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just hope will help you to navigate this

1:02

squiggly career that we all have with a

1:04

bit more clarity and control. And

1:06

if you are a first-time listener, welcome. You

1:08

might not know about some of the other

1:10

resources that we create to go along with

1:12

the episode. So every one of our episodes

1:14

comes with a pod sheet, that's just a

1:16

one-page summary to help you learn,

1:18

reflect and take action. We also have something called

1:21

Pod Mail, which is an email that comes out

1:23

every Tuesday. It just puts all the links to

1:25

all the things that we talk about in one

1:27

place for you. And we have Pod Plus, which

1:29

runs most weeks. Not every week just because of

1:32

other commitments we've got but it happens every Thursday

1:34

morning when we can do it. It's 30 minutes

1:36

and it is a brilliant community of like-minded learners

1:38

who all sort of contribute to the conversation and

1:41

bring their own ideas and it's just a nice

1:43

way to learn if you want to dive a

1:45

bit deeper. All the links that are on our

1:47

website. So if you just go to amazingif.com, head

1:49

to the podcast page and you will find everything

1:52

there. This week

1:54

we're talking about saying yes,

1:57

no and don't know. So why do we think this is

1:59

a good time to do this? important? Why do we think this

2:01

is a topic? Well, when

2:03

you say yes, you stretch your

2:05

skills, discover new skills and often

2:07

uncover potential. So there's lots of

2:10

reasons for saying yes to things.

2:13

When you say no, it helps you

2:15

to make progress on priorities, so things that

2:17

are most important to you and it stops

2:19

you, I think, from getting pulled in lots

2:21

of different directions. And when

2:24

we say we don't know, it

2:26

gives us time to think. I

2:28

also believe it builds our confidence that you

2:30

don't need to know everything to be good

2:32

at your job. And I think

2:34

we practice when we say I don't know, being

2:36

vulnerable. And actually, often that

2:39

builds trust between people. There's an interesting

2:41

article I read recently where they said,

2:43

I would much rather have

2:45

a manager who says I don't

2:47

know than a manager who sort of

2:49

tries to fake it or feels under

2:51

pressure, you know, to like blur to

2:54

make something up, which I think

2:56

might feel counterintuitive sometimes. Maybe as a manager, you think,

2:58

oh, I should know the answer to that. So I've

3:00

got to say something. But actually, people would prefer you

3:02

to actually say, oh, I don't know or I've

3:04

not thought about that. So Helen, of

3:06

those three saying yes, no and don't know, I

3:08

think they are all kind of

3:11

connected but distinct skills, the kind of the ability

3:13

to say those three different things. Which one do

3:15

you find easiest and which do you find hardest?

3:18

I'm sorry, I'm having a little private giggle to myself

3:20

because Sarah has done the preparation for today's podcast off

3:22

the back of a conversation we had last week and

3:24

she's already written some assumptions about the one that she

3:27

thinks that I would find hardest to do. I'm trying

3:29

to be helpful. I know, I know but it just

3:31

made me laugh because like, yeah, she's totally right, you

3:33

know, and someone just knows you really, really well. So

3:35

I'll start with the one that I found hardest because

3:38

we both know it clearly, which is the saying no

3:40

to things. I kind of have this like desire

3:42

to do everything and it feels like a waste of

3:44

time if I don't. And so I

3:46

really struggle to say no, I don't want to

3:48

miss out on things or not be part of

3:50

things. So yeah, I struggle, it's not my automatic

3:52

reaction to say no and I find it, I

3:55

find it quite hard to do. I think

3:57

I'm all right. I mean, I think the yes and the don't

3:59

know. I'm quite good at both. I definitely say

4:01

yes to a lot of things, but I think

4:03

I'm also okay with the saying that I don't

4:06

know. I think I don't have a confidence gremlin

4:08

about admitting that I've

4:10

got a knowledge gap. It's just not

4:12

something that kind of goes in my

4:14

head. I definitely see it when

4:17

it affects other people, but that's not something I think

4:19

gets in my way. To be honest, my inability to

4:21

say no is so big. It's

4:23

so big that I think that's the thing for me to

4:25

focus on. What about you?

