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1:29

a little bit of the song All I Want

1:31

by Joni Mitchell, the lead off

1:33

track from her 1971 album Blue. People

1:42

are still talking about this record and

1:44

influenced and moved by it, regarded as

1:46

one of the greatest of all time,

1:48

certainly one of Joni's greatest works. Unflinching

1:51

honesty, poetic lyrics, those were elements

1:53

in this record that inspired a

1:56

range of artists. Tori Amos, Liz

1:59

Fair, even Prince was singing

2:01

Joni Mitchell's praises for years.

2:04

Today we're going to take a deep

2:06

dive into blue and discuss why it's

2:08

a classic album and dissect some of

2:10

the tracks and we're later going to

2:12

share our opinions on it. Absolutely Greg.

2:14

Who is Joni Mitchell? Born 1943, Roberta

2:16

Joan Anderson in rural Alberta,

2:20

Canada with a creative kid apparently

2:22

right from the start would later

2:24

go on to art school but

2:27

it was not an easy upbringing.

2:29

She contracted polio early on. It

2:31

was that time bedridden when she

2:33

learned how to play guitar and

2:36

began to sing. She got pregnant

2:38

when she was a poor folk

2:40

singer struggling to make her name

2:42

in Toronto in the mid

2:44

60s, had a daughter that she gave

2:46

up for adoption. It was only years

2:48

later in the mid 90s when a

2:51

tabloid outed that she'd had

2:53

this child. They since reconciled

2:55

but what a thing to be

2:57

exposed to the public. A

2:59

series of toxic sometimes,

3:02

chaotic certainly romantic

3:04

relationships that I think got undue

3:06

attention often and all through it

3:09

Joni is writing countless

3:11

iconic songs in the folk

3:13

pop tradition. From both sides

3:16

now, to big yellow taxi.

3:36

Today we're going to zero in on

3:38

what many people believe to be Mitchell's

3:41

greatest album, Blue. We're going to start

3:43

our conversation by speaking with David Yaffey,

3:45

author of the biography Reckless Daughter, a

3:47

portrait of Joni Mitchell. That book was

3:49

released in 2017 and details Joni's life,

3:52

career and music. David, welcome to the

3:54

show. Thank you so much for having

3:56

me. For the youngins out there, David.

3:58

Who don't know. give us the

4:00

capsule biography, this young woman from Canada and how

4:02

she set the world on fire or started to

4:05

in the music world. It's

4:07

interesting because usually when

4:10

someone is a writer, when someone is a musician,

4:12

they have idols that they want

4:14

to emulate and that didn't happen

4:17

with Joni, not really. She

4:19

had people that she knew how to imitate but she

4:21

didn't idolize them. So she's

4:23

an unusual case that she's a great artist

4:25

who didn't have somebody that she tried to

4:27

emulate first. Do you think this is part

4:29

of growing up sort of remotely? Well

4:32

that's part of it. She did grow up

4:34

in this place that Margaret Atwood described as

4:36

a blank space on global culture. I mean

4:39

it was very isolated, it was very remote,

4:42

her family didn't have money, she didn't travel

4:44

really. So she just had

4:46

that open sky in her creativity, she didn't

4:48

have exposure to much. But

4:50

she said she didn't grow up playing air guitar

4:52

in the mirror or anything like that. She

4:55

thought of herself as a visual artist but really on

4:57

a practical level she thought that she probably ended up

4:59

working in the fashion industry and that this folk revival

5:02

was a fad and it would go on for a

5:04

few years and it would die out and then she

5:06

would do something else. Something

5:28

that set her off from the other children was

5:30

when she got polio at age 10 and

5:34

she was taken to this polio colony and

5:37

her father never visited, her mother

5:39

visited once with the mask on. The six

5:42

months go by, she gets her legs back and

5:45

suddenly she's no longer the first one picked for teams.

5:48

You know and she had thought of herself as an

5:51

athlete, she kind of defined herself through that you know

5:53

and suddenly her sense of identity was gone and

5:55

so she started to turn inward

5:58

and she started to find herself as a nerd. as

6:00

a visual artist, the kid who could draw

6:02

the best dog house, that kind of thing. And

6:05

all she really needed was just to go

6:07

off in nature somewhere, go off in the

6:09

woods and be creative.

6:12

And that was how she got through. And then

6:14

she goes to art school. She doesn't have a scholarship. And

6:18

so nobody's really treating her like she's special. So

6:20

this arty kid, it seems like

6:22

almost a little daydreamy as

6:25

a teenager, figures out

6:27

how to play guitar and basically invents

6:29

an entire new style with the open

6:31

tunings. Fifty

6:43

open tunings by the end of their career as

6:45

their career is winding down. This

6:48

incredible method of approaching this

6:50

instrument with an immaculate voice

6:52

to go with it. And

6:54

then this incredible songwriting acumen on top

6:56

of it all apparently self-taught. Right? I

6:59

mean what was... And she didn't know that would happen. And

7:02

David, we mentioned it earlier, but she's in

7:04

college at art school. She gets pregnant during

7:06

her sophomore year. She gives the baby up

7:09

for adoption. This affected her

7:11

very deeply. Where is she mentally

7:13

at this point? How do you think it was reflected

7:15

in her music? That's right. And

7:17

she's living in a very, very cheap rooming

7:19

house. She's completely broke. I mean she has

7:22

the money that she's making from full gigs

7:24

with them and she starts to show too

7:26

much. She can't perform anymore. And

7:28

so she's really... You know, like her neighbors are taking

7:30

pity on her and giving her fruit and stuff like

7:33

that. I mean she's really, really broke.

