0:00

This podcast is supported by American

0:02

Express and resi. You've had a

0:04

long day. But that

0:06

isn't going to stop you. Because

0:08

that place you've been dying to try has an opening

0:11

tonight, and your friend you've been dying

0:13

to see is free tonight. So

0:15

you go. The ambiance is

0:17

perfect. You split an appetizer. You

0:20

even get dessert. Definitely

0:22

worth the wait. When you're with Amex,

0:24

it's not if it's going to happen. But

0:26

when? American Express, don't

0:29

live life without it.

0:37

I'm

0:37

Jay Wortham.

0:38

I'm Wesley Morris. were two culture

0:40

writers at The New York Times.

0:42

You mean super powered individuals

0:44

at The New York Times? This

0:47

is still

0:48

the

0:49

processing.

1:02

We went to see a

1:05

sequel to Black Panther or of

1:07

forever, you know, directed by Ryan

1:09

Coogler, a movie that has been

1:12

highly anticipated.

1:13

Yeah. But

1:14

a big question on my mind,

1:16

did I think on the mind of many people, was

1:18

how the movie is gonna deal

1:20

with the passing of Chadwick Boseman

1:23

who died in August twenty twenty after

1:25

a long battle with Kinser that many people

1:27

did not know about -- Right. Yeah. -- a lot of people were

1:29

grieving Ryan Kugler was like, I am not

1:31

gonna recast Black Panther. So

1:34

it was this big question York?

1:35

I was less

1:38

fascinated by that question. because

1:40

I I mean, I'm York Chadwick.

1:42

Boseman. Right? But

1:44

I just assumed that

1:46

what was going to happen was

1:48

this

1:48

world is big enough -- Yeah.

1:50

-- to find a plot that

1:53

both accommodates the

1:55

death of Tichalla,

1:57

Black Panther, played by

1:59

Chadwick Boseman,

1:59

and he was

2:02

the king of Wakanda. Right? They have

2:04

to have a

2:05

service worthy of the king.

2:12

And the movie opens

2:14

with that. It gives us this beautiful

2:17

ritual of grief

2:20

and everybody's in white,

2:22

and the music is, you know, it's it's moving.

2:25

I mean, I heard sniffles. And

2:27

this funeral also presents this

2:30

really

2:31

fascinating

2:33

meta moment where you're

2:35

watching Tichala's mother, Queen --

2:37

Mhmm. -- weep, you're watching

2:39

his sister, Sherry York,

2:42

you're watching the head of the York Malage,

2:44

which is Wakanda's security defense

2:46

force, Ocollo,

2:49

Like her face is swollen with grief

2:51

as she carries this car. That's right. You're

2:53

also watching actors who've lost

2:55

their co star. You know, you're

2:57

watching Angela Bassett and Leticia Wright and

2:59

deny Gueb, we

3:03

mhmm, and

3:05

then

3:05

like the movie properly starts

3:07

formally with the unspooling

3:10

of the Marvel logo that we all have seen

3:12

a thousand times. And usually,

3:14

what's in that logo

3:16

is all

3:17

the characters in the Marvel universe, the

3:20

Black Widow, Captain America Ironman,

3:22

But

3:23

instead, the

3:24

Marvel logo is entirely chat

3:27

with Boseman. It was

3:28

very moving. Like, my eyes are

3:30

tearing up right now. and

3:33

for

3:33

a meadow production

3:35

to devote brand

3:39

logo to

3:41

this

3:43

dead black actor, its star.

3:46

It's

3:46

just really moving.

3:49

what

3:49

stands out for me is thinking

3:52

about the timing of Chadwick's passing,

3:55

which is late August of twenty twenty.

3:57

And at that moment

3:59

in

3:59

time, the

4:01

losses were just mounting. Losses

4:02

that we weren't able to properly

4:04

grieve. Yeah.

4:06

I think by

4:07

late summer as Americans,

4:10

we were really coming to terms with

4:12

how impoverished our grieving and

4:14

mourning rituals are. Oh, yeah.