4:28

Obviously the opposite to you. Obviously, it's

4:30

always. I think our regular listeners will

4:32

know. I find

4:35

it hardest to say yes, particularly

4:38

to things that scare me or feel

4:40

like I would be doing something a

4:42

bit different. I think I am

4:45

good at making excuses about why

4:47

not. Why shouldn't I go and do

4:49

that thing? Why shouldn't I say yes? Probably

4:52

because you're good at the other one, because I've

4:54

got lots of practice and I'm good at being

4:56

clear on when to say no and prioritizing. You

4:59

know your skill in one area can

5:01

sort of be unhelpful in another. And

5:04

I think we've just basically described that almost by

5:06

being probably very good at one of these, then

5:09

it sort of gets in your way. Maybe

5:11

it being as good at the other. So

5:13

that's definitely, definitely true for me. A

5:15

bit like you, I'm not worried about saying I

5:18

don't know. I think some of that might have

5:20

also come from earlier in my

5:22

career, I spent most of my time as

5:24

a generalist. So I

5:26

had lots of practice moving in

5:29

different departments and working in very different

5:31

sorts of teams. So I was

5:33

never the most expert person.

5:36

And almost by the time I then moved from

5:38

being more of a generalist to a specialist, which

5:41

is how I sort of see myself now probably

5:43

more than I ever have before, as it happens

5:45

a deep level of knowledge about probably fewer things.

5:48

Even now, I don't ever put pressure

5:50

on myself to feel like, oh, well, I should

5:53

know everything about career development. I'm sort

5:55

of lucky that that's come at a point where

5:57

you feel quite confident in yourself and your career.

6:00

So I don't know whether there's a generalist specialist link here

6:02

to kind of the confidence to say I don't know,

6:04

but it certainly kind of struck

6:06

a chord with me thinking about it that

6:08

way. I definitely have. I had times in

6:11

my career when the don't know thing has

6:13

probably been bigger. I was just trying to

6:15

think about when certain companies that I worked

6:17

in where the context was very expert, you

6:19

know, like they're, you know, people had like

6:21

what I would call like very hard professional

6:24

skills. So like at Capital One, you know,

6:26

people were statisticians and numbers was like the

6:28

hard professional skill that people valued or

6:30

like at BP, a lot of those

6:32

people were sort of engineers who'd worked

6:35

in the organisation for a long time.

6:37

So perhaps when I was an outlier

6:39

in an organisation that had a very

6:41

sort of hard skill

6:43

set, I think maybe my don't

6:45

know felt a bit more exposing. So I'm just

6:47

kind of, I don't want people to think, oh

6:50

no, I've got that one of those two don't.

6:52

I think Sarah and I have the, I guess

6:54

the sort of privilege now of working with each

6:56

other. We've known each other for a very long

6:58

time and we sort of try

7:00

to practise this sort of regularly to create

7:02

a safe space for the don't knows to happen.

7:04

But I don't think I've always worked in that

7:06

environment. So before

7:09

we get onto the how's, let's just pause

7:11

on the when's. So when might you want

7:13

to say yes, no, or don't know? So

7:15

when you want to increase your

7:18

number of yeses, I think is

7:20

when you are feeling stuck, if

7:22

you're stalling or maybe in particular, if

7:24

you want a bit of an on

7:26

repeat pattern. So I read a really

7:28

good quote last week that said familiarity

7:31

breeds complacency. Quite

7:35

so. Parsh but fair is really

7:37

brutal. But you know

7:39

that sense of, you know, when was

7:41

the last time I did something for

7:43

the first time? You know, what am

7:45

I learning now that's new to me?

7:48

That sort of we all do need,

7:50

I think at the right moment, doses

7:52

of yes, so that we can

7:55

both do things differently. So

7:57

we don't get stuck. But also we

7:59

don't want to limit our

8:01

learning to where we are today. So

8:04

not only can it sort of move us out of kind

8:06

of that comfort or the comfort zone if you want to

8:08

kind of think about it in that way, I

8:11

do think it's you then put yourself in

8:13

new situations where suddenly you might see that

8:15

you've got skills and strengths that you just

8:17

didn't appreciate. That's more about exploring your potential

8:20

I think. Asking yourself

8:22

that question, where does familiarity lead

8:24

to complacency in my career? I

8:26

think it creates some really interesting

8:29

insights of people. I might reflect on it afterwards.

