0:04

Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome

0:06

to stuff I've never told to your protection of I Heart Radio's

0:09

how stuff works. Samantha

0:20

and I have just gotten back from a very long trip,

0:23

so long that I've lost my voice almost

0:25

completely. Yes, between

0:27

the yelling at our conference to the

0:29

screaming at the rides that

0:31

you made me go on, and

0:35

like I forced you to do something you didn't

0:37

want to do, I feel like a couple of those rides where I was

0:39

tricked into I would never

0:41

do such a thing. Yes, we were in No Orlando

0:43

for podcast movement Spider trying to kill

0:45

me the Spider. Yeah, I remember

0:48

that whatever Harry

0:50

Potter ride with Bidden

0:52

Journey. You didn't

0:54

tell me about that, and I got to ride the new Harry

0:57

Potter ride. I did.

0:59

She lift the glory And it's partly

1:01

through the support of Samantha, because you're the

1:03

one that told me, whatever is going to happen.

1:05

You've got to write that right. Look after

1:08

the many discussions and the fact that

1:10

your face kind of fell when you thought you weren't going to

1:12

be able to do it, and I'm like, no, it

1:14

has to be done, and it was

1:16

done. And that's

1:18

kind of what we're talking about today is

1:21

women supporting other women, which is

1:23

something very important to both of us because

1:26

women are and have been frequently

1:28

conditioned to compete with other

1:30

women for jobs for men, which

1:32

is yes, very heteronormative. In this UM

1:35

for success, I have witnessed example

1:37

after example of this. I

1:39

have been a part of this UM.

1:42

A great example is calling a woman

1:44

a horror slut when she sleeps with

1:46

a man, but not judging the man in

1:48

the same way. But more and

1:50

more women are calling it for what

1:53

it is BS and they're

1:55

supporting other women right And we're

1:57

so excited, So we wanted to talk a little bit about

1:59

the positives of women supporting

2:01

women UM again. We last week we went

2:03

to Orlando for our little

2:06

conference. It was a little

2:08

it was huge. We had a lot of free T shirts

2:11

now you are. I've been wearing mine pretty

2:13

happily and it's been amazing. And one of the

2:15

things that we got to do was be on a panel with

2:18

our podcasts from our FAM

2:21

podcast world. Is that what we would call it, don't

2:24

network networks. I want to call it something else.

2:26

I wanna be my own, my fam. This is my

2:28

podcast fam UM ethnically ambiguous

2:31

Anna and Sharene, And it was so

2:33

fun to get to know these women that we kind

2:35

of know from AFAR because they're based out

2:37

of l A and we're in Atlanta,

2:40

and so being able to like sit and talk with them

2:42

into like actually bond has been

2:44

phenomenal and just the idea of hearing

2:46

where they're coming from and how hard they've worked

2:49

in the same way with all of us where we come from. It's

2:51

really beautiful just to be able to get

2:53

together and to actually push each

2:55

other and like support each other. And

2:57

I think that it was important that we come

2:59

back and had that as an actual discussion.

3:03

Yeah, because the panel

3:05

we did um was

3:07

on something we talked about recently, podcaster

3:09

imposter syndrome. And most

3:13

of the people who were there were

3:15

women, and it was early

3:17

in the morning, so early. A

3:20

couple of our a couple of our coworkers

3:22

showed up as well, but it was it

3:24

was so nice to just have

3:26

that crowd and see women supporting other

3:28

women. One of the people who showed up was

3:30

Savers Laura Vocable, Yes,

3:33

and she was there with us one percent

3:35

of the time to support us. She was and

3:38

she is not a morning person. She would not mind me telling

3:40

you that she is not morning person.

3:42

It meant a lot to me. She was fantastic.

3:46

So what we're talking about is

3:49

women supporting other women, and there

3:51

is a lot of research into this. Studies

3:53

have shown that women who support other women find

3:55

more success when it comes to business, and that women

3:57

benefit more from collaboration as a posed

4:00

to competition. Woman with

4:02

a squad or a close enter circle

4:04

of female friends are more likely to get executive

4:07

positions that pay more money. Data

4:09

has not shown the same to be true for men,

4:11

and it's floked into it. It just hasn't shown that

4:13

same relationship for correlation. Having

4:17

other women to turn to, for example, when it comes to negotiating

4:20

contracts, has been incredibly valuable

4:23

for me. Yeah, me too. Not only did

4:25

I have valuable advice from other women, but my contract

4:27

was handled by a badass woman who

4:30

was a friend of mine, who came to bat for me and really

4:32

fought to make sure of my contract was as

4:34

fair as it could be. So it's fantastic,

4:37

oh absolutely, And for women,

4:39

having this group of close friends is

4:41

one way to combat the systems of bias

4:43

that we face, whether it's through offering advice and

4:46

mentorship, having each other's backs

4:48

are offering words of encouragement. Yeah, I think

4:50

it's another testament to not filling alone having

4:52

a support group though at all. Past

4:55

host Christen and Caroline did an episode on the shine theory,

4:58

which is in essence that women support other

5:00

women shine UM.

