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Platform. Welcome

0:52

to SpyCast, the

0:56

official podcast of the International Spy

0:58

Museum. I'm Erin Dietrich,

1:00

your host, Dr. Andrew Hammond's content

1:02

partner. Coming up next

1:04

on SpyCast. There are

1:06

lots of examples of people being inspired

1:09

to go into intelligence

1:11

because of their interest

1:14

in spies that

1:16

came from popular culture. One

1:20

of my favorite examples of this

1:22

is actually Vladimir Putin. On

1:32

March 1st, the Spy Museum will be

1:34

opening its first ever special exhibit, Bond

1:36

in Motion. The exhibit

1:38

features 17 vehicles from the James Bond

1:40

movie franchise. In its inexperience, I can

1:43

promise you won't want to miss. To

1:45

brush up on your 007 knowledge, this week's

1:47

episode is a re-release of a Bond

1:50

special from last year with our in-house

1:52

expert, Alexis Albion. Andrew

1:54

and Alexis joined forces to put the

1:56

past 70 years of Bond into historical

1:58

perspective and to help frame their conversation,

2:00

our collections team, Laura and Lauren, brought

2:03

out a fantastic selection of Bond artifacts

2:05

for Andrew and Alexis to interact with

2:07

during the recording of this episode. If

2:10

you enjoy the show, please tell your

2:12

friends and loved ones. Please also consider

2:14

leaving us a five-star review on Apple

2:16

Podcasts. The original podcasts on

2:18

intelligence since 2006, we are spy

2:22

cast. Now sit back, relax,

2:24

grab yourself a martini, and hopefully we'll

2:27

see you here at the International Spy

2:29

Museum in March. Well,

2:34

I'm so pleased to have this episode

2:37

on the anniversary of James Bond and

2:39

I think I've got the perfect guest

2:41

to do it with my colleague Alexis

2:44

Albin. So I think that would be

2:46

good to start off Alexis. Let's discuss

2:48

your favorite movie, No Time to Die,

2:51

and the bionic eye that we have, which is

2:53

a prop movie in our

2:55

collection. I'm being playful

2:57

of course. Tell us about your

2:59

interpretation of No Time to Die.

3:02

Well, that's

3:05

a loaded question if ever

3:07

I heard one.

3:09

Well, my interpretation

3:11

of it, I guess it's

3:14

the... I can't

3:16

say anything that hasn't probably been

3:19

already written about in many,

3:22

many magazines and blogs and websites

3:24

and so on. Clearly it's the

3:26

last Daniel Craig

3:28

movie and kind

3:31

of the coda in

3:34

a string of Craig films. And

3:38

you know, spoiler, spoiler, James

3:40

Bond dies at the end, which

3:43

is the big surprise. And

3:45

you know, I

3:47

think it's the... it sort

3:49

of finishes that arc of

3:52

the Craig films. Obviously

3:54

Bond's emotional journey has

3:57

Been the big feature of the Craig.

4:00

The Film and and That's

4:02

a large part of New

4:04

Time To Die. His relationship.

4:07

And you know, coming to

4:10

an end and sort of

4:12

him. Puddings family, sexless, Abbas

4:14

his own self is the

4:17

denouement of Bond I'm It's

4:19

hard you know not to

4:21

sort of take that back

4:24

and see. You know is

4:26

is Craig has to leave than than Bond

4:28

has to die as well. Which

4:31

is one way of looking at it, I

4:33

must say. Is in my

4:35

favorite? Oh, and I'm not sure

4:38

I'm and of still have a

4:40

lot of inner conflicts about that

4:42

particular ending. but. He

4:44

know it is what it is.

4:46

I think it'll be really interesting

4:49

to see how the series gets

4:51

reboot to to afterwards because we

4:53

know it is and if he

4:55

stayed in the cinema till the

4:57

bitter end as I did after

4:59

I saw No Time To Die

5:01

in the movies waiting to see

5:04

of Bond Returns. Which

5:06

is always on the screen at

5:08

the end of any born film

5:10

in Dc does. So it'll be

5:13

interesting to see how that series

5:15

is rebooted with not just with

5:17

Bombs, but you know, maybe with

5:19

the whole cast of characters because

5:21

it's hard to see continuity after

5:23

No Time to Die When James

5:26

Bond is Dead. Ah, so we'll

5:28

have to reboot it or have

5:30

to start from some point. I'm

5:33

just as. Per. The Crag

5:35

Series did with Casino Royale Anna I'm really

5:37

interested to see See where they say. That

5:40

me, How. About you and your interpretation of

5:43

has to that you don't get to just

5:45

throw out that question without having it thrown

5:47

back at. For for who are

5:49

mean, there's a few for his

5:51

own to pick up on there,

5:53

but was one of those as

5:56

weird as Daniel Craig, run For

5:58

You and Molesters James Bond. I'm

6:00

not a hard question. You know

6:02

I have to put some Connery

6:04

first because. That's where

6:06

my heart is. I think Daniel

6:09

Craig's been terrific. I mean, A

6:11

non but to. It's

6:13

it's really hard because I think Casino

6:15

Royale the first Daniel Craig films is

6:18

in. You know, the top five of

6:20

all the bomb seems. I think it's

6:22

a fantastic movie and I think he's

6:24

amazing in it. Have to say after

6:26

that. Nothing will

6:28

lives up the Casino Royale for me.

6:31

I'm so, but on the basis of

6:33

Casino Royale alone, I think com. Think

6:36

you might come second. Roger

6:38

Moore's not. Exactly

6:40

my taste. So. Ill.