7:35

So she gives birth, February 19th, 1965. It's

7:39

one of those things where like it's a

7:41

situation where someone is pent up and

7:44

can't say what she's thinking and

7:46

can't say what she's feeling and

7:49

has to keep a big, big

7:51

secret about the source of it all.

7:55

And then it comes out in a sublimated way

7:57

through these beautiful songs. And

8:03

so because

8:08

she was hiding this

8:10

shame and

8:12

because she

8:30

had this grief of giving up her daughter, the first

8:33

song that she ever writes is on the train.

8:36

She's with the guy who got her pregnant,

8:38

this guy named Brad MacMath, who took off

8:40

soon after. They go on

8:42

this fortunate hour train ride to Toronto. And

8:45

so she hadn't written any songs. She was just

8:47

doing traditional folk songs. She was singing the songs

8:49

that John Bayez and Judy Collins were singing. She

8:51

was singing songs of its child ballad. You

8:54

know, Nancy Whiskey. So

9:04

she's on the train and she starts to

9:06

write this beautiful song called Day After Day. She

9:08

never records it. But you

9:11

can hear it on YouTube. There's a demo of it. She's

9:27

got

9:33

a triadic folk horn that she got away

9:35

from pretty quickly. It's

9:37

about a damsel in distress who's waiting for

9:39

a hero on a horse

9:42

to come and save her. But she doesn't

9:44

think that's going to happen. So that's the sadness of

9:46

the song. It's a beautiful song and it's amazing. It's

9:48

her first try. And she

9:51

didn't think it was good enough to record probably because it

9:53

was too derivative. Very

9:55

impressive for her first try. And then the

9:57

second song she writes becomes a minor on

10:00

the country charts. And that song is um,

10:02

rich for going. Yeah, which one is

10:04

that? Sorry, my old one. You guys

10:06

are second-side. So

10:30

let's fast forward a bit. Joni goes on to record

10:32

her first three albums by 1970. She's won a Grammy,

10:36

garnered a large fan base, found

10:38

commercial success, and this is right

10:40

before she starts recording her fourth

10:42

album, the record we're focusing on

10:45

today, Blue. How did she

10:47

handle this? Since stardom and being famous wasn't

10:49

really something she was looking for. You go

10:51

into it, you hope that you make it,

10:53

and then there's no exit strategy. Right. That's

10:55

right. That always in

10:57

Joni's case, because her work was so

10:59

personal, she didn't have

11:02

a way of

11:05

creating the kind of barrier that probably you

11:07

would need to have a healthy

11:09

attitude toward it. I mean, when you

11:11

think about, for example, the way Dylan was in 66

11:13

when he was so vulnerable, and you could see

11:15

why he couldn't handle it and why he had to go off the

11:17

road for eight years. And then

11:20

you see him after that, and you see that

11:22

he kind of creates this persona that distances himself

11:24

a little bit and allows him to function

11:27

in a way because there's a

11:29

barrier between him and the audience. And I

11:31

feel like Joni never really

11:33

got that. Joni was always

11:35

herself. So

11:55

that work is intimate in every

11:57

way. And so I think that

11:59

when she's vulnerable, vulnerable, it brought

12:01

on something that

12:04

she thought of as like she said

12:06

well people in the West might call it a nervous

12:08

breakdown but I thought of it more as a shamanistic

12:11

breakthrough. A shamanistic breakthrough, that's

12:13

how she thought of it. So

12:16

she wanted to you know she

12:18

announced a retirement in 1970 and she went to live in a

12:23

cave in Greece. Was

12:26

it literally a cave? Did you get to the bottom

12:28

of that in Greece? She's literally living in a rock

12:30

hole. Yes, yes. She was

12:32

with this girl named Joellen and she

12:34

shared she was living. Yeah, it was

12:36

a fashionable place to do it. Like a lot

12:38

of hippies were hanging out there. And

12:43

then of course it was there that this girl

12:45

Joellen Lapidus designed a dulcimer for her that

12:48

she ended up recording with

12:50

on a blue. She did Q-Sieve on that dulcimer.

12:54

Right. Yeah, right. In

13:00

California also, I don't see them. She

13:02

was engaged to Graham Nash. They

13:04

were living together in Laurel Canyon

13:06

on that house on the lookout

13:08

mountain. Which I've been in

13:10

the house. It's a pretty modest house for rock stars

13:13

to live in. It looked like a place that two

13:15

graduate students would be sharing really. She

13:17

was making money but I just don't think she

13:19

knew what that was or how to deal with

13:21

it or anything. She was

13:23

just thinking about being creative

13:26

and doing what she wanted and dropping

13:28

acid when she wanted to and whatever. Well

13:31

there's that fascinating interview she gives

13:33

to Cameron Crowe about that

13:36

point in her life. I

13:38

came to a turning point, the terrible opportunity

13:40

people are given in their lives, the day

13:42

they discovered to the tips of their toes

13:44

that they're a-holes. What

13:48

is she talking about? She

13:50

said that she could look at people

13:52

and read into them and read into

13:55

their souls. It

13:57

was so overwhelming to her that she would be at the

13:59

supermarket. And she was- He somebody so and shoot

14:01

cry. The. And that

14:03

that the very thing that she was doing and

14:05

blue which terrified some people and which. Facade

14:08

it others was. That.

