0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson.

0:08

As some of you know, I've been struggling

0:10

with addiction. However,

0:12

I decided to change my life and went

0:14

into recovery. I started

0:16

this podcast 90 days clean and

0:19

I want to take you along in my journey. What

0:22

does lie ahead of me? Let

0:24

me be frank. I do not know. Will

0:27

I ever drink again? I

0:29

do not know. This is how

0:31

Stairway to Redemption was born. It

0:33

is my search for answer in a real time

0:35

process of what is going to work for

0:37

me. It is then my aspiration

0:40

to help you figure out what is going to work

0:42

for you. It is our

0:44

journey together. Hello,

1:09

hello, and welcome back to another episode

1:11

of Stairway to Redemption. This

1:13

week, I have the honor,

1:15

sorry, to host, with the utmost

1:18

respect, since he's

1:20

my sponsor sponsor, not only that.

1:23

But he leads a weekly big

1:25

book study at a local meeting.

1:28

After sharing his story, we're

1:30

going to talk about spirituality

1:32

and especially spiritual awakening

1:35

and what it means to be spiritually

1:37

fit. Um,

1:39

so guys, I give you Luis. Luis, so

1:41

tell us your story. Um, how did

1:43

you end up to the rooms of AA and

1:45

also how did you end up leading

1:47

a big book study? Um,

1:50

you can take as much time you want, you know,

1:52

like you can, as many

1:54

details you, you,

1:56

uh,

1:56

comfortable with. So, okay.

2:01

Um, well, how, how

2:03

did I get to the rooms? And I, essentially

2:07

I earned my seat. I was a broken human

2:10

being. I was broken

2:12

in every way possible, mind, body, and

2:14

spirit. And,

2:16

um, I entered the rooms,

2:19

um, initially for the first time

2:21

in what would have been June of 96.

2:25

I didn't stay very long. Um,

2:29

but we entered the rooms again in October

2:32

of 1996, same year,

2:35

at which point, um, at that point

2:37

when I came in, um, essentially

2:41

I had, um, had, I

2:44

was broken in spirit to the

2:46

point where I was just willing to do anything,

2:49

um, to get out of, you

2:51

know, the, the situation that my life had

2:54

become, which was, I, I used the term broken,

2:57

but, um, there literally wasn't

2:59

any aspect of my life that just

3:01

wasn't a complete disaster. And,

3:04

um, I would add a disaster of my own

3:06

making. I was very,

3:08

very fortunate when I, when I came

3:10

in the second time around, um,

3:13

is that I quickly met the person who was,

3:16

uh, turned out to be my sponsor and

3:20

he was somebody who was grounded in the big

3:22

book. And, um,

3:25

he didn't waste any time. Uh, we,

3:27

we started working the program immediately,

3:30

maybe within two months of, um,

3:32

me getting into the rooms is when

3:34

I met him maybe four to six weeks

3:37

when I was in the rooms and we got started

3:39

immediately and he took us

3:41

through our program of recovery as outlined

3:44

in the big book of alcohol synonymous, and

3:46

he started. Not even at the title

3:48

page. He started at the blank page, proceeding

3:51

the title page and took me through

3:53

our program, um, literally

3:55

page by page, line by line. Um,

3:59

and with his,

4:01

with his guidance, I

4:03

was, uh, essentially established

4:05

a relationship with Apollo greater than myself,

4:09

which was, um, essentially the beginning,

4:11

right? The beginning of my journey

4:14

in recovery. Um,

4:19

you know, that was almost 28 years ago.

4:22

Wow. So a lot, so,

4:24

so a lot's happened and, um,

4:26

28 years, um,

4:29

many highs, many lows. How did I get

4:32

to where the point where I facilitate

4:35

big book, um, experience meetings,

4:38

well, that's, I grew up on that.

4:40

I literally grew up on that. The,

4:44

the first big book experience meeting that

4:46

I'm aware of that was in, at the time,

4:49

what I would consider Queens, um,

4:52

started in my sponsor's bookstore.

4:54

He owned a recovery bookstore

4:57

and he had several sponsors and

4:59

we used to come in on Wednesdays. It just

5:02

was coincidentally, nobody coordinated

5:04

this. We would meet in his bookstore

5:07

on Wednesday nights. He'd

5:10

sit behind the counter there smoking. And

5:13

there were, um, two or three of us and

5:16

we were always there and we were always just talking, um,

5:19

you know, we're talking about recovery,

5:21

talking about the program. And

5:24

one day we just sort of looked at each other and we said,

5:26

um, geez, you know, why

5:29

don't we make a meeting out of this? And

5:32

so we agreed to like, okay, next week, everybody

5:34

try to bring at least one person. And

5:38

we started, we started a big book experience.

5:41

I'm meeting at the, the,

5:43

we, we, we started a new AA

5:45

group. It was called steps by the book. It

5:48

was on union turnpike off 164th

5:51

street Queens. And,

5:54

um, my sponsor took the first cycle.

5:56

I mean, we were a very small group. It was just

5:58

him taking us to do the book. We had all

6:01

of us, most of us had

6:03

already either were currently working with

6:05

him through the book or had already been

6:07

taken through the book with him. And,

6:11

and, and that was my early recovery.

6:13

Um, I was very, very fortunate in that

6:15

respect because I hear so many,

6:18

so many stories about people who had

6:21

really had been in the rooms maybe for

6:23

quite a long time before they actually heard

6:26

the real program of recovery, they

6:28

may have been exposed to

6:30

the culture, the recovery,

6:33

but not necessarily the program

6:35

of recovery. Um,

6:39

in my case, I was, um, I

6:41

was very fortunate to basically

6:45

meet this person. And,

6:47

um, and so, you know, once

6:50

we, once that group started.

6:53

It wasn't long before I was taking

6:55

my own turns at facilitating.

6:58

And although that group took many

7:00

shapes and forms over the really

7:03

almost three decades, the genesis

7:05

of that group still exists today.

7:09

It's called Circle of Life Group now

7:11

in Hicksville. But like

7:13

a little band of nomads, we did travel

7:16

to other locations. Um, the bookstore

7:18

is not even there now. It's a shame you drive, if

7:20

you drive past it, it's a nail salon. Oh,

7:24

man. But, but, but

7:26

the program still exists. And so. Um,

7:30

and, and, and it's not just facilitating

7:32

because I see facilitating as really

7:34

just an extension of my

7:36

experience of taking other men through

7:38

our program. It was emphasized

7:41

to me in the strongest terms at

7:43

the very, very beginning, how vital

7:45

it was for my own recovery to carry

7:47

this message to other people. And

7:50

I have done my best to do that. And,

7:52

um, I'm a big believer

7:54

in when I find somebody who's willing to go

7:56

through our program, we just get, I, I take,

7:59

I take them through the book just the way I was. We

8:01

start, uh, we get a big

8:03

book, we open up to that blank page

8:06

and that's where we start. And, um,

8:08

I mean, I, I don't have a counter or

8:10

anything, but I've been very blessed

8:12

in recovery. I would say, you

8:15

know, I've worked with maybe two to

8:17

300 men. Over the past,

8:19

you know, not quite 28 years that

8:21

I've been sober.

8:22

Uh huh.

8:23

So, when you think of each of those

8:25

experiences, the book is

8:27

being revealed to me, what people miss

8:30

out, one of the things that I feel people miss

8:32

out on is, you see, when I'm, when you

8:34

take, when I take someone through the book,

8:37

I'm having that experience all over

8:39

again.

8:40

Yeah.

8:41

I'm now again, once again,

8:43

feeling the depth of that first step

8:45

experience. You know, I'm

8:47

realizing, you know, like

8:50

how much more I have to double my spiritual

8:52

efforts if I'm going to continue to grow.

8:55

And um, you know, it,

8:58

it's, and, and then, and then

9:00

essentially the book then begins to,

9:03

at least from my experience too, it,

9:05

it comes alive. You see?

9:08

Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I. I

9:10

still have my original big book as

9:13

a sort of more as

9:15

a memento. Uh

9:16

huh. I,

9:18

I had, um, first time I got separated

9:20

from drugs and alcohol was essentially

9:23

after a 26 year run. And,

9:26

um, I went to a rehab in May

9:28

of 1996. That was the first time

9:30

in my, um, certainly since I could

9:32

remember that I had been separated

9:34

for any period of time. And

9:36

I went away to rehab and the first thing, one of

9:38

the things they handed me was a soft covered

9:41

big book and

9:43

um, and somebody told me, Oh, you should

9:45

read this. This book is important. You know, I didn't

9:47

think, you know, I

9:50

was totally, not only was I ignorant

9:53

about recovery, I was ignorant about

9:55

what the illness is, you know, recovery.

9:58

But, um, so I, you know, of course I picked up the

10:00

big book. Uh, I skipped all the pages

10:03

that, you know, that are in Roman numerals,

10:05

cause obviously they can't be important. They don't even

10:07

have numbers. And I went right,

10:09

you know,

10:11

I wait, I wait, I wait, right. To build story,

10:14

you know, and, um, a page

10:16

one, chapter one, you know, Here we were

10:19

young, new men, you know, from Plattsburgh,

10:21

feeling heroic, blah blah, you know, et cetera.

10:23

And I was like, what the hell is

10:26

this crap? So I don't think I said crap.

10:29

And I shut that book and

10:32

I didn't open that book. That book was in

10:34

pristine condition when I met my sponsor,

10:37

um, later that year. Because,

10:40

um, you know, later that

10:42

same year in October of

10:44

1996, I had what I

10:46

would call a vital spiritual experience

10:49

and, um, or

10:51

a moment of clarity, um,

10:54

that instilled in me the willingness.

10:57

And so when I came back in October of 96,

11:00

Um, I had a willingness that I'd never been

11:03

able to bring about before.