6:43

I realized that he is for

6:45

some Connor his more my taste

6:47

that he's number one. Oh go

6:49

with pregnant for two and then

6:51

I guess with was more number

6:53

three to pieces Well lisa like

6:55

born charming and has set to

6:57

run of films and then that

6:59

I guess Pierce Brosnan. I know

7:01

I'm leaving out towards Lays and

7:03

Be and Timothy Dalton hard because

7:05

the be. Fully Laden

7:07

be only did one film and

7:10

an adult and to sell or

7:12

give them equal. Equal

7:14

last place. Think most was

7:17

the address them things about the Bone

7:19

series because the been gone for so

7:21

long there's different generations of attach themselves

7:23

to different bonds and you know those

7:26

are Olympian the movie critic view of

7:28

all of the phrase which one makes

7:30

the most authentic says has the best

7:33

thing the best scripts as the books

7:35

from Phases Just I was a cabin.

7:37

this was my bones I grew up

7:39

was I don't really care what the

7:42

critics is, the absolute messes My favorite.

7:44

So those those. Both the object of in

7:46

the subject of going on here. Oh yeah. Absolutely.

7:49

And you know I do. You

7:51

think? He put too much thought

7:53

into it and it is sort of spoils

7:55

thing so I like that subject is you

7:57

know just what you feel and it might.

8:00

The. The first Bond movie so

8:02

on? who starred in it Than that sign?

8:05

So just to go by surface to

8:07

go back to your friends to six

8:09

less. So I really enjoyed the movie

8:11

or sort of the good movies when

8:13

they got to be. and I guess

8:15

the have some existential anxiety because I

8:17

thought what happens in a war with

8:20

so James Bond because. As.

8:22

All have ever known. my whole

8:24

life James Bond has been and

8:26

the background of of the Coach

8:28

or a Man I'm wondering maybe

8:30

have some thoughts on this. She

8:32

does reappear so damned com he

8:35

come back as as Bond really

8:37

dead or was the franchise all

8:39

both. If there's no, James Bond

8:41

is about double o seven and

8:43

his doubles southern are strong enough

8:45

platform to weigh a movie franchise

8:47

on animals are things in the

8:49

universe? A huge gamble raise the

8:52

most successful. Movie franchise ancestry.

8:55

Why Celtic of the figures?

8:57

But then there's also and

8:59

we're going to want to

9:01

discuss thus those seven Coach

9:03

through contradictions and the Bond

9:05

franchise when flaming rule the

9:07

books though the fifties and

9:10

sixties, the very different culture

9:12

just in terms of gender,

9:14

class and period last month

9:16

so forth. So I think

9:18

the increasingly and thus comes

9:20

up and one of the.

9:22

Movies are things as as a

9:24

M and to didn't see. You

9:26

know you're a dinosaur from the

9:28

Cold War, so business can sense

9:30

The Bond is increasingly backed into

9:32

a corner in terms of. Has

9:34

coach or norms and the cultural norms of

9:36

the audience the are watching him so I

9:39

don't know we're gonna go. I'm kind of

9:41

excited to see but a really hope that

9:43

the from it doesn't die off because is

9:45

clearly one for the ages even if it's

9:47

even as a stop. Know as like the

9:50

Beatles as just as gonna live on so

9:52

those are some of the first the I

9:54

had on up. I think

9:56

in the bomb sounds you're right

9:58

that different cells. The air is

10:00

some sort of a selected. You

10:03

can have different social, cultural,

10:05

political themes of the times,

10:07

so you know this existential

10:10

crisis that you experience with

10:12

No Time To Die. I

10:14

mean, you know, maybe it's

10:16

Remo likes and of our

10:18

time. Frankly, We've been going

10:21

through sort of an excess of crisis as as

10:23

I know the film was made before cove is

10:25

at him. On this always

10:27

been to the anticipating some of the

10:29

themes all of our our day so

10:31

maybe it's appropriate in a way that

10:34

you feel that belief we feel that

10:36

where it was sort of going through

10:38

this reckoning the moments you know who

10:40

am I what to I one what

10:42

makes me happy doing these songs and

10:44

so on. so maybe it's appropriate in

10:47

that sense i'm della thing is you

10:49

know. Is.

10:51

That this idea of continuity was,

10:53

that is. Changed. Ways.

10:56

With. Casino Royale with the crank hear

10:58

about them in those always the sense

11:01

that we we know that the actors

11:03

changed but there was always this idea

11:05

of have some continuity going on so

11:07

that he get references to. Bonds.

11:10

Passed from other films and other

11:12

experiences and that was stopped with

11:14

Crag Who Can't Rebooted at when

11:16

we saw the. Early

11:18

bomb in Bonds learning to be

11:20

bombed in Casino Royale, which I

11:23

think they did wonderfully so. There

11:25

is a precedent in that sense

11:28

for not having continuity now. Also,

11:30

there's a precedent for been. Dying.

11:33

Or the Not Die hangs in the

11:36

The Fleming books. He

11:38

only live twice in the novel

11:40

and. Actually that the the

11:43

novel begins with on being being

11:45

dead. As post is not

11:47

dead on the and there's an of

11:49

it. begins with an obituary of Commander

11:51

Bombed and that we find that he's

11:54

not actually said. I don't think that's

11:56

gonna be the case for this film.

11:58

It's really hard to see. Upon

12:00

comes back from this

12:02

particular. Das. An.

12:04

Island Exploding. I mean, it's a

12:07

possibility I think they'll be disappointments

12:09

in a way, because I think

12:11

the film meant to kill him

12:13

definitively so I think he's dead.

12:15

But. I don't think it means you can't

12:18

come back again. At different points

12:20

in time. And and that's the. That.