14:10

She was doing that with her listeners, right?

14:13

because that quote is in relation to her

14:15

room for being where she's at when she's

14:17

writing and recording. Blue, Yes, but but I

14:19

think we're that when you hear, for example,

14:22

If it had a track and blew. It

14:41

all. D

14:47

V. D

14:51

C. Handed. And

14:54

so beautifully to about this. Melancholy.

14:57

That she's describing and the fact that she's

14:59

using a color to describe it as some

15:01

burton because he. Used

15:03

synesthesia as she thought like a

15:05

visual artist enough you know her

15:08

parents. Her father was. Colorblind.

15:12

Her mother was also. She thought

15:14

color blind whereas see was color

15:16

acute to part of it was

15:19

responding to. Her. Parents. And.

15:21

Thing: I can see things that you can't see.

15:25

You. Don't eat. You didn't know what you were doing

15:27

when you are raising me because he couldn't see. I

15:29

can see is. Right. And

15:31

so when she says blue it

15:33

means a lot. It's an emotion.

15:36

If the color. Is. Tied to

15:39

the Blues. You.

15:41

Know she'll have kind of blue. That.

15:43

Was probably in the mix there by was

15:45

very poetic writing she wasn't as she wasn't

15:47

being super literal as he gets. Part of

15:50

the charm of the record is that. People

15:53

want to read all his stuff into it, but

15:55

there's also a universal quality to it that allows

15:57

anybody to see themselves in and if they want

15:59

to. I'm that's true. And I

16:01

called the Joni Mitchell effect because. She's

16:04

hiding in plain he. Reckons.

16:16

Daughter: a portrait of Joni Mitchell. As

16:20

you know this very Nineteen seventy

16:22

ah, a habit of the music

16:25

world in particular. but life in

16:27

general of of are you know

16:29

framing a woman's talents and success

16:32

and career with the men in

16:34

her life. So as biographer you're

16:36

telling the story of making Blue,

16:39

Writing blue, Recording Blue and you

16:41

can't ignore. You know there's the

16:44

Graham Nash relationship has unraveled. The

16:46

time in Crete living in the

16:48

caves degrees. there's a relationship with

16:50

her as a waiter and then

16:52

James Taylor is in the wings

16:54

and this romance there is a

16:56

peace corps activists. Who was a

16:58

cook named Carry Raddatz? Carry the song. And

17:01

and and then Leonard Cohen is in there

17:03

too because a case of use is really.

17:05

About Leonard Islam I mean to the extent

17:07

that any song is about anybody, so think

17:10

it was also I think just from what

17:12

additional context jeremy Just to add to that

17:14

is that the way the record was perceived

17:16

around that time Rolling Stone did a whole

17:18

section about who Joni Mitchell had slept with

17:20

around the time as record came out, which

17:23

to me kind of like okay that is

17:25

a typical. Male. Response: Radio

17:27

a record by a woman to frame it

17:29

in terms of who she'd slept with as

17:31

opposed to a new generation, the other generation

17:33

of men. and that. I guess what I

17:35

would say is that her experience, his or

17:37

her, is just in the same way. The

17:40

Bob Jones experiences are hesitant. Leonard Cohen's experiences,

17:42

or his or John Lennon's or whoever else

17:44

you want to think of as being in

17:46

the peer group of Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon.

17:48

be right about their life. They write about.

17:51

Their love stay right about their sex life, the right

17:53

about what they do and that's their prerogative to do.

17:55

It is artists and nobody's going to question it and

17:57

just as never she question and if your journey. Ritual

18:00

or anybody else. At. Right? Every

18:02

base. Everybody's life is up for grabs

18:04

when you're an artist. so she's an

18:06

artist. But I also think that. The

18:08

experiences or less important than than the fact

18:11

that they happened to Joni Mitchell and that

18:13

Joni Mitchell than has this way of. Articulating.

18:16

It says this way of interpreting. It says

18:18

this way of expressing. Her

18:20

reaction to things that happened to her. And.

18:23

So as not very remarkable to

18:25

you know have of a love

18:27

life have breakups yes some of

18:29

those people that see where was

18:32

intimate with were famous but. That's

18:34

pretty typical Timothy Think about it because people.

18:36

they often hook up with people that thrown

18:39

same field with what we're saying, know if

18:41

you remove all of that context of who

18:43

it was specifically that she may or may

18:45

not have been writing about it. Still, A

18:48

masterpiece. It's a masterpiece been. In fact

18:50

I think that if you to take

18:53

it for what it should be then

18:55

it It is about intimacy mean that's

18:57

part of the store and it out

18:59

at relationships I think it's artificial to

19:01

remove it from it's intimate contact because

19:03

that's the point. You

19:19

know David, you use the word intimacy

19:21

And I think it said a fascinating

19:23

once and now my rock critics zero

19:25

Lester Bangs set of blue that it's

19:28

a record did said that's too intimate.

19:30

I almost feel like a boy year

19:32

as a man's listening to Blew. It

19:35

makes me uncomfortable. Does. That make

19:37

sense. Oh yeah, no I think she wanted

19:39

because she was feeling uncomfortable herself. And

19:41

so I think I think this time with

19:43

us effect on it. I mean I think you

19:46

meant to confront people other should see did

19:48

so and and dulcet tones. But. She

19:50

did. I. Mean the last time I

19:52

said richard. Is. A confrontation for

19:54

sure in our our metics meet

19:56

the same fate Sunday. That.

