4:00

the children every four minutes,

4:02

they're not able to learn. And the

4:05

teacher is probably going to have a

4:07

difficult time teaching. And

4:09

she said, we're going to sue the city of

4:12

New York because the

4:14

noise we believe is intruding

4:17

on their learning. And as

4:19

the wife of an attorney, I said,

4:21

you need data to prove

4:24

that the sounds from the trains are

4:27

disrupting the learning in the classroom.

4:30

And she turned to me, she said,

4:32

Can you help us? And

4:35

that was it. I went to

4:37

the principal of the school. The

4:39

school was a perfect setting

4:43

in a natural setting. Half

4:47

the school, the classrooms were

4:49

exposed to the trains on

4:51

the quiet side of the building, no

4:54

sounds of that nature. So

4:56

I compared the reading scores that

4:59

were provided to me by the

5:01

principal of the children next

5:03

to the trains and the

5:05

reading scores of the children on the quiet

5:08

side. And by the sixth

5:10

grade, the children were

5:12

nearly a year behind in reading

5:15

when exposed to the noise. That's

5:18

considerable. And

5:21

let me tell you that study

5:23

got lots of attention. The

5:26

press was there, the

5:28

media, the public officials,

5:30

the parents, everyone was

5:32

so disturbed by what they

5:35

learned from that study. But

5:38

then I realized the mother had

5:40

asked me to help

5:42

her child. Publishing a

5:45

paper did not do that. I

5:48

had to advocate to

5:50

lessen the noise next to

5:52

those classrooms. Having

5:55

contacts with some people

5:57

at the Transit Authority, I met

6:00

with them. They told me they were testing

6:02

out a program to

6:04

lessen noise on the tracks. They

6:06

were going to be installing rubber

6:09

resilient pads. I said, okay,

6:11

choose the school in Inwood. Choose

6:14

the school I did by study.

6:16

Test out the rubber

6:18

resilient pads. And I

6:20

went to the board of ed

6:22

and said, how can we get

6:24

acoustical tiles in the ceilings of

6:27

those classrooms? Now, people say

6:29

to both agencies

6:31

in New York City

6:34

listened to you. It's

6:36

a little unusual, but

6:39

I did have all the support.

6:41

And the New York Times was

6:44

also supportive. And then

6:46

they did test out the rubber

6:48

resilient pads by placing it there.

6:51

And they then asked me,

6:54

actually a public official said, go

6:57

back, Dr. Bronsav, see if

6:59

it helps. Well, I

7:02

went back. And I was

7:04

so pleased to be able to say that

7:07

now with the pads installed, the

7:10

noise lesson, the teachers

7:12

were happier in the classroom,

7:14

the children were. And

7:16

guess what? Children on both

7:19

sides of the building were reading

7:21

at the same level. And

7:24

those two studies, which

7:26

were then reinforced

7:29

by further studies that found

7:31

that noise impacted on children's

7:33

learning changed my

7:36

life because I didn't

7:38

just publish two papers that

7:41

now considered landmark research.

7:44

I got involved in noise and

7:46

I found people coming to me

7:48

with all sorts of noise and

7:51

saying, help me. Now

7:53

you were able to get those changes. That

7:55

was back in the 70s. What has happened

7:57

subsequently? Does the transit authority, are they still

8:00

making making changes to abate noise? Transyl

8:02

authority actually asked me to come in and

8:05

help them with respect to

8:07

noise abatement. I

8:09

worked with their engineers. I

8:12

as psychologists, no engineering background,

8:15

was able to provide information

8:18

on how to design a

8:20

quiet attraction motor. I

8:22

worked with them. While I

8:24

was there, noise was elevated.

