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2:00

Coming up next on SpyCast. It's

2:03

like decades of research that

2:06

is exposing the mester spies in

2:09

the UK, in the US, in Australia.

2:11

The Australian chapter of that is not

2:13

as well known but it is a

2:15

significant part of the equation. This

2:26

week's guests are John Blackslund and

2:28

Claire Bergen, co-authors of the

2:30

new book Revealing Secrets, an

2:33

unofficial history of Australian Signals Intelligence

2:35

and the advent of cyber. You

2:38

may remember John from a previous

2:40

episode of SpyCast this year. He's

2:42

a professor of international security and

2:44

intelligence studies at the Australian National

2:47

University. And Claire, an ANU alumni,

2:49

is a former Australian diplomat who

2:51

served as ambassador in Serbia, Hungary

2:54

and Romania, among others. In

2:56

this episode, the trio discuss the

2:59

importance of signals intelligence, code

3:01

breaking in Australian intelligence, Australia's

3:04

role in World War II and the Cold War,

3:06

and the advent and

3:08

evolution of cyber. The

3:12

original podcast on intelligence since 2006, we

3:14

are SpyCast. Now

3:19

sit back, relax and enjoy the

3:21

show. Okay,

3:25

well thanks ever so much for

3:28

coming into the studio to speak to me. I'm

3:30

really looking forward to speaking to you both about

3:32

your book. Thank you. Good to be

3:34

with you Andrew. I thought a

3:36

good place to start just

3:38

for the people out there that

3:40

don't know what second as or

3:42

hear people talking about it, signals

3:44

intelligence, sounds cool. What is it?

3:47

Just give our listeners a couple of sentences on

3:49

it for people that are not in this business.

3:53

It's eavesdropping. It's listening into conversations. dialogue

4:00

radio signals and

4:03

telegraphy. Increasingly

4:05

over time it's about digital

4:07

communications interception and

4:09

listening into conversations

4:12

to which the listener

4:14

is not the intended recipient. So

4:17

there's an interception part to that right?

4:20

Antisysep information. Yeah. Or

4:23

try to stop interception. So the

4:25

motto of the Australian Signals Directorate

4:27

in Australia is to reveal their

4:29

secrets and protect their own. So

4:32

there's a sword and a

4:34

shield dimension to figant where you're

4:36

looking to ensure that your own

4:40

communication security is tight and

4:43

that your ability to eavesdrop

4:45

is better than your adversary

4:47

or your target's ability to

4:50

protect themselves. And there's

4:52

a whole bunch that I want to unpack.

4:55

But for the book there's a

4:57

quote in there from a former

4:59

foreign minister and he

5:01

said that signals intelligence is Australia's

5:04

most consistently productive

5:07

form of intelligence. What

5:10

did he mean by that and why is that so?

5:13

One reason is that it's

5:16

intelligence which is untouched. If

5:19

you have a transcript of what somebody has

5:21

said it's not somebody else's

5:23

interpretation of it. Another

5:27

reason is it's consistent. If you

5:29

have a consistent flow of the

5:31

signals intelligence you can

5:33

actually discern a particular trend.

5:39

It has been, it wasn't just

5:41

Australia's most consistent form of intelligence,

5:43

it was probably the

5:46

most productive form of intelligence in

5:49

the Second World War and during

5:51

the Cold War as well. So

5:54

there's the converse, the flip side, I feel

5:56

like Andrew, is that a

5:59

clever target? will have

6:01

a good sense of your ability to

6:04

intercept or eavesdrop and may well put

6:07

out some spurious information in the hope

6:09

that you are listening and

6:12

that you believe misinformation.

6:15

So that's why SIGINT

6:18

on its own is a

6:20

good intelligence analyst, is

6:23

considered a single source of

6:26

intelligence that has to be put

6:28

into broader context. It has to be

6:30

analyzed, evaluated, rated and

6:32

given some kind of weight

6:35

of trustworthiness of accuracy and

6:37

reliability. The two broad categories

6:39

of measuring

6:42

the worth of intercepted material of

6:44

intelligence be it from human intelligence,

6:47

signals intelligence or imagery

6:49

intelligence or other forms of intelligence.

6:52

And I mean it could be a form of confirmation

6:55

bias but John Ferris

6:58

and his book on GCHQ which

7:01

is similar to yours but for an

7:03

inspiration to our work by the way. A

7:05

great piece of work. And

7:07

he talks about SIGINT being the queen

7:10

of British intelligence, the thing that

7:13

consistently delivers the goods and

7:15

so forth. So that seems to be a common theme. Very,

7:18

very true. And the thing is as

7:20

we explore in the book, you can

7:22

do it from the other side of the world. You don't

7:25

actually even have to be there. You can be listening into

7:29

communications that have bounced off the troposphere

7:32

and landed in Bonagilla in

7:34

Victoria which

7:37

is able to reveal

7:39

incredible insights into the enemy's

7:42

plans, intentions, actions

7:44

and weaknesses and

7:46

vulnerabilities. It's quite powerful. Just

7:50

in the absence of what John

7:52

mentioned, deceptive communications,

7:57

You actually get from the

7:59

horse's mouth exactly what you

8:01

want. what they think whereas

8:03

with human human intelligence intelligence

8:05

collected by an agent in

8:07

some way it's It's through

8:09

the through their eyes. Three,

8:11

they perception. Or is

8:13

I think people like ministers find

8:16

it very reassuring sometimes. To.

8:18

Actually, see virtual transcript of

8:20

what a private conversation was

8:23

burden and that's very reassuring

8:25

for them. I mean, let's

8:27

face it, intelligence is supposed

8:29

to aid in policy making,

8:31

a decision making.government. officials And

8:34

in a crisis, a government

8:36

official, a minister, a prime

8:38

minister or president wants. One

8:45

step ahead of the target of these are

8:47

endless from your the enemy. And

8:50

he says a sealed has got inside

8:52

the states. That. That is

8:54

giving them an advantage than that

8:56

is very very fruitful. And the

8:59

construction and sums of. Get

9:02

sending signals intelligence agency

9:04

that. That's

9:07

the best. Example I can think of that

9:09

the moment is still in in than telegram which

9:11

is one. Reason mind. The United States

9:14

entered into the wall. Eyes

9:16

it would cover it's it's it's

9:19

Dancer and on the Is. Leaders

9:21

of the United States was quite

9:23

skeptical and on were not keen

9:26

to into the war at that

9:28

stage. that because I saw this

9:30

telegram you know in black and

9:33

was once it was decrypted by

9:35

sending a British script analyst says

9:37

saw that one Germany was planning

9:40

to do in the United States

9:42

I give back. New. Mexico

9:44

and Texas to Mexico in exchange

9:46

for the Mexicans keeping the that

9:48

the the Americans busy on the

9:51

border. So once I saw that

9:53

they realized that Germany had plans

9:55

to them there was no doubt

9:57

because they could see the telegram

9:59

from. Herman Foreign Minister. Carefully

10:02

managed by the British cars lie about it

10:04

is if you know I their own M

10:06

O sending or years. So very

10:08

serious. Absolutely Them. The

10:10

fact that that's quite an interesting

10:13

example there. And like

10:15

to see those though. You.

10:17

Don't need to put any additional interpretation on.

10:19

I was not say where it is. His

10:21

name is said to be as thought. You're.

10:23

Relying on I'm and to me Juri

10:26

like see the Iraq War, curve ball

10:28

or human source well as passive said

10:30

the Us and we thank for this

10:33

is what happened or yes he said

10:35

she said it's just cheers For example

10:37

Saddam Hussein sentenced his defense minister. Where.

10:40

Did you put the news buddies are

10:42

so he has run been playing Ultimate

10:44

Demise se like where are we doing

10:47

to Wmd this as a gag while

10:49

everyone to Death Benefit. Of

10:52

but his. that's not what curveballs is yet

10:55

another for that that a lot about that.

10:57

Thus quite powerful and interesting. and and just

10:59

very briefly before we move on. am. In.