5:02

Women who don't support other women, who believe that

5:04

women fundamentally can't get along and

5:07

or there's only room for one at the top are frequently

5:09

called queen bees. There are some mixed

5:11

usages of that that phrase, but for

5:14

for our purposes here. UM studies have found

5:16

that women prefer male bosses

5:18

at large when it comes to work situations,

5:21

Specifically, since women are still underrepresented,

5:23

there can sometimes be a sense that women

5:25

have to compete for the quote, one

5:28

spot on the board, or whatever it is. Some

5:30

studies show that men generally

5:33

are more biased against women in professional

5:35

settings, but when it comes to a confident man

5:37

and a confident woman, they have no preference.

5:40

However, women never, repeat

5:42

never chose the confident

5:45

woman versus the confident man. M

5:48

Yeah, that's that shows

5:51

something Yeah, not

5:53

great. This also comes with the favoritism

5:56

threat that women publicly helping other women

5:58

will be seen as an act of favorite is m or

6:00

bias. Right, And then you know,

6:02

while we call this favoritism and biased, we have

6:04

the boys club and that doesn't seem to be a

6:06

negative idea. It's such a weird like connotation

6:09

of being together and being fat pulling

6:11

each other up. Yet when women do it, it's favoritism

6:14

or sexist, not sexist, that's the word. That's

6:16

the other way. It could be that way, actually,

6:20

but you know that it is not such a negative connotation.

6:22

Yeah, And research across

6:25

one thirty seven societies found that of

6:28

female competitive acts were targeted towards

6:30

other women, and the history

6:33

of women hating other women, of undercutting

6:35

and under miming other women is a long

6:37

one, starting in Victorian times.

6:40

While romantic relationships between women

6:42

were celebrated, they were also viewed as short

6:44

lived and superficial. Appropriation

6:46

for a quote real marriage with a Man from

6:49

the eighteen sixty eight book The Friendships of Women,

6:51

written by a male minister, I

6:54

was often struck both by the small number of recorded

6:56

examples of the sentiment among women and

6:58

by the commonness of the express bill that strong

7:00

natural obstacles make friendship a comparatively

7:03

feeble and rare experience with them,

7:06

or criminal

7:09

woman, the prostitute, and the normal woman,

7:11

also written by a man quote.

7:14

Due to women's latent antipathy for one

7:16

another, trivial events give rise to

7:18

fierce hatreds, and due to women's irascibility,

7:21

these occasions lead quickly to insolence

7:23

and assaults. Women of high social

7:25

station do the same thing, but they're more refined.

7:28

Forms of insults do not lead to law

7:30

courts. Yeah, okay.

7:34

At this time when women couldn't own property

7:37

or much of anything really, or they couldn't have jobs.

7:39

In most cases, competing for men that could

7:41

provide was a matter of life

7:43

and death. Or it could be sex workers

7:45

were blamed for selling the representation of

7:48

other women, and women in charge of those sex

7:50

workers frequently cheated other women

7:52

out of their wages. Researchers

7:55

have put forth two main theories for

7:57

why this rivalry

8:00

exist. The first is evolutionary

8:02

psychology a k. We have

8:04

to protect our wombs, so indirect

8:07

aggression is the way to go, or

8:09

the feminist psychology theory basically that it's

8:11

internalized misogyny uh internalized

8:14

mail, gays society teaching women their value

8:16

and identity, is wrapped up in their attractiveness

8:18

to men, which in turn makes them compete

8:20

against each other for men. I

8:24

also read this huge, huge essay about

8:26

the economics of sexual reality

8:29

and it was too much

8:31

future episode. But whoa,

8:33

whoa, whoa. Another

8:36

part of this is self competition. When

8:38

you see a woman you think it's prettier, smarter, and

8:40

or better than you, you're really competing against

8:42

yourself, but you're projecting it onto her.

8:45

Other researchers highlight that too. Other

8:47

things that differentiate female competition

8:49

from male competition is that women with a

8:52

higher status or higher attractiveness

8:54

have less of an incentive to invest

8:56

in other women and enforced social

8:59

isolation on a new competitor. That's

9:01

the second reason ignoring a new attractive coworker

9:03

at the office or something like that. And

9:06

most of the studies around this competition between women

9:08

does suggest that women frequently judge around

9:11

looks. One study found that participants

9:13

judged a woman in sexy attire much

9:16

more harshly than a woman in a T shirt and jeans,

9:18

and they were the same woman just the group's first

9:20

blit up. Um. They largely

9:23

ignored the woman in the T shirt and jeanes so you can

9:25

be ignored or harshly judged. Yeah,

9:30

and also promiscuity. Of course, we can't

9:32

forget that pretty harsh judges, right, of course.

9:36

Uh, and this guy be wondering about things. Terms

9:38

we use in our language like catfight, which

9:41

is according to dictionary dot com, and intense

9:43

fight our argument, especially between two women,

9:46

and this was first used in eighteen fifty four.

