0:00

Tennessee just sounds perfect. Whether that's

0:02

live music, the crack of a campfire,

0:04

or kids laughing on an adventure. To

0:07

start planning your trip, visit tnvacation.com.

0:10

Tennessee sounds perfect. This

0:13

podcast is brought to you by Kim Crawford

0:15

Wines. Kim Crawford invites you

0:17

to savor amazing with a chilled

0:19

glass of New Zealand's finest, named

0:21

in the wine spectator Top 100

0:23

list four times. Every sip of

0:25

Kim Crawford Sauvignon Blanc is filled

0:27

with tropical fruit flavors like passion

0:29

fruit and citrus to help you

0:32

experience golden hour how you see

0:34

fit. Visit kimcroffordwines.com to learn more

0:36

and find Kim Crawford wine near

0:38

you. Savor amazing. For

0:40

those 21 and over, please

0:42

savor responsibly. Constellation imports Rutherford,

0:44

California. This episode is

0:46

brought to you by PNC Bank, who

0:49

believes some things in life should be

0:51

boring. Like banking. Because boring is safe

0:53

and responsible, level-headed and wise. All things

0:55

you want your bank to be. You

0:57

don't want your bank to be cool

1:00

or sexy. Sexies for 80s hair bands,

1:02

not banks. That's why PNC

1:04

Bank strives to be boring with your

1:06

money so you can be happily fulfilled

1:08

with your life. PNC Bank. Brilliantly boring

1:10

since 1865. Brilliantly

1:13

boring since 1865 is

1:15

a service mark of the PNC

1:17

Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC

1:20

Bank National Association member FDIC.

1:23

This episode is brought to you by

1:25

Pedigree. I can't stop talking about Peaches,

1:27

who is the love of my life

1:29

and locally adopted from my local animal

1:31

shelter, who deserves all the best and

1:33

gets all the best dog treats. That

1:36

she does. And Pedigree

1:38

sent us some Pedigree canine cookouts

1:41

treats. They use a meat

1:43

first recipe with no artificial flavors or fillers

1:45

and are available in two tasty

1:47

flavors, chicken and beef. The

1:49

Pedigree brand supports Pedigree Foundation, an

1:52

independent 501c3 nonprofit that is committed

1:54

to increasing dog adoptions nationwide and

1:56

has helped over 800,000 dogs. since

2:00

2008. Shop Pedigree products at

2:02

your preferred retailer and learn

2:04

more about how Pedigree supports

2:06

dog adoption by visiting pedigree.com/feed

2:08

dash good. If

2:11

your business needs a new application, then

2:13

developers will have to write code. A lot of

2:15

code. A lot of code. If an

2:17

application needs to be modernized, then

2:20

you'll need time, resources, and caffeine.

2:23

If that sounds daunting, then

2:25

you need WatsonX Code Assistant.

2:27

AI designed to multiply developer

2:29

productivity so you can generate

2:31

code quickly. Let's create a

2:33

more modern foundation for business

2:35

with WatsonX Code Assistant. Learn

2:37

more at ibm.com/code assistant. IBM.

2:40

Let's create. Hey,

2:45

this is Annie. And Samantha. I welcome to Stuff I Never

2:47

Told You, production of iHeart Radio. And

2:59

today we're bringing back one that was a really fun, surprising

3:03

one, I think for us in different ways.

3:06

I, when we get into July, I start thinking about a

3:08

lot of nerd stuff. I have

3:10

so many thoughts

3:12

listeners. It's keeping me awake at night. How

3:14

many thoughts I have about nerd stuff right

3:17

now? I, we're gonna have to do a

3:19

huge episode on it. We're working on something

3:21

with Joey. But I've just

3:23

got a million thoughts running around my head.

3:25

But we did this episode a while back

3:28

on the feminism of fanzines, of zines. And

3:31

it was really interesting because you and

3:33

I had different experiences when

3:37

it comes to like our memories around them. And then after

3:39

we did this episode, I remembered that I had, there

3:42

had been more zines in my life than I had recalled

3:45

while we were talking about this. And

3:48

it was just, it was a fascinating one.

3:51

And because I do, as we move closer

3:53

to what

3:56

I call con season for me,

3:58

a very nerdy time I was

4:01

just thinking about that and some

4:04

of the zines that I have had and with

4:07

a lot of the flux going on

4:10

right now in nerddom, how

4:12

what the future is and also

4:15

how it can be this place where

4:19

there is more representation, which is something that

4:21

we talked about in this episode.

4:23

You bought me a witch zine. I did. I

4:26

love it. It's cute. I love it

4:28

too. I love it too.

4:30

And as always listeners, yeah, if you

4:32

have any zine suggestions or memories, please

4:34

let us know. But in the meantime,

4:36

please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,

4:44

this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff. I'll never

4:46

told you your production of I heart radio. And

4:58

I have to give you

5:00

some behind the scenes. I'm kind of laughing right

5:02

now because we have outlines that we work off

5:04

of, right? And I

5:06

admitted it a past episode. My

5:08

S key isn't working on my

5:12

laptop, which is one of the most

5:14

painful keys to not be working. Right.

5:17

And instead of fixing it, I've put everything

5:19

off lately because I've been so busy. I

5:22

have a lot of interesting workarounds. And

5:25

I can tell by this

5:27

outline that I was very frustrated

5:29

already. It's so funny. I'm

5:33

sorry. It just cracked me up. I

5:36

found some ways around it, but it's not

5:39

been the easiest thing to do. I

5:42

will say in one of the outlines, you

5:44

definitely misspelled my name. Because

5:46

you start with an S. What

5:48

am I supposed to do? And

5:51

the other thing is I said my spell check

5:53

isn't working. You

6:00

could like see my descent into anger in

6:03

this outline. And

6:05

another thing about this outline is it was originally a

6:07

Monday mini. I do think it's going

6:09

to be a shorter one, but every time we say that

6:11

it never works out, but we'll see. But I was researching

6:13

it and I think we could come back and revisit it,

6:16

honestly. So we're talking about zines.

