracy to harbor unknown fugitive

13:26

for helping cough when he was on the run

13:28

in the wake of the sloppy and murder and

13:30

for that they served only about two and a

13:32

half years from what

13:34

i can tell loretta marrow was born in

13:36

nineteen sixty three in new jersey and

13:39

raised catholic and had a long

13:41

history of anti abortion protesting her

13:44

mother was french sent her dad was

13:46

a philosophy professor at fordham university

13:48

and once ran for us president

13:50

fronting a political party he concocted

13:53

it's called the right to life he

13:55

wasn't elected navi

13:57

easy was a previously convicted abortion

14:00

clinic bomber who got seven years

14:02

for it in the nineteen eighties rbc

14:04

had an eighth grade education and

14:06

he in loretta mera live together in

14:08

brooklyn it's

14:11

known from court documents that by october

14:13

nineteen ninety seven mirror and

14:16

mel they see were under surveillance for

14:18

their anti abortion activities in

14:21

nineteen ninety eight around the same time

14:23

as caught the came the came and doctor slutty

14:25

and murder merit took on a new

14:27

fake identity

14:31

the of the sims arrest some missouri

14:34

and texas where to amanda robin

14:36

i looking through her files i

14:39

don't like trespass

14:41

survey or appeal for , his

14:43

hands hands that say

14:45

about of things as

14:47

has just about my tears loretta

14:50

west gem

14:52

there were in jail and vermont's and ninety

14:54

eight

14:56

in nineteen eighty nine at the age of twenty six

14:58

loretta mera suddenly started appearing in the

15:00

papers and soon after that

15:03

as seen through a trail of s b i

15:05

and trial documents her path

15:07

seems to have started crossing with james

15:09

cop july she

15:12

was arrested blockading an abortion clinic

15:14

and thing him to new york and

15:16

ten was also the original headquarters of

15:18

operation rescue where james

15:20

cops served as a liaison of sorts

15:23

to the catholic community the

15:25

ninety ninety one c n

15:27

james cart intricately locked themselves

15:30

together to one hundred pounds of concrete

15:32

in the waiting room of a long island new york

15:34

clinic the and cause we're

15:36

also both arrested in rome italy

15:38

and nineteen ninety two

15:40

around that same time florida met

15:43

dennis miller ac

15:45

then i got out of prison they're blowing

15:47

up the clinics in new york mother

15:49

see

15:51

and then loretta entrances

15:54

life at that time mother said five

15:56

yeah the

15:59

has the background

16:00

they have neighbors planning clinics

16:02

this of the in nineteen ninety four

16:05

loretta mirror then apparently married

16:07

dennis smell they see who was then

16:09

in his mid forties

16:14

like wheel

16:20

amanda's twitter files away and i'm standing

16:22

in front of a hotel in florida as

16:24

she pulls her rental sports car around

16:27

is being passed we're

16:30

heading to the swank gated community

16:32

where one of the key f b i informants

16:35

in the cases against mera males

16:37

ac and cause lives mister

16:40

jax steal a pseudonym he

16:42

invented for dealing with the f b i the

16:45

news or read a mera and and smell

16:47

vc personally maybe

16:49

steal an insider here speaking

16:52

more freely than ever before about his role

16:54

as an f b i informant can help

16:56

our cause oh

16:59

and we

17:02

arrive at an actual gate and were buzzed

17:04

through by a very thorough guard i

17:07

have my questions and agenda for steel but

17:09

as will see he has his own

17:11

self serving reasons for talking

17:13

to me

17:27

my gas presents ceo

17:29

lisa angry

17:31

great great grandfather opened white castle in nineteen

17:33

twenty one which is why i'm excited

17:35

to announce the new nineteen twenty one fighter

17:38

inspired by how he made him a hundred years

17:40

when i recently had a cat

17:42

it's harmless estimated let

17:44

us and six why originality

17:47

never got that i'm lisa

17:49

you can why

17:52

has

17:52

long live sliders after

17:54

i'd rather see everything i

17:58

didn't remember him from the yes

18:00

them from cdc podcast

18:02

and investigations into how young

18:04

men are being recruited and radicalize

18:06

on the internet