4:16

and Chadwick's loss landed at a

4:18

moment when I think

4:20

people were really understanding that

4:23

there's no way to process

4:25

these losses.

4:27

Right.

4:27

So when I saw the title

4:29

cards, I

4:30

was like,

4:32

Marvel is really

4:34

unafraid

4:36

to allow this movie

4:38

to be a vehicle for

4:40

people to really let out

4:43

their feelings around Chadwick,

4:45

but I think that Chadwick is also

4:47

a stand in for

4:49

all the losses we've suffered

4:52

which we've never really

4:54

collectively talked about.

4:56

I think it speaks to one

4:58

of the many lack that we currently

5:01

have as a people in this

5:03

country. Mhmm. And

5:04

the

5:05

idea that, like, everything else, like, so

5:07

many things in this country public

5:09

grieving has been privatized essentially,

5:12

and

5:12

it's an

5:13

indictment of our relationship

5:16

to to

5:19

grief.

5:20

Well, the movie seems very

5:22

conscious of

5:24

a desire to focus on

5:27

the grieving and the grieving rituals,

5:30

it's

5:30

aligning

5:31

itself with something that in my opinion has

5:33

become a very important black radical

5:35

practice over the last tenth full of years.

5:37

Right? Which is to try to figure out

5:40

how to

5:42

allow space to mourn

5:44

and to sit with those feelings that

5:47

are separate from the act of dying

5:49

and the act of death. And I also

5:51

think this is something a lot of dual workers

5:54

and grief workers breath

5:56

workers and people overall who

5:58

think about the importance of having

6:00

private spaces to mourn that are

6:02

not regulated and manipulated by

6:05

big cultural entities. Mhmm.

6:07

I'm thinking of Dominique Gamifels who's

6:09

killed in Philadelphia. There were birthday

6:11

celebrations for her not too long ago

6:13

that were limited to by park neighborhoods

6:15

and spaces when people

6:17

were grieving over the kidnapping

6:19

and ultimate murder of a nineteen year old activist

6:22

from Florida, named Toyan

6:24

Salao. Yes. There were these private

6:26

morning rituals held in Bedside

6:28

and the Herbert Von King York, just

6:30

visuals, York people

6:32

to let out their sadness about this

6:34

woman, without it being a Twitter

6:36

campaign, without it being a say her name

6:38

campaign. Right. And I listened

6:40

to a conversation between Tomahashi

6:42

Coop's R Powell and Ryan

6:44

Coogler about the making of this movie,

6:46

which will link to the show notes. And

6:48

they talk a lot about how

6:51

there

6:51

were these private ceremonies for

6:53

Chadwick Boseman. Mhmm. People laid

6:55

hands on the coffin.

6:57

And it really

6:59

moved me to hear that because it felt

7:01

really clear that the

7:03

scene in the movie is so emotional because

7:06

it was also lived. Right?

7:08

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so when

7:10

I see the scale at

7:13

which Marvel is opening

7:15

up a window

7:17

for practicing collective healing.

7:19

I'm amazed. Yeah. Right?

7:21

Yeah. But It's

7:23

just so

7:24

wild that

7:27

it winds up being larval that

7:29

offers this framework

7:32

walking us through

7:34

trying to process this grief

7:37

collectively. I

7:38

disposed my mind. the money

7:39

gonna do would it want to? Yeah.

7:42

By

7:42

the way, Wesley, we've

7:45

only gotten into the first

7:47

five minutes of this movie, and

7:49

it's a three hour long movie. Do you remember at one

7:51

point I turned you and said, what day is it?

7:54

How long

7:54

have we been in here? You did say

7:57

that. A lot happens in

7:59

this movie.

7:59

And we already

8:01

talked about the first Black Panther on an episode,

8:03

which we'll link to in the show notes. If you wanna go back

8:05

and hear our thoughts out first black Panther.