8:33

And then when to say no, I suspect

8:35

this one everyone will recognise because even

8:37

if like me you're okay with saying

8:39

no, we all feel overwhelmed. We all

8:41

have those moments of being busy, just

8:43

being busy. I often reflect

8:46

on I know this is happening to me

8:48

when I get to the end of a

8:50

week and I feel depleted but I can't

8:52

tell you what I've done and I'm always

8:54

like that doesn't feel like a good place

8:56

to be. And if you've also,

8:58

thinking about it more positively, if you've got

9:00

something that's really important that you want to

9:02

progress, so you've got a goal

9:04

or an objective, perhaps you're working on a project

9:07

or a milestone that you really need to make

9:09

happen, you know sort of

9:11

really spotting those moments where saying no becomes

9:13

even more important. So if saying

9:15

yes is even more important, perhaps if

9:17

you do want to really kind of stretch yourself

9:19

or you're feeling stuck, saying no

9:22

is even more important. If you're like I really

9:24

want to make this thing happen, it's really important

9:26

to me, it's important to my career, important to

9:28

my organisation. That's the moment where like

9:30

if there's any moment where you need to start practising saying no,

9:32

I think it's then. My signals

9:34

for saying no are when I start saying sorry

9:36

too much. Oh I'm sorry I can't make

9:38

it, I'm sorry I've like you know just when sorry I'm on

9:41

sorry overload I'm like hmm that's because you're not kind of

9:43

like kind of being able to do

9:45

everything that you want to. Or when I've got

9:47

too many pieces of paper that I'm carrying around

9:50

with me because most of my pieces of paper

9:52

about lists, I can look at my desk now

9:54

and I can see a lot of pieces of paper that I've got. There's

9:56

a to-do list and some ideas for, there's

9:59

just a lot of lists and I. know

10:01

that if I just have to keep carrying

10:03

an ever-growing stack of paper around with me,

10:05

it's because I'm not completing things that I've

10:08

started because I haven't said no to enough.

10:11

So they're my little very practical, tangible

10:13

sort of signals. You're

10:15

just adding, it feels like you're like very, it's very additive.

10:18

And when to say you don't know. So

10:21

I think there is a

10:23

very basic one here, which I don't know whether

10:25

everyone will agree with that too because I'm sure

10:27

you could find some evidence that sometimes it is

10:29

okay maybe to fake it until you make it.

10:31

But when you don't know, I do

10:34

think it is better to say you don't know than

10:36

to try and make something

10:38

up. I think sometimes people might feel pressure to

10:40

have to come up with an answer. I think

10:42

that's a really hard, a really hard thing to

10:44

do. The other thing I was thinking about this,

10:47

I was reflecting on like when else would you

10:49

say you don't know. In

10:51

those moments, when you

10:53

have a niggle that something isn't right

10:55

or something isn't quite clicking and

10:58

you don't know why yet. So we're

11:01

all very used to that, you know, don't

11:03

share problems, share solutions. But sometimes

11:05

I think you are just in that moment of thinking,

11:07

I don't know why this is not working, but

11:10

I do feel like it isn't working. And I

11:12

do think it is okay sometimes to signal that

11:14

to say, I'm feeling a bit

11:16

uncertain about this. I'm not sure yet what to

11:19

do or exactly what the answer is. But

11:22

you know, I do want to explore it a bit more. I do want

11:24

to think about it a bit more. Often these

11:26

are moments where you want to think a bit

11:28

more deeply or you want to kind of pause,

11:30

even if it's just momentarily, it's sort of giving

11:32

yourself that chance to think about something a bit

11:34

more deeply. Having said I am good at this,

11:37

I'm now challenging myself. I was thinking about, I

11:39

did a podcast the other week. I was, we

11:41

were on, I was on somebody else's podcast and

11:44

they asked me. Outrageous, there were other podcasts. Oh

11:46

did I not tell you I'm all just meeting

11:48

with somebody else for the Wiggly Careers podcast. Oh

11:50

my god, my goodness that happens. Some

11:53

people actually call it Wiggly Careers. I mean, can you

11:55

not? Wiggly Careers, someone said to me wobbly jobs

11:57

and I was like, let's just stick with it. Let's just stick with

11:59

it. I'm squiggly, everyone. No, but I was on this podcast

12:01

and they were asking me a question. The first one I was

12:03

like, I'm not sure. The questions that they

12:06

were asking me, I'm not

12:08

sure that I had brilliant answers for

12:11

and I think probably what I should have said,

12:13

I don't know, I probably should have just called

12:15

it in the conversation and said, oh, actually I

12:17

don't think I've got enough expertise in that area

12:19

to give your listeners a really good answer to

12:21

that. So shall we move on? I think, should

12:23

have said that. But you know what, I didn't.

