0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

0:24

welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

0:27

my name is Note they call me Ben.

0:29

We are joined as always with our super producer

0:31

Paul Mission controled decades. Most

0:34

importantly, you are you, You are

0:36

here, and that makes this stuff

0:38

they don't want you to know. In

0:41

previous episodes over the years,

0:43

we have covered aspects of

0:46

quite a controversial organization

0:49

that's familiar to all of our long time

0:51

listeners. That is the

0:53

Church of Scientology, the concept

0:56

of scientology, and general You'll

0:58

note we did a previous episode several

1:00

YouTube videos on something called Operations

1:03

snow White. We've also delved

1:06

into similar waters in the past,

1:09

but uh today we

1:11

are immensely fortunate to be

1:13

speaking with someone who has extensive

1:17

firsthand experience. As we always say,

1:19

we like to go to primary

1:21

sources when possible, and

1:23

that is why today we are

1:27

I'll say we are over the moon to speak

1:29

with Mike Render, former

1:32

senior Scientology executive as

1:34

well as the co creator

1:37

of the new podcast, Scientology

1:40

Fair Game. Mike, thanks so much for

1:42

hopping on the show with us today. Oh, you're very

1:44

welcome, guys. I'm really happy to be

1:46

here. As one

1:48

of my friends said, this is four

1:51

white males all and

1:57

she said, yes, but they're

2:00

good white males. So

2:05

I think I know, I think I know who you're talking

2:07

about. And uh and

2:09

uh technically where uh if you look

2:12

at the four of us naggregate, we're mostly white.

2:15

But but splitty

2:18

splitty two hairs the site. You know, Mike,

2:20

this podcast is doing

2:22

some tremendous work in

2:25

terms of clarifying

2:27

questions people outside of the organization

2:29

have had, correcting some myths,

2:32

and giving an inside look into

2:34

scientology that many people

2:37

would not have otherwise had

2:39

the chance to experience or learn about.

2:41

So one of our first questions for today

2:44

is, um, Well, it's a little bit of a

2:46

loaded question, perhaps what

2:49

was your inspiration for the creation

2:51

of Scientology Fair Game and could

2:53

you tell us a little bit about how it came about shaw

2:56

Um, Really, the inspiration

3:00

was COVID nineteen. I

3:03

know that that that's a sort of a wise guy

3:06

answer, but the truth of the matter

3:08

is, after the end of

3:10

the Scientology and the Aftermath,

3:13

which was the TV show that Leah

3:15

and I had done. We

3:17

wanted to continue to move

3:21

into new areas and to explore

3:24

things in more depth and

3:26

to be able to cover some of the ground

3:29

that we just were not able to cover on

3:31

that program. And initially

3:34

our thought was, well, we'll just do another

3:36

TV show, and

3:38

then the COVID hit and

3:41

there was no way of

3:44

doing a TV show and someone

3:47

suggested to us, you know, you

3:49

guys should start doing a podcast. And

3:51

you know, I already have a blog that

3:54

I do every day, and Leah

3:57

was like, wow, this sounds interesting. Do

3:59

you think that we can do I said, well, yes,

4:02

it's great because we can do it from home.

4:04

We don't have to go anywhere, we don't

4:06

need to shoot crew, we don't need

4:08

a whole bunch of people. We can just sit down

4:11

and interview people

4:13

or talk amongst ourselves and cover

4:16

a lot of stuff that we haven't been able to cover

4:18

before. So I

4:20

I guess it's not an incorrect

4:23

answer to say that it was the

4:25

pandemic that was the inspiration,

4:28

but it really is simply

4:31

our desire to keep chipping

4:34

away at this monolithic

4:37

monstrosity that is scientology

4:40

by providing more and more information

4:43

in whatever forum we can,

4:46

and this is a great one. We're

4:48

thoroughly enjoying doing this

4:50

podcast. I have

4:52

I have a terrific time because

4:55

we get to chat with people and there's

4:57

sort of no, no, your

5:00

restrictions or limitations.

5:02

You don't have. Oh we've got to get in

5:04

six minutes before the next ad

5:06

spot, and we've gotta you know, it

5:08

has to be a forty three minute

5:10

program that, like broadcast television,

5:14

has got a lot more things

5:17

that people don't even realize who

5:19

haven't ever done it. Oh, for sure, I

5:22

don't think you're alone in COVID being an

5:24

inspiration to start a podcast. It seems like

5:26

there's been sort of a podcast golden

5:29

age that has sprung up around around COVID.

