0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

0:24

welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

0:26

my name is Nol. They called me Ben.

0:28

We are joined as always with our super producer

0:31

Ball, Mission Control decand most importantly,

0:34

you are you. You are here and that

0:36

makes this stuff they don't want

0:38

you to know. However, this is

0:40

not an ordinary episode today,

0:43

friends, we are joined by

0:45

the one, the only, Brian Ray.

0:48

Amongst many of his accolades,

0:50

he is the creator and host of On

0:52

Tour, a podcast by Black Barrel

0:55

Media in conjunction with I Heart

0:57

Radio. You might be familiar with the

1:00

It Was Names, and Brian

1:02

has an extensive

1:05

history as a lifelong

1:07

musician and as true

1:10

story guitarist for Sir

1:12

Paul McCartney, amongst again

1:14

many many other works.

1:17

Brian, thank you so much for joining us on

1:19

the show today. Thanks so much. Ben.

1:21

Hey, Matt, Hey, no, Hey, Brian,

1:23

how are you man? I'm good. I'm happy to be

1:25

here. We're happy to have you and it's

1:27

always fun to listen to your own CV rattled

1:30

off at the top of the show. But Ben really,

1:33

um absolutely is not

1:35

kidding when he says, this is among many other

1:37

incredible things that you've done throughout your life.

1:40

Um, you also have just recently

1:42

launched a series of vinyl singles

1:44

through another person that we're all a big fan of,

1:47

Mr Little Steven van Zant of

1:49

Silvio from the Sopranos fan and of course the E

1:51

Street Band. But tell us a little bit about the single

1:53

series that you're doing with with Steven Well.

1:56

I had uh, I had been on

1:59

the Underground Rage and been played

2:02

on that radio station at Serious twenty

2:04

one for years with

2:06

a band that I started called the Bayonets,

2:08

with my buddy and my partner

2:10

in the Bayonets, a guy named Oliver Lieber, who,

2:13

if that sounds familiar, yes, is

2:15

the son of Jerry Lieber of Lieber and

2:17

Stoller, the writing duo

2:20

and production duo that basically built

2:22

rock and roll, you know, Jailhouse Rock

2:24

to stand By Me Too, under

2:27

the Boardwalk Poison Ivy. Anyway,

2:29

so he's my buddy. We got a lot

2:31

of play. We were discovered by Marine

2:34

van Zante, Little Steven's

2:36

lovely wife one night, upon

2:39

the release of our first single

2:41

called Sucker for Love, Well, she went and

2:43

played it for Stephen and

2:45

he reached out to us the next day and said,

2:48

I love this. Who are you? Can

2:50

I get some more of it? Do you mind if

2:52

I do an edit? You can use the edit

2:55

or not. I'm gonna play on the radio anyway.

2:57

And that started a long, long

2:59

relationship that's just gotten better and

3:01

better over the years and it's awesome.

3:03

Finally, when the Bayonets wrapped up, little

3:06

Stephen came to me and said, uh,

3:08

would you be interested in a singles deal with

3:10

my label, Wicked Cool Records? And

3:12

I said, of course I would, And here

3:15

I am five singles later and

3:17

ready to do five more. You're

3:19

a busy, busy man, sir, which

3:23

I think is something that uh

3:25

we were made us even more excited

3:28

to speak with you today because

3:31

in a very real way, your

3:34

career is one that

3:36

millions of people dream of

3:39

having or even you know, and this is not

3:41

hyperbolic. There are people who dream

3:43

of having, you know, one gig like

3:45

the like the many that you have. And

3:48

when we were we were researching

3:50

this episode, of course, people have read the

3:52

title We're talking a little

3:54

bit about Beatles conspiracies,

3:57

which we all thoroughly enjoy. But when we were

3:59

researched this episode, I have to be honest,

4:02

I kept thinking like, is there a way

4:04

that we could get Brian to tell us some of those

4:06

behind the scenes war stories, because

4:09

how many tours have you been on at this point?

4:11

Can you count them that at all? God,

4:13

it's incalculable. Um well,

4:16

I started straight out of high school and that's a

4:18

long time ago, so uh, you

4:21

know I started out. My very first

4:23

gigs were with Bobby Boris

4:25

Pickett and the crypt Kicker five doing

4:27

the Monster Mash at six

4:29

Flags over Texas and stuff like that,

4:32

so, um you know, I was

4:34

seventeen men And that led into

4:37

UH being introduced to Edda

4:39

James by a guy named Phil Kaufman,

4:42

who has the main

4:46

UH character in one of the most

4:48

outlandish rock and roll stories

4:50

of all time, involving Graham

4:52

Parsons. Anyway, that's a story

4:55

for a whole another podcast. Anyway,

4:58

Phil Kaufman was also

5:00

Edda James's UH road

5:02

manager, introduced me to her, and that led

5:05

to fifteen years touring with

5:07

Edda James, opening for the Rolling

5:09

Stones and many other things, and

5:12

that led to twenty more years of

5:14

working with her in the studio and such. So

5:16

that's just one of the many things that I

5:19

feel really lucky enough to have stumbled

5:22

into somehow. Wow. So,

5:25

Okay, I want to I want to pivot

5:27

this a little bit. Brand.

5:29

I want to talk to you kind of on a high

5:31

level about the concepts

5:34

of chance versus versus

5:36

fate, and I want to do it

5:38

via one word. That one

5:40

word is freedom. So when

5:42

I think about, um,

5:44

at least all the events that I've read about and

5:47

heard about in your life thus far, and

5:50

you think about all the events in the world that

5:52

have occurred since you've been alive, Um,

5:54

it really boggles my mind when I think about

5:56

what brought you to New Orleans

5:59

in February of two thousand two,

6:02

and UM, I just

6:04

really want to know what it was like for you

6:07

regarding chance versus freedom to

6:10

be at the Super Bowl with

6:12

Paul playing a song called Freedom

6:14

at that moment in history. Yeah,

6:17

so interesting. I mean

6:19

this was back before I had

6:22

a cell phone, if I remember correctly,

6:24

and I still had, uh,

6:26

you know, a plug in what cordless

6:30

phone with voicemail,

6:33

But that day I happened to pick

6:35

up the phone on a Monday

6:37

when I got a call from David Kahn,

6:40

the great producer and arranger

6:43

who is associated with Paul McCartney

6:45

for years and years and still

6:48

will sometimes pop in and out.

6:50

Well. David Kahn said, I

6:52

got your phone number from ab Lear Boreal

6:55

Jr. We're putting together a

6:57

band to go do one song

7:00

in advance of the super Bowl two thousand

7:02

two, and we're looking for

7:05

guitar player who plays a bit of base.

7:07

Would you be up for coming in meeting

7:09

with me? I see if you might

7:11

be the right guy for that, and I said hell

7:14

yeah. He says, can you be here in a half hour? And

7:17

I said no, but I can be there in

7:19

an hour. And the truth is I could have

7:21

been there in a half hour, but I was literally shaking

7:23

now and I didn't want to

7:25

show up like drooling, So I thought

7:27

I would take just a half hour to breathe

7:30

a little bit, get my act together a

7:32

little bit, because this was all very

7:34

exciting. Now. Flip back a couple

7:36

of weeks. I had told a but my birthday

7:38

party that I would love a shot at That was

7:40

what I said when he talked about future

7:43

gigs, possible gigs with Paul. So

7:47

obviously he had given my name to David Kahn.

7:49

And now there I was with David Kahn

7:51

over at Henson Studios, talking

7:54

to David Kahn, picking

7:56

up a Hoffner base, picking

7:58

up a telecaster, and just talking

8:00

about music. It wasn't a high

8:02

pressure, uh you know, audition

8:05

or something. It was more just kind

8:07

of a get to know your thing, just he and I and

8:10

UH. At the end of about an hour, he said, well,

8:13

you know, I've had a really good time. Man,

8:15

I have a good feeling about this. There

8:17

are other people they're looking at I know that,

8:19

but you know, I'm gonna put your name forward.

