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1:11

Welcome to SpyCast, the official

1:13

podcast of the International Spy

1:15

Museum. I'm your

1:17

host, Dr. Andrew Hammond, the

1:19

museum's historian and curator. Each

1:22

week we explore some aspect

1:24

of the past, present or

1:26

future of intelligence and espionage.

1:29

Please subscribe to the show if you

1:31

haven't already and consider leaving us a

1:34

five-star review so other listeners can find

1:36

us. If you want

1:38

to dig deeper into the content of the episode,

1:40

you can find links to

1:42

further readings, related podcasts

1:45

and full transcripts at

1:47

the cyberwire.com/podcast slash SpyCast.

1:50

Coming up next on SpyCars. intelligence

2:01

questions including the morale

2:04

of Hector who was there from the

2:06

very beginning. This

2:15

week's guest is Dr. Ursula

2:17

M. Weyoder. She is

2:19

a clinical psychologist who has served at

2:21

the Central Intelligence Agency for

2:24

over 25 years in the

2:26

medical, operational and analytic functions.

2:29

She is the first women psychologist promoted

2:32

to the Senior Intelligence Service

2:34

at CIA and was

2:36

awarded the George H. W.

2:38

Bush Award for Excellence in

2:40

Counterterrorism and the

2:42

Sherman Kent Award for her

2:44

contributions to the academic literature

2:47

and scholarship on psychology and

2:49

intelligence. In this

2:51

week's episode you'll learn how

2:54

psychology can be useful to

2:56

national security, historical

2:58

examples of leadership

3:01

psychology, leadership personality

3:03

assessments and the Cuban

3:05

missile crisis and

3:07

psychoanalytic theory and

3:09

espionage. The original

3:12

podcast on intelligence since

3:14

2006, we are Spycast.

3:17

Now sit back, relax and

3:20

enjoy the show. Well

3:24

I'm so pleased to speak to you today Ursula we've

3:27

been trying to make this happen for a while but

3:29

I'm really glad that we finally got around to doing

3:31

it. I am too. And

3:33

I just wondered, I think a good place to start off,

3:36

why do we study the psychology of

3:38

world leaders? I mean I have a

3:41

few intuitive ideas about why we made

3:43

it but let's, we're here because you're a

3:45

professional so why do we do that? So

3:49

we begin by crisis

3:52

in the global or the national

3:55

scale and on

3:57

that level you look to see if

4:00

There's something about the leader's

4:02

personality, background, behavior

4:05

in the past that can help you

4:08

understand, help our leaders

4:10

understand how this person

4:12

is going to react in that

4:14

current context, whether they're economic or

4:16

politics. So when there's a crisis,

4:18

it's very helpful to know about

4:21

the leader's past behavior. So that's

4:24

one reason. Another reason would be if

4:26

they're going to be engagements or encounters

4:29

with the leader. So it's

4:31

helpful to know what interests the

4:33

person, how they negotiate, if they

4:36

have any trigger points, if

4:38

there are things that they like and don't like, how

4:41

they are likely to approach us

4:45

or the nation that's being consulted

4:47

with by psychologists. So

4:49

for example, some nations

4:52

like to work

4:54

out if a leader has a phobia and

4:58

try to manipulate that. For

5:00

example, other nations wouldn't

5:02

do that, would do the opposite, or

5:05

maybe it depends on the context. And it's also

5:07

helpful to know if there are any medical issues

5:10

that need to be tended to. So it's

5:14

very helpful to have this data

5:16

for encounters. Lastly, it's

5:18

important to know what the general attitude

5:20

is towards, in our case, the United

5:23

States. And in

5:25

particular, perhaps the leadership of the United

5:27

States are those who will be engaging

5:29

with the individual. They had

5:31

to be very tactful in communicating to

5:34

your customers. But that's a

5:37

question they always are interested

5:39

in. Now, if you're assessing

5:42

an encounter between two leaders that

5:44

are not from the

5:46

United States, in my case, then

5:48

you can talk about how they get

5:50

along with each other and what you

5:52

can expect there and what Those

5:55

other leaders might want afterwards or

5:57

before from the United States. Though

6:00

there are many reasons why this

6:02

is done, but. She's. You're

6:04

going to understand a nation. It's

6:07

helpful to understand the leadership. Bush.

6:09

You going to understand A. Non

6:12

nation state opponents. That

6:15

the to terrorist group. It's important to know the

6:17

leadership there as well. When. You

6:19

assume full build their A.M. or

6:21

American sentiment, the most of the

6:24

countries that would not try to

6:26

talk on someone's for me. Serious.

6:29

the same as incident that spin

6:31

in the news. So I'm taking

6:33

it from there about how I

6:35

was land and may put in

6:37

knowing that Angela Merkel was phobic

6:40

about dogs. Had a

6:42

huge dog seated right next to her.

6:44

An encounter with him. So.

6:47

Son to engage in

6:50

triggering are infuriating or

6:52

inflicting. First sequel: Who's

6:55

On Leaders. But. That's

6:57

usually not productive in the long term

6:59

if you do that. And it's borders

7:02

sometimes that on professional. Ultimately, you were

7:04

on a relationship. The. You

7:06

can work with for long

7:08

time is your world leader.

7:11

And but it's good to know the triggers

7:13

this the the so points as well as

7:15

hobbies and. But. They like.

7:18

And you mentioned customers there for

7:20

with customers for this problem be

7:22

with be for example though berms

7:24

the Cia director he's going to

7:26

be on intelligence leader from another

7:29

country and on We can comment

7:31

on current biographies and so forth

7:33

but I'm just giving us an

7:35

example Cia Director with present. At

7:38

the other from are a good gives a

7:40

variety of the dates of customers but consume

7:42

this paper products. So. It.

7:45

Is any of the

7:47

senior level leaders of

7:49

the United States? But

7:52

the level of classifications and that

7:54

type of product that you've written?

7:56

well. To. Some degree

7:58

define the audience. So.

8:02

If. It's serve for the president. It

8:04

goes in the specific channel. If it's

8:06

for members of Congress, would go in

8:09

another. But. The personality is the

8:11

personality and so how you got

8:13

there in terms of data is

8:15

classified on a variety of levels,

8:17

but the document itself. Can.

8:19

Be also classified on a

8:21

lot of levels with what's

8:24

classified stripped out in various

8:26

ways. So it's any one

8:28

of our leaders and United

8:30

States I'm I'm the who

8:32

could use to. The information

8:34

is provided writing. Sometimes it's

8:36

provided directly. Direct I will

8:39

say as a director dates with

8:41

lot of fun because politicians love

8:43

to gossip about how better suits

8:45

or so and it's. It it

8:47

is assessing a person in

8:49

their own domain so the

8:51

the understand things. Well.