9:49

Or similarly, if you look at Caddie Worctionnary

9:51

dot com defines that as a subtle

9:53

hostility and an effort to hurt annoy are upset,

9:56

particularly among women, and list

9:58

bitchy as a semn him which is also

10:01

pretty usually pretty directed

10:03

towards women. For what it's

10:05

worth, which is probably very

10:07

little. Most actual cat

10:09

fights are between unutered male cats,

10:12

which is right. Yes, thank you for

10:14

supporting me. If

10:17

you're curious why women seem to have this connection

10:20

with cats, and you're probably curious why

10:22

the podcast is going in this way, but this is just how my

10:24

mind was sometimes, Uh, in our

10:26

language, like because there's cougars and crazy cat

10:28

Lady as well, there are a couple of things at play,

10:30

and one is cats are perceived as being cunning, selfish,

10:33

and the sounds they make less

10:35

aggressive than dogs, which is the animal

10:37

they are most usually compared to. On

10:40

top of that, a paper out of Brown University

10:42

by Jennifer Lopez Rodriguez, looking into

10:44

Spanish and English metaphors for animals as

10:46

women, came up with this bit in a

10:48

section called women as Pets. Within

10:51

the animal world, pets enjoy a privileged

10:53

position. In fact, pets are not conceived

10:56

of as beast or burden, nor are

10:58

they killed for their meat or skin on the kind trade.

11:00

Pets share the same roof as their

11:02

owners, and their main function is to keep people

11:04

company. This benevolent attitude towards

11:06

pets find its way into the English language,

11:09

for the very word pet is used as a term of

11:11

endegrement. So

11:13

that's the cat aside for this episode.

11:15

I like that. Thank you for getting that information. I know

11:17

nothing about cats. Okay, let's move on

11:19

from cats. Uh. I did want to mention,

11:22

of course, not like other girls. We've

11:24

we touched on that a lot. Are people who say, and

11:26

I had a friend who used to say this, even though I was a friend, I

11:28

don't make friends with other women. And she would usually

11:31

specify it was because they were dramatic,

11:33

or they cause a lot of drama, right, are

11:35

that too? Or they were too jealous of me? Or oh

11:37

yeah, or that the guys.

11:39

She gets alone better with guys because you know she has

11:41

some interests as guys, she's not goally enough,

11:44

right right, right, Yeah, we

11:46

all probably have those those people

11:48

in our lives. And um,

11:51

I think you could look at pretty much any magazine

11:53

cover for an example of our

11:56

society perpetuating this idea

11:58

that women do compete. We're all

12:00

about cat fights, Like I feel every

12:03

time I'm checking out of the store these days,

12:05

I see something about Kate Middleton and Meg and

12:07

Marco fighting, you know, things

12:09

like that. Of course they can't like each other, how dare are they?

12:12

Yeah, it's impossible, impossible.

12:16

Well, we do have some examples

12:18

of good relationships

12:20

women supporting women, so it is actually

12:23

possible. But first we have a quick

12:25

break for a word from our sponsor, and

12:40

we're back, Thank you sponsor. And yeah,

12:42

we did want to share some some examples,

12:44

some positive examples, starting with actress.

12:47

All right, I'm one of the things that I love, and I

12:49

remember the story with Jessica Chesting doing

12:51

the mini Mini talks about wage

12:53

gap in the celebrity slash Just

12:56

an Actor World and the differentiation um.

12:58

She actually had a conversed sation with

13:00

Octavia Spencer during one of the women

13:03

Breaking Barriers panel in which they

13:05

had a really frank discussion about the wage gap

13:07

when he came to gender, but Octavia had

13:10

kind of correct her. There's a

13:12

gender gap when it comes to wages, but there's also

13:15

the um race gap. So

13:18

even though Jessica make it paid less, Octavia

13:20

got paid even less than her. And

13:23

so as a way of showing

13:25

solidarity, Jessica helped negotiate for

13:27

their next movie a new salary

13:29

for both of them, which was five times more than

13:31

the original offer. Right,

13:34

And that's kind of like one of those moments of like, yes, finally,

13:37

let's let's have this moment of empowering

13:39

each other by supporting each other for people

13:41

who can't maybe can advocate for themselves.

13:44

So when we had this conversation with other white

13:46

women advocating for women of color, that's

13:48

fantastic. Or for assist women

13:51

to come out and advocate for those

13:53

who are identifying as females or Nauti's

13:55

accepted. I think it's such a big and powerful

13:57

way to do things. And I just love that story

14:00

as we Yes, here's one issue, but here's

14:02

a deeper issue. But yeah, just empowering

14:04

each other and fighting for each other, which is awesome.

14:07

Yes. Another great example

14:09

was the US Female the US

14:12

Women gymnasts supporting each other during the

14:14

Larry Nasca trial and just you

14:16

know, tweeting support or being there and

14:19

pretty much saying,

14:21

you know, I, um,

14:23

if you win the gold, I am so happy for you. Like

14:26

it was. It was really it was a sad thing,

14:28

but it was nice to see them on supporting each

14:30

other, coming together as a real team on

14:32

fighting this huge issue, which is fantastic.