11:05

Anyway, to get to the point of the book, what

11:08

was the point of my story, um,

11:11

you know, when you go through the book the first couple

11:13

of times, maybe you sit through a few, uh,

11:15

Big Book experience meetings. You

11:17

know, the typical thing is you're, you're, you're underlining,

11:20

you're highlighting, you got things written in

11:22

the margin. You've got all of this

11:24

information that you've now, wow, this

11:27

is great revelation and true

11:29

or false, it's just an instruction, that's

11:31

a promise, and that book

11:33

is chewed up, I've got it, I'm

11:35

looking at it now, it's on the bookshelf,

11:38

it's got masking tape keeping it together.

11:40

But they became a point in time when

11:43

I realized when I was working with others, and

11:45

I'm using the book, that it

11:47

became stale to me. And the reason it

11:49

became stale to me is that I was so

11:51

bent on regurgitate,

11:54

regurg, regurgitate, and I'm probably mispronouncing

11:56

that same old,

11:59

the, the same old stuff that I had

12:01

written in my margins and this and

12:03

that and so, and forth, you know? Mm-Hmm.

12:06

so that it becomes still, it was no

12:08

longer. It was no longer

12:10

real. It was just something I was

12:12

spitting out. And, um,

12:15

and it

12:17

occurred to me that I should put that book on

12:19

the shelf and just start with a blank

12:22

book. And now for,

12:25

you see, it's, it's been maybe 20 something years

12:27

now. If you notice it, um,

12:29

when I, when we show up at the meeting that you,

12:31

that we, you and I met, I don't bring

12:33

a book.

12:34

Yeah, that's true. You, you, yeah, you

12:37

use whatever book is there. Like, yeah,

12:39

I noticed that. That's

12:40

right. And it. And I know, you

12:42

know, when you see a person walk in with a big

12:44

book with notes and dog eared,

12:46

dog eared, uh, dog eared pages,

12:49

that's a person who's really working their big

12:51

book, and I respect that, and I'm not trying to,

12:54

you know, negate that, that's, but

12:57

for me, when I'm facilitating,

12:59

when I'm reading with another, uh, fellow

13:01

traveler, right,

13:03

by that book being completely blank, It

13:06

becomes alive because now I'm being guided

13:08

of the spirit of the book and,

13:12

um, you know, over the years,

13:14

listen, when you're in front of a room and

13:16

depending on the format, you know, you

13:18

have a half hour or an hour to basically,

13:22

um, go through the book and share experience

13:25

and insights and so forth. A lot of that is

13:27

just very kinetic to me. A

13:29

lot is, a lot is inspired just

13:31

in that moment, in that breath, a lot

13:33

is inspired by the people

13:36

in the room who add their own insight

13:38

and, and, and interjections

13:41

and experience that then open brand

13:43

new doors that I'd never even traveled

13:45

on. new paths that, um,

13:48

uh, that I've never been on before when it comes

13:50

to our program, to our literature. And

13:52

so the book comes very much alive

13:55

to me, which is a blessing. It can

13:57

also be, um, sometimes

13:59

it's boomerang on me because you, you know,

14:01

if you, if you open your mouth enough, you're

14:03

going to say something stupid. So,

14:07

you know, the side point is that,

14:09

you know, I, you know, I, You know, I,

14:12

I've, I've been known to say things that maybe

14:14

that wasn't the best thing we could have said.

14:16

Oh boy. Uh, yeah,

14:18

we, we got to come back to it later, but finish

14:20

up. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

14:23

No, no, that, that, that's really the point. So

14:25

you, you asked the question, how I got in

14:28

and how do I get to where I'm facilitated?

14:31

That's kind of the journey with my

14:33

experience with the book. Um, I, I'll

14:35

make one last point to me.

14:37

It sounds like a contradiction as

14:39

far as the book is concerned. We

14:42

need to be grounded in the literature of

14:44

our program. Yes. Without

14:46

that, that maintains the integrity of

14:48

the program that also more importantly,

14:51

gives us a fundamental basis

14:53

to. communicate. We

14:56

need a language to communicate because

14:58

essentially, but

15:01

we have to transcend the book. And

15:04

so, so although I'm

15:06

grounded in the literature, I'm

15:09

not held to the word in

15:11

that respect, you see, and,

15:13

um, we need to transcend the

15:16

book. It's the spirit of the book.

15:18

That's vitally important because

15:20

each journey that every person's on

15:23

in our program is really an individual

15:25

journey. I know this says we, but

15:28

in my view, this is all about

15:30

you as an individual entering

15:33

upon a relationship with

15:35

a power grading in yourself and

15:37

then growing in that relationship

15:40

and that itself, it, When

15:43

we think about that, there are really even

15:45

no words that one

15:47

can put to that type

15:49

of relationship to, to define

15:52

it and to explain it.

15:55

And so, um, so that, so

15:58

there has to be that freedom, that

16:00

dynamism. That exists

16:03

so that you, that spirit can, can

16:05

fill your, your heart, your soul,

16:07

whatever metaphor you want

16:10

to use to inspire you as

16:12

you journey along the path. Um,

16:14

if we're held to the word, you know, the

16:17

word, you hear this phrase. The

16:19

book, the book says, yeah, the

16:21

big book camper,

16:22

like they call them.

16:24

Well, you know, I, I, I don't, I,

16:26

I know I'm saying it in a mocking term. It's

16:29

because I'm not trying to mock anyone. What

16:31

I'm really trying to do is highlight

16:33

the point is that we can't

16:36

be held to the word itself

16:39

because that's rigid. That's just that

16:41

then that puts, that puts a step,

16:43

puts a car, that puts a structure.

16:46

Of a hard fixed structure

16:48

around the experience and that's

16:50

like saying I'm going to put a hard fixed structure

16:52

around the power of God and that's

16:55

not possible. So,

16:57

um, so when, when,

16:59

when I'm in front of the room, I

17:03

have no idea what I'm going to say from one

17:05

moment to the next. That's

17:09

hilarious. So,

17:13

um, so that's how, you know,

17:15

that's how I, that's, that's kind of my

17:17

journey with our program. Um, the

17:20

journey, get into that point. It's different,

17:22

of course. Um, it's, um, And

17:26

I don't know if you if you still want to kind of I

17:28

could talk a little bit about that.

17:31

Um, Yeah,

17:34

go ahead

17:36

I was gonna say, you know for me this is Very

17:38

much a spiritual journey and and

17:41

I didn't walk into aa let's face

17:43

it. I did not walk down into the rooms Because

17:45

I was interested in getting on a spiritual journey.

17:47

Let's make that very clear. Yes. That

17:50

was not my intention. Um,

17:52

but what's been revealed to me is

17:54

that I had been on a spiritual journey

17:57

all along. Oh, I see.

17:59

Yes. Uh, and, and

18:01

my, my, my problem as

18:03

Silkworth points out. For

18:06

my spiritual malady of

18:08

restlessness, irritability, discontentedness,

18:11

right? My solution to those

18:13

things was the

18:15

drug, the drink, the set. Um,

18:19

Anything that was outside of me that

18:21

gave me even a nanosecond

18:24

of wholeness to

18:26

fill that void that

18:28

I was living with within my soul.

18:31

Um, you know, I, I took that

18:33

as comfort, you know,

18:35

and of course, obviously over time that boomerang

18:38

made not only almost

18:40

destroyed me as an individual, as a, as

18:42

a person on this planet, but really it

18:44

was also destroying everybody I cared and

18:46

loved. Um, that was anywhere

18:48

within, you know, 50 square miles of

18:50

me. So, um, you

18:53

know, so, so, so to me, how

18:55

I got to where

18:57

I, where I went into the rooms

18:59

in October, I, I used

19:02

the phrase that that person that used to

19:04

exist literally died. Because,

19:06

um, I mentioned in may of 96

19:09

that I, um, that I was separated

19:11

for the first time and,

19:14

you know, listen, you get separated, you put on

19:16

a few pounds, you take a few showers,

19:18

you know, you catch up on a heck of a lot of sleep.

19:21

Right. And, um, and, and

19:23

then what do they do? They, you know, put on some fresh

19:25

clothes, they pat you on the back. And,

19:28

uh, they, they give you a big book that, you know,

19:30

that you totally don't have any understanding of

19:32

what it means. And they tell you, go out and make

19:34

a meeting. And that's what I did, like

19:37

everybody else. And you know what? And

19:40

although physically and mentally,

19:42

I might've been at the bare, the bottom

19:44

of the bottom spiritually,

19:47

I'd not been defeated yet because when I

19:49

came into the rooms initially. I

19:52

was picking and choosing what

19:55

parts of the program I was going to

19:57

see. I wasn't practicing the program.

20:00

I was practicing my program

20:02

and my program was totally

20:04

different because I was. Ignorant

20:07

of the nature of the illness. I thought

20:10

this was something that I just needed to make

20:12

some adjustments in my life to

20:14

get this thing under control. Not

20:16

realizing that, of course, there's no such

20:18

thing as control. That's

20:21

another delusion I lived with. You

20:24

know, I was picking and choosing and, and,

20:26

you know, I, I say how I met my sponsor

20:28

after I came in October. I'm sure

20:31

in the meetings I sat in. That

20:33

there were plenty of people carrying

20:37

a message of death and weight that

20:39

there were plenty of people Talking

20:42

about the solution, but

20:44

I didn't hear them because

20:46

I was too full I

20:49

was not listening, see,

20:53

and I don't find it a coincidence that,

20:55

and so, and so when I went out and I went

20:57

out, um, well, I was,

21:00

I was bouncing in and out, but when I went

21:02

out, out, out, out in late

21:04

August of 96, um,

21:07

I was on a death front. Oh,

21:10

okay. And it, it was

21:12

literally the blackest time of my life.