8:26

That's not a top priority

8:29

at the transyl authority. So

8:32

when I was involved, yes,

8:34

they were doing things along the

8:36

system. They then said they

8:38

were to put in this resilient pads near

8:40

all the schools. I think

8:42

there were 54 of them. I said, uh-uh. People

8:46

live near the tracks. That

8:49

should be a program for the entire

8:51

system. They agreed. Today,

8:56

you're calling me, doing this

8:58

interview rather at a very appropriate time,

9:01

there's been increased noises

9:04

in the transit system,

9:07

which they're studying. I

9:09

was so pleased I was able to call

9:11

someone who's been there for 35 years.

9:14

So I knew this person. I'm

9:18

now going to be working

9:20

with researchers at NYU and

9:23

the transit authority to

9:25

revisit the trains that

9:27

have gotten noisy. And

9:30

so, but I think that action

9:33

was taken. You've got

9:35

to give high grades to

9:37

the board of education and the transit

9:39

authority. And to think

9:41

that they took a person that embarrassed

9:43

them. Those first

9:45

study results came in. I

9:48

wasn't popular at the transit

9:50

authority, but they said, you know what?

9:53

Let's work together and let's

9:55

try to quiet the system. So

9:58

I think there are lessons to be learned. learned

10:00

here of how people

10:02

can cooperate and

10:04

get a problem solved. So

10:07

I give them high breaks. What

10:10

else do we know about the effects

10:12

of noise on the physical and

10:14

mental health of people? How has

10:16

the research advanced since you first

10:18

did those studies? The

10:21

research has indeed advanced. I've

10:23

done two other studies on the effects

10:26

of aircraft noise on health, but

10:28

didn't have large samples, so

10:31

I basically found that the people

10:33

were being disturbed and the equality

10:35

of life has been diminished. Studies

10:37

have now linked noise

10:40

to cardiovascular disorders so that

10:42

if people are living with

10:44

aircraft noise, and you

10:47

can't imagine unless you're exposed to

10:49

it how awful that is, they

10:52

are at an increased risk to

10:55

being entering hospitals

10:57

with cardiovascular disturbances.

11:01

Sleep loss has

11:03

been linked in studies to

11:05

noise. Sleep is

11:08

essential for good health. So

11:11

the literature is confirming this.

11:13

I'm actually working with a

11:16

professor at Columbia who will be

11:18

shortly doing a study on

11:21

the effects of community

11:23

noise on sleep

11:25

of people living in that community.

11:28

So the studies are there. They've

11:31

been replicated.

11:34

They have found that noise is harmful

11:36

to health. But now let's take mental

11:38

health. I wish you

11:40

would be in my home when I get a call

11:43

from someone who has a noise problem. The

11:46

anguish, the distress, the

11:49

unhappiness, the frustration

11:51

of not having this being

11:53

resolved. Having been exposed

11:56

to neighbor noise maybe five,

11:58

six years. having

12:00

been exposed to noise coming

12:02

from a venue in the

12:04

neighborhood. Those are

12:06

psychological effects, distress,

12:10

disturbance. Now, while

12:12

the stress, which

12:14

comes with stress and disturbance,

12:17

can lead to physiological disorders,

12:20

the mental discomfort and

12:23

anguish and unhappiness has

12:25

been identified throughout the

12:27

world. And let

12:30

me add this, you may not yet

12:32

have become ill. Your

12:35

blood pressure may not have yet risen

12:37

to a point where you need medication.

12:41

But you know what? You're not living

12:43

a decent quality of life. Quality

12:46

of life is important.

12:49

It's not just enough to be alive.

12:52

My daughter, who lives

12:54

in Queens with aircraft noise, cannot

12:57

enjoy her backyard. Wow,

13:00

COVID came. And

13:02

what a comfort that was. No

13:05

planes, birds

13:07

singing and being

13:09

viewed as she sat

13:12

and enjoyed her backyard. I

13:15

think people are entitled to

13:17

quiet in their homes. And

13:20

hopefully, they will not develop

13:23

more serious symptoms. But

13:26

when they're being imposed by

13:28

hazardous noise pollutants,

13:31

they are missing out on

13:34

living a decent quality of

13:36

life. Can you

13:38

become inured to noise like that?

