0:29

What could be Spirits Podcast A boozy

0:31

dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every

0:33

week we pour a drink and learn

0:35

about a new story from around the

0:38

world. I'm Amanda and I'm Julia and

0:40

this week we are joined by the

0:42

wonderful author artist lover of folk and

0:45

fairytales and mythology. It's Mail Guild and

0:47

how are you male? I'm good. Thanks

0:49

for having me on! I wanted to

0:52

start this episode off by being like

0:54

the the timeline of me a experiencing

0:56

your work. I remember I came across.

0:58

A One Year Comics probably in

1:01

Twenty twenty. It was the the

1:03

Goddess of Mishaps comic on Tumblr

1:05

and I was like all this

1:07

is so cool I really love

1:09

this. This is so like are

1:11

vibe here on Spirits and then

1:13

I was in a bookstore up

1:15

in Vermont recently and I came

1:17

across other ever after his in

1:19

that bookstore and I was like

1:21

oh this I recognize that this

1:23

is the same person and got

1:25

really excited. Bought it immediately. was so thrilled

1:27

to like just to see it in the.

1:29

Existence I hadn't even like seen that is

1:31

been published work So when I finished reading

1:33

it a message Amanda Immediately humans like we

1:36

have to have. Them on because I think

1:38

this would be perfect. And to your

1:40

credit you answered right away so it provide

1:42

perspective. I just sat out about you few

1:44

days ago and I have so much to

1:46

dig into. I'm so excited and absolutely so.

1:48

Mail can you tell us first have a

1:51

little bit about yourself and the work that

1:53

you do and then we can talk a

1:55

little bit more about other ever after his

1:57

and just a the queerness of folklore in

1:59

fairy tales. in general? Sure. So

2:02

my name's Mel Gilman. They then pronounce for me. And

2:05

I am a graphic novelist and

2:07

a colored pencil artist. And I work in a

2:09

lot of different genres and

2:11

styles of storytelling. But one thing

2:14

that has been kind of a

2:16

thread through the past several years

2:18

of my comics life is that

2:20

I draw a fairy tale comic

2:23

every year for 24-hour comic day

2:25

specifically, which is this annual comics

2:27

holiday where cartoonists, because we are

2:30

gluttons for punishment, we give a challenge

2:32

where you want to draw a 24-page

2:34

comic in 24 hours, which is a

2:36

nightmare and no one should ever do

2:38

it. Incredible. Truly

2:40

incredible. But I've been

2:42

doing this every year since 2016. And

2:45

every year it's a queer fairy tale

2:47

comic, an original fairy tale. So not

2:50

retellings of existing stories, but rather things

2:52

that I'm making up whole cloth in

2:54

the style of fairy tale storytelling. And

2:56

many of these have been floating around

2:59

Tumblr since, like, Yonge's

3:01

past. It's always really fun

3:03

when I get people who are, like, pick up

3:05

my book now, Other Ever Afters and are like,

3:08

wait, wait, all these stories were by

3:10

this one person? Like, them?

3:13

One weirdo on Tumblr who did, like, all

3:16

of these comics? And

3:18

it's truly incredible. The power

3:20

of queer fandom cannot

3:22

ever be denied. And the fact

3:25

that people were like, they

3:27

immediately recognize the style and

3:29

the vibe. It's just

3:31

so fantastic. So I was so glad

3:33

to see that these comics

3:36

that I recognized from the

3:38

internet are now a

3:40

book. You know? It's

3:42

such a wonderful thing to see.

3:45

One, we love to see queer

3:47

people succeeding in general. But the

3:49

fact that it's also so up

3:51

our alley, this kind of fairy

3:54

tale folklore format is

3:56

so wonderful. So you've

3:59

been doing this for years. years, clearly. At

4:01

what point did the kind of, oh, this,

4:05

was it a, oh, this should be a book or

4:07

was it, oh, someone approached you and said it should

4:09

be a book or what was the scenario

4:12

there? The funny thing is kind of

4:14

both things happened simultaneously. So the year was 2019.

4:18

A lifetime ago. Take me

4:20

back. What a year in

4:23

retrospect. And I had just done the

4:25

comic you mentioned, The Goddess of Mishap's story.

4:27

And so it was, you know, it's an

4:29

annual October event, this 24 hour comic day.

4:31

And I like draw the comic live

4:33

and post the pages typically on Twitter first

4:36

and like a thread so people can

4:38

read the story page by page as it

4:40

evolves. And, you know,

4:42

most of these comics had gotten a

4:44

pretty wide amount of response from readers.

4:47

They would get retweeted a lot and

4:49

things like that. But this one in

4:51

particular really hit people in a big

4:53

way that year for whatever reason, got a

4:55

really big response to it and had people,

4:58

a lot of people talking about it and

5:00

a lot of people who were excited about

5:02

it. And there was enough of a response

5:04

that me and my agent

5:06

got a cold email from Random House

5:08

being like, Hey, we

5:10

noticed that you're doing all

5:13

these fairy tale comics. What if

5:15

we made a book out of the

5:17

funny thing about that was like, that

5:19

was the exact same day that I

5:21

had sent my agent an email being

5:23

like, do you think you pitched this?

5:25

Like, people, could this work? So it

5:28

was sort of a happy accident in

5:30

a way that like the stars aligned

5:32

and just a scrappy little like Twitter

5:34

thread of comics pages online was enough

5:36

to attract the notice of editors working

5:38

at bigger publishing houses. And they, you

5:40

know, they were clearly able to point

5:42

at this and be like, okay, Clearly

5:45

people like this. Clearly, there's something here. So

5:47

Let's see if we can make a book

5:49

out of this. And I Was really happy

5:51

to get to do that. The Book itself

5:53

is like half stories that already exist online

5:55

that people have seen before and half new

5:58

stories that do not take. The

6:00

Storm Lie that are print only. And

6:03

so I guess my question to kind

6:05

of started off with his when you

6:07

are sitting down to do. Wanna bes?

6:09

Twenty four hour comics which again, that

6:11

absolutely wilde of a challenge is so.

6:13

Impressive that you do it every year.