14:36

And then there's tennis. It's tennis,

14:38

and you know, I think I've spoken I have. I've spoken about Serena

14:40

Williams before when she had

14:42

that argument with the ref and then

14:45

having to come back and apologize, but

14:47

then the most recent match with her at the

14:49

Cincinnati Masters where she had to

14:51

retire because she got a back injury. Um,

14:54

the scene afterwhere Bianca and Jesscue

14:56

and she are talking is such a great encouraging,

14:58

encouraging support. Seen Bianca

15:01

sitting there talking with her and supporting her

15:03

and get just encouraging about obviously,

15:05

what do you say. It's the right of Williams, who was just a badass

15:07

all together. But she comes

15:09

into like, hey, I'm so sorry this is happening, but

15:12

thank you so much, you know, just the build up, even

15:14

though their competitors like just

15:16

truly being sportsmanlike and

15:18

giving love to each other. Another

15:22

thing that I found that I really liked, And this is

15:24

from someone who is generally

15:27

a little wary of social media.

15:30

It takes a lot for me to get on there. Um,

15:33

when om the Selim tweeted about being

15:35

at a bar and receiving unwanted attention from

15:37

some dude, a woman she didn't know came

15:40

up to her and pretended to be her friend

15:43

to get Amanda to clear out any did, and

15:45

so many women responded

15:47

to that tweet with similar stories of women

15:50

supporting women. I love it just what

15:52

they're being harassed on the streets and coming in and swooping

15:54

in and walking with them to wherever next.

15:57

I love those moments. I do too. And

15:59

then they're politics, like

16:01

supporting women running running for office, things

16:03

like Emily's list. Yeah, maybe

16:06

being too optimistic at the beginning

16:08

of this, however, having moments of watching Warren

16:10

and Hairs taking pictures with each other or standing

16:13

up for each other, Gilly Brand splitting her

16:15

tissue with Hairs during a debate, like

16:17

stuff like that, and then even the Vogue photo alone,

16:20

which has them all together in a room in such

16:22

a strong manner and united,

16:25

it makes me want to applaud. I'm like yeah.

16:27

And then there was a conversation that happened in eighteen

16:30

how it was really difficult for women to

16:32

find their space in politics as they're

16:34

trying to represents themselves because

16:36

their voices seemingly are being drowned

16:39

out. There are these different stories of how

16:41

underwhelmed the female candidates were

16:43

in getting support from their Democratic Party

16:45

UM and many other running candidates had to create their own

16:48

network, support through other women who

16:50

are also campaigning, which is both

16:52

disheartening and encouraging. I mean,

16:55

there's hope, and we have to keep pushing forward,

16:57

but the fact that they had to create their own network

17:01

to have some people backing them, and and they

17:03

were all like on different opposing seats

17:05

and different levels, and yet through

17:07

the campaigns or through UM whatever

17:10

they were trying to do. I think there was a panel which

17:12

brought a lot of women together to talk about how

17:14

they wanted to be, how do they want to run?

17:17

And they started like exchanging numbers and cars

17:19

because they knew they needed each other, and like

17:21

they created lifelong friendships essentially

17:24

by supporting each other in this moment where

17:26

no one else kind of understood how but

17:28

that this difficult would be, how difficult this would

17:30

be, especially right now. And then the

17:32

people who are supposed supposed to support them,

17:35

they're not doing it. But

17:37

you know, as sad as that is, women uplifting

17:40

women, it makes a huge difference. We've seen it. We've

17:42

seen some good changes. Oh absolutely, And going

17:44

back to what you said about boys

17:46

clubs and some we're at the end

17:48

of the episode, we're gonna get into this more about some advice

17:50

I've seen is creating these

17:52

spaces for women to make those connections

17:55

and to help support each other, even like in

17:57

companies and universities all

17:59

over, and it's women taking

18:01

the initiative and saying

18:04

we need this, let's make it happen,

18:06

and we can help other women. I love that.

18:09

Another example we love is of a

18:11

nice lunkat um she

18:14

escaped female genital mutilation

18:16

and went on to say, fifteen thousand

18:18

girls in Kenya from the same procedure

18:21

and helped change how it is viewed, even

18:24

helping band mentioning the procedure in messi

18:26

oral tradition. On top of that, she was integral

18:28

and creating a ceremony that celebrates

18:31

the transition into womanhood um

18:33

with with singing and dancing and much more of

18:35

a positive thing. And

18:38

whatever you think about Taylor Swift uh

18:41

and whether or not some of these things

18:43

she's done are like legit or marketing,

18:46

she has made a show of supporting other women

18:48

were first getting in fights with a life of them,

18:51

but then publicly apologizing,

18:54

like with Nicki Minaj or Katie Perry.

18:56

I gassed aloud when I was watching music video

18:58

and Katie Perry s, did you really?

19:00

Yeah, She's She's just hamburger,

19:03

I know, And I was like, they're hut.

19:06

You know. There was a lot and I think you're not on on social

19:08

media, but there was a lot of like hents between

19:11

them sending each other all the wrench and I think cookies

19:13

were involved, which I would take cookies any day, which

19:15

is an apology. And then you know, Adele yes

19:18

like being so such

19:20

a big fan of Beyonce, I mean, how can you not

19:22

be though? Respect?