13:41

I mean, you live in Manhattan.

13:43

I used to live in Manhattan.

13:45

I know that it's very noisy.

13:47

Eventually, you almost don't hear it

13:50

anymore. But are you still experiencing

13:52

the psychological and physiological effects? Yeah,

13:55

you notice the Manhattanites in certain

13:57

areas walk very fast. to

14:00

figure out why they walk so fast

14:02

to try to get away from the

14:04

noise. Sometimes a person

14:06

you stop to ask for directions

14:09

may not stop and talk to you. Give

14:12

that person a break. That person's trying

14:14

to get away from that noisy environment.

14:17

But in my experience, I

14:19

think most New Yorkers will stop and talk

14:21

to you. Now let's

14:23

talk about getting accustomed

14:26

to a sound. That

14:28

requires work. That

14:31

requires stress on your system.

14:35

And that will cause an adverse

14:37

effect. And I'm going

14:39

to give you another term that comes up. Learned

14:42

helplessness, a psychological

14:45

term, where a person feels

14:47

no matter what I do, nothing

14:50

is going to change. I

14:52

cannot make another phone call

14:54

to my legislative assistant. I

14:58

can't talk to my neighbor again. I

15:01

have to learn to live with it. Living

15:05

with noise is stress.

15:08

It takes work to

15:10

try to cancel out

15:12

the sounds and go on

15:14

with your life. And

15:17

that is costly to your health. Now,

15:20

I mentioned that you're on the

15:22

board of GrowNYC, a nonprofit, that

15:25

people can contact when they have a concern

15:27

or a dispute about noise. And your name

15:29

and number are right there. Can you tell

15:31

me about that work and the kinds of

15:33

issues that you've dealt with over the years

15:35

in that role? That's it. My

15:38

name and the phone number is of the office.

15:41

You get to GrowNYC, and

15:44

Priscilla will count-tap me immediately

15:46

and say, hey, we've gotten

15:48

this call. So,

15:50

I have… Neighbor noise is

15:53

very high on the list. I

15:56

guess we live in a society where

15:58

people lack respect. where

16:01

people are not acting decently.

16:04

Would a neighbor turn on her

16:06

TV at 6 a.m. and

16:09

blast music to the

16:11

neighbor next door or downstairs

16:14

if she were respectful, if

16:16

she really cared about other people?

16:19

So many of those problems

16:22

are really rooted in people

16:24

not caring about others. And

16:26

we're living in a society where

16:29

this is applicable to other issues

16:31

as well. So when

16:33

someone calls me, I listen

16:35

to that person and

16:38

their voice calms down and they

16:40

get to feel better. I'm not a

16:42

clinician. I haven't given them

16:45

therapy. I've listened. And

16:47

I've been the first person who has listened. And

16:50

even though I haven't done anything to

16:53

remedy the problem, the person

16:55

is so relieved. You

16:57

listen to me. You understand.

17:00

You will help me. Now,

17:02

have I been able to help people?

17:04

Have I gone to managing agents? Have

17:07

I gone to board chairs? Have

17:10

I gone to landlords? Yes. And

17:13

I have to say that in many cases, I've

17:15

been able to help people. I'm

17:18

going to give you another example that

17:20

I think people may be surprised at.

17:23

One of the complaints people have is

17:25

the music venues in their

17:27

area are loud or

17:30

the doors are kept open or

17:32

the person lives downstairs. And

17:35

I found that when

17:37

the mayor of New

17:39

York, de Blasio, the last mayor, appointed

17:43

a nightlife mayor, I

17:46

found that I could reach out to her,

17:49

call the person who she

17:51

reported to, and met with her.