8:22

And um, I got a call the

8:24

next day saying can you be on a plane

8:27

Wednesday to come

8:29

to New Orleans to play with Paul McCartney

8:31

at the Super Bowl. And I was like, hell, yeah,

8:34

you know. So, I mean it is

8:37

um something, It is chance,

8:39

and it is preparedness because if not for

8:42

the many years with Edna James and

8:44

Laura Brannigan and Johnny Halliday

8:47

and million from without all of those

8:49

things, maybe I'm not the right guy

8:51

for Paul. So it's chance, it's

8:54

opportunity. But it's also preparation,

8:57

but it's also being a kid

9:00

who embraced freedom

9:02

to do what the hell I wanted. So if

9:04

that kind of helps wrap it up, I've

9:06

never thought about it that way, but yeah,

9:08

I was lucky to have parents who didn't

9:10

force me to do like go be a policeman.

9:14

Yeah, I had the freedom to do what

9:16

the hell I wanted, and I knew

9:18

from the age of three that's what I wanted. Wow,

9:21

And this this is something that

9:23

I think is inspiring for a lot

9:26

of the people in the audience today to hear

9:28

because you know, Brian, we have a

9:31

lot of listeners who are

9:33

on on the younger side, you know,

9:35

in pursuing music, and this

9:38

is a secret adults don't always admit

9:41

to high schoolers and younger

9:43

people. That's a terrifying

9:45

time, you know what I mean. And there's a lot of

9:47

external pressures. So I think it's

9:49

powerful, uh for us

9:51

to be able to share this story

9:54

of you being being

9:56

capable of having your vision

9:59

and pursue we and I completely agree

10:01

with with your statement that um

10:04

chance does exist, but

10:07

a chance and preparedness

10:09

are what I think creates the amalgamation

10:12

we recognize as opportunity. And

10:14

with this in mind, I have to I

10:17

have to ask what was your

10:19

what was your first impression? Like

10:22

we're meeting Sir Paul McCartney

10:24

for the first time. Things have happened so

10:26

quickly. Right, We've got this call. Can you be

10:29

here in thirty minutes to get on this

10:31

plane Wednesday? It's a movie montage

10:33

and now here you are, well,

10:37

you know, Uh, suffice it to say,

10:39

I was really nervous. If I was

10:41

nervous to meet David Kahn. Okay,

10:44

this is like times a hundred. Now I'm in

10:46

New Orleans. Now it's the day

10:48

of the evening that we're going to have a dinner

10:51

together in this big, beautiful ballroom

10:53

and a certain old hotel. And

10:56

uh, you know, I am freaking

10:58

out now, And because you

11:00

know, I think that that's a generational

11:02

thing, like people of my age were

11:05

there. I was sitting on the floor when the

11:07

Beatles you know, arrived

11:09

on as Sullivan Show. You know, for

11:11

us in America, that was our first

11:14

visual take now and England,

11:16

of course, they'd been seeing them on

11:18

all sorts of shows and in

11:20

clubs and stuff like that since well sixty

11:23

two. For us, it all happened

11:25

at once. There are two singles out already,

11:27

and here they are. And

11:29

so for me, it's a big deal when

11:32

you know he's gonna walk into the room and

11:34

you're gonna turn around and meet him. So I was

11:36

out of my mind. I thought, Okay, I'm

11:39

just gonna walk around the French Quarter for about

11:41

three hours, see if I can just like

11:43

spill off some of this extra spark

11:46

that's coming off of me right now. And

11:49

that's what I did. I walked around the French

11:51

Quarter and you know, did

11:54

a little tourism and stuff like that. Did

11:56

it get rid of my nerves? No? It

11:58

didn't. But uh, there I was.

12:01

It was about seven thirty or eight, and

12:03

we're all in this ballroom. He's not there

12:05

yet. There's a bar set up and a big, beautiful

12:07

table, about seventeen

12:09

of us. I've now met some of his inner circle,

12:12

you know, some of the you know, direct

12:14

production staff and stuff like that, but a

12:17

very cool, small group. Uh.

12:20

And I'm standing there having a cocktail

12:22

and the lights are low, and it's this big sort of Rococo

12:25

beautiful room with long curtains and

12:28

lush setting, and

12:30

and suddenly everyone's energy

12:32

just changes and it gets very quiet

12:34

in there, and I say, he's just entered the

12:36

room, and my back is to the door, you know,

12:39

like I didn't want to like have my jaw

12:41

dropped on the ground or something weird. But anyway,

12:44

so yeah, I'm a bit of a fan, what

12:46

can I say? And so finally

12:48

he makes his way around and I've

12:50

turned around and

12:52

and uh, he walks and he goes, you must

12:54

be Brian. He puts out his hand, he goes, I'm

12:56

poll and uh. You know, that was

12:59

the beginning of what's now twenty

13:01

years, you know, and in the blink

13:03

of an eye. Uh. Anyway,

13:06

he made me feel very comfortable. He was very

13:08

nice and very warm. He was

13:10

with his then wife, Heather, and we

13:12

sat down to have a beautiful

13:15

dinner for us, and you know, it

13:17

was a really nice way to start. You know. It's

13:19

it's it's so interesting hearing you describe

13:21

this from the perspective of someone who, like

13:24

all of us, I think it's huge Beatles fan,

13:26

You in particular, experienced it when it

13:28

was just like happening at its height. Yeah,

13:30

I actually kind of so weird. I'm a strange

13:33

person. I tend to put things off that too.

13:35

Many people are really really into. So

13:37

I sort of slept on the Beatles for quite

13:39

a while and then all of a sudden it

13:41

just hit me and I was just you know, all in um.

13:44

But the thing is about

13:46

the Beatles. Part of what I just said is

13:48

they were just so they hit the zeitgeist

13:51

and kind of caught people's imaginations in

13:53

a very you know, popular music

13:56

kind of way. Obviously, when they first arrived, they were

13:58

more kind of a traditional pop group and

14:00

you know, huge legions of fans freaking out airports

14:03

and they arrived, and then of course they went into

14:05

a more kind of mystical period where

14:07

they started experimenting with sound

14:09

and creating the kind of you know, um

14:12

uh should the standards really for what you

14:14

know, multitrack production is today

14:17

and some of the best and coolest and weirdest

14:19

sounding records I think ever made. And because

14:21

of that and that intersection of this like clean

14:24

cut kind of like pop group then

14:26

becoming this much more kind of

14:28

refined and out there and you know, um,

14:31

very experimental different band

14:34

in such a short period of time. It makes sense

14:36

to me that you know, so many

14:38

things are said, there's so many legends

14:40

and lore kind of wrapped up in all this because they were

14:42

doing so much for the first time. Uh.

14:44

And one of those things, if you guys don't mind

14:47

that I'd love to just jump into, is

14:49

the idea of recording things backwards. So

14:51

it's like, you know, there have there's been much

14:53

made of the idea of backwards

14:56

masking, and you know, um,

14:58

congressional committees playing records backwards

15:01

and saying that there's satanic messages

15:03

or you know, particularly evangelical types

15:05

that are you know, I mean, there's the devil is in

15:07

this Beach Boys single or whatever. Um.

15:10

From the perspective of the Beatles and them

15:13

talking about it was just kind of them having a bit

15:15

of fun and trying some interesting

15:17

things out in terms of recording techniques, and they thought

15:19

it sounded cool. But the

15:21

idea of hiding messages

15:24

in records still kind of sticks around

15:26

today. UM. I just kind of wanted to, I don't

15:28

know, have a little bit of a brief chat about backwards

15:31

masking and and then where you stand on

15:33

that and uh, and particularly we'll get

15:35

into some you know, examples within the Beatles catalog.

15:38

I would like to answer that in reverse. Let

15:45

me play the record back resort. Just he's

15:48

into it. He says, he's into it, and we can move and

15:50

move forward. Okay, So well, I mean,

15:52

you know, the truth is is what

15:54

I know is the Beatles began

15:56

to take a little bit more of a

15:59

front seat approach to their own

16:02

sonic uh palette,

16:04

you know. And they had gone from being a

16:07

four piece rock band, pop band

16:09

to now getting into being invited

16:12

into the studio by George

16:14

Sir George Martin and Jeff Emrick.