11:02

Or when you were speaking their clear

11:04

admit this thing cause you were an

11:06

ambassador to several countries. Could you just

11:08

hello listeners. What's. Countries, you're on

11:10

a bus or two. and of course you Watson

11:12

and many more. Details about your

11:14

experience of of Walking in the Lord of

11:17

Intelligence. If if I

11:19

can just start a little soccer

11:21

to stop may be a little

11:23

bit from the beginning. This my

11:26

my first experience of that was

11:28

in Warsaw where I was before

11:30

just before the collapse of Communism

11:32

which I'm in my opinion began

11:34

with the Round Table folks in

11:37

Basel, not the Berlin Wall. It

11:39

was some yeah polls he'd set

11:41

in prison and really suffered vary

11:43

greatly. That in the

11:46

end managed to wind democratic

11:48

elections which which actually was

11:50

a crack. For. The

11:52

other countries had miss earlier if if you look

11:54

at the dates and but when was this Claire?

11:56

This. Was in other save from nineteen eighty.

11:58

Three To Ninety Nine. Seven I'm

12:01

doing Mean Able Archer. At.

12:03

The time the a lotta exercise that

12:06

there are became very interested in the

12:08

signals intelligence because when you picked up

12:10

the phone is had a message which

12:13

was put on by the the you

12:15

know bothered secret police steps saying urls

12:17

mobile com from Ivana which meant

12:19

your conversation is being listened to that

12:22

half the time we would he the

12:24

conversations of our colleagues in the embassy

12:26

so I don't know how will

12:28

the system was words in the purpose

12:31

of the snow is it taught it

12:33

taught. Me a great deal because one

12:35

of the things we santa book is

12:37

is we all. We quote John Le

12:39

Carr 's saying that. It's

12:42

actually. An expression

12:44

of the nation's on since

12:46

since. The Seat and Services and

12:48

will so quotes. Alex Younger,

12:50

the former head of him a six.

12:52

He said he does the key to

12:55

the sold the Nation Woods to that

12:57

effect that the the know the secret

12:59

police in Poland the their hearts who

13:01

is in it's and therefore they didn't

13:03

do particularly good job and I think

13:06

it's the house that was deliberate. That

13:08

some. Then I went. Then

13:11

I went to Moscow where it was

13:13

very different situation. Ah, One

13:15

did have to be careful. One had the

13:17

sense of being followed. And.

13:19

The Kg Be there. I'm.

13:23

Attracted very talented people said they

13:25

were. If this again and expression

13:27

of the soul of the nation

13:29

you would get people who were

13:31

quite nestles, sticks to that and

13:33

patriotic for in a pool of

13:35

you who would. Join in a.

13:38

Compared. To join the Kgb it was a

13:40

good job. So I learned

13:42

quite a lot during that period.

13:45

and obviously we'd go to great.

13:47

Lengths not to be overheard

13:49

putting on music, running water,

13:52

Or monks had a. Hilarious visit

13:55

to Moldova were armed is

13:57

complaining to my late husband.

14:00

That I that I. I couldn't find my

14:02

t. And. Opened I opened

14:04

the hotel room door and psalms.

14:07

Three. Men with very short

14:09

says. Scrambling. Around

14:11

searching the status of my keys

14:13

so you know that that actually

14:15

in a say you were looking

14:17

for is is this is so

14:19

very very interesting experiences and one

14:22

what what years was of the

14:24

run Moscow clear ah. Just at the

14:26

time that the collapse of this out the

14:28

Soviet Union. I actually heard the

14:30

tank's a come in and it

14:32

was the time when of chef

14:34

was kidnapped than dumb. Yeltsin

14:37

was that yields in this

14:39

together. Wow. That must

14:41

have been an incredible thing to be the

14:43

is supposed as it was really amazing and

14:45

really showed. A

14:48

one was extremely conscious of the importance

14:50

of those things because it was a

14:52

very tense time. And it

14:54

certainly we we we were were is

14:57

being listened to. The.

14:59

We were keen to obviously

15:01

understand as much about situation.

15:04

Around Us as possible, and in

15:06

Intelligence most important for that. And

15:09

the of I was just thinking

15:12

tomasi think this is a terrible

15:14

analogy but when you're talking about

15:16

signals intelligence to me it seems

15:18

almost like. A game

15:21

of American football where you're trying to

15:23

advance the ball down the few. And.

15:26

Do you have deception strategies?

15:28

You try to mislead the

15:30

opponent. But. The differences with

15:32

Sagan. There's. No at.

15:35

Auditory. Or says a cool

15:37

or as you'll see but you're just trying

15:39

to get the ball from one end of

15:42

the fuel to the other without the other

15:44

side intercepting her from and you devise a

15:46

sees the strategy to strange necessary to have

15:48

to stop a deception but you never get

15:50

to choose you'd be me think it's though

15:53

says by so it's been intercepted but you

15:55

have to go through all of these. Things

15:59

just a target. Information is that the

16:01

think the something to that are are just

16:03

getting carried away at. All to

16:05

the grid a final note and good little

16:07

and moods assessments. Wait, we're.

16:10

In in the Cause metics honey pots

16:12

and advocates Australian intelligence on to use

16:14

them And far from. His

16:22

friends bomb. Tests.

16:24

That's. Because

16:27

it's a lot more than that. And.

16:33

Interacts, Going

16:37

with your opponent's. But.

16:40

That. Process

16:42

more complicated as and

16:44

stance on once and

16:46

end up. And respect

16:49

always and for about that song

16:51

on the see on to mention

16:53

of and across to protect your

16:55

sources to. Success and

16:58

Security and digitally rather spectrum

17:00

and enough asked the nurse.

17:03

Ask. It has to

17:05

go to the all a younger point

17:07

so far ahead of M I six

17:09

of I shall I got this is

17:12

a questionable from so he says. It

17:14

tells you something about the the soul

17:16

of a nation, the essence of a

17:18

nation. So the question perhaps oversee as

17:20

who was while why does it what

17:22

is the audio and aces see A

17:24

boat Australia the soul of Australia of

17:26

the essence of Australia. That

17:28

this could proceed. I really believe

17:30

that. I think he's. Absolutely

17:33

spot on because.

17:35

My. My theory anyway, is it.

17:38

Because. Being. In the

17:40

Secret Services and particularly see

17:42

games. Requires.

17:45

A lot of discipline. Learning those skills

17:47

not not everybody can do is. And

17:50

it also requires extreme

17:52

attention to security and

17:54

secrecy. And this some

17:56

this. creates like this

17:59

creates a

18:01

rather cloistered environment for

18:04

people. And they tend to

18:06

become very close. And more

18:08

than that, it creates, this

18:11

isn't just Australia, obviously. Alex Younger said

18:13

it about the British. It's

18:15

the same with the British, the same

18:18

in America. But it also

18:20

creates a fantastic camaraderie

18:22

between them. But

18:25

what I've noticed with the Australians,

18:27

and I think it's similar

18:29

in the other Five Eyes countries, is

18:35

these people tend to be quite patriotic to

18:37

do that job. They want to. They love

18:39

their country. And it

18:41

also seems to preserve very

18:43

good qualities. I may be being romantic

18:46

about this, but it's what I've observed.

18:48

For instance, the first Australian head,

18:51

I understand, the first Australian head

18:54

of what is now the Australian

18:57

signals director, Ralph Thompson, had

19:00

also been in signals in

19:02

the Middle East. Never told his

19:04

family what his job was. But

19:08

he had quintessentially very

19:10

fine, I understand,

19:12

qualities. And

19:15

this is, it's

19:17

my observation, but I think it's really true.