17:54

And she said she cared about

17:56

noise. And I said, good. We'll

17:58

work together. And I did

18:01

have a few complaints that dealt

18:03

with music venues, but I had someone to

18:05

call and someone

18:07

who would work with me. It

18:09

turned out she retired from the

18:12

position, but she contacted

18:14

the person who replaced her. He

18:17

and I have already talked and

18:19

we'll work together. The other thing

18:22

is these music venues belong to

18:24

a national group and

18:26

they were meeting in New York City. And

18:29

I was invited to speak to these

18:31

venues from all over the country on

18:33

how important it was lessen

18:37

the sound level of their

18:39

music. Be aware that you

18:41

can be intrusive. Keep

18:43

the doors closed. And

18:46

I did a podcast with

18:48

one of the people from

18:50

the organization, which has been

18:52

circulated throughout to all the

18:54

groups. So I guess

18:56

I do things in a reasonable fashion.

18:58

I listen.

19:01

And by the way, when a person

19:03

contacts me with a noise problem, when

19:05

I write to the landlord or

19:08

to the managing agent, I always

19:10

say, let's talk and let's

19:12

see how I can work with you to

19:15

resolve the problem. And

19:17

I find that if we just

19:19

respected each other a bit, we

19:22

know that we shouldn't

19:24

have stomping on a

19:26

wooden floor at five in the

19:28

morning. And if you go

19:30

to our site, we have

19:33

a brochure that could be downloaded. And

19:36

this brochure was years ago. And

19:39

all I say is be respectful. But

19:42

be aware that your sounds may not

19:44

be wanted by others. Now,

19:47

you're unusual in that you

19:49

have this position in the city of

19:51

New York. Are there comparable people in

19:53

other cities? Is there a network of

19:55

people who do what you do? I

19:58

belong to organizations. I've

22:01

been invited to speak in Australia

22:04

and some of the towns

22:06

are small, but I tell

22:08

people noise can follow

22:11

you. And I'll give you a perfect

22:13

example of a man who's

22:15

now page one of The New York Times,

22:18

Donald Trump. Laura

22:21

Largo has planes

22:23

flying over his home.

22:26

And you know what he did?

22:28

He initiated a lawsuit to try

22:30

to stop the planes. And

22:33

he had that lawsuit for many

22:35

years. And

22:38

I facetiously say, so he ran

22:40

for president and the planes would

22:42

stop flying over his home, which

22:45

followed. They would stop flying once

22:47

he was president and they dropped

22:49

the lawsuit. Noise

22:52

doesn't discriminate. It

22:55

can go everywhere. You

22:57

never know in your quiet community

23:01

that a facility may be built

23:03

next to you that will impose

23:05

noise. And

23:07

you could be as well to do as

23:09

Donald Trump. And you couldn't

23:11

stop the planes from flying over your

23:14

home. Now, we all know

23:16

that New York is a noisy place. Even people

23:18

who've never been there have seen it in the

23:20

movies and they'll know that there's a lot of

23:22

noise in New York. Is New York the noisiest

23:25

city in the world? I

23:27

think it's been rated that. But let me tell you

23:29

something else about New York. New

23:32

York passed noise ordinances in the 1930s.

23:36

We're sort of number one in that also. New

23:39

York has me on

23:41

a site that says if

23:44

you have a noise problem, contact

23:46

Dr. Bronzev. But remember, I'm

23:48

writing a letter as

23:50

a member of a board that's

23:53

been appointed by the mayor. That

23:55

carries more class. I don't think

23:57

Dr. Bronzev, professor emeritus, is there.

23:59

City University would carry that kind

24:02

of clout. So I think

24:04

I could say that yes, being

24:06

a city, but look, you're

24:08

thinking of Times Square. And

24:10

when the ball falls on

24:12

New Year's Eve, yes,

24:15

it's loud. But you know what?

24:17

That's a pleasurable sound. You

24:20

might think of our ballparks of

24:22

shouts and screams. But you

24:24

know what? When I go to Yankee

24:27

Stadium, that's what I do. You

24:29

will find that we have areas in New

24:31

York that are noisy, but you know what?

24:33

We also have a lot of parks.