16:17

Uh. For most of the time they were

16:19

being invited in, and as soon as they did, all bets

16:21

were off. You'd see their hands up on the board

16:23

and they'd get involved in the mixes. And

16:26

then they said, well, what would happen if we

16:28

recorded the drums really

16:30

fast and then played them back

16:33

slower, and then wouldn't

16:35

they sound bigger? And we could do

16:37

that with a piano or guitar. So

16:39

they do a lot of sort of double speed

16:42

recording or half speed recording

16:44

to get the opposite effect, and

16:46

somewhere along the line, uh,

16:49

you know, you you get things like uh

16:52

uh that the time where for

16:55

tomorrow never knows? Of course, Famously,

16:58

one of their most psychedelic and indulgent

17:01

studio masterpieces where they

17:04

literally went into tape

17:07

library and found all these sort

17:09

of sort of like calliope

17:12

bits, and then Paul

17:14

would go record a guitar part

17:16

really slow and then play it back super

17:18

fast, and then chop it up and

17:21

put it into this recording and

17:23

tomorrow never knows that John Lennon

17:26

mostly UH composition,

17:28

but Paul McCartney and George Martin

17:30

and the whole band joining in

17:32

for production UH

17:35

featured what is now known as

17:37

the very first drum loop because

17:41

that's just a couple of bars of ringo

17:43

played over and over and over again.

17:45

Fascinating. Well, now that's

17:47

done all the time

17:50

in popular music and rap music

17:52

and and hip hop. Looping

17:55

is the thing you do. Anyway, that is

17:57

one of the first known examples of that.

18:00

UM and the backward masking very

18:02

interesting stuff. The backward recording,

18:05

Well, the Beatles did do it

18:07

here and there. UM.

18:09

Whether there are actual hidden

18:12

messages in there, that's

18:14

uh for others to say, but

18:17

it was interesting, Like I

18:19

think it was Tipper Gore al Gore's

18:22

wife came to Congress

18:24

to, you know, decry

18:26

that this new backward

18:28

satanic masking it was going you

18:31

know, and uh man, oh man, that

18:33

was like a funny time but you know,

18:35

yeah, I mean it was interesting. I think for

18:37

the people who did it initially it

18:40

was just something weird and new to do.

18:43

Later, as soon as Tipper said that, then everyone

18:45

did start putting in backwards messages

18:49

as people against her own goals

18:52

by getting people riled about it, like what this

18:54

lady is telling me I can't do this, Well, I'm definitely gonna

18:56

do a ton of this um and

18:59

exactly like no, exactly, but

19:02

just to stay on backward masking, for one, you

19:04

can't get away that easily. Brian Ray

19:06

for your money. Is it Cranberry

19:09

Sauce or I Buried Paul? Or

19:11

turn me on dead Man? Or no?

19:15

Is that what it is? We'll turn on audio

19:17

roar shot. At that point people tend

19:19

to hear what they're expecting. They'll hear. That's exactly

19:22

I think what Brian's getting at in a lot of ways

19:24

to um. But turn me on dead Man was the

19:26

one from the White album on Revolution number nine,

19:28

UM where folks were thinking that was a reference

19:31

to probably the biggest Beatles

19:34

conspiracy there is, which is the

19:36

idea that Paul was you know

19:38

was killed in a car accident and

19:40

then replaced by a doppelganger for the duration

19:43

of his life. I do,

19:46

I do want to bring this to you, Brian. There is one

19:48

one part of backwards masking recording

19:51

that Paul McCartney talks about that I thought

19:53

was pretty interesting and gave

19:56

us a little bit of a look into his personality

19:58

because uh, unlike

20:01

you, uh, most people have not met

20:03

Paul McCartney and worked with him,

20:05

so so we're kind

20:07

of gleaning his personality from these

20:09

interviews, from these autobiographical

20:12

works, and this stood out to me.

20:15

Uh, He's in this interview

20:17

a while back, and he

20:20

seems pretty game to kind of play

20:22

with the fans who are getting a little

20:24

maybe a little off the off kilter there,

20:26

and he admits, he says, oh,

20:29

yeah, we did add backwards

20:31

recording backwards masking to Free

20:35

as a Bird, and we did

20:37

it because we thought it was hilarious

20:40

and we give everybody, all the all

20:42

the nutty fans, uh something to do.

20:45

Does that? Does he have that kind of personality

20:47

like is that the kind of Frankie would pull?

20:50

Yes. Absolutely, He's

20:52

a man of great humor and

20:55

he's a very hard working man

20:57

and an exacting man, and

21:00

as he should be, and he

21:02

has very strong ideas that are wonderful

21:04

to explore, but

21:07

he also just wants to have a laugh. Also,

21:09

Paul isn't one of those people that's behind

21:12

some you know, some big

21:14

gold gate in a gilded cage.

21:17

He's He's like a human who walks

21:19

around and goes to dinner and demands

21:22

as normal a life as he can possibly

21:24

get. So he is in touch with what

21:26

fans have thought and believe, and

21:28

I'm sure he gets out a kick out of it. So I

21:30

find it funny that he would do that, uh,

21:33

you know, deliberately, just to play

21:35

with the fans and have a go, you know, have

21:38

a laugh. Well, Paul

21:40

is for a word from our sponsors,

21:42

then return with more from Brian Ray

21:51

and we're back. You know, I really

21:54

appreciate you pointing out one

21:56

of those one of those struggles that people

21:58

after at a certain thresh hold of prominence

22:01

and celebrity always encounter, which

22:03

is just a let me not

22:05

have to be on for for a

22:07

second, you know, let me go get dinner, right,

22:10

and especially if you have so many adoring

22:12

fans, Uh, this can be a struggle

22:15

and I this makes me want to

22:17

pivot to something that I'm sure, um,

22:20

I'm sure has affected Paul in many

22:22

ways and has affected a lot of people like you worked

22:25

closely with him. It's what Nol just mentioned,

22:27

which is the big daddy of all the

22:29

Beatles conspiracies, the idea

22:32

that Paul McCartney is somehow

22:34

not Paul McCartney as well said, uh

22:36

that the the original Paul McCartney

22:39

was killed in a

22:41

car crash, and then there's

22:43

this whole story about how there was

22:46

a lookalike contest, because that's

22:48

how you keep a secret. Um have

22:50

you Have you ever talked to him about

22:52

this? I have no idea how you would bring that up

22:54

in conversation. Yeah,

22:56

Paul, are you dead? I

23:01

wouldn't tell you to say

23:03

to you know, when this is all wrapped up,

23:06

whenever that is that. Uh.

23:08

Finally he would turn to me and say, Brian,

23:11

I just want you to know that my real name

23:13

is Randall. I'm

23:16

not, in fact Paul McCartney.

23:18

Oh my god. You know what anyway,

23:21

Uh, you know it's uh

23:24

to be the subject

23:26

of so many fantastical

23:29

sort of conspiracy is a real honor.

23:32

That just means that people are so

23:34

into you that they want to embellish

23:37

your I guess mostly eight

23:39

year career and keep it

23:41

going, keep it going today.

23:44

You know, I think that's a way for people

23:46

to keep the Beatles alive.

23:48

And uh, it's funny that they

23:51

would choose to say one of them is dead by

23:53

keeping him alive. But you

23:56

know, anyway, Yeah, I mean,

23:58

let's get into it. Tell me what the

24:01

data is, give me, give me some of the evidence,

24:03

and let's

24:05

go. Man, hit it all right. Yeah,

24:08

so here are the

24:10

facts. The story of the

24:13

conspiracy theory that Paul McCartney

24:15

dies really reaches the

24:18

mainstream way back

24:20

in October twelfth of nineteen sixty

24:22

nine. There is a DJ

24:25

named Russ GiB He's hosting a show

24:27

on w K and R sixty nine.