6:15

Truly a wild to me. do you

6:17

have a plot in mind before you

6:19

kind of sit down and start working

6:21

on it? Definitely. Also,

6:24

I seat pretty liberally censored or our

6:26

topic challenges are because it's the only

6:28

way that I could manage to do

6:30

the about of work. That's involved s

6:33

certificate we would I do is I

6:35

have rates and pencil them before the

6:37

event happens or that we I make

6:39

sure I'm like really solid arm the

6:41

sorry that I want to tell that

6:43

I had the pages laid out in

6:45

the way that I want to do

6:47

them and then on the day of

6:49

the event itself I'm just doing the

6:51

colored pencil portion of it which is

6:53

a like a big undertaking I have

6:55

you know dude miss all in traditional

6:57

media it's all him drawn had colored

7:00

see the labor intensive process I as

7:02

that. Is the one thing that I'm

7:04

doing this like marathon push? On Forty

7:06

Four, our topic. Days I do spend a lot

7:08

of time making sure that I'm developing the stories

7:10

in the way that I want to do. I

7:12

think it would be. Really really hurts

7:14

use these stories that have that

7:17

actually feel like either saluted satisfy

7:19

narratives if I was like. Do

7:21

we get paid by chance of a writer?

7:24

To us of planning is good. I'm a

7:26

big fan of planning and cheating. Cheating is

7:28

always said. There's no real rules and prospects.

7:31

There are no rules and a challenge that

7:33

you're giving yourself. Basically, you know, right? Yeah.

7:35

Third, there's no comics. Cops that are

7:37

going to compounded on my door. Thank

7:39

goodness the broke the rules. Of

7:41

assist so in creating these like you're

7:43

plotting, these are. You trying to create

7:45

a full fledged story and to these are

7:48

all original stories that you have come up

7:50

with. Yourself Is there a place of inspiration

7:52

that you're drawing from? You can kind of

7:54

work your way back from. You're like, oh,

7:57

I remember hearing a story like this as

7:59

a child. I wanna do my version

8:01

of it Or are these more like. Kind.

8:04

Of coming to You Poke Lost Every stories

8:06

a little different, but for me there is

8:08

usually kind of I I think of him

8:11

it's like hurt threads in a way where

8:13

there's like a a poor a motion to

8:15

the story. that's usually something really personally like

8:17

something that I feel strongly in my own

8:20

life and I'm finding a way to

8:22

put it down on paper in a fictional

8:24

context and I turn it into a staple

8:26

of sorts like arms Want One of the

8:29

stories that I did in the Spoke one

8:31

of the very first ones are called

8:33

the Fish. Ways and it's a story about

8:35

a middle aged woman who's living in a

8:37

very small conservative town and she is clear

8:40

presumably and is in a situation where she's

8:42

kind of at this age where she's realize

8:44

that like I live in this tiny town

8:46

I'm the only clear person here like I'm

8:49

never going to have any chance for romance

8:51

just because I knew everyone who lives around

8:53

me it as like I'm not going to

8:55

be did he do people it were over

8:58

the course of my life and this that

9:00

like try to came out of like personal

9:02

experiences of being a small. Town queer and put

9:04

it like you hit that. Seats were. Sort of look

9:06

at around a big like there's no one for

9:09

me it I know every what did this time

9:11

shouts i add like the dating pool is so

9:13

small presses queer people to begin with it's absolutely

9:15

give your liver that like a rural areas like

9:18

this. What's left for be So having

9:20

like that the kind of the emotional core

9:22

and having that the something were like. If

9:24

you the storyteller have something that you feel

9:27

really strongly something that is personal to you

9:29

in that it's like deep within your own

9:31

chest and you know that you can like

9:34

put that out on paper in some way

9:36

I you know. We're really

9:38

as human beings to we ever experienced and

9:40

emotion that no one else has ever experienced

9:42

before. Some people are going to be able

9:45

to like connect to it and really to

9:47

within find something. It's in their own deepest

9:49

heart of hearts that resonates with the thing

9:51

that you're putting down for. Usually that's where

9:54

the stories come from, You know it's something

9:56

deep an internal to me is that. Ah,

9:58

he was very personal, but. Finding a

10:00

way to fictionalize it on paper or

10:02

so, there is kind of like a

10:04

weird trajectory in the narratives. Over the years

10:06

where you can as like io enough for me at

10:08

least I can look at the stories and had of

10:11

see myself. Eating and see myself. Like maturing

10:13

and learning new deeper and better

10:15

truth about myself as a humid

10:17

pursuits up at finding ways to

10:19

communicate those on paper. So yeah,

10:21

supposedly others during sex involved in

10:23

the of the story that they've

10:25

got on because at this point

10:27

I've been doing. This for hims that

10:29

he'd have held since the yeah easy. You

10:31

can see that narrative progressive for me as

10:34

an author. at least. I mean isn't that

10:36

the beauty of being an artist and being

10:38

a creator in a storyteller is that you

10:40

can see yourself in these stories. That also

10:43

see how much you've grown. And ice

10:45

axes. I love that aspect of being

10:47

like oh my art was so different because

10:49

I was going through something some different

10:51

then and to look at it now I

10:53

mean like when I look at myself. I'd

10:56

say lot of self criticism be like oh girl

10:58

uni widows go at all about for it like

11:00

would even do it but I. Imagine that.

11:02

Like is Ashley in like a published

11:04

work where you're using a story that

11:06

you had already told and now like

11:09

publishing new ones. It's probably really interesting

11:11

to see them side by side and

11:13

be like oh, wow, You know Mel

11:15

Ten years. Ago was going through it,

11:17

but Mel now is going through an entirely

11:20

different things. Yeah. Yes! And also

11:22

I mean even if he does look at

11:24

likes the ways the world is changed from.

11:26

Like twenty six seem to twenty twenty four.

11:28

A lot of six of hospices sudden

11:30

it was so it's like that combination

11:33

of like internal drug that also like

11:35

external chaos. Guess I guess that us

11:37

mess up is messy complicated ways but

11:39

that's going to be true for everybody

11:41

but also like more to the point

11:43

of like self criticism for sure like

11:45

you I think every author when you

11:47

are looking back at your older worse

11:50

you it's so easy for you to

11:52

have that hypercritical i were in all

11:54

of the errors just field glaring to

11:56

you because you have grow as a

11:58

storyteller. And as an artist said. Then, but the

12:00

thing that I've learned which is hopeful

12:02

news is that I feel like that's

12:05

hypocritical lens that you have. As an

12:07

author, looking at your own work almost no read

12:09

or ever feels that when they're looking at your

12:11

older pages like maybe they'll they'll notice like. Speedo

12:13

stylistic burrow or changes along the

12:16

way down by the errors are

12:18

not like. Layering and

12:20

horrible to them in the way that they are

12:22

for you to sort. Of the of the like take

12:24

a step back to be like okay I know a

12:26

girl is that artists but like it's fine. It's that

12:29

by own and work inside it it can be what.