18:07

and she asked me if i was friends with a guy named

18:09

out manassas buy a new

18:11

supercharged

18:13

the page on facebook fully

18:15

say he wrote the insult rebellion has

18:17

already begun

18:18

i dark online subculture that

18:21

spilling over into the real world

18:23

boys like me as a little now on

18:25

cbc listen and everywhere you podcasts

18:30

that

18:35

hello nice to finally meet you like

18:39

hi how are you from davis very nice to

18:41

me today they this me too i can put his debut

18:43

other issues of you're welcome however you

18:45

know you by the does this affect the shoes

18:47

off i'm always with a shoes off i go

18:49

off have been nicer

18:52

erica the

18:55

of bungalow looks like nobody has ever lived

18:57

here

18:58

stark white and tiles like

19:00

a staged home ready for real estate viewing

19:03

the only indicator of activity inside

19:06

or the perfect trays of snacks laid out

19:08

and long tables filled with carefully

19:10

arranged document

19:12

the fruits of never been prepared for me in any interview

19:15

holiday as either when i was

19:17

he wanted to when you're hungry will lead to

19:20

, centrally

19:23

located hand sanitizer like sanitizer

19:26

the oh himself looks like a burly or version

19:29

of pablo picasso wearing old

19:31

jeans and a faded read t shirt with

19:33

brooklyn written and white letters across

19:35

the front he contrasts

19:37

with the hard surfaces of his house that

19:39

make anything i try recording here sound

19:42

daiquiri but we finally get down

19:44

to it in the biggest room next to the documents

19:48

the way i got involved and cut

19:50

case was very unusual sino

19:53

dennis moore they see in the sixties

19:56

who is so hang around just did

19:58

when width is when we're young and

20:01

around if new york brooklyn

20:05

and the down the line everyone

20:08

when to military i was drafted he

20:11

volunteered yeah that early

20:13

volunteers seventeen has somebody had

20:15

somebody had up for him and he went to marines

20:18

then ismail bases served in the marines and

20:20

the us for in vietnam as

20:23

a sealed radio operator and

20:25

pyrotechnics expert the

20:27

authors that after mlb see got out

20:29

of the military that movies he

20:31

started acting and according

20:33

to the new york times as mulvey see

20:35

used stage name's he also

20:37

used a number of aliases and real life

20:40

to avoid police after an indictment

20:43

on weapons charges mulvey see

20:45

learn to use a beeper to take calls

20:47

and to pick up as male at different bars the

20:50

was a conservative catholic who became

20:52

interested in the abortion issue in part

20:55

via a religious group he joined known as

20:57

our lady of the roses in

20:59

december nineteen eighty five mulvey

21:02

see started bombing abortion clinics

21:05

in nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six

21:07

he was active using dynamite

21:09

and different configurations hundreds

21:12

of f b i agents were reportedly assigned

21:14

to his case but they didn't catch

21:16

up to him until later and nineteen eighty seven

21:18

when both ac turned himself in after

21:21

of please from the archbishop of new york the

21:24

pleaded guilty to bombing one clinic attempting

21:26

to bomb another and to making a threatening

21:29

telephone call charges ,

21:31

dropped and to other bombings once

21:34

mulvey see got out of prison steel

21:36

began to help promote financially because

21:38

he says melvin he was down on

21:40

luck

21:43

okay so then you reconnect with dennis after

21:45

he gets out of prison the reconnect

21:47

with dennis and thick and under my wing

21:50

and when you came out a they live

21:52

far on the daily basis

21:54

when they will have a chance our

21:57

common denominator was food food

22:00

and food the girls

22:02

yet

22:03

though and , pick

22:06

him up the they have a car and and

22:08

would pay for everything and that's

22:10

the morality

22:13

that we had together no

22:15

, abortion know nothing

22:17

there was even spoken about hockey

22:19

about those issues not his

22:22

private life i left alone

22:24

he except that

22:27

we never spoke out but portions nether

22:30

that when nineteen

22:32

ninety eight well we

22:34

living our life and

22:36