12:22

Sort of an open books Now the

12:24

writers and know. Can. Britain

12:27

can. Bring him back at any point

12:29

Again, it could be in the midst

12:31

of his career. that bikini was clear,

12:34

whatever they once and that will be

12:36

really interesting to see. I'm but I

12:38

I don't think Bond is sad as

12:40

he said. I think he's shown an

12:43

amazing ability to adapt to the times

12:45

and. I believe the

12:47

success of the last film

12:50

and others mean so I

12:52

think it's very unlikely to

12:54

as stop having that to

12:56

stop the movies. The French.

12:58

Was frankly to see successor makes

13:01

too much money. Beer was so

13:03

else Seems to me the On

13:05

Does is often coldly Anglers, Shore

13:07

or Brothers in a town that

13:10

people use when the describing some

13:12

on his English the use Brothers

13:14

books as seems to me that

13:16

his breath as soon the more

13:19

thorough going sense of the term

13:21

saw the in Fleming's grandfather was

13:23

just as Scottish kim don't England

13:26

a farm Limited money. Flaming.

13:29

Sauce moving in a particular

13:31

social more you're the first

13:33

Bond Sean Connery them slamming

13:35

goes on to Raise Bonds

13:38

Backstory which is Hospice of

13:40

Scottish Eben. then in or

13:42

recently during the Daniel Craig

13:44

era of hard the Scottish

13:47

National Party be the majority

13:49

party in Scotland or even

13:51

my home constituencies went from

13:53

being the safest seat and

13:56

the entire youth is for

13:58

Labour. To be com. The Snp

14:00

seat which are never thought with

14:02

of hop in the Molly's Dame.

14:04

So I want the Robot book,

14:06

the Daniel Craig Arrow Bond. I

14:09

wonder if there's also something going

14:11

on there underneath about the nature

14:13

of breath and are British identity

14:15

or or a British figure? So

14:17

when as Scotland and England, the

14:19

Union of the Clones and sixteen

14:21

offset Sir James's success got sentence

14:23

Air Force of England and and

14:25

a century later Something New seven

14:27

the Union of the Parliament's. So

14:30

there's no such thing really is

14:32

a British national identity for the

14:34

great books and when the call

14:36

a of a story in forging

14:38

a nation and she talks about

14:41

how British national identity was forged,

14:43

the round ideas of and the

14:45

royal families, the empire Am, trade,

14:47

opposition to Catholicism on the European

14:49

Continent so forth. So all those

14:51

things that so the British identity

14:53

together because make an argument. The

14:55

a lot of them have dissolved

14:57

and bond as born in the

14:59

high water mark of all of

15:01

us. The Second World War, the

15:04

good, the war in Fleming's on

15:06

Intelligence Officer then this is where

15:08

a lot of the ideas the

15:10

he goes on to use come

15:12

from. So. I'm probably read

15:14

and massive was too much into the

15:16

lattice. consider this a few. Had any

15:19

thoughts or not. I mean. Bond.

15:21

Is quintessentially British. As he

15:23

said, there have been. Attempts

15:26

to has in L and

15:28

an American bombers let's say,

15:30

and and I and other

15:32

countries is all. But they're

15:34

not fond, they're just you

15:36

know there. Were adjusted

15:38

attempts to coffee some of that formula

15:40

that the British this of Bond is

15:42

is part of who he is. and

15:45

I think that's still true. Ah

15:47

miss than true in the last.

15:49

he sells these thinkers even the

15:51

settings in London. the symbols the

15:53

the bulldog, the flags or that,

15:55

the crown and so on. there's

15:58

still rife with those. Figures.

16:01

As symbols, so thing is

16:03

British, This is essential Again,

16:06

Yeah, I mean that sort of. Saints.

16:08

I think he sets up

16:10

to to different maybe interpretations

16:13

or ah different concerns about

16:15

about. British. Identity, Patriotism

16:17

and so on over

16:19

the years. I mean

16:21

interestingly, the activists who

16:23

played Hans has and

16:25

always had obviously. Connery.

16:28

Scorsese though I have read that

16:30

and he one of the things

16:32

I liked about Connery. I found

16:35

because they were thinking about the

16:37

film. It was important

16:39

for that film to appeal to

16:42

American audiences as well as as

16:44

British audiences. They thought his accent

16:46

with kind of mid Atlantic and

16:49

else wasn't to British but would

16:51

would sort of appeal broadly thought

16:53

into his his his Scottish, I'm

16:56

and we have. Ah, George

16:58

Lazenby his course australian aren't

17:00

the present process and we've

17:02

got. Quintessentially. English

17:04

Roger Moore. Who

17:07

am I missing here from Saddam? him

17:09

and he tells him his wells, a

17:11

police. And. Then. Pierce

17:14

Brosnan as Irish. And

17:16

then, but to Craig's whose English

17:18

So we we kind of have

17:21

covered in the whole United Kingdom?

17:23

There. And and Ireland's I'm

17:25

and A So again it will be

17:28

very interesting to see who they choose

17:30

and in a may be that maybe

17:32

this is just a coincidence because they've

17:34

certainly don't for the best that for

17:37

the show but the have covered that

17:39

whole range and would be fascinating to

17:41

see I'm who is chosen next and

17:43

whether they reflect you know a degree

17:46

of of diversity of for says snus

17:48

or with then at night back factors

17:50

were that might be I I don't

17:52

think it'll be American. Citizens

17:55

I think they will be British, but

17:57

Chino. At a new British

17:59

Indian. be really interesting. I really

18:01

would. I was just thinking lighter, Felix

18:03

lighter doesn't have quite the same ring

18:06

to it does it? No, he's

18:08

no. So what the listeners

18:11

don't know is that we've got

18:13

a table beside us with

18:15

some of our holdings that

18:17

relate to James Bond. Some

18:20

of them are merchandise from the

18:22

movies. Some of them are

18:24

based on cigarettes that Ian Fleming

18:26

had Bond Smoke from the

18:29

place where he got the maid in Morelands in

18:31

London. We have the book that

18:34

the name James Bond, where it comes from,

18:36

we have a number of other artifacts here.