24:29

Everybody loves the Beatles, everybody knows

24:31

who they are, and he gets

24:34

you know, these are like this is the heyday of call

24:36

in radio, right, So, uh, someone,

24:38

a mysterious caller reaches

24:40

out to us on air and

24:42

and it's like, you need to put on

24:45

Beatles wide album Spin

24:48

number nine, number nine intro from

24:50

Revolution nine backwards,

24:52

and the like hangs up like big, I've

24:54

already said too much vibes, and

24:57

so you know, it gives a DJ. He's game

24:59

for it. He placed it on the air, and

25:01

he is the one who claims, you

25:04

know, I hear something and it sounds

25:06

to me like they're saying, turn me on,

25:09

dead man. And then from

25:12

that moment the story spreads

25:15

like wildfire. Uh. And

25:17

there's there's one there's one hilarious

25:19

quote from Paul himself

25:22

about this where he said, I'm

25:25

alive and well and

25:27

I'm concerned about the rumors of my death.

25:30

But if I were dead, I would be the

25:32

last person to know. Excellent

25:36

answer. Oh my god. It

25:38

reminds me. I know you mentioned this before, Ben

25:40

off air. It reminds me a lot of the Mark

25:43

Twain quote, the rumors of my death

25:45

have been greatly exaggerated, you

25:47

know, to the idea to be able to comment

25:49

on your own death is delightful and ironic.

25:52

And it sounds like he took it in stride. But I

25:54

mean, there were like headlines about this. This wasn't

25:56

just some fringe e thing. I mean,

25:58

clearly you know it is in many ways, but it

26:01

made the news. Right. Are you saying

26:03

that newspapers needs

26:06

stories to sell more newspapers.

26:10

Is it normal news enough? Apparently

26:13

not. But anyway, and back then,

26:15

even back then, we've got a headline from the World

26:17

News Daily Report that says former

26:20

Beatle Ringo star claims the real Paul McCartney

26:22

died in nineteen sixty six and was replaced by

26:24

a lookalike. When when did this

26:26

happen? Well, that that came out in the mid too,

26:29

I know for sure, for sure, but it did

26:31

still make the news at the time. But what is the deal

26:33

with that? I don't even remember? Call this happenings

26:36

like a very disreputable This sounds like a very

26:38

disreputable publication too, by the way,

26:40

Yeah, but it's sold papers,

26:43

it's sold clicks,

26:46

I guess, and online advertising, I

26:48

suppose the same same thing. But

26:51

this is the mid two thousand teens

26:53

and like around I believe,

26:56

and this got

26:58

published in a bunch of other places. Is

27:00

so people picked up that story. Oh my god, Ringo

27:02

star talked to this thing called the Hollywood

27:05

Inquisitor and spilled the beans about

27:07

all this stuff. Holy crap. What

27:09

and even I you know, in

27:12

in preparing for this episode reading

27:14

the article, my blood gets

27:17

gets a little excited. I'm like Oh my god, Ringos

27:19

like telling the deep dark

27:21

secret. And the reason why it's compelling

27:23

is because there's so many details. It's

27:26

like any good yarn that's been spun.

27:28

These details are so fine

27:31

and just they're perfect for

27:34

for making you feel like something, like

27:36

something is real. Um.

27:38

I hate to even burst the bubble immediately,

27:40

but it turns out this

27:43

publication is a

27:45

satirical news site, very

27:47

much like The Onion, and and it

27:49

says it on on their website.

27:51

Yeah, but who's going to click to the about section?

27:54

Yeah, no time for that. We just heard from Ringo.

27:58

It's the last word. I remember

28:00

when those rumors came out. It was the late

28:02

sixties and uh no,

28:04

when the rumors came out about saying

28:07

it had happened in sixty six, I remember

28:09

that, and uh

28:11

it's very interesting. I remember somebody

28:13

engaging me on one of my

28:16

Facebook pages about it, and he was dead

28:18

serious about it, and I just thought, oh

28:20

my god, this guy, there's no talking to him

28:22

about it, and so I think I just

28:25

muted him or something like that, because

28:27

I mean, what are you gonna say? Um

28:29

No, I guarantee you that that's

28:31

Paul McCartney. I've been working with for twenty

28:34

years, and not Randall or

28:37

Billy Shears.

28:41

I thought Billy Shears was Ringoes alter

28:43

ego because he sings the he sings

28:45

the Little Help with my Friends, and they kind of

28:47

introduced him as Billy Shears. Yeah, the

28:50

idea behind that album was pretty

28:52

brilliant. I think Paul talks about that

28:55

being his idea that this

28:58

Sergan Pepper's Onnely Heart band

29:00

would give them freedom to be someone

29:03

other than the Beatles everyone had come to know,

29:05

and thereby giving him there

29:07

there's that word again, the freedom to

29:11

do something like, um,

29:13

you know, good morning, or

29:16

like uh, little help from my friends

29:18

or you know, day in the

29:20

life, just to really stretch out

29:22

a little farther than they ever had before in

29:25

production and in sort

29:27

of the palette, you know, the production

29:29

palette of sounds, you know, they

29:32

could be this other band. Well yeah,

29:34

and plus Billy Shears had to learn how to play all of

29:36

Paul McCartney's songs anyway, So

29:39

okay, okay, Well, no

29:41

one said the people involved into

29:43

have a work ethic right where. That's that's

29:45

day one stuff. In earlier research,

29:48

we're looking into this and um,

29:50

I was trying ardently to find

29:53

some things that might exist in the world

29:56

of conspiracy that might have a

29:58

little bit of sand So just

30:00

just the shout out one that I also don't think it's

30:02

true. There there's a theory circulating

30:05

and it's an older theory, um that had

30:07

to had to have started on the internet, man,

30:10

where someone says, no, Paul McCartney

30:12

is alive. It's all the other Beatles who

30:14

have died and been replaced. That's what they

30:16

don't want you to know. And I could like see

30:19

somebody on Facebook just deciding

30:21

that in response. So I went

30:24

through a lot of a lot of these

30:26

ideas and one that I found

30:28

intriguing and one that I think

30:30

you are probably one of the best people to

30:33

explore this idea with us is the

30:36

following how likely

30:39

is it, how likely or unlikely is it that

30:41

the Beatles somehow still have unreleased

30:44

music? And I'm asking this because, um,

30:47

it's something that seems to come up,

30:50

not just more than once, but come up kind of cyclically,

30:52

like every so often there will be someone

30:55

who makes a claim that there's you know, there's

30:57

some tape lost somewhere

30:59

that might be recovered or it's being held in secret,

31:02

and we know from the creative process

31:04

of of all musicians that

31:06

you can end up with a lot of things that are you

31:09

know, you feel like maybe they're but

31:11

they're not ready yet to release. So

31:14

to me, it seems plausible that maybe

31:17

an individual in a group

31:19

might have some musical projects of their own

31:21

that they they've kept to themselves.

31:24

But what do you think. Have you heard people tell

31:26

like like that guy on Facebook, if you heard

31:28

people reach out to you and say, no, man,

31:30

tell me the truth, where's the rest of the Beatles

31:32

music? Yeah? Well that is really intriguing

31:35

because, to be honest with you,

31:38

we know a lot. Having been around Paul

31:40

for almost twenty years now, he's he's very

31:43

chill and very forthcoming

31:45

with a lot of stuff. Uh.

31:47

But that is one thing that if it were true

31:49

and there were some deals tracks hidden,

31:52

he would probably keep that close

31:54

to his vest because that's a very important

31:57

property. And there are

31:59

bill in people who would like to know about

32:01

that, you know, and so that is something

32:04

he might, if it were true, might not

32:06

tell us. So I can't give you a definitive answer,

32:08

but it is plausible that it

32:10

could be more unreleased

32:13

Beetles music. Who knows so Brian, are you

32:15

telling me that you've never played the

32:17

songs left is Right and Right is Wrong?

32:19

Or Colliding Circles or deck chair,

32:22

the famous deck chair or pink

32:24

Litmus paper shirt. These these songs

32:26

are not familiar to you, not

32:30

yet played those. I'm

32:32

sure they'll make the set list should

32:35

we tour again after the pandemic?