12:26

I think I tried to answer it in like

12:28

the flow of the conversation and I've sort of

12:30

reflected on it afterwards and thought, I don't think

12:32

what I said was that clear

12:34

or compelling or useful. So then why

12:36

say it? But what I didn't say

12:38

and what we're advocating for is I

12:40

should have said some of the things that we're

12:42

gonna come on to and the ideas for action in a minute. But

12:44

I think sometimes the pressure of a situation,

12:47

that was a podcast conversation, but it could

12:49

have been a presentation, and

12:51

someone asks you a question. Sometimes that sort of

12:53

pressure of a situation can sometimes make you just

12:55

affect your ability to say the yeses, the nos

12:57

and the don't nos. So I get it. If

12:59

anyone else is listening and going, yes, that's what

13:01

happens to me. I get it. Cause it did

13:03

happen to me as well the other week. So

13:07

we're now gonna go into the how. We're gonna start with

13:09

yes, then we're gonna

13:11

talk about no, then we're gonna talk about don't

13:13

know. And in the spirit of practicing, we are

13:15

going to lead on the one that we are

13:17

not as good at. So I'm gonna talk about

13:19

some ideas for action on saying yes, and then

13:22

Helen can coach me through it. If

13:25

I miss anything, Helen's then gonna talk about how

13:27

she's gonna say no more often, and I'm gonna

13:29

leave you to enjoy. Enjoy, I'm

13:31

gonna enjoy that moment. And

13:34

then together, we will hopefully help with how to

13:36

say I don't know. So

13:39

idea for action one on yes,

13:41

is think about a yes if. So

13:44

this helps you to give a thoughtful

13:46

yes that sets you up for success.

13:49

And so sometimes I think we

13:51

don't say yes, because we

13:54

aren't sure how we're going to make it

13:56

happen, or we get nervous about,

13:58

you know the practice. realities of

14:01

the yes. It reminds me

14:03

of when Helen was speaking to Cal Newport

14:05

the other week for the Ask the Expert

14:07

episode, he talks about essentially

14:09

every yes does have an administrative burden

14:12

that comes with it. You know there's

14:14

always like there's always a lot to

14:16

do with every time you say yes

14:18

and so often I think sometimes I

14:21

should say yes to things but

14:23

I do get nervous about that. I'll

14:25

think I'm just sort of not sure

14:27

and then my default actually is to

14:30

say no even though maybe I could have

14:32

learned a lot from saying yes. So

14:34

yes if gets you to just think

14:36

through just the kind of the implications

14:39

of the yes to increase your confidence.

14:41

So we've got three yes ifs for you just to bring

14:44

this to life. So it might

14:46

be yes if there's someone else involved so

14:48

this is kind of a people yes. So

14:51

yeah I'd really like to get involved

14:53

in that event if I could work alongside with

14:55

someone from the team or a different team. So

14:57

you sort of it's a yes if there's someone

14:59

else which I think is a smart thing to

15:01

do. The second yes

15:04

is a time one or a sort

15:06

of time and place one. So yes

15:08

if there's a very clear time scale

15:10

to something. So really happy to volunteer

15:12

for that project if we can review

15:14

how it's working at the end of

15:16

August. So you're sort of saying yes

15:18

if that time the time scale is

15:20

very clear. And then the

15:22

final yes if is something else stops. So

15:24

this is being very clear on priorities which

15:26

I think probably relates to both this and

15:29

when we talk about no's. But

15:31

this one might sound like yep

15:33

I'd be really happy to get involved in

15:35

that piece of work if I can pause

15:37

project B in the meantime. You know

15:39

we can come back to it. So I think

15:42

it is a thoughtful yes. It's a

15:44

thought through yes and I

15:46

just like this idea of going people place priorities.