8:08

It's all in there too. I mean, the stakes

8:10

in the first

8:10

movie were really about establishing Wakanda

8:13

as an entity on the

8:15

global stage. Mhmm. And

8:17

it has taken its place

8:19

as a steward of goodness

8:21

morality, righteousness, decency,

8:23

humanitarianism, and

8:26

the tension in that film came

8:28

down to very interestingly this

8:32

idea of global humanitarianism

8:35

versus nationalism

8:37

essentially. Mhmm. What

8:39

would it look like if we

8:41

were just like, no. We should be

8:43

protecting ourselves. Right? Talk about

8:45

questions of responsibility. Right. Right.

8:47

Right. Right. Really? And

8:50

this time

8:52

that tension

8:54

exists in a really interesting

8:57

way, I would say, Like people

8:59

call me, but

9:04

my name is call me no more.

9:07

because there is now this new

9:09

character who in the Marvel Universe was called

9:11

Submariner, his name was

9:13

Namur. Here it is

9:15

Namur. and

9:17

he is essentially the T'Challa

9:19

of this place deep down

9:22

underwater called TunnelCon.

9:23

And Nomura is essentially amphibious.

9:26

He can live underwater. He

9:28

can live way up high in the

9:30

air because he's got these wings on his

9:32

ankles.

9:33

And Talo

9:34

Khan is essentially this region

9:36

deep

9:37

underwater that is made up

9:39

of Mayan and Aztec cultural

9:42

ideas

9:42

and civilizationally would be mezzo

9:45

American, which is that stretch of land that we

9:47

essentially call Central America that runs

9:49

from

9:49

southern Mexico down

9:51

to Costa Rica. Mhmm. And

9:53

my favorite passage in the movie is

9:55

this, you know, I don't know how long it lasts,

9:57

but there's an extended sequence where we

9:59

are

9:59

underwater learning about

10:06

And Namor is essentially our

10:08

guide.

10:09

And you get to see all

10:11

this technology. You get to see

10:13

this entire civilization. There's

10:15

a

10:15

whole temple. there's this huge

10:18

stadium. There are these games the kids are

10:20

playing. And in that moment, you know,

10:22

Sherry's a tenant for us too because she's got

10:24

this look of wonder and delight and

10:26

awe. And it

10:26

was my look wonder at the light

10:28

and awe. Like, yes. We

10:31

both wanted more. We both

10:33

wanted more,

10:33

like, an hour of the film.

10:36

could have just been set in

10:37

telecom. And part

10:39

of the story that he tells Sherry --

10:41

Mhmm. -- involves a flashback to fifteen

10:43

seventy one when

10:44

We learned that his

10:47

people were essentially colonized by the

10:49

Spanish. And

10:51

some of these people wind

10:53

up being drawn into the

10:55

water. and a civilization is essentially

10:57

built away from the

10:59

colonizers. And that's what

11:01

telecom is that's how it's

11:03

flourishing. And to

11:04

basically set up that

11:06

we're

11:06

talking about two kingdoms formed

11:09

in reaction against and in

11:11

preemption of

11:13

the colonialist urge. That's

11:15

right. That's right. And I

11:17

find it really interesting that

11:19

a lot of the offline chatter

11:21

of this film has

11:24

revolved around how

11:26

to accurately

11:28

talk about the telecom. Mhmm.

11:30

The culture -- Mhmm. -- the

11:32

lineage, the people, the

11:35

geographic significance, and

11:37

it requires an

11:39

education. Right?

11:41

Yeah. It does. It don't. To be

11:43

respectful,

11:43

it requires an education. And

11:46

so that means understanding the

11:48

difference between Aztec and Maya culture

11:51

to understand what Mezzo

11:53

America means and

11:55

why We went from Mezzo America

11:57

to a

11:57

smattering of a bunch of different countries.

11:59

Mhmm. And it also links

12:02

the

12:02

legacies of Plantation culture.