20:00

that is meant to make people uncomfortable or though

20:02

of course it's with the in a beautiful voice

20:04

and. And.

20:24

It's it's it's. a combination

20:27

of the lyric, right in

20:29

the melody, writing, the chords,

20:32

The. Rhythms. With.

20:35

These. trees, These

20:37

these and summit and often cockroaches. To be

20:39

fair about this record, by the way, and

20:42

I think I said this in the book.

20:44

That blue was maybe a sixty percent

20:46

moping record and forty percent party record.

20:49

Yeah. Because. Some of the songs

20:51

are actually joyous and pittman people thought of a

20:53

blue. The thing about of this grim stuff that

20:55

you have carry which is a very as a

20:58

paypal song and. And. Roll.

21:18

Off California. How funny and

21:20

sweet! Lucidity

21:28

leader. It's

21:39

interesting because like. You

21:42

know see suit she wasn't my girl.

21:44

Janis Joplin I mean just Job On

21:46

had this kind of raw reality that

21:48

she was taking it to a it

21:50

was something that in a lead to.

21:53

Later Patti Smith and whoever else you want

21:55

to St. Louis to send a Williams bus

21:57

fare. I'm in a certain kind of agree.

22:01

Quality. That and that Joanie herself the

22:03

kind of have an inner and a later and

22:05

furnished for life. Bet. On Blu

22:07

everything is so you phoniness even when

22:09

she's talking about the darkest England blues

22:11

as beautiful beautiful song like while it's

22:14

it's about losing yourself and and descending

22:16

that could be in a the heroin

22:18

that James Taylor was hooked on. It

22:20

could be to stay in the dark

22:22

his death of pace of trying to

22:24

hide in the cloud mark on. The

22:43

album I'm especially for. If he is he

22:45

go to the blue the sounds and will

22:47

likely like. Last time I saw some richer

22:50

like. It's just

22:52

a feminist is where the to spend a lot but

22:54

it's to so on us. And but

22:56

what's remarkable is that a lot of

22:58

things can. be honest. Be honest, he

23:01

could. Write. To.

23:03

Blue as unflinchingly honest. and it's

23:05

as thing of beauty. Yeah.

23:08

And so I mean it. And maybe that

23:11

makes people uncomfortable. Planning is confusing to to

23:13

man because I think of the emotions that

23:15

she's talking about. A lotta guys really are

23:17

uncomfortable dealing with those. I'm not forget not

23:19

just Joni Mitchell, but just talking to women

23:22

in this way in general and for lot

23:24

of men is very difficult. and I know

23:26

a lot of women who really relate to

23:28

this record because. He

23:30

sees expressing what they would like to

23:32

say or are feeling but can't articulate

23:35

necessarily. Are ya an interesting split? The

23:37

way is interesting. A lot of male

23:39

critics review this record at the time,

23:41

but since then we've seen a lot

23:43

of women charming and on the record.

23:46

You know as their voices become more

23:48

heard in our media and us, I

23:50

think they're the ones that are really

23:52

champions record l Always. Oh

23:54

yeah, and and them. That.

23:58

Am in listening to it. Any

24:00

time, and in the effort in the New millennium

24:02

or what on since the nineties now it's it's

24:04

it. It's a different experience and listening to it

24:07

in Nineteen Seventy One and also about like why

24:09

it wasn't that well received when it came out.

24:12

A. Was not an instant big seller when it

24:14

came out. It took a long time to become

24:16

a biggest seller. And a lot of

24:18

that was like in the nineties. Yeah, really? An

24:21

end when the whole sensibility changed and when you could

24:23

be a different kind of a woman. I think like

24:25

Patti Smith? Like really. Shook. A lot

24:27

of people up and. I'm. Sort

24:30

of move the needle on all the with you

24:32

could express yourself. As a woman, Talking

24:36

Yes author of the biography Reckless Daughter

24:38

Portrait of Joni Mitchell David thanks for

24:40

coming unsound opinions. Thanks for having me

24:42

and Sensors as a stimulating conversation After

24:45

a short break will continue our discussion

24:47

of Joni Mitchell's Blue. Like talking to

24:49

music critic Lindsay Zola. ads about Blues

24:52

Impact. Later will share some of our

24:54

favorite tracks from that record. Set in

24:56

a minute, Unsound. Have Been is. Sound.

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were back this week. We're talking about

27:43

the Nineteen Seventy One album Blue by

27:45

Joni Mitchell. Know earlier in the show

27:47

we discuss the context of the record

27:49

and some of the tracks and know

27:51

we want to explore the album's influenced

27:54

a lasting impact and legacy of Joni

27:56

Mitchell today. Here to talk about his

27:58

music writer and critic owns his. Lads

28:00

Lindsay welcome his own opinions. Thank you

28:02

for having the hey you wrote this

28:05

brilliant piece fear of a female Genius

28:07

about Joni Mitchell and we thought you'd

28:09

be perfect voice to bring in the

28:11

this conversation as we look at the

28:14

Legacy of Blue Reversible that's brilliant title

28:16

and a brilliant phrase you use throughout

28:18

the peace. Tell. Us

28:21

what you're thinking of when you say

28:23

there's a fear of Joni Mitchell's female

28:25

genius. Yeah. I think that

28:27

there are just so few examples.