21:14

And, and I, and I was trying to kill

21:16

myself. In a cowardly

21:18

way. Yeah. In a cowardly

21:20

way, you see. I was just gonna

21:22

drink and drug myself to oblivion,

21:25

you see. And, um,

21:27

and that's not, and every day,

21:29

you know, cause there were days that I would go without

21:31

sleep and eating. And every day I saw the

21:33

sun come up, it was, it was not a blessing

21:35

to see a sun. Right. It was a curse that, Oh

21:38

God, I've got to go through another

21:40

day of this. I've got to do another day

21:42

of this existence. It's not even

21:44

living, you know, um, And,

21:47

and what I tell people is that, yeah,

21:50

I was out to kill myself and guess

21:52

what? I succeeded, I

21:56

succeeded because the person that

21:58

existed died.

22:02

I, nothing, there was nothing different

22:05

about the day my sob, my, my,

22:07

my, my sobriety started or my

22:09

recovery started because I wasn't sober

22:11

yet, so I didn't have the tools.

22:14

There's nothing different about that day. Then

22:17

the countless days that went

22:19

on before I

22:22

didn't wake up that day and say, I'm going to

22:24

choose to stop this time.

22:26

I really want to stop for

22:28

this time. I know what the consequences are.

22:31

Okay. I could do the math. This is illogical.

22:34

No rational human being would behave

22:36

like this. It's time to stop. No,

22:40

that was not how I came to this. It

22:42

wasn't anything I had learned. It

22:44

was nothing that I now knew

22:47

about myself that told me, Hey, maybe

22:49

it's a good idea to stop. I have been wanting

22:51

to stop. I've been literally using

22:53

against my will for two years, frankly,

22:56

up to that point, except for the brief time

22:58

that I went to rehab and

23:01

here's the thing. That day,

23:03

what I, my sober date was no

23:07

different than any other day. Other

23:09

day there was nothing within myself

23:12

about myself that I put

23:14

brought about that made

23:16

the change I I

23:18

truly believe in my heart

23:21

of hearts that that was divine intervention

23:24

And to cut a very long story

23:26

short I had passed out

23:28

of course because we don't really sleep

23:30

we pass out. I had passed

23:33

out And

23:35

in October, back in those days,

23:37

well, I think now they turn the clocks in

23:40

November, but back then they used to turn

23:42

the clocks forward back in November

23:44

and October. So it was

23:46

much, so I woke up, the

23:49

room was pitch black, it was dark

23:51

outside. And

23:55

I said out loud, as I woke up,

23:57

I said, geez, I feel like I just

23:59

woke up from the dead. And

24:03

the instant those words came out

24:05

of my mouth, I had the overwhelming

24:08

presence, intuitive

24:11

insight. I don't, again, don't

24:14

have the specific words to capture

24:18

that. In fact, I had woken

24:21

up from the dead and

24:23

I did, you know, um, you

24:25

know, it's married at the time. I

24:28

put on my, my wife at the time,

24:30

she's deceased now. May she rest in peace.

24:33

Um, You

24:35

know, I used to lie. Of course,

24:38

I lie.

24:39

Yeah. I mean, that's that's

24:41

addicts. 101. You lie. Come on.

24:44

Yeah. Right. So I used to lie. I used to promise.

24:47

I used to swear. I was through. I promise

24:49

this time is different. I really mean it. I

24:51

did. I was resigned. I was resigned.

24:55

To my reality, this is

24:57

what I am, you know, I did

24:59

not come up, you know, but, you know,

25:01

like feeling like, okay, I

25:03

got this thing. I just, I

25:06

just, like I said, it was an insight. And

25:09

the next day, which I consider my sober

25:11

date, um, October

25:13

24th, 1996,

25:15

it was a Thursday, um,

25:19

you know, I went to work and, um,

25:22

I didn't even come home. I went straight to

25:24

a meeting from job to,

25:26

to a meeting, you know, I went from work directly

25:29

to a meeting. And, um,

25:31

and that's where my journey started. That's

25:34

truly where my journey started. So,

25:37

um, you asked me how I got here

25:40

and how I got to the point where I'm in front of

25:42

a room, maybe sharing my experience.

25:45

Um, it's, you know,

25:48

I earned my entry fee by just being

25:51

broken in mind, body, and spirit.

25:53

Oh, man, I have so many questions. Uh,

25:55

thanks for, you know, telling you your story,

25:58

Luis. Um, but, um, I want

26:00

to circle back to what you

26:02

said, uh, when people say,

26:05

I decided to stop drinking.

26:07

I, um, wanted to

26:09

stop drinking. And you often

26:11

make the distinction between

26:13

wanting. and being

26:16

willing to go to any length to get

26:18

sober. Could you expand on that?

26:22

Um, I'm sure. So

26:27

the, the first, the first basics

26:30

foundation to that, um,

26:35

which is what I embrace is the

26:37

idea that lack of power is my

26:39

dilemma. Yes. At

26:42

the root, the

26:44

root is the lack of power

26:46

is my dilemma. And I find that

26:49

to be. If

26:52

that was one side of the coin the

26:55

other side of the coin is there is one

26:57

who has all power um

27:05

the But if we

27:07

focus on lack of power me Being

27:10

my dilemma and we

27:12

look at the real definition of the

27:14

alcoholic or addict as described

27:17

in our literature by

27:19

definition the alcoholic is

27:22

beyond human aid, um,

27:27

and so therefore

27:31

If that means that the

27:33

ability for me to stop based

27:36

on my own willpower

27:38

or my decision or

27:40

my desire, that

27:43

if I'm, am an alcoholic of the

27:45

hopeless variety as described in

27:47

our book, Then

27:50

I've no, I don't have that ability

27:54

to re my reality is, is that

27:57

I had the greatest desire to stop

27:59

that I could muster every

28:01

fiber of my being wanted,

28:05

and I'll put that in quotation marks wanted

28:08

to stop, but

28:11

that desire

28:13

or want to stop was not sufficient

28:16

to bring about the needed change.

28:19

Why? At a fundamental level,

28:22

why? Because I was beyond human

28:24

age. Same

28:26

thing goes with any decision I would make. If

28:29

I made a choice not to drink

28:31

or drug that day, it was, even

28:34

if I was successful in doing that

28:36

for a day or whatever it would be, I

28:39

was still obsessed with the thought of drinking

28:41

a drug and because I was thinking then about

28:43

how not to drink a drug. So

28:46

the thought of the drink or the drug never

28:48

left me and

28:50

it would only be a matter of time where I would

28:52

give into the thought and

28:55

I would drink again because I

28:57

had already lost the power of choice

29:00

as to whether or not I would stop or not

29:02

on my own. Why?

29:05

Back to our fundamental premise. I

29:08

was beyond human aid.

29:11

Lack of power is my

29:13

dilemma. Not lack of

29:15

knowledge, not lack of desire,

29:18

not lack of awareness of the consequences.

29:24

All of those things. Now,

29:26

how do I differentiate that from

29:28

willingness? Yes. There

29:31

is a big difference because

29:33

a willingness to go to any length

29:36

has nothing to do with my desire. Okay.

29:40

Interesting. Right. Right? Because

29:42

it's, it's, it's, it's a desperation,

29:45

right? Our literature talks about, you

29:47

know, the desperation of drowning

29:49

men. Yeah,

29:52

you want to survive. I get it. Nobody

29:56

wants to die. But

29:59

that desire to live is

30:01

not sufficient. But

30:04

a willingness to go to any length,

30:07

that's, to me, there's a, there's a big distinction

30:10

between that and a desire

30:12

to stop. Because if I, if

30:14

I rest my premise

30:17

on the foundation that my

30:20

desire to stop or

30:22

my decision to stop,

30:24

you know, you

30:26

hear this all the time. I got sick and tired

30:28

of being sick and tired. That's a common expression.

30:31

As if, Being sick and tired

30:33

was sufficient for

30:35

me to overcome

30:37

The

30:38

reality is I was sick and tired of

30:40

being sick and tired easily a

30:42

decade plus Before

30:45

I got sober. Yeah, let's

30:47

see Um If

30:49

I, if I rest my premise, I'm

30:51

building it on sand because then I,

30:54

then, then what I am saying that

30:57

in that point,

30:59

my

31:01

recovery came about my,

31:03

from my, from, from, from

31:05

myself, from my own will. And

31:09

now I've taken it back from me being

31:11

beyond human aid to not

31:13

being beyond human aid because I'm human.

31:16

So now, now the alcoholic,

31:19

we can't use that term. Let's use the other

31:21

term. The hard drinker or heavy

31:23

user who

31:26

does stop because they want to stop,

31:29

or they make a choice, or they

31:31

have some crises

31:33

or opportunity in life that presents

31:35

themselves that gives them sufficient

31:38

reason to stop. By definition,

31:40

that person is not an alcoholic. Now,

31:43

they're welcome. It's part

31:45

of AA. Our

31:47

traditions state their only requirement is

31:50

a desire to stop drinking, right? That's AA. Yes.

31:52

So, so they're welcome. There's no requirement

31:55

that says you have to be an alcoholic to be a member

31:57

of aa. Now, that sounds kind of Mm-Hmm, that

31:59

sounds like a contradiction, but that's

32:01

the reality. Yes. Right? Mm-Hmm.

32:04

Um, in fact, and I, you know, when

32:06

I point out to people that your

32:10

desire to stop will get you a seat in

32:12

aa, it won't get you to stop. There's

32:14

a caveat to that. The caveat is

32:16

that presuming, of course, that

32:18

you're an alcoholic of the hopeless variety,

32:21

presuming, of course, that you are one

32:23

of those who is beyond human

32:25

aid. And that

32:27

leads to another point. That's why it's

32:29

critically important for every newcomer

32:32

that enters into the rooms to

32:34

give themselves an opportunity to

32:36

find out their own truth,

32:39

because just because I was beyond

32:41

human aid doesn't mean you're beyond

32:43

human aid. Yeah. And

32:46

you owe it to yourself.