6:18

Originally, I was specifically talking about fan zines, so

6:20

we are going to talk about zines at

6:23

large in this one. Do

6:26

you have any experience with zines, Samantha? I

6:29

will say I did not know what zines were until

6:31

I moved to Atlanta. I think that was around 2006,

6:33

2007. And

6:36

I always called it zines,

6:39

which tells you how little I knew about

6:41

it and trying to understand it, because there

6:43

was a whole like ATL

6:46

collective group that gets together and does

6:48

them. And I was like, what is

6:50

this? It's really fascinating. And then it

6:52

got really like trendy.

6:56

Yes. So I was very scared of it.

6:59

Yeah. And we're going to talk about that because

7:01

they are experiencing a boom right now. I did

7:04

not realize we surging. Are you kidding? It's been

7:06

15 years. Well,

7:09

it's been longer than that, but they

7:11

are experiencing a resurgence. I

7:13

don't have much experience with zines. I had

7:15

one nerd one that I just kind of

7:17

found at a thrift store once. And

7:19

I really liked that one. It was like mostly

7:22

Star Wars, but a bunch of other stuff. And I just happened

7:24

to find it was really cool. And then Atlanta

7:28

used to have dope girls. Yes.

7:30

Well, see, I get confused

7:32

with zine and zine too, but I'm going with zines

7:35

because magazine, I feel like that's what it's got to

7:37

be. Right. I think you're right. I just really could

7:39

not grasp it. And

7:41

dope girls are still around. But yeah, but

7:43

yeah, zines, right. Yeah, I don't think they don't

7:46

do the zine anymore, at least the last I

7:48

heard they had retired it. They might have bought

7:50

it back, but they are still around. Right. Yes.

7:53

Yes. But it was very popular. But one

7:55

of the reasons I wanted to talk about

7:57

this was I got this

7:59

inkling. that something was up a

8:02

couple of weeks ago. Because people

8:04

started posting fanfiction that they'd written

8:07

literal decades ago. And

8:10

would say like, hey, I wrote this in 19 whatever. Here

8:13

it is. And I was just kind of

8:15

like, oh, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, I appreciate it. And

8:18

then as you know, Mara Jade, who

8:21

is a Star Wars character from Legends that

8:23

I'm very, very excited to talk about on fictional women

8:25

around the world, she started

8:27

popping up a lot more. And I was like, why

8:30

are people talking about Mara Jade? Not

8:32

that they shouldn't, but it's just kind of like, huh,

8:36

I wonder if there's a reason for this. It

8:39

turns out there is. There

8:41

is a movement that is primarily led by

8:43

women to digitize old

8:45

fanzines, to preserve them, to

8:47

save them. Because

8:50

otherwise, it's just gonna be lost. And

8:52

it's a whole thing. It's really, really interesting.

8:55

I also am currently

8:57

reading one of the best, like I know I've

9:00

said it before, but there's some fanfiction you read and you're like,

9:02

yes, this could be published and be better than half the stuff

9:04

they're putting out. Maybe even more than that. And

9:06

I'm reading one right now that's a result of

9:08

this and it is so good. That's awesome.

9:11

It's like reading a book is so good. Ooh.

9:15

But yeah, since we have been on a

9:17

tech kick lately, I'm always down

9:19

to talk about fanfiction and this is happening right now.

9:21

We thought we would go over it

9:23

fairly briefly because honestly, it

9:26

was a much bigger topic than I thought it

9:28

was gonna be. Yeah. You

9:30

can see the episodes we did on

9:32

fanfiction. You can also see the recent-ish

9:35

mini that we did that

9:37

was called a love letter to fanfiction, but was

9:40

primarily about Archive of Our Own, which

9:42

is one of the biggest fanfiction sites, which

9:44

is we're gonna talk about in this conversation. Right.

9:47

Okay, so let's talk about this. What

9:50

are zines? Not zines, Samantha, not zines. I'm

9:52

having to repeat this myself. Well,

9:54

they encompass a lot of things, but

9:56

here are a couple of key things to involve. One

9:58

is that they're typically self-taught. published or

10:01

published by an independent small publisher. This

10:03

has mainly been a way for marginalized

10:05

folks to exercise their voices more freely

10:08

outside of mainstream media. So as a

10:10

part of that, they're usually not published

10:12

in large numbers and are for smaller

10:15

communities and are frequently very

10:17

niche. And they aren't

10:19

commercial. There's often a lot of contributions

10:22

and connections to the zine world, which

10:24

was what I saw in Atlanta. Yeah,

10:26

so a lot of people, you know, well, if

10:28

you, if I have a zine and you have

10:31

a zine, we'll work together and collaborate and contribute

10:33

to. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah,

10:36

yeah, yeah, yeah. And I

10:38

always feel like I have to caveat

10:40

things. Zines aren't commercial. But

10:42

I do think we have seen

10:45

with the popularity magazines try

10:47

to get in on

10:49

that, as always happens in capitalism. So I

10:51

think there could be an argument made that

10:53

some of them are commercial, but

10:56

like at their heart, at their core, they're not.

10:59

Commercial. Okay, so a

11:01

brief history, depending

11:04

on how you define zines, because

11:07

I even wrestled with this and I don't know too much

11:09

about them, but I was like, doesn't it go back way

11:11

further than this? But most people say they go back to

11:13

the 1930s with science

11:15

fiction zines. So fans trying

11:18

to like collaborate with short stories

11:21

and share their fandom with each

11:23

other. The zine is short for

11:26

fan zine. That was the original

11:28

use. And remember, this was

11:30

before the internet and zines were a

11:32

way for fans to connect with each other. It

11:35

was sort of like, it's always interesting

11:37

these iterations of technology because

11:39

I've heard people who

11:41

were like one generation before me talk about like

11:43

old message boards online. And that was like the

11:45

precursor. And then the precursor to that is zines.