15:48

It's kind of a yes if

15:51

and that just helps you to

15:53

then I think practically feel

15:55

good about kind of saying the yes. I

15:57

think you feel like you're like I'm saying

16:00

yes in the right way for the right

16:02

reasons and also with the right things around

16:04

me. I find that reassuring. I

16:07

like it. I actually think even as somebody

16:09

who likes saying yes, I think

16:11

it would, I often, my yes comes from

16:13

a place of sort of energy and enthusiasm

16:15

but not always effectiveness. So I think, you

16:17

know, your yes if, I think it helps

16:19

to make, yeah, just a more kind of

16:21

effective way of opting into things. I might,

16:23

I might adapt it too. And

16:26

then the second one is the one that really

16:29

counts for me because I'm actually okay at that

16:31

first one. But the second one, the reason I

16:33

don't say yes, it would be because I would

16:35

be scared essentially. I would think,

16:37

and Helen and I were talking about this last

16:40

week about how we sometimes don't do things, just

16:42

because we think, oh, I just can't, I just

16:44

can't be bothered. Which sounds, and

16:46

actually it's, it's a little bit of laziness

16:50

and it's a little bit of,

16:52

it would be easy and not to. So

16:54

here we are trying to say yes

16:56

when you probably want to say no.

16:58

So I was like, right, okay, what

17:00

helps me here? Because sometimes I do

17:02

do this. And this is

17:04

where rather than saying yes if, idea

17:07

fraction two is yes because. So here

17:09

our job to do is

17:11

to talk ourselves in to saying

17:13

yes. So if you are like

17:15

me and you're naturally quite critical, I can

17:17

come up with all the reasons to say

17:21

no, no thanks. Basically yes, because

17:23

it's like no, no, no thanks

17:25

for all of these very good

17:27

reasons. The thing that

17:29

I do is I start the other way around.

17:32

So I sort of start from the opposites, from

17:34

the upside. Do I want to go to

17:36

that event? I mean, the answer to that regardless of what it

17:38

is, is pretty much always like no, no thanks. But

17:40

if I think about it differently, if

17:43

I'm like yes, because, yes, because I'd

17:46

get to meet people I've not met before.

17:48

Oh, some new like week ties or some

17:51

distant ties. And actually it's a good

17:53

way of bringing people together. Yes,

17:56

because actually I'm interested in the content

17:58

of what's going to be. be taught

18:00

about that event. So there's kind of a

18:02

learning motivation for me. And maybe it's yes,

18:04

because I can't remember the last time I

18:07

did something for the first time. And

18:09

so suddenly I go, hmm, three

18:11

yeses that are kind of nudging me towards

18:14

kind of the right answer. And

18:16

I did it recently actually where we had

18:18

an award that we were entering. And again,

18:21

really easy to say no, because you're just like,

18:23

can't make the space in the week, not got

18:26

loads of energy for it. Whereas

18:28

I then sort of did the yes,

18:30

because, and I thought, yes to entering

18:32

that award, because you always learn from

18:34

the process of entering for awards. Like

18:36

I knew that from sort of past

18:38

experience. Yes, because if you

18:40

do win, it's a chance to share

18:42

squiggly with more people. So it's really aligned to a

18:44

goal that we've got. And yes,

18:47

because it's an opportunity to build new

18:49

relationships. And I was like, it's sort

18:51

of that tipping point. And

18:53

that gets me kind of over the line

18:56

of saying yes. And you don't have to

18:58

do it all the time. But if you

19:00

never say yes, you do miss out. So

19:04

that works for me. I like

19:06

them. I like them. And I can hear them,

19:08

you know, like, just knowing you, I feel like

19:10

that's they're very realistic. Yes, it's back to the,

19:12

I just say yes with energy. I feel like

19:14

actually there's the, the thought through the thoughtful and

19:16

the considered nature of that is, it's very, sort

19:18

of adding you into the yes, which I like.

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20:56

let's move on to the no's. For

20:58

anybody who already finds the S is very easy

21:01

and might need to say no a little bit

21:03

more. We have covered this as a topic actually

21:05

on a podcast, but it was a while back.

21:07

It was back in episode 106 and we're,

21:10

you know, well into episode 400 now. So,

21:12

we've got some new ideas about how to

21:14

say no. But if you're really struggling, maybe

21:16

listen back to that one too. So,

21:19

three ideas. Idea number one is

21:21

a fast filter. So, this gives

21:23

you a few questions to ask

21:25

yourself so that you can be, I

21:28

guess, clear and confident about what you might

21:30

need to say no to. So, the first

21:32

bit is assessing the situation that you're in.