8:55

And have his birth. And for

8:57

missing convince a the customers on normal briefing

8:59

as are are are rotten. Product.

9:02

Of a booth to it's bones. It's.

9:04

Both and it also does depend.

9:07

On a on the context but of

9:09

thought the for Us leaders you. A

9:13

brief seeing in psychology.

9:16

Is something that works

9:18

very well because people

9:20

are primed to assess

9:22

each other. And.

9:25

And so. If

9:27

you. Are talking about

9:29

an individual and there's a lot

9:31

of back and forth. You can

9:34

open up the personality in a

9:36

way that that helps the customer.

9:39

For. Usually there's also a bit and product

9:41

that they can carry away with themselves

9:43

and is classified as a level that's

9:45

appropriate and and also for me as

9:47

something. Missing a leader that back and

9:49

forth can be very helpful because sometimes

9:52

I'm told information it wasn't aware. That.

9:54

Can we have folded into. Into.

9:57

The assessment semi happened yet.

10:00

The what you Fear is a super His

10:02

met the individual. Sometimes.

10:04

Extensively was friends with the person

10:06

that you're assessing and the have

10:08

it wrong hasn't happened yet but

10:10

that would be a wonderful correct

10:12

is. On although of. Who.

10:15

Would also be a failure to the great. Com.

10:18

I also to say that. When.

10:21

I do a psych assessment. I.

10:23

Know my job is complete.

10:26

When. The. Person gets

10:28

it. Usually

10:30

based on their previous experience with

10:33

the individual as just framed things

10:35

and away and organize things that

10:37

away that they might not have

10:39

the for. So let's say for

10:41

example a leader has a paranoid

10:43

streak. And you describe

10:45

how paranoia. Is

10:47

something that is. Caused.

10:51

By. Specific.

10:53

Events It's something that's procedure is with

10:55

some say. In this case it is.

10:57

By. The way paranoia is known as a

10:59

political disease or to saleh is a plot

11:01

and so every single politician understands that. but

11:04

if he explained how them I tried to

11:06

thinking of the individual. Lights.

11:08

Go off in your eyes and see

11:10

his has seen that and wants to

11:12

feel like if pressed it to my

11:14

my work is done and then it

11:16

gets really interesting because I always prefer

11:18

I can with her latest battle is

11:20

so political analyst. Then. The second

11:23

part happens. How all of this

11:25

translate into political behavior? Which. Is

11:27

this behavior to a psychologist? But it was. That's.

11:30

The core job. For.

11:32

The politician or for the customer.

11:35

It so it's interesting to see that

11:37

dynamic unfold and. I become

11:40

almost irrelevant, but it's very rewarding to

11:42

watch because you feel like he's had

11:44

an impact. If

11:46

the site assessment. Is. Not

11:48

conquer with political behavior that at such

11:51

assessment needs to be. Changed

11:53

hasn't happened yet, but someday, point.

11:56

Them. out as a goal for the product

11:58

of i'm guessing but i'm fairly depending on

12:00

the reason and

12:02

who you're giving it to and so

12:04

forth, but does it follow a particular

12:06

format? CIA has

12:09

a formalized

12:11

format, very

12:13

rigorous format, of

12:16

presenting information and

12:18

a very succinct format

12:21

because we recognize that our

12:24

customers are very busy. And

12:26

so in the work of

12:29

the Central Intelligence Agency, your

12:31

key assessment would be up

12:33

front, bottom line up front,

12:35

blah. And then after that, you

12:37

have a little more freedom to

12:39

describe what is most

12:41

critical in this person's

12:43

personality. And with

12:46

psychology, it's interesting because not

12:48

at CIA, but in psychology

12:50

in general, you begin with

12:53

a long biography of the person. And

12:56

really, if that's written well, then when you finally

12:58

get to the psychology, it makes sense why the

13:00

person is the way they are. Just

13:03

to clarify for listeners as well, you

13:05

work for the CIA, right? And

13:08

you're involved in operations.

13:10

You're not in the CIA history

13:12

office looking at

13:14

historical examples. You're working in ongoing operations and

13:17

so forth. Just clarify your position and what

13:19

you do as much as you can. I

13:21

do look at historical examples for

13:23

their own sake. It's fun for me to

13:25

do that. It's

13:29

kind of honing my crap and it's just

13:31

fun. But let me very briefly describe what

13:33

the work is of leadership analysis. So

13:37

my career has been

13:39

first as a medical officer, as a

13:42

clinical psychologist. I've been, I was hired

13:44

as a clinical psychologist. So my mothership,

13:46

as we say, is medical services of

13:49

the agency, but most of my

13:51

career has been forward deployed. So

13:54

after 9-11, I was quickly And

13:57

unexpectedly moved into operations and did a-

14:00

The Air Operations supplying clinical psychology

14:02

to all sorts of context. Before

14:04

that I was in the Counter

14:06

Intelligence Center where I met. Come.

14:09

Intelligence officers and had the

14:11

opportunity to meet incarcerated i'm

14:14

spies you espouse. And

14:16

after I had the work and

14:18

counterterrorism after years of that I

14:20

studied psychology of counterterrorism and what

14:22

it does, the people engaged in

14:24

it for year of the thera

14:27

substantial reward. There are very real

14:29

challenges and toll at all I

14:31

can be taken. To. Then

14:33

I moved into. Leadership.

14:35

Analysis I had done. Analysis

14:38

of Terrorism. Leaders.

14:41

Same. Works as different crowd as

14:43

you have and I decided I'd

14:46

done quite a bit of. And.

14:49

Then I moved into for five

14:51

years doing set assessments and of

14:53

leaders into the unit devices sounded

14:55

by my dissertation adviser had to

14:57

dissertation of I said dr germ

14:59

posts and document often men who

15:01

is it is an expert on

15:03

leadership. Ahmet, George Washington

15:05

University way back in the day

15:08

and a asked and now I'm

15:10

I'm in other functions. Mm Kay

15:12

said other functions. I deserve a

15:15

complete fellowship on technology. And.

15:18

Brain Technologies and and how

15:20

on the dangers that are

15:22

happening now because it's is

15:24

exploding everywhere. Can.

15:27

You tell our our listeners was

15:29

the approval of the people who

15:31

are dunes someone of things to

15:33

you and by the i mean

15:36

there's not just use your not

15:38

the sole psychosis me others to

15:40

the team and the lieutenant Different

15:42

things you mention sense Terrorism tens

15:44

of thousands leadership analysis doesn't idea

15:46

of like the structural thought. So

15:49

I'd be happy to. So.