11:48

And so yeah, it was kind of like a

11:50

way to connect. These

11:53

fans would speculate with each other. They would

11:55

share theories about their favorite works. They

11:58

would work together on art. and

12:01

stories, including fan fiction, yes. But

12:04

they were also sometimes called perzines,

12:08

or personal zines, which I

12:10

love. And they were often

12:12

handmade. Right. Again,

12:14

this is what I know of Atlanta, and

12:16

I did not know that it had spanned

12:18

so far back because it was themed so

12:20

niche. And for, again, the ones

12:22

that I saw in the early 2000s

12:26

were more about music

12:28

and art. Yes. So

12:30

it was a little different, and it was very hip

12:32

culture. Yeah. Yeah,

12:34

I'm gonna stop it. So

12:37

yeah, zines saw a surge of growth

12:39

in the 50s and 60s, again,

12:42

kind of like what I'm saying,

12:44

with counterculture movements that were eager

12:46

to support smaller independent publications and

12:49

the underground press, and also saw

12:51

it as a way to connect

12:53

with others with similar ideas, a

12:55

space where people have a voice

12:57

outside of mainstream media. Many

13:00

zines from this time combined art

13:02

and politics and activism and writing

13:04

in experimental and new and eclectic

13:06

ways, which that's carried out. That's

13:08

how I knew it, more so

13:10

than the fan zines. Right.

13:13

I think you also just said zines, but we're leaving it

13:15

in because I think it's hilarious. God damn it. Ha ha

13:17

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

13:19

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Having a day.

13:21

Let's go. Okay. Well, yeah, that's one

13:23

of my, and we're gonna talk about

13:25

this more, but that's one of the things people keep

13:27

saying of why zines are so unique, is that you

13:29

don't know what you're gonna get in them always. They're

13:31

like a really unique, random,

13:34

well, not necessarily random, but just a lot of

13:36

different things that you can't really anticipate until you

13:38

open it up and look at it. Right. Mm-hmm.

13:42

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

13:48

Have you ever heard of the term nuclear family?

13:51

The term was coined by an anthropologist in the

13:53

1920s to describe the

13:55

family structure of a straight married couple,

13:57

and their kids will now over- A

14:00

century later, that definition of family describes

14:02

only 18% of American households. From

14:06

this is actually happening comes the

14:08

82%, modern stories of love

14:10

and family. A six-part series focused

14:12

on those who have challenged some

14:14

of our deepest societal norms by

14:16

reimagining what love and family can

14:18

be. From an asexual educator

14:21

and activist raising a child with two

14:23

other co-parents, to a gay man and

14:25

the clergy who chose the path of

14:27

celibacy and created a unique family unit

14:29

with his straight best friend. Each episode

14:32

offers an intimate first-person perspective from those

14:34

whose family lives have taken different shapes.

14:36

To listen to the 82% series,

14:39

follow This Is Actually Happening on the

14:41

Wondery app or wherever you get your

14:43

podcasts. You can listen to

14:45

This Is Actually Happening ad-free on Wondery

14:48

Plus. Tennessee just sounds

14:50

perfect. Whether that's live music, the crack

14:52

of a campfire, or kids laughing on

14:54

an adventure. To start planning

14:56

your trip, visit tnvacation.com. Tennessee

14:59

sounds perfect. This

15:02

podcast is brought to you by Kim Crawford Wines.

15:05

Life is busy. There are so many things on your

15:07

to-do list with so little time to do them. And

15:10

you're always thinking about others' needs before thinking

15:12

of your own. Trust me,

15:14

we understand. Kim Crawford does too. That's

15:17

why they're inviting you to experience Golden

15:19

Hour, your chance to reclaim your time

15:21

and laugh with your favorite people, play

15:24

your favorite song on repeat, gaze outside

15:26

your window in daydream about your wildest

15:28

dreams, or celebrate your victories. No matter

15:30

the moment, you can savor it all

15:32

with a chilled glass of New Zealand's

15:34

finest. As the number one ranked Sauvignon

15:37

Blanc in the U.S., Kim Crawford has

15:39

classic aromas of lifted citrus, tropical fruit,

15:41

and crushed herbs to help you stay

15:43

in a Golden Hour state of mind. Because

15:46

Golden Hour is more than just time, it's

15:48

whenever you want to savor amazing. Visit

15:51

kimcrawfordwines.com to learn more.

15:53

That's kimcrawfordwines.com to find

15:55

Kim Crawford wine near

15:57

you. Savor amazing!

16:00

For those 21 and over, please

16:02

savor responsibly. Constellation Imports, Rutherford,

16:04

California. This episode is brought to you

16:06

by PNC Bank, who believes some

16:09

things in life should be boring, like

16:11

banking. Because boring is safe and responsible,

16:13

level-headed and wise. All things you want

16:15

your bank to be. You don't want

16:18

your bank to be cool or sexy.

16:20

Sexies for 80s hair bands, not banks.

16:22

That's why PNC Bank strives to be

16:25

boring with your money so you can

16:27

be happily fulfilled with your life. PNC

16:29

Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly

16:33

boring since 1865 is a service mark of

16:36

the PNC Financial Services Group

16:39

Incorporated. PNC Bank National Association,

16:41

member FDIC. Hey,

16:44

it's Paris Hilton. Check out

16:46

my new single, I'm Free,

16:48

featuring Rina Sawayama. I'm free,

16:50

yeah. To do

16:52

what I want to be. The song can

16:54

change your life. And that's what Free by

16:56

Ultra Nite did for me. My first single

16:58

from my new album, Infinite Icon, is a

17:00

reimagined version of the iconic song. Listen

17:03

to I'm Free on iHeartRadio or wherever

17:05

you stream music. And visit

17:07

infiniteicon.com to pre-save my album.

17:10

Sponsored by 1111 Media. And

17:19

to your points, punk music

17:21

zines really took

17:23

off in the 1980s, often

17:25

combining music and politics, and it

17:28

offered something unique because these zines

17:30

really captured the whole aesthetic and

17:33

vibe of a subculture. And

17:36

the 90s is when feminist scenes

17:39

like Riot Girl really

17:41

came onto the scene. And this was a

17:43

reaction to sexism within these

17:46

punk music zines and within the writing

17:48

of punk music. And

17:50

it went on to inspire so many

17:52

other zines written by women and girls

17:55

about feminism, often in

17:57

conjunction with something very specific. which

18:00

all coincided with third wave

18:02

feminism. Here's a quote

18:04

about it from the Sally Bingham

18:06

Collection at Duke University's Rubenstein Library.