21:35

So, one, do I understand the ask? So,

21:37

what is it? When does it need to

21:39

be done by? Why does it need to

21:41

be done? Number two, do

21:43

I believe we should do this? So, not just

21:45

someone's wanting me to do it, but do I

21:47

personally believe this is the right thing to do?

21:50

And that links to question number three. Do

21:52

I believe I am the right person to

21:54

do it? Is the right thing,

21:56

am I the right person? And then number four, which is the

21:59

one that I never really... again

24:01

and it's just having that confidence isn't

24:03

it to like to know that

24:05

it is it is okay to say no and

24:07

I suppose I've got more used

24:10

to receiving those from other people which I

24:12

think has helped me to get better at

24:14

them you know particularly like you know thinking

24:16

about the podcast we ask people to come

24:18

on the podcast who say no or sometimes

24:20

I just don't even reply which is you

24:23

know so almost you just get a tiny

24:25

bit more resilient but also I think I

24:27

have noticed and observed how people

24:29

say no in a way that I really

24:31

respect and I think that's useful to remember

24:34

that actually you can say no and still

24:36

be kind and you know

24:38

if someone is a decent person they will respect that

24:40

no everybody gets that people have have

24:43

to make choices in how they spend their time

24:45

and I think we also sometimes I think maybe

24:47

your ego can get in the way a bit

24:50

here because you sometimes think oh but um if

24:52

someone's asked you something that they've only asked you

24:54

and most of the time people

24:56

have not only asked you or you're not even

24:58

you're not the only person so someone's world is

25:00

not going to fall down if you can't do

25:03

that thing and and I think that's also sometimes

25:05

quite useful to remember I think I've had examples

25:07

of that where then I realize like I've said

25:09

no to something and then like they probably asked

25:11

like 15 people and you're like

25:14

oh yeah it's absolutely fine it's absolutely fine to

25:16

say yeah I agree almost it's so guilty that

25:18

you get a bit like oh but if I

25:20

say no then what are they gonna do and

25:22

then probably ask someone else be fine yeah be

25:25

fine absolutely fine all that idea

25:27

of action too is to offer an alternative

25:29

and I think this is what I have

25:31

been doing more of late so I do struggle

25:34

with the flat out no it doesn't quite

25:36

feel like me but then I do you

25:38

know I want to create clarity that I

25:40

can't be involved or do something by a certain

25:42

date or whatever so I find the offering an

25:44

alternative quite a useful thing so for example

25:46

no I can't do that meeting but I

25:48

can send you a voice note with my

25:50

thoughts I've been doing that a lot I get

25:53

a lot of asks for conversations that are

25:55

linked in a lot of people message me

25:57

and some people introduce me to other people

25:59

with the ask And

28:00

again, I've followed this one, Ease at the Moment.

28:02

So I feel like I am working on this,

28:04

is to present your priorities, but with pride. So

28:06

they're not like this, um, I don't know this,

28:08

this thing that has no emotion attached to them.

28:10

So for example, I have had to say no

28:13

to a few things at the moment because Sarah

28:15

and I are working on writing our third book,

28:17

which I don't think we're supposed to be talking

28:19

about yet, but I'm

28:21

going to, but it's coming and we're working on it. And

28:24

so a couple of people have asked me to be involved

28:26

in certain things and I've had to say no because we've

28:28

put so much, protecting so much time to write the book.

28:31

And I'm really proud that we're writing that and I'm

28:33

really excited about what we're creating. And when I say,

28:35

I'm really sorry, I can't make that meeting or get

28:37

involved in that project at the moment because we're writing

28:40

our book and we want to make

28:42

progress on it and working towards this date and something

28:44

that we're really looking forward to, I just get people

28:46

going, Oh, completely get it. I understand. And

28:48

I think it's because I don't just say, no, I'm writing

28:50

a book. I put a bit of emotion into it as

28:52

well. Like I am really proud of what we're creating. And

28:54

that I think is people,

28:57

helps people to understand why I'm saying no.