32:37

Should they crack open the vaults, because

32:39

those are actually some names that are thrown around

32:41

as being potential as secret hidden

32:44

Beatles songs. I'm ready for all.

32:46

The Litmus paper shirt, that's fantastic.

32:49

What was it called again? To what shirt? Pink

32:52

Litmus paper shirt? Pink Litmus

32:54

paper shirt, Colliding circles,

32:56

left is Right and right is wrong? It's like an allegory

32:59

deck chair, which sounds like the

33:01

most like absolutely compelling

33:03

song ever song about a deck chair. But if anyone

33:06

could do it, it was the Beatles could do a compelling

33:08

chair, or leave it off an

33:11

album because it just isn't very good.

33:14

Yes, well that's the what's interesting

33:16

about that that track list is

33:18

for a long time it was presented

33:20

as sort of a a smoking gun.

33:23

But I believe what happened is

33:25

that as the story took off, the

33:28

person responsible for saying

33:30

these the person responsible for saying

33:33

these tracks existed, came out

33:35

later and said, I made those up. That

33:37

was a hoax. I did that, And then

33:40

the people who believed him

33:42

originally now decided he

33:44

was lying and they were like, I

33:47

don't know, Big Beetle got to you, man, there's

33:49

something that's it's amazing. I mean

33:51

it's there's something about human nature which

33:53

I think we could all take away from

33:56

what's gone on for the last year or so,

33:58

not to get political, human

34:01

nature. We do want to believe

34:03

in some unseen,

34:06

unknowable truth that

34:08

really you can find if you

34:10

go out and do your own research.

34:14

That was the whole thing that a lot of the conspiracy

34:16

theater. Conspiracy theater,

34:18

I like that we

34:21

are here. That's kind of where we are. Come on, that's

34:23

what we are anyway. Uh,

34:26

that's where I think a lot of conspiracy

34:28

theories they can, you

34:31

know, live on and on and on because

34:33

they're really are asking

34:35

questions and people are inquisitive

34:37

and they want to know, and this makes

34:39

them feel like they're doing their own research.

34:42

You know. Yeah, it's funny

34:44

you mentioned that because it's been coming up a lot in

34:46

some of our recent episodes, especially

34:48

about events of the past few years.

34:51

Bryan, there's something just fundamentally

34:54

more comforting about the idea

34:56

of an infallible, secret superpower,

35:00

even if they're evil. That's more comforting than

35:03

the concept of the chaotic, uncaring

35:05

universe. No one's in charge, no

35:08

one's at the driver's wheel. So I think you nailed

35:10

it. It's interesting, Yeah, it's It's not

35:12

that different than people, um

35:14

sort of finding comfort in religion. You

35:16

know, it is a sort of um,

35:19

bespoke religion. You can make

35:21

up your own set of guardrails,

35:23

facts that fit you, that you're

35:25

happy with, that makes you feel good that

35:28

you did your research. I don't know's it's cool whatever

35:31

makes us tick. Yeah, you

35:33

know. So, speaking

35:35

of doing our research, I'm gonna put you in the hot seat

35:37

now right ready for this. Eighteen

35:41

years after you're initial

35:44

performance with Sir Paul, you sat down

35:47

for an interview with the Musicians Hall of Fame

35:49

and Museum. Looking looking

35:51

at a transcript here, let's see at twenty

35:54

two minutes and thirty seconds, Brian,

35:56

you say, quote, you

35:59

can imagine and being Paul McCartney since

36:01

birth, and being famous since you were fifteen.

36:04

I mean, wow, that's

36:06

a lot to carry around here.

36:08

It comes, but I think

36:11

he is the best Paul McCartney in

36:13

the world. Yes, I'll go on

36:15

record as saying that you referred

36:18

to him as the best Paul McCartney

36:20

in the world. M Brian,

36:23

did they get to you giving oxygen

36:26

to the idea that he isn't the

36:28

only Paul I

36:30

I What I'm really going for is

36:32

is that you know it's it's tempting

36:35

and understandable to be trapped

36:37

by that level of fame, a level

36:39

of fame that I'll never know, and be honest

36:42

with you, I'm fine with that. I don't

36:44

need to be that famous, um,

36:47

But to be trapped by it is

36:49

something altogether different. And I think

36:52

that the two

36:54

Beatles that are no longer with us, you know, John

36:57

and George, I think that they had

36:59

a different relay ship with that level

37:01

of fame. I think that George uh

37:03

was more reclusive, UM,

37:06

and I think John came

37:09

in and out of reclusive behavior.

37:12

But Paul just won't do that, you know,

37:14

UM, And you

37:16

know it's understandable. So when I'm saying

37:18

he's the best Paul, he's the best

37:21

possible Uh,

37:23

you know, I've got to be very careful

37:25

here. They are conspiratorcises that are gonna think

37:27

I'm I'm sidestepping this. He

37:31

is the best version of a guy who's been famous

37:33

that you could possibly be. Now,

37:36

that makes perfect sense. And he seems like a

37:38

lovely dude all around, very warm

37:40

and welcoming. And I can't imagine, you

37:42

know, having that level of fame and not turning

37:45

into some sort of megalomaniacal

37:47

monster. He clearly he has not done that. He

37:49

has continued to grow gracefully,

37:51

and he also obviously still rips as

37:54

a live performer. And his new

37:56

record ain't bad either. Let me tell you the

37:58

one that just came out. I think it's really cool. And

38:01

then then he's also clearly into working

38:03

with up and coming, you know, kind

38:05

of indie artists, as he put out the whole Companion

38:07

record that's got like St. Vincent and

38:10

back and not that they're up and coming, but it has

38:12

Phoebe Bridgers is on one of the tracks. It's like

38:14

reimagining, So he seems to really be He didn't

38:16

have to do that, right, That's

38:19

something he obviously cared enough to do to

38:21

make the time to do this companion

38:24

record, and uh, he doesn't have to make

38:26

records anymore, for he doesn't want to. But he he made

38:28

one all by himself with you know, his own

38:30

home studio and produced it. And I just think that's super

38:32

cool and I very much respect that. And

38:35

we'll pause for a quick word from our sponsors,

38:37

then return with more from Brian Ray

38:46

and we've returned. Okay, so

38:48

I think we can put paul Is dead to bed.

38:50

He he I think he's not dead. Guys, what do you

38:52

think? I don't know any outstanding

38:54

questions here, so I

38:57

I appreciate you, uh bringing

38:59

us back to that. No. Um, I think

39:01

it's it's interesting

39:03

because we did an examination of that a

39:05

number of years back, and we did it primarily

39:08

because because of the resilience

39:11

of this concept, even though it is very

39:13

easily disproven. There

39:16

was something that I wanted to explore

39:18

on a on a larger level with you, Brian, which

39:21

I think we were kind of touching

39:23

on already, which is, you

39:25

know, you said something really beautiful just

39:28

a few minutes ago, and it's something that I

39:30

have not heard before when you said these

39:32

in a way, these conspiracies are

39:36

being created by people who want to

39:38

keep something they love alive. And that

39:40

is one of and I'm not being I'm

39:42

not exaggerated blowing smoke here. That is

39:44

one of the most optimistic, beautiful

39:47

takes I've ever heard on these

39:50

um on these types of theories,

39:52

because what we're talking about is something,

39:55

you know, that can really wear on

39:57

a person's mental well being,

40:00

maybe even on their soul, when you

40:02

know, fame at a certain level becomes

40:05

a cage. And what

40:07

what I have to ask is, if

40:09

you look at the world conspiracies, you know, there's

40:12

some about actors right there, there are plenty

40:14

about politicians, but out

40:17

of the majority of celebrity

40:20

conspiracy theories, they seem

40:22

to center like specifically on

40:25

musicians pretty often. Why

40:28

why would you say that is or have

40:30

you noticed that what what do you think makes

40:33

people feel so compelled

40:35

to create conspiracies around musicians

40:37

specifically? Interesting? I

40:39

think that one of the components of that might

40:42

just be that at the time

40:44

when the Beatles came into fame

40:46

and were in everybody's living

40:49

rooms and on everyone's mind and television

40:51

sets and everyone in the British

40:53

invasion, and we were all swept up by

40:56

this new wave. This is so

40:58

long before social

41:00

media, and they lived on

41:03

mystery. That was part of

41:06

what they were selling was they

41:08

were able to put out what they

41:10

wanted you to see. Yeah, the Beatles did Christmas

41:13

greetings and they did this and

41:15

that really sweet cute stuff. Uh.