12:04

Right? It links the after lives of

12:06

these plantations and helps us understand

12:08

that we in the audience have a

12:10

lot more common with Naimor

12:12

and Naimor is vengeance.

12:13

Then the Wakandan. Then the Wakandan. In the

12:16

Wakandan. Yep.

12:16

And

12:17

in telecom, there

12:19

is vibranium. Mhmm. That

12:22

rare, precious, glowing

12:23

metal that used

12:25

to make things like Black Panther's suit and his

12:28

weapons and you know, all of Sherry's

12:30

technology -- Mhmm. --

12:31

vibranium. And,

12:33

you know, someone has invented

12:35

a machine that can find king

12:37

name ores and the telecoms vibranium.

12:40

Mhmm.

12:40

The

12:41

American military now has discovered it's

12:43

there, and they're gonna mine

12:45

down to the bottom of the ocean to get it?

12:47

My mother told stories about the place like

12:49

this, a protected land with people that

12:51

never have to live. The

12:53

more up in this Wakandan lake

12:55

and says to Queen Romand to listen. You

12:57

only define the

12:58

scientist who built this machine so I

13:00

can kill them.

13:01

Mhmm. And Quinor

13:04

Amanda's like, this is not part of my

13:06

mandate. That's right. I don't wanna do

13:08

this, and he's like, listen.

13:10

I'm

13:10

a bring a herd on y'all that you

13:12

can't even imagine. My

13:15

assessor would often say without

13:18

the glass monitor. Wakanda

13:24

would fall? don't know. But I

13:26

think the and the Pelican

13:28

are essentially aligned. The

13:31

tension here is a matter of strategy.

13:33

The

13:33

Wakanda's are about protecting through

13:36

diplomacy,

13:37

negotiation, and

13:40

York will

13:41

go to war to protect

13:43

telecom

13:44

from being discovered by anybody. I

13:46

just feel like the thing

13:48

about these two civilizations is they're

13:51

very much in conversation with

13:53

each other. Right? Not just

13:55

about how to protect themselves from

13:57

from exploitation. But

13:59

also, how to

13:59

survive. Mhmm. These people are

14:02

connected. When Okoye

14:04

finds

14:04

out that talocon

14:05

exists, and that

14:07

there is vibranium in talocon.

14:10

She says something that that really fascinated

14:13

me, which was everything

14:14

that we know about

14:17

who we are as what continents --

14:19

Mhmm. -- this changes everything. Mhmm. This

14:21

changes everything. Definitely,

14:22

the idea that they are special

14:25

and unique and alone in

14:27

this fight

14:27

for -- This paradigm

14:30

is predicament, this situation. Yes.

14:32

that

14:32

there's another civilization that

14:35

is also, like, having

14:37

this plight, but in a different way,

14:39

I don't

14:39

know. It just really touched me. Like, I

14:42

have to relearn how

14:44

we

14:44

think of ourselves in relation

14:47

to these other people and not

14:49

as adversaries

14:50

as allies. Mhmm. I

14:53

mean, conventionally, Namor

14:55

would be the villain. Right? Mhmm. Like,

14:57

he's he what

14:58

he's asking for is an extreme version

15:01

of a reasonable thing. He

15:03

wants

15:03

protection from invasion.

15:05

No.

15:05

He's not the villain, the people

15:08

who are willing to destroy

15:10

civilizations to mind

15:12

minerals They are the

15:14

villain and the movie lets you

15:15

know constantly who they are. They don't have

15:17

names. They just get called colonizer. Don't

15:19

scare me like that colonizer. What?

15:22

My name is Everett. Yes. I

15:25

know. Is that true? The

15:27

joke from the first movie still works in the

15:29

second one. And so SURY

15:32

AND AUCOE -- Mhmm.