32:47

The

32:49

challenge is, is that like my own

32:51

experience coming in, I thought I knew

32:53

what I needed to know, because I

32:55

knew that I could do this and I'll do that

32:57

and I'll manage. And I'll bet, you know, I'm still in

32:59

the driver's seat. So I think, right.

33:02

And because why, mainly because

33:04

I was ignorant of the nature of the illness.

33:08

You see, I thought I was suffering from a moral

33:11

issue. I thought my, my, the root of

33:13

my problems was that, you know, I

33:15

just wasn't man enough to do the right thing.

33:18

Right. And I had, I had a character

33:20

deficiency that prevented

33:22

me from behaving

33:24

in an upright, moral way.

33:27

You see, the, the, the truth is the, nothing

33:30

could be further than the truth. If, if

33:32

you're one of us, if you're an addict behind,

33:34

you know, Beyond human aid, then

33:36

it's, yeah, I may have moral

33:39

issues and character deficiencies

33:41

galore, right? I have a mountain of them,

33:43

but that is at the root is not why

33:45

I can't stop drinking a drug. And I

33:48

can't stop drinking a drug and because I'm suffering

33:50

from my illness. Yes.

33:52

So, so this is kind of a long walk

33:54

around the block, but getting back to the original

33:56

question. You know, how

33:59

do, how do I make that distinction?

34:03

You know, I think the book makes the distinction

34:06

for us. If we look at the literature, it's,

34:08

it's right there in black and white. The most powerful

34:11

desire to stop drinking is absolutely

34:14

no avail. Self knowledge

34:16

is not a, not a, not a solution.

34:19

We've lost the power of choice.

34:22

For those of us who want to keep it green

34:25

and remember the last run and

34:27

some, you know, crazy idea that

34:29

that will keep you sober because you never want to

34:31

go back there again. And I know, I know I'm saying

34:33

in a mocking tone only to make,

34:36

to illustrate the point, really

34:38

the reality is that we,

34:40

you know, if you read our own literature, if

34:42

you're one of us, that, you

34:44

know, I cannot bring forward with

34:46

sufficient force, the memory of the suffering

34:49

and humiliation. I know

34:51

you see. Right. I

34:53

had, I share one experience. Um,

34:56

go ahead. So I was, um, I

34:59

was in the showers getting ready to go to work.

35:01

And I was one of these people that, you know,

35:04

I, I worked my whole life. And

35:06

although I lost jobs here and there

35:08

because of my addiction. I always

35:11

managed to stay employed. And so

35:13

I was getting ready to work now. It didn't mean

35:15

I got any sleep. So

35:17

I was in the shower and I started convulsing

35:21

in the shower to the point

35:23

where I was now on the bed of the

35:26

shower, literally convulsing.

35:29

And, um, I, I, I, you

35:31

know, I, I did a foxhole prayer. You

35:33

know, we all been there. Oh, dear God, please.

35:36

Anything. Don't let me die in the shower. Yeah.

35:39

I swear I'm through. Right

35:42

that same day because my mo used

35:45

to be that I'd go to work

35:48

around 11 ish. I would page

35:51

flocco And then I would meet

35:53

flocco doing lunch hour at a predetermined

35:55

location And

35:57

then I would cop and

36:00

then I would start using and that's

36:02

what kept me going Because I would normally

36:04

not sleep. And then that would start

36:06

the run for the next 24 hours, because then

36:09

about midday that day, I would be

36:11

getting high. I would get high throughout

36:13

the night. And then next thing you know, the sun

36:15

would be up and I do this all over again.

36:17

Well, here I was not days,

36:20

not weeks later. I mean,

36:22

I literally was shaking uncontrollably in the

36:24

daggone shower. I thought I was going to die

36:26

right then and there. Yeah. That

36:29

same day. That

36:31

same it was it was that days it was

36:33

hours later. Not only did I page

36:35

flocco get in my car Drive

36:38

to the predetermined location Exchanged

36:41

my the the monies for the goods.

36:43

I was on my second or third blast

36:47

Before I realized holy smoke

36:49

was that it's just this morning. I swore

36:51

I never was gonna do this again It had

36:53

not even come to mind. I had completely

36:56

forgotten That just that

36:58

hours ago I

37:01

thought I was going to die in my bathtub. That's

37:04

so easy. So,

37:06

you know, so I could choose all

37:09

I want. I could desire all

37:11

I want. I can, um, you

37:14

know, I could try to keep it green and remember

37:16

the last time we played a tape

37:18

through for me, those things

37:21

were doing, those were doomed to failure.

37:23

Those, those, those, um, re

37:26

well, I will call them relapse prevention

37:28

techniques. We're doing to failure. Um,

37:32

yeah, go ahead.

37:35

Well, what I, what I, you know, when I, when

37:37

I work with people and when I,

37:40

You know, I have the privilege of sharing

37:42

my experience in a big

37:44

book experience meeting and

37:47

we get to these critical chapters and there's

37:49

a solution more about alcoholism, even

37:51

in Bill's story. And of course, um,

37:54

the doctor's opinion, I

37:57

really try to drive these points home

37:59

purposely to shake

38:01

the ground under people's feet, because

38:05

for all of us, just keeping it to myself,

38:08

there's a sense of certainty

38:12

because now I know, you

38:14

see. You know, and

38:16

I will convince myself that,

38:19

you know, somehow I had something to do with my recovery.

38:23

And, and it's easy to be persuaded that

38:25

way, because of course our program of

38:27

action has plenty of instructions in

38:29

it. And then we interpret that, Oh,

38:31

as long as I do these things,

38:33

therefore I will remain

38:35

sober. And there is a lot of

38:37

truth to that. And I I'm splitting hairs.

38:41

But I would say ultimately all

38:44

of those things, quote unquote, these tools,

38:47

all of those things, it's not a

38:49

checklist. It is,

38:51

those are tools that help

38:53

us grow. In

38:56

our relationship with the power

38:58

that solves the problem. Yeah.

39:01

It's the power that solves the problem.

39:03

Those quote unquote things

39:05

on the checklist or tools

39:08

are to me, they're tools

39:10

that we've all agreed on that allows

39:13

us not only to get in touch with the power,

39:15

but to grow in that relationship.

39:18

Yeah, like, uh, oh

39:20

man, you, you, you touch on

39:23

so many topics right there and also

39:25

like the way you expanded it, but to

39:27

resume what you just said, like, you

39:30

know, the way I understood it,

39:32

it's not because we have some agency

39:35

that we have control and understanding

39:38

that we have no control is basically

39:40

how our best way

39:43

of staying sober.

39:46

Yes. Um, one

39:49

pet way that I phrase it, I

39:51

get back to lack of power is my dilemma.

39:53

I think that's one of the great meditations

39:56

in the book. Um, but

39:59

to embrace that, to

40:02

clothe myself. You

40:04

know, in that, you

40:06

see, um, and, and I'm not

40:09

espousing any religion, but there's,

40:11

there's something out of the New Testament,

40:13

St. Paul writes, you

40:16

know, where he talks about, um, my,

40:22

my, my power is sufficient

40:25

for you. Yeah. You see.

40:28

It's, it's, it's, it's to embrace

40:30

my imperfection, to embrace

40:32

my lack of power that,

40:35

you know, I think creates then the

40:38

inverse where now we can

40:40

become open, right,

40:43

to be empowered, you

40:46

know, I, I'm stripped down

40:50

to nothing and then that

40:52

allows me to be empowered.

40:55

So it's a kind

40:56

of leap of

40:57

faith, basically. Right.

41:00

Yeah. Oh, it's very much elite. Uh,

41:03

at least in my view, I think, um, when

41:05

we get into we agnostics and,

41:07

you know, I, I always say that the book, the steps

41:10

are one thing, you know, it's one experience

41:12

and this it's hard for us because

41:15

we're linear, right. We have

41:17

them listed one through 12. It's

41:19

easy to think of them as 12 separate

41:21

things. Like, you know, like a, like a loaf of bread

41:24

that you slice, but it's really one

41:26

experience. And a lot of this

41:28

becomes. It's so interconnected

41:31

and interwoven, um,

41:34

that, but, but it, but in, and

41:36

we, it's, and we, uh, we

41:38

agnostics, first

41:42

of all, we have, so if, if,

41:44

if we could just say for the sake of this discussion,

41:46

cause I don't know how much time we have, that

41:48

lack of power is your dilemma. Let's

41:50

take that as, the

41:53

book is, if you read that chapter, it's very

41:56

interesting because then you turn the page,

41:58

right? And

42:00

then it starts laying out all these beautiful

42:02

promises that as soon as we can lay

42:04

aside prejudice, we will begin to be,

42:07

you know, sense, you know, power

42:09

and direction. Um, you know, as if

42:11

you can be willing to believe, you

42:13

know, you know, you found that

42:15

you have, that's enough to begin the journey.

42:18

Right. Yeah. And that's summed

42:20

up. It kind of repeats itself for a

42:22

couple of paragraphs there.

42:26

And, um, but

42:28

in each of those paragraphs, there's

42:30

a little dig. Yeah.

42:38

I want to be specific. So

42:43

what I mean, this gets, this is getting to

42:45

your point of faith. So

42:49

like, if you look on page 46, like

42:52

it says, yeah, we have a NASA type of men

42:54

have had these thoughts and experience that, you know, as

42:56

soon as you're willing and so forth and so on, no, you're

42:58

going to get results. But then it says what? Even

43:01

though it was impossible for any

43:03

of us any of us to fully define

43:06

Fully define or comprehend that power

43:10

right there. They're telling us We

43:13

can't define this thing. In fact, we can't even

43:15

comprehend it and when did you think about it just

43:17

in a simplistic way? I'm fine.