41:18

And they would then tour. The Stones would go

41:20

on tour, The Beatles would go on tour. But

41:22

they showed you what they felt like showing

41:25

you. They gave you what they wanted to give you.

41:27

So you're really left there in a dearth

41:29

and a sort of a void to fill

41:32

in some of the blanks. There wasn't a

41:34

ton know. Owner said, they weren't

41:36

on every talk show to be interviewed

41:39

all the time. So I think in

41:41

that void people loved

41:43

them so much and as I said, want to

41:45

keep them alive that they'll just fill

41:47

in because it's pre social

41:49

media, you know, dude,

41:52

I love I love that, Brian,

41:54

and I think there's something if

41:57

you take that and he combined it with the

42:00

intimacy that's talked about in the audio

42:02

medium that a lot of

42:04

times with regards to podcast has talked about

42:06

as an industry, how intimate this this

42:09

is where you're talking to someone or you're listening

42:11

to someone constantly just through

42:13

your ears. I'm imagining in

42:15

the sixties in a car, listening

42:17

to a song over and over and over as

42:20

it's being played in your living room

42:22

with your speakers you've got set up with your vinyl.

42:24

My dad would listen to Beatles

42:26

records just on repeat. Just sit down

42:28

in the living room and listen to Beatles records.

42:31

And that intimacy that you feel

42:33

you have with those individual songs,

42:35

with those individual musicians, and

42:37

the voices that you're constantly hearing,

42:40

I think that is really making

42:43

that connection even deeper.

42:46

And and like you said,

42:48

living on every moment, on every word that's written

42:50

in a tabloid. When Paul sat

42:52

down or you know, the Beatles sat down to be interviewed,

42:55

every little detail becomes

42:57

the most important thing that's

43:00

interesting, you know. And another factor

43:02

that you just sort of reminded

43:04

me of music performed

43:07

by people like the Beatles and largely

43:10

the Stones and a lot of these other very influential

43:12

artists is personal and it's

43:14

written by them. These days,

43:17

you'll see an awful lot of the pop artists where

43:19

songs are written by ten people. So

43:22

you're talking about something it's very important.

43:24

There is an intimacy. So those

43:26

headphones are right on your ear and Paul

43:29

is singing really perfect

43:31

sweet you know hey Jude, or

43:34

or you know John is singing Julia

43:37

in your headphones. Is very intimate,

43:39

you know um, and so

43:42

you do form a connection

43:44

with them more than you would an actor. An actor

43:46

is reading somebody else's words, and

43:49

as a viewer you might know that.

43:52

But as a listener to someone, you have

43:54

adopted this artist, the Beatles.

43:57

They are sort of extended family, and

44:00

maybe there's something to that that uh,

44:03

that relationship, you know, kind

44:05

of I know, fosters a little

44:07

bit of an imagination to fill

44:09

in some of the blanks in the spaces

44:12

that have been left for you to fill

44:14

in. And that's part

44:16

of the you know. I think the

44:18

the academic term for it is a para

44:20

social relationship. We

44:23

we have people speaking to

44:25

us, even if you know they might

44:28

lyrics might sound abstract on

44:30

on one track or another. I believe

44:32

that. I believe it's safe to say

44:34

at this point people

44:36

who listen to the Beatles have a

44:39

collection a very specific

44:41

maybe not entire song. It's very specific

44:43

moments in a song that speak

44:45

to them on on this intimate

44:48

human level. And when you have this, when

44:51

when your brain is telling you that you have formed

44:53

this social relationship, then we

44:55

see the you know, we see the beautiful

44:58

interconnectivity that can have up And if

45:01

that's the Jedi side of it, then the scythe

45:03

or dark side of it is when people

45:05

believe that they can start making demands

45:08

or presumptions of folks that they've

45:10

never met, as though they are owed

45:13

something, as though they are you know, this is

45:15

what I would ask my dad to

45:17

do or whatever. Right. And

45:20

and what I love about your point is

45:23

before the age of ubiquitous information,

45:26

this was this

45:28

was part of your fandom, right to read

45:31

tea leaves in every word. And

45:33

I have to ask you this

45:35

is just this is just an opinion

45:38

question. But in from

45:41

your perspective, having seen both

45:43

sides of this social coin, Uh,

45:45

do you do you think

45:48

one was better than the other or were these

45:50

just a natural evolution? Are there ever

45:52

times when you're like, you know, social media,

45:55

maybe we should take a step back or is it

45:57

more like forward to the future. Well,

45:59

it's a question. And uh, there is

46:01

no putting the genie back in the

46:03

bottle or the toothpaste back in the tube.

46:06

It is what it is. I would also

46:08

say that we're

46:11

all super high on it right

46:13

now. It has reached a zenith,

46:15

especially over the last sort of four

46:18

years. Let's say, Uh the

46:21

interaction is sort of boiled over. Um,

46:24

and it has been a

46:26

breeding ground for a lot of maybe

46:28

not as constructive or

46:31

playful conspiracy theories. Uh

46:33

so to it. Agree, it is a damaging

46:36

influence, but there's no putting it back.

46:39

And yeah, it would have It

46:41

would be great if we could just turn

46:43

it all off at once, but it ain't

46:45

gonna happen. You know, that

46:48

would be cool. But what would I do with half

46:50

of my day now? Uh? Fair?

46:53

I would you know, no more doom scrolling?

46:56

But you could you could just

46:58

practice all of the iconic riffs

47:00

that you get to play all the time. Yeah, those

47:03

five songs that Nold just told us about.

47:05

I could get started on those and do something constructive

47:07

with my life. Deck Chair, deck

47:10

chair, dex yair chair.

47:13

I'm so pumped for deck chair and pink litmus

47:16

shirt. You guys, I can't even express

47:19

my my enthusiasm. Um. I

47:21

think this is a really interesting place to

47:23

take the conversation. I mean it really that I

47:25

agree with Ben. I thought it was very insightful,

47:28

the idea of conspiracy around an artist

47:30

or around you know, the lore. To

47:32

me, this is like invented lore in so many

47:35

ways that maybe there's a grain of truth. That's sort

47:37

of what we always talk about, like on the show, we try to find

47:39

the there's the grain, and there's sort of the pearl

47:41

that sort of forms around the grain. And within

47:43

those layers, you know, there's lots of different

47:46

perspectives and there's lots of truth, and

47:48

then there's lots of you know, misinformation.

47:51

Um, but this one, it

47:53

really does seem like none of these were necessarily

47:55

started with maliciousness that Paul

47:57

is dead. One was that thing more started out of concern

48:00

earn right. It's like we're worried

48:02

that Paul's not okay. Paul tell us you're

48:04

okay. He's like, I'm okay, guys. The whole

48:06

thing was bloody ridiculous, and they're like, we don't

48:08

believe yet. Da

48:10

of course, of course doppelganger Paul

48:12

would say that, you know, of course, I think

48:15

of course you would. But I think it's a really good point.

48:17

It really is something that has started out of reverence and

48:19

out of you know, these mythical beings

48:22

that really aren't mythical beings at all. As

48:24

I'm sure you now are very comfortable with. You

48:27

know, you have that moment of anticipation

48:29

meeting this person that's very much larger

48:31

than life. But now that you've toured with him

48:33

and dined with him and spend time with his family,

48:35

you know him to just be a mortal guy,

48:38

you know, who's a pretty reasonable

48:40

and easy to get along with guy for someone

48:42

that's been through what he's been through and had

48:44

the level of fame at such an early age that he's had. Um,

48:47

I would say he seems like a pretty down to earth dude.

