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views expressed on this episode as with all episodes of

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Sounds Like a Cult are solely host

1:58

opinions and quoted allegations. The

2:00

content here should not be taken as indisputable

2:02

fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

2:04

You never know where your mental state will

2:06

be. Like, you don't know how deep you'll

2:09

go, and you won't even realize it. Like,

2:11

I think that's why it's considered a cult,

2:13

right? Like, you could call it a cult.

2:15

It's because you don't know how psychologically or

2:18

even financially deep you'll be

2:20

when it comes to getting into K-pop. I

2:22

know. I am stressed even talking about it.

2:25

Yeah. This

2:28

is Sounds Like a Cult, a show

2:30

about the modern-day cults we all follow.

2:32

I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of

2:34

the books, Cultish, the language of fanaticism,

2:36

and the forthcoming The Age of Magical

2:39

Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're

2:41

going to hear about a different group

2:43

or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from

2:45

MLMs to momfluencers, to try and answer

2:48

the big questions. This group

2:50

sounds like a cult, but is it really?

2:59

Uh-oh. Is it a little bit like

3:01

a watch your back, or a get the fuck

3:03

out little cult? Oh,

3:05

the word cult is up

3:08

to interpretation. Let me reiterate.

3:10

The word cult is up

3:12

to interpretation. When I say

3:15

K-pop is a cult-followed industry,

3:17

don't come for me, don't

3:19

come for my neck. I

3:23

sing awkwardly when I'm scared. I'm

3:26

scared today because the cult

3:28

of the week is K-pop, and

3:30

those fans, they are intense. They

3:32

care a lot. I

3:35

don't even sound as nervous when I talk about

3:37

Scientology. Let me set the scene. I have never

3:40

had a more difficult time finding a guest host

3:42

for an episode of Sounds Like a Cult than

3:45

I had for this episode. I

3:47

was like shooting off DMs

3:50

by the dozen, contacting K-pop

3:52

reporters, K-pop podcast hosts, K-pop

3:55

documentary filmmakers. Oh my god,

3:57

I was emailing Stacey

3:59

on. and pop culture professors at

4:02

literal universities, people who don't even

4:04

have Twitter or Instagram, being like,

4:06

will anyone, will anyone

4:08

be brave, be brave. We don't even

4:11

have to be roasty. We don't even

4:13

have to call K-pop a cult. I

4:15

mean, sort of. Anyway, everyone was nervous.

4:17

Everyone was backpedaling. Everybody was circumventing. Or

4:20

I was just getting ghosted. It was

4:22

nuts. But I finally found someone very,

4:24

very brave to join me for today's

4:27

analysis, who got the vibes, who was

4:29

like, t-he-he-he-he, yes, I am

4:31

a K-pop stan, but I also

4:33

acknowledge it can be pretty culty.

4:35

And I'm down to discuss that

4:37

with you. Stick around,

4:39

because we're gonna get into it

4:41

with my very special guest, Lai

4:43

Francis, who is a journalist, a

4:45

producer. She writes about music and

4:48

primarily about K-pop. So she is very educated

4:50

in the space. I'm not.

4:52

See, I'm already scared, because I

4:54

know just from perusing the

4:57

interwebs about K-pop culture, that

5:00

she who dares even

5:03

breathe the word K-pop

5:05

without having spent 10

5:07

years in this quote unquote cult, and I

5:10

mean that in a cute way, you

5:12

need to hide your kids, hide your wife, lock

5:14

your door, because the stans will come for you.

5:16

Hide your kids, hide your wife. And

5:19

I get that. Listen, I have said

5:21

this before on this show. I wish

5:23

I cared about something in this world

5:26

as much as stans care about the

5:28

artist that they love. I fear them,

5:30

I respect them, and that fear is

5:32

what tells me that K-pop is something

5:35

that needs to be covered on this

5:37

podcast. It's also been a highly requested

5:39

topic for years. We've covered music fandoms

5:41

before on this podcast, the Cult of

5:43

Taylor Swift. Obviously, we had a whole

5:46

different episode on the Cult of Celebrity

5:48

Stans. K-pop is a completely

5:50

different beast. It operates in a completely

5:52

different way to the American music industry,

5:55

and the Cult of the Fandoms are

5:57

an entirely different culture from American music.

6:00

The Adams as well. I wouldn't dare speak

6:02

with authority on the subject matter. lie. Francis

6:04

is going to us understand K Pop? It

6:06

sounds like a cold, but is it really?

6:08

And if so, how about is it? But

6:10

first, before we welcome her the show, I

6:13

wanted to give a little bit of background

6:15

for those who love maybe only been legally

6:17

exposed to the cult of K Pop. If

6:19

you're already an expert, come back and five

6:21

minutes. go listen to like a Bts song

6:24

and have this will take long. This little

6:26

bit of explanation is just to get my

6:28

outsiders a little bit more on. The inside

6:30

of the cult to keep. Should

6:36

fear for me. Into the Italy

6:38

is a music genre industries

6:40

that has experienced some of

6:42

the most explosive growth the

6:44

music industry has ever seen.

6:47

For a genre, Tape hop

6:49

could be described as a

6:51

sort of maximalist. Dreamland is

6:53

filled with vibrant colors, high

6:55

concept performances, melody so classy

6:57

they will haunt you in

6:59

your sleep, Choreography so snatched

7:01

no one is missing a

7:03

damn Be larger than life

7:05

persona as it's like the

7:07

most. Optimized form of pop

7:09

you could imagine. Over the last

7:11

decade it has gained massive global

7:13

recognition that has elevated T Pop

7:16

Idols as they're called okay already

7:18

using the language of religion that

7:20

has elevated to Keep Up Idols

7:23

to God like status for better

7:25

and for worse. According to a

7:27

Vox piece titled how Keep Up

7:30

Became A global Phenomenon keeps rise

7:32

to the. Local Dumb and

7:34

dumber And dumber. Sorry.

7:37

doing my own sound effects can

7:39

be traced back to ninety ninety

7:41

two my birth year hello and

7:43

it's kind of nuts how rigid

7:45

lee's hierarchical and ritualistic ends dogmatic

7:48

the cult of keep hop became

7:50

so quick leads this lox article

7:52

goes on to explain that keep

7:54

up idols are inducted very early

7:57

on around only aged ten eleven

7:59

or twelve Aspiring idols, literal

8:01

children, will go through these

8:03

highly competitive auditions. And

8:06

from there, music studios will

8:08

induct talented all-star kids into

8:10

the whole K-pop regime.

8:13

K-pop then takes over these kids'

8:16

entire life. From a very young

8:18

age, they learn how to modify

8:20

their public behavior and prepare for

8:23

a life as a pop star.