19:20

I don't know if you'd agree with that job. I've

19:22

got a slightly different take on the question. I

19:26

think much of what

19:28

we have in our national intelligence

19:30

enterprise, national intelligence community in Australia,

19:35

has reverberations of 1942, the

19:38

kind of existential moment when Australia

19:40

was physically under threat and bombed

19:43

and attacked in Sydney Harbour,

19:45

Darwin, Townsville, et cetera. And

19:48

the Battle of the Coral Sea was fought to

19:51

prevent the Japanese from capturing Port Moresby. And

19:54

this is before the Battle of Midway, when

19:56

we just take inflection point of the

19:58

Pacific. In that

20:00

moment, we see, and we talk about

20:02

this in detail in the book, which

20:04

is one of the reasons why we

20:07

explore the early antecedents of British and

20:09

American, SIGINT, because they come together in

20:11

1942 in Central Bureau and the Fleet

20:13

Radio Unit Melbourne. That

20:15

experience of deep, trusted

20:18

collaboration in

20:20

Extremis is the

20:23

foundational experience which

20:25

then provides for the post-war context

20:27

in which these organisations are reimagined

20:30

in the Cold War. And

20:33

you get people like Abe Sinkov,

20:35

who is instrumental in the Atlantic

20:37

Charter and in the SIGINT agreement

20:39

of 1940-41, coming

20:42

to Australia and playing a

20:44

pivotal role in managing

20:47

MacArthur to a certain extent and

20:52

managing the Australians and bringing them

20:54

together and knitting together a

20:56

team. That is,

20:58

it's an extraordinary accomplishment. And

21:01

so, that I think has

21:04

informed what I call the dialectic

21:06

of Australia's history and our geography.

21:10

Our history has transplanted Anglo-European,

21:13

English-speaking federal

21:16

democracy and increasingly

21:18

a cosmopolitan one, with

21:21

our geography being on the

21:24

edge of Asia in the heart of

21:26

what we now call the Indo-Pacific. And

21:29

I think that's what's

21:31

generated the combination of that 1942 and the dialectic

21:33

of our history and

21:37

our geography goes a

21:39

long way to explain what Alan Gingsell talks

21:41

about in his book Fear of Abandonment, the

21:43

late Alan Gingsell, a story last year. Great

21:46

mind, great thinker, great contributor to

21:49

Australian foreign policy and

21:51

national security writ large. So

21:56

when we think about the enterprise. in

22:00

terms of the soul, reflection of

22:02

the soul. But it's also

22:04

a reflection of the geostrategic and historical

22:07

circumstances in which they arose. And

22:09

I think that's... So there's a complementarity to

22:11

the answers there. There

22:14

are a couple of examples which

22:16

we found of how

22:20

these relationships sometimes

22:23

have transcended perhaps political

22:26

relationships. For example,

22:28

I think

22:30

it's in John Ferris mentions

22:33

that during the

22:35

Suez Crisis exchanges

22:38

of intelligence still went on

22:40

between, despite the fact that

22:42

political relations were at

22:44

an all-time low, between

22:46

the NSA and GCHQ exchanges

22:49

continued. And

22:54

according to another source,

22:57

when Australia, when we

22:59

were actually cut

23:01

off from forms of more

23:04

classified information, oddly

23:07

enough it was SIGINT that the

23:10

SIGINT exchanges still continued according

23:14

to one of our sources anyway. To

23:26

help set you up for the remainder of

23:28

this episode, here is a quick primer on

23:30

Australia's entrance into World War II. On

23:33

September 3rd, 1939, Great

23:35

Britain declared war on Nazi Germany. The

23:38

same day the Australian Prime Minister made

23:40

the following announcement. Fellow

23:42

Australians, it is my melancholy

23:44

duty to inform you officially that in

23:46

consequence of a persistence by Germany in

23:48

her invasion of Poland, Great

23:50

Britain has declared war upon her. That

23:54

as a result, Australia is also at

23:56

war. At

23:58

the time of the outbreak of World War II, too, the

24:00

Australian Armed Forces were still recovering from

24:02

the First World War and the Depression

24:05

of the 1930s. Only

24:07

two weeks after war was declared

24:09

a volunteer force, the Second Australian

24:11

Imperial Force, was formed to

24:14

support the military effort. During

24:17

the first two years of war, Australians fought

24:19

on land, air, and sea largely within Europe

24:21

and the Middle East. The

24:23

Japanese entrance into the war in 1941

24:26

called troops back to Australia to defend

24:28

the Pacific. As

24:30

John and Claire discussed in

24:32

this episode, Australia held an

24:34

incredibly important role in the

24:36

Pacific theater. In 1942, American troops

24:39

under General MacArthur's command arrived in

24:41

Australia just before the Japanese attack

24:43

on Sydney Harbor, the first

24:45

attack on Australian mainland in its

24:47

post-colonial history. By

24:49

the end of the war, almost one

24:52

million Australians served across the Pacific theater,

24:54

the European theater, and the North African

24:56

campaign. The Australian Armed

24:58

Forces and their intelligence capabilities

25:00

that we discuss in this episode were

25:02

absolutely critical to the Allied effort during

25:04

World War II. We'll

25:20

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27:19

And so when we're talking about Australian

27:21

SIGINT, can you just tell our listeners

27:24

a little bit more what we're talking about?

27:26

Because we're not just talking about the Australian

27:28

SIGNOS directorate. Can you just give

27:30

us a broader understanding of

27:33

the various players in this space?

27:36

So what happens, we have three

27:38

chapters in the SIGINT World War in the book, and

27:41

this is when we see an absolute

27:44

mushrooming of the SIGINT capabilities,

27:47

both the collection capabilities, the

27:50

analytical and reporting capabilities.

27:53

So what we have is the two

27:55

big ones that emerged in 1942 are

27:57

Fleet Radio Unit Melbourne, is

28:00

really supporting the maritime war in

28:03

the Pacific and

28:05

the Central Bureau, which

28:07

is combining the work

28:09

of the Australian Army

28:11

and Air Force and the

28:14

US Army, which in those days incorporated

28:16

the US Army Air Force, right in

28:18

the 1947 separation of the US Air

28:20

Force, all under

28:22

General Willoughby, all under General

28:25

McArthur. And

28:27

Australia basically worked collaboratively in

28:29

that space with them. So you have that, then

28:31

you have the D diplomatic special

28:34

section, or D special section as it

28:36

was known, looking at

28:38

diplomatic communications and

28:40

revealing some of the most fascinating

28:44

cables from Japan, Japanese diplomats

28:46

reporting back to Tokyo about

28:48

things like the Adokklesen coup

28:51

attempt against Hitler in 1944, revelations

28:53

to the Allies picked up

28:59

in Bonagilla in Victoria, because you couldn't

29:01

pick it up in

29:03

London or somewhere in North

29:06

America. The way the

29:08

HS signals bounced off the troposphere,

29:10

they landed beautifully in Bonagilla in

29:13

northern Victoria, the state of Victorian

29:15

Australia. And so you've got and that's

29:17

why you see you had Army

29:20

and Air Force special wireless groups

29:22

that were actually placed out

29:24

there was one at Bonagilla for

29:26

instance, there were several forward deployed

29:29

in Darwin, the Canadian sent one,

29:31

the Canadian special wireless group sent

29:34

to operate in Darwin in 1945. The Royal

29:38

Australian Air Force has several of them as

29:40

well in northern Australia and then in Papua

29:42

New Guinea and then elements of them go

29:44

forward with McArthur into the Philippines doing

29:48

the combination of close

29:50

in collection VHF. So

29:53

the kind of direct line of sight

29:55

communications it's that because the VHS signal

29:57

doesn't bend very well. HF1

30:00

bounces very notably off the

30:02

atmosphere, the troposphere in particular.

30:07

And so the close-in VHF

30:09

collection could be picked up of signals,

30:11

maybe intercepting landlines if they may be

30:13

defined one. So you could listen into

30:15

a landline if you intercepted one. And

30:18

the further back, the special wireless

30:20

groups in Australia would

30:22

listen into those longer-range communications. So

30:25

you're talking about voice, you're talking

30:27

about telegraphy, you're talking about over the

30:30

radio and over the line. And

30:33

that's a mixture of those things, some of it in

30:35

plain text, in plain Japanese or

30:37

German or Italian, and

30:39

some of it encrypted. So if

30:42

you are in a forward-deployed unit, and we talk about

30:44

this in the book with the special wireless groups, if

30:47

you're forward-deployed, you can actually derive

30:50

some tactically useful

30:54

shelf life of which is quite short. Information

30:58

that is perhaps not encrypted, that

31:00

can be used by the local

31:02

commander for the operations

31:04

that are ongoing at that particular site.