15:51

Let's begin with the analysts. To.

15:53

The analysts a broken into

15:56

different fields. I

15:58

work mostly. Where. Sometimes.

16:01

Military and City, but mostly

16:03

with political analysts somewhat leadership

16:06

analysts When I was. doing

16:08

his site assessment, Because.

16:11

You cannot understand a psyche if you

16:13

don't understand the context and the culture

16:15

and history and all the rest. Are

16:18

and the current political

16:20

struggles and challenges and

16:22

com successes of the

16:24

individual So. In

16:26

a Psych assessment. Ah, We

16:28

will bring in a leadership. Analysts.

16:31

and other. Experts endless

16:33

needed to do the psych assesses,

16:36

The. Leadership analysts do.

16:39

Leadership. Analysis as and their their

16:41

main product is called the leadership

16:43

Profile In his is the. Most.

16:47

Asked for and successful processed in

16:49

the agency. For. Two

16:51

reasons one is whenever customers having

16:53

an end to to the leadership

16:56

profile is very helpful. The other

16:58

thing is whenever a customer. Is

17:00

doing a profile? He or she wants to

17:02

Kind of like a People magazine. Percent of

17:05

the hypothesis. You know what's up with some

17:07

America? As of the and. I would feel

17:09

the same. I got profile some nice i call

17:11

it was counterparts. Another law because of the

17:13

prior to gloss they poop the those who

17:15

are totally sonos. For another, yes, Mrs lay

17:18

overnight of depressive episode and because lc

17:20

things that we don't see in the

17:22

behave it's it's with their profession is

17:24

so. The. Leadership profile is

17:26

for one is a better term

17:28

gain. Political. Biography.

17:32

Of the leader. It's

17:35

very hard to write because can only be

17:37

one pages been back care But it's

17:39

a political biography of the leader and that

17:41

includes what's the current. Politically

17:44

she saw that this leaders dealing with.

17:47

and how and encounters this

17:49

leader might have had before

17:51

where's our government with other

17:53

governments whatever isbell events so

17:55

that let us say i'm

17:57

a member of the cabinet

18:00

who's meeting with the person knows what

18:03

that person is all about politically and

18:05

a little bit personally, but on the

18:07

political behavior front. Okay. Mark

18:11

Green once said to a friend, I'm sorry I

18:13

wrote such a long letter, but I didn't have

18:15

time to make it short. It's

18:17

very hard to write one of these. Now

18:20

there's a little bit at the end

18:22

about spouses and children. That's a kind

18:24

of tee up conversation perhaps in the

18:26

courtesies. And if there's a known health

18:28

issue, it will be,

18:30

but carefully, okay, it's

18:33

not a full health issue to protect

18:35

the privacy of the individual because these

18:37

products are sometimes unclassified, but sometimes not.

18:39

But we try to keep them minimal

18:42

in terms of personal information. And

18:45

that's not the case with the psych

18:47

assessment. The psychological assessment will

18:49

be written by clinical psychologists

18:52

or sometimes psychiatrists, but people

18:54

who are licensed medical professionals

18:56

in the domain of

18:59

psychology. So it's kind

19:02

of a strict criterion. And there isn't that

19:04

large of a team. We also

19:06

have psychologists who

19:08

are social or industrial organizational

19:11

psychologists who do group level

19:13

assessments, not just of

19:15

the leader, but of the dynamics around the

19:17

leader. So the methods that

19:20

are applied and the need for the psych

19:22

assessment is truly a personality assessment,

19:24

a little bit of historical. But

19:27

it's a, and that's, it's

19:29

not medical because we can't diagnose without meeting

19:31

the person. But if there

19:33

are some medical

19:36

personality disorder, diagnostic

19:39

issues that

19:41

are evident, then you write those

19:43

in in a way that's not

19:47

medically, that another

19:50

psychologist would detect what you're talking about.

19:52

But it's not, it's not put in

19:54

medical terms. I often would

19:57

laugh about how I'm writing this document.

20:00

encode for other psychologists.

20:03

So we always meet each other's reports and try to

20:06

tease out what the diagnosis is. If you've done a

20:08

good job, they can do that. But obviously,

20:11

the customers don't want all

20:13

of that jargon. So together, these

20:15

documents are quite powerful. The

20:17

psych assessments are very, very carefully

20:19

and tightly held,

20:23

and are classified at a high level.

20:26

Every intelligence officer has

20:29

this fantasy about seeing the file that's kept

20:31

on them by the opponent. It's

20:33

like the Cyclops, right? If you know when you're going

20:36

to die, that's all you can think about. After you

20:38

think about it, you decide you don't want to see

20:40

it. I suspect

20:42

that political leaders have a similar interest

20:45

in the psych assessments that are written

20:47

about them. That's

20:50

frequently a playful question I get

20:52

when I'm briefing customers. Are

20:56

you doing this about me? I

20:59

say, no, I'm not doing that. But

21:01

this is being done. Then

21:04

one customer in the room, they

21:07

start diagnosing each other. It can be

21:09

hilarious. But these are

21:11

two different approaches,

21:15

and they overlap completely. As I said,

21:17

the best briefings and product is producing

21:20

them side by side. Because if

21:22

the psychology is correct, it'll

21:24

match what's in the political behavior. The

21:27

political behavior will become a resonance.

21:29

They understand the psychology and

21:31

a little more predictive because

21:34

they understand what's driving the person. Can

21:37

you tell a listener some of the types

21:39

of people that you have brief? I'm not

21:42

mentioning any names just like positions, like a

21:44

senator or a congressman or a leader.

21:47

The best that I can

21:49

do here is think about the senior

21:52

leaders of the US government, particularly on

21:54

the executive side, but not only on

21:56

the executive side. And of course,

21:58

I've done some briefing internationally. So,

22:01

for your listeners,

22:03

I would say, in any country,

22:05

we really, but let's stick with the United States.

22:07

Who do you think would really need this information?