talking eating that's

22:38

where the f b i consent follow

22:41

me

22:45

your picture

22:47

it feels very stream of consciousness

22:50

non sequitur rabbit hole return

22:52

to original thought i try

22:55

to focus on the documents the has laid

22:57

out

22:59

what did all this here anymore what are you looking at her

23:01

wouldn't sacraments tussauds actual

23:03

s i have a lotta stuff he had that i

23:05

could prove that i heard the the how much

23:11

the oh finally settled into telling me a story

23:13

about the first time he met mera who

23:15

is calling herself rose at this point one

23:18

of several pseudonym she was known to use

23:21

steel says mel's says c introduced

23:23

him tomorrow when these

23:25

shows app the girl

23:28

the news remedies or them feel rather

23:31

corroded also feel that he has and

23:34

she comes out with a long term his oh

23:38

that but he picked up from and

23:40

name was roses relisted

23:43

that time then another

23:45

road i doing

23:47

the oh claims he didn't know at this point

23:49

that mera had been arrested at abortion clinic

23:51

protests and he also claimed

23:53

that he didn't know james cough fast

23:56

forward and loretta mirror and dennis smell they

23:58

see end up getting married and children

24:00

start appearing eventually two minute

24:02

would then steal as an intriguing

24:05

detail they

24:07

get both birth in canada

24:10

the way i know she went to canada i guess

24:13

that traveled of state sen

24:15

blamed riverdale or leg was something

24:17

that's how mean those are you went to canada put

24:19

it on me that's where she gave birth where

24:22

in canada where

24:24

, a good question and ever be the ask

24:27

you never heard that you never heard were

24:29

no i as my bike share good friends

24:32

family family

24:34

of the family which of father william

24:36

mera head good friends

24:39

in canada to where

24:41

i could tell you because no one has

24:43

told me and with a second

24:45

baby and then

24:48

it with but is this yeah

24:50

she went away to the baby i never saw

24:52

the woman pregnant never saw on the

24:54

practice and make them see so stop smiling

24:57

been pregnant by guess as they

24:59

see as you know you could tell so

25:02

the second baby shows up and down

25:05

nash's two kids

25:08

court documents confirm that mera traveled

25:10

to canada to give birth to both of

25:12

her children her second child

25:15

was born in april nineteen ninety nine

25:17

this would be about six months after

25:19

james cops lead the us in

25:21

the wake of doctor slip eons murder mira

25:24

named her son james charles

25:26

cops first and middle names during

25:29

her trial for assisting cop as

25:31

a fugitive marrow was considered

25:33

a slight risk to canada because of her connections

25:36

here i want steal

25:38

to tell me the kernel of his involvement

25:40

as an informant and the cop case which

25:43

brings us back to the new york cop

25:45

name's houllier vasquez the one

25:47

who one day and nineteen ninety eight ask

25:50

steal a seat ever heard anything interesting

25:52

about the shooting of a doctor slutty and

25:54

near buffalo new york the

25:56

oh noes dennis mulvey see who

25:59

has bombs source and clinics so

26:01

he takes the information to vasquez who

26:03

then plants a meat to introduce

26:05

deal to an f b i agent

26:08

however a hobby connected at a know the

26:10

next thing i know it's called me up you

26:12

see gonna meet the guy was go lands

26:15

in airports the economy that

26:17

toys r us which is our flatbush avenue

26:20

i , we're talking about the

26:22

guys flying from buffalo isn't

26:24

as the agents get a funny

26:26

name they pulled open

26:29

this are marked as susie i

26:31

mean

26:32

the authors he and vasquez meet the handler

26:34

and right away money is mentioned

26:37

me to him and oppressing is says that is my

26:39

office how would you like

26:41

to have million dollars

26:44

look at holiest day hills

26:47

as get talking about so

26:49

he explains it to me what took place that

26:51

was that killing and on her is in goes

26:53

to this whole process of telling meet

26:56

at that at that killed then abortion

26:59

and i'm connect my brain abortion

27:01

property and but was it was whitney can

27:04

fix it in his company place and don't