28:59

Or another one that I've mentioned before is

29:01

I'm part of the, this community called EY's

29:03

Winning Women. And even though the

29:05

community continues after the year that you're sort of

29:07

appointed one of these women in women, you

29:10

still want to get the most out of it during

29:12

the year. And so I've said no to some things

29:14

to say, I'm part of a program. There's these dates

29:16

that are part of it this year that I really

29:18

want to attend. Cause it's kind of part of my

29:21

year's commitments to do that. And suddenly people have more

29:23

understanding for it. And, you know, I'm proud of being

29:25

part of that community. So I think know what your

29:27

priorities are, present them with pride when there's a situation

29:29

where you need to say, no, would be my idea

29:32

for action there. Also, what's useful

29:34

about that, I think probably particularly for

29:36

you is when people know you well,

29:38

they will be used to you as

29:40

a can do, make it

29:43

happen, say it, yes person. So if you

29:45

suddenly just started going, well, no, I can't

29:47

come to that. I'm struggling to make time

29:49

for that in a sort of colder way.

29:52

It doesn't feel like you. And I

29:54

think sometimes the reason people struggle with

29:56

these is, okay, but I've still got to do it

29:58

in like my, in my way. and with my words

30:01

and I think as you're describing those and

30:03

I think as I was describing the yeses

30:05

we've both sort of come up with our

30:07

own formula that actually probably feels very personal.

30:09

It's like well this is how you described

30:12

it, oh I came up with yeses in

30:14

quite a kind of thoughtful and considered and

30:16

reflective way because that's my personality. You've worked

30:18

out well how can you say no but

30:20

with with energy and in

30:23

a way that like reflects your emotions and kind

30:25

of still feels good for you and

30:27

so everybody listening you'll have your own you'll

30:29

have your own way but I think that

30:31

is worth working out you know sort of

30:34

where's your starting point and then what does

30:36

this look like for you so that you

30:38

still achieve the outcome the saying no saying

30:40

don't know saying yes but without kind of

30:42

losing losing yourself because no one that doesn't

30:44

feel good no one likes that sense of

30:47

I'm having to almost like pretend to

30:49

be someone I'm not to be able to do this well. So

30:53

last saying don't know I reckon

30:56

this might be a confidence gremlin for quite

30:58

a lot of people listening because I hear

31:00

people in our workshops share they

31:02

don't like being put on the spot so this

31:05

is not about generally not knowing because of

31:07

course there's always loads of stuff that we

31:09

all don't know this is you know saying

31:11

you don't know very kind of specifically so

31:13

you could be having a one-to-one

31:15

with your manager you might be in a team

31:18

meeting or you might even just be getting a

31:20

message on teams or on slack and your response

31:22

is like you're thinking well I don't know but

31:24

like how how do I say I don't know

31:26

so yeah this this

31:28

is difficult and I think it does

31:30

take confidence and self-belief and as Helen

31:32

described at the start your context will

31:34

make a difference you know if you're

31:36

in a high-trust team I think saying

31:38

I don't know is much much easier

31:40

than if you're in a low-trust team

31:42

where you think well I'm not sure what's

31:44

going to happen if I say I don't know so just

31:47

a kind of slight caveat of depending

31:49

on your environment you probably will want to

31:51

adapt your approach a little bit and be

31:54

sensitive to that situation don't put yourself in

31:56

such a vulnerable position that you're going to

31:58

make yourself you know make yourself feel worse.