19:26

Respect? But it is nice to see

19:28

uh, And I like even in and Taylor supposed

19:31

new songs. She says something about, like all

19:34

you people on theirnet comparing, comparing

19:36

all of us, we we figured it out and

19:39

we all got crowns. Back up,

19:41

back up, you have a crown, you

19:44

have a ground? Do you have a crown? I

19:46

wanted that ground from the party. And there was a body

19:48

at a party were recently at just wearing a crown the entire

19:50

time. Wonder you were jealous? But he

19:53

he brought his own crown to be fair. He rocked it really

19:56

well. He did. So now we know, always have

19:58

a crown on your person in case. Yes,

20:00

new new motto, UM

20:03

and the meto era brought a lot of support for women

20:05

with that. I believe her as a part

20:07

of that as well, for many of the women who still had

20:09

to fight to be believed. But but watching

20:12

all these different women and even today I see

20:14

it Um when different things are

20:16

rising up in different issues or when

20:18

different controversies have happened, I'm still

20:20

using. I believe her, and I see that many

20:23

women are the ones that's behind it. And it's

20:25

a beautiful thing, even though sometimes

20:27

it's said that it has to be birth from

20:29

such a nasty, nasty or deal. Another

20:33

example is volunteering as abortion

20:35

escorts. And while

20:38

I was researching this episode, I went

20:40

down such a girl supporting

20:43

girls rabbit hole and it

20:45

was so beautiful and I teared up. Um.

20:48

Recently, we were at the airport and

20:51

a random woman came up and asked us

20:53

if we were dancers or models because we

20:55

were beautiful and had nice posture. And it was

20:57

the best. It really was. It was me you and Lauren

21:00

and having her come out out of nowhere because I first thought she was

21:02

gonna just ask us a random question about

21:05

right, and then she's like, are you all things? You have such a good posture,

21:07

and I was like this is I was getting ready to leave, but

21:09

thank you so very much. I love it. And

21:11

it was so nice because it was so unexpected anyway,

21:13

because I didn't look like

21:17

I was ready to dance on like that. I'm like ready

21:19

to go to sleep. Yeah, Never

21:22

underestimate the power of a genuine

21:24

compliment that is not like looking to

21:26

get something else out of it. And that's the other

21:28

thing. I think it's nice if you see

21:30

something that is nice. It's gonna

21:33

be awesome. Now I'm not gonna say

21:36

at the time, but I know I've had many of moments when

21:38

someone complimented my hair, complimented

21:40

my outfit or whatever,

21:43

and it's super also all thank

21:45

you. Of course, I always ended awkwardly

21:47

because I'm an awkward to person, but I

21:49

genuinely remember it, and from then on I'm like, oh,

21:52

that made me feel really nice. Yeah, And it's

21:54

such a easy thing to do, easy

21:56

way to really brighten someone. Actually,

21:59

this week when we went to do the podcast, we did

22:01

the panel and I came off and one

22:03

of our listeners came up and said hello

22:05

and and and was really encouraging, and I was like,

22:08

then made me feel so good. Thank you because

22:10

it was our first panel, and uh,

22:12

I think it went really well. But I was nervous at first.

22:14

I was shake We all were.

22:17

But you were just noticeable because you had paper and had

22:19

the paper. I was the nerd

22:21

that came with the printed out doctor Well,

22:23

you were moderating, so you had to remember the questions.

22:26

The rest of us got off. Scott Easy just been like, we're

22:28

just gonna answer you a question, blah blah, blah,

22:31

but yeah, that really meant a lot to come

22:33

up afterwards. We do also

22:35

see this in our media

22:37

other than like magazine coming rights, but

22:40

like mean girls was one of the first things that came

22:42

to mind for me. Um.

22:44

But then there's also kind of the more negative

22:47

side, things like Real Housewives.

22:50

Right. I was just thinking about like the travelinghood

22:53

of sister or something. Thank you. I

22:55

knew there was something to do with that, But the fact that they're

22:57

actually friends in real life, I love

23:00

that. I mean, like, I've never seen this movie. I had to get

23:02

the premise, and I think it's beautiful, but I love

23:04

that whole idea. Um. And

23:06

for all of its faults, Sex in the City, that's

23:09

one of the things I loved about it. And I wanted my

23:11

core group of friends to live together

23:13

for the rest of our lives and talk about

23:15

our bad sex lives or good sex lives hopefully

23:19

yes, yes, any kind of alcohol to be honest.

23:21

Um. But then then, yeah, you've got the other ones such as

23:24

Heathers. I want to go back the old school days

23:26

where they all trying to kill each other. What

23:29

have you ever seen Heathers? No, it's

23:32

a good eighties classic Christians. Later, one

23:34

on a writer way back when, and

23:36

this is it's this click of girls named

23:39

Heather and then one girl Veronica.

23:41

I think it's her. It's one on his character and

23:44

they're all very rich and very snobby

23:46

people, and then they all end up like slowly

23:48

trying to kill each other. But it

23:50

turns out to be I won't throw I won't, I won't

23:52

ruin the plot for you, quess you should watch. It's actually really

23:54

fun. They all trying to kill each other so

23:57

they can only be one Heather. Well, there's

23:59

a queen bee as there's a queen

24:01

of it, and so everybody's kind of like stacking to see who's

24:03

the top. I remember, it's

24:05

been a minute. But it's a good movie

24:07

by eighties standards. I need to put that as

24:09

a preface because then you're like, oh, hell, there's a lot

24:11

of really big problems in this movie.