15:34

-- to leave Wakanda and

15:36

go to MIT and

15:38

get

15:38

this scientist. And

15:40

I

15:40

will confess something and just

15:43

say that I've been programmed by

15:45

American movies to

15:46

expect only one kind of person to be

15:48

the scientist Mhmm. When they get

15:50

to MIT -- Mhmm. --

15:52

some nerdy white guy --

15:54

Totally. -- but instead we get some stressed

15:56

out black girl. I'm warning

15:58

you,

15:58

do not Take

15:59

another step toward me. Who is played by

16:02

Dominique Thorne, her name is Reary

16:04

Williams. You

16:04

need to be conscious at a way to

16:06

chew look. walking around your ass

16:08

on your head. And there's

16:10

a really moving thing that happens.

16:13

Riri Williams is explaining her

16:15

situation. And

16:16

she says to be young

16:18

gifted in black. Right? And

16:20

then she cracks herself and

16:22

says, oh, wait. You probably don't

16:24

say that in what kind to do you.

16:26

And

16:26

it just was like,

16:29

oh yeah. These

16:31

movies in addition to

16:32

being about colonialism, it's

16:35

also about living in

16:37

a world where racism doesn't exist AKA

16:39

parts of Africa. Right? Where, like, you just

16:41

experience your blackness as being

16:43

your the greatness of

16:45

your blackness. Right?

16:47

What's remarkable about re renoting

16:50

that Wakanda's wouldn't

16:52

resonate with the idea of young gifting in

16:54

black isn't that they wouldn't know who Nina

16:56

Simone is. It's that

16:58

the engine

16:59

of that song, right, which

17:01

is an anthem to lift you up

17:03

and to remember Like, you are

17:05

young, gifted in black. Regardless

17:07

of what the world is telling you hold

17:09

yourself close, you are so precious,

17:11

In Wakanda, they're like, that's a Tuesday. And

17:13

so rearsing is also recognizing

17:16

that in this encounter

17:18

with them. The movie

17:19

is also very invested

17:21

in showing that

17:23

Black Genius looks like Riri

17:25

from the south side of Chicago.

17:27

Mhmm. And This

17:28

is someone who is outpacing her

17:31

professors at MIT, who

17:32

has managed to cobble together an

17:34

Ironman suit replica, who has

17:36

built something that the government wants and is willing to

17:39

pay a lot of

17:40

money for. Writing papers for

17:41

her fellow students. Right?

17:44

And also knowing

17:46

that this character is going to

17:48

emerge at some point in the Marvel Universe,

17:50

part of phase five. She's the next Ironman

17:53

basically. Right? She's Iron Heart. She's

17:55

gonna have her own series next

17:57

year. But seeing this character

17:59

emerge, that

17:59

fully formed And being at the top of

18:02

your class, you can look like someone who's

18:04

in 3LW And it's it's less

18:06

of a reminder, I would say, for

18:08

maybe white people that are watching it, but just kind of an affirmation

18:10

for us. And we actually don't have

18:12

to change ourselves, enter into these spaces, that

18:14

we can still show up as ourselves,

18:16

and that's enough I mean,

18:18

the folks that made this

18:20

movie have

18:20

taken on this responsibility

18:23

to complicate

18:24

this idea of

18:26

representation. whatever we mean by that

18:29

tired, empty concept

18:31

of of representation, and

18:34

I think the movie knows it's responsible for

18:37

representing all the things that Wakanda

18:39

is. And I also think and

18:41

and now it's also taken on this

18:43

responsibility of creating telocon,

18:45

and then bringing that

18:47

world to life in a way that feels

18:50

vibrant and true and

18:52

intriguing. And

18:53

in the same

18:54

way that the funeral passages in

18:56

this movie are remarkable.

18:58

I think this

18:59

sense of

19:01

serious, solemn responsibility

19:03

that is also

19:04

gratifying to see coming from

19:07

a company like Disney. So

19:10

I think we should take a break. And

19:12

when we come back, let's

19:13

talk about what

19:16

Marvel is also responsible for.

19:19

Mhmm. Let's

19:21

do it.