18:38

But just before we go on to those

18:40

Alexis, like at the Spine Museum, most

18:43

people's ideas of espionage

18:45

that come through our doors,

18:48

their ideas really come from

18:50

movies, some popular culture. And

18:53

that's just the way it is. So we're

18:55

in this place where

18:57

we meet them there. And then we're

18:59

trying to inform them about the real

19:01

world of intelligence and espionage. And

19:03

you get some people that are involved in the

19:05

real world of intelligence and espionage that pour a

19:07

lot of cold water on

19:09

Bond and are quite dismissive of

19:12

it. But actually, the links

19:15

are really, really interesting. Ian Fleming was

19:17

the former intelligence officer, of course, but

19:20

here in our collection, we've got the

19:22

John Walker case, the code

19:24

for which was 007. We

19:26

have a Walther PPK that belonged to

19:28

Robert Hanson because Robert Hanson was a

19:31

huge James Bond fan. I can think of

19:34

another couple of dozen examples like

19:36

this off the top of my head. So I

19:38

know that this is something that you've studied in the past.

19:40

So just before we move on to the rest of the

19:42

artifacts, the real world of

19:44

intelligence and espionage and Bond help

19:47

us understand that connection between them.

19:49

Well, yeah, I think sometimes people

19:52

think there's this impervious war between

19:54

fact and fiction in intelligence.

19:57

And that's simply not true. We

20:00

know that intelligence

20:02

officers read

20:04

spy novels and go

20:07

and see TV shows about

20:09

spies and movies, perhaps more

20:12

than most people, because they're interested

20:14

in that topic. And

20:17

there are lots of examples of people

20:19

being inspired to go

20:22

into intelligence because of their interest

20:25

in spies that

20:27

came from popular culture. One

20:31

of my favorite examples of this

20:33

is actually Vladimir Putin, who

20:36

was so inspired by a

20:39

Soviet spy movie and

20:42

has actually claimed that that's

20:44

what really got him interested in this idea

20:47

of serving this cause, bigger than himself and

20:49

so on. But there's lots of examples of

20:51

that. And I think this

20:55

idea that, oh, that's fiction and

20:57

this is reality, that they're two

20:59

completely separate worlds is not realistic,

21:01

frankly. And

21:04

the public learns a lot

21:06

about intelligence, what they

21:09

think happens in the intelligence world,

21:11

whose spies are, how they act.

21:14

Intelligence officers from watching

21:16

TV and reading books and seeing movies.

21:19

And of course they do. How

21:21

would they not? I

21:24

mean, the intelligence world isn't

21:26

exactly hugely forthcoming in

21:29

trying to educate the public about

21:31

what intelligence really is and what

21:33

it does. That's what we

21:36

do here at the Spine Museum.

21:38

I think we fill that really,

21:40

that big gap, frankly, of trying

21:42

to explain what intelligence is and

21:44

what the realities are. But

21:46

of course most of our visitors walk into

21:48

this building with ideas

21:50

in their heads about whose

21:53

spies are and how they act, even if

21:55

they kind of know that's not really true.

21:58

And I think that those... expectations and

22:01

assumptions, it's really important to

22:03

recognize those. And there's, again,

22:06

lots of examples of

22:08

how that kind of spills

22:10

over into the real world.

22:12

I've studied the 1960s, which

22:14

is the era when Bond

22:17

really just explodes in

22:19

popular culture internationally. And

22:21

one of my favorite examples is

22:23

a great article about popularity

22:26

of Bond in Italy at

22:28

this time, and they did this

22:31

questionnaire that came out

22:33

in an Italian magazine where I think it

22:35

was an article, sorry, in an

22:37

Italian magazine about spies and things. And

22:40

they got all these letters

22:42

coming in from the public

22:44

asking questions about

22:46

spies and about becoming

22:49

intelligence agents with very

22:51

specific questions which

22:53

are clearly influenced by popular culture,

22:55

like, do I get an expense

22:57

account? Exactly how many people

22:59

do I have to kill in a year?

23:02

I mean, they're kind of – and these

23:04

are serious questions. And they were

23:06

obviously inspired by the movies. And I

23:08

think to ignore that influence is

23:11

just, you know, is ignoring the

23:13

reality of how people learn about

23:15

what intelligence is and what intelligence

23:18

officers do. So I think,

23:20

as you put it, nicely meeting

23:23

the public and our visitors where they are

23:25

is really important in that sense

23:27

and saying, look, you know, we understand what your

23:30

expectations are and where it comes from, but

23:32

now let's break that down a little bit

23:34

and let's start showing you

23:37

what the reality of the

23:40

intelligence world really is. And that's what we

23:42

do at the museum. And we fill that

23:44

educational space, which I think is a really

23:46

important role. Oscar

23:52

Wilde once said that life imitates

23:54

art far more than art imitates

23:56

life. In the case of James Bond,

23:59

I think we can agree. it's a little bit of

24:01

both. Both the novels and

24:03

the films borrow heavily from real life. Ian

24:06

Fleming is said to have based many of

24:08

the characters in the Bond franchise after people

24:10

he knew during his time in naval intelligence,

24:12

most notably gaining inspiration for the character

24:15

M from his own

24:17

boss, Admiral John Godfrey. Cassina

24:19

Royale was directly inspired by one

24:21

of Fleming's wartime trips to Portugal.