31:07

And that's very useful. And

31:09

then there's other stuff that

31:11

requires the more detailed unpacking

31:13

decryption, so in which you

31:16

look at the longer term

31:19

analysis. And that required a lot

31:21

of brain power, it required the use

31:23

of the first computers in Australia,

31:25

the IBM computers brought in by

31:27

MacArthur and the CAST

31:30

team from the Philippines. So

31:34

quite a lot, you know, this

31:36

is the early days of computing

31:38

power in Australia. Of

31:40

course, it lays the groundwork for the

31:43

post-war computerisation of signals intelligence, which

31:45

in turn lays the groundwork for

31:47

when the digital revolution kicks in.

31:50

And traffic analysis is something that

31:52

Australia excelled in back in the

31:54

day. We were the best. We

31:57

were the best at traffic analysis, and we've seen

31:59

this the Australian. Australians being very

32:01

diffident didn't say this

32:03

about themselves, but the British and

32:06

others definitely recognised

32:08

it. It

32:10

was, I think, in

32:12

part, we were very good at it because it

32:15

was all we could do. We weren't

32:17

introduced into crypt analysis early on. Once

32:20

we were, we were as good as any,

32:22

but in

32:24

traffic analysis, which required just using

32:26

your wits and being very quick,

32:29

we were recognised as being the best. If

32:34

I remember correctly in the book,

32:36

you also tied us in a

32:38

way into Australia's sense

32:40

of self, one of the reasons, sure,

32:43

that they excelled in it because, you know,

32:45

this is one of the main things we

32:47

could focus on, but if

32:49

I remember correctly, you tie

32:51

it into Australia's ability

32:53

to muck

32:56

in resourcefulness,

32:58

you know, scrappiness, if you want to put it like

33:00

that. Yes, yes, I think

33:03

that's true. I mean, we

33:05

mentioned early on this, there's a

33:07

very nice statue in Sydney of

33:10

the sailor called John Varko, who

33:13

was in charge of, he

33:15

was a signaller, right? But

33:18

people like him in the

33:21

Korean War who were only supposed to be

33:23

doing own force communications and

33:26

assisting the South Koreans with

33:28

their communications, which we did,

33:30

there are letters which

33:34

have been found in other records showing

33:37

very clearly that they did far

33:39

more than that. They were definitely

33:41

intercepting enemy communications. So I think

33:44

that's one thing about Australia, they're

33:46

very resourceful, keen

33:48

to do it and keen to do as much as they

33:50

can. I'm just curious, For

33:53

our listeners that are a bit

33:55

rusty on the war and the

33:57

South Pacific and the Indo-Pacific region.

34:00

How much was Australia used?

34:03

As a place to project to

34:05

american military force from so so

34:07

like and brand. At. Saw as

34:09

a listening outposts and in some respects but

34:12

then it's also used as a place to

34:14

bet would up. Materiel.

34:16

So they can be projected onto

34:18

your of is that the Kiss

34:20

on the Island Hopping come in

34:22

and Deadly Motel as or the

34:24

But more. Both are just some

34:26

broad numbers. Him broadly some. so

34:29

the first Marine Division which is

34:31

reconstituted in Melbourne after the battle

34:33

with Guadalcanal in Honiara. it's once

34:35

some Solomon Islands being the main.

34:38

Efforts from the Japanese to try

34:40

and buy slightest idea in early

34:42

non a forty funny to me

34:44

donny forty two am and Australia

34:46

found itself the from of the

34:48

breadbasket for the Pacific war ah

34:50

supplying a lot of in the

34:52

lend lease arrangements australia as he

34:54

does upon lot of manufacturing of

34:56

munitions and stuff but also particularly

34:58

food or that supplied the hours

35:00

and to to the Us forces

35:02

it operating in the pacific. But

35:04

the other thing which is quite

35:06

relevant today with. Copper

35:10

Sound which is is.

35:13

From. A Big Water a body of

35:15

water to south of Freemantle. He.

35:19

Where the earn a strain on

35:22

submarines are now based was see

35:24

biggest submarine base in the Indian

35:26

Ocean and one of the biggest

35:28

in the hall of the Indo

35:30

Pacific region across all of the

35:32

Pacific, an Indian theaters where the

35:35

heart of the war, hundred and

35:37

seventy outlawed submarines operating from and

35:39

they were then able to go

35:41

up north and the virus traits

35:43

malacca, some the way to Lombok,

35:45

etc and and interdict Japanese sipping

35:48

My light grade colleague. Does bold

35:50

Ah talked about astronomy suitable for

35:52

some real estate and suddenly it

35:54

became very much that with Pine

35:56

Gap between talk ban a book

35:58

as well. For.

36:05

Mccarthy's campaign bob have been to

36:07

to recover the Philippines for than

36:09

maritime campaign to into the Japanese

36:12

shipping and for the reinforcement, resupply

36:14

off and refresh and rehabilitation of

36:16

and maritime forces are praying for

36:19

the all and sign as well

36:21

enough and and because it must

36:23

have a history is written from

36:26

a British or American perspective these

36:28

trainings angle seems to get. Overlooked

36:32

and lose. Deeply consequential. That's why I'm

36:34

trying to bring as a very good

36:36

a two hundred and were American armies

36:38

bellotti there for any period of time.

36:40

You don't people think about the war

36:42

movies know, literati. So I were a

36:45

lot of a lot of Americans. I'm

36:47

in the affairs or say the first

36:49

Marine divisions reconstituted in Melbourne. I'd spent

36:51

some time in the marines a few

36:53

years ago on a deployment and like

36:55

they pulled into I'm into Darwin. I

36:58

was on the sick of us as

37:00

Boxer, an amphibious him. And I

37:02

played of Watson. And

37:04

I was like wow this is

37:06

pretty amazing and of course when

37:08

of and realizes that was until

37:11

the is the song on the

37:13

first Marine division which has on

37:15

their beds the Southern Cross move

37:17

but why Because said formative experience

37:19

in Australia several of to wife's

37:22

back with them in after the

37:24

war that kept relationships going into

37:26

many of them but with the

37:28

Us Army under Macarthur it's presence

37:31

was much greater and as the

37:33

war continued. Queensland.

37:35

Brisbane the assets and table

37:37

lands became the the kind

37:39

of to pick training ground

37:42

the prep force location since

37:44

eluting of tens of thousands

37:46

of American soldiers which have

37:48

overwhelmingly were welcomed but for

37:50

the occasional jealous Israeli soldier

37:52

approved a little bit problematic

37:54

sent and this led to

37:56

the moment which has comments

37:58

type. captioned as the

38:01

Battle of Brisbane, which is really just a

38:04

stout on the streets between drunken Australians and

38:06

drunken Americans over, you know,

38:08

what they called oversexed,

38:12

overpaid and over here. And

38:16

they were better paid than the Australians and so they

38:18

could afford more things, they had more things to offer.

38:21

And of course there's something, and it's

38:23

interesting dynamic at work between North Americans

38:27

and Australians. Australians really like

38:29

that accent. Australian men tend

38:31

to like the North American

38:33

between, if I can put it that way. And

38:36

conversely Australians tend to like the North American,

38:38

Australian men tend to like it in North

38:40

American women. I happen to have married a

38:42

Canadian. So

38:44

I'm an anecdotal illustration

38:47

of this phenomenon at

38:49

work. It's

38:54

like in, I think it was in

38:56

1908, the Great White

38:58

Fleet came to Australia and

39:00

apparently, and it's very

39:02

warmly welcomed and apparently

39:04

quite a number of them stayed. They

39:07

had such a good time. It was

39:09

party after party. So as John said,

39:11

people tend to get on very well.