28:29

In pop culture as women

28:32

who is. Lived

28:34

and had careers and behaves like

28:36

men who we call geniuses. Obviously

28:38

I'm a huge fan of her

28:40

music, but I am. Fascinated by

28:42

the way. That she's moved

28:44

through the culture and at

28:46

each stop. And it's. Decade

28:49

and Era kind. Of shown us

28:51

what the resistance was to a

28:53

woman living and working as freely

28:55

as she did. uncompromising brutal. When

28:58

someone you know and challenges her,

29:00

you know she takes no gov

29:02

from nobody. Never, Yes, absolutely. She

29:04

was so impervious to the criticism

29:07

she didn't ever let it. So

29:09

her down or change the way

29:11

she. Was doing business or soften her

29:14

in any way and I just think

29:16

she's so fascinating for that reason and

29:18

for some the other reasons. Too. Well.

29:45

When she was making Blue Shaven sort

29:47

of dropped out of the music industry

29:49

or for a while before that record

29:51

was made. She's a famous woman. She

29:53

had relationships with famous men, but she

29:55

was constantly being framed within these relationships

29:57

and incredibly condescending viewpoint of a great

29:59

artist. So what was the

30:01

context of blue being made and and

30:03

being as personal record as it was?

30:05

Was it because of the environment? The

30:08

that was sort of are being shaped

30:10

around her, the sort of the narrative

30:12

that she was being forced into a

30:14

sort of a the lone female artist

30:16

may be that was getting that sort

30:18

of recognition among a male dominated industry.

30:20

He I think there's always a sense

30:22

as journeys removing her south san. The

30:25

context she was in the story. That the

30:27

past was telling about her. but

30:29

it also is the moment after

30:31

she leaves Graham Nash. And

30:33

I talk about that and the peace

30:35

to that that seems like a really

30:37

tight as. Pivotal turning point

30:40

for her turning away from what

30:42

could have been perhaps as stable

30:44

and comfortable marriage. And says

30:47

fleeing and traveling

30:49

and. Living. As

30:51

lace as freedom and also kind

30:53

of questioning what she was leaving

30:55

behind by choosing that freedom over.

31:13

Your. A lot younger than me and

31:15

Greg's and I wasn't even there when Jamie

31:18

was murdered. Her musical isn't quite conscious. Yes,

31:20

you're younger woman. So how did you become

31:22

exposed to Joni Mitchell and what sort of

31:24

an impact at what point in your life

31:27

did the music have? There's. Something

31:29

really matrilineal about the way people get

31:31

into Joni Mitchell and and that allotted

31:33

Hammond. It is literally through their mothers.

31:36

And back in the days of like.

31:38

Burning Cds onto your computer. I one day

31:40

does with like I gotta See You It

31:42

Joni Mitchell's All of Our and I remember.

31:45

Sort of doing it. I ticket.

31:47

Sneakily. From my mom collection

31:50

and like put it back so

31:52

she didn't know that I was

31:54

laid on. I've the Aids dissenters

31:56

understand what Joni Mitchell was was

31:58

coming from a mostly on. You're.

32:00

Usually kind of. The older brother figure

32:02

passing down the call records and it's

32:04

not a very cool story to say.

32:06

Well I like zoning that are because

32:08

my mom excuse me to her under

32:10

the surface of the cannon that we

32:12

usually talk about of of men defining

32:14

and passing. You know what is the

32:16

great music? On to man, there's something

32:18

ten or subterranean about the way that

32:20

her music and passes from generation to

32:23

generation. I love that. I don't want

32:25

you to put you in a position

32:27

of speaking for all young women today,

32:29

Lindsay, but I am. so I'm. Going,

32:31

I'm going to be that spokesman for

32:34

two minutes and us are just gonna

32:36

record as a record that was made

32:38

you know in the early seventies having

32:40

an impact on a generation that was

32:42

born well after you know, join Mitchell's

32:45

heyday. Can still listen to this record

32:47

and say you know I, I relate

32:49

to it. I mean or or or

32:51

does it feel like a historical document

32:53

rather than a living breathing. Saying.

32:56

That speaks to a young women today. I

32:59

think the record at cells seals

33:01

like a living breathing thing that.

33:03

People. Have any is under can relate

33:05

to and and young people because this

33:08

sort of feels like a farewell says

33:10

the twenties record and that's you know

33:12

all is kind of as seem and

33:14

pop culture that's that's recurring sir out

33:16

wherever generous and as in his in

33:18

the twenty something plot at the time.

33:21

But I think that see I read

33:23

about this a bit that I think

33:25

Journey is so. Uncompromising.

33:27

And kind of prickly in some

33:30

ways that she's heard to reduce

33:32

into like. A guess or as

33:34

a sort of internet I kind in

33:36

the way that like I've heard something

33:38

about Stevie Nicks and I think she's

33:40

someone who the image as Tv next

33:43

has translate as a lot more seamlessly

33:45

on to like internet culture, youth culture

33:47

for whatever reason. but I think there's

33:49

sort of the image and then that

33:52

is the gateway to the actual music

33:54

sizing. but does artist the music is

33:56

it's really by thick Joanie. Though.

34:00

Harder to kind of package and

34:02

modify in that way. Once the

34:04

music reaches you, there's something about

34:06

it that feels timeless and feels

34:08

raw. And current. No matter.

34:11

What time? and what generous And you're

34:13

talking about. What? Would you say

34:15

to the the precocious or adventurous eighteen

34:17

year old music lovers to say or

34:20

it or that's great playlist She got

34:22

there. Now you gotta listen A Blue.