24:24

Then, after leaving a

24:26

packed casino one night, Fleming reportedly

24:28

said to Godfrey, what if

24:30

those men had been German secret service

24:32

agents and suppose we had cleaned them

24:35

out of their money? Now

24:37

that would have been exciting." Real

24:40

life has often seemed to take a page out of

24:43

Bond's book as well. Just ahead

24:45

in this episode, Andrew and Alexis will

24:47

discuss the links between some of Bond's famous

24:49

gadgets and real spy tools used in

24:51

the field. And while MI6

24:53

has yet to adopt Bond's invisible cart,

24:56

I for one still hold out hope. We'll

25:05

be right back after this. Now

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spycast. Just

28:10

to start digging into the artifacts a little

28:12

bit more, so this eye

28:14

that we have, a bionic eye, it's

28:16

a prop on loan from Eon Productions

28:18

who've been involved with all of the

28:21

movies and just going on to how

28:23

the real world of espionage and

28:26

popular culture intersect, to

28:29

me this is basically, there's

28:31

a strong connection here to the

28:34

growing fusion between

28:37

human beings and machines

28:39

or synthetic

28:42

or artificial materials

28:44

which are often called cybernetic

28:46

organisms or cyborgs. So this

28:49

is something we're increasingly seeing

28:51

where people are getting implants

28:53

or machines that can augment

28:55

the way in which they

28:57

interact with the world and

28:59

this eye in the movie helps

29:01

you record,

29:03

see, audio, visual, material

29:06

and then in the

29:08

movie this goes

29:10

to Blofeld who's in prison and

29:13

through this eye Blofeld can be somewhere

29:15

that he physically isn't. So I'm not

29:17

saying that we have something exactly like

29:19

this but this is

29:21

the general trend that we're

29:23

heading in terms

29:26

of espionage,

29:28

tradecraft and so forth, would you agree? Yeah,

29:31

I think so. I mean this is the

29:35

gadgets, the technology in

29:37

Bond. I think it doesn't

29:40

work unless it's credible in some sense

29:43

and we do know that, at least in

29:46

the films, sometimes the

29:50

Bond films have been ahead of their time

29:53

in terms of technology. My favorite

29:55

example of this is from

29:57

Russia with love, at the very beginning of

29:59

the film. of the film we see Bond canoodling

30:02

by the banks of a

30:04

river somewhere in England and

30:08

his satellite phone or his car phone goes

30:10

off. Actually it's not a satellite phone, he's

30:12

a pager, goes off

30:14

in his car and

30:16

of course he has to answer

30:18

that and it's calling him back to headquarters for

30:21

a mission. And it's a huge

30:23

thing. It's probably about, I don't know,

30:25

a foot and a half long or something like

30:27

that. It looks like one of those satellite phones

30:30

from the 90s. It's actually a pager

30:32

and it was a prototype and

30:35

at that time that was really

30:37

cutting edge technology and I think

30:40

the Bond films have been innovative in

30:42

that sense. And again I think it

30:45

doesn't work if it's so outlandish. People

30:47

say, I couldn't possibly be. I've

30:49

had a few examples of that.

30:52

Invisible cars, we won't talk about

30:54

that too much though you

30:56

can find things that say, well, it's kind

30:59

of feasible in this sense, mirrors and so

31:01

on. But the

31:03

bionic eye, no time to die, I think

31:06

we can all sort of say, yeah,

31:09

I can see that. I'm not sure how feasible it

31:12

really is. I doubt such a thing exists today

31:18

but I think we can kind of see,

31:21

yeah, I can see how that might work. Now

31:24

we do have an eyeball in

31:26

the museum on display. It's

31:28

actually a concealment device

31:30

from I believe the

31:33

World War II era. If

31:36

you had a, you have

31:38

a cavity there if you didn't have an eyeball that's

31:41

a great place to hide something and it's

31:43

sort of a fake eyeball that goes on

31:45

top there. So there is

31:47

some precedent in using the body

31:49

to conceal things. We certainly

31:52

have a number

31:54

of samples of that in the museum but

31:57

this idea of a bionic eye

31:59

is a very important that allows

32:01

you to sort of

32:04

remotely spy on somebody,

32:07

both a camera and an

32:09

audio device, or

32:11

a bug basically. I guess

32:14

you can see that as

32:17

one step toward our

32:19

becoming cyborgs. But you know the Bond

32:22

movies have used that

32:24

for a long, long time since Doctor

32:26

Now, who had a prosthetic

32:28

arm, right, which was a hook. And

32:31

then we can think of other examples.

32:33

Jules is obviously one that comes to

32:35

mind. So I think there's

32:37

been some precedence in that case

32:40

and this is kind of

32:42

the latest in technology. It's a great

32:44

little piece here that we've got.

32:46

It's sort of definitely I think the most

32:48

memorable piece of technology from that film. And

32:51

it's quite interesting to me. So the

32:54

way that the villain dies is because

32:56

Bond has a watch that

32:58

emits an electromagnetic pulse. And this is

33:00

something that's actually from the real world

33:03

of intelligence espionage, national

33:05

security. You can get nuclear

33:07

weapons that send out electromagnetic

33:09

pulses to try to basically

33:13

disable the other

33:15

side's ability to communicate with itself and

33:18

these types of things. So there's always a kernel

33:20

of truth in there. Otherwise it's just

33:22

completely outlandish. It's not believable at all.