12:31

It is. I don't have to go back

12:33

to the correct thing. It can. Exist in

12:35

the like time capsule. That it

12:37

was. and that's just fine he announced. As

12:39

and I think that's true of like a lot

12:41

of folklore in fairy tales is like the look

12:43

at the way that. Is the original Beauty and

12:46

the Beast with certain For example in you're like.

12:48

Wow, that sir was a product

12:50

of it's time and like a

12:52

weird criticism of arranged marriages. You know,

12:54

like that, anything but the way that we

12:56

read tell that story nowadays. the the moral

12:59

of it is so different. You know

13:01

what I mean. Yeah yes, that's one

13:03

of those things that I love the

13:05

it like feals and very tales in

13:08

general. Is that really what they are?

13:10

These like kind of flexible narrative frameworks

13:12

that you can hang different allegories on

13:14

and allegories change. As you know, culture

13:17

changes and the human interests and needs

13:19

change. You know when arranged marriages no

13:21

longer a thing like you're saying that

13:24

most young girls are encountering in their

13:26

lives? Then the story evolves and adapts

13:28

and becomes may be more about. Like

13:30

oh well. maybe we shouldn't judge people

13:33

by like first appearances And you know

13:35

if someone. Is like outwardly comprehensible

13:37

or outwardly a scary? Maybe they

13:40

still have like eating something worthwhile?

13:42

Be tackled him. Their tour that

13:44

we could find like it's. The

13:46

same narrative but it's like the allegory

13:48

changes with cultural changes and that's one

13:51

of the reasons why a fairy stick

13:53

around as because they're flexible in that

13:55

way in the content of the falls

13:57

along with different generations of readers and

13:59

story to. There's one of the

14:01

beautiful things about them. Yeah, absolutely.

14:03

And I think that the thing

14:06

with any stories is that there

14:08

is always some sort of narrative

14:10

influence because of the person telling

14:13

the story. Like there's no like

14:15

out of here. there's no non

14:17

political story, but there's always some

14:20

form of influence from the person

14:22

telling the story. Oh yeah, and

14:24

I think that's like can be

14:27

really good because like you know,

14:29

for example, retelling. Fairy nowadays

14:31

to have more. Of a

14:33

queer twist on it. A queer once. I

14:35

get we're seeing so many

14:37

like clear retailing's of classic

14:39

fairytales or classic myths in

14:41

publishing, right? Now for better or for

14:44

worse you know depends on how you how

14:46

you view the publishing industry as a whole

14:48

and trends in the publishing industry. But

14:50

I think that it is really

14:52

interesting to hannah look at it

14:54

and be like weekend. Probably keep

14:56

retelling the same stories for thousands

14:58

of years and they will have

15:00

the same basic bones. But they

15:02

will always be a different moral based

15:05

on like. Telling him and I think

15:07

that's. And agree. And I love

15:09

that you mentioned the flexibility of their

15:11

health, because that is what makes Harry

15:14

Tells so enduring in that way. Absolutely,

15:16

it's kind of related to that. This

15:19

is a little bit silly. that wasn't

15:21

the moments when I do that like

15:23

I had done something right with my

15:26

own Fairy Tales In and you know,

15:28

knowing that that flexibility is an important

15:30

part of it is I would like

15:32

a T civilian get like google notifications

15:35

from Ios three where someone is written

15:37

fan six in not all the time

15:39

that I wrote but rather teaching the

15:42

fairytale structure of the story that I

15:44

wrote in and applies to like Minecraft.

15:46

Boys sexy or whatever sampler and into

15:48

your eyes who had a ball like

15:50

you know if my story like the

15:52

the narrative bones. Of it are flexible

15:54

enough that you could like find that

15:56

like sable interior at that like apply

15:58

it to like yours. You're bored out

16:00

your job it's it's a great there

16:03

and either deeply pleased every time something

16:05

like that comes up when in doubt

16:07

I disco death cel Vienna you just

16:09

like as blaring out without. As

16:11

love with it's is still good. Yeah, when

16:14

your tag when you're trope, when it's like

16:16

what is the. Lady though, the melt

16:18

comic A You have this. Like I

16:20

said, that's. Incredible. So

16:22

if I remember correctly, there's

16:24

for comics that. You previously written

16:27

three brand new stories for the book.

16:30

Was there a moment where you

16:32

like looked back at the stories

16:34

that you had already previously written

16:36

and we're like okay, well. I.

16:38

Kind of hit on that story. I kind of

16:40

hit on that framing. I got a hit on

16:42

that moral, how do I. Move forward from

16:44

here and like which what do I

16:46

focus on next? Would that

16:49

look like partly just because of

16:51

the that type of person that

16:53

I am? Unless I checked myself,

16:55

all the stories that I want

16:57

to tell are basically lonely Village

16:59

Girl falls for like hot Monster

17:01

Lady and Hot Monster Lady. Risks

17:03

are a way to a better

17:05

place. Enlisted men. I could have

17:07

those forever Tripoli video game franchises

17:09

or anything to. Go by. A society has

17:11

enough for you and not the other way around

17:13

as get. On my level hear more were

17:15

four months or lady yeah services for

17:17

sir it like a Sicily when I

17:20

was approaching the news stories in the

17:22

bugs and also I mean since and

17:24

still doing it though like Edu old

17:26

new comic ever years I always have

17:28

to sit myself down to be like

17:30

Mel you've already told that story about

17:32

a son that see if we could

17:34

do something different this time as I

17:36

pushed myself to try to you think

17:38

a new in different directions I'm I

17:40

had some good. It's guidance from the

17:42

folks at random House. I was working

17:45

with them and some of their

17:47

most useful suggestions where things like

17:49

hey Mel, What if you had

17:51

more stories that had young protagonists

17:53

in them? So they're not romances,

17:55

their stories about children and you

17:57

know, family connections. those like Locates

17:59

Legs yes. That's the way to avoid.

18:01

More like Hutton simply, these are nice, but

18:03

that's one way to do. It and

18:05

also in the the time since finishing

18:07

this book I've shifted a lot into

18:10

more horror fairy tales to partly because

18:12

like heat of the Thing that I

18:14

kept on pushing up against the wall

18:16

that I kept on hitting when I

18:19

was writing both hot Monster Lady stories

18:21

was like it's hard to make the

18:23

hot monster ladies do anything morally questionable

18:25

when you want it to be a

18:27

good happy li ever after romance at

18:30

the end of the days are in

18:32

that kind of can streams the amount

18:34

of like. Character arcs and character growth

18:36

that Edo or Hot Muster ladies can

18:38

go through. So if you approach it

18:40

from a horror perspective it's like oh

18:43

no. Moral calculation is very different here.