18:09

"'Feminist practice emphasizes the sharing "'of

18:11

personal experience as a community-building tool,

18:13

"'and zines proved to be the

18:15

perfect medium "'for reaching out to

18:17

young women across the country "'in

18:19

order to form the revolution girl

18:21

style.'" And

18:24

yeah, 40,000 zines are being published by

18:26

1993 in North

18:28

America, I believe. Right,

18:31

right. Yeah, so you

18:33

might be thinking, but wait, I've heard so

18:35

much about the death of print. And

18:38

in terms of the environment, that might be a good thing.

18:41

But zines are still out there and

18:44

have recently seen some major growth. And

18:46

much of it is in the arena

18:48

of intersectional feminism led by

18:51

more women, queer folks, and people of

18:53

color. However, just

18:56

like with most things, there is still work to

18:58

be done in terms of inclusivity. One

19:00

of the big criticisms of the 90s feminist zines

19:02

was that they were largely done based

19:05

around middle-class white women. And

19:08

that is changing, especially with external pressure

19:11

on the publishing world. But

19:13

major issues that were compounded by things

19:15

like the pandemic still remain. So like

19:17

it was seeing this really great growth

19:19

in terms of inclusivity, and then the

19:21

pandemic happens. And also

19:24

capitalism ruins everything when

19:26

some big magazines are blurring

19:28

the lines between magazine and zine, especially by

19:30

copying the aesthetic of things like riot girls

19:33

try to appear like they are that thing

19:36

when that's sort of the opposite of what zines are

19:38

about. And as

19:40

part of the whole thing behind the popularity

19:42

of zines amongst women and marginalized folks is

19:45

that you can talk about feminism

19:48

or whatever really without an ad about

19:50

plastic surgery or something in your

19:53

publication, which, you know, if you

19:55

want it, I'll for it. But the history of magazines, when

19:58

it comes to selling women. in a very specific

20:00

image of how they should look is not good.

20:03

So there's that. It also gives creators the

20:05

space to write about other things than

20:08

women's issues or race issues, which a lot

20:10

of the writers reported. Like, I'm tired

20:12

of being asked only to write about this. I

20:14

want to write about fun things too. Or like,

20:17

not that those can't be fun, but like, you know. Right.

20:20

And I know a lot of it was like, I

20:22

love music of all kinds. And they only asked me

20:24

to do this specific genre of music. And it's not

20:26

even what I'm interested in. Like, I've saw that. Like,

20:28

they would talk about, things like that again, like dope

20:30

girls, their whole thing was like, let's talk about

20:33

weed. Kind of that

20:35

wasn't their whole thing, but like bringing it in and

20:37

like normalizing what that looks like in

20:40

a culture that is so uptight at

20:42

that point in time. But yeah, it's very

20:44

interesting to see all of that. And again,

20:46

what I witnessed was people

20:49

taking space and creating their own art. And a

20:51

lot of the zines, not zines, not

20:54

of the zines that I saw at that

20:56

time interweaved their artwork in the story. So

20:58

it was really interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah.

21:02

That's something else I've loved about recent fanfiction,

21:04

which we are going to get to, I

21:06

promise. But I love when they do that,

21:08

where they have like art interspersed in the

21:11

story. Like, I love that. And

21:14

I'm really going to rue the day if it

21:16

is zines and not zines, Samantha, but it was

21:18

me, I promise. It

21:21

just makes sense to me. I'm

21:23

pretty sure, right? I think I was corrected when I first

21:25

said that too. Okay.

21:28

Well, we'll see. We could have

21:30

just looked it up, but we're too into it now.

21:33

Nope. Nope. Here's

21:35

a quote from a Guardian article written

21:37

by Ruth Jamison. If

21:40

modern feminism is multifaceted by nature, there

21:42

now seems to be an independently published

21:44

magazine or zine for every one of

21:46

those faces. There's

21:48

Sabat, which explores modern witchcraft through a

21:50

feminist lens. Typical Girls, which sets out

21:53

to show there's no such thing. The

21:55

Women Only Zine Girls Club, female

21:58

general interest mag, Lyra. or

22:00

Lyra, and Private Eye meets

22:02

Vogue satirical glossy mushpit, Elsewell riposte,

22:05

the smart magazine for women,

22:07

burnt roti which showcases the talent

22:09

of South Asian women, Galdum, the

22:11

print version of the popular website

22:14

for women of color, of the

22:16

same name, and feminist indie mags

22:18

Ladybeard and Fruitlands are amplifying

22:20

women's voices, chanting female writing, and challenging

22:22

ideas about what a women's magazine can

22:25

be. These publications tap into a

22:27

rich history of female protest and print. Here's

22:29

a quote within the article, obviously there are

22:31

lots of women in the media, but

22:33

they rarely control every aspect of a magazine.

22:36

It's even rarer that they own it, says

22:38

Phoebe Lindsay of Fruitlands. Historically, women have taken

22:40

control of the way they are not represented

22:43

by publishing on their own terms. Think

22:45

of Spare Rib and the Riot Girls' genes

22:47

of the 90s. By

22:49

having our own magazine, we can control

22:51

and direct every element of our message.