39:14

And it's worth remembering that we weren't

39:16

actually a US ally in

39:18

the Second World War. We were coalition

39:20

partners. And so when

39:22

the war ended, MacArthur

39:25

went North to Japan and really kind

39:27

of walked away from

39:29

Australia. And there was an expectation that we would

39:31

then go back to

39:33

the Brits. And to be fair,

39:35

the Brits were very helpful as the war concluded.

39:38

And for the early days of the

39:40

creation of Australia's then Defense Signals Bureau,

39:42

in the absence of

39:44

that cryptoanalytic component that the Americans

39:47

brought to Central Bureau, the

39:49

Brits helped regenerate that

39:52

with an Australian flavour. So we

39:54

had for several years throughout the 1950s

39:57

Brits playing pivotal roles as the

39:59

first. In

40:07

some on was the warmest

40:09

experimental center they sent over

40:12

as a trusted aide to.

40:15

Help integrate British. Expertise

40:19

and of cryptography expertise.

40:23

A D as bees and wasps and

40:25

defensive must be or camp strong signal

40:28

strength of now but and help them

40:30

get on the states to fill that

40:32

take the logical kept to part of

40:34

the United States had created so that.

40:37

That. Listen to those. it though very very

40:39

significant than the dirty since sink to

40:41

set then leaves does he knows there's

40:43

a sense is in in in some

40:46

kind of circles is A since all

40:48

the Brits betrayed Australia, Nani, Forty Two

40:50

and a former prime minister's my. A

40:52

lot of this in Australia are. Now

40:55

to do it in he nice

40:57

my mom. Is.

41:04

A prince was house with an aircraft

41:06

carrier that was broken down as in

41:08

Sri Lanka house alone I've had multiple

41:10

divisions. It had in a a trance,

41:12

a big steak and was happening and

41:14

courses I hadn't helped itself that much.

41:16

point not muscling up in the pre

41:19

war period. although we had deployed. The

41:21

Moto three divisions too, and the

41:23

Navy. or to the to north

41:26

africa so if it's it's complicated but there

41:28

was a sense they that the for the

41:30

from the brits that was a a sense

41:32

of well as raise of really important been

41:35

a particularly for us as. The.

41:37

Uk tried to read engaged. In.

41:40

It's far east, felony north

41:42

of after the war or

41:44

establish himself in Singapore, Malaysia.

41:46

Hong Kong. arm and not

41:49

so long and been burma of course

41:51

i got they got independence and nine

41:53

forty six forty seven and and then

41:55

of course my a good but independence

41:57

a decade later in singapore as well

41:59

but But the relationship with Malaya

42:01

and Singapore, Malaysia now, stayed

42:04

healthy and Australia remained

42:06

an integral part of that. And of course in

42:08

Hong Kong, and we talk

42:10

about this in the book, Australia

42:13

played a very critical role in

42:15

supplementing the personnel resources and the

42:17

intellectual horsepower of your local, you

42:19

know, intellectual grunt of the

42:23

SIG-Int enterprise in Hong Kong, which

42:25

was critical. When you think

42:27

about this, you know, what

42:29

made the special relationship between the

42:31

UK and the US? In the

42:33

post-war years, it was the fact that Britain still

42:35

had empire, it still had Hong Kong, it still

42:37

had Cyprus, it still had territory. That

42:40

served from a pure real-politik point of

42:42

view, utility for the United

42:44

States. It's

42:46

very clear from the SIG-Int history,

42:48

and why Michael De Grey was

42:51

one of the SIG-Int historians, that

42:53

there was huge affection for Australia.

42:57

I think we refer to it as

42:59

an almost familial relationship. They

43:01

described, I mean, he

43:03

actually says that Australians are

43:06

one of us. So

43:09

it was really very close. And there

43:11

were other occasions too, when we

43:14

had the situation where intelligence wasn't

43:17

being shared because of a leak.

43:19

It was the British who interceded

43:22

on our behalf. They were very,

43:24

really extremely helpful. And

43:27

you know, similar thing

43:29

with the United States. I keep

43:31

thinking of the IBM machines. They

43:35

brought IBM machines with them, which

43:38

we really needed. And

43:41

we had arranged to get our own, right?

43:43

We'd arranged to get our own, but the

43:45

arrangement fell through. It hadn't been done by the

43:47

end of the year. And it looked

43:50

as though we would never get them. But

43:52

the Americans somehow mysteriously abandoned

43:55

them, you know, in Australia.

43:58

And in the end, they still... got

44:00

them. So yeah, so I think

44:02

we had we benefited from great

44:04

relationships with both the British and

44:06

the Americans. Throughout

44:18

this episode, Andrew, Claire and John

44:21

have spoken about Australia's relationship with

44:23

the UK and America. For

44:25

those like me who might be a

44:28

bit rusty on Australian history, here's a

44:30

quick interlude on the Australian Federation and

44:32

Australian independence. Prior

44:34

to 1901, Australia was just the

44:37

name of a large continent comprised

44:39

of six different British colonies. These

44:41

colonies, settled on indigenous

44:43

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land,

44:46

have their origins in the late

44:48

18th century. Following American

44:50

independence in 1783, the UK

44:53

sent the first fleet to Australia to

44:55

establish a penal colony in New South

44:57

Wales. If you've ever bought

45:00

a bottle of the Australian line 19 crimes,

45:02

which is very good, by the way,

45:04

you'll know that many of the first

45:06

Australian colonists were criminals sent

45:08

down under by the British in an

45:10

attempt to alleviate the overcrowding of Victorian

45:13

prisons. Indeed,

45:15

the first fleet dropped off 736 British

45:18

convicts, both men and women. Colonists

45:22

also included willing immigrants and as

45:24

the population grew, more

45:26

colonies were established, eventually dividing the

45:28

continent into six, now states today,

45:31

that operated independently with their own

45:33

leaders and own sets of laws.

45:37

By the late 19th century, the

45:39

idea of Federation, the unification of

45:41

the six colonies into one country,

45:43

was gaining popularity. Much

45:45

like the early United States, a

45:48

series of constitutional conventions took place,

45:50

with representatives from each colony to

45:52

draft a new constitution. The

45:55

settled upon constitution, which detailed

46:00

United States Congress and British Parliament

46:03

was voted upon and passed in all of the

46:05

colonies by 1899.

46:08

British Parliament passed the Commonwealth of

46:10

Australia Constitution Act in July of

46:12

1900 and

46:14

Queen Victoria gave her royal assent four

46:16

days later announcing that the act would

46:19

come into effect on January 1st 1901.

46:23

Thus in 1901 the

46:25

six colonies became the Commonwealth

46:27

of Australia, a federation of

46:29

six states and today two

46:31

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47:54

in your book you have a nice

47:56

narrative arc of World War One

47:58

that ends around the end. War period, World

48:00

War II. We don't have time to cover

48:03

all of that unfortunately. People can obviously go

48:05

and buy the book. But

48:08

I think it would be quite interesting

48:10

at this point to just discuss a

48:12

couple of figures from World War II.

48:14

So we've discussed various parts of the

48:16

Second World War. But I'm thinking

48:18

in the US you have Joe Rochefort

48:20

for the Navy, you have the Freedmen's

48:22

for the Army, you have the Nacian

48:24

World War I, you know Herbert Yardley,

48:27

the Black Chamber. Then in

48:29

the UK you have Room 40,

48:31

Dilly Nox, Alan Turing. But a

48:33

lot of our listeners won't have heard of a couple of important

48:37

Australians like Eric Naive and

48:39

Ruby Boy Jones. So we

48:41

could discuss both of them.