18:45

We could have a little bit more

18:47

all flexibility with the kind of things

18:49

that they could get away with, and

18:51

we could have a little bit more.

18:55

Getting into the narrative here and that kind

18:57

of broke through some of those walls in

18:59

a useful way, while still allowing me to

19:01

tell like. Weird. Horny. Let's the it's

19:03

just a which you know it by heart

19:05

of hearts. The thing that I always want

19:07

to do we can have a hard and

19:10

horny lesbians. We're so lucky in this world.

19:12

Leader. And he didn't They didn't kiss.

19:15

Just. This is gonna

19:17

very like make this a moment. Of Time and

19:19

we are recording a time capsule. But I walked into.

19:21

Like a beer tasting room the other

19:23

day it's ah and the queer them

19:25

bartender a was like looked at me

19:27

like sir me the beer and them

19:29

and I sat down clearly like grasping

19:31

for small talk with like. So.

19:34

You seen driveway dolls and I'm like a court

19:36

T side of her. Love my bleeding a mirror

19:38

like yes and it is. It's like okay good.

19:40

Everything about how I present myself of the world

19:43

and working. Like this is exactly at holdouts,

19:45

but only a little bit. Beautifully

19:48

lovely or didn't type tests

19:50

Overseer plus as okay, sometimes

19:52

easy when someone has their

19:54

own community. That's okay. Sour

19:56

yeah, yeah. I to funny

19:58

moments like that Also added. Bishop recently where I

20:01

had a like a men's blazer with like

20:03

a little like fraud pin that my partner

20:05

had given me such as the are blurry

20:07

so was like oh you're you're you're was

20:09

and fraud queers and as. Like I am one

20:11

of the pressure for the support of the hype. He

20:13

was like i don't regret those at like. Six

20:17

listen Soft is hop for this

20:19

insists. I love that! Simply

20:21

thread who first.earth of I'm like what

20:24

the fuck is a fraud Quickly really

20:26

bad has amid the by Gordon Juliet

20:28

your a lizard queer, I'm a turtle.

20:30

Clear we know. This a hammer and

20:32

I'm asking queer saga? Get our

20:34

citizens Yeah we we all gotta

20:36

pick a reply. Learn. Amphibia insistence on

20:39

her bed. I thought you were going to

20:41

stop at the normal queer coffee shop interaction

20:43

in my experience which is I like your

20:45

pin or I like your scarf as code

20:48

for. I'm also clear which is which is

20:50

just like warms my heart on the weekly

20:52

here for say that we jumped right over

20:54

that leapfrogged over it as well. Nice dammit

20:57

Arabia. So in terms of

20:59

making that transition to more

21:01

horror beast comics like we

21:03

can have horror and lesbians,

21:05

it's fine. How

21:07

was that transition for you? Like with

21:09

horror? something that you are already very

21:11

interested in and like Making that transition

21:13

was fairly easy. Or was it like

21:15

oh, I had the kind of like

21:17

learn any skillset because I was doing

21:19

these one really sweet fairytale stuff and

21:21

now I have to. Make it

21:23

scary. You.

21:26

Know I've always loved horror.

21:28

Ah, It's it's. always been

21:30

a thing that. I have a door

21:32

it like I was definitely one of those kids

21:34

who grew up reading those like scary stories to

21:36

tell him the dark birds the ones with the

21:39

lights for as buying. See than gamble illustration

21:41

of engine was like oh so that

21:43

was like form it is you know

21:45

what your breed is still wet a

21:47

you see that like is laid out

21:50

there are so I would see those

21:52

target demographic for stuff like that and

21:54

and I started writing more for you

21:56

know once I got into my like

21:59

cheetos. The twenties and thirties

22:01

his arm and I think part

22:03

of it is. Probably it in a

22:05

we were talking. About you know how the

22:07

world it's changed. A lot in the

22:09

last decade and I think it he

22:12

know many artists have ah kind of

22:14

found themselves gravitating towards horror and I

22:16

think that there is a understandable response

22:18

to your feelings of increased anxiety and

22:20

stress in the world around us at

22:22

finding ways to have that play a

22:25

role in the fiction that you are

22:27

writing on and and horror. In some

22:29

ways it's like trying to make sense

22:31

of a world which feels like it

22:33

is going off the rails. I'm actually

22:35

like that comes out in a lot

22:38

of. What you know both me and

22:40

many other for authors are are are

22:42

working with when we're approaching news stories

22:44

of her telling in this genre us

22:46

but you know I feel like horror

22:49

and fairy tales like they always gone

22:51

well together. He knows that the the

22:53

old Grimm's fairy tales were often times

22:55

victory deeply like violated Her effects are

22:57

so it's always been in like the

22:59

blueprints. Of fairy tales and. You

23:02

know so much of it is

23:04

about Santa See and the horror

23:06

of the unknown and encountering a

23:08

magic things that are not always

23:10

there to help you. Go ahead

23:12

and you know being able to

23:14

kind of recognize and address the

23:17

darkness of he know day to

23:19

day life in an allegorical ways

23:21

works really well with fairy tales

23:23

as we felt pretty natural to

23:25

get to explore that arm and

23:27

it really just helped me to

23:30

open up a lot. Of doors

23:32

for different of moral paths that

23:34

a story could take a look.

23:36

Big story that I've been working

23:38

on that ah the past couple

23:40

years as lists like three parts

23:42

hot Goblin queen, divorce narrative mama

23:44

which has been great for getting

23:46

to tell a story where it's

23:48

like yeah let's not just have

23:50

such a monster lesbians that also

23:52

let's have like fucked up months

23:54

or lesbian divorce narrative like let's

23:56

see what happens when a big

23:58

my classic one. The one girl

24:01

character Ross's the. Heat

24:03

of the Goblin to you know what

24:05

are the consequences gonna be of? That

24:08

are, and how does that play

24:10

out in a narrative? And it's

24:12

really fun to give yourself permission

24:14

to play around in a sandbox.

24:16

said like get to bring in

24:18

narrative paths that do not necessarily

24:20

always lean towards the classic happily

24:22

ever after in a very like

24:24

Disney weigh you down and I

24:26

think there's something really interesting to

24:28

about differentiating. Like. Horror.