22:53

The lack of diversity in the media

22:56

is unbelievably frustrating, says Galdum's opinion editor

22:58

Heather Barnett. Galdum are changing

23:00

that by providing a platform where women

23:02

and non-binary people of color can write about

23:04

whatever they like. Yeah, so the

23:07

article continues. The boom in

23:09

independent magazine publishing has shown that print

23:11

is not dead. Now, independent women's magazines

23:13

are setting the standard for a more

23:15

progressive women's media. They are changing the

23:17

face of women's magazines and have their

23:19

sites set on the media as a

23:22

whole. As Connery and Taylor

23:24

says, quote, the number of women who

23:26

are running independent magazines is inspiring. We're

23:28

everywhere getting s*** done. It

23:31

seems print is not only not dead, it

23:33

has also come back as a woman. Yes,

23:36

I like that. And here's a quote

23:38

from the Women's Media Center. Sue Myers

23:40

is a graphic designer who, along with

23:42

five other people, organizes the NYC Feminist

23:44

Zine Fest. The event that has been

23:46

happening since 2011 and

23:49

offers a space to first-timers and old-school

23:51

zine makers to present their work and

23:53

exchange ideas. The event started with $300

23:55

raised on GoFundMe and

23:57

the purpose of, quote, promoting the

23:59

self-published... work of zine stirs of

24:02

all genders as they explore a

24:04

variety of feminist topics through print

24:06

media. The fact that

24:08

zines are quote created without any

24:10

mediating influence from advertisers is an

24:12

important aspect of the forms, Meyer

24:14

said. A zine can

24:16

be a lot of things and because of

24:19

this its precise definition can be wonderfully woefully

24:21

difficult to pin down, she added. Yes, and

24:23

this is one of the things I love

24:25

doing this research is there's a lot of

24:27

collections or events like this for zines and

24:29

I would love to go. I'm pretty

24:31

sure Laina had a zine fest. I'm pretty

24:34

sure in the early 2000s they actually did

24:36

or mid 2000s they did have a zine

24:38

fest which I was like what's

24:40

happening? It's cool. Now you know. Now you

24:43

know. Many zines

24:45

are available in digital forms. Some argue

24:47

that they were essentially pre-internet versions of

24:49

blogs. Others argue that the

24:51

physical nature is key to what makes

24:53

a zine a zine and that's

24:55

why and one of the reasons why at least

24:58

they're experiencing a surge during the time of social

25:00

media like people want something kind of different where

25:02

you can be random. It's in your hands, physical,

25:05

but this brings us to why

25:07

my fan fiction sense was tingling

25:10

because the digital bit is not

25:12

necessarily about not offering a print

25:14

option. A lot

25:16

of people are arguing it's about preserving for

25:19

future generations. So as

25:21

discussed in our episode on Archive

25:23

of Our Own or AO3

25:26

which is one of the largest, I'm pretty sure

25:28

the largest fan fiction platforms

25:30

in existence, we talked about how it's

25:32

just one piece of the

25:35

non-profit, the organization of transformative works

25:38

and as part of their mission

25:40

to preserve older fan fiction largely

25:42

published in fan zines they recently

25:45

launched the fan zine scan hosting

25:47

project in collaboration with Zendim and

25:50

basically the goal is to preserve

25:52

these physical fan fictions on

25:54

their site and I have seen

25:56

some of the results out what was happening.

25:58

I was like oh Look

26:01

at this! And

26:03

a handful of my favorite authors have sort of

26:05

fallen off the map to participate in it. That

26:09

was another thing I saw where they'd be like,

26:11

I gotta go scan some... What

26:13

did they say? Cody1zines, I'll be

26:15

back. And I was like,

26:17

what? Okay?

26:21

But yeah, I've seen these

26:24

fan fiction that are decades

26:26

old and they're so well written.

26:28

And I'm just like, wow,

26:30

I understand why you were published and I'm so glad it

26:33

was saved. I'm so glad I'm reading it right now. And

26:35

as mentioned before, many times

26:37

most fan fiction is created by

26:39

women and other marginalized folks, which

26:41

means that those folks

26:44

are largely spearheading this project.

26:46

Love to see it. For years,

26:49

Zendim has been scanning and archiving

26:51

this material, but this new project

26:53

came in part out of frustration

26:55

that AO3's technology didn't really allow

26:57

for uploading scanned fanzines, which I

26:59

was wondering. I was like, can

27:01

they do that? Morgan Dawn,

27:03

who was leading the project, described

27:06

the difficulty of uploading the scans

27:08

and that once uploaded, they can't

27:10

be edited and many errors are

27:12

often introduced. Dawn

27:14

was trying to upload a novel-length fanfic with

27:16

this process to AO3 in 2012, but got

27:20

annoyed with it. So just put up a

27:22

Google Drive link to the PDF. Sounds like

27:24

something I would do, but it was taken

27:26

down because the link was not fan work,

27:29

which is weird. Right. It's

27:31

a link to fan work, but

27:34

it's not fan work. Actual fan work.

27:36

Mm-hmm. Yes. And I

27:39

have experienced this whole hassle of converting

27:41

a PDF. I hear you. She

27:43

sees you. I do. She

27:45

hears you. Yes, I

27:48

really do. This

27:50

led to a whole discussion about preserving fan

27:52

history, a lot of this history

27:54

in zines and how that fell to the

27:56

fans because the fans are the ones making

27:58

these things. Dawn

28:01

started Zindum to take on this whole thing,

28:03

uploading and converting docs with permission. I'm going

28:05

to talk about that more in a second.

28:08

And only a handful of volunteers. But

28:10

because of that, it just wasn't working

28:13

like Dawn wanted, like the volunteer and

28:15

the scheduling and the organizing and all

28:17

the technology, it wasn't working. So Dawn

28:19

reached out to open

28:21

doors, a part of the organization

28:23

of transformative works with the mission. And

28:26

their mission is, by the way, preserving,

28:28

quote, those vanish projects that might

28:30

otherwise be lost due to lack of time,

28:32

interest or resources on the part of the

28:34

current maintainer to join

28:36

in. So Dawn reached out to them. Mission

28:39

seems like it fits right in with what Zindum's

28:41

trying to do. But because of

28:43

things that we talked about in that fanfiction

28:45

episode on IO3 of crackdowns

28:48

on like Tumblr, the shutdown of Yahoo

28:50

groups where a lot of fanfic was

28:52

hosted, this process got really, really delayed.