24:14

By eight standards, it was really good.

24:17

Watch it and I'll see I see a lot of people still dressing

24:19

up at slow characters. Oh really yeah.

24:21

Uh. When I was thinking about this episode,

24:24

I was trying to think of examples in

24:26

my life of this happening

24:28

to me, of of women being like

24:31

cruel to me or or me being cruel to

24:33

women. And I feel like for me, people

24:36

were mean as to me when I was in middle

24:38

school and then early

24:40

high school, and then in

24:43

college I was I

24:45

was. I don't think I was ever purposefully.

24:49

I just had some like not

24:51

like other girls, and I would kind

24:53

of make fun of women I saw competing

24:55

for male attention in a way that wasn't very

24:58

kind. Um. That was like my freshman

25:00

year of college. But I got out of it pretty

25:02

quickly because that

25:06

and that's the thing that we're all taught this

25:08

way of life of like judging other women, and

25:11

I did it, and that sometimes I still have to check

25:13

myself and be like that, why are you thinking that

25:15

this is unnecessary? You're not a

25:17

judge or jury of any of these. Let people live.

25:20

But it's so hard sometimes when it's ingraining

25:22

you that you have to live by the standard,

25:24

and the only way to compare and to see if you're living

25:26

by that standard is to compare to the other people

25:29

again, because it's your own projection of what you

25:31

should be, and it's so absurd and

25:34

it's very absolutely the patriarch

25:36

to like taking us down, telling us we're

25:38

trying to all fight for second place because we're

25:40

never gonna be number one. That's the white man, right

25:43

right, and so we're all trying to get the sick

25:45

oft spot. So it's just seemingly it's

25:47

such an ugly, ugly idea, but it's really

25:49

hard to get past it. But progress

25:52

is to be able to check yourself. Yea, that

25:55

is ugly. Yeah, and that

25:57

that's that's some really good advice to kind

25:59

of a hey, why am I thinking this? What's

26:01

really going on? And we have even more

26:04

advice for you, but first we

26:06

have one last quick break for work and more sponsor

26:21

and we're back, Thank you sponsor. There

26:25

is a lot of write up right ups.

26:27

There are a lot of right ups excuse me out

26:29

there about women and how

26:31

to support other women, especially in professional settings.

26:34

So if you if this is something that's been on

26:36

your mind or that you would like to work on the

26:38

internet is there for you. But

26:41

we do have some that we want to include. One

26:43

is make making connections with other women

26:46

a priority. And this is something

26:48

that I have started doing, especially

26:50

if I see like a woman in a in

26:53

a conference setting or something like, oh, this woman

26:55

is doing badass stuff. There aren't too many

26:57

other women in here when you go talk to her, Right,

27:00

I got to finally meet the ladies of stuff

27:02

you miss in history class, Tracy and Holly, and

27:04

they've become my favorite people's

27:07

They're they're fantastic, they're

27:09

hilarious, and they're just genuinely kind

27:12

people. And it's way to meet those kinds of people.

27:14

So, yeah, you gotta keep your eye out and be like, I

27:17

know you're gonna be a valuable asset and I

27:19

want to be a part of your life. Yeah, And part

27:21

of making things a priority, and this was a huge

27:23

lesson for me, is making time

27:25

for it and following up on it. Because it's easy

27:27

to get somebody's business card and then just

27:30

move on. But if you if

27:32

you really want to follow up with somebody, then do that.

27:34

Then do that. Be a mentor or

27:36

a sponsor for other women. Um.

27:40

I was a mentor in college and it was so

27:42

so so rewarding, right, it really really was.

27:45

So I I recommend that and being available

27:47

for anybody who is new in

27:49

your office or your profession, whatever might be, and

27:52

like say, hey, if you ever want to sit

27:54

down with some coffee and talk about things,

27:57

I'm available. You're probably my mentor because

27:59

I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Would you like to sit

28:01

down with coffee and think about things? Okay?

28:04

I would rather have about well,

28:08

I know, but perhaps

28:10

in most professional settings, start

28:13

with coffee, okay. Um,

28:16

recommend other women for jobs and amplify

28:19

the voices of other women exactly. Search

28:22

out women you admire, Consume things created

28:24

by women, by things made by women. Yeah.

28:26

We were recently at Dames and Dregs

28:29

and there was an artist alley that was all women

28:32

and my friend top

28:35

she bought a lot of art. Yeah. And that's one

28:37

of the things I liked about that festival. It's

28:39

bringing out as many different women in different

28:41

professions. We had different female DJs,

28:44

which is fantastic. We had those who

28:46

identified as women doing performances,

28:48

which was even one more wonderful.

28:51

Um. We had a lot of the breweries

28:53

had their female employees create

28:55

their own beers to to highlight

28:57

their brewery as well as their skills. And I think

28:59

it's fantastic to have something that you can actually

29:02

just support women, um and support

29:04

their craft. Um.