43:20

I'm a finite human being and

43:22

then you have the infinite. Yes

43:25

How am I as

43:27

a finite being to understand

43:29

comprehend or define

43:32

once you define it? Once you

43:34

think you've defined it because you can't. Yes.

43:38

What you've done is you've put a limit around

43:41

your concept of the power has now become

43:43

limited by your own definition,

43:45

which by definition that use

43:47

the same word twice, you can

43:50

see his notion or prejudice. Then

43:52

what else does it say? Then further on.

43:55

It says, um, the next

43:57

paragraph says, you know, much to our relief, we

43:59

discover we need not consider another's conception

44:01

of God, right? And that's beautiful.

44:04

Our own conception, our own conception,

44:06

wonderful, man. You always want it to be on your

44:08

own. There you go. You have it. Freedom. Your own

44:10

conception. Your, what,

44:12

what's it say next? However

44:15

inadequate, by definition,

44:18

my conception of a power greater than

44:20

myself. There you go. Is inadequate

44:23

by definition. I cannot fully define

44:26

or comprehend that power Later

44:29

on the very next paragraph they give us some

44:31

more encouragement, but how do they end

44:33

it? It's like a little dig It's a little thing right

44:35

there. So we use our own conception.

44:38

However, what limited

44:40

it was? You see

44:42

so so that means If

44:45

all that's true if we take that as true

44:48

Then that means I will never you know, I cannot

44:50

sit down with a slide rule. Excuse me. I'm dating

44:52

myself We don't use slide rules anymore, but

44:55

I can't sit down and do calculus And

44:59

figure out, and then come to a

45:01

logical conclusion in terms

45:03

of how, you know, how you can measure

45:05

a straight line from points A

45:08

to B. Okay. That

45:10

power, right?

45:12

And so there's always going

45:14

to be the,

45:17

I don't know.

45:19

All right. That's a, that's amazing.

45:21

So like, what then is a spiritual

45:23

awakening? Okay. At the following

45:25

of the steps, especially like, how

45:27

do you know that you reach that spiritual

45:30

awakening? If you cannot even put

45:32

the definition

45:33

on the understanding of that power.

45:39

Oh, that's a great question. Um,

45:42

I mean, that's why

45:42

you're here, man.

45:44

Well, I, I know, I know in

45:46

the depth of my heart. I, I, yeah.

45:49

Um. I, I,

45:51

I think the evidence is

45:55

that you, you

45:58

start to live in that as

46:00

described in our literature, the fourth dimension

46:02

of existence. And I don't

46:04

know, maybe somebody who's, if

46:06

someone listens to this, maybe they can let us

46:09

know what they think about it. I've

46:11

always defined that fourth dimension

46:13

as the dimension of time, meaning

46:16

that I can live in the now. Yeah.

46:19

Right. And later on, right. All

46:22

of this is to mingle. You know, may you

46:24

find there's one who has all power. May

46:26

you find him now, right? You can only find

46:28

them in the now. So let's just have to do a

46:30

spiritual awakening. If I live in that

46:32

dimension of time where I can actually

46:34

literally live in the now

46:39

that's I'm awakened, my spirit

46:42

is awakened to the present.

46:45

I'm no longer, I'm

46:47

no longer subjugated to

46:51

the fears and terror I

46:53

have of the future. or

46:56

the regret and resentment of

46:58

the past, thereby

47:00

missing my life

47:02

as it goes forward. You

47:04

see, because in we agnostics

47:07

again, all interconnected, it says

47:09

that we should regard ourselves

47:12

as intelligent agents

47:14

of this power, that creative

47:17

power in the universe is

47:20

on going. And

47:23

the only way for us to

47:25

be in communion with it,

47:27

I'll use the word communion or union,

47:30

is to be in the now,

47:34

you see, because it's only accessible

47:36

to us. Maybe there's another dimension

47:38

for other beings. If there's other beings

47:40

in the universe for us as humans,

47:43

it can only be experienced

47:46

in the now. And therefore

47:48

we have to live in the now if we're to experience

47:51

and to be creative. Agents

47:55

of that power, meaning we're

47:58

the tools of that nature,

48:02

right? But I can't be a tool if

48:04

I'm stuck in the past or fearful

48:06

of the future. And my mind

48:08

and my spirit and my soul are not

48:10

grounded exactly where

48:12

I am in the moment. And

48:15

so that's, that's when I'm, I'm, I'm

48:17

awakened. Because I can be abstinent

48:20

of the drink or the drug and not be in the

48:22

moment. Those are two different things, right?

48:24

Oh, yeah, I totally agree with you

48:26

and, um, not to cut you off,

48:29

like, but like, if you could expand on that,

48:31

how do you, you

48:34

know, because, you know, in our,

48:36

in our fellowship, like

48:38

the, the

48:41

time of sobriety is

48:44

seen as like the only currency

48:46

to judge somebody.

48:48

Spiritual fitness. And like you said,

48:51

it's not because, you know, abstinent

48:53

of the drug or the drink that somebody

48:55

is awakened. How do

48:58

you explain that to somebody who is in

49:00

a room and tell them like, yes, that

49:02

guy might have 36 years of

49:04

sobriety, but it's not necessarily

49:06

spiritually fit. How do you explain

49:09

that to somebody?

49:10

Well, there's a lot, there's some crude ways.

49:12

One is there's a phrase, you

49:15

know, how you live in, you know, how you live

49:17

in. Okay. Yeah. Um, listen,

49:20

I respect time. Yeah.

49:22

Okay. We have, you know, there's a respect

49:24

for time. You're right. In

49:26

my view, time does not equate

49:28

recovery. Um,

49:31

if we, if we read in the preface,

49:33

right, a, a member number

49:35

three, recovered when, um, Our

49:38

own literature says immediately,

49:42

you see, if, if, if this has always

49:45

been about me entering

49:48

a relationship with a power greater

49:50

than myself, and then growing

49:53

in that relationship, not maintaining it,

49:55

but growing in that relationship.

49:59

Who is to say when

50:02

or how long that power

50:04

needs to act in the human heart?

50:08

Nice.

50:09

Nice. There's, there's no boundary

50:12

that we can say, well, God can only make

50:14

you recover in six months. Really?

50:16

I thought he either is or he isn't. I

50:18

thought he was either everything or he was nothing.

50:21

Yeah. If all things are possible,

50:24

then all things are possible. Meaning

50:26

recovery immediately.

50:29

Yeah. So, so it is a function

50:32

of your spiritual fitness, you know,

50:34

I, I, I try to avoid the,

50:36

the discussion about recovered

50:39

versus recovering, but yeah,

50:42

but I, I'll get into it a little bit here.

50:44

Cause I think it illustrates,

50:45

please do, please do.

50:46

Yeah. All right. So we have a threefold

50:48

illness that we learn, right. Uh, mentally,

50:51

physically, spiritually. Yes.

50:53

Now the

50:56

power comes removes the problem. The obsessive

50:58

thought, the main problems in the mind, the obsessive

51:01

thought is removed. I don't think of the drink or

51:03

the drug. Therefore I don't ingest it.

51:05

I don't ingest it. I don't go off to the races.

51:07

I don't suffer physical craving, but

51:10

all this is contingent on a very critical

51:12

hinge, critical leg, my

51:14

spiritual fitness. And

51:17

how do we, how do we measure that? Well,

51:19

we, we really don't measure that. My

51:23

spiritual fitness. is

51:25

a function of now.

51:28

My spiritual fitness is a

51:30

function of this breath because

51:34

you and I having a wonderful conversation

51:36

right now. Now

51:42

in 10 minutes, not that I'm going to go downstairs

51:44

and kick the dog. I'm not going to kick the dog. God,

51:46

God forbid. But you see

51:49

if we're spiritual and we're levitating

51:51

and by the way, we I know I

51:53

certainly don't do this perfectly I don't think anyone

51:56

else does this perfectly. I don't want

51:58

anyone to get the impression that

52:00

somehow, you know, we start Demonstrating

52:03

jedi mind powers or anything. I'm

52:05

not going to be levitating anytime soon.

52:07

I don't think So I let's

52:09

get that clear that my humanity

52:12

Involves all my imperfections as

52:14

as a as part of god's nature

52:16

You By definition, I am

52:18

imperfect. That is, that is,

52:21

that is just, uh, that's, that's, that's how

52:23

it was created. So,

52:26

so to get, to get that straight, but

52:28

my spiritual fitness is a function

52:30

of now, right? So yes,

52:32

we have these special spiritual tools to

52:34

help create some discipline, right? And 11

52:37

step instructions and the 10 step instructions,

52:41

you know, how, how, how we, what did

52:43

it, how we apply some that alcoholics

52:45

need discipline. So we. Discipline

52:47

ourselves. How I established

52:49

in spiritual practices. When we wake

52:51

up during the day to pause,

52:54

how we review our day, right? These

52:56

are the tools, right? But these are

52:58

tools. If I get up and I have a great meditation

53:01

and I have some prayers, I read something

53:03

inspirational, and then I get in the car

53:06

and I'm stuck in traffic and I'm giving the finger

53:08

to everybody. Well, I might've been spiritually

53:10

fit when I first got up, but

53:12

I'm certainly not demonstrating spiritual

53:14

fitness in the, in the moment. So.