27:06

those things

27:09

this point unbeknownst to steal james

27:11

cop was a suspect and doctor sloppy

27:13

and shooting mirror

27:15

and well they see according to documents

27:18

were communicating with cop as he fled

27:20

through ireland and then on to europe the

27:23

f b i thought steals connections to mulvey

27:25

see and mera might help them

27:27

gather more on caught and

27:29

find him shit

27:32

scared the

27:35

authors he came up with his code name jack

27:37

steel after jack daniels

27:40

and the tv show remington steele

27:42

both of which he like

27:44

i was sick and so nervous nellie

27:47

the bed when nervous except

27:49

that was fucking nerves south

27:52

and central manhattan

27:54

the guy says to me on the let me take

27:56

you home i know where you live what

27:59

do i live one seventy

28:01

seventy six nice i

28:03

open my mouth the holy shit scary

28:07

that is scary

28:09

so what'd ya drop me off in the park

28:11

and that go home their job meals

28:14

never again did again want to do with them

28:17

though then they get phone calls from this

28:19

guy michael osborne

28:22

mike osborne as f b i and

28:24

the agent who would become jack steals

28:26

handler there

28:28

wasn't yep but what is the purpose

28:31

work with you guys so he

28:34

said to me very slowly

28:36

very quietly we'll meet again

28:40

and still says he did meet with agent

28:42

osborne's two or three times a week

28:45

like maple he had nice smooth

28:48

easy going about him he

28:50

was non confrontational

28:53

some during the course of that's

28:55

mine

28:56

the pussy to tell me slowly that then is

28:58

involved somehow i'm

29:01

not directly and

29:03

in my mind by that time i

29:05

already in the computer but the computer two

29:08

thousand by reading learning

29:10

up by the killing of adapter i'm

29:13

aiming of this is is connecting the know

29:15

and

29:16

the or goes on to tell me a story that

29:18

he says he told his fb i handler

29:20

mike osborne about he says

29:23

that prior to doctors lucky and murder

29:25

dennis smell vc brought a gun

29:27

to store as deals house

29:29

the oh claims it was an sks

29:32

rifle

29:33

i had a weapon my house because that is

29:35

brought to my house to hold onto ads and

29:37

i took pictures on that and i think

29:39

i gave it to michael

29:41

what am i had prior to dance

29:44

, the seat he brought

29:46

to my house

29:48

and then you picked it up in a sec potato sack

29:51

of idaho potato sack he

29:53

picked it up and the as be careful

29:55

man with a rifle be careful when

29:57

back of trump i had the old car automobile

30:00

the dentist took their scarce out of your

30:02

house and of yes you have a photo of

30:05

well i'd give him for i gave it to the

30:07

agent i'm

30:09

not sure this has ever been widely reported

30:12

before

30:12

the and i also cannot prove that this

30:15

alleged rifle existed or if it did

30:17

that it may have had anything to do with any

30:19

criminal act let alone a murder steele

30:22

said he took a photo of it at the time

30:24

and gave it to the f b i the

30:27

oh also tells us another story about

30:29

dentists mulvey see that i cannot verify

30:33

the final those things said that the i

30:35

both from store the fun

30:37

or those the cap right

30:40

then it and i bought this

30:44

that deal tells us that he went to a couple

30:46

of stores with dennis smell they seats

30:49

sometime prior to doctor sloppy and

30:51

murder they're still says

30:53

they bought supplies including a flashlight

30:56

binoculars and account the

30:59

authors that he gave mulvey see his own credit

31:01

card to purchase these items and steals

31:03

real name the deal says

31:05

he swears to all of this on a bible

31:08

the goes on to say that i had matching

31:10

the description of the one that he and well

31:12

they see bought turned up

31:14

and one of the holes that was dug behind

31:16

doctor sloppy and house what the

31:18

f b i call the hassle

31:21

the cap recovered at the scene as described

31:23

by court documents as exhibit three or four

31:26

one green baseball cap with the inscriptions

31:29

new york and and why also

31:32

found in the whole was a flashlight

31:34

and binoculars i can't

31:36

say whether any of the materials found