34:25

Words. Fail. To discuss like you

34:27

kind of just have to sneak that on. Simply.

34:30

Let's Move and I bring Butterfly

34:32

playlist else. Yeah, I think a

34:34

lot of those artists who would say

34:37

that they. Were influenced by her and and

34:39

maybe that's a place to start? With.

34:41

People that. That. Are unfamiliar with

34:43

her like there's this. You know? how can the

34:45

piece about. Her connection with prince

34:48

and how. Prince. As

34:50

a teen would go to the

34:52

attorney metal concerts and actually wrote

34:54

her fan mail like in the

34:56

Prince syntax with said out for

34:59

number and started a little on

35:01

you never know yeah. Yeah,

35:04

and I think that. You.

35:06

Know just the influence she had. Another. Artist

35:08

who then influence other people. It's all

35:11

this web as influence. The kind of

35:13

goes back to her through a lot

35:15

of forward thinking female artist Lindsay. What

35:17

about you mention Princes being one of

35:20

those artists who was a heavily influenced

35:22

by Joanie. What are some other

35:24

artist that you've come across in recent years of

35:26

people may not be aware of that. Sort of

35:28

mentioned Joni Mitchell as it is an influence on

35:30

the way they make music. I.

35:32

Think in modern analog to.

35:34

Her maybe see an apple either. I

35:37

think she had spoken about her influenced

35:39

by. Just in. The.

35:42

The vividness of the lyricism and the

35:45

kind of his. Uncompromising way. she

35:47

has conducted her public place and

35:49

kind of just plowed through whatever

35:51

people had to say about her

35:53

and and kept making albums that

35:55

went deeper and deeper into herself.

36:09

You may be one of the

36:11

closest. Artist, but she also

36:14

is not as prolific. His journey

36:16

was. it's fascinating to look at

36:18

that period in the late sixties.

36:21

Through the mid seventies I've just

36:23

both how much he was fighting

36:25

against every system that she came

36:28

across but was making so much

36:30

music and putting out a brilliant

36:32

record pretty much every year on.

36:34

I think learn Hell's there's as

36:37

comparison. To be made Their. Way.

36:49

But also someone who has not

36:51

put out a lot as music

36:53

has kind of i think part

36:55

of the that kind of quote

36:58

unquote female genius. Persona. Is.

37:01

It's really difficult to get.

37:03

Things. Through the system and to get.

37:06

To. Make the necessary compromises to

37:08

even release a record that

37:10

you're. Proud. Of so I

37:12

I do now that I'm thinking of it,

37:15

Just. The. Women that you could.

37:17

Compare her to. And

37:19

today. Aren't may be hit

37:22

having as easy a time. With.

37:24

Their record labels are with. Out

37:26

what that would prove that public perception yeah

37:28

I mean yeah you know any and Lauren

37:31

Hill I mean both paid see me when

37:33

price for verse for their but you know

37:35

were criticized in public in in in disturbing

37:38

ways You know it away. The Jody never

37:40

put up with. There's. A

37:42

lot of a lot. More scrutiny now.

37:44

a lot. More. Lenses.

37:47

To scrutinize women through I'm just on

37:49

the internet and and with the way

37:51

that the news cycle kind of works,

37:54

I I do think it might be

37:56

harder and some ways to to be

37:58

a woman like Tony. Today

38:01

I'm. But. I also

38:03

I think. There's this.

38:05

I'm hoping that. The

38:07

the floodgates are. Starting.

38:09

To at least if not open week

38:12

in and as in some way on

38:14

because I do think there's just a

38:16

much larger volume of. Similar.

38:18

Artists out there are there more visible?

38:21

You. Have to kind of dig around

38:23

to sign analogues on. In

38:26

and more modern context for her.

38:29

I think that's welfare of good points

38:31

or let me play devil's Advocate? Question

38:33

are lazy slob? the have an earpiece?

38:35

You know? fear of a female genius

38:38

arm? You know the problem When we

38:40

have something like the Npr list of

38:42

greatest albums ever made by women, why

38:44

aren't they just the greatest albums ever

38:46

made right? Why are they homes by

38:48

women's Y C of me? Email Jammy

38:50

Obviously she's be a her Arts or

38:53

is very much from a female perspective.

38:55

but are we limiting her by saying

38:57

of female genius as opposed to. Neil

39:00

Young. Genius: Bob Dylan. Genius:

39:02

Leonard Cohen. Genius. Just genius.

39:06

I think eventually, hopefully we'll get there.

39:08

I don't think we're there yet in.

39:10

The contrary inner C C

39:12

was number one on the

39:14

and Pr. Women's. Less

39:16

fat, I think that. The Rolling

39:18

Stone. Greatest. Albums of all

39:20

time. I think Blue was like. Number

39:23

Thirty. And that was the first one

39:25

by a woman. A reason that

39:27

she is really fascinating to me is and

39:29

just to look at. Her whole

39:31

story is that see. Sewage.

39:34

Birth. The limitations on women

39:36

at the time and also the

39:39

way that they were able to

39:41

be transcended. So I think that

39:43

focusing on you know a tuck

39:46

in the piece about her pregnancy

39:48

and and the adoption and to

39:50

says the way that that. Did

39:53

kind of weird on her throughout her

39:55

life that's and the way that that

39:58

was always kind of something. that was

40:00

Heather her. To. Reality more

40:02

than it did. I'm the man who

40:04

kind of behaved like geniuses or on

40:06

that they can leave. Their family is

40:08

a lot. More. Freely. Than.