29:08

Then there's also being a role model for

29:10

girls and women, and some examples

29:12

I saw of this particularly in the business

29:14

sense. Sit in front of sent in front

29:16

at meetings, speak up, encourage other women

29:18

to speak up, Remind people where an idea

29:20

came from. And this was Samantha's idea. Yeah,

29:24

yeah, that's a big one. Awesome organizations

29:26

that foster mentorship for women and girls

29:28

and those who identifies as such, and just a few

29:30

of those would be girls school. She should

29:32

run girls who are at camp smart girls.

29:34

And also to add the Trevor Project Listen

29:37

and trans Women of Color Collective. I think

29:39

it's better just to get a bigger, bigger lists and

29:41

just to throw out and get highlight some

29:44

of those good things that's going on, uh,

29:46

and kind of going off of that, celebrating

29:49

and highlighting the successes and accomplishments

29:51

of other women. Women frequently don't

29:53

get the credit they deserve. And if they voice

29:55

that they think they might be accused

29:57

bragging, they probably actually will be accuster bagging.

30:00

There's there's science behind that, that's not just me

30:02

saying that. Um, And I

30:04

feel like I'm bragging all the time when I talk about stuff

30:06

I've done. And there is even a quote in a newspaper

30:08

somewhere of me saying how uncomfortable

30:10

I was doing the interview because I felt like I was bragging.

30:13

Really, yes, so it's pretty

30:15

pervasive. So having someone kind

30:17

of do it for you or

30:19

help you celebrate or recognize

30:22

those successes is great. If

30:24

you find yourself labeling a woman a shrill,

30:27

bossy, bitchy, again, check yourself,

30:29

ask why, find specific example

30:32

of them doing that if there is one, and ask

30:34

yourself if you would feel the same way if

30:36

it was a man that had done it right. Science

30:39

shows that women not supporting other women can lead to

30:41

negative health outcomes and absentee

30:43

is um at work, So this is a pretty big

30:45

deal. In the words of Metal and Albright,

30:48

there is a special place in hell for women who don't

30:50

help other women. Yeah, and activating

30:52

so many articles about women who don't like women,

30:55

which is what we were talking about earlier, or why

30:57

women compete with women. It's pretty clear the

30:59

level of self hatred there is for

31:01

these types of women. It seems like it's almost like it's

31:03

brainwashing for women. The game is competing

31:06

again, like for second place behind men,

31:08

so it's not that we will ever, so it's kind of like,

31:11

oh, we don't even try to compete with men. We

31:13

just got to compete with women, and that's the only way we can

31:15

get ahead, which is an absurd idea that

31:17

was from way back when. Yeah,

31:19

and a lot of articles I read,

31:22

um, and I know this is going to be controversial,

31:26

bought up Hilly Clinton and how when

31:28

she was first lady her

31:31

approval rating was so high,

31:33

and then when she tried running for president

31:36

so um

31:38

and things like that. And I have had female

31:40

friends tell me that

31:43

they dread working with female bosses

31:45

because they've had terrible experiences with female

31:47

bosses who treated women awfully.

31:50

Right, Um, So that

31:53

that makes my heart hurt. We should be

31:55

helping each other, right, But I think it's just the same,

31:58

Like I've had really bad malby. That's

32:01

the sad part is that level

32:03

of women they still are in the mind

32:05

of I got here because of I

32:08

went out over this other woman, and this

32:10

is not always always the case, but

32:12

I think that's the old school idea and

32:14

it's still pretty prevalent, unfortunately,

32:17

which has to be completely diminished. Yeah,

32:21

And I

32:23

I've also when I first got

32:26

this job, I was the only woman in the department, and

32:28

there was a weird sense of like pride

32:31

about that, like Oh yeah, I'm

32:33

the only one, and now

32:35

I'm older and wiser, and I'm so happy I'm

32:39

the department. But there is also kind

32:41

of that thing feeling like you're quote

32:43

special. Um.

32:46

So, and

32:49

I also just want to say here, I am very, very

32:51

very competitive. This isn't

32:53

against like competition at all, but

32:55

it's for like healthy competition

32:58

and also colever ration and

33:00

lifting at people where they deserve to. Competition

33:04

is not wrong. No, and again the

33:06

healthy competition, as you talked about being

33:08

sportsmanlike, is very very important.

33:11

It is this detriment of like

33:14

all or nothing type of mentality

33:16

of I've got to be this completely and I must destroy

33:19

in order. And I don't think that's everyone. No,

33:22

no, absolutely don't. Um, but I think that's

33:24

the idea that whether it's the patriarch

33:26

saying you should be that way or

33:28

whether it's women being taught this is the only way you

33:31

know that is as a dangerous part. But yeah, there's good

33:34

competition, and that's okay. We have plenty

33:36

of competition when it comes to feminist podcast

33:38

I love it, yes,

33:43

yes, and uh we do

33:45

have some solid podcast to shout

33:47

out. So yeah, that's while we're here. Um,

33:50

with that, we want to shout out to the different people

33:53

in podcasts we adore because I think it's important

33:55

to acknowledge others that have been here

33:57

with us, or others who are continuing on good

33:59

things and just being able to share.