53:18

Um, that doesn't mean i'm necessarily going to

53:20

go out and drink that afternoon because

53:22

you know I gave somebody the finger

53:24

in in traffic and I and i'm saying

53:26

that as a euphemism. I I don't do

53:28

that Yeah, uh, i'm just

53:30

making a point. I don't want to think i'm

53:33

one of these aggressive drivers But the point is

53:35

is that you know that does that

53:37

may not necessarily translate to oh

53:40

i'm gonna get drunk But if

53:43

like, like the program tells us, if my

53:45

behavior continues to harm

53:47

others and you know, we think of a harm

53:49

as something that you do physically to somebody

53:51

or, or I'm taking something

53:54

away from somebody, um, but

53:56

you know, or maybe some form

53:58

of abuse, emotional abuse, whatever it

54:00

may be. But to be a harmful

54:03

person, not cosnate of the people

54:05

around you to do

54:07

even a simple thing like littering,

54:10

you know, like, you know, you know,

54:12

there's certain as we get sober,

54:14

the road gets narrower and narrower,

54:17

right? We start out on a broad highway

54:20

and then on page 58, suddenly you're

54:22

on a path. And so

54:24

as you, as you travel, the

54:26

road gets narrower. And so

54:28

our behavior should be changing as

54:30

we go because acceptable

54:32

behavior that might've been, um,

54:35

behavior that may have been acceptable early in

54:37

recovery is no longer acceptable as

54:39

I'm sure. So. So

54:42

I don't want to give the, the, the, you

54:44

know, tell how people could think, Oh,

54:46

geez. Yeah. My, my boss

54:49

peed me off today and I was really

54:51

angry and now I'm going to get drunk. No,

54:53

but what I'm saying is that's why we have all these tools

54:55

to help us get back on track, get

54:57

back to a spiritual foundation

55:00

where we can continue to live our life to

55:02

guide us, right? What does it

55:04

say? Just that we, the steps

55:06

are guides, right? That keep us

55:09

on a path That, you know,

55:12

um, that allow us to, to be part

55:14

of the, the human, the human race.

55:16

So if I understood

55:19

it correctly, and I'm going to try

55:21

to resume what you just said, the

55:23

importance is not to

55:26

not get angry or not to

55:28

do some, it's like basically to

55:30

be self aware of our actions. If

55:33

we check with our own self

55:35

and we are aware that, you

55:37

know, like to use your analogy with

55:39

the road. That the moment we flip

55:41

the road, flip the finger,

55:44

flip the road, sorry, flip the finger to that

55:46

person while we're driving, when in

55:48

the morning we did everything to stay

55:50

spiritually fit, if we're aware of

55:52

that moment and we try to recenter

55:55

ourself, we maintain that spiritual

55:57

fitness, right?

56:00

Right, but you also have to make every

56:02

effort to change your behavior, right? If

56:05

I if I keep on giving people the bird

56:07

as I'm driving down the road or I keep on

56:09

stealing or I'm going to cheat on my spouse,

56:12

you know, if my behavior doesn't change

56:14

then, you know, I could say all the prayers I want

56:16

It's not being demonstrated in my actions.

56:20

Yeah Yeah,

56:23

so, uh, go

56:25

ahead, you, you use the word

56:27

awareness and, uh, I just wanted

56:29

to kind of zero in on that a little

56:31

bit. It is a key word in our temp

56:33

step instructions. Um,

56:36

sometimes people read right past it and

56:38

it's a simple word says, watch,

56:42

you know, watch for these things within

56:44

ourselves. Right. And

56:46

you know that that seems so benign

56:48

what but watching is hard work

56:51

because what that involves is being mindful

56:53

of what we're doing and our attention

56:56

and that takes practice yes

56:59

it does and none of us does this

57:01

perfectly and we all have lapses

57:03

of this and so forth and there's a whole host

57:05

of spiritual tools to men face fences

57:08

make amends and to move forward

57:10

but Um, it's the,

57:13

the, you know, think about, you

57:15

mentioned like, how do you know? And I talked about,

57:18

you know, you asked me, how do I know,

57:20

um, you know, I had the spiritual

57:22

experience and I talked about living in the now,

57:25

you know, I'm not moving from that point, but

57:27

what we have to understand is as human

57:29

beings that we're going to come up short, but

57:32

it, this watching thing, you

57:35

see, the reality is, is that there was

57:37

a time where I lived strictly on

57:39

instinct. I

57:41

was no more, I was really not far

57:44

removed from an animal. Um,

57:47

and, and my behavior was

57:49

from one extreme to the other,

57:52

you know, I was emotionally unstable.

57:54

I was, you know, physically unstable

57:56

in terms of the way I, you know, conducted

57:59

myself, and

58:01

I was not even aware of

58:05

how insane I was. Yeah.

58:07

Now, the blessing is we've been given spiritual

58:10

tools, we've been awakened, essentially,

58:12

we've been awoken from the dead. And,

58:15

and now, as we go through

58:18

our human experience and we fail,

58:20

and we have our failures, if I'm

58:22

watching, at least I'm aware. I'm

58:25

aware that maybe I was discourteous

58:27

to you. I'm aware now, oh,

58:29

you're gonna steal something? You really

58:31

gonna try to take that? So

58:35

there's this awareness that means

58:37

that allows us to get back on track.

58:40

So, um, that's again,

58:43

being in the, now that's

58:45

watching that takes discipline

58:48

that doesn't happen overnight.

58:50

Yeah, I agree with you. So

58:52

like, um, question that, you know,

58:54

might be a little bit, um, hard

58:58

for you. So do you think. The

59:00

12 steps are enough to

59:03

be spiritually fit, or we need

59:05

to add other stuff, like,

59:07

sorry, like we need to find something

59:09

else within ourself because you said

59:12

earlier, the steps are a guide,

59:15

but are they enough to maintain

59:17

our spiritual fitness?

59:20

Um, I would, I think, um,

59:23

as I shoot from the hip here, I think the,

59:26

the answer. Is

59:29

the ultimate answer is no, uh,

59:32

the, what will maintain

59:34

your spiritual fitness, but

59:37

what's key to your recovery is your

59:39

relationship with the power of greater than

59:41

yourself. Um, and,

59:43

and, um, as we read our program,

59:45

even our literature says, uh,

59:48

the very end, I think it's on page 164,

59:51

it talks about. God

59:53

will disclose more to you and to

59:55

us, so your real reliance

59:57

must always be on him. You

1:00:01

see, the steps

1:00:03

are a wonderful spiritual tool.

1:00:06

We need that as our foundation.

1:00:09

Again, without the integrity of the program,

1:00:12

the language, you and I wouldn't even be

1:00:14

able to have to start this conversation. We'd

1:00:18

all be talking in tongues and nobody

1:00:20

would know what anybody the hell is saying, and

1:00:22

it'd all be gibberish and

1:00:24

you wouldn't attract anyone because if you

1:00:26

think of a newcomer walking in and everybody's

1:00:28

speaking a different language and nobody understands

1:00:31

each other, you'd say, what the hell is this?

1:00:33

This is crazy, right? So we have

1:00:35

a, we have this foundation for communicating.

1:00:38

That's critical. The tools

1:00:40

are designed for living and I

1:00:42

apply those tools in my life to the best of my

1:00:44

ability, but ultimately my reliance

1:00:47

is on him, right? On he who

1:00:49

has all power. Um,

1:00:52

and so to me, that transcends

1:00:54

everything. Um, and

1:00:56

that's the, you know, there's

1:00:59

a tongue in cheek thing that I will say,

1:01:01

and I hope I don't want to offend anybody that

1:01:05

is that after

1:01:08

saying all that, then

1:01:10

you throw away the book. No, we, we don't throw

1:01:12

away the book because if you tell a newcomer, throw away

1:01:14

the book, they're really, but you know, there's, I think

1:01:17

there's a, there's a Buddhist, um, you

1:01:19

know, story about

1:01:22

the monks crossing the river, right.

1:01:24

And, you know, they, they, they make a raft.

1:01:27

Right, and they crossed the river. And

1:01:29

now they're going through the jungle and then, but,

1:01:32

but one of the monks is still carrying the raft

1:01:34

and he's complaining, you know, they're going through the

1:01:36

jungle, the forest, and the

1:01:39

ground is, you know, difficult walking,

1:01:41

and they're going uphill, and, you know, the guy's

1:01:43

getting agitated, he's carrying this raft

1:01:45

with him. And, you know, the other month says,

1:01:47

I don't, you know, we crossed the river miles

1:01:49

ago, you

1:01:52

know, we've already passed that river, we're not going to need

1:01:54

it. You know? So, I mean, you know, I'm not

1:01:56

trying to tell anyone to throw away the book, but

1:01:58

I'm trying to say is that, um,

1:02:01

it's a tool that points to the answer.

1:02:04

Let's we, we can be, we

1:02:07

could love our program. You

1:02:09

know, I do, uh,

1:02:11

it has wrought miracles, you

1:02:13

know, not only in my life, but in so many lives

1:02:15

that I've been privileged to walk along

1:02:18

with, but,

1:02:21

but that it's not, but

1:02:23

it's, it's the creative power in the universe

1:02:26

that brings the miracle about. We

1:02:28

have been so blessed to find a

1:02:30

pathway to get in touch

1:02:33

with that power and then to grow. I

1:02:35

would never tell anybody to throw away the book

1:02:37

per se, because it's critical for

1:02:39

me to carry this message. I mentioned this

1:02:41

at the start, how vital it is

1:02:43

to carry the message and how all

1:02:45

of the people that I've had the privilege of working

1:02:48

with have become my true teachers,

1:02:50

because They've helped me grow.