8:26

It almost reminds me of the cult of the

8:28

royal family, which of course you're born into or

8:30

you marry into. But there

8:32

are such extraordinary protocols that you

8:34

can't deviate from or everything could

8:37

crumble down around you. These

8:39

K-pop trainees spend hours in

8:41

daily rehearsals. Some kids

8:44

gain fan followings before they

8:46

even officially debut. And

8:48

this is a piece of terminology that I

8:50

didn't even know until I started looking into

8:53

this topic. I learned a whole roster of

8:55

vocabulary terms for the cult of K-pop. And

8:57

then when these kids are old enough, if

8:59

they're one of the lucky,

9:01

lucky, lucky, chosen, enlightened few,

9:04

studios will place them into an idol group

9:06

or sometimes they'll even launch them as a

9:08

solo artist. As you

9:11

can imagine, these studios become breeding

9:13

grounds for predatory behavior and harassment

9:15

from studio executives. I learned about

9:17

this in this Vox piece as

9:20

well. Even to the

9:22

point where in 2017, multiple

9:24

K-pop studios agreed to contract

9:26

reform because exploitation and harassment

9:28

was getting so egregious. And

9:31

yet there is still so much

9:33

cultish harm and psychological turmoil that

9:35

goes on. Some K-pop stars have

9:38

even gone so far as to

9:40

take their own life due to

9:42

a complex combination of extremely culty

9:44

factors, including the pressures of studio

9:47

culture in combination with frankly impossible

9:49

expectations from fans. Death

9:52

is like kind of as bad as it

9:54

gets in terms of worst case scenarios for

9:56

a cult and yet the

9:58

intense hyper-isolating. life

10:00

of a K-pop idol is coveted

10:03

by thousands upon thousands of teens

10:05

and preteens. And again, the phenomenon

10:07

has extended globally. According to a

10:10

piece in Yahoo Finance in 2023,

10:12

it was reported that the K-pop

10:14

industry was worth a whopping 8.1

10:17

billion dollars. According

10:19

to an NPR feature with the

10:22

host of K-pop streaming Vivienne Yoon,

10:24

these management and entertainment labels and

10:26

companies are like setting out to

10:29

take over the world to the

10:31

point that they'll even cast non-Korean

10:33

idols in K-pop groups to make

10:36

them more appealing to whatever market

10:38

they're in. It's just the

10:40

kind of like can't stop, won't

10:42

stop opportunism that you see in

10:44

more destructive kinds of cults. And

10:47

like let me level with you, the reason why I

10:49

sound so fucking skittish as I explain all of this

10:52

is because of the cult of

10:54

the fandoms. I've learned

10:57

that K-pop stans exhibit

10:59

a level of dedication

11:01

and intensity that really

11:03

sets them apart. According

11:05

to another Vox article

11:07

titled A Beginner's Guide

11:09

to K-pop, some of the

11:11

most common, cozy aspects of

11:14

K-pop fan culture include the

11:16

intense, direct interactivity between idols

11:18

and their fans. The industry

11:20

puts incredible pressure, like unparalleled,

11:23

unprecedented pressure on K-pop groups

11:25

to chart amazingly well, to

11:27

build, to grow, to beat

11:29

out all the other groups

11:32

and that sense of warlike

11:34

fanaticism and competition extends to

11:36

the fan behavior naturally. K-pop

11:39

fan communities can be extremely competitive with

11:41

each other. Some fans pit

11:43

individual members of groups against

11:46

one another. Others campaign

11:48

for their favorite group to

11:50

receive better treatment from a studio if they

11:52

feel that the studio isn't giving the group

11:54

enough love. I Mean to

11:57

imagine fans being like so involved with

11:59

the business. This aspect of their

12:01

favorite entertainers is wild to me

12:03

and it's another reason why the

12:05

fandom here to be pretty intimidating

12:08

because the way that fanaticism manifests

12:10

on social media lends itself to

12:12

these kind of like self starting

12:14

crusades as fan seek out new

12:17

methods to help their favorite idol

12:19

group become obsessed. Crusades really is

12:21

the right word for it because

12:23

as certain findings demonstrate.in, South Korea,

12:26

much like in the U S,

12:28

the percentages of people who. Identify

12:30

as explicitly religious are declining. They

12:32

have to put their who sort

12:35

of lake cultish police somewhere and

12:37

the keep Up industry showing up

12:39

being like if you need a

12:41

cold we're right here now. This

12:43

atmosphere can be daunting to save

12:46

a lease, but of course, Keep

12:48

Hop provide people with incredible benefits

12:50

with identity meaning belonging ritual. During

12:52

the pandemic, there was an instance

12:55

when thousands of fans donated their

12:57

responded concert tickets to support Cold

12:59

and release. Your I believe

13:01

that cape hop fandom can be

13:03

a really transcendent sing at the

13:05

same time. It's called the is

13:07

that it's pair social so it

13:09

can be dangerous for the aisles.

13:11

I'm scared right now and for

13:14

that reason we have to ask

13:16

the question. This group sounds like

13:18

a second call how that is

13:20

it to help us answer that

13:22

question Today I am so excited

13:24

to welcome our very special again.

13:26

Keep up her third or. Expert.

13:29

Stand. Her son. Do

13:38

so much for joining. Are

13:40

having a rave is so exciting! i'm

13:42

already thing i thought thought about that

13:45

i think my senses soon a we'll

13:47

get along just fine off area of

13:49

musical amazon a mere trends ago get

13:51

before we get fully into it could

13:54

you please introduce yourself and your work

13:56

to our listeners and higher connected to

13:58

the cult the paper Oh, okay. Hi

14:00

everyone who's listening. I'm Lai

14:03

Francis and I've been covering

14:05

K-pop Since I graduated

14:07

college, but I actually started during the

14:09

days of tumblr which was like early

14:11

2000 pens Wow,

14:13

that sounds a long time ago.

14:16

It was it's so weird whenever

14:18

I hear someone's like yeah this

14:20

K-pop song came out 15

14:22

years ago. I'm like, no it didn't that came out

14:25

like eight years ago. I was like, no, no, no,

14:27

no I came out in 2007. I'm like, well damn

14:29

it The pandemic totally

14:31

do everyone off fully but

14:34

also trends move so much faster now

14:36

in Music and

14:38

otherwise that it's really really

14:40

hard to know how

14:42

a benchmark is marking time. Yes 1000%

14:45

I agree. So you've seen like

14:47

a full generation of K-pop I

14:50

want to ask though like when trying to

14:52

find a guest for this episode of sounds

14:54

like a cult Never had

14:56

a harder time. I have never

14:59

had more people be like, I

15:01

don't know I don't really want

15:03

to I don't think that it's right

15:06

for me to cover this Topic or

15:08

like I don't think it can be

15:10

covered really. Yes, like

15:12

I've never had such a hard time

15:14

I was surprised when you got

15:16

to me because I was like I have other

15:18

colleagues who are like just Probably

15:21

smarter than I am Honestly

15:24

like they've been in the game when as long

15:26

as I have but they're way more up there

15:28

than I I was surprised by

15:30

people's Trepidation what's your take on

15:32

that? Like why do you think that so

15:35

many people were reticent to talking about K-pop

15:37

in the context of cultishness even in a

15:39

light-hearted way? I think it's because

15:41

they just don't want to offend the fandom because

15:43

it's such a complex world when it comes

15:45

to K-pop It's like for us I

15:48

actually was talking to someone for their

15:50

thesis paper in college the other week

15:52

and It was a good angle

15:54

and people in my position

15:56

are in similar positions, especially covering K-pop

15:58

in a Western hemisphere that

16:01

there is pressure from the fans, pressure from

16:03

the label, pressures from the artists themselves, and

16:05

pressures from the publication that you may be

16:07

working with, and of course yourself as a

16:10

fan to professional. So I can see why

16:12

there's hesitancy, of course, but when

16:14

you see it on social media, K-pop stands

16:16

or everywhere, and when you have

16:18

that type of platform and you have those

16:20

followers and those readers and those dedicated

16:22

fans, it could be

16:25

quite intimidating to put yourself out there. But

16:28

for me, it's like I do this because, oh,

16:30

the backstory, I obviously

16:32

grew up as this Asian-American

16:34

girl with no role models.