28:55

So it wasn't until I think 2019 that

28:57

they started

29:00

working together. Another thing,

29:03

like, okay, first, IO3 is also

29:05

run by volunteers. And one of the things we talked

29:07

about in that episode is that their technology is old,

29:10

like it's not super

29:13

old, but it needs to be updated, but it's

29:15

just like gotten so out of control that they

29:17

also are struggling with that stuff. Another thing is

29:20

the tech divide. It's kind of been

29:22

an issue because a lot of fanzines

29:24

were written by older people who might

29:26

not be the most tech savvy to

29:28

scan and save their work. And

29:31

another thing, and this is what I found really

29:33

fascinating, and I would love to expand on this,

29:35

but people often wrote under pen

29:37

names and are hard to

29:39

find. So Dawn talked about

29:41

like calling people

29:43

and having these, you know, maybe never finding them

29:46

or maybe finding out that they had died or

29:48

maybe connecting with an old relative who was so

29:50

thrilled. Like maybe they had lost that relative who

29:52

wrote it and was so thrilled to have this

29:54

kind of piece of like, Oh, I didn't know

29:56

they wrote that or whatever, because

29:58

they can't upload them without. permission. They have

30:01

to get the permission first. Uh-huh.

30:04

Uh-huh. Yeah. Have

30:12

you ever heard of the term nuclear

30:14

family? The term was coined by an

30:16

anthropologist in the 1920s to describe the

30:18

family structure of a straight married couple

30:20

and their kids. Well now, over a

30:23

century later, that definition of family describes

30:25

only 18% of American households. From

30:29

This Is Actually Happening comes the 82%

30:32

modern stories of love and family. A

30:34

six-part series focused on those who have

30:37

challenged some of our deepest societal norms

30:39

by reimagining what love and family can

30:41

be. From an asexual educator and activist

30:43

raising a child with two other co-parents

30:46

to a gay man in the clergy

30:48

who chose the path of celibacy and

30:50

created a unique family unit with his

30:53

straight best friend. Each episode offers an

30:55

intimate first-person perspective from those whose family

30:57

lives have taken different shapes. To listen

31:00

to the 82% series, follow

31:02

This Is Actually Happening on the

31:04

Wondery app or wherever you get

31:06

your podcasts. You can listen to

31:08

This Is Actually Happening ad-free on

31:10

Wondery Plus. Tennessee just

31:12

sounds perfect. Whether that's live music, the

31:14

crack of a campfire, or kids laughing

31:17

on an adventure. To

31:19

start planning your trip,

31:21

visit tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds

31:23

perfect. This podcast

31:25

is brought to you by Kim Crawford Wines. Life

31:28

is busy. There are so many things on your to-do

31:30

list with so little time to do them. And you're

31:33

always thinking about others' needs before thinking

31:35

of your own. Trust me,

31:37

we understand. Kim Crawford does too. That's

31:39

why they're inviting you to experience Golden

31:41

Hour, your chance to reclaim your time

31:44

and laugh with your favorite people, play

31:46

your favorite song on repeat, gaze outside

31:48

your window in daydream about your wildest

31:50

dreams, or celebrate your victories.

31:52

No matter the moment, you can savor

31:55

it all with a chilled glass of

31:57

New Zealand's finest as the number one-ranked

31:59

Sauvignon Blanc in the U.S. US, Kim

32:01

Crawford has classic aromas of lifted citrus,

32:03

tropical fruit, and crushed herbs to help

32:05

you stay in a golden hour state

32:07

of mind. Because golden hour is more

32:09

than just time is whenever you want

32:12

to savor amazing. Visit kimcrawfordwines.com

32:14

to learn more. That's

32:16

kimcrawfordwines.com to find Kim

32:18

Crawford wine near you.

32:20

Savor amazing. For those

32:23

21 and over, please

32:25

savor responsibly. Constellation Imports,

32:27

Rutherford, California. This

32:29

episode is brought to you by PNC

32:31

Bank, who believes some things in life

32:33

should be boring. Like banking. Because boring

32:35

is safe and responsible, level-headed and wise.

32:37

All things you want your bank to

32:40

be. You don't want your bank to

32:42

be cool or sexy. Sexy is for

32:44

80s hair bands, not banks. That's why

32:46

PNC Bank strives to be boring with

32:48

your money so you can be happily

32:51

fulfilled with your life. PNC Bank, brilliantly

32:53

boring since 1865. Stunningly

32:56

boring since 1865 is a

32:58

service mark of the PNC

33:00

Financial Services Group Incorporated. PNC

33:02

Bank, a National Association member

33:05

FDIC. Did somebody say free

33:07

diamond bracelet? That's right! Diamonds Direct is

33:09

expanding upon their best offer yet. Make

33:11

any purchase this month and receive a

33:13

free diamond tennis bracelet valued at $2,000.

33:16

That's right! Any engagement ring, any

33:19

diamond necklace, any timepiece. Purchase any item

33:21

valued at $10,000 or more and receive

33:23

a stunning diamond tennis bracelet at no

33:25

extra cost. Every purchase of $10,000 or

33:27

more qualifies. So

33:29

hurry into Diamonds Direct. Your chance to

33:31

get a free tennis bracelet ends June

33:34

30th. Details at diamondsdirect.com. So

33:42

with this project, thousands of physical fans'

33:44

names have been scanned. Most, yeah, were

33:46

found through Facebook groups or just reaching

33:48

out to the names they found in

33:50

the zines. But there

33:52

are thousands and thousands and thousands more to

33:54

go. One volunteer has 8,000

33:57

Star Trek fan zines alone. alone.

34:02

And I want to talk about this. I want to do

34:04

the bigger episode on this one day because it was

34:06

so interesting. But the Kirk Spock fan fiction archive was one

34:08

of the first to be imported to AO3. And it

34:11

was being run by a fan who'd

34:13

taken on the task of maintaining an

34:16

archive of zines in that arena. Notably,

34:18

this fandom is also the source of

34:20

a lot of our more modern, Spanish

34:22

spaces and understanding, including

34:25

slash and the ripple effects that

34:27

had in a lot of the women were writing about why

34:29

they were writing Kirk and

34:31

Spock is a romantic couple. And they were talking about how

34:33

they identified with Spock is not belonging anywhere

34:35

and getting all this like guff for that.