34:02

Hopefully. We did listeners of some other types

34:04

of um women out there, other

34:06

types of some other women out there doing their thing again

34:09

ethnically ambiguous, which is fantastic, our own

34:11

Anna Sharne. She they do some amazing

34:13

shows and have some really great guests. Bectel

34:15

Cast, which any you are a guest host on that

34:18

talking about Marvel right the Avenger.

34:21

See I need this, I didn't. I listened to you um

34:24

of course Savor oh you know, oh

34:26

you know Savor um unladylike,

34:28

which is the former host Caroline and Kristen,

34:30

and then of course our old host Emily who

34:33

was with Bossed Up now and then Bridget

34:35

wonderful Bridget who's working with Afro punk and

34:37

she has some huge projects. I follow her on

34:39

the twitters. She got some big stuff coming and

34:42

love it. Um unpopular with our

34:44

own ease female first ease.

34:46

Stuff you missed in history class which I talked about

34:49

Tracy and Holly are amazing.

34:51

That's what she said. Is another podcast we

34:53

listened to as well as I want to give a shout

34:55

out. Um. When we released our

34:58

podcaster Imposter Syndrome Women

35:00

in the Podcasting World, gender gap, Um,

35:02

we had why Blank Matters podcasts

35:05

shout out to us like, hey, we're here, so we want to acknowledge

35:08

you. Hi guys, thanks, thanks for liking

35:10

us or at least commenting on our stuff.

35:13

Hopefully that translates to it alike.

35:17

Um. But there are so many women

35:20

doing amazing stuff out there. And uh,

35:22

I can say for from

35:25

my own experience now,

35:28

not always, but now I am

35:30

very very fortunate, lucky to have a

35:32

wonderful group of supporting women in my life. And I

35:35

it's so so valuable. It

35:37

is. And and I'm I've talked

35:39

about how old I'm getting right

35:41

now. I felt really old as I'm struggling

35:45

on Mike. UM. But you know, as

35:47

I'm approaching forties, it's coming, y'all, it's

35:49

coming. I'm not gonna tell you how soon. It's

35:51

been amazing to look back at

35:53

how I've collected amazing women in my life have

35:55

supported me even getting here and

35:58

having a voice or even going through the social

36:00

work world to be able to acknowledge

36:02

some of these ugliness and try to push

36:05

forward with some of the goodness. I'm not one of those

36:07

people who have ever been in relationships. That's

36:09

never been a thing that I've been in. I probably have a total

36:11

of three relationships and they didn't

36:13

last very long. So I'm very

36:16

independent. But being independent meant I've

36:18

always had a family, and I chose to have

36:20

a family, and it did a lot

36:22

of it was mainly just strong females that

36:24

I needed to not only push

36:26

me in a way that challenged me,

36:28

but also stopped me when

36:31

it was obvious that I was going overboard,

36:33

you know. And it's really nice to have that kind of

36:35

balance, that kind of trust. And

36:38

it's my family, you know. I don't know if you've

36:40

seen the episodes, if you're just seeing the show

36:42

Pose, and it's the f X

36:44

Pose and it's a fantastic series with

36:47

transgender women in the eighties,

36:49

women of color, and how they create their own family

36:51

after being ostracized um

36:53

from the community, and how beautiful these

36:55

women are they come together and just

36:58

are But that's what we do. We create

37:00

family from these from

37:02

these levels. And I think that's what we've done, what I've

37:04

done with these amazing group of girls.

37:06

Like I do have my family, but these

37:09

these women that I have in my life, they're

37:11

my true family, the ones that I know will

37:13

come to get me, come sit with me, come hug

37:16

me. And it's a beautiful

37:18

thing and it's so important. Like I can't

37:20

emphasize how important it is to have people

37:23

who understand you in

37:26

a different manner. And I think

37:28

for women as well as people who are identifying as

37:30

women, having that female voice

37:33

is fantastic. Absolutely,

37:36

And I know a lot of listeners are

37:38

written in and expressed that

37:41

they don't have that and they really want that, and

37:43

um, it's that's

37:45

hard. And just

37:48

know that it's taken us

37:52

time to find that forties.

37:55

I'm hitting forties, y'all. Yeah, so

37:58

I know it's really difficult and

38:00

it can feel like it's never gonna get any

38:03

better, but just

38:05

keep trying. Um. And there are certainly

38:07

things that you learn about yourself too as you

38:09

get older that maybe you had a friend

38:12

at one time and then it became a toxic

38:14

friendship as you got older. There

38:15

are things like that happen. Um,

38:18

But I

38:21

really hope that you all find this

38:24

that that we're talking about, and that you

38:27

have examples of women supporting

38:29

other women and that you

38:32

can go and do that thing, and if you have,

38:35

we would love to hear them from

38:37

you. You can email us

38:39

at STEPH Media, mom Stuff at i heeart

38:41

media dot com. You can find

38:44

us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,

38:46

or on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told

38:48

You. Thanks as always to our super

38:50

producer Andrew Howard, and thanks

38:53

to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told

38:55

You's a protection of I Heart Ideas. How stuff works

38:57

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