22:10

The president. Mm-hmm. And

22:12

the cabinet. I walked

22:14

through your wonderful exhibit on the

22:17

Cuban Missile Crisis. I would recommend

22:19

it to anyone who comes to

22:21

Washington to have a look at

22:24

it, just come to

22:26

the museum for a lot of things, but that

22:29

one is particularly interesting to me because

22:31

it contains psychosessment of

22:34

Kennedy by the

22:36

Soviets and of Khrushchev

22:40

by the Americans, by

22:42

the U.S. And so Kennedy

22:45

was very interested

22:47

in psychology and also

22:51

letters written during

22:54

the Cuban Missile Crisis by

22:56

both leaders, although there was

22:58

a debate in the

23:00

middle of a crisis about whether some of

23:02

those Khrushchev letters were written by him or

23:04

were written by people who wanted

23:06

to take it in tact, the

23:09

more nationalist type. And

23:11

again, psychologists and leadership analysts would have worked

23:13

very closely together to assess whether these letters

23:15

were genuine or not. They're right there to

23:18

be read in your exhibit. And

23:21

the cabinet finally decided to go with

23:23

the first letter, which was more peaceable

23:25

and ignore the rest and respond because

23:27

they understood that Khrushchev had to do

23:29

some of the heavy-hitting nationalist talk

23:32

publicly. So

23:34

that's really interesting. It's also

23:37

interesting to see how the

23:39

profile matches the letters, the behavior

23:41

in the letters and how complex

23:43

it is, but helpful it is

23:45

to know what the profiles are. So I

23:48

don't know if I want to tee it up

23:50

too much because I know it spoiled a surprise

23:53

for your listeners. Globalisation

24:01

has been referred to as

24:03

the compression of space and

24:05

time. The Cuban

24:07

Missile Crisis exhibit that we have

24:10

at the International Spy Museum, which

24:12

Arch to

24:26

Cross the Atlantic, it might

24:28

arrive in England, communicate with government

24:30

and the military leadership, then

24:33

relay that information back to the

24:35

commanders in the field. Essentially,

24:38

if you were on a diet,

24:40

you might have lost, say, 20

24:42

pounds by the time this feedback

24:45

loop was closed. In

24:47

other words, a lot can change during

24:50

this time period. It

24:52

also allows a lot

24:54

of time for deliberation,

24:57

reflection and deeper insight.

25:00

Fast forward to the Cuban Missile Crisis,

25:03

and space and time shrunk

25:06

drastically. In

25:08

fact, the entire crisis is

25:10

often deemed to have lasted a mere 13

25:12

days. The

25:15

time it took to communicate from

25:17

Washington to Moscow was hours at

25:19

most, and this would

25:21

be sped up further after the crisis

25:23

with the installation of a famous hotline.

25:27

Graft onto this the

25:29

fact that nuclear weapons can travel vast

25:32

distances and extremely

25:35

compressed windows of time.

25:38

Even intercontinental missiles, which, yes,

25:40

might have to travel from

25:43

one entire continent to another.

25:46

If we are talking about

25:48

submarine-launched missiles, which might

25:50

have closed the gap between the

25:53

launching platform and the target immensely,

25:55

or even missiles based off of the coast of Florida,

25:58

we are talking about the future of the world. about

26:00

a very, very narrow

26:02

window of time within which to

26:04

make a decision. What

26:07

if you get it wrong? What

26:09

if you over or under interpret

26:11

a threat? What

26:13

if we just need to slow this

26:15

whole thing down to a

26:18

crawl to take the heat and the emotion

26:20

out of it? But

26:22

what if we are dealing with

26:24

periods of time so constrained that

26:26

there is no built-in safety valve?

26:29

In that kind of context, as you can

26:31

imagine, any shred

26:33

of informational advantage, any

26:36

scintilla of intelligence that might

26:38

give you an edge or

26:40

a more complete understanding is

26:42

truly welcome. This is

26:44

the world that we still live

26:47

in. We'll

27:02

be right back after this. This

27:11

episode is brought to you by

27:13

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27:15

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27:52

I think the Cuban muscle crises

27:54

are a great example. So you

27:57

mentioned crisis at the beginning of

27:59

our conversation. And to

28:01

me if I think about the Cuban

28:03

myth how crisis is, it's almost like

28:05

the most high stakes game of poker

28:07

that's ever existed because it's the potential

28:10

future of humanity that's on the line.

28:13

Yes. And in that kind

28:15

of context, any shred

28:17

of information that can give you a

28:21

better understanding of the environment and of

28:23

the person that you're playing poker with

28:25

is so important, right? And

28:28

to me, it makes sense why you'd want

28:30

to understand the opponent

28:33

that you're up against. Like who are

28:35

they in actuality as opposed to the

28:37

political theater, the banging machine on the

28:39

table, like what's going on at a

28:41

deeper level? And how they might see

28:43

you and be

28:45

misinterpreting you. So Kennedy

28:48

had famously

28:50

been engaged with Cuba before in

28:53

the Bay of Pigs, which obviously

28:55

was a disaster. So

28:57

a great political psychology

28:59

theory came out of it on groupthink.

29:02

And the president went to Eisenhower and

29:05

asked how to avoid that. And

29:09

Eisenhower gave him some tutoring

29:12

and mentoring, which turned out very well

29:14

during the Cuban missile crisis. Although

29:17

he wasn't a fan of the CIA for

29:19

a while there, but I'm glad I was still around

29:21

because we found the missiles. So

29:24

now from Khrushchev's perspective,

29:27

think about the Soviet behavior with all of their

29:29

neighbors. They didn't tolerate any of their

29:31

neighbors being unfriendly. They had

29:33

to be completely under the Soviet umbrella

29:36

on the Soviet front.

29:39

So Khrushchev's perspective would have been okay.

29:41

The young president tried this not

29:44

very well organized intrusion.

29:48

It failed and why didn't he send in

29:50

reinforcements? That's what we would have done. So

29:53

in Khrushchev's mind, that might have meant weakness.