32:01

So idea for action one is use

32:03

your don't knows to ask for help

32:06

and I think often the vulnerability

32:08

of saying you don't know is

32:11

an opportunity for support

32:13

sounding boards to get a steer

32:15

from other people, well just say

32:17

I need some help or to

32:19

get a perspective. So this

32:21

might sound a bit like I'm

32:23

not sure who to involve in this project who would you

32:26

recommend I talk to so I can learn more. So you're

32:28

saying I don't know I don't I don't know who to

32:30

involve in this project but you know can you help me

32:32

with who that might be or you

32:35

might say at the moment I'm

32:37

not clear what success looks like for this piece of

32:39

work what have you seen work well

32:41

before? So again we're not trying to the one

32:43

thing I was thinking when I was writing these is I don't want

32:45

to reverse the spotlight so I'm part of

32:48

the spot what I'm gonna do is put you on the

32:50

spot because that feels a bit

32:52

harsh so you are trying to do this in

32:54

a sort of you know encouraging way. Deflect your

32:56

don't knows. Yeah yeah I was like oh okay

32:59

we just need to be a bit careful about

33:01

that. You can just say I don't

33:03

know the answer to that question but I've

33:06

got a few thoughts that I'd appreciate

33:08

your perspective on that's something I would

33:10

definitely say so you

33:12

can still have ideas and you can

33:14

still have thoughts but I think it

33:16

is okay to first acknowledge that

33:18

you don't know the answer to a question I

33:21

would always caution I think sort of ignoring

33:23

the question and sort of just saying

33:25

something different or answering a different question

33:27

because I think a people can see

33:30

through that and I think

33:32

that you can sort of get caught out yourself if

33:34

you try to do that. I feel like might be

33:36

advice that some politicians miss you know when they get

33:39

a question of this or go through it. We'll leave

33:41

politics to one side that's probably not our podcast. And

33:45

if somebody says something where you just think you know

33:47

if it throws you and you just think I don't

33:49

know because I've never had that thought before and this

33:51

has definitely happened to me just saying

33:53

oh I hadn't considered

33:55

that that sounds really helpful how

33:58

could you imagine that working or have you seen that working? we

40:00

sort of just don't know to something. And

40:02

I feel like you never leave a conversation

40:04

without having sort of got to at least

40:07

something because usually by the end of

40:09

that conversation, you've stopped listening to me and you're doing

40:11

the actions. You're like, right, yep, I'm gonna go and

40:13

talk to that person, I'm gonna write this down. And

40:15

you have gone from not

40:17

knowing to knowing in a very short

40:20

space of time, but actually in

40:22

a way that creates a lot of

40:24

clarity, a lot of confidence and some momentum. So we

40:26

were working on some things from scratch last week where

40:28

there was a lot that you and I didn't know.

40:31

And we were like, well, we don't know if this will work.

40:33

And your thing is like going, well, how would we work

40:35

out if it would work? What would we need to do? And

40:38

you start sort of getting into that process.

40:40

So I think this probably feels like a

40:42

slightly different approach to don't knows, but you

40:44

are still saying it and then

40:46

you're involving someone. I'd almost want to think about, and

40:49

I think the reason this works well with us is

40:51

obviously we know each other and work together well. Who

40:54

could sort of be that like don't know partner for

40:56

you? You know, someone who quite

40:58

enjoys that kind of process

41:00

of sort of having a play and just creating

41:02

and doesn't feel daunted by don't know. Like I

41:05

don't think you're daunted by don't know. And I

41:07

think that really helps. I think sometimes

41:09

I would be more daunted than you would be

41:11

in that moment. I'd be like, ah,

41:13

there's so much we don't know. You would just be

41:15

like, but what do we need to

41:17

do? Yes, because you're such a

41:20

doer. You're like, it doesn't matter that we don't

41:22

know. What matters is that we start doing. And

41:24

it's a very kind of learning by doing approach.

41:27

I think generally with this kind of yes, no,

41:29

and don't know, as well as having sort of

41:31

like a don't know partner, I think having a

41:34

yes, no opposite is quite useful, you know, in

41:36

your career community, because, you know, we

41:39

just like stuck together as these two opposites in

41:41

a quite helpful way. But I think if you

41:43

could look for an opposite, somebody who's naturally good

41:45

at the one that you're not, I think you

41:47

can learn an awful lot from each other. I

41:49

learned a lot from how Sarah says no and

41:52

how she says sort of no's

41:54

in meetings. Well, no, I'm not sure we should

41:56

do that. And then I'll be like, oh, interesting.

41:58

She's like brave enough to do that when I

42:00

probably wouldn't. even just stopped, she stopped to think

42:02

that we should say no because she's done that

42:04

assessment in her head and I've just rushed into

42:07

yes. So either observing or actually

42:09

very intentionally sort of partnering in a sort

42:11

of career development relationship with somebody who is

42:14

your opposite I think is a really effective

42:16

way to learn about this as well. So

42:19

all the insights from today's episode are in the

42:21

pod sheet or if you want something even shorter

42:23

check out the pod notes where we tend to

42:26

just have say the top three ideas for action

42:28

or things that we think are most useful to

42:30

share at a glance but we

42:32

hope this has been useful for saying yes,

42:34

no, don't know. Let us know how you

42:36

get on and if you ever have any

42:38

ideas for podcast topics that you'd like us

42:40

to talk about you can email us at

42:42

any time we're Helen and Sarah at squigglycareers.com

42:45

but that's everything for this week thank you so much

42:47

for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.

42:49

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