5:31

For sure. It's it's definitely been an interesting

5:33

time and they're happy that that this led

5:35

to this podcast up for from you and leah

5:38

Um. Can you talk a little bit about the

5:40

practice of fair gaming and

5:43

the idea that sort of led to the

5:45

title of the podcast and where you

5:47

kind of fit into that in terms of the organization,

5:50

and just give listeners a little bit of a background

5:52

about this practice. And where you kind of

5:54

fitting. Fair gaming

5:57

is or is a term that

5:59

was coined by L. Run Hubbard, the

6:01

founder of Scientology, for

6:04

the activity of dealing

6:07

with the enemies of scientology.

6:09

And L Run Hubbard, like old cult

6:11

leaders, had proclivity

6:14

to UH

6:17

designating a US versus

6:19

them world, and that

6:21

there was always some monsters

6:24

out there that are out to get

6:26

us scientologists, and those

6:28

monsters have to be vanquished. And

6:32

the practice in scientology

6:35

is called fair game, and

6:37

it really means to do

6:40

anything necessary

6:43

to obliterate that

6:45

which is perceived to be an enemy.

6:48

And Scientology loves

6:50

to say, well, fair gaming has been a fair

6:52

game. The term fair game has been canceled,

6:55

and that actually is true. L.

6:57

Run Hubbard issued a policy letter.

7:00

UH. Policy letter

7:02

is the the official Scientology

7:05

UM documents and

7:08

writings of L. Run Hubbard. That A

7:10

considered to be scripture of the

7:12

religion. And I use religion

7:15

in in quotation marks

7:17

and church in quotation marks.

7:20

You can't see me doing that because

7:22

you're only hearing me. But this is my quotation

7:25

marks, just like that UM,

7:28

and this is the scripture

7:30

of scientology. And Hubbard

7:33

fancied himself as UH

7:36

as many things I mean, he claimed

7:38

to be everything from

7:40

a master photographer, to a master

7:43

mariner, to a horticulturalist, to

7:45

a great researcher, to a philosopher,

7:47

to a race car driver, to like anything

7:51

and everything. But one of the things that he

7:53

claimed to be was an intelligence

7:56

officer in from naval intelligence

7:59

during the War UH and that he

8:01

had studied all

8:03

the the arts of intelligence,

8:06

and that he was an

8:09

expert on COVID operations

8:11

and black propaganda and

8:14

all of these things. And he wrote extensively

8:17

in scientology about

8:19

how you go about employing all

8:21

these techniques to destroy your

8:23

enemies. And I'll just go

8:26

back because I mentioned that he said that

8:28

he had canceled this fair game.

8:30

Yes, he laid

8:33

out all of these dictates

8:35

on how you go about destroying someone,

8:37

and he called it fair game. But then

8:40

that became public and created

8:42

some media flaps back in the sixties,

8:45

so he wrote a policy letter that said

8:48

cancelation of fair game. And

8:51

I'm going to quote this paraphrase

8:53

it, but it's almost verbatim.

8:55

The use of the term fair game is

8:58

canceled. It brought about

9:00

bad public relations, so

9:03

we will no longer use the term.

9:05

But nothing about how

9:07

we treat enemies of Scientology

9:10

changes, So

9:13

Scientology comes

9:15

out routine Lean says,

9:18

we don't do fair game. It was canceled by all

9:20

run how fair game is dead, fair

9:22

game doesn't exist. Fair game this fair game?

9:25

That so Lee and I went, you know what, we're

9:27

gonna call our show fair game, just

9:29

to stick it so that

9:32

it you know, we know

9:35

that that's a bunch of bullshit, and

9:38

we're not gonna subscribe

9:40

to the lies and

9:43

the obfuscation and

9:45

the misdirection and whatever that Scientology

9:48

likes to engage in. And

9:50

you asked me also, Noll, what's

9:53

my involvement, Well, my involvement

9:56

is you were you were one of the vanquishers I mean,

9:58

correct. I it was for

10:01

almost two decades the head

10:03

of what is called the Office of Special

10:05

Affairs of Scientology,

10:08

and the Office of Special Affairs is

10:10

the department of

10:13

Scientology designated

10:15

with the responsibility of destroying

10:18

the enemies of Scientology.

