0:00

When the head of Norfolk Southern testified

0:02

before congress yesterday, his message

0:04

amounted to, we are sorry, for

0:06

the disaster in East Palastine, Ohio,

0:08

and we'll fix it. Norfolk Southern runs

0:10

a safe railroad. And

0:12

it's my commitment to

0:15

improve that safety and make our

0:18

safety culture the best in

0:20

the industry. That was Alan Shaw, chief executive

0:22

of the train company responsible for the derailment.

0:25

Senators on the environment and public works committee

0:27

weren't having it. Lawmakers from both

0:29

parties attack Shaw for refusing to

0:32

endorse stricter regulations. Transportation

0:34

secretary Pete Buttigieg has been leading

0:37

the Biden administration's push on those

0:39

regulations, and he joins us again now. Welcome

0:41

to all things considered. Hello. Good to

0:43

be with you. When Norfolk Southern says it will

0:45

rebuild its safety culture from the ground up

0:47

and invest more, do you believe that?

0:50

Well, I appreciate the steps that they

0:52

have committed to so

0:54

far, but the biggest thing that I

0:56

have asked them to do is to

0:58

change course in resisting regulation.

1:01

They and the entire freight railroad

1:04

lobby have fought tooth and

1:06

nail year after year on

1:08

stricter standards. And I think

1:10

the opportunity and the obligation before

1:12

us right now speaking not just for

1:15

us as a department, but but for the country, including

1:17

Congress, is to push that

1:19

that standard much higher. When it

1:22

comes to everything from the adoption of

1:24

reinforced tank cars that are

1:26

less likely to spill when there's a derailment or

1:28

a crash. To the way that railroad

1:30

workers are treated. These are all

1:32

things that we know there are things

1:34

that would be effective. And Norfolk

1:37

Southern and the other freight railroads have resisted

1:39

them time and time again. So,

1:41

you know, I'm glad to see more compensation going

1:43

out to the people of East Palestine. They deserve

1:46

to be taken care of in every possible

1:48

way. Those are all welcome developments,

1:50

but what we need is more than that. What we need

1:52

is for them to get on board with

1:54

a higher standard of enforceable

1:57

safety regulations, and we're gonna keep pushing for

1:59

that. You say Norfolk Southern and the entire freight

2:01

rail lobby has resisted this how

2:03

much is this a Norfolk Southern

2:06

problem versus AUS. Freight rail problem?

2:08

That is Norfolk Southern happened to

2:10

have the most high profile public disaster

2:13

one of their trains just derailed yesterday in Alabama.

2:16

But could this just as easily have happened to any

2:18

rail

2:18

company? Well, we're taking a close

2:20

look at Norfolk Southern specifically and

2:23

have launched a supplemental review

2:25

of their safety practices and safety

2:27

culture. But the reality is, all

2:30

of the major railroads, what are called

2:32

the class one freight railroads,

2:35

have these problems and have a

2:37

much higher rate of accidents

2:39

derailments, crashes, injuries, and

2:41

other issues that I think most Americans

2:44

are aware of. And

2:44

you don't have reason to believe that Norfolk Southern is

2:46

significantly worse than the others. Well,

2:49

again, if we find anything additional

2:51

in our stepped up review, that will be -

2:53

that will lead to specific actions with regard

2:55

to Norfolk Southern. But I would say that

2:58

across each of the major class

3:00

one freight railroads, if you look at violations,

3:02

if you look at derailments, you're gonna

3:05

see broadly comparable

3:06

numbers. You said that right now, there's a lot momentum

3:09

for positive change, but as we know, the country

3:11

has a short attention span. And the process

3:13

to implement new rules and regulations is

3:16

long and winding and often influenced by industry,

3:19

how do you make sure that this

3:21

process doesn't get so drawn out

3:23

that by the time something gets implemented,

3:26

the rest of the country is no longer paying attention

3:28

and industry is having the same impact it's had

3:30

in the

3:31

past. Well, that's one of the reasons we've been

3:33

working these kinds of issues before, during

3:36

and after their moment in the public

3:38

spotlight on railroad safety,

3:40

for example. Stepped up

3:42

audits and improved

3:44

regulations on things like a

3:46

a minimum crew size. Those are

3:48

things we were working on when we got

3:50

here as an administration, these added things

3:52

are things we're going to push on and we're going

3:54

keep pushing even if

3:56

the coverage dies down because it's the right

3:58

thing to

3:59

do, the same way that we have done. Is there

4:00

a way to cut through the red tape that I think there can be.