24:31

From clear. Horror. Because

24:33

you know with with regular horror

24:35

a lotta times the scary thing

24:37

is just the other like something

24:39

that is not aligned with what

24:42

we expect or what we would

24:44

society expects to like you get

24:46

which is which is just like

24:49

oh women not acting. The way

24:51

that they shouldn't the according to this like.

24:53

Patriarchal society? Or you have monsters

24:56

who are just like, not human

24:58

and therefore scary. Or you have,

25:00

you know, like people who are

25:02

just existing outside of societal norms.

25:04

And then for clear horror. A

25:07

lot of times clear horror is

25:09

just. oh, I'm already existing

25:11

outside of societal norms and the

25:13

societal norms are becoming so like.

25:16

The so much pressure on me or

25:19

becoming this kind of malevolent force that

25:21

I have to fight against as a

25:23

clear person and I really think that

25:25

that's like. Such. An interesting

25:27

way to approach because now you're taking

25:30

fairytales which are already about like being

25:32

other to a lotta times or being

25:34

like the main character is the one

25:36

being Other Bites, for example, the Little

25:39

Mermaid with Hans Christian Anderson or just

25:41

like a lot of classical Greek Mythology

25:43

is about like you know, I'm someone

25:46

who has been monsters because they did

25:48

not bow down to a person in

25:50

power or a god in power and

25:52

it's really kind of cool to like

25:55

know it's not a queer people. Are

25:57

reclaiming hard because I think. We've always

25:59

existed. Horror But knowing that

26:01

we can tell our. Story is

26:03

and they resonate even if someone is

26:05

not like in the same position as

26:07

us. Yeah. One hundred percent and

26:10

I feel like so much as the

26:12

the horror elements in fairy tales come

26:14

from this. like the friendliness and boundaries

26:16

in the fuzzy this of edges between

26:19

like you know what is human and

26:21

what is monstrous and what is I

26:23

it like acceptable social norms and what

26:25

are non acceptable or and I feel

26:27

like as queer people like we exist

26:30

in those. Like a weird said the

26:32

in between areas already is so much

26:34

of our like you know both very

26:36

real day to day lives that also

26:38

it like the allegorical sense of where

26:40

we fall in the lights, social to

26:42

the sitting. On Zillow. So

26:44

having it's narrative that are about

26:47

boundaries and crossing boundaries and the

26:49

with by what happens when people

26:51

do not fit neatly into categories

26:53

ah dad's ito establish norms have

26:55

tried to box people into that

26:58

inherent fluidity in their the wiggly

27:00

this of clear life and clear

27:02

eyes storytelling sit so well with

27:04

like fairy tales and horror and

27:06

you're absolutely right like it's been

27:09

a part. Of clear storytelling and

27:11

clear storytelling and horror for been

27:13

a long as queer people have

27:16

been making stories which is forever

27:18

Donna Blinds. Yeah yeah it's

27:20

It's such a natural fit and it's

27:22

such a fun like say embark to

27:24

get to play around with because you

27:27

get to be the person who is

27:29

looking at these structures and saying well

27:31

what if we broke them What happens

27:33

when these things break down and when

27:35

we don't assume that these boundaries in

27:37

these positions are like set in stone

27:40

and forever. What happens when we've

27:42

moving between? Them and break things I'd

27:44

That's that's like new A that's the

27:46

most fun part of storytelling to. Oh

27:48

yeah, that's that's why I think the

27:51

like the handshake meme of like queer

27:53

people and genre sex and it's is

27:55

So that is so Rights Because there

27:57

is something about the. Genre. Like I.

28:00

I have come to read a lot

28:02

of romance in the last several years

28:04

and before that I was a very

28:06

like side by fantasy kids. That's what

28:08

brought Chile and I together originally in

28:10

addition to i love a mythology and

28:12

we were children so that that having

28:15

such a a rigid but like a

28:17

defined menu of troops and breaking them

28:19

because you know them so well and

28:21

you know them enough to circumvent them

28:23

in ways that are really really interesting

28:25

or to see use them like I'll

28:27

never forget Courtney Milan published a like

28:29

swooning historical. Romance with there no

28:31

third act break ups and other

28:34

sites can do more. and it

28:36

was so transgressive, especially for her

28:38

having like easing characters find love

28:40

without a presence in a hurry.

28:42

Nineteenth century settings was just absolutely

28:45

incredible and that is like one

28:47

of a jillion example that I

28:49

can think of where you know

28:51

the more. You love, understand and respect

28:53

ish on right? The more fun it

28:55

is Ah to break it and I

28:57

think that we as a community are

29:00

just like so well disposed to doing

29:02

and enjoying that. One hundred percent,

29:04

yet totally agree that I really

29:06

want to continue the conversation. We

29:08

had to quickly refill our drinks, but

29:10

we will be right back. Hey.

29:16

It's Julia and welcome to the resell

29:18

Of course I want to tell you

29:21

all hey go check out our patriotic

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Page round.com Such Fields podcast. He gets

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up Scotty again that is that.

30:00

crayon.com/spirits podcast And as always I

30:02

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30:06

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30:10

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30:16

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30:18

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30:20

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30:22

about the like children of those

30:24

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30:26

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30:28

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30:31

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35:48

have you been drinking lately? Whether that

35:50

cocktails, Mark Tales Coffee Creations, what have

35:52

you? What has been your drink of

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35:59

Who flees? I

36:01

comics I have gone ahead first

36:03

in and gotten really obsessed with

36:05

a mushroom foraging as a hobby

36:07

a mod years when I tell

36:09

you that was gonna be my

36:11

next question because selfishly I want

36:13

to talk about foraging. I I

36:15

cannot believe you brought. It up I'm

36:18

so excited Butcher it. So the turkey

36:20

tales of really like popular. Medicinal Mushroom

36:22

and it turns out it's on like every

36:24

other log in the woods out with like

36:26

the east or happened view as it is

36:29

so com is like you can't walk into

36:31

the woods without tripping over this like very

36:33

of somebody some old mushrooms so you can

36:35

make out one of the most popular ways

36:38

to do a pita use this much or

36:40

medicinally is to make aids that will picture

36:42

out of it where you are like basically

36:44

chopping up this mushroom that you like pulled

36:47

off of that dirty log in the middle

36:49

the woods, somewhere chopping it up infusing it.