48:50

Uh. And I think you're probably lucky that you get

48:52

to tour with him and maybe not some others

48:54

that that that aren't quite as down to earth and cool.

48:57

That's a good point. Yeah, Like I said, he's

48:59

the best whole McCartney in the world.

49:05

I'm sorry, No,

49:07

this is perfect. We're still working on what we're

49:09

gonna call this episode, Brian, So

49:11

it might be that, uh,

49:15

because you've chosen out of all the Paul McCartney's

49:18

that's the best. Uh. This

49:21

this is an absolute pleasure and I have

49:23

to I have to come cleek here. You know,

49:26

in our exploration today,

49:29

you know, we wanted to be really careful

49:31

not to ask you a thousand

49:33

questions that you've had to field

49:35

a thousand times. And well

49:39

that's when we were taking this to a

49:41

larger conversation because one

49:45

thing that I noticed about all the

49:47

observations that you

49:49

and we have made today is that

49:52

they are structurally

49:54

there are things set to continue,

49:57

you know, and in the world of

50:00

musicianship and fandom and stadium

50:03

concerts, there it seems like

50:05

there will always be something in the zeitgeist

50:08

that creates this this lore, like

50:10

Matt Noel we're saying, and with

50:13

this in mind, I do have to ask

50:15

you about like the one quote unquote

50:18

conspiracy theory that was able to substantiate

50:21

the idea that Uncle Sam

50:23

was in some way spying on John Lennon. I

50:26

have to ask you, Brian, was

50:28

there has there been a time in

50:30

your career or in your travels, because

50:33

you know international as well, where

50:35

you thought you or your fellow musicians

50:37

might be being followed or monitored

50:39

by people other than obsessive fans.

50:42

Yeah, it's interesting you say that

50:44

that you asked that. In the early

50:46

days of being engaged

50:49

at Facebook and stuff, I

50:51

did start to feel like, oh, wait a second,

50:53

this is very big brotherish

50:56

and what if they're

50:58

monitoring me what to and I put a tape

51:00

over my camera on my computer and all that

51:03

stuff. Yeah, there

51:05

are times when that

51:07

does occur to me. Um,

51:10

but I feel pretty secure

51:13

and safe that uh, you

51:15

know, I've turned off my microphone for

51:17

all of my apps, you know, and I try my

51:19

bed. It is kind of freaky though, when you're

51:22

you know, Mandy was just talking about watching

51:25

something on television and

51:28

then she turns on her phone and

51:30

suddenly those those

51:33

actors and that show is being

51:35

advertised on her Instagram feed

51:38

out of nowhere, and so

51:40

you get a little bit freaky, Like, you know, Alexa,

51:43

just a little less coffee. Just back it

51:45

off a little bit. Stop bugging

51:48

me, Stop reminding me of what I did

51:50

five minutes ago. I know you want to sell

51:52

me that rug, but I'm

51:54

not looking for that rug today because

51:57

probably you just bought that rug and they keep spamming

51:59

you with for new rugs. I've never quite

52:01

gotten why that's how the algorithm

52:03

works. It seems like someone ought to address

52:05

that because it's not very it's not very heartful.

52:08

It's just that you have shopped for it before,

52:11

or you looked into it. Yeah, exactly. They

52:13

don't know you bought it or not. They're just gonna keep

52:15

selling you have the damn rug. I

52:17

love the idea because would would have first

52:20

occurred to be I was thinking, what

52:22

on earth is going on? Is there? How

52:25

is there a system that's smart enough to know someone

52:28

might be interested in something, but

52:30

somehow still at the same time not

52:32

smart enough to know when to let off?

52:34

Like do they really think there's someone out there

52:37

who just bought like a toilet seat

52:39

and they get ads right where toilet seats? Are

52:41

they really going to go? Ah? What the heck? I'll

52:44

I'll treat myself. I'll get another one, you

52:46

know, just just as a little a little me time.

52:48

That's great, so funny.

52:51

Yeah, Well, hey guys, I I know we have

52:53

to kind of wrap up here. We're getting towards the end of our time.

52:56

Uh, I want to ask you one more question,

52:58

Brandon. I'm hoping you can angle

53:00

it into telling us about your podcast.

53:03

So, like we started, I started answering

53:05

the question, and those are my dogs. I apologize,

53:08

and then we'll get into

53:11

into your into your podcast, just tell us all about

53:13

it. So the first part of the question is, uh,

53:16

you swim in circles just

53:18

that are beyond my imagination as

53:21

a drummer, a kid who grew

53:23

up like wishing to be a musician, wishing

53:25

to just be around

53:27

people that are at your caliber and

53:29

your peers calibers. Um,

53:32

what what is the weirdest situation

53:34

you found yourself in? And and

53:37

it could be weird to whatever whatever

53:39

way you would like to use the

53:41

word weird, But just what's the weirdest

53:43

situation where you thought, man, maybe I

53:46

shouldn't be here? Um?

53:48

And and what kinds of things

53:50

then do you talk about on your show?

53:53

Well, I mean the first part of the question. I think

53:55

the weirdest place to find myself

53:57

is playing with Paul McCartney. You know. I'm

54:00

mean, I'm a little white kid from

54:02

Glendale, California, and I

54:04

am just one of eighty

54:06

million kids who dreamed

54:08

of maybe one day having a

54:11

chance to play with one of

54:13

the Beatles, you know, And somehow

54:16

I wrestled that little dream down,

54:18

and somehow Paul McCartney

54:20

found me to be the right guy for

54:22

these nearly twenty years.

54:25

That's weird. That's an anomaly,

54:27

you know, that doesn't usually happen. And

54:29

I'm very aware of that. I'm very

54:31

very fortunate. Um, they're

54:34

about seventy nine of those eighty

54:37

million kids would be very good at doing

54:39

it. There is no it's because

54:41

I'm the best guy for it. It's

54:43

that, Um, I don't know. That's

54:46

weird. And uh to

54:48

the second part though a

54:50

little bit more on that. There was a time when

54:52

I was very afraid that I

54:55

wasn't going to be able to make a living playing

54:57

music. Things had slowed down. I had had

54:59

a hit with Smokey Robinson in the late eighties,

55:02

and I'd spend every dime of the money that was

55:04

coming my way, and now the checks were gonna get

55:06

smaller. And it was clear

55:08

to me I was newly sober.

55:11

I was just trying to find my legs again. And

55:14

I remember saying what I call the scary

55:16

prayer. I said, you know,

55:18

God or higher Power or you know

55:21

Zeus, whoever is out there,

55:23

you know, if this is not where I'm meant to

55:25

be, please show me that,

55:28

and please show me where I am meant

55:30

to be of service to my friends

55:33

and my fellows and to myself and

55:35

to you. And sometime

55:37

after that a check came through. I mean, I was ready

55:39

to go deliver food for Pink Dot. You

55:41

know, I was really getting scared. My brother

55:44

said give it another six months. I'm

55:46

like, oh, thanks a lot. Six months.

55:49

But anyway, somehow, you know, I,

55:51

um, you know, one thing led

55:53

to another and I was rolling again, and

55:55

and now I'm very glad I didn't

55:58

go get the job with Pink Dot. But

56:02

you know, my my podcast

56:05

called on Tour with Brian Ray

56:07

by Black Barrel Media, along

56:09

with My Heart Radio, is an

56:12

exploration of the

56:14

struggle and the sacrifices

56:16

and the hard work that

56:19

are are necessary to even

56:21

be in the running for a job like

56:23

playing with Paul McCartney. Like, how

56:25

do you even get that in your head that

56:28

you could do that as a teenager,

56:30

as a kid, what you want to

56:32

do? What? Right? You're

56:34

gonna get beat up if you admit that out loud

56:37

at school? You know, like, um, so

56:39

it's like who does that? And

56:42

I think that a lot of people out there. I

56:45

just think it's rainbows and toadstools,

56:48

you know, it must be just golden You're

56:50

just flying around having nothing

56:52

but fun. It's like a monkey's

56:54

show or something. It's like hard day's night

56:57

all the time. But it

56:59

it is a lot of hard work, and it's

57:01

a lot of time off, and it's a lot of

57:03

alone time. And then you get

57:05

home from a big fancy tour and

57:08

it's trash night. So there's a lot

57:10

of real stuff that goes on

57:12

that you have to come to terms with, and it's

57:14

a lot of hard work that I think

57:17

people out there need to know about. And that was

57:19

how the Ontour podcast

57:22

began, was an exploration of that to

57:25

share with people that it's hard

57:27

work. We're just other hard working

57:30

people that do have a weird job.