16:36

There was Mulan, but she

16:39

is not real, right? We

16:41

know that. So I

16:43

was like, girl, if she was real, I

16:45

would be kicking ass everywhere.

16:47

But this is where

16:49

the fact is like I got into K-pop

16:51

because I ended up loving the

16:54

female soloist and the girl groups. And

16:56

when you think about K-pop, like the iconic

16:58

girl group you think of is either Girls'

17:00

Generation, 2NE1, Wonder Girls, which

17:02

are second generation icons and boa.

17:05

And I was like, okay, you know what? I like this. I

17:07

want to uplift these voices. I'm not

17:09

Korean myself, but I'm Filipino-American. But,

17:12

you know, just having this

17:14

catchy, good-hearted, fun music

17:16

with these great concepts, I

17:19

wanted to uplift these voices. And then after that, you

17:21

know, I just dove into everything else. So

17:24

as I was getting deeper and deeper into it, I

17:26

was like, you know what? Once I got into college,

17:28

I decided like, you know, I'll take up journalism. I'll

17:30

take up production. I want to actually go on this

17:32

path where I could try and be a platform

17:35

and share the voices of these

17:37

artists that are of Asian descent.

17:39

I think what you're getting at is

17:41

very interesting because from what I understand

17:44

as a total outsider, like I have

17:46

listened to K-pop, but I'm not in

17:48

the fandom. I've only like dipped a

17:50

toe in understanding it. I've watched like

17:52

a vice documentary and, you know, clicked

17:55

around the Internet. But it's

17:57

so true that like on the

17:59

outside, K-pop is... is so empowering

18:02

and wholesome. It's like as bubblegum

18:04

pop as it gets. And yet

18:06

under the surface, it's so fanatical.

18:09

And there's such a sort of

18:11

us versus them mentality sometimes and

18:13

it gets really intense and really

18:16

intimidating. And that juxtaposition

18:18

of like something so upbeat

18:21

and then something so sort of like

18:23

maybe dark and scary is

18:25

I think part of what

18:27

makes this cult so unique. So I'm

18:30

wondering this first off when I say the cult

18:32

of K-pop, like what comes to mind for you?

18:35

When I think of the cult of K-pop,

18:37

I call it the black hole of K-pop.

18:39

Cause once you dive into it, there's so

18:41

much involved when it comes to K-pop and

18:44

it actually is a really great expansion

18:46

of showing Korean culture. It all

18:49

starts through a catchy riff or

18:51

a dance challenge or someone looking

18:53

so fine in front of the

18:56

camera. It could be any of

18:58

those three and those are your entry

19:01

points. That's the hook. Yeah, you get

19:03

hooked from that. And then it makes you

19:05

wanna learn more because it's totally different

19:07

to the type of content that

19:09

we consume here in America

19:11

or elsewhere. So I think the cult

19:14

is through those entry points. Then after

19:16

that, you watch these reality shows that

19:18

feature them or these competition shows and

19:20

they show you the food, the language.

19:23

You kind of just dive into the

19:25

behaviors of what goes on in K-pop.

19:28

So what I'm understanding is I know it's

19:30

very different, but not

19:32

entirely dissimilar to the sort of like

19:34

cinematic universe that Taylor Swift has created.

19:37

This whole world that you can immerse

19:39

yourself in and that can really take

19:41

over like every hour of your entire

19:43

day if you let it. The universe

19:46

of K-pop or the black hole, as

19:48

you say, is so

19:50

limitless. It's so expansive. There's

19:52

so much to learn and

19:55

there are so many tentacles

19:57

to follow or other galaxies.

20:00

to explore that it really can occupy

20:02

all of your time. And there's probably

20:04

a hierarchy of fandom that develops there

20:06

because the people who've dedicated all of

20:09

their time and know the most could

20:12

potentially feel a sense of superiority

20:14

over those who know less, just

20:16

because of the sheer amount that

20:18

there is to know. Is that

20:20

accurate? Yeah, actually when I got into K-pop,

20:23

there wasn't really much of a presence for

20:25

social media yet. There was

20:27

Twitter. I was part of a

20:29

Girls Generation forum called Sociified. And

20:32

that was actually one of the

20:34

best ways to gather fans and

20:37

just like, you know, do projects, send

20:39

out fan letters and all that stuff.

20:42

And then once social media got involved,

20:44

it's like you create all these big

20:46

accounts that are either just doing translation

20:48

updates or doing photo updates. Like just

20:50

fan accounts that grow their own cult

20:53

followings kind of thing. Yeah, and

20:55

it's pretty crazy how these accounts

20:58

that actually don't have a face in them

21:00

but the member themselves under profile pics gain

21:02

massive amount of numbers just because they are

21:04

sharing that type of content. This is

21:07

so interesting and I like, oh my

21:09

God, I don't even know where to

21:11

begin because I have so many questions.

21:13

There's a lot to unpack here. There's

21:15

so much to unpack, but a lot

21:18

of fandoms have gotten more intense because

21:20

of social media. Oh yeah, for sure.

21:22

There was always fanaticism for like the

21:24

Beatles or the Grateful Dead. People felt

21:26

extremely emotionally spiritually connected to these music

21:29

artists. But something that I think prevented

21:31

them from getting

21:33

like toxicly culty was

21:35

because you were going to these

21:37

shows in person recognizing the humanity of

21:40

your fellow fans. So even if they

21:42

didn't know as much as you, even

21:44

if they had different opinions about different

21:46

artists or sects of the fandom as

21:48

you, you were sharing in this collective

21:51

experience of like worshiping the person on

21:53

stage. But because of the sheer size

21:55

of the K-pop world and because everyone

21:57

is so disconnected on social media. It

22:00

allows people to like notice the

22:02

differences in the different sects of

22:04

the fandom without that social glue

22:06

of connecting in person. And I

22:08

feel like that is a recipe

22:10

for making things intense and culty

22:13

in a bad way. Yeah, could

22:15

you talk about some of the

22:17

different sects that exist in

22:19

the K-pop fandom? And what

22:21

are like the main denominations,

22:23

would you say? There's a lot. But

22:26

to TLDR, because a lot of the

22:29

fans are so international and K-pop is

22:31

such a global way, a lot of

22:33

these fans are consuming the content that's

22:35

obviously available to them online. Now, a

22:38

good number of fans become so parasocial

22:40

with these artists because of just the

22:42

way that idols are being marketed. K-pop

22:45

idols themselves are being marketed

22:47

as someone's ideal type. So

22:50

that's why a lot of people tend to

22:52

kind of fall for these idols to

22:54

the point where it could be worshipy or you

22:57

know you have these fans casual fans like, oh

22:59

my god that's my son or like that's my

23:01

sister like you know just for fun. But there

23:03

are so many sects where it's like you have

23:05

the Saa Seng fans which is called

23:08

like stalker fans. These are the

23:10

extreme fans that actually go beyond

23:12

their off schedules in Korea and

23:14

literally stalk them. Sometimes they know

23:16

their phone numbers, sometimes they know

23:19

where they live, sometimes they send

23:21

death threats because their main point

23:23

is because they want to be

23:25

remembered as something. So that is

23:27

called Saa Seng fans which is

23:30

creepy. There are so many instances

23:32

especially the second generation K-pop where

23:34

someone or two or three idols

23:37

that I remember actually received

23:39

letters written in period blood.