31:38

where the same that steel says he by

31:41

with mel vc or if they were

31:43

how they ended up and cops hands and

31:45

whether mulvey see knew what they would be used

31:47

for there were also

31:49

two pairs of work gloves found with

31:51

the gun in the gun whole the

31:54

oh was paid well he tells us for

31:56

what he shared with the f b i the

32:00

the time for that would give me money

32:02

twenty thirty thousand dollars i would put

32:04

that such a good zero zero zero zero for

32:06

john smith giants made john hanke

32:08

that so nothing would be under

32:10

my name right so you're a paid informant

32:13

you are being paid to be an informant by

32:15

the f b i feel ya

32:18

oh did you ever tell dennis that you were working

32:20

with them to do you never knew any of

32:22

, until later about

32:24

what about your cooperation with

32:26

the up yeah then it's number that you

32:29

know

32:31

i asked you have you heard anything about the slept

32:33

the and case and he answers with a

32:35

tangent but a potentially worthwhile

32:38

one he says there was another

32:40

citing he read about that came from

32:42

another eyewitness

32:44

they saw male

32:47

, answer passenger

32:50

side door and

32:53

that card to both and

32:55

i'm gonna be facetious unless casper the

32:57

gas was around someone

32:59

had to drive the car

33:03

this account is reported in a buffalo

33:05

news article from july two thousand two

33:08

that sources the information from court records

33:11

the article states that the man seen

33:13

war a dark hooded sweatshirt he

33:15

ran from the bushes and got into

33:17

the passenger side of a waiting

33:19

car

33:22

i brought that to attention of michael

33:25

, about to attention

33:28

of everyone i could think of

33:31

though if this person scene and was caught

33:33

getting into the passenger side of awaiting

33:35

vehicle then someone

33:37

else was driving

33:41

the old tells me boat and action he undertook

33:43

with loretta or rose as he calls

33:45

her and an abortion clinic in brooklyn

33:48

while he was working for the f b i steal

33:50

says he was asked by rose to glue the locks

33:53

with krazy glue and toothpicks that

33:55

she provided so that the clinic

33:57

workers and patience couldn't enter

34:01

the pre planned with rose to

34:03

go and case at

34:05

that is officers was friday night saturday

34:08

night the

34:10

with the evening and

34:12

if no one is around to glue

34:15

there mark and

34:18

she picks me up whatever

34:20

time it was he's dress

34:22

any case military

34:26

style she has

34:28

her cat military

34:30

cap and ,

34:32

tells me me she picked

34:34

she from one store she

34:36

picked up to takes another so

34:38

she picked up krazy glue as krazy driving

34:42

and dumb were driving

34:44

and woodworkers we gonna

34:46

do

34:47

and is it that way conversation was very

34:49

smooth

34:51

he gave me address which around the corner

34:54

trust any of this is just

34:56

to delay sixteen to delay few

34:59

hours the more delay you have

35:01

the bed is for the army of god

35:04

will be better for their ego

35:06

or whatever you want to call

35:09

the of as he walks up to the clinic calling

35:11

his fb i handler osborne and osborne

35:14

tells him he shouldn't flu the lock in

35:16

the end steel doesn't steel doesn't but returns

35:18

to mera waiting in her vehicle on the streets

35:21

and tells her he did i

35:23

will bet i can get it and

35:26

the person she does the

35:29

makes a punk to dennis

35:31

and there was so happy the happiness

35:33

deaths and you could hear that you

35:36

could hit that man

35:39

so you build some credibility with her

35:42

sometime later in the relationship steel

35:45

says mera ask them a question

35:48

and she as me point blank and one

35:50

point am i willing

35:53

the kill attack the

36:00

an effort to have cause about you

36:04

he said at it would term she

36:06

was no question about it he

36:08

was went to kill adapter

36:10

i don't remember which which point by know

36:12

she isn't that question i said

36:14

yes

36:16

well some of what steel says can be verified

36:19

to rest be i documents the stories

36:21

steel tells me are single

36:23

source and i haven't been able to verify

36:25

them but in june two thousand

36:28