36:51

In like high plus vodka for

36:53

like several months and the bad

36:56

to turns this like of unappetizing

36:58

looking like to around his. Color

37:00

when like all the mushroom goodness

37:02

that. Seeps into it and then

37:04

you take the same mushroom bits

37:06

and boil them in water and then

37:09

you mix the water in the box

37:11

had together and make this weird like

37:13

medicinal vog become mushroom teeth and I

37:16

will admit on it's own this is

37:18

not the most pleasant thing I have

37:20

durham to before, but when you wanna

37:23

like have no discernible cocktail in the

37:25

evening worthless around here let's put a

37:27

little them first. Film five say to

37:30

the six One of those get my

37:32

good immune boosting. Whatever on top

37:34

of like. Didn't do enjoy a

37:37

drink after work so that's the. The

37:39

weird thing that I've been reading lately

37:41

is mushroom. Alcohol. Site?

37:43

that's I mean you didn't that

37:45

who mommy element which is always

37:47

good. poor hitter. medicinal. I see

37:49

like a lot of places are

37:51

starting to incorporate like mushroom alcohols

37:53

into cocktails lately and I think

37:55

like of weird mushroom martini would

37:57

probably be delicious and read up.

38:00

Ali pursue my oh yeah by oh my

38:02

god that sounds really cool answer to that.

38:04

I feel like my my husband would freak

38:06

out of all of us that I brought

38:08

him a bunch of mushrooms. I was like

38:10

someone needs And vasco you be like what?

38:12

What are you doing most exotic dancer a

38:14

line somewhere honey. Really?

38:17

No, No, No one told me I could do

38:19

it and so he probably got there about it.

38:21

Oh God. And it now I feel

38:23

less selfish. Springing up your your cool foraging

38:25

experience but I am going to ask about

38:27

it was. Then I got you into

38:29

this as a like area of interest.

38:31

It started off as kind of my

38:34

his late. twenties. When he

38:36

pandemic hobby because like foraging is a

38:38

surprisingly good thing to be doing what

38:40

in he know and we all remember

38:43

what sub or twenty twenty was like?

38:45

Either we're we're trapped in our houses.

38:47

are you know? it's impossible to like

38:50

and go see friends safely or like?

38:52

Go and do many things of but

38:54

I discovered Aid recently just moved to

38:57

Columbus, Ohio ourselves as new transplant to

38:59

the Midwest started to realize that there's

39:01

actually a ton of stuff out here,

39:04

like growing in the neighborhoods. And in

39:06

the woods and along the creek paths.

39:08

and like everywhere we are living in

39:11

a overgrown food forest. I'd that is

39:13

that is very literal way to think

39:15

about it because this is a landscape

39:17

which was you know created an evolved.

39:20

Over the course of millennia. As

39:22

land practices from indigenous people.

39:25

Who you know? very. Purposefully sauce stirred

39:27

species and fostered food. Forest south

39:29

fear for their own use and

39:31

after colonization and after you know

39:33

genocide and forced removal and now

39:35

it's kind of being less to

39:37

just over grow and invasive species

39:39

are encroaching. Anyway this is the

39:41

snow's like I get. What about

39:43

the prologue typo? an hour and

39:45

so excited with along and sort

39:47

of it is like you know

39:49

as he is a person who

39:51

is interested and foraging. When you

39:53

go out the start realizing very

39:55

quickly the. Level of abundance that

39:57

exists in our wilde spaces.

40:00

Then that is not an accident

40:02

that is a remnant of indigenous

40:04

land practices in this ah the

40:06

in the United States and it's

40:08

been very life changing for me

40:10

and it seems to lot of

40:12

how I think about like history

40:14

and agriculture and wilde spaces and

40:16

all of that to learn more

40:18

about what foraging means out here

40:20

and what sustainable practices are with

40:23

foraging and how you can go

40:25

about that and what that means

40:27

as a window into the history

40:29

of this land associates. That's not

40:31

liking Much more depressing have turned of

40:33

a topic to take our, but it's.

40:36

The kind of things you you definitely

40:38

have to grapple with when you start

40:40

really getting into this as a practice.

40:43

I'm so glad we got to. Talking about both, I don't

40:45

use a total. A cyber as I see.

40:47

no bring it up at the yeah and mean

40:49

it's like a little selfishly that. with also my

40:52

pandemic hobby, I got really into mushroom foraging and

40:54

them like I'm urging in general are, so it's

40:56

it's It's nice to be able to talk about.

40:58

It I also appreciate your hatred for

41:00

the Bradford Pear tree. So oh, God

41:02

I wonder if I wanted to let I feel

41:05

like this is the first year that the internet

41:07

has like come around to let Julian I who

41:09

grub and like a. Cookie cutters suburban

41:11

New York City. Ah referred pair

41:13

like along every blog including my

41:15

own home we have known we

41:17

have notes, ads are people are

41:19

finally realizing it. The. I tried to

41:22

explain it to and of our coworkers who

41:24

group in Texas so did not have them.

41:26

I was trying to explain what's the the

41:28

stink smells like to him and always like.

41:31

It smells. Like rotten palm and he's

41:33

like so you're over exaggerate. I'm like. I'm

41:35

not. That's what it smells like.

41:37

It's not like it's gone bad,

41:40

you know? Yeah, yeah. like it's.

41:42

That sister a deeply unpleasant smell.

41:44

And god, city planners. And like

41:46

the Nineteen sixties in these third

41:48

Us when. Like. What have? we? Put these on

41:50

every block? They're pretty and they're cheap. Who cares

41:52

as the sting of like was. Finally

41:55

more and more seats are starting to like

41:58

outright ban them and think. Good. We

42:00

we need to have like a bounty

42:02

on there was like yeah. Tear.

42:05

It down plan to better tree like

42:07

there with they should have grants. For this

42:09

you know, like we should be doing something about

42:11

both of. Us it remind me very much

42:13

as I hear a New York City we

42:15

have spotted lantern flight invasive species. that's very

42:17

bad for a loss of our local flora

42:19

and fauna. I truly haven't felt New Yorkers

42:22

as united since Nine Eleven when you see

42:24

a sided lantern fly on a sidewalk and

42:26

like kids and old people and dogs and

42:28

ladies are all just like who's gonna get

42:30

it in like were also excited to stop

42:32

on the lantern fly. we didn't need to

42:34

come together against the breadth repair more. Amanda

42:37

and even common. Enemy and the common

42:39

enemy is incident these of seems existing

42:41

mattingly true were com bubble we would

42:43

have asked have this unlocked the whole

42:45

with them yet and than what we

42:47

should be doing. Is is replacing every

42:49

bradford pair with an American chestnut tree.

42:51

But that's besides the point I said.

42:54

You know is really, really hope within

42:56

our lifetimes. We get to see that on.

42:58

It's not the darling says the eight anymore.