23:42

Oh okay, blood sacrifice. Yeah, it's

23:44

giving ghosts. There is that and

23:46

there is also someone who tried

23:48

to poison an idol with glue

23:50

and then another one that got into

23:53

a car accident and someone who tried

23:55

to grab a girl group member off

23:57

the stage. Mid-performance. There are so many

23:59

instances. of that. Okay.

24:02

So there's a point

24:04

where like psychologically, emotionally,

24:06

you're conflating your adoration

24:08

of this person with

24:10

the opposite end of the emotional spectrum with

24:12

like the desire to harm. It reminds me

24:14

of cute aggression when you like, see a

24:16

little cute little chick and you just want

24:18

to like, fucking squeeze it. You want to

24:20

like, hurt it. It's so funny. I'm gonna

24:22

die kind of thing. Yes, kind of but

24:25

times 100. It's like an extreme

24:27

version of that. So that's one part

24:29

of what the fandom is. Unfortunately,

24:31

there are fans, especially I think

24:33

now even here where they're buying

24:36

information of these idols. Sometimes there's

24:38

airline carriers that sell the information

24:40

to fans that tells you what

24:42

their flight is, where they're seated, and

24:44

so on and so forth, which is

24:46

so creepy. And there actually has been

24:48

a recent stalker story that happened a

24:51

couple of years ago of someone who

24:53

decided to move to Korea and he

24:55

was so delusional that he thinks that the

24:57

girl group member is in love with him

24:59

and they've never met before. Right? So that's

25:01

that's the sasaeng world. Then you have like

25:03

the keyboard warriors, they will stand their ground

25:05

no matter what and say, my fav is better

25:08

than yours. No matter what they will say your

25:10

faves are flopping. Mine is the

25:12

best. They have that mentality as well. Because

25:14

they're so immersed and they believe that their idol

25:16

is the only idol. Those are the fans

25:18

that think multi fandom doesn't exist because in kpop

25:20

multi fandom does exist where you could be

25:22

a fan of other idols like that is a

25:25

scenario that is very common. But there are

25:27

fans that are just solely dedicated to that one

25:29

group. And sometimes instances just one member of

25:31

the group they don't care about anyone else. Wow.

25:33

Okay. And then you have the fans like me

25:36

who just like I'm multi fandom. I love

25:38

you guys. You slay. I love it. Keep

25:40

it coming. So there's that the

25:42

multi fandom way. Well, it's so telling

25:44

that there even needs to be a

25:47

term for someone who is allowed to

25:49

admire multiple different groups or multiple different

25:51

idols. And it's called multi fandom. Because

25:54

in this sort of like regular healthy

25:56

world, you don't need to have like

25:58

a special term for being allowed

26:00

to love multiple bands because that's

26:03

just how everyone is and that's

26:05

the default. Yeah, exactly. But it

26:07

says something about the cultishness of

26:09

this industry that a label has

26:12

emerged for people who aren't that

26:14

intense. But yeah, if you think about it,

26:16

it's also the labels doing. It's the artist management's doing

26:18

as well and how they're being marketed. Like

26:20

I said, they are being marketed as some

26:23

people that could be your ideal type. And

26:25

that builds a better, stronger pair of social

26:27

relationships with fans who are getting into it.

26:29

That's so sinister. Yeah. So

26:31

I would love then to talk

26:33

about the role of the industry,

26:36

the like conspiracy of the industry

26:38

to exacerbate the cultishness of the

26:40

fandom because it sounds like there

26:42

is slightly more conspiracy going on

26:44

on the marketing end more than

26:46

in the maybe like American pop

26:48

world. Yes. Could

26:50

you talk about how K-pop idols are born?

26:53

K-pop idols are born. Well,

26:56

when a mommy and daddy love each other very

26:58

much. Versa the

27:00

Beast song. So

27:03

idols actually, depending on

27:06

the situation, there could be

27:08

different scenarios. They are auditioning online or

27:10

in person. They submit video if they're

27:12

not based in Korea or they attend

27:14

auditions that are either held locally in

27:16

Korea or sometimes these auditions tour around

27:19

the states and around the world. Or

27:21

they get scouted by somebody on the

27:23

streets in Korea. And that actually happens

27:25

pretty common as well. So that's one

27:27

way. And then these trainees, they go

27:30

into a rigorous amount of X amount

27:32

of time training where they learn how

27:34

to dance, sing, model, act and learn

27:36

at least one or two different languages.

27:39

So they do that on top of if

27:41

they are a minor going to school. So

27:44

these kids are literally working hard from

27:46

the moment they sign a contract to

27:48

train. However, the down part

27:50

is sometimes you'll never debut at all.

27:53

So you could have someone, a trainee,

27:55

could train less than a month and

27:57

will debut the following week or so.

28:00

something that has happened or you

28:02

could have someone who I for

28:04

example twice heard the leader Gio

28:06

she trained for 10 years until

28:08

she debuted. Wow. So

28:10

she started when she was eight and then debuted when she was 18. Oh

28:13

my gosh. So the people who are

28:16

running these training programs really have like

28:18

a cult leader ish god like level

28:20

of power because there's no

28:22

way to sort of like predict when

28:25

the wrath or when the blessings will

28:27

come down upon you, you know. And

28:30

it's different from how stars are born in

28:32

the US because like, you know, Taylor Swift,

28:35

she was like, I've got a dream and

28:37

she went for the dream. Like her parents

28:39

moved to Nashville with her and you know,

28:41

this is like the cult of the American

28:43

dream mythology, but she started like bootstrapped her

28:46

way and yeah, you know, and to start

28:48

them. But in kpop, you have

28:50

to be fucking blessed by the industry. You

28:52

can't do it yourself. Yeah. And

28:55

you could be blessed because you have either the

28:57

looks or the talent. If you have the looks,

28:59

they will train you. They will make sure that

29:02

you know how to do this thing. And if

29:04

you have the talent, they're just going to keep

29:06

training you more. They're going to just make sure

29:08

that you are being enhanced in other aspects of

29:10

your talent. If you don't know how to rap,

29:12

you'll learn how to rap. You don't know how

29:14

to play an instrument, you'll pick up an instrument

29:16

and learn. They will make you a well rounded

29:18

artist. That's the goal. Another

29:20

thing that's so cool to show about

29:23

this is the level of control and

29:25

conformity. Again, in other music worlds, like

29:27

there's space for individuality. Yes, you hear

29:29

about, you know, the label pushing you

29:31

into this box or you need to

29:33

be sexier or whatever. But in kpop,

29:36

it's just totally accepted. There is this

29:38

one thing that you're allowed to be

29:40

and you will be like militarized into

29:42

that thing and it works. So who

29:44

are the people in power? Like who

29:46

are these like sort of faceless authority

29:48

figures? Do people even know who they are? It's

29:51

usually the label themselves. So

29:53

the labels or whoever the producer, not

29:55

the producer of music, like the producers

29:58

helping create the group is going to.