according to an f b i report mera

36:30

confided to confidential informant

36:32

cs one whom i believe

36:34

as jack steel that she

36:37

believed that she would be capable

36:39

of killing for god and a higher

36:41

good the all

36:43

tells a story about a scheme to

36:45

raise money in atlantic city to

36:47

bring cop back to north america the

36:50

endgame of this scheme as mentioned

36:52

in part in an spf a davis

36:55

rosen the story is loretta mera

36:59

the human to atlantic city you

37:01

i went there few times okay and you might

37:03

with rose to one time he talks about you want

37:05

with rose and with that and is

37:07

and their kids and the purpose of

37:09

that trip was once to raise money

37:12

for cup the combat through gambling

37:14

correct so you were gonna gamble and hope to

37:16

win enough to bring caught back and then

37:18

what was going to happen with caught like what were they going to do

37:20

with are you supposed to come back either to

37:22

canada or to new york and

37:25

do have another just and do another

37:27

drug okay so

37:30

how was fundraising through gambling

37:32

like gambling that like a vertical that that was my

37:34

suggestion of steel

37:37

says he also overheard a conversation

37:39

with more information about the plan for

37:42

cop to return to north america there's

37:45

were driving back from both male and it

37:48

suggests that

37:51

the money because they want to bring him home

37:54

but the ones that do not a job in canada

37:57

this advice and genesis words

38:00

the told you that yes sir tim they want to

38:02

bring it back he was go back to canada

38:04

he was a big effect through kemet them

38:06

through kemet the fresh

38:09

this is very important hair says dennis movies

38:11

he told you that they wanted to bring him

38:13

back yes to do another job

38:15

yet in canada that's correct

38:19

i've also read f b i reports that show

38:21

that mel vc and merits were

38:23

concerned well cop was on the run

38:26

that they should get rid of documents they had lying

38:28

around because they were worried police

38:30

might eventually get their hands on them some

38:33

of his messaging intercepted and deciphered

38:36

by the f b i caught mentions

38:38

he may want to return to the sealed or

38:40

work again mulvey ,

38:42

and mera discuss this idea sp

38:45

i states that this returned to work

38:48

is a reference to violence steel

38:50

says his key moment and the relationship

38:53

and informing relationship it happens

38:55

when loretta asked him to wire

38:57

money to james cop and france

39:02

so i picked up the phone was it's come of

39:04

the right away i have to

39:06

do something sure no problem

39:09

she drove all the way to jamaica avenue as

39:12

she put under right side this is

39:14

a storefront which is that

39:16

was a union and she

39:18

to have to go in there do something she

39:20

said to me to me say that the an old

39:22

just go inside sends his money

39:25

to the the

39:28

gay

39:29

the authors mera had brought one or

39:31

both of her children in the car with her and that

39:33

one of them was crying he

39:35

says mera intended to wire the money herself

39:38

but that the crying of the child's made

39:40

her ask steel to do it for her

39:43

i got to the front or someone

39:45

send someone for whom you say that pleased

39:48

and in said that way i was nervous i

39:50

came and tell you what i said i don't remember

39:52

what i set by did as for copy

39:56

this is to denounce friends that's

39:59

why i'm sending money the

40:01

many coffee i thought

40:03

the thing my put off at for this

40:06

made some said cooper read under my sack

40:08

and i put

40:11

my put in their time up now

40:14

i cannot walk

40:16

because it very very high tech having

40:18

a rough day the

40:21

of shows me a photocopy of the receipt

40:24

i have documents yes that

40:26

as send money to cup in the in and

40:28

friends i full this he

40:30

could see the full you could see right there right there

40:32

for okay as i'm work

40:34

and vs a seated driving

40:36

down says to me now you

40:39

are part of this involvement

40:42

niners survey what i did he got

40:44

the i'm a conspirator caucus dirt

40:47

the right the

40:49

yes that you

40:51

know the gym was and like and i

40:53