29:57

And then President Kennedy had an engagement

29:59

with Khrushchev. in

30:01

Vienna afterwards, in Vienna, Austria,

30:03

in 19, let's see, yeah, the

30:05

Virginia, in 1960, 1961. And

30:10

that did not go well

30:13

from the American perspective. Kennedy

30:15

was very clear that he felt he had

30:18

failed because Chris Chefs spent the whole time

30:22

essentially pounding his shoe on the table,

30:24

lecturing him about and overriding

30:26

him. And now Kennedy

30:28

had thrown out his back, planting

30:34

a tree at a ceremony and was

30:36

in deep pain. In addition, he was

30:38

taking a cocktail of

30:41

medications. A lot of

30:43

people don't know that, but

30:45

President Kennedy was in pain through most of

30:47

his life, beginning at age 12. His

30:50

bones were brittle and his

30:52

body had been very damaged by

30:56

the primitive treatments that were available

30:58

for what turns out to be

31:00

a complex Addison's disease. So

31:02

that's why he constantly had back

31:05

trouble because his spinal bones

31:07

were very porous and brittle. He

31:10

was in pain a lot and he

31:12

was being badly treated by a physician

31:14

at the White House who just was

31:17

combining stimulants, hormones,

31:21

and opioids for pain. And

31:24

at one point his brother said, why are

31:26

you doing this? And he said, I don't care what it is. I

31:29

don't care if it's horse piss. It makes me feel better. He

31:31

was in that kind of pain. So

31:34

there have been scholarship scholars

31:40

who believe that part

31:42

of Kennedy's behavior during the

31:44

contact with Chris Chefs was because of all of

31:47

this, as well as Chris Chefs

31:49

behavior. But let's think about how Chris Chefs read

31:51

the president. Okay,

31:53

a very charming, affable person,

31:55

but incompetent, but weak, a

31:58

pacifist, a dove. So

32:00

that's what's coming at, from

32:02

that context, is how Khrushchev is coming

32:04

at Kennedy. And

32:07

that's where you can begin to see

32:09

where psychologists assessing the two could

32:12

have, for their own

32:15

nations, could have a real effect. Kennedy

32:18

very early on set a very firm tone

32:20

with the blockade, changing the

32:22

dynamic. And

32:24

kept control of

32:27

the dynamics of his cabinet in

32:29

a way that didn't happen during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

32:33

So that it's in

32:36

that kind of engagement that the war

32:38

can be very useful. But

32:41

remember, everything I said to you could

32:43

not have been worked out only by

32:45

a psychologist or psychiatrist. You have to

32:47

do that with somebody who understands the

32:49

culture, the nation, the history. Because

32:53

there's only a few psychologists actually doing this,

32:55

and we can't know every culture, every nation,

32:57

and every language. But that your

32:59

exhibit actually makes it, I

33:02

think, quite in a small amount of

33:04

space, quite eloquently laid out. Yeah,

33:06

that's one of my favorite exhibits that I

33:08

really enjoy. And I mean,

33:10

I think that's a good example because I've heard

33:13

you elsewhere say that, so

33:15

there's particular things that

33:17

are going on inside of people.

33:19

So it could be narcissism, paranoia,

33:22

Machiavellianism, etc. And

33:24

Kennedy coming across as affable

33:26

and charming and smiling for

33:29

people that have a

33:31

particular psychological profile. They interpret that as weakness.

33:34

But like you say, this is Khrushchev

33:36

misapprehending Kennedy because Kennedy's not the person for

33:38

what Khrushchev thinks he is. But because Kennedy's

33:41

came across a particular way, that's how he

33:43

reads them. Well, they

33:45

both had something in common. They were

33:47

both war veterans. And

33:51

so you begin with that.

33:54

Now Khrushchev was a self-made man,

33:56

quite brilliant. He was identified early

33:58

as... in

34:00

school as having a brilliant

34:02

mathematical mind. But because he

34:05

came from the lowest class

34:07

in his country, he

34:10

was not able to get

34:12

educated. And you see this

34:14

with a lot of leaders actually that they very

34:16

much want to be educated. Saddam

34:19

Hussein was that way, Abraham Lincoln was

34:21

that way. Over and over again, you

34:23

see them drive Mao Zedong to get

34:25

a higher education. He became a mining

34:27

engineer, which makes sense. He

34:29

built the beautiful Metro in

34:31

Moscow. It's gorgeous. Not

34:34

that I've seen it personally, but I've seen

34:36

lots of pictures. He

34:39

was an extrovert, okay? And he was

34:41

very volatile, but sometimes

34:44

in a cunning way. But

34:47

he has something to know about Khrushchev.

34:50

So after Sputnik,

34:53

which was a great success, the

34:55

first in space for the Soviets, they

34:58

founded what's now the famous quadrennial

35:02

piano competition, Tchaikovsky

35:05

Piano Competition. And the

35:07

very first one, 23-year-old, six foot three tall.

35:11

Texan Joseph Van Gleibern,

35:13

okay? Who obviously

35:15

played the piano like a genius, like

35:17

an angel. And he shows

35:19

up and he's a juliard

35:22

graduate and very gentle

35:24

tempered, completely apolitical. And

35:27

it's clear that they're in the presence of

35:29

genius. Okay, so there's

35:31

a big political issue now, right? This is

35:33

the first Tchaikovsky competition. And

35:36

here's a summary of it. It's

35:39

glowing. The Russian people

35:41

loved him because

35:43

he had that kind of personality. And

35:45

so Khrushchev is approached. And

35:48

by the way, the committee that judged

35:51

the competitors was

35:54

this luminous group of geniuses

35:56

in Russian music. Okay, so...

36:00

They approach Khrushchev and

36:02

they say, can we give this to

36:04

the First Ward? But of course the

36:06

Nationalists said, absolutely not. It's

36:09

not clear what really happened, but there

36:11

was back and forth. And

36:13

Khrushchev said, is he the best? And they said,

36:15

yes. So he said, give it to them. That's

36:19

Khrushchev. You have to understand that

36:21

if you want to understand the totality of

36:23

the man. And if

36:25

I urge your listeners to

36:27

go to YouTube and look up, Stan

36:30

Clyburn doing his post-competition

36:34

performance as Tchaikovsky, and you

36:37

can see Khrushchev looking

36:39

like a mining engineer of the Soviet era,

36:42

in the best seat in the house,

36:44

just kind of really into the music.

36:46

And it's a very interesting moment. So

36:50

that kind of data on

36:54

a leader is absolutely critical.

36:56

Now I brought some examples. I don't know if you'd like

36:59

to give this a try? Yes,

37:01

please. Let's talk about Cleopatra. Okay.

37:04

All right. So Cleopatra

37:07

had a relationship and

37:09

affair with Caesar. And

37:11

Caesar had been assassinated. And

37:14

she had a child, a son by

37:16

him, who was later killed

37:19

by Octavian, double royalty

37:21

there. But that's kind

37:23

of one of the tragedies of history. So

37:26

Anthony is now trying to

37:29

run Rome, if you will. And

37:31

he decides to

37:35

summon Cleopatra to meet with him because

37:37

he needed the resources of Egypt. She

37:40

was a great leader, an

37:42

empress, and there were great

37:44

riches in Egypt. It was

37:46

a breadbasket of that part

37:48

of the Mediterranean world. And

37:51

Anthony needed funds. So he summons her to meet

37:53

with him. And she puts

37:55

it off and puts it off because

37:57

she did. And with multiple excuses, finally.