24:37

I live on the Upper East Side. I

24:39

can walk along the river. During

24:42

COVID, that was wonderful. I

24:45

walk along the river

24:47

back and forth. It's over a

24:49

mile. I'm a little

24:51

further away from Central Park, but I

24:53

can go to Central Park. You'll

24:56

see New York has parks. We

24:59

have green areas. And we

25:01

have now activists

25:04

that are saying we have to

25:06

protect the quiet spaces. We

25:08

have to enrich our

25:10

city with these places. And

25:13

we have to combat helicopter noise.

25:15

We have that. But we

25:18

have legislation in the City Council

25:20

saying that we

25:23

should not permit non-emergency

25:25

helicopters. We have legislation

25:28

in the state. Now

25:30

you should ask me, what about the

25:32

federal government? What have

25:34

they done about noise? Zero,

25:37

in my estimation. However,

25:40

if we go back, and you're going

25:42

to have to come up with the president, there

25:45

was a president that set

25:47

up the Environmental Protection Agency

25:49

that gave us the Noise

25:52

Control Act, that gave

25:54

us the Clean Air Act, which president? Richard

25:57

Nixon. Not only did he say that, but he

25:59

said that he was a clean air. set up

26:01

EPA. He put an excellent person in

26:04

charge of EPA. EPA

26:06

was coming out with

26:08

literature on how

26:10

harmful noise is to health.

26:13

In fact, their literature in the

26:15

late 70s said noise is

26:18

a health problem. Look how advanced

26:20

we were in the late 70s.

26:23

And they were handing out

26:26

brochures and they came

26:28

to cities and talked to people. And

26:31

then Ronald Reagan was elected president.

26:33

He essentially shut down the noise

26:37

on the VPA. But

26:39

there were a number of presidents after

26:41

Ronald Reagan. They could

26:43

have refunded it. The Bushes

26:45

could have refunded it, right? We

26:49

could have Clinton put, Obama

26:52

could, and Biden

26:54

could certainly refund the noise

26:56

office. There's legislation introduced in

26:58

Congress, but they've been doing

27:01

this for years to

27:03

try to get funding. But we

27:05

haven't had an executive order that

27:07

says, hey, this is

27:09

a serious problem. Let's get

27:12

back to what we were doing in the 1970s.

27:15

And if you come to my home, I

27:18

can show you the brochures,

27:20

the pamphlets, and you'd

27:22

see how active the U.S. was no

27:26

longer. So what are the

27:28

prospects of that being reinvigorated? Are you

27:30

doing any work in that area? Yes,

27:33

I've been working with groups across

27:35

the country. They

27:37

are putting pressure. A bill has

27:40

been introduced by a Congress person,

27:43

and she has a number of people

27:45

sign on to the bill. But there's

27:47

no comparable bill in the Senate. There

27:49

was one sign. And so

27:52

what I'm saying is that

27:54

you have to join a group. You

27:57

have to talk to people in your community.

28:00

numbers count and

28:02

the thing that comforts me, I

28:05

should be disillusioned after five decades,

28:07

right? I could say, hey,

28:09

it hasn't happened. Or I should

28:11

quote one of my daughters, mom,

28:14

you're still talking about noise in the same

28:17

way. Have you

28:19

accomplished anything, mom? I

28:21

don't think you've made much of an impact. My

28:25

daughters say that with a smile.

28:28

But what I'm saying, I can

28:30

tell people that when the Senate

28:32

introduced a bill by

28:35

a New Jersey Senator, he was the

28:37

key person to refund noise

28:40

abatement back in the 90s, which

28:43

Joe Biden actually

28:45

signed in to

28:48

support that legislation. He

28:50

was definitely supporting it, but

28:52

nothing happened. So yes,

28:55

am I unhappy about it? Yes,

28:58

but what makes me happy is

29:00

more podcasts like this one, more

29:04

press coverage. It isn't

29:06

either that's getting covered by the press.