didn't know who ending a bud gym but

40:55

i knew someone that that would send money to

40:57

was part of something steel

41:01

says he told the f b i bought the money transfer

41:03

and that this along with other information

41:06

provided helped lead authorities

41:08

to cops presence and done and france and two

41:10

thousand two thousand

41:13

and that's when there

41:15

is dennis arrested gmc

41:17

cup that morning march twenty ninth

41:20

though with right away that paid me

41:23

the f b i paid fifty thousand

41:26

the justified may five hundred thousand

41:30

though in your role then it was a series

41:32

of smaller events that

41:34

you helped all the way along and the investigation

41:37

did you ever hear of ac or

41:39

rose say gym cop killed

41:42

the abortion doctor ever to do you ever meet

41:44

gym com

41:47

and this brings us around to the reason i think steel

41:49

agrees to talk to us steel

41:52

was paid reward money from the americans

41:54

for his role in james cops arrest however

41:57

he didn't receive any reward

41:59

from can indian authorities

42:03

why weren't you paid by canadian authorities

42:06

the one too okay

42:09

why don't they wanted and has good question michael tommy

42:12

the task force and canadian medical association

42:15

were offering five hundred and forty seven thousand

42:18

dollars for a person responsible

42:20

for the three canadian shootings being

42:22

brought to justice by june first two thousand

42:25

three that didn't happen

42:28

but still thinks it's just a technicality

42:30

that james cop was never brought to justice

42:32

in canada for his suspected

42:34

role in the canadian shootings the

42:37

authors he deserves the canadian reward

42:39

money for what he did to help bring copter

42:42

justice in the us steel

42:44

has has and he shows me many

42:46

emails heat exchange with various canadian

42:49

entities trying to forward his cause

42:51

and get paid i

42:54

have no religious or

42:56

political ideology or believe

42:58

i'm in ninety here night at the end of

43:01

that that's when make it clear to whomever gonna

43:03

listen to this it's

43:06

, that cop had assistance from dennis

43:08

mulvey see and loretta mera while he was

43:10

on the run and i'd like to talk to them

43:13

both both

43:15

records indicate that they still live together

43:17

somewhere in the northeastern the

43:20

according to the buffalo news at cops federal

43:23

trial cops border crossings

43:25

were noted before were shooting mera

43:28

accompanied cop on a scouting trip

43:30

before doctor ramallah was shot on

43:32

october tenth shot ninety four this

43:35

trip was in blaine washington just

43:37

across the border from vancouver b c

43:39

the city where dr remus list cop

43:42

also crossed into canada on october

43:44

eighteenth using a car registered tomorrow

43:47

and cop is also seen at the border

43:49

driving maris car back

43:51

into the us two hours and forty

43:53

minutes after ramallah says november

43:56

shooting the

43:58

run a marathon they will be there the acted

44:00

name in the f b i documents i have

44:02

where it states that cop appeared to be

44:04

traveling with another person in

44:06

a vehicle on the day of doctor

44:08

a malice a shooting i

44:11

wonder if steals as be i handler

44:13

osborne can help

44:17

hello

44:20

david the report

44:22

was first

44:24

i want osborne's opinion of jack steal

44:27

the confidential informant the

44:29

f b i find him a credible source

44:32

osborne as per comment f b i practice

44:35

will not admit steals namer confirm

44:37

that my reference to him as even correct

44:42

did you find informant always credible

44:45

the a lot of times

44:48

the promise to don't they can trust us

44:50

are major

44:51

they just don't know they can trust sources

44:54

and so you're kind of watching that game

44:57

and and sometimes you're playing

44:59

off with each other and

45:02

at the end of the day you know was

45:04

this individual the

45:06

bible absorb every got been proven

45:09

by the results of the case and

45:11

the information that source of

45:13

giving us was being validated through

45:15

other means right or asked

45:17

and source was very reliable person

45:21

next guy ask former special agent osborne

45:24

about the relationship between loretta mera