43:00

I know that there was some recent changes

43:02

to but that that's anyway. They that in

43:05

a modified. American chestnut that am going to

43:07

be resistant. To the test Nutley, I

43:09

am praying that was in my lifetime

43:11

I get to edo start planting some

43:13

of those. Yes, Agreed. Strongly agreed. Okay,

43:15

but that we've we've done our forge

43:17

in a corner brand take us out.

43:19

Of Origin corner with a little i go to

43:21

Flourish or something like that. You've.

43:24

Been listening to Foraging Corner. Brought

43:27

to you by spirits. I.

43:33

Would love to talk more about horror

43:35

and particularly like the horror of fairy

43:37

tales and how we can read tell

43:39

them in a way that captures them

43:41

as queer horror. like you mentioned before,

43:43

we took our little break. Fairy Tales

43:45

of always been. Extremely dark. and it's

43:48

because a lot of them started

43:50

as oral traditions. And just

43:52

like a working class kind of

43:54

story. So naturally. There is always this kind

43:56

of like level of like it's horning your than

43:58

you thought it was gonna be. The story that

44:00

we would tell children around the fire, right?

44:03

It is kind of evolved into this

44:05

very like hi I see like the

44:07

Victorians really did this where they like

44:09

have created the fairytale to be this

44:11

like very high brow like work of

44:13

art sort of thing right and I

44:15

am very curious not to say that

44:17

like Victorian age stuff was not clear

44:19

on it's own to there's plenty of

44:22

like queerness in a lot of the

44:24

stories that we get out that era

44:26

but is there a method in your

44:28

mind of ten of taking these. Stories

44:30

that were. Used up, you

44:32

know, kind of gentrified in a

44:35

way and now like reclaiming them

44:37

as like the the gritty, horny

44:39

fairy tales of your but now

44:41

queer The mean specifically for like

44:43

retelling of existing. Yeah, I think

44:45

so cause we we talked about

44:48

Nino. That's the flexibility of fairytales

44:50

is that they can constantly be

44:52

retooled in that way. so I'm

44:54

I'm very curious at we'll We'll

44:56

talk about retailing's and then we'll

44:58

talk about like using the. Framework

45:01

of the Fairytale to create originals

45:03

like you do. Yeah, yeah, I

45:05

think there's lots of different ways to

45:07

go about this. I feel like the

45:09

the easiest path in the path that

45:11

most authors When they're like doing a

45:13

revised, clear version of an existing fairy

45:15

tales. you can do some specific gender

45:18

swaps, edu, competitive, like, turned you know,

45:20

a prince and princess into differences in

45:22

a princess or something like that. It's

45:24

kind of like the step one level

45:26

of air that's like the easiest person

45:28

to do. and also the thing that

45:30

I seem most. People reach for when

45:33

they're starting off years or something wrong

45:35

with that? That sort of like complete

45:37

early. Things, but I think we

45:39

can go further than that. I'm

45:42

the thing that I think is

45:44

fruitful and leads to more deep

45:46

and layered storytelling is when you

45:49

start really reaching into the allegories

45:51

in these fairy tales and start

45:53

really thinking about like, what are

45:55

we actually talking about, What do

45:58

these characters represents and. How

46:00

can I weep? The narrative frameworks

46:02

here and the characters positions in

46:04

order to talk and not just

46:06

about normalizing ah like you know,

46:08

homosexual relationships or things like that

46:10

but also getting into like the

46:12

heart of like the weird or

46:14

perks of being a query trans

46:16

person. On by. Think about this,

46:19

especially when we email Think about

46:21

and in a storytelling and about

46:23

are trans narratives in fairy tales

46:25

were again there's the easy route

46:27

where you just kind of swap

46:29

some centers. Around and like call

46:31

it a day But also there's so

46:33

much which weird gritty complications that come

46:36

into play when you are positioning

46:38

yourself as a as a transfer since

46:40

I am, when you are shifting between

46:42

genders and when you are experiencing the

46:45

world Outside of these two of

46:47

binaries this categories and there's so much

46:49

of that experience that can on the

46:51

level of allegory be brought into the

46:54

story if you're willing to go

46:56

at it in a i like more

46:58

complicated and more unexpected ways so it's

47:00

all about the allegory. For me, it's

47:03

all about you know, diving into

47:05

that allegory and also not. Being

47:07

afraid to get weird with Edge

47:09

of the Case and think of

47:11

storytellers. We have to be willing to

47:13

take risks and we have to be

47:15

willing to edo go down unexpected pads

47:17

and take our readers to places that

47:19

they haven't seen before and maybe have

47:21

not experienced before. and we have to

47:23

be honest with ourselves about like maybe

47:25

not always. I'm having a perfect clean

47:27

resolution to everything that we are encountering.

47:29

So that's another big part of a

47:31

to his. Are you willing to take

47:33

the fairytale to a place where you

47:35

are not playing a neat little. Bow on

47:37

everything in terms of the resolution. Are you

47:40

willing? To Go landed in a place where

47:42

it's a little bit messier and it's a

47:44

little bit harder to categorize. I'm nuts the

47:46

area where I i feel like that's rich

47:49

fertile soil for and like weird and slim

47:51

clear storytelling of the type that I love

47:53

to see out in the world are in

47:55

I do think especially. Horror does that really

47:58

well because it's so. Much easier to. Give

48:00

yourself permission to play around with the

48:02

moral positioning of things and to get

48:04

into that likes. Weird. Subtext

48:06

that becomes really juicy in the

48:08

narrative through telling. As years speaking

48:10

I am also thinking a lot

48:12

about the ties or maybe the

48:15

tensions between us, the kinds of

48:17

like clearing and retelling and like

48:19

sistine of tropes and tales and

48:21

your work process as one of

48:23

strikes me as particularly kind of

48:25

open and work in progress and

48:27

maybe even serialize where you know

48:29

you said at the top of

48:31

the episode you're sharing, you know.

48:33

Drawings. On Twitter you are sharing your audience. You

48:36

are coming back to them and circling around them.

48:38

And kind of like working on them to a

48:40

certain extent. Not in public, but your process is

48:42

visible to people who wants. How does that relate

48:44

to the work that you make? Is that attention?