34:37

It was just really interesting, really,

34:40

really interesting to see the ripple effects

34:42

of that. Open Doors is

34:45

starting to archive Zindum's links and

34:47

is working with universities and other

34:49

institutions to make these zines available

34:51

online to the public, which it

34:53

hasn't previously been the case. Like some

34:55

universities have these collections, but

34:58

you had to be a student and go in

35:00

person to see them. So that's

35:02

a piece of it to you from

35:04

a 2022 article by Jay

35:06

Castello. And this is a long quote, so

35:08

bear with me. It means

35:11

not being forgotten, said Maggie now a cow's

35:13

the co editor of geek elders speak an

35:15

anthology of essays by older women in fandom.

35:17

Now a cow's herself is 73. And

35:20

I hope I'm not butchering your name. One

35:23

reason for preserving and celebrating that history is

35:25

the fact that so many of the franchises

35:27

key to Phantom history like Star Trek and

35:29

Star Wars have a reputation of being for

35:31

boys. Whereas fanfic and fan zines have traditionally

35:33

been a space dominated by women. They

35:36

don't think we ever existed. They don't know

35:38

that women did all these things. Says now

35:40

a cow's go Julie Baza,

35:43

an Australian fanzine author and publisher who

35:45

volunteers with Open Doors also emphasizes that

35:47

preservation isn't just about making sure the

35:49

best fanfiction is available to readers. It's

35:51

about preserving the culture and history that

35:53

got us to where we are now.

35:56

It's really interesting to get an idea of the bigger

35:58

picture she says tropes are being

36:00

written about and why at different

36:02

times. How have things changed? For

36:04

instance, fanfiction has often been celebrated

36:07

for its ability to give writers

36:09

and readers a chance to explore

36:11

their gender and sexuality. This terminology

36:13

has changed with words like lemon,

36:15

denoting explicit sexual content, and even

36:17

slash denoting male-male relationships falling out

36:19

of favor. But knowing

36:21

how and why they were used as

36:23

important in understanding how same-sex relationships and

36:26

women's sexualities were even more policed than

36:28

they are today. At

36:31

the same time, preservation can also demonstrate

36:33

the sheer breadth of fan works. Baza

36:35

shared some scans with me, which include

36:37

a series of haiku inspired by 80s

36:40

sci-fi movie, Buckaroo Banzai, for instance. When

36:42

you open up fanzine, you'll see cartoons, you'll

36:45

see essays, you'll see poetry, you'll see snarky

36:47

little comments, you'll see letters of comment, said

36:49

Nowakowska. And that's a totally different

36:51

experience than just reading one story. Which

36:55

I love. They were kind of talking about that in terms

36:57

of, you know, like

36:59

if you go to fanfiction.net, which

37:02

is what they're talking about with the slash. The reason

37:05

we say slash is because if you said like Kirk

37:08

and Ampersand Spock, that's a

37:10

friendship. If you say Kirk slash Spock,

37:13

that is a romantic relationship. But

37:15

that's not everybody uses fanfiction.net anymore.

37:17

Like that's not how it is

37:19

necessarily on every site. Although

37:22

it is still in my case, that's what

37:24

I usually see. But I love that. And I love like this

37:27

idea of when you open a fanzine, it's

37:31

not like when you click a tag, and you know what

37:33

you're looking for, you know what you're gonna get probably. But

37:36

you could get a series of

37:38

haiku. That's amazing. That's

37:41

amazing. Yes. Wow.

37:43

You just brought me back. It really like

37:45

I forgot about this. Yeah. It was

37:48

so cool. Yeah, it

37:51

was cool. It's something that I'm like, I

37:53

love it, but I would never have the

37:55

courage to do it because I'm not artistic.

37:58

I think I actually participated in putting like

38:00

a stanza in one.

38:02

I could be making this up, but this seems familiar.