19:32

My name is

19:34

Aporva Mondelez. I am a

19:36

science and global health reporter at

19:38

The New York Times. My job is

19:40

to talk to scientists, to speak

19:42

their language, to go deep with them, and

19:44

then figure out how it is

19:47

relevant to

19:47

everyday reader. I've reported on

19:49

scientific concepts for about twenty years.

19:52

Everything I

19:52

have learned up to this point has

19:54

helped me deliver the stories

19:57

about COVID. I feel just an

19:59

enormous

19:59

responsibility to try to make

20:02

sense of what we're learning about the

20:04

virus, how to protect ourselves.

20:06

I

20:06

like I have been training for this job

20:08

my entire life. Everybody at

20:10

The New York Times is constantly

20:12

thinking about asking the tough questions

20:14

and making sure that our readers have all the

20:17

information they need. But this all relies

20:19

on you,

20:19

our subscribers. We need you on

20:21

board to keep the times as a resource for

20:24

everyone If you're not a subscriber yet, you can become one

20:26

by going to nytimes dot com

20:29

slash subscribe.

20:40

This

20:45

is the

20:46

part

20:47

of this conversation

20:48

where I tell you,

20:49

I didn't like the

20:52

first

20:52

black panther that much.

20:54

I

20:54

mean,

20:58

okay. Let's

20:58

get into it. I just didn't you

21:00

know, it was fine.

21:02

It's

21:02

fine. A lot of work went into it.

21:04

I understood why it was important.

21:06

I love the idea that Ryan Kugler,

21:09

who at that time,

21:11

was making

21:11

his third movie was being

21:14

given a lot of money and a

21:16

lot of

21:16

trust -- Mhmm. -- to basically

21:19

did we try some

21:20

stuff out. You know, how black could

21:22

he make a superhero movie? Mhmm.

21:25

How

21:26

culturally rich could he make a superhero movie

21:29

in a way corresponds to

21:31

reality. Mhmm. You know, he

21:33

seemed to take very seriously Marvel's

21:36

old mantle of what its

21:38

mission was. Mhmm. Sort of guiding

21:40

principle of the company

21:43

was the world outside your

21:45

window. The idea that Disney

21:47

has acquired Marvel

21:48

And they're now

21:49

like, oh, yeah. Well,

21:51

we

21:51

could actually do a world

21:54

outside your window. And with what does that

21:56

look like? Well, it looks like browner

21:58

people. Mhmm. It looks

21:59

like

21:59

more stories that actually from the

22:02

standpoint of just texture.

22:04

And I clothing texture,

22:07

hair

22:07

texture,

22:09

complexions.

22:12

Those things

22:12

are really interesting to me as

22:15

an

22:15

attempt to make a giant

22:17

blockbuster product that has some

22:19

correspondence with

22:22

other

22:23

people who go to the movies.

22:25

But

22:25

I gotta say for as

22:27

much as I loved being

22:31

underwater,

22:31

With the Tala Khanil -- Yeah. --

22:34

learning about these wonderful people

22:35

and seeing this. They're like, they

22:38

welcome Sheri in a way. They give her

22:40

the greeting. open hand greeting, which

22:42

is the equivalent of the

22:43

crossed arms in Wakanda --

22:46

Mhmm.