48:43

I think that would be quite interesting. Well

48:45

the Coast Watchers were very interesting. You

48:48

know they obviously had a function reporting

48:52

on bad weather, things like you know just what

48:54

was happening and so on. But they're mostly... So

48:56

they would be best on islands and they would

48:59

report? On islands from those areas. And you

49:01

know yes. And they're perfect. Strategically

49:04

in the Pacific. She

49:06

was on an island called Vanne

49:08

Coro where the

49:11

French explorer La Perreuse was

49:14

probably shipwrecked because the island had

49:16

very dangerous reefs around it. Anyway

49:19

she was there with her husband.

49:21

She reported on you know

49:24

meteorological matters and taught

49:26

herself Morse code. But

49:30

during the war she became

49:32

a Coast Watcher as well.

49:35

These people provided cover for

49:38

Sigint. You know when Sigint picked up

49:41

that there were enemy planes coming they

49:43

could say that all the Coast Watchers must

49:46

have seen it if they were flying in

49:48

that direction. So it was very

49:50

very important cover. She was

49:52

particularly good at it. She was very resourceful. But

49:56

The Japanese knew exactly what she was

49:58

doing and she received death. And

50:01

on one occasion they came to get

50:03

her. And. Couldn't that because

50:05

of them? Stories surrounding in or

50:07

surrounding the island where lot there

50:09

was a thera apparently came to

50:11

grief but she was making know

50:14

as by by the Americans doesn't

50:16

work. The

50:18

morning view distance warning messages

50:21

Dc transmitted so slow and

50:23

I'm one of them. I

50:26

think it was minutes sent a

50:28

plane. When. She when she became

50:30

ill so it's to get hospital treatment

50:33

and is a i think of a

50:35

boss. Block or something named after

50:37

the and done troon some sort

50:39

of a dormitory so she was

50:41

she was some is quoted. Want

50:43

an amazing Ceo and. Eric Nave

50:45

was equally Was probably even

50:47

more remarkable because he was

50:49

really a strays world famous

50:52

code breaker. He was brilliant

50:54

acid. He was also an

50:56

expert on Japan, which is

50:58

people that say enough about

51:00

that. He taught himself Japanese

51:02

from scratch and victim of

51:04

the. Had. Lessons of the Is he had

51:06

to visit. Some of the and I

51:08

lived in Japan for and he is

51:10

sealed the deal of there for years

51:12

and actually knew a lot about Japan

51:15

Japanese politics. So. That she

51:17

was able. To he was

51:19

able to decrypt very

51:22

important table on was

51:24

called the Washington Racer

51:26

and why Japan was.

51:29

Satisfied with a naval ratio of

51:31

three to five, Because Japan for

51:33

it. Yes, Nine, Twenty one. Because

51:35

Japan had worked up. That

51:38

by the time. With

51:41

us us. Had crossed the

51:43

Pacific they be exhausted, running out of

51:45

fuel, etc. It was just knew. It

51:48

was sister really and a terrific

51:51

exposure is how they how the

51:53

Japanese with thinking and he understood

51:55

is he understood the bush cedars

51:57

food so it really made him.

52:00

Cobra Com and in a he

52:02

he actually set up that organize.

52:04

He led that organization, Australia and

52:06

them since mentally breaking Jan. Twenty

52:08

five. Pretty cool. seventy nine times.

52:12

For Ruby Boy June's to me

52:14

just on parts for example some

52:16

of the contributions of the to

52:18

the Bustle of the Coral Sea

52:20

Medway am Guadalcanal which you mention

52:22

the books or just never listeners

52:24

the flavor of of how australians

52:26

a peice of those both the

52:28

coast what's your organization. You know

52:31

they're scattered. They serve people who'd been

52:33

the in the interwar years said or

52:35

plantations they working have club farms

52:37

have got him. They're invested in in

52:40

in agricultural land prices in the islands

52:42

and their skills on the dealer

52:44

and they often would have their own

52:46

radio just stick ordering something for the

52:49

next patch that was gonna come

52:51

by. And so the supplies from the

52:53

next month and six effect of course

52:55

as rain years for them become

52:57

incredibly useful for reporting in wartime and

53:00

particularly. In the line of Ireland's i'm

53:02

from Rebel we're the Pacific Army headquarters

53:04

was for the Japanese I'm at down

53:07

to of of Solomon got have been

53:09

a canal in the sun was sewn

53:11

on. The site is a to this

53:14

two lines of Ireland's I'm and this

53:16

kind of a gap between them or

53:18

that's com a water weight and he

53:20

can steam through and you can and

53:23

lot of the ferrying of supplies happened

53:25

along the route from Rebels down the

53:27

Guadalcanal. Up. it's

53:29

in that space battle of said are

53:31

and happens. It's in that space that John

53:34

Kennedy's patrol boat is. Ah, that is

53:36

cut in half by Japanese. Warship

53:39

it's in that space Said They

53:41

are a lot of a post

53:43

watches who are working with local.

53:46

People Pacific Islanders and

53:49

then reporting and collaborating

53:51

and in rescuing Jfk

53:53

ah and watching. With

53:56

the hours of Americans and a science

53:58

or this is enormous. Well in

54:01

that space and fall. In.

54:04

A message. On.

54:08

Singing. The praises of the

54:10

switches isn't easy. sell more everything

54:12

because if you just we know

54:15

you know in the in in

54:17

espionage business the secret to success

54:19

isn't keeping one successes sacred and

54:21

the success of seeking to had

54:24

to be kept secret so he

54:26

couldn't about mister Nothing worse than

54:28

this and we talk in the

54:31

book about some examples of autism

54:33

to quoted about disclose all catastrophic

54:35

to knock on effect of that

54:37

revelation on. The ability to continue

54:39

the people would change all the codes

54:42

man sees one time pounds. If your

54:44

title follows the i looked like a

54:46

normal fear that the in and says

54:48

you know there's. There's.

54:51

A lot of credit to the coast which has to

54:53

be given rung so. I'm. And.

54:56

But. As we say in the

54:58

Balkans gothic an important point from bogeys. Most.

55:01

Scholars On International Relations.

55:04

Don't. Know what? they don't know? One.

55:06

Of the things. On

55:11

It since our last month up

55:13

and this book is an attempt

55:15

to cover. That gap.

55:18

To certain extent. Well I thought. Them

55:21

part of second and I are

55:23

wrote large so we get to

55:25

the end of the Second World

55:27

War as trio your. Am.

55:30

Com though tougher and then. Tell

55:32

us how Australia goes into the Cold war

55:34

as understand the from book after the war.

55:36

Like many countries it's okay when we do

55:38

not need all these past the now we

55:41

don't need all of these agencies those above

55:43

a winding down and then as for someone

55:45

else we have to keep a close eye

55:47

on on. yeah and there's a romping backup.

55:49

Tell us have a begins to both back

55:51

up after the war. Will. We

55:53

we. We were drawn into some.

55:56

A number of wolves in our own

55:58

in our and region. It

56:00

you know that there was see if

56:03

there was the where are we were

56:05

part of a call on this. Obviously

56:07

we didn't want the spread of communism

56:10

anymore than our allies did and that

56:12

our situation was a bit. Different

56:15

from theirs because of because of

56:17

where we would these was taking

56:19

place. Quite. Near us. We

56:21

we were active. been in

56:24

terms of seguin to in

56:26

in Milan, been in the

56:28

Indonesian confrontation. And

56:30

then fighting alongside. The United

56:33

States in Korea. So.

56:36

And v It and in Vietnam. So

56:39

as an interesting to clean up the hiatus

56:41

of the and. Were

56:43

materially government. Has

56:46

been. Able

56:48

in its in its circle who

56:50

are. Bar association

56:52

tainted with the nest of sparse

56:55

and emerges in the nineteen fifties

56:57

and this is what makes the

56:59

break of communications. this American imposition

57:01

of restraints on sharing information with

57:04

Australia in London. From to the

57:06

light money forties to forty seven,

57:08

forty or forty nine a real

57:10

sense of threat is in crisis

57:13

mode. Custom finity groups. this decrypt

57:15

of these of Russian com diplomatic

57:17

porting pointed to affective. Australian.