10:20

So that was SPCE

10:22

correct suppressive persons SPS.

10:26

And I went from destroying

10:29

SPS to being the sp

10:32

to be destroyed. I want to I want

10:34

to talk more about that, but the first thing that comes

10:36

to mind is the vocabulary

10:39

um Mike. I don't know if you've seen that

10:41

show, The Vow that's on HBO

10:43

Max right now. Oh, it's wonderful

10:46

And in fact, we interviewed Mark the Sente

10:48

last week on our podcast. Oh

10:51

that's amazing. Yeah, we should

10:53

listen to it. It's it's an amazing

10:55

episode because the parallels between

10:58

Keith Ranieri and Next and Scientology

11:01

are astonishing. Well,

11:03

what I wanted to get to are

11:06

the similarities, because as

11:08

I'm watching that show and thinking

11:11

about Scientology and what we've learned on

11:13

this show in the past, something that really

11:15

struck me were those similarities

11:17

you're talking about. And one

11:19

of the big things that I noticed

11:21

is this, on the surface

11:24

a self improvement program, uh

11:27

for the individual, right, and it's

11:29

aided introspection appears

11:31

to be the way that you get to that better

11:33

place and you see improvement. But both

11:36

have this extremely insular

11:38

vocabulary. UM, and

11:41

I just wanted to know in your experience, how

11:44

does having a very

11:46

like a large modified vocabulary,

11:49

how does it affect the way you

11:51

think on a regular basis? That is

11:54

such an amazingly, incredibly

11:57

smart question that no one has ever asked

11:59

me before. Okay,

12:01

okay, seriously,

12:05

this is this is

12:07

not unique to scientology. If you

12:10

now study all high

12:13

control organizations or cults,

12:16

you will find that terminology

12:20

that limits understanding

12:24

two our confined

12:26

group of people is an important

12:29

aspect of keeping them under

12:31

under your thumb and control.

12:34

It makes outsiders

12:36

all outsiders who are

12:39

uninformed and incapable

12:41

of understanding, and

12:44

insiders all smarter

12:46

than everybody else because they're the only ones

12:48

that really understand. And

12:51

what's so fascinating about nexium

12:53

is the terminology that

12:55

Keith Ranieri stole from scientology

12:58

is identical. They talk about technology

13:01

and levels and ethics.

13:03

They have disconnection they I mean,

13:05

it's it's a crazy

13:08

amount of parallels between

13:12

scientology and Nexium.

13:15

The big screw up that Keith

13:17

Rinieri made was he did

13:19

not turn it into a religion. He

13:22

should have. He should He

13:24

could have taken all the money, just like scientology

13:27

does. He could have had all the power he wanted,

13:29

and he would have had the protection of

13:31

the First Amendment in the United States.

13:34

And that protection is

13:37

is almost like

13:39

being a superman. You

13:43

can walk through walls and

13:46

do all sorts of things that mim models

13:48

are unable, incapable,

13:51

or illegal to do, and

13:54

get away with it, and that

13:58

I think was ultimately the downfall

14:00

of Keith Ranieri. If he had had

14:04

the bront from millions

14:07

to wage a legal

14:10

war on the basis

14:12

that he was practicing a religion

14:15

and that his adherents were following

14:17

religious beliefs and practices, he

14:20

probably would not be in prison right now.

14:23

We're paying taxes, yeah,

14:25

exactly, exactly.

14:28

But but but you know, Ben, you

14:30

say that, and that is true.

14:33

But from my perspective, I have always

14:36

argued that the more important

14:39

thing about tax exemption for scientology

14:42

was not that they could They didn't

14:44

pay taxes. Yeah, that sucks.

14:46

Every every citizen of the United

14:49

States is subsidizing scientology.

14:52

I mean that is a fact. But

14:55

Scientology could pay that. They

14:58

got plenty of money. They got three billion and dollars.

15:00

They could pay taxes. More

15:02

importantly, two things.

15:05

One with religious

15:08

status from the I R S comes

15:10

no government oversight.

15:13

Scientology and religions do not

15:15

have to file any record of what they

15:17

spend their money on, how much they make,

15:19

whether they're spending all to higher private

15:22

investigators to go around and destroy

15:24

people's lives, or lawyers

15:26

to to just funk with people

15:29

for the sake of fucking with them.