22:46

-- and I

22:47

don't know about you, but

22:50

this

22:50

whole movie comes down

22:53

to

22:53

this battle between these two civilizations

22:56

basically Wakanda versus the

22:59

Taliban yield, which is essentially like watching

23:01

Africans fight Central Americans, that does

23:03

not feel good. It is the

23:06

worst part of the movie. And and I don't know

23:08

what your group chats are like, but we

23:10

are not alone in feeling this. It

23:13

is deeply uncomfortable to

23:15

Watch

23:16

these groups fight,

23:19

and not only fight,

23:20

but watch the Wakanda lose

23:22

almost every time, like, to

23:25

come into awareness of how vulnerable

23:27

they are and precarious they are. I

23:29

mean, for a movie that's so

23:31

invested in not overplaying

23:34

black death. It definitely does not have

23:36

a problem with showing black

23:37

frailty. And and I just I

23:40

I mean, I almost didn't wanna watch. And part

23:42

of the reason I haven't been back to see it

23:44

again is because I don't wanna sit through that

23:46

again. Mhmm. The second

23:49

Easter egg of the movie at the

23:51

very, very, very end of the credits, and this is not

23:53

a spoiler, okay, just FYI

23:56

people. It just says at the very

23:58

end, Black

23:58

Panther will return. Right? In case

23:59

you were worried there wasn't gonna be more

24:02

movies, Disney's like, we got you. We

24:04

got y'all. You know? there

24:06

are more movies coming.

24:08

And it raises this complicated

24:10

question. I mean, how do we feel

24:12

about that? I mean, the colonizing

24:15

totality is so potent. Mhmm. The

24:17

colonizer mindset is so

24:19

encompassing. Mhmm. So where does that leave

24:21

us in terms of thinking about the

24:24

entities

24:24

of these I'm

24:26

a just calm content creators.

24:29

I mean, what

24:31

you're really saying

24:33

is that we

24:35

are dealing with a sort of

24:38

separate colonization. Right?

24:39

Right. Disney is

24:41

a

24:42

colonizing force. Right? Truly.

24:45

Disney has spent the

24:47

last thirty years essentially being this

24:49

colonizing force. I mean, you're

24:51

you're right. Going back to

24:53

just when they bought Miramax,

24:56

Right? Yeah.

24:56

They bought independent they bought the,

24:58

like, the the fountainhead of

24:59

American independent movie maker.

25:02

Mhmm. They

25:04

bought Marvel. They bought Pixar. They

25:06

are

25:06

now responsible for Star Wars.

25:09

Yes. And the puppets

25:10

the puppets

25:12

I mean,

25:14

and just thinking about

25:16

the role it has played in

25:18

my family's life. the

25:21

role that it continues to play in

25:23

my family's life, you know, when my

25:25

mother -- Mhmm. -- was my nine

25:27

year old niece's age

25:30

Disney was a center of her world.

25:33

and And that

25:35

is more true than it ever was. Wow.

25:38

Because now Disney has way more

25:41

arms to

25:42

wrap around

25:43

you. And I

25:44

guess the question though

25:47

is if we are in an

25:49

inexorable place where

25:51

this company is essentially

25:53

leave the

25:54

center of our entertainment

25:57

universe, of our screen entertainment

25:59

universe.

25:59

Mhmm. oh

26:02

What

26:02

then is it responsible for

26:05

doing? And who is it

26:07

responsible for speaking to

26:09

and representing?

26:11

I mean, we're

26:11

just way

26:13

beyond Captain America's

26:15

Civil War. Right? Those

26:18

movies, which

26:20

no dings

26:20

against them, enjoy them thoroughly,

26:23

but they're so far in the rear view

26:25

mirror at this point. Like, we're

26:27

looking at a

26:28

show like Marvel, which is taking

26:30

on

26:31

introducing

26:32

millions of

26:33

people to Muslim life,

26:36

talking about

26:37

a a

26:37

partition talking about mass

26:40

migration and the impact on Pakistani

26:42

families. I mean, you have something like

26:44

Iron Heart. Right? Mhmm. Revere

26:46

Williams' show coming in twenty twenty

26:48

three taking place in the south side of

26:50

Chicago. No idea what that's gonna hold. These

26:52

narratives are getting a lot more

26:54

culture specific and the stakes

26:56

are getting higher. I I

26:57

think that what's happening

27:00

now is

27:00

some attempt

27:03

to,

27:03

like, win decks the window

27:05

that

27:05

Marvel wanted to open onto the

27:08

world.

27:08

Right?