29:09

It's the noise issue that's

29:11

being covered and it's

29:13

getting more attention and that does give

29:15

me hope. And

29:18

I'm gonna wait and see because

29:20

I think we will recognize this

29:22

dangerous pollute. Let me say something

29:24

else. If studies show

29:27

that exposure to aircraft noise

29:31

increases your risk of going to

29:33

a hospital for

29:35

cardiovascular disorder, that's

29:38

gonna cost money. When

29:40

you allow noise to

29:43

prevail, it's costly. So

29:46

even though the airlines

29:48

say, oh, if we make changes and

29:50

they are exploring changes, let me tell

29:53

you that they are. If

29:55

that could be costly, what's more

29:57

costly than medical health? health in

30:00

this country. I think the military,

30:02

they beat it. But when

30:05

you do not take care of a noise

30:07

problem, like the children who were a year

30:09

behind the reading, how much would

30:11

it have cost to try

30:14

to improve their reading scores?

30:16

They were nearly a year

30:19

behind. If you don't lessen

30:21

noise pollution, it

30:23

will cost this country in terms

30:25

of dollars. And I want that

30:28

factored in when the

30:30

FAA's approach to

30:32

provide quieter aircraft and

30:34

quieter routes. One

30:37

of the things that I ran into when

30:39

I was prepping for this interview was the

30:41

fact that there's something now called a noise

30:43

camera. What are these instruments and

30:45

where they're being used? What are they supposed

30:48

to do? They're in the

30:50

pilot study stage. New York has the

30:52

pilot study. And they've done

30:54

it in several cities in the US

30:56

and in Europe. Europe's a little bit

30:58

ahead of us. Actually, when it comes

31:00

to funding research and noise, Europe

31:03

is definitely ahead of us. The

31:06

camera works the way a

31:08

speed camera works. When

31:10

a car with modified

31:12

mufflers that come

31:15

to the corner blasting through, a

31:18

picture is taken of

31:20

the license and the

31:23

sound level is registered. One

31:26

of the problems early on was

31:28

that if there was a car next to you,

31:32

that could be added to the

31:35

sound level so

31:37

that it's not your car that

31:39

made loud sound. It

31:42

was a contribution by the car next

31:44

to you. So they had to work

31:46

that out. New York City now has

31:48

a pilot study. They have

31:50

found that when people are

31:53

penalized, that there's less

31:55

noise in the area, but they

31:57

only have a few cameras. next

34:00

door, saying

34:02

the bed bangs against the wall. So

34:05

I would suggest you move the bed a

34:07

few inches away from the wall. And that's

34:09

how that problem was solved. And

34:12

then I'll give you my one

34:14

early case. A man

34:16

decided to build a windmill

34:19

in his backyard. I

34:21

actually went out to New Jersey and

34:24

listened to that windmill. And I can

34:26

tell you, even when I walked into

34:28

her home, it was still in my

34:30

head. The good news, the

34:33

windmill was taken down. And

34:36

from what I hear, that case

34:38

is discussed in law classes. So

34:42

sex, drug dealing, windmills,

34:46

I don't think you can come

34:48

up with something that I haven't yet done.

34:51

Well, I want to thank you for joining

34:53

me today and thank you for making the

34:55

world a little bit less noisy. Well,

34:57

let me just say quiet

35:00

enhances health. I

35:03

didn't say silence because I was still wanting

35:05

to hear birds. I still

35:07

want to hear the air blowing. And

35:10

I still want to hear the babbling of

35:12

young children. Thank you. You

35:16

can find previous episodes of

35:19

Speaking of Psychology on our

35:21

website at www.speakingofpsychology.org or on

35:23

Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever

35:25

you get your podcasts. And

35:28

if you like what you've heard, please subscribe and

35:30

give us a review. If

35:33

you have comments or ideas for

35:35

future podcasts, you can email us

35:37

at speakingofpsychology at apa.org. Speaking

35:40

of Psychology is produced by Lee Winerman.

35:43

Thank you for listening. For the

35:45

American Psychological Association, I'm

35:47

Kim Mills. you