57:21

Past. Passing of classified information to the

57:23

Soviets now on one level you know

57:25

in hindsight we see goddess terrible but

57:27

we are think the to remember that.

57:30

For. A lot of these people

57:32

who have had left us leanings

57:34

the Soviet Union having also done

57:36

the heavy lifting in the fighting

57:38

against the Germans in the Sigma

57:40

War that had been our allies

57:42

in Oh and the revelations of

57:44

of kind of Stalin's atrocities in

57:46

the earth were not widely not

57:48

settling on their blood. Widely known

57:50

before the the crossing of the

57:52

hunger and uprising in the Prague

57:54

Spring there was a since in

57:56

on the left to politics that

57:58

the Soviet Union model will. Such

58:00

a bad thing. What they had beaten

58:02

the Nazis they you know the had

58:04

redeeming qualities. Are. And so

58:06

I think there was a sense in that

58:08

circle that are what we should just helped

58:11

them you do not realizing in fact that

58:13

does he know and as such as born

58:15

time at home and clear in a book

58:17

on break him code that I'm the same

58:19

for my son was and being used against

58:21

us because the soviets one of the war

58:23

in the pacific to go longer. An

58:26

authentic than it was on was going

58:28

to go because I wanted to finish

58:31

off the Germans and then prime. Parts.

58:33

Of Japan in the seventies and bar

58:36

set in, it was important for them

58:38

to be up to draw the conflict

58:40

out, which means make him less. It's

58:42

easy for us to give to find

58:44

it funny. I'm in and it wasn't

58:46

just cancelled the season with cause I'm

58:48

in Me as an owner Revelations it

58:50

was. I think that that's the reason

58:52

why. Not very Why even less is

58:54

written about see games in the Cold

58:56

War than. Than. During the

58:58

Second World War. because it

59:00

was such a hostile and

59:02

extensive campaign against states and

59:04

and picking up for example

59:06

the atomic bomb projects and so

59:08

on said we were as

59:10

a close ally of the

59:12

United States loot. We were

59:14

also part of this that

59:17

fortunately we reap We were deemed

59:19

ourselves to a certain is it

59:21

will. We did redeem ourselves nothing

59:24

because of the penthouse isakson which

59:26

was very useful. And actually

59:29

I'm. Assisted. In

59:31

the decryption have some of the the nine

59:33

and material because Support to trust. Me

59:37

I think he has said that

59:39

but sports on packing. Ultimately the

59:41

significance of the one time pants

59:43

and been revelations in and British

59:45

Parliament of seeking success against the

59:47

Soviets we took weapon the book

59:49

that then led to the Russians

59:51

realizing that they needed to go

59:53

daily. White way that was safe

59:55

was one time pad electromechanical generated

59:57

see cryptography was not prove with

59:59

I was. Right off since we

1:00:01

must like with the German Enigma

1:00:03

of the of Polio from any

1:00:06

substitutions writers was often numeric numbers

1:00:08

on him, he could actually replicate

1:00:11

the code sequence if you had

1:00:13

enough computing power and a couple

1:00:15

Elites so. The. Russians picked

1:00:17

up on it early before the

1:00:19

Germans numb and they went to

1:00:21

one time pad in the late

1:00:23

ninety thirties. But when it came

1:00:25

to the stuff of when when

1:00:27

the nazis and nine and an

1:00:30

eminently have a challenge and keeping

1:00:32

a supply of and on pets

1:00:34

i make duplicates and for do

1:00:36

a for a period that the

1:00:38

duplicate heads provided a. Slide.

1:00:40

Crack in the window. For. Some

1:00:42

lot to pass through to

1:00:44

allow cryptography as to on

1:00:46

peace the Russian code. And

1:00:49

it is to present a bit

1:00:51

of a known apprentice turns from

1:00:53

the the mid ninety forties through

1:00:55

to Nineteen Eighty Six decades of

1:00:57

research that he saw exposing. you

1:01:00

know that the Mr spies in

1:01:02

in the Uk in A in

1:01:04

the Us in Australia a stray

1:01:06

and scepter of that is not

1:01:08

as well known in the Northern

1:01:10

Hemisphere, but it is a significant

1:01:12

part of the equation. And breaking

1:01:14

that list of spies and the

1:01:17

significance of banana to that's. His

1:01:19

goes a long way to explain

1:01:21

how post the The Royal Commission

1:01:23

on Espionage, the Petra Defection, the

1:01:25

stress it is really rehabilitated in

1:01:27

terms of the five oz partnership.

1:01:30

With. A thing for noise really on trust

1:01:32

them from for a number of reasons but

1:01:34

one thing that i was wondering was of

1:01:37

the nor not uncovers. america

1:01:39

has a spy problem those people inside

1:01:41

the manhattan project for example the are

1:01:43

there are swine for the some union

1:01:46

as brand has a spy problem of

1:01:48

remember correctly out there mclean am the

1:01:50

season i'm forty and of the amplitude

1:01:53

so be a live in honor a

1:01:55

white why is a steal your ice

1:01:57

though earth both of those countries have

1:02:00

own issues with internal security.

1:02:02

I'm trying to understand. I hear what

1:02:04

you're saying about the unwitting

1:02:06

aspect. You know, their allies were

1:02:08

trying to help them, but I'm

1:02:10

assuming that there's also a, a

1:02:12

witting aspect where there's actual people

1:02:14

that are penetration agents or moles

1:02:16

that are passing information over. They

1:02:19

help me understand that. So I think it's

1:02:21

probably worth thinking about the secrets.

1:02:23

These are revelations that happened in the mid

1:02:25

to late 1940s before

1:02:27

the Cambridge V revelations

1:02:30

become clear and before

1:02:32

the revelations about the... The

1:02:37

Rosenbergs and the revelations that the

1:02:39

Manhattan project links. So

1:02:41

Australia seems to be an outlier

1:02:44

of weakness, not realising.

1:02:46

It's not only later that they realise

1:02:48

in fact Australia is just the norm.

1:02:50

You know, it's like everyone else in

1:02:52

the West is subject to penetration, subject

1:02:54

to exploitation and, and

1:02:58

walls operating in a trust capacity. So,

1:03:02

you know, this, we, we have the benefit

1:03:04

of hindsight today, but in the early Cold

1:03:07

War period, there was

1:03:09

a lot of fumbling around. There was a

1:03:11

lot of trying to figure out, you know,

1:03:14

the Truman administration had,

1:03:16

you know, had not

1:03:19

yet adopted. So, yeah, adversarial

1:03:22

approach towards the Soviet Union. It took

1:03:24

a while for that to happen. Churchill

1:03:26

probably was a bit more front footer, but then he

1:03:29

was taken, you know, he was booted out of office

1:03:31

and at least, exactly, he

1:03:33

comes in and, you know, similarly,

1:03:36

there's a kind of centre

1:03:38

left inclination to be more

1:03:40

understanding and forgiving and accommodating.

1:03:43

And same in Australia. There's a sense in, in,

1:03:45

in the, in the chiefly government that, oh, you

1:03:47

know, yeah, for sure we would. Yes, there were

1:03:49

priorities for the Alliance for the US. The

1:03:52

ties for the UK and ties for the United

1:03:54

States because it wasn't Alliance until 1951. Of course,

1:03:56

with the US, with the ANSIS training in 1951.

1:04:00

But prior to that, there's a simple idea that we were

1:04:02

allies in the war, and

1:04:04

of course, so were the Soviet Union. So the

1:04:07

idea of the Iron Curtain takes

1:04:09

some while to get traction in Australia.

1:04:13

Yeah, a certain amount of idealism

1:04:16

in it even, and a bit

1:04:18

of naivety. People

1:04:21

just weren't aware of what was really

1:04:23

what was going on. They'd go

1:04:25

on visits to Russia and obviously be

1:04:27

welcomed and see the good side of

1:04:30

communism, which does

1:04:32

exist, but not things

1:04:34

like people being

1:04:36

sent to prison for saying what they thought.