38:00

she has to go. So

38:02

she goes up a river, she has to cross a

38:05

part of the Mediterranean and go up a

38:07

river to where Anthony is encamped with his

38:09

men. She arrives in

38:11

this gold covered barge, okay,

38:14

with multiple other barges behind her with

38:17

little boys painted in silver, you

38:19

know, with the feather fans, with

38:22

perfumes wafting across the water. The city

38:24

that Anthony was next to, they all

38:26

left, all the people left and were

38:28

lining, you know, the sides of the

38:30

river to watch this performance. And

38:33

music, I mean, every sensual

38:35

kind of accoutrement

38:37

you could think of was there. So

38:41

there she is, she arrives, the great queen. And

38:44

then she doesn't

38:47

go meet Anthony, she

38:49

decides to stay on her barge. And

38:52

he, being a courteous gentleman, comes

38:55

to meet her then. So he walks up.

38:58

And as he approaches the barge,

39:00

you have to think of this as the

39:04

rock star kind of staging

39:06

of that era. These

39:09

lit torches and branches are dropped down from

39:11

all of the trees and it lights up

39:13

the night in these beautiful patterns. And it's

39:15

all very opulent and beautiful and they get

39:17

along. Next evening, she does join him

39:22

camp and he apologizes because it's

39:24

a rough camp and

39:26

of men. But she takes

39:28

it in stride. She's utterly charming.

39:31

And they form a relationship. And

39:34

she goes back to Alexandria with her. And

39:38

it leaves his wife to take care of this. And

39:40

I believe that she did a very good job of

39:42

it. So Plutarch,

39:45

200 years later, was

39:47

writing about Anthony. And

39:50

unlike the Romans, they

39:53

were doing leadership assessments too, right? But

39:55

they were very biased against Cleopatra, very

39:58

sexualized, very oriental. Sisero

40:00

detested her because she talked

40:03

back to him and very

40:06

debasing, which actually did not

40:08

fit the person who was

40:10

running this empire so well,

40:14

running Egypt so well. So

40:17

he, Plutarch, decides to get both

40:19

sides of the story and being

40:21

a very good historian, he

40:23

assessed her. And I

40:26

thought maybe Yishavita could best bet in a male

40:28

voice. So I think this

40:30

is really, really, really beautiful. So

40:33

for her actual beauty, it is

40:35

said, was not in itself

40:37

so remarkable that none could be compared

40:39

with her or that no one could

40:42

see her without being struck by it. But

40:44

the contact of her presence, if

40:47

you lived with her, was irresistible.

40:50

The attraction of the person, joining

40:52

with the charm of her conversation and

40:54

the character that attended, oh, she said

40:57

her, that was something I was watching.

41:00

It was a pleasure merely to hear the sound

41:02

of her voice, with much like

41:04

an instrument of many strings. She

41:06

could pass from one language to another so

41:09

that there were few of the barbarian nations

41:11

that she answered by an interpreter.

41:15

Really beautiful. Yeah, that is very beautiful. And

41:17

that is one of the best descriptions

41:20

of personal charisma around. Looking

41:25

at a person first in terms of

41:27

appearance just didn't

41:29

apply here. She wasn't

41:33

unpalatable, but no

41:35

one noticed that because of the power

41:37

of her presence in her conversation. And

41:39

of course, the multilingual hints at a brilliance she

41:41

learned languages of the thought. Could

41:44

it Elizabeth I of England, she would translate

41:46

in circles. She would take English, put it

41:48

in Latin, put it in another language, and

41:50

then go back to English

41:53

in a meditative sense. I thought that was

41:55

just me. No, I'm

41:57

joking. No, no, you have a... I'm

42:01

sure you do. We do all

42:03

the Russian and Chinese, you know,

42:05

different languages. So that's

42:09

leadership analysis. Now it

42:11

was 200 years after the person, and

42:15

we would be more neutral in language. Remember

42:18

the biases against her, which were dangerous

42:20

biases. I mean, she did form relationships

42:22

with the two most powerful men in

42:24

her era. And

42:27

that tells you something about their

42:30

judgment of her. And they had

42:32

children with her, which was dangerous, actually,

42:35

in succession. Just

42:37

briefly, I think, just to put

42:39

this in context, so one

42:41

thing that I always find fascinating as a

42:44

historian is that Cleopatra

42:46

is closer to us

42:48

in time, like

42:50

chronological time, than

42:52

she was to the pyramids at Giza.

42:56

That's crazy. That shows

42:58

you how ancient and long

43:00

Egyptian culture was. We are

43:02

closer to her than she was to

43:04

the pyramids. And just for Anthony as

43:06

well, I feel because of the

43:08

space of 2,000 years, because

43:11

of Shakespeare, because of Richard

43:14

Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, I

43:19

feel like Anthony's been misinterpreted. There's

43:22

no two ways about it. Caesar

43:24

is one of the greatest generals in

43:26

history, and his most

43:29

trusted and capable general

43:31

was Anthony. This is somebody that

43:33

endured years of hardship fighting on

43:36

the remote corners of the empire.

43:38

This is not some weak,

43:41

lily-livered, effeminate man that people

43:43

think of. This is like

43:45

a tough soldier

43:48

who's just bewitched by this personal power

43:50

that we've been speaking about, which I

43:53

just think is completely incredible. It

43:55

is incredible, and we fool

43:57

ourselves if we think that the

44:00

same thing could happen. happen now.

44:02

That similar dynamics would unfold

44:04

now between the people who

44:06

are playing politics

44:08

or military at that level. This

44:17

episode leads to a

44:19

reflection on the idea

44:21

of history repeating itself.

44:23

Is history characterized by

44:25

chiming, rhyming, repeating or

44:28

eternal recurrence? This

44:30

idea of repetition can be understood,

44:32

I would suggest, in

44:34

more than one will. The

44:37

notion of history repeating itself

44:40

is of course scoffed at

44:42

by some historians who prioritize

44:44

the uniqueness of the past,

44:47

skewered by people who prefer the

44:50

concreteness of the present, or

44:52

seen as dangerous by those who

44:55

welcome the open-endedness of the future.