40:11

A woman with able to at that

40:13

time signing. Looking at her in

40:15

that context. What does it mean

40:17

to be a female genius? Or their

40:19

inherent compromises in that that make it different

40:22

from a male one. And I think that.

40:24

Just. With maybe someday we'll get there were

40:27

there is not but I think it is in

40:29

that culture. We are unfortunately not

40:31

there yet. They're not enough

40:33

journeys. Even talking to

40:35

Lindsay Zola ads about Joni Mitchell. Thanks for

40:38

coming on the show Lindsay Think that any

40:40

when we come back gemini are going to

40:42

share some track that we think are important

40:44

to highlight from that album that in a

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41:51

We are back this week we're

41:53

doing a classic, our dissection of

41:56

Joni Mitchell's Blue, which came out

41:58

and nineteen seventy one and. Arguably

42:00

Mitchell's all this success. We're going to

42:02

share some of our favorite tracks now

42:04

and why. We think it is a

42:07

classic Out Greg you first do I

42:09

want to highlight to the track California,

42:11

which has some people think of is

42:13

one of the more optimistic songs on

42:15

the record. And that's it. is a

42:18

song about home or at least her

42:20

adopted home in California. Obviously she was

42:22

born in Canada. This was written as

42:24

part of in her European hiatus. She

42:27

basically dropped out of the music industry

42:29

for a number. Of months after her

42:31

first three and came out and made

42:33

her a star to just one. To

42:35

get away from everything including California she

42:38

went to to Europe and live like

42:40

a hippie for a while, but you

42:42

got homesick. See, I decided, you know.

42:44

A Even though I'm very disillusioned with

42:46

California and were an outlet on this

42:48

European lifestyle, I want to get back

42:50

home. The whole idea of coming home

42:53

was was a hopeful sentiment, but there's

42:55

also a C question at the heart

42:57

of the songs. a plaintive question that

42:59

I think. Is the key to

43:01

the album stat Line: will you

43:03

take me as I am? She's

43:06

speaking to California, to speaking to

43:08

America, to speaking to her fan

43:10

base, to speaking to the men

43:12

in her life. She's talking about.

43:15

You. Know I'm I'm this woman who

43:17

was independents is doing my thing on

43:19

my terms. Will you accept that? Because

43:21

if you can't I don't want a

43:23

partier and that that really is kind

43:26

of the impetus of of the Blue

43:28

L and Emancipatory album in many ways

43:30

with that question at the heart of

43:32

it and the same time the feeling

43:34

of Long express so beautifully. A later

43:37

in the song by a little subtle

43:39

touch a pedal steel guitar. From.

43:41

A sneaky Pete Klein out of

43:43

the Flying Burrito Brothers. The way

43:45

that pedal steel sort of was

43:47

through the atmosphere created by Jones

43:49

voice and her Appalachian dulcimer. I

43:52

think it's a beautiful songs but

43:54

with many many layers and and

43:56

a is a great example of

43:58

the multi layered a song. That

44:00

is the key to this am.

44:03

Very simple arrangements with many many

44:05

textures and feelings coursing through them.

44:07

California from Joni Mitchell's Blue. Saw.

44:17

Caesar to. The

44:29

movies he. And

44:39

that is California. What I think is

44:42

one of the key tracks from Joni

44:44

Mitchell's blue gem What have you got

44:46

Greg We have to have played Little

44:48

Green. You know we were talking about

44:50

this daughter that Joni Mitchell had when

44:52

she was a struggling college student and

44:54

folk in there had to give up

44:56

for adoption. You know that's in the

44:58

mid sixties. It wasn't until the mid

45:00

nineties when that part of her life

45:02

was exposed by the tabloid and she

45:04

subsequently a few years later I started

45:06

a relationship with that, the young woman,

45:08

our daughter. To Lauren did I'm

45:10

ah, you know I think one of

45:13

the sense that listeners male and female

45:15

been in particular the Mail Rock printing

45:17

establishment lays upon Blue is reading and

45:19

as strict autobiography at all times. The

45:21

reason I mention this this is obviously

45:24

a song written about her daughter Little

45:26

Green but ah, you know, nobody knew

45:28

about that and for a good twenty

45:30

five years. Yeah, I'll add. now that's

45:32

all anybody talks about in the context

45:35

of this song. But if we look

45:37

at the songs, one of those classic.

45:39

Weird. Joni Mitchell a guitar turning

45:41

You know of her own songs

45:43

and hoping g com you know

45:46

it We look at the lyrics.

45:48

it's about a longing in general.

45:50

It could be first heard as

45:52

longing for the seasons to change

45:54

from away from the cold and

45:57

into the spring. He could be

45:59

more specifically. The longing for any

46:01

parent ah in particular father or

46:03

I'd a father of a daughter.

46:05

So are you. You've got to

46:07

ah about a daughter, both both

46:09

being an obsessive love but also

46:11

Sunday she's going to leave You

46:13

can that's gonna leave a whole

46:15

You were talking about how much

46:17

longings and and sadness and an

46:19

emancipation runs throughout Blue. It's not

46:21

just in the romantic sense, it's

46:23

also about in in the sense

46:25

of childhood. And then I think

46:27

it's just a great songs about.