30:00

have this certain concept in mind of

30:02

these groups. So to break it down

30:04

for you, before boy

30:06

groups would either have the cute side or the

30:09

masculine side. Girl groups would have the same way

30:11

too. They call it girl crush or you're cute

30:13

where it's like you have the tomboyish kind of

30:15

choreography in there. You're kind of like badass and

30:18

all that stuff. Those are the two things that

30:20

they have. And actually what I

30:22

like about K-pop is because if your first two

30:24

singles don't work out where you try out this

30:26

kind of concept and it doesn't work out, usually

30:29

they say the third single or the

30:31

second single hits off depending on how

30:33

much the public likes it. There

30:36

really isn't much individuality

30:38

yet until the group

30:40

finally establishes itself and

30:43

they win a couple of awards under

30:45

their belt. And by awards these are

30:47

like weekly music shows where they rank

30:49

number one. So think TRL just happening

30:51

four times a week on a different

30:54

station. Hey

31:01

culties, I'm so excited to tell

31:04

you about my new book, The

31:06

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31:08

Modern Irrationality coming out April 9th

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31:12

buy books or audiobooks. I just

31:15

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31:17

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31:21

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31:26

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31:30

to our own parents, to nostalgia,

31:32

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31:34

fight or flight in response to

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something as not dangerous as an

31:39

email from our boss or a

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spell of social media drama. If you like

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short books where you learn a lot but

31:45

that also feel like talking to a friend,

31:48

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31:50

Pre-ordering helps authors a lot. You can do

31:52

so at the link in our show notes

31:54

and if you pre-order from that link then

31:56

your hard copy will show up signed which

31:59

is pretty cool. Again, the book

32:01

is called The Age of Magical

32:03

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32:05

for updates about my book tour,

32:07

behind the scenes of the publishing

32:09

process, news about my forthcoming podcast,

32:11

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32:14

what sounds like a cult topic

32:16

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32:18

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help.com. Okay,

36:03

it's so genius and like

36:05

such a cult leader way

36:08

to be like on purpose,

36:10

we are going to manufacture

36:12

parasocial relationships the world over

36:14

and position these idols, not

36:17

just as entertainers, but as

36:19

your surrogate lover, bestie sister,

36:21

mommy. You know, like,

36:23

who's fucking idea was that because it's

36:25

so brilliant. A lot of

36:27

it is actually inspired by J-pop

36:29

because J-pop idol dumb does do

36:31

that. So obviously, K-pop is like

36:34

a big melting pot taking inspiration

36:36

for black culture, American culture, but

36:38

also J-pop culture and how they

36:40

run things. So when you

36:42

see J-pop idols, they always have like these

36:44

meet and greets with idols after the show.

36:47

But for K-pop, when they promote an album,

36:49

you have to buy a certain amount of

36:51

albums and it's raffled for you to try

36:53

and get into meet your idol and talk

36:55

to them for one minute each each

36:57

member. That's the thing. But since

36:59

the pandemic, it's only gotten way more

37:02

popular because they started doing video calls.

37:05

It's double times the work for the artists now. And

37:07

that just only brings more of a

37:09

parasocial world globally. Right. Because

37:12

there really is a chance that

37:14

your God could make contact with

37:16

you like directly. It's

37:19

not like praying like, you

37:21

know, like they really, really, really could fucking call

37:24

you on the phone. And that

37:26

could feel like a very long minute. Damn.

37:28

So what I'm really hearing is

37:32

basically like K-pop has Frankenstein,

37:34

a bunch of strategies and

37:36

dynamics and styles that already

37:38

existed and just really like

37:41

dialed them up and made them more extreme.

37:43

Oh, it made them into like a whole

37:45

monster. It's crazy. It's not just pop culture.

37:48

This is a truly successful and scare quotes

37:50

cult leaders do in general. Yeah,

37:52

there's so many agencies and labels

37:54

in K-pop now. But

37:57

whenever you think of K-pop, there are

37:59

some. something called the Big Three. SM

38:02

Entertainment, JYP Entertainment, YG Entertainment,

38:04

but now there's HYBE. So

38:06

HYBE, who houses BTS, Seventeen,

38:09

TXT. Now, whenever you think

38:11

of K-pop, these labels themselves have a

38:13

distinct sound and visual to them. So

38:15

that's why a lot of fans, sometimes

38:18

they are only fans of a certain

38:20

company too, because they like what's coming

38:22

out of them and they like their

38:24

artists. Got it. So there's a

38:26

lot of top down power going on,

38:29

super hierarchical from the industry side. And

38:31

that trickles into the fan engagement side.

38:33

Yeah. Do you know how K-pop idols

38:36

are treated

38:38

when they go through the training? And

38:40

once they're actually like famous, because it

38:43

seems like how could you not burn

38:45

out? Yeah. So you know how we

38:47

see it from the outside perspective

38:49

is that at least in the Western world

38:51

or the Western market, the label works

38:53

for the artist, right? In Korea, it's

38:55

the other way around. The artist is

38:58

treated as an employee of the company.

39:00

So that's one thing to keep in

39:02

mind. So these idols actually have to

39:04

follow like a distinct day to day

39:06

schedule to get their promo done when

39:08

they're shooting, when they're getting their makeup

39:10

done. But when they are training before

39:12

their debut, they get weekly to monthly

39:14

evaluations. So if you have to lose

39:16

weight, you have to go on a

39:18

diet. There's so much pressure for this

39:21

person or this individual to make sure

39:23

that they are coming out as perfect

39:25

as they can for the camera once

39:27

they debut. And it's also just such

39:30

a mindfuck because the artist and the

39:32

individual themselves kind of just takes over

39:34

their mental health. And it's why so

39:37

many people admire K-pop idols just because

39:39

through that training, you could only imagine

39:41

how many times that they've been bullied

39:43

or not really just reprimanded by how

39:45

much rice they can eat or they

39:47

can't eat carbs at all. Like you

39:49

could get scolded for that or you

39:51

get points off taken for that. There

39:53

are instances where that happens. So

39:56

a lot of it has to deal

39:58

with the looks, how they sound, if

40:00

they're learning fast, a certain language, song,

40:02

their pitch, how much they are adapting

40:04

to different spaces. They test this individual's

40:06

capabilities of doing that, especially for artists

40:08

or trainees who are coming outside of

40:11

Korea. How well will they

40:13

assimilate to this kind of environment?

40:15

Once they do debut and they become successful,

40:17

there is kind of some leniency there. But

40:20

when you're in your first one to

40:22

three years, you are being kind of

40:24

monitored, I guess, to make sure you're

40:26

still presenting yourself perfectly and that you're

40:29

getting the concept down to the T.