1:02:53

And how would I have that opportunity

1:02:56

to do that, to have that experience? If I

1:02:58

didn't have the book as the foundation

1:03:02

of our communication and to

1:03:04

maintain the integrity of the message

1:03:07

that has helped so many at this point,

1:03:09

I would say millions of people to

1:03:11

a

1:03:11

new way of life. Yeah,

1:03:14

it's beautiful. He said, and I

1:03:16

really appreciate you being sincere because

1:03:18

like what you just might like

1:03:21

upset some people like that. You

1:03:23

know, the steps might not be enough

1:03:25

that like it's actually a higher

1:03:28

power, but like To circle

1:03:30

back to, to

1:03:32

something that you said earlier,

1:03:34

like, you know, how these steps

1:03:37

are the foundation of our recovery,

1:03:40

what, what happened in the

1:03:42

fellowships, why are people,

1:03:45

you know, so geared

1:03:48

toward hanging around

1:03:50

the fellowship and not wanting

1:03:52

to start the step, the true work,

1:03:55

like basically what, you know, based

1:03:57

on what you are saying, you know, People

1:04:00

are there hanging out, you know, we

1:04:02

speaking all different language, but

1:04:04

very few, unfortunately,

1:04:07

want to sit down and learn this new language,

1:04:10

you know, this new foundation, like there is

1:04:13

the proof is most big

1:04:15

books meeting as much smaller

1:04:17

than like a regular meeting. What

1:04:20

do you think is that now?

1:04:23

All right, well, I'm going to sidestep your question.

1:04:25

Okay. So,

1:04:26

Um,

1:04:29

because it's, it's not my place to comment

1:04:32

on the culture of the 12

1:04:34

step fellowships. And I'll, I'll expand

1:04:36

on that point. Okay. Let's

1:04:39

start out when I walked in the rooms,

1:04:42

when I walked in the rooms, I

1:04:45

didn't, I didn't take a survey. Oh, you're

1:04:47

a big book guy. Oh, you're a meeting maker. Oh,

1:04:49

you have the coffee pot. I was,

1:04:52

I was, I was just so

1:04:54

grateful that it was a place

1:04:56

that I was welcomed to. She

1:04:59

All of us together,

1:05:03

all of us are the living

1:05:06

legacy of our fellowship. It's

1:05:08

a human organization. Yeah.

1:05:11

We're not going to conform to

1:05:13

a single, I'll

1:05:15

call it individual vision. Um,

1:05:20

now what, what

1:05:23

motivates human

1:05:25

being one person to the next?

1:05:28

It's not for anyone. I, I, I don't

1:05:31

have that vision. Okay. Um,

1:05:34

there, there are, they, they could be

1:05:37

some things that might be one.

1:05:39

One thing is, is

1:05:42

that at least from my experience, I walked

1:05:44

in, I was ignorant of the nature of my,

1:05:46

of the illness. Now I

1:05:49

mentioned right off the bat that,

1:05:53

uh, for all I know, people

1:05:55

were carrying the message. I didn't hear it. I

1:05:57

didn't hear it. Not because they weren't saying it. I was

1:05:59

hearing it cause I was stuck in who I stuck

1:06:01

in me. Um, But

1:06:04

but but but no doubt I was ignorant

1:06:07

about the nature of illness and

1:06:09

that's why I encourage everyone to find out

1:06:11

their own truth Um,

1:06:14

but but

1:06:16

so so how do I build on that concept?

1:06:19

so the fact that Ignorance

1:06:22

abounds and you know as addicts

1:06:24

and alcoholics. I know I know how

1:06:27

to fit in Let me tell you

1:06:29

you we all can find a spot, right?

1:06:32

You could you can drop ship me

1:06:34

in the middle of you know middle

1:06:36

america somewhere And

1:06:39

I'm going to find a spot and

1:06:41

I'm going to blend in. So

1:06:44

if I dropped somebody,

1:06:47

uh, drops in the middle of a 12

1:06:49

step fellowship, right out of it, Rehab,

1:06:52

whether it be my first rehab or 100th

1:06:54

rehab, probably worse for the

1:06:56

guy with a hundred because now he knows

1:06:58

he thinks he knows. Yeah.

1:07:01

Right. But you come in and what do

1:07:03

we do? You know, everybody

1:07:05

raises their hand. I'm an alcoholic.

1:07:07

I'm an addict. I'm Joe, uh, John Doe.

1:07:10

I'm an alcoholic. You

1:07:12

see the coffee you see the cookies Maybe there's a pretty

1:07:14

girl you can sit next to and i'm

1:07:17

gonna fit right in and if it means

1:07:19

i'm gonna say My name is luis and

1:07:21

i'm an alcoholic. That's what i'm gonna say because i'm

1:07:23

gonna fit in I'm gonna find a way to fit in

1:07:25

now I have no idea what this says to be say

1:07:27

an alcoholic, but everybody else says

1:07:29

an alcoholic So I just repeat what I hear

1:07:31

because that's what the that's what we're saying So

1:07:35

for those of us who've had the experience we

1:07:38

have the responsibility

1:07:40

Responsibility emphasize, okay

1:07:43

To carry what it says in this

1:07:45

message to carry the

1:07:47

message That's my responsibility

1:07:50

And at every opportunity I will carry

1:07:53

this message in a way I hope

1:07:56

that people can connect to that

1:07:58

people would be attracted

1:08:00

to Rather than you must

1:08:03

do this, right? um,

1:08:08

you see Lack of power

1:08:11

is still my dilemma. I

1:08:14

am not in the results business.

1:08:18

My responsibility is

1:08:20

to carry the message. Yeah.

1:08:22

Best is my ability. Best is God

1:08:25

allows me to. Yeah. Um.

1:08:29

The result of that is out of my hands.

1:08:32

Mm hmm.

1:08:33

You see, whether

1:08:35

the message is received, whether someone

1:08:37

gets encouraged or inspired or at

1:08:39

least inquisitive enough to say,

1:08:42

um, Hey, what

1:08:44

do you mean by that? You see, I

1:08:46

talked about meeting my sponsor, you know,

1:08:49

you know, what made me go up to him after the meeting,

1:08:51

after he shared, he had, he

1:08:54

was, he was a speaker, he introduced

1:08:56

himself and he says, um, uh,

1:08:59

he says, I'm Eric. His name was Eric. And.

1:09:02

I'm a recovered alcoholic and

1:09:06

recovered now that maybe

1:09:09

people had said that billion times and I never

1:09:11

heard it, but that's the first time I have anybody said recovered.

1:09:14

So I went to him after the meeting. Hey, when you

1:09:16

say recovered, you know, what do you mean by that?

1:09:18

You mean recovering? You're slowly

1:09:20

recovering. No, so,

1:09:23

so I say, well, how do you, what do you mean by that?

1:09:26

And that's how the conversation started

1:09:28

that led to us doing the work together. So,

1:09:30

he said something that struck me, that inspired

1:09:33

me to, now I don't remember anything that he shared

1:09:35

about his story, whether I identified with

1:09:37

it or anything like that, but once he said recovered,

1:09:39

just when he introduced himself, I, in

1:09:41

my, in my soul, I heard something

1:09:44

different than I, I, at least, I

1:09:46

thought I'd never heard before. At least I was

1:09:48

the cosmetic hearing it before.

1:09:51

So, you know, our responsibility

1:09:53

is to carry the message. We're

1:09:55

not in the results business. I will

1:09:58

continue to carry the message as long as God

1:10:00

gives me breath in my lungs to do so.

1:10:02

Um, And, um, and then

1:10:04

how everybody journeys, because we all

1:10:07

have to journey, our own journeys are

1:10:09

unique and, and

1:10:11

they're sacred at that

1:10:13

person that may be, who may be not ready

1:10:16

to hear the message right then and there, you

1:10:19

know, there may be another time when he hears the

1:10:21

message, you see, we don't

1:10:23

know. And so the, the

1:10:25

culture of AA or

1:10:27

the 12 step fellowship. I

1:10:29

think it's not my, it's not my say

1:10:31

to be concerned vis a vis, you

1:10:34

know, all these, you know, um, these

1:10:36

people, they, you know, they, they'd rather go to the beginners,

1:10:39

meaning they're at, you know, they want to talk about

1:10:41

their day or their promise or their goldfish

1:10:43

died. And I'm making fun. I mean,

1:10:45

tongue in cheek. That's not for me to say,

1:10:48

because I know when I walked in, you

1:10:50

know, you could have been talking about your goldfish dying

1:10:52

and I would have been, I, you know, I

1:10:54

was just grateful that I was somewhere.

1:10:57

Yeah. I

1:10:59

totally understand that. And, um,

1:11:02

that's, that's, that's very

1:11:04

interesting because when you talk about,

1:11:07

you know, going to our sponsor, Um,

1:11:09

I'm going to be, um, you know, tell

1:11:12

you basically how I see

1:11:14

you, how you, you know, I'm

1:11:16

you being perceived by me. I

1:11:19

believe in people's aura and energy.

1:11:22

And I. When you walk

1:11:24

in the room and you talk about this program,

1:11:26

you have a, when they say it's a program

1:11:29

of attraction or promotion, you definitely

1:11:31

have an attractive aura, like

1:11:34

I never seen you like sponsor hunting,

1:11:37

like, you know, like people gravitate

1:11:40

normally toward you because,

1:11:43

you know, I believe that they

1:11:45

can feel that you spiritually

1:11:47

fit, right? That you like, You're

1:11:50

leaving your program that you are free.

1:11:53

And my question

1:11:56

now is for

1:11:58

somebody who completed the steps, who

1:12:00

had that spiritual awakening, what

1:12:02

are the next steps in order

1:12:04

to sponsor somebody?

1:12:07

Because my concern

1:12:09

is I

1:12:12

would like to sponsor, you know, eventually

1:12:14

sponsor, but I don't want to

1:12:16

hurt. I don't, sorry for

1:12:19

the lack of better word, but I don't want

1:12:21

to, you know, Be self seeking

1:12:23

in wanting to help

1:12:25

somebody else at all costs, you

1:12:27

know, because now the step after

1:12:30

is to spread the message. But, um,

1:12:34

yeah, how do you, how do you,

1:12:36

uh, get the right attitude

1:12:38

when you want to sponsor somebody?