33:24

But I mean, even thinking about self-driving

33:27

cars, I can't remember which Pierce Brosnan

33:29

movie is, but he's got the little

33:31

remote control and self-driving his car. Now

33:33

you can get a, you can go

33:36

and lease a Hyundai, get out of

33:38

the car and it will reverse park

33:40

it for you to save you having

33:43

to spend five minutes completely butchering the

33:45

operation yourself. So in some ways

33:47

I think the people are often poor a lot

33:49

of cold water again on these movies, but

33:52

I think in quite often they're pre-saging

33:55

technological developments that are coming down

33:57

the line that the general public aren't aware of.

34:00

I would contest that quite often that's

34:02

maybe the first place where they encounter this type

34:04

of stuff. Yeah, and I think

34:06

the genre in general of

34:09

the spy genre always

34:11

has to have one foot often

34:14

too in the real world. It's part

34:16

of what makes that genre appealing

34:19

and not science fiction. It

34:21

takes place in the real world and

34:23

whether that is you know some of

34:25

the technology or real

34:29

world threats. It

34:31

has to be relatable I think and recognizable

34:33

in that sense. It's part of what

34:36

makes spy film that

34:38

fits into that whole genre and

34:40

I think that's what we like

34:42

about it. And again it's a

34:44

fictional space for thinking

34:48

about talking about those

34:50

tensions, those international tensions

34:54

in national security that you know most

34:56

of us most people don't get to

34:58

discuss all the time or even think

35:00

about and it's kind of a safe

35:02

space where we can explore those tensions

35:04

and that's I think what spy fiction

35:06

is all about. And yeah I think

35:08

being ahead of its time cutting edge

35:10

you know I think we'd like to

35:12

think that our intelligence agencies

35:14

are on the cutting edge right and

35:17

do have technology which we don't have

35:19

anymore. Well sorry anymore we don't have

35:21

at the moment and we'd like to

35:23

think that there are a few steps

35:26

ahead of us I think that makes

35:28

us feel better about our national security

35:30

and so I think in that sense

35:32

again it's credible to think oh wow

35:34

they've got some cool stuff you know

35:37

they haven't seen yet. So yeah I

35:39

think that that is important and yeah

35:41

I mean there's again there are actually

35:43

examples from the movies of

35:45

them using actual prototypes that

35:48

hadn't been released yet that weren't on the

35:50

market yet. And I think there's

35:52

another example that I came across and

35:54

I think it's Bill Casey the

35:57

CIA director under Ronald Reagan.

36:00

And I think he goes to watch

36:02

a Bond movie and comes

36:05

across biometrics and apparently he

36:07

comes out and says, what the heck is this stuff, you

36:09

know, we need to get on top of it. So

36:12

there is this interplay between fact

36:15

and fiction. And of course we have

36:17

one of John F. Kennedy's favorite books

36:19

was from Russia with Love. We

36:21

have a copy of it here in the museum.

36:24

And John Amendez, former CIA chief

36:26

of disguise, good friend in the

36:28

museum, has certainly

36:31

told us that she

36:33

would come to work the night after

36:35

Mission Impossible, a really popular TV show

36:38

had been on and with

36:41

lots of innovative technology and

36:43

especially disguise. And

36:46

her team would get asked, hey, can we

36:48

do that? After

36:51

having seen something on TV, and she certainly

36:54

told us that. So I think, yes,

36:57

the movies, TV, there's sometimes a head

36:59

of reality and reality is inspired. So

37:02

I guess, again, it's not as simple as just fact

37:04

and fiction. There is a sort

37:07

of a relationship there between them and

37:09

borrow from each other. And

37:11

I think I also recall the KGB,

37:13

I remember reading somewhere that after a

37:15

Bond movie would come out, they would

37:17

watch it and then they would

37:20

be saying to themselves, you know, does the

37:22

West really have this or is this something

37:24

that we can do or, you know, what's

37:26

going on here? So it also plays this

37:29

interest in mediating role in

37:31

the code as well, I think. But

37:33

just to go back to your point about one

37:36

foot in fact and one foot

37:38

in fiction, Ian Fleming is

37:40

the perfect example, right? Naval intelligence officer,

37:42

and then he goes on to become

37:44

an author, right? Some of these James

37:46

Bond novels. Ian

37:52

Fleming was born to a wealthy family in London on

37:54

May 28th, 1908. He

37:57

was educated at some of the finest

37:59

institutions. The in England and across

38:01

Europe but was never known to

38:03

be the highest receiver or brightest

38:06

Alerts class. He much preferred skipping

38:08

science and spending his time on

38:10

sports driving cars and solidifying his

38:12

reputation as a woman. Either. You.

38:14

Can see where some Bond inspiration. Came from.

38:18

After a decade of work as a journalist

38:20

and later a banker, Fleming was recruited into

38:22

the Naval Intelligence Division during World War Two.

38:26

He was directly involved in Operation

38:28

Mincemeat, a deception operation aimed

38:30

at disguising the Allied invasion of

38:33

Sicily, Operation Ruthless, a covert

38:35

attempts to gain access to German

38:37

naval enigma codes. And yes, Operations

38:40

Goldeneye, which was a real operation

38:42

devised by Swimming that outlined the

38:44

plan to monitor Spain during

38:46

the Second. World. Where. He

38:50

died at the young age of fifty six

38:52

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38:54

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38:56

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your show. Let's

40:37

go on to the beginning of that story and

40:40

Fleming going to Jamaica, writing the

40:42

books and in this book that

40:44

we have here, Birds

40:46

of the West Indies. So could you just

40:49

tell us a little bit more about that

40:51

and about why this is important for the

40:53

story of James Bond? Well because

40:55

Fleming himself has a background

40:58

in intelligence and so we know

41:00

that he was writing or with

41:03

a certain knowledge of intelligence

41:06

in his head. It's been during World War

41:08

II, naval intelligence and there's

41:11

been all this interest in looking and trying

41:13

to find elements in Fleming's

41:15

novels like this was inspired by

41:17

this, this was based on this,

41:19

whether it's characters or missions and

41:22

everything. And one of

41:24

the interesting missions is who's James Bond?