15:31

And secondly, when you walk

15:34

into court and you tell a judge,

15:38

uh, your honor, I am sorry. You

15:40

are forbidden by

15:42

the First Amendment, by constitutional

15:45

law from engaging

15:47

even in an inquiry

15:50

into whether our practices are appropriate

15:53

or not. Because there is a complete

15:55

separation between courts

15:58

and religion. You can't

16:00

go there. It works,

16:03

It works all the time. Scientology has

16:05

made it well. I help make it work. It

16:08

works, and it prevents courts

16:10

and law enforcement from

16:13

taking action where they otherwise

16:15

would. And so Keith R.

16:17

Nary made a big screw up because

16:19

he should have turned himself into another

16:22

l Run Hubbard messiah. That

16:24

leads me to a question was on my

16:26

mind, Mike um as some of

16:28

our listeners are who are familiar

16:30

with your work may know uh. And I

16:32

think maternal alluded to earlier. Uh,

16:35

you were a former senior

16:38

Scientology executive. I think a lot

16:40

of people don't understand like senior can

16:42

mean a lot of things, but I think

16:44

a lot of people don't understand the

16:47

specifics of it until you've laid out the

16:49

Office of Special Affairs and such.

16:52

This one thing that hit

16:54

me when I was learning more about

16:56

your experiences, is that you

16:58

actually joined SEA org

17:01

see ORG itself being one

17:04

of the I

17:06

think we're for outsiders to Scientology,

17:09

that that's one of the organizations

17:11

or one of the arms of the of Scientology.

17:14

That really baffles a lot of people. You know, you

17:16

hear stories of folks signing billion

17:18

year contracts. You hear

17:21

about l. Ron Hubbard I guess

17:23

also known as the commodore at times UH

17:25

living in international waters to avoid

17:28

UH certain legal implications. Was

17:31

Hubbard on Sea order on

17:34

Apollo specifically to avoid

17:37

UH legal problems

17:39

with the I R s? Or were there other world

17:42

governments evolved or what what led

17:44

him? And then ultimately you to see ORG.

17:47

Okay, that's a compound

17:49

question, uh, council counter

17:52

counselor that's a compound question, but

17:56

I will endeavor to answer it.

17:58

Okay. First of all, the Sea Organization

18:01

is probably best analogized

18:03

to an order of the

18:06

Catholic Church, like or

18:08

the Vatican. This is the

18:10

most dedicated people in scientology

18:13

who live, work, eat, sleep,

18:16

and and do every other

18:18

activity within the confines

18:21

of the Scientology organization.

18:24

They are four seven three

18:27

d sixty five days a year full

18:29

time scientologists

18:31

working for scientology,

18:34

and it's not just stories. Every

18:36

SIOUG member has to sign in

18:38

order to join up with the SIOUG a

18:40

contract for a billion years.

18:43

Yes, that's right, b with a B

18:46

billion and l

18:49

Ron Hubbard started the

18:51

Sea Organization in nine

18:54

seven after he had

18:56

been effectively he was

18:59

living in England at the time. He had

19:01

gone to Rhodesia

19:03

because he believed that he had been cecil

19:06

rhodes in a previous lifetime. He

19:08

had gone to Rhodesia to reclaim

19:10

his country, but had gotten kicked

19:13

out of the of Rhodesia

19:15

and then returned tried to return

19:17

to England, where he was living, and the government

19:20

there had effectively banned

19:23

him from re entry into the

19:25

United Kingdom and told him his visa

19:28

was being denied for extension.