40:31

Oh man, there must just be

40:33

like so much trauma because you've

40:36

been like shaped into this one

40:38

particular person for so long. You

40:41

might feel like you can't leave because then who even

40:43

are you? Is there like a dignified exit strategy for

40:45

a K-pop idol? Like how do they get out and

40:47

what do they move on to do? So there's something

40:49

called the seven year curse. The seven year

40:52

curse is that that is the length

40:54

of what an average K-pop idol will

40:56

last for. And I believe it has

40:58

been said that that's the contractual agreement

41:00

between a label and an individual and

41:02

an idol. All these idols that have

41:04

successfully debuted, they are given that basic

41:06

amount of years. And if they want,

41:08

they can renew. Now within

41:11

that seven years, if they don't

41:13

want to continue, usually

41:15

it's because of health

41:17

or something that they broke out of

41:19

contract. For example, JYP Entertainment is known

41:21

to have a three year dating ban

41:23

where they can't publicly date within the

41:25

first three years of their debut. But

41:28

then again, dating is taboo in the

41:30

K-pop world because again, you are kind

41:32

of known as an ideal type. You

41:34

can't ruin the illusion. Yeah, you can't

41:36

ruin the delulu moments. And then there

41:38

are moments where it's like when you

41:40

are kind of in the tail end

41:42

of your contract or you're on your fifth,

41:44

sixth, seventh year, there are already talks about,

41:46

oh, is this artist going to resign? What

41:48

are we going to do? All that stuff. This

41:51

is usually the timeframe where these members

41:54

of idol groups become more individualistic, where

41:56

they'll try their own solo projects. Will

41:58

they go into acting? more

42:00

modeling. That's where those other forms

42:02

of training that they did come into

42:04

life. But for the boy groups, of

42:06

course, they may have to take military

42:09

training, the military enlistment, which is very

42:11

mandatory for every Korean male in the

42:13

industry. So before they turn 30, they

42:15

have to enlist. So there's that too.

42:17

Could being in a kpop group actively pardon

42:19

you from having to be in the military

42:22

or no, you have to enter?

42:24

Actually, it's very interesting you put

42:26

that because of BTS. BTS is

42:28

actually into so much economic growth

42:30

that they bought into the country,

42:33

that they've thought about pardoning them for a

42:35

couple of years or so, like holding back

42:37

their military enlistment in order for them to

42:39

continue to promote. However, BTS said like, No,

42:41

we want to do it the right way,

42:43

we'll enlist and serve. So that's why four

42:45

members are enlisting in less than two weeks.

42:47

So that means all of them will be

42:50

in the military and they will all be

42:52

turned in 2025. But there are instances where

42:56

groups such as EXO, under SM

42:58

Entertainment, where there are some members

43:01

who decide to serve and the

43:03

group will still promote, there are instances

43:05

where the whole group will go into the military

43:07

at the same time and come back. So

43:10

it really depends on how these

43:12

labels are strategically marketing their music.

43:14

The crazy part is, sometimes these

43:16

artists already have it in their

43:18

heads that they will pre film

43:20

content before they leave. So there

43:22

is content for that for fans

43:24

to consume. That makes perfect

43:26

sense to me. Yeah. Wow. That

43:28

is so fascinating and just like

43:31

goes to show the power of

43:33

the K-pop industry on the government

43:35

and the economy. Yeah, nuts. Okay,

43:38

so it does seem like there

43:40

is more than a bit of

43:42

dehumanization of the K-pop idols that

43:44

takes place by the higher ups

43:46

in the industry itself, but also

43:48

by the fandoms because whether you're

43:50

deifying someone or starving them, like

43:52

you're not really seeing the full

43:54

360 complexity of their humanity.

43:56

Yeah. There are a lot of sacrifices that you

43:59

have to make. as a K-pop idol is the

44:01

point. You're like kind of signing your name in the

44:03

devil's book. These idols won't get to see their family

44:05

a lot because they're all in dorms. So it's

44:07

like being in college all day. College

44:10

cult K-pop. Some idols,

44:12

some idols. Okay,

44:20

so I have a few more

44:22

questions. There's been coverage of K-pop

44:24

fans creating these massive social disruptions.

44:26

I was reading about specifically when

44:28

K-pop fans bought hundreds of tickets

44:31

to a Trump rally in 2020

44:33

so that he basically arrived at this like

44:36

very sparsely attended rally. Can

44:38

you talk about any other huge impacts

44:40

of K-pop that have gone beyond

44:43

just the music? Oh yeah, there's

44:45

so many ways. There's that and I remember

44:47

in the election, I believe they were trying

44:49

to turn a state blue. But that could

44:51

have been they just used a song to

44:53

promote it. It was going

44:55

viral to talk. But there's so

44:57

many instances where the BLM movement,

44:59

fans would use their accounts, especially

45:01

on Twitter, to spread awareness of

45:03

what it meant and these artists

45:05

would actually support it. So whenever

45:07

their artists spoke up about

45:10

it, they would share it themselves. They would

45:12

share donations and links and give back to

45:14

the community on behalf of the name of

45:16

their idols. It's a really cool way of

45:18

just bringing a community together. That's the greatest

45:21

part of K-pop. There are instances where a

45:23

lot of fans donate bags of

45:25

rice. And these rice gets donated

45:28

to local towns. So it's not just

45:30

on a global scale, but they definitely do it

45:32

on a local scale too. Other

45:34

instances is where fans go

45:36

to animal shelters and try

45:38

and save the dogs and the cats that need homes. So

45:41

it's simple things like that and

45:43

not just the political side of

45:46

things. They tend to do

45:48

it whenever it's a certain member's birthday

45:50

too. That's usually the time when it

45:52

happens. So they do it on

45:54

behalf of that member and also on

45:56

behalf of when a certain artist or

45:58

group debuted. Wow. Everything you're

46:00

describing right now is totally

46:03

in line with what religion

46:05

brings people. I mean, from

46:07

getting involved in massive political

46:09

actions that may or may

46:11

not be outside their lane

46:13

to performing small acts of

46:15

kindness, the whole range, it

46:17

sounds like you're describing a

46:20

religion, which I do think is very

46:22

much what K-pop is for some people.

46:25

Even the birthday thing, those basically

46:27

stand in as religious holidays

46:30

for fans. Yeah, yeah. The local

46:32

aspect of that I love personally,

46:34

that's when I think a cult-y

46:36

fandom, or any cult-y group at

46:39

all, is at its best when

46:41

you're able to connect in small

46:43

sort of tribes, so to speak,

46:46

really see one another's humanity. But

46:48

it also, it really speaks to

46:50

the larger cultishness of our time,

46:52

that the line separating, the political,

46:55

the pop culture, the spiritual has

46:57

been so blurred. Now our fandoms

46:59

are serving as a proxy for

47:01

our political leaders and our healthcare

47:03

authorities to fill those roles when

47:06

we lose trust in those who

47:08

are supposed to do a good

47:10

job. And there can be

47:12

positives and negatives there. It's just interesting.