41:27

Who inspired Fleming to write this

41:29

character? And the name itself, James

41:31

Bond, people were interested where does

41:34

that come from? And luckily I

41:36

think Fleming's really put

41:39

that to rest. He himself

41:41

said that he had this

41:43

book Field Guide of Birds of the

41:45

West Indies, authored James

41:48

Bond and

41:50

he chose that name James Bond

41:52

because he literally thought it

41:54

was the most dull and boring

41:56

name possible. dull.

42:01

And he thought, that's the name I

42:03

want for my character. So

42:06

that's apparently where he took that

42:08

name of James Bond. As

42:10

Fleming said, Fleming said lots of things,

42:12

and that doesn't mean that people necessarily

42:15

believe him. But for example,

42:17

there's been lots of speculation

42:19

about where 007 comes from, lots

42:21

of speculation as to

42:23

whether James Bond was based on a real

42:25

person or not. And

42:29

it drives me absolutely mad. I have

42:31

to tell you, some of the things

42:33

that I just cannot stand, because you'll

42:35

see it everywhere, you know, certain people.

42:38

He was the inspiration for James Bond.

42:42

And I don't, you know, I

42:44

don't think we'll ever really know. And I

42:46

believe that Fleming might have said at some

42:48

point he was an amalgamation, which seems

42:50

to make sense to me. He really wasn't

42:52

based on any one person. But

42:55

we know that the name, and I

42:57

think that makes a lot of sense, came

42:59

from the book that I'm holding my hand

43:01

right now by James Bond.

43:04

And it's quite interesting because Fleming, just for

43:06

listeners that don't know, he buys some land

43:08

in the north coast of Jamaica. He builds

43:11

an estate that goes on to become the

43:14

Golden Eye Estate. He writes,

43:16

I think, all of the

43:18

books there. He spends one a year.

43:20

That was his schedule. I believe he was

43:23

working at the Times, at

43:25

the London newspaper. And he

43:27

would take off time during the winter, go

43:30

to his estate in Jamaica with his wife.

43:32

And he had a routine of getting up

43:35

early in the morning, going for a swim,

43:37

you know, writing for a number of hours,

43:40

not that many, churning

43:42

out a certain number of words

43:44

or pages every day. And that's

43:47

what he did continuously. He wrote

43:49

these quite quickly on

43:51

his typewriter in Jamaica.

43:53

Didn't work too hard at it. And

43:56

he managed to turn out one a year.

44:00

I have this quote here actually, that

44:02

I believe this is what Fleming wrote

44:04

to the widow of the James Bond

44:06

that wrote the book Feel Guide of

44:08

Birds of the West Indies. He

44:10

said, it struck me that this brief,

44:13

unromantic Anglo-Saxon and yet very

44:15

masculine name was just what I

44:17

needed. And so a second James

44:19

Bond was born. Nice.

44:22

Which I think is pretty nice. And actually

44:24

just the other week I was rereading

44:27

Dr. Noh, the

44:30

novel and in Dr. Noh, one

44:32

of the parts of that book is

44:34

that there's an island off

44:36

the coast of Jamaica, which is

44:39

a place where lots of guano

44:42

is, which is basically bird poo.

44:44

And there's this whole part of

44:46

the novel where there's

44:48

a couple of members of the American

44:51

Audubon Society, like a

44:53

bird watching, bird preservation society. They go

44:55

to this island and they disappear and

44:58

the Audubon Society have a

45:00

very powerful lobby that's involved

45:03

in preserving and looking after

45:05

birds in the Western Hemisphere

45:07

and so forth. So this

45:09

actually does creep into the

45:11

novels as well. And Dr.

45:13

Noh, the Audubon Society, bird

45:15

watching, or anthology. Jamaica, of

45:17

course. Jamaica. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

45:20

Very, very fascinating. And I

45:22

think that this is a good point to jump

45:24

onto the 007 question

45:26

because as I understand it, the James

45:29

Bond one is more or less, you

45:31

know, we could probably find a couple

45:33

of other places, but more or less

45:35

this one is put to bed, but

45:38

the 007, this is much more of

45:40

a reading, the tea leaves one.

45:42

So let's go on to that. And one of the

45:44

artifacts that we have here is

45:46

one of the theories. So they just

45:48

want to describe the artifact for our

45:50

listeners and tell us what this

45:53

theory is. Yeah. So what I have

45:55

here is a pen. It's

45:58

a KGB pen commemorating. The.

46:00

Sixtieth Anniversary of

46:02

the Kgb is

46:04

a double o

46:06

Sex. and it's.

46:09

And. As such as the traditional

46:11

safe of a of a

46:13

shield hair and in the

46:15

middle with gastar a. Kind.

46:18

Of success or and for them which

46:20

has double oh and then Kgb and

46:22

Russian letters that the top Sixty commemorating

46:25

that sixtieth anniversary. I'm not on upset

46:27

sure what the double O sex and

46:29

was I believe that might have had

46:31

something to do with counterintelligence. Up

46:33

with got them. Has. Soared

46:36

the shield and all that kind of thing

46:38

up. Here

46:40

so again, it's it's It's very

46:42

tempting to think that Fleming might

46:44

have found his him for his

46:47

inspiration for the Double and Sex

46:49

and which importantly, Is

46:51

that sex? And in M I

46:53

Six with a license to kill?