44:58

To me the issue is not, will

45:01

the same set of circumstances replicate

45:03

in the same way at a

45:05

different period of historical time? The

45:08

answer to that is very, very

45:10

simple. No. Unlike

45:14

the physical world which stays

45:16

relatively permanent over long periods

45:18

of time, think of the life

45:20

cycle of the Sun and the

45:23

biological world where change is

45:25

imperceptibly slow, albeit

45:27

happening, social systems

45:29

created by human beings are

45:32

continually in flux, actors

45:35

are continually modifying their behavior

45:38

and technological change is

45:40

continually undermining settled and

45:43

established ways of doing things. Think

45:46

of 20th century America. This

45:49

is a million miles away from

45:52

a controlled experiment in a laboratory

45:54

where we examine the effect changing

45:56

A as on B while

45:59

keeping C. The D E

46:01

and ask cause in

46:03

human affairs the simply

46:06

as possible. Assure

46:08

them as well human

46:11

beings same themselves, responding

46:13

to similar situations and

46:15

different historical circumstances that

46:17

we must adjust our

46:19

answer to yes and

46:21

deeds. This is one

46:23

of the reasons to

46:26

study Cleopatra, Caesar and

46:28

Shut Shout out of

46:30

Far from the only

46:32

one can be seen

46:34

Archetypes Girl possums see

46:36

similarities or differences. And

46:39

farm constellations from the millions of

46:41

stars and the night sky of

46:43

time. Does

46:46

does not mean some some course

46:48

of action fall and so a

46:51

lots of with the So if

46:53

we're looking for inspiration from history,

46:55

there are so many variables to

46:58

consider. Have so many things that

47:00

may have changed since we last

47:02

saw a similar constellation. One

47:06

writer has noted past. As

47:08

a foreign country and do things.

47:12

My answer? we beat. But

47:15

not of. Anthony

47:36

and Caesar were genuine

47:38

geniuses. Said the personalities

47:41

of course, Caesar.

47:43

As going to recommend actually reading

47:45

memory city Want to. Understand

47:48

personnel that eats including contemporary

47:50

memoirs. If you assessing, somebody

47:52

says alive now. And

47:54

that you have to be careful because some

47:57

of them are propaganda, but some of them

47:59

are true masterwork. And Caesar his.

48:01

Memoirs: The garlic was. Yeah, but

48:03

also the Civil War. For what?

48:06

Is he seems to, he's addressing you,

48:08

and in the Civil War in particular,

48:10

he was addressing the reader personally. Can

48:12

you have somebody read that to you?

48:14

Been listening on. A

48:16

book that's been recorded. It's.

48:19

Eerie how much his personality

48:21

becomes presence. And. You

48:23

can seal that

48:25

incisive mind on

48:27

the persuasiveness. And

48:30

the reason why we still see sounds

48:32

of clip have a bad they are

48:34

fatter an Anthony and Caesar his sister

48:36

Charisma Cure is forward. That.

48:39

The charisma of these individuals,

48:41

including from the bad ones,

48:43

carries over through time. Know

48:45

that poem or semen to

48:47

yes, and that summarily Gallia

48:50

selling. That

48:52

is what every lead a fierce. Maybe.

48:54

You can be the problem later, but

48:56

it's about how you shop in the

48:58

desert in this is broken statue, the

49:00

legs a celebrate. Everything else is instances

49:03

of the things which is near of

49:05

power and the poems about how. It's.

49:07

In the middle of the desert. Third,

49:10

Minute says something and I am

49:12

Ozymandias King of Kings. Look upon

49:14

my face and be terrified of

49:17

something like that. I'm not been

49:19

poetic year but. He the poem. And.

49:22

It's forgotten. See the opposite. She's

49:24

forgotten Awesome. India's is nothing but

49:26

broken legs in the desert. Lead

49:29

a sphere that. Can they? They

49:31

don't feel being seated for. The.

49:33

Day most they see are being. Forgotten.

49:37

So. The opposite of love. Isn't

49:39

hate, It's indifference. As.

49:41

Every leader thinks about the vision and the

49:44

future and and even the best ones have

49:46

this in them. But

49:48

a close to Caesar's in. The.

49:50

Anthony's in the Cleopatra's and I'm way

49:52

back in time. Maybe the Arthur's Searle

49:54

a minute on the and Than. Enough.

49:57

Suleiman the Great, the All. Will.

49:59

For. ever be in the history books. Now,

50:02

just to give you a taste of Caesar. Okay,

50:04

so here's Caesar, the famous line, I came,

50:07

I saw, I conquered. The

50:12

most famous line in Latin that

50:14

everybody knows. That was

50:16

his report back after a lightning strike

50:19

to conquer the princess

50:21

or overcome the Prince of Pontus. Okay,

50:23

and that's all he had to say.

50:26

Now, there's a whole

50:28

personality built into that, is there?

50:30

The succinctness, the

50:33

brilliant alliteration on the

50:35

playfulness, and the truth of it

50:38

is he did. He came, he saw what

50:40

was happening, he did some of

50:43

his usual brilliant maneuvers, he conquered and he came

50:45

back. So that's a great kind

50:47

of cable back from the

50:49

field. It's fascinating

50:51

and I feel like there's so much certitude

50:53

that comes across in that. There's so, and

50:56

you read this in the Gallic Wars and

50:58

the Civil Wars, there's so much, this

51:00

is what I'm going to do and I'm going

51:03

to do it and I'm going to overcome any

51:05

and all opposition, even if that means that I

51:07

have to march on Rome itself, which is something

51:09

that is completely forbidden

51:11

to do. And there's this

51:13

great story of Caesar coming

51:15

across a statue of Alexander the

51:17

Great when he's a

51:19

governor in Spain and apparently Caesar

51:21

is like 50 years old at

51:23

this point and he breaks down

51:25

in tears and he's at

51:27

the age of 30 Alexander the Great

51:30

had conquered the known world and

51:32

here I am governing sheep farmers,

51:34

counting pennies and so forth. I

51:36

mean, it's just really, he's a

51:38

really incredible and quite

51:41

ugly to modern sensibilities for Gerber

51:43

very, very fascinating. He also

51:46

wrote elegantly.

51:48

Ulysses S. Grant is

51:50

another person who wrote beautiful war memoirs

51:52

and he was asked why about his

51:54

style and he said, I've written military

51:58

orders and you have to to

52:00

write them in a certain

52:03

style, unambiguous, clear, succinct. And

52:06

that helped him write his

52:08

history of the Civil War. And

52:11

he wrote that while he was dying of cancer,

52:13

the throat, in great pain. And

52:17

he needed to do this because it had

52:19

been financial reverses. He was bankrupt and he

52:22

wanted to leave his family with

52:24

a source of income. So he

52:26

sat on the back porch and wrote in

52:28

great pain. He couldn't swallow with

52:30

that great agony at the end. These

52:33

wonderful works. And a week later,

52:35

once he put down his pen,

52:37

he died or pencil, he died. So

52:40

these minds, you know, these military leaders

52:42

are very interesting type. He's

52:46

another one in terms

52:48

of brevity. So there's

52:50

this famous story after the first

52:53

day of the Battle of Shiloh where

52:55

the Union Army gets pushed back almost

52:58

into the Tennessee River and

53:00

Sherman finds him underneath a tree

53:02

smoking a cigar in the pouring

53:04

rain. And he's generally

53:06

trying to approach the topic of

53:08

retreat. And he goes up to Grant

53:11

and says, well, Grant, we've had the devil's

53:13

one day, haven't we? I,

53:15

you know, maybe we should get out of here. And

53:17

Grant just responds like him

53:20

tomorrow, though. The

53:22

Ford works like him tomorrow,

53:24

though. Like just your backs against

53:26

the river. Everybody else is lost

53:28

on the earth. And you're just like, no, we're

53:31

going to win tomorrow. Yeah, that's

53:33

kind of incredible. Sounds like Ulysses

53:35

Grant. Yeah. He

53:38

was a masterful horseman.