48:46

Is it a plus? Is it just kind of

48:48

like how you do it by now. I

48:51

like about it is especially when I'm

48:53

doing the like twitterverse and of these

48:56

were it's like okay I'm trying to

48:58

like finish coloring one page per hour

49:00

and and I'm posting it on line

49:02

in real time as I finish each

49:04

page on The thing that's been so

49:06

useful for me as a storyteller. About

49:08

that is I start getting real

49:10

time reaction from readers all over

49:12

the place are people are commenting,

49:14

people are responding to the story

49:16

on a page by page basis

49:18

and that has taught nice sooo

49:21

much as a storyteller about like

49:23

granular level choices that you make

49:25

when you are constructing a narrative

49:27

and how different readers are going

49:29

to interpret them and respond to

49:31

them on a like page by

49:33

page basis. so on like practical

49:35

level. for me as a like

49:37

writer. In an artist it is bed so

49:40

so so useful to have that real time

49:42

interaction with readers. And it's one of the

49:44

things that I love about the story. To

49:46

like you know if I can pull it

49:48

off were like I'm fooling readers in the

49:51

way that I wanted to on this particular

49:53

page or like either widely down a clue

49:55

and people are picking up on it Aired

49:57

yes like the field It On so it's

49:59

really. Useful on that front. And I

50:01

think it's also do something about see realize

50:04

storytelling that I think really sticks in people's

50:06

minds in a way that can be

50:08

different from a story where it's kind of

50:10

one and done. You sit down and read

50:12

it and that it's over and you put

50:15

it down and move on. Because a serialized

50:17

storyteller, it's like you are there, was

50:19

the author in real time and away and

50:21

you are thinking more actively about where is

50:24

the story going? Well, what are the characters

50:26

going to be doing? What is coming

50:28

next? Your brain is kind of turning. Along

50:30

with the author as you are reading through

50:33

the story so the story ends up pena

50:35

taking up more space in your head as

50:37

he were experiencing it. Or and that's one

50:39

of the things that I think is beautiful.

50:42

A Ballots are you know what comics in

50:44

particular where you are updating thing slowly on

50:46

this page by page basis? Your kind of

50:48

dripping. It's the story bit by bit into

50:51

readers minds and getting to see how they

50:53

react to it. And that is Ben. This

50:55

a beautiful part of the process and not

50:58

a thing I would ever like. No regrets

51:00

whatsoever. Louis is like very high stress for

51:02

me is that authors sometimes lunch or all

51:04

were like especially if I ever reveal where

51:07

I don't want readers to guess it when

51:09

I'm like one or two pages away from

51:11

that reveal and I'm like looking at the

51:13

comments and I'm like. Are you

51:15

doing so? get at least

51:18

it's. It's like stressful to like to

51:20

see it up be able to see

51:22

a drill. Pipe how people are reacting to this

51:24

would be like did I do my job right? And

51:26

bed if you didn't like. oh thank

51:28

goodness. and if you didn't like crap

51:31

still gives Paxton seats that things up

51:33

a but still I guess. I also

51:35

think I'm a person that tends to,

51:37

I guess plot twists the way ahead

51:39

of time in like movies and television

51:41

and books and stuff like that. I

51:43

think it's actually a sign that. The

51:45

author did a good job in lane the blueprints

51:47

for what the reveal is going to be or

51:50

with the twist is going to be. Because

51:52

if he just comes out of nowhere as

51:54

a person, I'm like so there was no

51:56

indication that. That would be the thing. So

51:58

like I actually think like. It Only

52:00

a few people are getting it, but

52:02

someone is getting it. I'm like, okay,

52:04

I did a pretty good job with

52:07

that them because that is means that

52:09

you followed the hints that I laid

52:11

down already. Yes, yeah, no, I'm I'm.

52:13

Absolutely with you there. I feel like the

52:15

percentage for me as always like like roughly.

52:17

Five percent like and by percent of

52:19

my readers like pick up where I'm

52:21

going and they guess it correctly. It

52:23

like good That means like I did

52:25

structure it correctly and he though he

52:27

were you you are too smart for

52:29

the and sit for you. But but

52:31

yeah it's zero percent of readers see

52:34

what's coming down the pipeline that probably

52:36

needs that. Ah you. Beat didn't

52:38

do their jobs is public Wow they missed

52:40

all those clue what else would I hit

52:42

some to a this yeah yachts and or

52:44

something that like T V writers love to

52:47

do especially where they like are trolling. read

52:49

it and they're like oh no user like

52:51

to be but Six Six nine correctly guessed

52:53

the direction that we're doing with the series

52:56

finale so that we have to go to

52:58

completely different direction. it's lot of out to

53:00

the Fat The Settlers and pulled the Alex

53:02

Hirsch. From Gravity Falls where you that

53:05

like secretly a leak seek of you

53:07

know screenshots to throw people off the

53:09

scent and still do that with that

53:11

you are planning on doing. Which

53:14

like is one of my

53:16

favorite just on line television

53:18

history things. It's truly. Implacable.

53:20

Oh, that's incredible. I didn't know

53:22

about outline. Oh. Yeah there were like

53:25

oh you know that this character must

53:27

have a brother or twin or something

53:29

like that and then he was like

53:31

shit people can have guessed it. Ah,

53:33

here's a screenshot of a different character

53:35

who very clearly is doing the things

53:37

that you think this brothers gonna do.

53:39

And it was. Is perfection. Truly

53:41

perfection. Mel. This

53:44

was such a great conversation. I'm so

53:46

glad that I stumbled on your book

53:48

and that bookstore up in Burlington, Vermont

53:50

and we we reached out and we

53:52

had to hear on the shelves. If

53:54

people like to find. More of your

53:56

work or where you are online. Where can they

53:59

do so? Her I'm pretty easy

54:01

to find and most social media. You

54:03

know I'm at know, Gilman on Twitter,

54:05

at At and Gilman on Instagram and

54:07

and for sure if you are interested

54:10

in ah you know reading the book

54:12

a fairytale so we been talking about

54:14

other ever After is easy to order

54:16

through any local bookstore is also a

54:18

lot of the comics are still floating

54:20

around online. ah you know that was

54:22

one of the nice things about this

54:24

book project is that I still got

54:26

to keep the comics that originated online

54:29

online for free. So if you are

54:31

on tumbler and looking for. Me there,

54:33

Mel Gilman. You can still read at least

54:35

half of the. Stories from the

54:37

book in their original tumbler

54:39

format since infancy. Wonderful. Oh

54:41

my gosh, Mail Thank you

54:44

So so. Much for joining us.

54:46

This was truly a delay. A

54:48

hot so what's were happy be This

54:50

is a lot of fun. Will next

54:53

time you are out in the woods

54:55

foraging for stories and other creepy things

54:57

that go bump in the night. Remember

54:59

Stink creepy.