4:02

I mean, look, we are subject to a

4:04

lot of procedural requirements

4:07

that slow down the process of things like

4:10

creating a new regulation. But

4:12

I would add that this is where

4:14

Congress can come in. And and

4:16

we can get swift action from Congress that

4:19

wouldn't force us to go through all of those.

4:21

Steps that that that can take a

4:23

year or more on the regulatory front.

4:26

It's why we've urged Congress to take

4:28

steps like encoding. The

4:30

requirements on on higher

4:33

hazmat standards on the

4:35

safety of these trains and cars. And

4:38

the bipartisan legislation that has emerged.

4:41

And the Senate speaks to a lot of those priorities.

4:43

It's not often you see that kind of bipartisan

4:45

push in today's Washington. That's part of what gives

4:47

me hope that we can, in fact, get swifter

4:50

action this time around. When you look at the action

4:52

in

4:52

congress, on the one hand, see lawmakers from both

4:54

parties saying Norfolk Southern needs to do better.

4:57

On the other hand, you see both parties trying

4:59

to score political points from this situation.

5:01

What do you think the actual likelihood is of

5:03

congress passing the kind of

5:05

bill you're talking about?

5:07

Well, I would call this a put up or shut

5:09

up moment. I'm certainly frustrated

5:12

that some voices mainly in the

5:14

Republican Party in Congress who have been outspoken

5:17

on the derailment generally have

5:20

not appeared willing to support

5:22

the EPA, which is the main agency

5:24

and power to hold Norfolk Southern accountable

5:27

and have been hesitant to support the railroad

5:29

regulations where calling for. On the

5:31

other hand, there are Republicans and

5:34

Democrats joining on this

5:36

legislation in the Senate. And again,

5:38

I think that's not a small

5:40

thing. To me, if that

5:42

continues along with continued push

5:44

from our administration, which you can count

5:46

on and continued public

5:48

pressure. I really think that

5:50

big things are possible right now.

5:53

You've said that you made mistake by not visiting

5:55

the site of the crash earlier. The Guardian,

5:57

a left leaning newspaper, said your

5:59

decision to wait three weeks quote,

6:01

recalls the incompetence of FEMA during

6:03

hurricane

6:04

Katrina. So what do you think you need

6:06

to do now to regain trust going forward?

6:08

Well, let me be very clear. Our department

6:11

responded to this issue in the first

6:13

hours after the derailment. We

6:16

were there from the beginning and unlike

6:18

those other cases that have been cited. Nobody

6:21

has pointed to a deficiency in terms

6:23

of the readiness of this department,

6:25

the presence of our staff, and the functional role

6:28

that we had. However, I

6:30

do think that this was an opportunity to

6:33

break from precedent a little bit, to break

6:35

from the norm where you don't normally

6:37

see transportation secretaries at crash

6:39

sites probably out of deference to the NTSB,

6:42

but we can do both we can respect

6:44

the independence of the NTSB, but

6:46

also break from tradition and

6:49

have more of an on the ground presence because

6:51

it's an opportunity to signal

6:53

to communities impacted by

6:55

these kinds of disasters and

6:57

derailments, how important they are

6:59

and that they matter. But again,

7:02

at every step of the way. Our agency

7:04

has been there doing its job, and our

7:07

biggest job right now is to make and enforce

7:09

good transportation policy that saves

7:11

lives which is exactly what

7:13

we're doing and exactly what we're urging Congress

7:15

to do with us. Transportation secretary

7:18

Pete

7:18

Buttigieg. Thanks for talking with us.

7:21

Thanks for having me.