53:41

He had abused alcohol. He

53:43

had this relationship with Sherman

53:46

that was tight. And Sherman famously

53:48

said, you know, he no, I

53:51

don't know who said what. But essentially the line

53:53

was I looked

53:55

after him when he was drunk and he looked

53:57

after me when I was crazy. Now

54:00

imagine Grant, what you

54:02

just described, working with Lincoln. And

54:06

that personality for

54:09

the ages too. So

54:11

Lincoln was self-taught.

54:15

He had basically three years of

54:17

elementary school education, and

54:19

yet he produced the Gettysburg Address,

54:22

one of the most beautiful prose poems

54:24

ever written, which completely recast

54:26

what the Constitution was all about.

54:29

So it was

54:32

quite controversial in its time among some circles.

54:35

But he had clinical

54:37

depression, Churchill did too. Lincoln

54:40

had clinical depression, and people would

54:42

say things like melancholy dripped off

54:44

of him. He

54:47

was suicidal at one point. His friends removed

54:49

his weapon, his knife,

54:51

his razor. But

54:55

he was absolutely driven to be

54:57

educated. And

55:00

knew at the end that he was

55:02

likely, he was pathetic, he was likely

55:04

to be assassinated. And

55:06

that personality worked well with Grant. He selected

55:08

him as his next general. How

55:11

do you... Yeah, Lincoln had

55:13

just had this tremendous thirst

55:15

for learning, doesn't he? And

55:17

there's this great quote as well. We should

55:20

move on to the next question. But that's

55:22

a great quote. Let me join the conversation,

55:24

Andrew. There's this other great quote where people

55:26

are, I think, jealous of Grant, and they're

55:29

saying to Lincoln, you

55:31

know, he's a drunker, people find him and

55:33

he can hardly speak. He's flaring his words

55:35

and stuff. And Lincoln says, well, let's find

55:37

out what whiskey he's drinking and give it

55:39

to the other generals.

55:42

That sounds like Lincoln. Yeah, Lincoln laughed

55:44

for him, was a bomb

55:46

in a medicine. So

55:49

one of the things that I wanted to ask as well,

55:51

Ursula, was, as far as

55:54

you know, the other countries,

55:57

the psychology of our leaders, I mean, it's probably

55:59

a silly question. question, but people are looking

56:01

at American presidents and saying, what are

56:03

they all about? It's not

56:06

a silly question. It's actually a very

56:08

good question because this has

56:10

been done from the very beginning

56:13

of, I've recorded a military

56:15

history and then political history. So all

56:19

the big theorists, Sun Tzu,

56:21

you know, and Naka Valley

56:24

and Clausewitz, they all say you

56:26

must understand the

56:28

opponent and the psychology of

56:31

the leaders. I noticed when I

56:33

was working through the exhibit that you have

56:35

a little bit of a scene

56:37

there of the Trojan War. Okay, so

56:40

during COVID, I couldn't concentrate

56:42

on professional work all that well. So

56:45

I decided to write about

56:47

the Iliad, okay, and the

56:50

Odyssey, because my son was

56:52

Holmes, a student of classics. And it

56:55

struck me that Ulysses Odysseus

56:59

was the first case officer. Okay,

57:01

he's a classic case officer. So I

57:04

wrote the piece on that. But

57:07

he was, and his friend

57:09

Diomedes, his pilot Diomedes and Iliad, as

57:11

you know, did the infamous,

57:13

a famous knight expedition

57:15

into the enemy camp to gather

57:18

intelligence. And when

57:20

they catch the spy from the Trojan

57:22

side coming to spy on them, they

57:24

ask him a series of very keen intelligence

57:27

questions, including the morale

57:29

of Hector and

57:32

of the Trojans and

57:35

the dynamics and the

57:37

leadership. So it was there from

57:39

the very beginning. And of course, he was

57:41

the master of Ulysses, Odysseus

57:43

was the mastermind of the Trojan

57:46

horse and the most famous infiltration

57:48

operation in history. So it

57:50

goes all the way back to the beginning. And

57:54

in my agency began in World War Two with

57:56

Carl Young, Agent 488. He would he would He'd

58:00

probably done a lot of fun things with the numbers, had he

58:02

known them, because he was just kind of mystic, who

58:05

was recruited by Alan

58:08

Dulles, okay, to do

58:11

essentially what I do on every level, operational

58:13

and psychological world

58:15

leaders. So we can

58:18

only assume that our other countries,

58:22

our opponents, as well as our friends, do this as

58:24

well. Now, I have

58:26

met with my counterparts in friendly

58:29

countries, our closest allies, so I'll let you

58:31

figure out who they are. And

58:34

we would never be so impolite as to

58:36

mention doing assessments of each

58:38

other's leaders. But we do

58:40

exchange assessments or information about our

58:43

assessments of other leaders, ones that

58:45

are kind of mutually opponents on

58:47

one level or the other, and

58:49

exchange methods. So the very fact

58:51

that we can do that suggests

58:54

yes, it's happening. So what

58:56

I generally say is any country that

58:59

has a history of psychology

59:01

and psychiatry, and using this in

59:03

national security will be doing this.

59:05

Some of them outsource it to

59:08

academics, but certainly in

59:10

the military context, I can't imagine any

59:13

effective military not

59:15

doing this. Thanks

59:24

for listening to this episode of Spycast. Please

59:36

follow us on Apple, Spotify, or

59:39

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59:42

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59:44

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59:51

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59:57

can find links to further resources, detailed.

1:00:00

show notes and full transcripts. I'm

1:00:03

your host, Andrew Hammond, and my

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podcast content partner is Aaron Dietrich.

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The rest of the team involved in

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III, Emily Coletta, Emily Renz, Ariel

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Samuel, Afua Anokwa, Elliot Peltzman,

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