1:04:42

They didn't see that side of it yet. And

1:04:45

just bringing it up to the present day as

1:04:47

we're running out of time, so I'm just trying

1:04:49

to get a sense of when

1:04:52

does Australia's second

1:04:56

move towards the cyber age? So one

1:04:58

of the subtitles of the book is

1:05:00

the advent of cyber. So for our

1:05:02

listeners, when is the advent of

1:05:04

cyber and when does Australia join the advent

1:05:06

of cyber? Or maybe

1:05:09

the two coincide. Yeah, so the

1:05:12

fourth industrial revolution happens across the

1:05:14

world. It's starting in the 90s. I

1:05:17

remember getting a brief in

1:05:19

1988 by

1:05:23

an electrical engineer colleague of mine in the

1:05:26

signals call. He said, John, the world's

1:05:28

about to get transformed by ones and zeros.

1:05:31

And I thought, what are you talking about, mate? He

1:05:34

was right. The world was on the cusp

1:05:37

of a transformation. And

1:05:39

of course, that meant by

1:05:41

the mid-1990s, it's becoming

1:05:43

clear. We've

1:05:46

got the internet emerges, which

1:05:48

is all about digital communications globally

1:05:50

with ones and zeros, some kind

1:05:53

of permutations of ones and zeros. That

1:05:56

of course, laptops, computers,

1:05:59

the internet. These things all add

1:06:01

to the momentum for the digitalization

1:06:04

of the world, which

1:06:06

in the SIGINT enterprise generates

1:06:09

an existential crisis because

1:06:12

SIGINT has for the longest

1:06:14

time relied on analog signals

1:06:17

communications, radio frequency emanations and

1:06:20

stuff passed on telegraph lines. The

1:06:25

digital revolution, OMG, what are we

1:06:27

going to do? How are we going to manage

1:06:30

this challenge? And

1:06:32

there's a great sense of, well maybe

1:06:34

our days are over. Of course what

1:06:36

they hadn't quite realised in this. By

1:06:38

the mid-90s to the late 90s, there's

1:06:40

a sense of honour. This is a

1:06:43

Copernican revolution taking place here. We are

1:06:45

going through an absolute transformation. This

1:06:47

once very secretive organisation

1:06:50

whose very title was meant to deflect

1:06:52

attention. I mean the Defence Signals

1:06:54

Bureau were not the

1:06:56

AT&T or the Telstra of Australia.

1:06:59

It was an eavesdropping organisation but its

1:07:01

title was meant to hide that fact.

1:07:04

By the late 90s into the early 2000s,

1:07:07

the cyber dimension, this need

1:07:10

for cyber security becomes

1:07:13

all encompassing. The

1:07:15

government needs it, departments, industry

1:07:17

needs it, schools, education, society

1:07:20

needs patches, we

1:07:22

need security and all of a sudden ASD

1:07:25

or then DSD is pushed to the forefront

1:07:27

like in other countries in the GCHQ in

1:07:29

the UK and NSA and the US and

1:07:31

counterparts around the world. These

1:07:34

hoodie wearing, basement dwelling, introverted

1:07:36

geeks are pushed to the

1:07:38

front to help us protect ourselves.

1:07:41

So they have to develop a shop front, a

1:07:44

website, the Australian Cyber

1:07:46

Security Centre with its

1:07:48

essential aids. Getting

1:07:50

out there with a message about, hey this

1:07:53

is a team effort folks but we

1:07:55

are the expert to help you get there. And

1:07:58

that's that computing half from the... electro-mechanical

1:08:00

era of the IBMs of World War

1:08:02

II, to the Cray computers of the

1:08:04

1970s, to

1:08:07

the IBMs and HPEs

1:08:09

of today, Hewlett-Packard Enterprise.

1:08:13

They're the supercomputers of today

1:08:15

that are generating

1:08:17

the space for quantum. And this is generating,

1:08:19

of course, the next wave of challenge.

1:08:22

What do we do with quantum? Of course,

1:08:24

this is a particular challenge for the future.

1:08:27

And of course, the best people in

1:08:29

my estimation, the best people for this

1:08:31

to help us think this through are

1:08:34

our SIGINT experts. I

1:08:37

mean, I really love in the book, at the

1:08:40

beginning, you chart the narrative

1:08:42

arc of SIGINT, look at

1:08:44

the effect that the telegraph,

1:08:46

the radio, electricity have on

1:08:49

signals intelligence. But just final question

1:08:51

to try to tie all of

1:08:54

this together. What

1:08:56

connects people waving flags

1:08:58

on ships? You

1:09:01

know, the Signal Book for

1:09:03

Ships of War 1790, Admiral

1:09:05

Howe, 10 flags have 9,999 possible

1:09:10

meanings. What connects the

1:09:13

ships using the flags to

1:09:15

the modern era of

1:09:17

cyber and computers and so forth? I

1:09:20

think it's I mean, it's communications

1:09:22

when people want to communicate.

1:09:25

That's a very important thing.

1:09:28

But also understanding the

1:09:31

link is understanding others. And

1:09:34

that can be in order

1:09:36

to protect yourself

1:09:39

or to become closer

1:09:41

to a particular country. And

1:09:44

this was what I mean, one of my

1:09:46

favorite characters in the book is Eric Knave,

1:09:48

whom I mentioned before, because

1:09:51

I think what he probably

1:09:53

loved most about his job is that it

1:09:56

enabled him to understand

1:09:58

Japan. where he was

1:10:00

an expert better. So

1:10:02

what it goes to

1:10:05

is deep understanding, very

1:10:07

efficient communications and

1:10:09

deep understanding either for the

1:10:11

purpose of protecting yourself or

1:10:13

sometimes to get secrets from

1:10:15

someone else, from an opponent, but

1:10:18

basically deeper understanding

1:10:21

than you could get by any other means.

1:10:24

I know I'd just add that that communication

1:10:26

was to generate effects

1:10:29

in the Napoleonic era. It

1:10:31

was about getting the battleships in the line to

1:10:33

cross the T if you like to make sure

1:10:35

to win the battle. Today

1:10:39

it's about gaining

1:10:41

an information advantage to

1:10:45

ensure that our forces are best

1:10:47

protected and any

1:10:49

potential adversary is put into

1:10:51

a disadvantageous position. So the

1:10:53

T is crossed metaphorically. Which

1:10:56

brings us full circle. We get back

1:10:58

to the sword and the shield aspect.

1:11:00

Indeed. Protect your own secrets and steal

1:11:02

the other person's. Yeah, reveal it. Well,

1:11:05

thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks

1:11:25

for listening to this week's episode

1:11:27

of Spycast. Please follow us on

1:11:29

Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get

1:11:32

your podcasts. If you have

1:11:34

feedback, you can reach us by email

1:11:36

at spycast at spymuseum.org or

1:11:38

on X at INTL Spycast.

1:11:41

Coming up in next week's show.

1:11:44

He was much more important than I'd been

1:11:46

led to believe. I mean, the popular image

1:11:48

of him, the tabloid image of him is

1:11:50

that Ian Fleming is just during

1:11:53

the war, he's six years in naval

1:11:55

intelligence. He was just a kind

1:11:57

of, he cleared out, outcrazed.

1:12:00

and ashtrays. If

1:12:02

you go to our page,

1:12:04

the cyberwired.com/podcast slash spycast, you

1:12:06

can find links to further

1:12:08

resources, detailed show notes, and

1:12:11

full transcripts. I'm Erin

1:12:13

Dietrich and your host is Dr. Andrew Hammond.

1:12:16

The rest of the team involved in the

1:12:18

show is Mike Mency, Memphis Vaughn III, Emily

1:12:21

Coletta, Emily Ruggs, Afua

1:12:23

Anarkwa, Ariel Samuel, Elliot

1:12:26

Pelsman, Trihaster, and Jen

1:12:28

Ivan. This show is brought to

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you from the home of the world's preeminent

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