45:26

and james cop

45:28

clearly know each other she clearly

45:30

supported him and see

45:32

a dentist were complicit in

45:34

an effort to conceal his identity

45:36

swear his location for law enforcement and

45:39

to maintain his future the status and

45:42

loretta i would say would have

45:44

had the primary connections

45:46

to cop but

45:48

dennis would provide advice then

45:51

certainly follow any directors

45:53

from nevada he was

45:56

certainly not a minor player but

45:59

the he would certainly follow

46:02

the rather lead in what ultimately

46:04

cop wanted to do

46:08

often f b i agents or interviewed for

46:10

facts but osborne does

46:12

venture forth on one of my questions

46:14

concerning cop and his opinion

46:16

of the aftermath of doctor slutty and murder

46:20

do you think cop was successful

46:23

in their his aim if we look at what's happening

46:25

in the world now an issue do you think that he could

46:27

think that he was successful somehow like

46:30

he advanced his side of the argument depends

46:33

on how you define success and i think

46:35

that there's that lot of different ways to look at it

46:37

dr nick ops responsible

46:39

for the current state of affairs no

46:41

not at all do i think that he was successful

46:45

in some people's mind yes do i think that she broadly

46:47

impacted when you look at it at the

46:49

time the time think that he would have had raj

46:51

support for his efforts certainly

46:54

support some people but do

46:56

i think that there was a broad support for you

46:58

know how many people sit and backyards and shooting

47:01

doctors through the window i never

47:03

got appealing he

47:06

was tried to there

47:08

is up or legitimize his techniques

47:11

i don't think of he was successful

47:13

on that

47:15

agent osborne tells me to check out some phone

47:17

wire taps that were undertaken on mouth

47:19

ac and mera and i put in a request

47:22

to the us courts for documents that may

47:24

contain them everything moves

47:26

slowly so not sure what am

47:28

i here and answer hey

47:31

man thanks very much give

47:33

, the back to back a jack steals

47:36

place where just syncing up

47:40

you also have run

47:42

when when when said gandhi whatever that

47:45

was funny when you set the west africa

47:47

podcast called someone or something

47:50

and it's so it'll be awhile

47:52

it's gonna take awhile

48:05

oh

48:09

he has given us a pile of documents

48:11

to coffee documents that may

48:13

show us a way forward toward finding

48:15

potential accomplices to the abortion shootings

48:18

so amanda and shootings had to and nearby photocopy

48:21

shop and

48:23

we're gonna copy all these documents

48:29

you can bring him back from europe

48:31

to do more work the i

48:38

thinking back on our interview with steal

48:40

his point is essentially the same as

48:42

mine if from a different angle

48:44

and seeking a different kind of dividend can

48:47

, kind of justice be brought to the canadian

48:49

shootings shootings appears

48:52

that the second canadian case came closest

48:54

at the at dr seuss

48:56

sure it was shot and and caster ontario

48:59

in november nineteen ninety five and

49:01

police did charge james

49:03

caught with james murder but

49:06

the charges never made it to trial

49:09

so what happens

49:38

someone know

49:40

something is hosted is written and produced

49:42

by mean david written the

49:44

series is also produced by had deal

49:46

abdel nabi to death camps and

49:48

amanda rob sound design

49:51

by evan kelly emily ,

49:53

is our digital producer and our

49:55

story editor is chris oak are

49:59

executive pretty there is a hassle fernandez

50:01

and the director of cbc podcasts

50:03

is or of new ronnie

50:05

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50:17

you're looking for more investigations check

50:19

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50:22

conducted almost exclusively through a series

50:24

of strategic phone calls each

50:26

call dictates how i will investigate

50:29

cases and follow leads there

50:31

are three seasons available to binge listen

50:33

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50:35

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50:50

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