1:12:41

All right. I have

1:12:43

a, I have, um, an

1:12:45

answer for you. It comes from our program. Uh

1:12:48

huh. Um, I

1:12:51

know you use the word hunting. Yeah,

1:12:54

um, you

1:12:57

know, first

1:13:01

of all, I don't, I never use the term,

1:13:03

I'm going to get to the point. I never use the term

1:13:05

sponsor. I, I always use the term

1:13:08

working with others. Okay. And,

1:13:11

and what I emphasize to people that

1:13:13

I've worked with is that we

1:13:15

are working together. See,

1:13:18

you and I right now and anybody listening,

1:13:20

Uh huh. We're

1:13:23

equally powerless in this moment.

1:13:26

Yes. You

1:13:28

see. Okay. So I don't,

1:13:30

you know, this is not Amway. Okay.

1:13:33

I don't sell you a box of soap and then

1:13:35

you sell to somebody else, a box of soap. And

1:13:38

then, you know, like everybody's kicking up royalties

1:13:41

to me. No, no, no, no. We are equally

1:13:43

powerless. So

1:13:45

I'm just as powerless today as I was before

1:13:47

I came into these rooms. In

1:13:49

that respect, nothing's changed. And

1:13:53

my program, the program tells

1:13:56

us what? That. Strenuous

1:14:00

work with another alcoholic is vital

1:14:02

to permanent recovery. Vital.

1:14:07

When we read Vision for You and you hear

1:14:09

the story of Bill and Bob, They,

1:14:11

they, when, when Bob, when, when

1:14:14

the, when Bob gets the light bulb and he

1:14:16

has that moment, right? What are him

1:14:18

and Bill Wills, they call the hospital and explain,

1:14:20

and they talk to the nurse and what did they do? They

1:14:22

explain their need.

1:14:25

See, they needed to work with another alcoholic,

1:14:29

not because they were altruistic and they

1:14:31

want to do the mankind,

1:14:34

do good for mankind. Yes. That's a by

1:14:36

product. But at the core

1:14:40

of the experience, I

1:14:42

need it for my recovery, just like I need to

1:14:44

work a four step, just like I need to do, uh,

1:14:47

you know, I need to watch during the

1:14:49

day, just like I have to do a daily inventory

1:14:52

at the end of the day. You know, these are things

1:14:54

that are vital to my recovery and

1:14:56

what, uh, what works when all other measures

1:14:58

fail and all of the measures fail, all

1:15:00

of the measures mean. You know, praying,

1:15:03

going to meetings, do it, you know,

1:15:05

meditating, levitating 10

1:15:07

feet above the ground, all of those other

1:15:09

things, all. You know, working

1:15:12

with others when all other measures

1:15:14

fail, work with another alcoholic.

1:15:16

You see, that is vital. What

1:15:19

does it tell? If I don't, if I fail

1:15:21

to perfect and enlarge my spiritual life

1:15:23

through what? Through self sacrifice

1:15:25

and work for others, I

1:15:28

will not survive the certain trials and

1:15:30

low spots ahead. I'm quoting our literature

1:15:32

for a reason. Because that gives me

1:15:34

what a sense of urgency. I

1:15:36

still have the desperation of a drowning

1:15:38

man See I

1:15:41

need that spot. I need that person

1:15:43

to work with More than he

1:15:45

needs me so

1:15:48

Hunting. I know you use that term and it's

1:15:50

got a negative negative connotation But

1:15:53

you have to understand if you've just completed

1:15:55

your steps If you're going to grow

1:15:57

and continue in this experience, you

1:16:00

need to work with another alcoholic. There's just

1:16:02

no other way around it and so You

1:16:04

need you. You see, you know, you

1:16:06

see this all the time. Here's a commentary.

1:16:09

Yes, go ahead.

1:16:11

John Doe just got out of rehab, shows up

1:16:13

at the meeting. Everybody claps. Hooray. He gets

1:16:15

the hug. He gets the white chip. Oh, everybody

1:16:17

loves him. We start passing the meeting

1:16:19

list around and everybody signs their

1:16:21

name and gives them their phone number. And now the

1:16:23

meetings over. He's got a freaking thing, a book,

1:16:26

a meeting list and a hundred phone numbers

1:16:28

that what he will never call.

1:16:31

Yeah. See what

1:16:33

you do. What I was taught, what

1:16:35

was done with me is you go

1:16:37

up to John Doe first day,

1:16:39

introduce yourself and ask him

1:16:41

if you can have his phone number. Mm-Hmm.

1:16:44

And you call him and

1:16:48

share your experience, strength, and hope. And

1:16:51

then offer him a solution if he cares

1:16:54

to have it. And why not?

1:16:56

Because you're hunting brother. Mm-Hmm. Because

1:16:59

you need that guy more

1:17:02

than he needs you. And even

1:17:04

if you doesn't, even if he doesn't

1:17:06

work with you. Even

1:17:08

if you start the work and he bought, you

1:17:13

have made the effort, you've

1:17:16

been responsible in carrying

1:17:19

the message, you're doing

1:17:21

your part, you

1:17:23

see. And so I would encourage

1:17:25

you, you're

1:17:27

not collect, it's not like you're collecting

1:17:30

trophy wives for those of us who

1:17:32

are in my age group will understand what I mean.

1:17:35

Okay. Okay. This

1:17:38

is not a collection of books that

1:17:40

you're going to show, come to my library,

1:17:42

look at my collection of rare books.

1:17:45

No, this is something that you

1:17:47

need to do for your own recovery.

1:17:50

And so. Yeah,

1:17:53

go hunt them down. You don't have to be

1:17:55

browbeating them. You don't have to like,

1:17:57

you know, chain yourself to their, to their,

1:17:59

to, to their car, but

1:18:02

that guy who maybe you hear somebody

1:18:04

share, you know, who's

1:18:07

back, you know, one day back again,

1:18:09

desperate. Who's bewildered

1:18:12

who has if he doesn't understand

1:18:14

he doesn't have a clue why he keeps on

1:18:16

using because he wants to stop after

1:18:18

all He knows he's an

1:18:20

alcoholic after all he chose

1:18:23

not to do it anymore after all and yet

1:18:25

here he is One day back again. Well,

1:18:28

maybe What needs to happen is,

1:18:30

you know, and I'll put you in the story.

1:18:33

Fannie needs to go to that guy after the meeting

1:18:35

and say, listen, let me get your number. I

1:18:37

have, you know, there's a solution to your problem.

1:18:40

You never have to suffer again. I was just

1:18:42

as hopeless and desperate as you.

1:18:44

And there is a way out. Can I call you

1:18:46

tomorrow? What's a good time to call you tomorrow? We

1:18:48

could talk about it.

1:18:52

Oh, man, that's beautifully said, um,

1:18:54

bro, no, man, I'm so happy to

1:18:56

have you as a guest and like, you

1:18:58

know, like we're reaching the end of this interview.

1:19:00

It's almost an hour and a half. So like,

1:19:02

yeah. Uh, so, yeah, I'm

1:19:06

going to give you the last word and,

1:19:08

you know, you can ask me a question or you can,

1:19:11

you know, ideally, I don't know.

1:19:13

Um, what would you say to

1:19:15

like the newcomers in a room? Like end

1:19:17

it like you, you will basically, what

1:19:20

would you like to say last?

1:19:21

Oh, well, first off, thank you for having

1:19:23

me an hour and a half. My goodness. Um,

1:19:27

take a, take a, take a lunch break while

1:19:29

you're listening, I guess. Um, but

1:19:32

I would say to anyone who's coming in

1:19:34

desperate need of a way out, uh,

1:19:36

to, to know that

1:19:38

there is a solution and

1:19:41

that it's, you know,

1:19:43

it's not, we're, we've all

1:19:45

been there. It's

1:19:47

not just the special ones that get

1:19:49

it. Quote unquote. We are

1:19:51

all. Equally powerless

1:19:54

and God's love for us is infinite,

1:19:57

and he loves us infinitely,

1:19:59

which means what? He loves

1:20:02

us all equally, and

1:20:05

there is a solution. You never,

1:20:08

ever have to suffer

1:20:10

again, not just from the drink or

1:20:12

the drug, but from even the thought

1:20:14

of the dick of the drug. That

1:20:17

there's real freedom to be found here

1:20:20

in our fellowship and our program.

1:20:23

Um, and you never have

1:20:25

to suffer again. All

1:20:27

right. Thank

1:20:28

you very much, Luis. Um,

1:20:31

this was amazing and I

1:20:33

will see you guys for the conclusion. Bye.

1:20:37

There you have it, folks. What a fantastic

1:20:40

episode. Um, I just feel

1:20:42

like I had a conversation

1:20:44

with Yoda right now.

1:20:47

Uh, speaking of Jedi, uh,

1:20:49

force and mind tricks. Uh,

1:20:52

yeah, like, thank you. Thank you very much

1:20:54

to Luis for being a wonderful

1:20:57

guest in this episode. Uh,

1:20:59

an hour, 20 minutes about,

1:21:02

you know, and like he said, like, how

1:21:04

we recommend that you take a lunch break.

1:21:06

There's so, so much

1:21:08

to impact, to unpack from that

1:21:10

interview and, uh, what a great

1:21:13

way to get back on, uh, you

1:21:15

know, uh, on tracks with Stairway

1:21:18

to Redemption and give you like a episode

1:21:20

that's twice as long. Um,

1:21:23

yeah, guys, uh, as always,

1:21:25

uh, supporters on social media

1:21:27

and, um, uh,

1:21:30

Patreon, and I will see you guys in two

1:21:32

weeks, hopefully. Bye.