47:14

No, it really is. And I think

47:16

another thing that I just came up to on my

47:18

mind is when, if you hear that there's

47:21

a K-pop fan who loves the NBA or

47:23

a certain player, they will hype them up

47:25

and make sure that player sees their presence

47:28

there. And next thing you know it, there's

47:30

a collaboration because the fans help that connection.

47:32

Wow. So I think of a

47:34

Scott 7 member named Bam Bam, he's

47:36

a huge fan of someone

47:38

from the Lakers, I believe,

47:41

or someone from Golden

47:43

State Warriors, something with a ball. That

47:45

happened, and they collaborated. And then obviously

47:47

you see Sugar from BTS and he's

47:49

like the face of NBA. He's like

47:51

an NBA ambassador now. So it happens.

47:53

Wild. I mean,

47:56

it's cool, but it's also like blind

47:58

following. It's like you like something? I

48:00

like something. Tell me what you

48:02

like. Yeah. Yeah. And I

48:04

get it. I get it. Because

48:06

there's a lot out there. And

48:09

if your idol, your pseudo faux

48:11

parasocial boyfriend is telling you to

48:13

love the NBA, why the fuck

48:15

not? Yeah, exactly. What do you

48:17

think is like the absolute worst

48:19

case scenario of the quote unquote

48:21

cult of K-pop? How dangerous can

48:23

this thing really be? And for

48:25

whom? It could be dangerous to

48:27

the artists. Outside of the Sossing fans, there's

48:29

obviously just dedicated anti fans. They hate them

48:32

because they're just breathing. There's so much jealousy

48:34

pent up in that person or this keyboard

48:36

warrior behind the screen that they kind

48:38

of bully them to the point

48:41

to suicide. It has happened. Unfortunately,

48:43

there's so much bullying, there's so much

48:45

tabloid work that has been done that

48:47

kind of affects the mental state of

48:49

this person. And it kind of twists

48:52

the idols mind that you know, maybe

48:54

I am maybe I am that person

48:56

that they're saying, and it has unfortunately

48:58

happened to one or two female idols

49:01

in the past. And that bullying,

49:03

it sucks because it continues now.

49:05

And there hasn't been much of

49:07

an improvement to how agencies and

49:09

companies have taken care of it. They

49:11

always say like they are using cybersecurity,

49:13

they are actually tracking down who's writing

49:15

it and so on and so forth,

49:17

who's kind of like defaming these artists.

49:20

So there's that that's one thing. And

49:22

it's not only that on my end,

49:25

as a writer and producer, there are

49:27

colleagues that I've had that received death

49:29

threats from fans just because of the

49:31

things that they've written about a certain

49:33

artist, or they didn't like a certain

49:36

point that they've made. And that becomes

49:38

rampant. And that is actually the fuel

49:40

that keeps these fans or these toxic

49:42

fans going and slide them into their

49:44

DMS and say is like, I hope you

49:46

die. I hope your mom dies. They

49:49

kind of threaten the whole being in

49:51

your whole career and they try and

49:53

docs you. There is that doxing part

49:55

of it too. I know K-pop fans

49:58

have sent like trucks that just rally

50:00

around their agencies, kind of protest trucks,

50:02

they're called protest trucks, that would

50:04

speak on the labels and the marketing teams to

50:06

be like, hey, you should promote your artists better.

50:08

And that only doesn't take a toll on the artists,

50:10

but it also takes a toll on the team that

50:12

works with them. So there's that. Oh

50:15

my God, I'm so scared. I'm like, my

50:17

opening question is like, why do you think

50:19

no one wanted to come on this episode?

50:21

Now I get why. Oh

50:23

Jesus Christ. I mean, thankfully, like for

50:25

me, like I always try and logically

50:27

talk about it, like trying to lay the ground

50:29

out and see how it goes and talk

50:31

about it in a lighthearted way. But I talk

50:34

it in a way where it's like, this is why

50:36

you need to understand this is why it happens. But

50:38

I always play devil's advocate at the same time. For

50:41

sure. I mean, when I hear

50:43

stories about this, my immediate impulse

50:45

is to think like, that's heartbreaking.

50:47

Like hurt people, hurt people,

50:50

you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But

50:52

at the same time, there has

50:54

to be consequences and accountability. And

50:56

I don't know that that accountability

50:58

is being held because why should

51:00

the K-pop industry leaders at large

51:02

be all that incentivized to temper

51:04

fandom? Even if the fandom is

51:06

negative, it's like, that's really tough.

51:08

Yeah, it's crazy because nothing has

51:11

been done. So let's say a certain writer did

51:13

an interview or they write a thing. No

51:15

one will speak up. It's just you, no

51:17

one else. Sure, there's fans who are helping

51:19

to support you and they're kind of defending

51:22

you online. But at the end of the day, it's really

51:24

just you because they won't stop. If

51:26

you have the majority thinks otherwise. Right,

51:28

the group think, oh my gosh, it's

51:30

truly so, so, so culty.

51:34

And I in large part blame the internet.

51:37

Oh no, yeah, it's definitely the internet. It

51:39

makes the whole thing so completely dehumanized. Yeah,

51:41

it's heartbreaking. That's why it's scary to become

51:43

an idol sometimes because even before you

51:45

debut, you will already get criticized because

51:47

your pre-debut pictures will get criticized and

51:49

critiqued already by people on the internet

51:51

and people who are trying to know

51:53

what's going on with the label. Dude,

51:56

I can only imagine the

51:58

sense of of isolation

52:00

that they feel the internet it's a

52:02

scary place I mean even just having

52:04

a podcast is often too

52:06

much internet for me. Well

52:08

that was a very scary final

52:11

point but I do want to transition to

52:13

something a little lighter-hearted or maybe not I

52:15

don't know. You just never know

52:18

with kpop now it's like where are we

52:20

going? I do want to play a little

52:22

game. Okay. It

52:25

is a very simple sounds like a cult

52:28

game it's just what's cultier so I'm going

52:30

to name kpop and another

52:32

type of fandom and I'm

52:35

gonna ask you to determine

52:37

in your opinion allegedly allegedly

52:39

which you believe is cultier.

52:41

Okay. Okay first round which

52:44

is cultier kpop fans or swissies?

52:46

Oh that's kind of hard that's actually

52:48

really hard can I say both? Sure.

52:50

Is it possible? Yeah I'll allow it. There

52:53

is some type of like similarities between them.

52:55

Yes. Yeah what do you think is the

52:57

number one similarity? I think it's just like

52:59

the surprise aspect whenever Taylor Swift like comes

53:01

out with stuff everyone just conjoins on the

53:03

internet that's kind of like the same thing

53:05

when an artist drops like a surprise

53:07

teaser to their next album like everyone

53:09

it just goes out like wildfire and

53:11

it just amplifies everyone makes edits everyone

53:13

makes like TikTok challenges like it just

53:15

goes on it's like they're free for all

53:18

and it's the same with Taylor like

53:20

whenever Taylor drops something it gets so

53:22

glorified so that's just the same thing.