27:09

And so I

27:10

think if they know that they

27:13

have a built in audience and

27:15

they know that millions of people millions

27:18

upon millions are gonna go watch these movies no

27:20

matter what they do,

27:21

why not just take some risks, some

27:24

real risks. Because, you

27:26

know, in the old

27:27

days, the

27:27

Wakanda, the

27:29

Talekanil, they

27:30

would have been savages in a Disney

27:32

movie. But

27:34

here, they're the heroes.

27:36

And

27:36

and that is

27:39

this

27:39

company taking responsibility

27:42

not only for

27:43

for what

27:45

it's like to be a moral

27:47

leader in the twenty

27:49

first century, but to

27:51

a tone for its sins in

27:54

the twentieth. The things that

27:56

started this company out

27:58

were based on

27:59

ideas of controversy, ideas

28:03

of Xenophobia

28:04

and

28:06

blatant racism. So there's a

28:09

lot of complexity in the in

28:11

the legacy of this company

28:13

and

28:13

it essentially

28:14

is acquiring these new

28:17

properties because it's not

28:18

Disney

28:19

proper.

28:21

that is making these changes. It's

28:23

Marvel that's responsible for making these

28:25

changes. It's Pixar that's responsible for

28:27

making these changes. It's just

28:30

happening under the Disney umbrella.

28:33

Right? So,

28:33

yeah, go to Disney

28:34

plus and you see this this

28:36

menu of whatever we mean by

28:38

when we call diversity diversity.

28:41

but it's

28:42

Disney buying

28:44

that responsibility. In

28:47

many,

28:47

many ways, I grew with

28:49

you, and it is really encouraging to see Disney

28:51

try to

28:51

culturally atone

28:53

for past sins.

28:55

Yeah. And mistakes. And at

28:58

the

28:58

same time, I mean,

29:00

you

29:00

more than anyone has really helped

29:02

me understand and see

29:04

just how much we lose

29:07

when everything gets

29:09

consumed and everything gets

29:11

sucked up into Disney.

29:14

into

29:14

the Marvel universe. I mean,

29:16

who knows

29:18

what movies and plays

29:20

and TV shows and and creations

29:23

Domini Thorne could have been in. That's right.

29:24

I was gonna say. But instead,

29:26

she's playing Riri Williams, and I can't wait.

29:28

But there's

29:29

still a question

29:31

of

29:31

what she could have been doing.

29:33

All the risk

29:34

is being taken out. Right? And

29:36

it makes a movie like this, like Wakanda

29:38

forever seem risky. when

29:41

really they could do anything, and

29:43

it would still make

29:44

a half a billion dollars in

29:46

three weekends.

29:48

Right? And yet, at

29:49

the same time, to think about where we

29:52

started, which was mourning

29:54

the death of Chadwick Bozeman,

29:56

I

29:59

can't think of any other

30:02

company. that would have

30:04

had audacity

30:08

to

30:08

expend at that

30:10

level that kind

30:12

of of

30:14

lament

30:17

for

30:17

one

30:19

person Who became

30:20

a star because of these movies?

30:23

I wound up meaning so much more to

30:25

so many people than

30:27

he ever would have met playing just

30:29

James Brown or Jackie Robinson

30:32

as Chadwick Lisman did -- Mhmm. -- before

30:34

he was to chala. And

30:36

so in

30:36

that respect,

30:39

I I mean,

30:39

I am glad these

30:41

movies got made.

30:47

That

30:48

is our show. Still,

30:52

processing is produced by Lisa Dudley with

30:54

Christina Josa and Hans Bute toe

30:56

were edited by Sarah Harrison and

30:58

Sasha Weiss.

30:58

The show is mixed by Mary and Lozano

31:01

and recorded by Maddie

31:02

Marcello. Digital Productions

31:05

by Maheemah Chablani.

31:06

Our photo editor this week is

31:09

Amanda

31:09

Bo. And our theme music's icon is

31:11

called We'll restart from the album Otherness.

31:14

And good dude. We will

31:16

be back Next, just

31:18

like Black

31:19

Panther.