46:55

Ah, that's how you earn your

46:58

dump allow I'm that may be

47:00

Fleming was inspired by the Kgb,

47:02

but there are so many theories

47:04

about the double. Oh, and where

47:06

that comes from that saw this

47:08

is it's possibility this might be

47:10

one of them. It's a lovely.

47:13

Ardusat we have here but you

47:15

know there are theories. For example

47:17

from reds are kept playing at

47:19

a story about. And

47:22

American train that was called. A

47:25

double O seven since him playing

47:27

of course also having written that

47:30

the same story about him by.

47:33

A who We have Fleming would have read that.

47:36

In. The the oldest theory goes

47:38

back to the sixteenth century English

47:40

explorer John De. Who. Was

47:43

said to spied for Queen

47:45

Elizabeth of England who would

47:47

sign says communiques to circles.

47:50

And a sort of elongated

47:52

seven. Service.

47:55

circles currently kind of my elf a

47:57

symbol for your eyes only and the

47:59

theory that Fleming took that

48:01

code after reading a

48:03

biography of Deet. No evidence of

48:06

that, but that's a theory. The

48:08

Zimmerman telegram, famously intercepted

48:10

and decoded by British

48:13

intelligence in 1917, helping

48:15

to get America into World War I, was

48:18

coded 0075. Apparently, 007

48:25

was the international dialing code for the Soviet

48:27

Union. I think that's one of

48:29

the quite interesting things. And then,

48:32

of course, Georgetown in Washington,

48:34

D.C., Bastion for spies

48:36

in the nation's capital, zip

48:39

code for that, 200007. Now,

48:44

Fleming himself claimed in an interview, and

48:47

to say Fleming said lots of contradictory

48:49

things in interviews, said he took the

48:52

idea of the 00 section from the

48:55

fact that at the beginning of World War

48:57

II, all top secret signals from the Admiralty

49:00

had a 00 prefix. That

49:02

sounds quite compelling to me. And I

49:04

believe there's also a 00 as part of

49:07

FOE. That's the body

49:09

created by Churchill, which did lots of sabotage

49:11

abroad. And I think there was a 00

49:14

involved in that. So it

49:17

seems to me quite, if I had to guess,

49:19

I would say it was probably inspired by

49:21

something from World War II, which offered a lot

49:23

of inspiration for Fleming. That's when he worked in

49:25

intelligence. But there are many other theories. I

49:27

only named a few of them. I'm sure people

49:30

listening to this may have heard

49:32

of others as well. We don't

49:34

really know. There is no 00

49:36

section in MI6, as far as I

49:38

know. And there is no

49:41

license to kill, which

49:43

is earned by being

49:45

an MI6 officer. And

49:47

the eyes only, that's something that

49:50

comes from the real world, for

49:53

your eyes only, or for these people's

49:55

eyes only, or five eyes only. So

49:57

it's only five countries that can. that

50:01

are clear that can view the information and so forth.

50:03

I feel like it's a stroke of

50:05

genius on Fleming's behalf. And it's difficult

50:07

to know whether this is just because

50:09

I've been culturally conditioned into 007. But

50:12

it seems to me that

50:14

007 just has a ring

50:17

that any other one just doesn't have.

50:19

005, 006, 008, none of them. There's

50:23

something about that number seven as

50:25

well, right? It's almost a transcultural

50:27

phenomenon where seven is seen

50:29

as a magic number or a special

50:31

kind of number for many different people

50:34

in different cultures. But again, this

50:36

could just be because I've been raised in

50:38

the world of 007 that it makes sense

50:41

to me. It's possible. I

50:43

mean, Fleming is not a great writer,

50:45

in my opinion. No

50:48

literary genius. But he

50:50

did have a way with names, didn't he? I

50:54

mean, I think some of his characters have fantastic

50:56

names that are all familiar with Goldfinger,

50:59

Hugo Drax, of course, some

51:01

of the women's names.

51:03

Karamanga. Karamanga. He

51:06

did have a, you could say maybe had

51:08

a way with words. Perhaps he

51:10

knew that that sort of, you know, fell

51:12

off the tongue in a very sort of

51:15

engaging way. Thanks

51:34

for listening to this episode of

51:36

Spycast. Remember that next week

51:38

we'll release part two of this

51:40

special episode celebrating the 70th anniversary

51:43

of James Bond. Please

51:45

follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever

51:47

you get your podcasts. If

51:49

you have feedback, you can reach us

51:51

by email at spycast at spymuseum.org or

51:54

on Twitter at

51:56

INCLSpycast. Coming

51:58

up in next week's show. Blum

52:02

was a naval officer, Commander Blum.

52:05

You know, Fleming was

52:07

borrowing from what he knew. I

52:09

think that's what's important. And

52:12

I think it must have been fun

52:14

for Fleming, who sort of reveled in

52:17

this idea that Fleming and his lifestyle

52:19

in some way echoed Bond

52:21

and his lifestyle as well.

52:24

If you go to

52:26

our page, thecyberwire.com/ podcast/spycast,

52:28

you can find links

52:30

to further resources, detailed

52:32

show notes, and full

52:35

transcripts. I'm Erin Dietrich,

52:37

and your host is Dr. Andrew Hammond.

52:39

The rest of the team involved

52:42

in the show is Mike Mincey,

52:44

Memphis Bond III, Emily Colletta, Afua

52:46

Inakwa, Elliot Pelzmann, Trey

52:48

Hester, and Jen Iben. This

52:50

show is brought to you from

52:52

the home of the world's preeminent

52:54

collection of intelligence and espionage-related artifacts,

52:57

the International Eye.