53:24

Yes oh my god it's like people

53:26

on drugs but they're just high on

53:28

their idol. Okay which is cultier kpop

53:32

fans or Elon Musk

53:34

fanatics? I

53:37

feel like Elon Musk fanatics are just

53:39

whoa I feel like they're weird

53:41

no offense like

53:43

they're just so bro-y man like I can't like it's

53:45

just a bunch of like fat boys

53:47

just worshiping this guy especially with

53:50

how ex-former twitter is now it's

53:52

like you see that coming out of the

53:54

woodwork and you're just like this is weird

53:56

how you're worshiping this guy and he's kind

53:58

of pretty evil man like Like it's... Yeah,

54:02

he is kind of pretty evil, man. I know. Elon's

54:05

stands are so unpleasant. However,

54:08

are they commissioning enormous trucks to

54:10

circle buildings? I don't know. That

54:13

is true. That is true. I

54:15

feel like Elon Musk's stands

54:17

are more unpleasant, but K-pop

54:19

stands might be cold here.

54:21

Yeah. When you say Elon Musk, I think of

54:24

his followers and his worshipers in a negative

54:26

light. So I'm like, that's cold here. That's

54:29

the thing is that cultishness is totally in

54:32

the eyes of the beholder. And we like

54:34

to use that word as like a negative

54:36

judgment for good reason because, you know, a

54:38

lot of cults are like really, really, really

54:41

fucked up. But it sounds like a cult

54:43

is always just an invitation to look in

54:45

the mirror and see what's culty about you,

54:47

honey. Exactly. Okay. Which

54:50

is cultier, K-pop fans or

54:53

Trekkies? Ooh. They're

54:56

both like cool. I mean, I think

54:58

K-pop fans? Yeah.

55:01

Because like there's just so many

55:03

aspects to what K-pop is

55:06

comprised of. Where Trekkies,

55:08

like obviously there's the show, there's the

55:10

outfits, there's the behavior, there's the language.

55:12

But like, I think with K-pop, it's

55:15

the cultural aspect because once you get into the

55:17

music, it's like everything. It goes beyond just the

55:19

music. It's the whole Korean culture. Totally.

55:22

And Trekkies are like so

55:24

harmless. Yeah. I

55:27

don't want anyone to protect them. I have a cousin

55:29

who's a Trekkie, I'm like, you go, dude. Cute.

55:32

So cute. Okay.

55:35

Which is cultier, K-pop stans or believers?

55:38

In terms of them calling out and fighting online,

55:40

they're kind of similar. But the

55:42

believers are more quiet these days. I don't hear about

55:44

that much. Yeah, there's nothing to happen, so I'd say K-pop

55:46

now. K-pop's the worst thing. Yeah.

55:49

Bieber's been keeping it tight. Yeah, he's been chilling.

55:51

He's been chilling. He's a merry man. Okay,

55:54

last one, which is cultier,

55:57

K-pop stans or Marvel fans? Ooh,

56:01

that's a pretty good one because I know a lot of kpop

56:03

fans are Marvel fans too. Oh, is there a

56:05

Venn diagram? Yeah, because in kpop like

56:07

a lot of kpop groups love Marvel.

56:09

Okay, I can see that. There

56:12

are some groups out there that kind of dubbed

56:14

themselves like the Avengers of kpop or they're like

56:16

the Thor of kpop or they are the Captain

56:18

America of kpop. So it kind of just has

56:20

like that parallel universe type of thing. I get

56:22

it because they're both types of superheroes. Yeah, yeah.

56:24

Larger than life. And I'm saying this in a

56:26

good light so whoever's listening please don't come at me.

56:29

It could be similar but I would say

56:31

K-pop. At the end of the day.

56:33

Yeah. But this is well from what I'm

56:35

learning so far. Oh my

56:37

god. So

56:44

now I want to pose to

56:46

you the most important question of

56:48

any episode of Sounds Like a Cult. The

56:51

cult of kpop. Out of

56:53

our three cult categories. Live your life.

56:56

Watch your back. And

56:59

get the fuck out. Which

57:02

one do you think it falls into? It's definitely

57:04

watch your back. Because

57:07

it's like you have to be wary of

57:09

what you're consuming when it comes to the

57:11

kpop fandom. Like sure you're going to become

57:13

a big fan of this artist and stuff

57:15

but there are some negative connotations sometimes and

57:18

that is the part where you never know

57:20

where your mental state will be. Like you

57:22

don't know how deep you'll go and you

57:24

won't even realize it. That's the part. Like

57:26

I think that's why it's considered a cult

57:28

right? Like you could call it a cult

57:30

is because you don't know how psychologically or

57:33

even financially deep you'll be when it

57:35

comes to getting into kpop. I know

57:37

I am stressed even talking about

57:39

it. Yeah I mean we could

57:42

there could be part two's and part three's about

57:44

this because it's so complex. Fully. Yeah

57:46

so such a big spectrum. It's just a matter

57:48

of how far you're willing to go with it

57:50

because there are fans who will dip into their

57:53

savings to try and meet an artist or get

57:55

into a fan sign and you would never know

57:57

if you're going to see them. Yeah. It

58:00

gets so obsessive to the point where

58:02

they become a sassing fan where you know

58:04

They just want to put kind of some type

58:06

of harm or they just want to stalk them

58:08

So you just never know so yeah watch your

58:10

back for sure. I mean any hardcore

58:13

kpop fans are listening It's a live your life. Don't worry. It's

58:15

a live your life. It's a live your life. It's a live

58:17

your life It's a live your life for sure. But for the

58:19

rest of us It's a watch your back Like

58:23

enjoy like the kpop fandom is such

58:25

a fun place to be like bringing

58:27

that community and going to concerts and

58:29

just Vibing is honestly one of the

58:31

best parts of it and just being

58:33

able to see the artist Yeah, in

58:35

my opinion That's the way the cult of

58:37

any music fandom is meant to be enjoyed

58:39

get offline when you can if possible

58:42

if acceptable Go to

58:45

a park listen to music together

58:47

with a little group touch some

58:49

grass Well,

58:52

this has been such a fun convo Thank

58:56

you so much for taking the risk if

58:58

listeners want to keep up with you and

59:01

your writing and never believe your doc's view

59:03

Where can they do that? You

59:05

guys can follow me on Access people

59:08

still use it and threads and Instagram

59:10

at live Francis. So that's LA I

59:13

F R N CS by Francis

59:16

I usually write for up rocks

59:18

and sometimes I do really big

59:20

features on some artists on Teen

59:22

Vogue as well So you

59:24

could find me either or as well as

59:26

enemy sometimes on cam or just writing stuff

59:29

digitally. So there you go Thank you

59:31

so much. Well, that is our show. Thanks

59:33

so much for listening stick around for a

59:35

new cult next week But in the meantime

59:39

But not too cold Sounds

59:48

like a cult is hosted and produced by

59:51

Amanda Monchill and edited by Jordan Moore of

59:53

the podcast And our theme music is all

59:55

Casey Cole. This episode was made

59:57

with production help from sweetie person And

1:00:02

if you like the show, please feel free to

1:00:04

check out my books The Word's Blood, A Feminist

1:00:07

Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The

1:00:09

Language of Fanaticism, and The Force Pending The Age

1:00:11

of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern

1:00:13

Irrationality If you're a

1:00:15

fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate

1:00:17

it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple

1:00:19

Parkets Thanks

1:00:30

for watching!