46:30

Hoping for something better? Period. You

46:32

don't need to know everything that

46:34

happened to Joni. It's part of

46:36

the context, but this is an

46:38

immortal songs because it stands without

46:40

any effects. Little Green by Joni

46:42

Mitchell on Sound Opinions. Joni

47:14

Mitchell Little Green on Sound Opinions grade

47:16

another song a highlight from Blow for

47:18

I liked I liked your choice of

47:20

Little greens him because I think it

47:22

all straits You know the the strength

47:24

of Joni songwriting because he wouldn't have

47:26

known it was about her daughter unless

47:28

you had inside information in right have

47:30

been about a many many situations at

47:32

the same time stink drawings very specifically

47:34

on the pain in her private life

47:36

to create a song that has universal

47:38

significance that I think many of the

47:40

songs on a Blue have that regard

47:43

to the color. Concessional Elm As a

47:45

completely misread what it's about. A great

47:47

example of that is the Song River.

47:49

You know it's amazing how this song

47:51

has become a Christmas standard, a holiday

47:53

standard. You can hear it at Starbucks

47:55

plane on the you know when you

47:57

go in for a coffee starting like

47:59

but. In November you know it's just

48:01

one of those things as gonna like

48:04

wallpaper now for the holidays and it

48:06

is in credibly sad song is almost

48:08

like a eulogy spears the Canadian girl

48:11

singing about skating away on a river

48:13

while she's in California, a place that

48:15

at the time she does not really

48:18

love and is kind of getting disgusted

48:20

by the key line for me i

48:22

wish I had a river river so

48:25

long I would teach my seat to

48:27

fly and the way her voice to

48:29

sort. Of flies off On that lasts

48:32

a syllables is so beautiful and heart

48:34

breaking up and then lands on. I

48:36

made my baby cry. This whole notion

48:38

of i've just gone through this this

48:41

relationship that ended terribly. I miss my

48:43

home of origin. I miss my childhood

48:45

A thinking about all these things coursing

48:47

through the song and doing it beautifully

48:50

with the framing device. A Jingle Bells

48:52

I think that you have people now.

48:54

It's a holiday songs but it's played

48:56

so sadly and mournfully and is. He

48:59

starts off st. Nina with the kind

49:01

of a plaintive tone to those chords.

49:03

And then at the end it's It's

49:05

devastatingly so. Slow was almost like a

49:07

eulogy. So it's a beautiful and yet

49:09

heartbreaking song that I think asteroids. That's

49:11

the multitude of emotions it that are

49:13

coursing through. or the Blue Album Stairs

49:15

River From To Me Mission Unsound, Attendance.

49:46

River from Joni Mitchell. you've got

49:49

one more great blue Track Force

49:51

gym. Ah taste of you Greg

49:53

Ah the Mitchell Ah obsessive who

49:56

I think often are obsessing and

49:58

not listening. Ah debate. This

50:00

song about her romantic split from

50:02

Graham Nash or is it about

50:04

Leonard Cohen new? I? you know,

50:06

I don't care. I hit her

50:08

on her that's shown his life.

50:10

that's not her arse. What is

50:12

brilliant about this arts is that

50:14

we've all had a case of

50:16

someone that is both good for

50:18

us and bad for us. Everybody

50:20

you know obligatory rock critic quotes

50:22

on a lonely painter i live

50:24

in a box paints okay. it's

50:26

but to meet the the lines

50:28

before that you know. You are

50:30

in my blood like holy wind eaten

50:32

so bitter and so sweet. I could

50:34

drink a case of you and I'd

50:36

still be on my feet as everything

50:38

I love about your number. what's to

50:40

stop his nails You know enemies new

50:43

are not going to drink me under

50:45

the table aka tell you first right?

50:47

This is number two the play on

50:49

a case or case of you. Like

50:51

a bad case of the flu in

50:53

ah but also out out of our

50:55

case of you I can't get enough

50:57

my love you But I'm also a

50:59

broken by this relationship. As we end

51:01

this, all of these feelings are in

51:03

campus and you know a lot of

51:05

sense. We talk about artists who cover

51:07

something. I think it's a testament when

51:09

a wide array of incredible talents come

51:12

to the same song for inspiration and

51:14

make it their own story. A Most

51:16

Princess Diana, Krall, Kd Lang all of

51:18

them snub done versions of a case

51:20

of You Are I think that they

51:23

are all hearing something in it are

51:25

different and bringing something of their own.

51:27

And you know, so is everyone who

51:29

really listens. To and Loves Blue A

51:31

Taste of You Again Images and Saturday.

52:03

He's a view of by Joni

52:06

Mitchell. Wrapping up are classic album

52:08

dissection The for Nineteen Seventy One

52:10

Out Blue and now we wanna

52:12

hear from You. Leave us a

52:14

message on our website Sound opinions.org

52:16

with your thoughts Mister Caught what

52:18

is on the show next week

52:20

Next week Jim We talk to

52:22

I Robbins, one of our heroes

52:24

and the editor and writer for

52:26

Trouser Press Aide and Essential Music

52:28

Magazine. He's put on a chronicle

52:30

of some of the magazines best

52:32

writing. And don't forget to

52:34

check out our bonus podcast Speed

52:36

wherever you get your part. Yes,

52:38

Sound Opinions is produced by Andrew,

52:41

Gil, Alex Claymore and Interest so

52:43

see producer Soul Delgaudio are Columbia

52:45

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