38:04

Like I'm having a time. Or

38:06

maybe I was just around when people

38:08

did that. I don't remember. I remember

38:10

buying, because I loved going to local

38:13

readings. Like we have a lot of good writers

38:15

in Atlanta. We know this. I Heart

38:17

has been blessed with some of our writers

38:20

recently of fiction, including yourself, including

38:23

there was a thing called a right

38:25

club. I don't know

38:27

they still going. And I believe one of

38:29

our producers, Mike Johns was a part of

38:31

that. She was a big founding

38:34

and beginning of that. I remember hearing her read

38:37

there. So shout out to one of the

38:39

producers of I Heart and our family rather,

38:42

who began this and

38:44

seeing different writers

38:46

go up and give an essay and

38:48

have a moment. But in that same

38:50

group, they did zine clubs. And I

38:52

think they still do actually. Now that

38:55

you say that, I feel like it's been a year

38:57

since I attended one of those, but I think they

38:59

still do it. And

39:01

I know right club is I think an

39:03

international thing, but it's the right club of

39:05

Atlanta was started by them. And

39:09

I remember them selling independently

39:11

published books and independent

39:13

zines. Like now that I'm thinking about

39:15

it, it's been several years since I've

39:17

attended one. They still do that. And

39:19

I love that aspect of it because

39:21

it brings a lot of personality to

39:24

these writings. And yeah, wow, you've

39:28

really thrown me back. And that's in fact, I just

39:30

had to re look through Twitter because it's not a

39:32

part of your world. You don't know,

39:34

which thank you very much for bringing it back

39:37

into my world. There's one

39:39

group called Queer Circle. And I believe

39:41

they're based out of the UK that

39:43

did a thing called A to Zine,

39:46

which they did in December, which they

39:48

brought over a hundred zines submitted by

39:50

different people from all over the world,

39:52

all of the world from the queer

39:54

community. And I'm like, hell

39:57

yeah, that's stuff like that. It's so

39:59

amazing. And I forgot. the impact of

40:01

things like this. Yeah,

40:03

yeah, this was a really fun

40:05

one to research because I

40:07

kind of knew about them, but I didn't

40:10

know too much. I'm so glad that this

40:12

project is happening, that these fanzines are getting

40:14

preserved because there was a lot of

40:16

other... Honestly, we talked about this before, Samantha. Sometimes we

40:18

just want to quote entire articles because

40:21

it's like, okay, yes, this is it. But

40:24

a lot of the older women they interviewed were like,

40:26

yeah, well, I don't want this to get lost because

40:29

I think other people will still enjoy it. And it's such

40:31

a good marker of where the

40:33

fandom was then. So why should

40:35

it get lost just because the internet wasn't

40:38

around then? Right. So I don't know. It

40:40

makes me very happy. Yeah,

40:42

it encompasses so many mediums to this

40:44

that it's a phenomenal thing. And then

40:46

being digitized would be an amazing thing

40:48

to preserve things. I would love to

40:50

see some of the 1930s zines. I

40:53

want to know what those are. Someone give me a

40:55

copy. Because they're also

40:57

like aesthetically pleasing because for me, I

40:59

love variety and it doesn't need to

41:02

be clean. I love... It's not chaos,

41:04

but the variety within it and the

41:06

way they bring it together, then I'm

41:08

like, yeah, this is fun. This is

41:10

an amusing thing that you can see

41:13

and it's someone's take of whatever

41:15

they're publishing or whatever they're trying to send out.

41:17

So yeah. Good job. Yeah.

41:20

Well, I mean, like I said, I

41:22

have been enjoying the fanfiction, everybody. Thanks

41:24

who is doing that and uploading it

41:26

because I've been like blown away. I

41:28

literally obviously texted you and was like,

41:30

I'm reading a fanfiction that is so

41:32

much better than so

41:34

much of the official stuff out there.

41:37

Like, wow. And it would have been

41:39

lost. It would have been lost. And that's just... Yeah,

41:43

I don't want it. I'm very

41:46

happy. So if

41:48

anybody listening is participating in this or has any thoughts

41:50

about this, that would be great. But

41:52

yeah, it is pretty beautiful to bring like

41:55

one topic and see all these different takes

41:58

on it. All these... I don't

42:00

know. It is really cool. Pretty much anyone can

42:02

make one. There are tutorials online if you're interested.

42:06

If you have made one, oh my goodness,

42:08

let us know. Yes. Yes. And

42:10

if you have any suggestions, because we

42:12

did go over some in

42:14

that middle part, but there are a

42:16

lot right now and it's, a

42:19

lot is happening. And especially in,

42:21

yeah, kind of the intersectional feminist realm

42:24

of zine. So send

42:26

to those our way. Yeah. Maybe we can

42:28

do that as a book club somehow. That'd

42:30

be cool. I think

42:32

we could. I think we could. Well,

42:35

in the meantime, if you got any of those

42:38

suggestions or thoughts about this at all, you

42:40

can email us at StephanieMoms, stuff at iheartmedia.com. You

42:42

can find us on Twitter at MostUp Podcast or

42:44

on Instagram at Stuff On Never Told You. Thanks

42:46

as always to our super producer, Christina. Thank you,

42:48

Christina. Yes. And thanks to you for listening. Stuff

42:50

On Never Told You is a production of I

42:52

Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,

42:54

you can check out the I Heart Radio app,

42:57

or every listen to your favorite shows. This

43:10

podcast is brought to you by Kim

43:12

Crawford Wines. Kim Crawford invites you to

43:15

savor amazing with a chilled glass of

43:17

New Zealand's finest named in the wine

43:19

spectator top 100 list four

43:21

times. Every sip of Kim Crawford

43:23

Sauvignon Blanc is filled with tropical

43:25

fruit flavors like passion fruit and

43:27

citrus to help you experience golden

43:29

hour how you see fit. Visit

43:31

kimcroffordwines.com to learn more and find

43:34

Kim Crawford wine near you. Savor

43:36

amazing. Over please savor

43:39

responsibly. Constellation imports, Rutherford,

43:41

California. Tennessee just

43:43

sounds perfect. Whether that's live music, the

43:45

crack of a campfire, or kids laughing

43:47

on an adventure. To start

43:49

planning your trip, visit tnvacation.com. Tennessee

43:53

sounds perfect. This

43:55

episode is brought to you by PNC Bank who

43:57

believes some things in life should be boring.

44:00

like banking. Because boring is safe and

44:02

responsible, level-headed and wise. All things you

44:04

want your bank to be. You don't

44:07

want your bank to be cool or

44:09

sexy. Sexy's for 80s hair bands, not

44:11

banks. That's why PNC Bank strives to

44:14

be boring with your money so you

44:16

can be happily fulfilled with your life.

44:18

PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly

44:22

boring since 1865 is a service mark of

44:25

the PNC Financial Services Group,

44:28

Incorporated. PNC Bank, a national

44:30

association member FTIC. Hey,

44:32

it's Paris Hilton. Check out

44:34

my new single, I'm Free, featuring Rina Sawayama.

44:36

I'm free, yeah. To

44:40

do what I want to be. This

44:42

song strives to be boring with your money so you

44:45

can be happily fulfilled with your life. PNC

44:47

Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly

44:51

boring since 1865 is a service mark of

44:54

the PNC Financial Services Group,

44:56

Incorporated. PNC Bank, a

44:58

national association member FTIC. Hey,

45:02

it's Paris Hilton. Check out my

45:04

new single, I'm Free, featuring Rina

45:06

Sawayama. I'm free, yeah. To

45:09

do what I want to be. The

45:11

song can change your life, and that's what

45:14

Free by Ultra Nete did for me. My

45:16

first single from my new album, Infinite Icon,

45:18

is a reimagined version of the iconic song.

45:21

Listen to I'm Free on iHeartRadio or

45:23

wherever you stream music, and

45:25

visit infiniteicon.com to pre-save my

45:27

album. Sponsored by 1111 Media. Take

45:31

a deep dive into the stories, making

45:33

the news headlines across the world. The

45:35

news agents. We're not just here to

45:37

tell you what's happening, but why, from

45:39

me, Emily Maitless. And me, John Sople.

45:41

With Global's award,