57:32

Uh. And you know, we're just about wrapping

57:35

up season one and this week's guest

57:37

is uh uh Well,

57:39

our most recent guest is uh Matt

57:42

Sorum from the Cult and from

57:44

Guns and Roses and Velvet Revolver

57:47

and it's just been a blast, uh And

57:50

Noel has been a big part of our success,

57:54

and Mandy Wimmer of course sitting over

57:56

there um and it's just

57:58

been a blast. Man. We've been having a great time

58:00

and we've been doing after shows

58:03

that we dropped every Friday where

58:05

we talk about that week's episode

58:07

that we just dropped, and hey, man, it's just

58:10

to be honest with you, it's fun to be

58:12

new at something again because

58:15

I've been playing music and playing music live

58:17

and writing music and producing music

58:20

since I was a teen. Okay,

58:22

so it's fun to

58:24

be new at something because it's

58:26

scary and it's fun and as cool as

58:29

challenging. Right on. Well, thank you so

58:31

much for doing such an amazing podcast

58:33

and for joining us on our podcast to talk about

58:35

some kind This has been a wonderfully

58:38

freewheeling conversation. Little Paul

58:40

McCartney a little inspiration thrown in there for

58:42

good measure. I've had a great time, and I

58:44

hope you did too, Brian, thanks again, it's

58:46

been a blast. Thank you guys so much. Yeah,

58:48

yes, thank you so much. And folks, if

58:51

you want to hear the inside

58:53

scoop, if you want to continue the conversation,

58:56

please do check out on Tour

58:58

with Brian Ray. I was earlier

59:01

no spoilers because you should

59:03

listen to the episodes. Earlier. I was checking

59:05

out your after show with your

59:07

take on Prince and Prince

59:10

Oh, that's a that's a story for another

59:12

day. We might have to have you back on the show. But

59:15

uh, but while we're working that out, folks,

59:17

please do check out on tour.

59:19

Please do, and I hope I'm not overstepping

59:22

here, Brian, Please do go ahead

59:24

and visit Brian Ray dot com,

59:26

where you can learn more about

59:29

your extensive music catalog, what

59:32

you've got going on currently, what we've got

59:34

going on in the future. Is an absolute

59:36

pleasure to spend time with you

59:39

today. Listeners. Please

59:41

let us know your take, your

59:44

take on Beatles conspiracies, Please

59:46

let us know what you would like

59:48

to learn more about in the world of music.

59:50

We try to be easy to find online.

59:52

Oh one last thing before we do that, whatever

59:55

you do, you listener

59:57

who's listening, do not go to YouTube

1:00:00

dot com Slash the Bayonets

1:00:03

band. Do not go there, and do

1:00:05

not listen to Sucker for

1:00:07

Love because it will not stop laying

1:00:09

in your head for eight years. That's

1:00:11

how long it's been there and it will not stop for

1:00:13

eight years. Goal achieve.

1:00:16

Thank you Matt, thank you Ben, thank you Noel.

1:00:18

And one last thing, it was jaed

1:00:20

Gar Hoover, not Sam. I

1:00:22

knew it. I knew it. Perfect

1:00:24

ending we're kind

1:00:27

of blowing over that. It's it's it's

1:00:29

the one real conspiracy

1:00:31

of all those not to blow anyone's bubbles,

1:00:33

if you're still entertaining them, but

1:00:36

that I know of anyway, it's the one that

1:00:38

is true. And it was Dick

1:00:40

Nixon, that little devious

1:00:42

man, asking Jack or Hoover

1:00:45

to do him a favor and and tie

1:00:47

this guy up because he's getting

1:00:50

too much attention being anti war?

1:00:52

Now do you really think so? Yes,

1:00:55

it is absolutely true. Wow,

1:00:58

it's true. And as Hoover was also,

1:01:01

I would say, Hoover and Nixon, we're both crazy,

1:01:04

but they were crazy in slightly

1:01:06

different ways. That's one thing I didn't ask. I

1:01:08

meant to ask, like, how do you

1:01:11

think the government handles monitoring

1:01:14

like activist musicians? Now? You

1:01:16

know, because there has to be something to it. Well,

1:01:19

you know, I mean, I guess it's the n

1:01:21

S a right that's tasked with monitoring.

1:01:24

Well, there's just so much noise out there,

1:01:26

you know, they would be incredibly bored

1:01:29

with what I'm up to, right, you

1:01:31

know, searching cute you know, pet

1:01:33

memes late at night. You know, that's

1:01:36

about it. That's all that gonna get out of me.

1:01:39

But back then, of course that

1:01:41

was very cloak and dagger

1:01:44

stuff, you know. And um, well

1:01:46

they say that Jager Hoover had a

1:01:48

lot of skeletons is in his own closet.

1:01:51

So there was an element of

1:01:53

him projecting out onto the world

1:01:56

his shadow self that he couldn't

1:01:59

or wouldn't own. And

1:02:01

I'll look, I'll let you guys go

1:02:03

and look up what those uh,

1:02:06

what those proclivities were all about

1:02:08

for Mr Hoover. Oh, yeah,

1:02:12

you know, you've just been a little more honest than at

1:02:14

peace with himself. Yeah, I mean, it's

1:02:16

no big deal these days, so what

1:02:18

if you want to wear a dress? Mr. To

1:02:20

think about this, my parents were both at Kent State

1:02:22

University, Brian when all this

1:02:24

stuff happened there. And when

1:02:27

you think about the Students for a Democratic Society

1:02:29

and some of these other you know groups

1:02:31

that were just college students getting together

1:02:34

many times quietly, you

1:02:36

know, publicly, but secretly

1:02:38

to some extent, to to plan certain

1:02:41

demonstrations and you know, certain actual

1:02:43

actions. And they only

1:02:46

had so much influence within their sphere. Right

1:02:48

then you imagine the influence of somebody like

1:02:50

John Lennon. I think if you're

1:02:53

in some Ivory Tower, you know, at

1:02:55

the FBI or wherever, and

1:02:57

you imagine the power that could be wielded

1:03:00

by somebody like that. Um I

1:03:02

bet it is scary for somebody

1:03:04

in that position. Yeah,

1:03:07

no doubt. I mean, can you imagine you don't

1:03:09

know what they're coming up with, and you're John

1:03:11

Lennon and you learn

1:03:14

or you suspect there's a file on you,

1:03:16

and then you start seeing that your

1:03:19

immigration is getting held up. It's

1:03:22

really scary, man, scary.

1:03:24

So yeah, not cool at all.

1:03:27

But um man, We'll

1:03:29

imagine if you're William Campbell and you know

1:03:31

you're like, oh man, I gotta keep pretending to be

1:03:33

Paul McCartney. Uh what

1:03:35

what kind of finally got on me? What

1:03:38

about this? I mean, you guys know about that

1:03:40

song from I think it was Memory Almost

1:03:42

Full called My Ever

1:03:45

Present Past on Paul's

1:03:47

uh Memory Almost Full album, I believe,

1:03:50

and he did a video using

1:03:53

a Paul McCartney look alike. A

1:03:55

really nice guy and that

1:03:58

guy is playing Paul in the video and his

1:04:00

way of having a little bit of fun

1:04:02

with that as well. WHOA, that's

1:04:05

our show, folks. Give us a call. One

1:04:07

eight st d w y

1:04:10

t K You can also send us an email directly

1:04:12

where we are conspiracy at iHeart radio

1:04:14

dot com.

1:04:33

Stuff they Don't want you to know is a production

1:04:35

of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

1:04:37

from my heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app,

1:04:40

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1:04:42

favorite shows.