19:30

He was already in trouble with the f

19:33

d A in the U S and the I R

19:35

S in the US, so he

19:37

went, Okay, I'm gonna

19:39

go buy a boat and

19:42

sail around in international waters

19:44

where I am out of the

19:47

jurisdiction of any specific

19:49

government. The only problem

19:51

with that is, though, when you're

19:53

sailing in international waters, that's

19:55

true. As soon as you get to a port, you're

19:57

definitely in the jurisdiction of

20:00

the government. And he went to

20:02

Greece and got thrown out of Greece, he got

20:04

thrown out of Spain, he got thrown out of Morocco,

20:07

he got thrown out of Portugal. I mean,

20:09

it was sort of one thing after another,

20:12

but he believed

20:14

that this was the way to stay

20:18

out of trouble with government

20:21

agencies and authorities, and

20:25

to some extent that worked

20:28

for a number of years because he

20:30

was able to move from one place to the next, to

20:32

the next and sort of out

20:34

out of this hot water, jump

20:37

into the next part, and then that would

20:39

eventually boil over and then jump into

20:41

the next one, until in ninety

20:44

five he sort of went well. Actually,

20:46

what happened was he had a heart attack in nine

20:50

and I was on board the ship with him

20:52

in Curasao, and the

20:55

medical care there wasn't what he

20:57

thought it was necessary, so he

20:59

decided have to go back to the US. So

21:02

we all ended up coming back to the United States

21:05

and and taking up residents

21:07

in clear Water, Florida, which is still

21:09

the quote spiritual headquarters

21:12

of scientology in the world, clear

21:15

Water, Florida. We're going to pause

21:17

for a word from our sponsor, and then

21:19

we'll be back with more from Mike Render. And

21:29

we're back with our conversation with Mike

21:31

Render, formerly of the Church of Scientology.

21:34

You you knew Hubbard. I mean you you were

21:36

in the church from a very early age and you got

21:38

connected at a relatively high level

21:40

pretty early. I think in your teens

21:43

you were on that chip and you knew

21:46

l Ron Hubbard himself. Can you talk a little bit

21:48

about how that came to be from being

21:50

in Australia and raised scientologist

21:52

and then being on this ship and international

21:55

waters with this, you know, science fiction

21:57

writer come religious guru. Yes

22:01

I can, Okay, no,

22:05

no, no, that the truth

22:08

of the matter is being raised a

22:10

scientologist as a It's

22:12

sort of like the

22:15

the old idea

22:18

of uh families

22:21

in the Catholic Church sending their oldest

22:23

son to to the

22:25

Vatican to to serve and

22:27

ultimately hopefully rise to

22:30

the level of being a bishop

22:32

or whatever. That really was

22:35

my idea when I was growing

22:38

up. Was eventually the most

22:40

important thing for me to do, and

22:42

what I aspired to do was

22:45

to work with ll Run Hubbard, Like

22:47

this is in in the mind of a

22:50

scientologist, This is like sitting

22:52

at the feet of Buddha. This

22:54

is like going and

22:56

and being personally with

22:59

the with the the ultimate

23:02

authority and transcendental,

23:05

brilliant mind of the universe.

23:08

And for a

23:10

young scientologist and a scientology

23:13

family, that was kind of,

23:15

oh, that's pretty cool. If you can

23:17

pull that off. There's not many who

23:20

do. There were only you know, people

23:23

on that ship with l Run Hubbard. That was

23:25

it. That was two fifty people in the entire

23:28

world who got to learn

23:30

at the feet of the master. And

23:33

so it was it

23:36

was a privilege and

23:38

an honor, and uh

23:41

made the family proud that

23:44

I went off to do,

23:49

you know, serve my time with

23:52

l. Run Hubbard. And he

23:55

was he was an enigma

23:58

in many respects. You

24:00

know, you read

24:02

a lot, you know, since I left

24:05

scientology, I have read a lot,

24:07

and I read a lot about you know, personality

24:10

disorders and sociopaths and psychopaths

24:13

and this and that. There are a

24:15

lot of people and they have very

24:17

definite characteristics that

24:20

are that are chattable and documentable,

24:23

and they all had them. And Hubbard

24:26

was on

24:28

one side, astonishingly

24:31

charming. I mean, he had

24:33

the ability to

24:36

charm people and tell stories

24:38

and be very gregarious and

24:40

funny and and

24:43

endearing almost and on the

24:45

other side it was like the jackal

24:48

and hide. He was like a

24:50

raging lunatic. And

24:54

it's it's

24:56

interesting that when at

24:59

least in my experience, you

25:00

are you are associated with those people.

25:04

And it's funny because you know, some

25:06

of the books talk about this. You

25:09

tend to look

25:11

at others as you see yourself,

25:14

and so you look at someone and

25:17

they're they're like, they

25:20

tell jokes and they're kind of nice,

25:22

and they they ask how you're

25:24

doing and are you well, which was

25:26

like a Hubbard sort of trait, and you

25:29

know, being very solicitous

25:31

and you're almost self effacing

25:34

and then turning into a rage

25:36

monster and you go, well,

25:40

I guess he just gives a little upset that

25:43

like you excuse it because you

25:45

don't believe that that's the real person.

25:47

You believe that that's the anomaly,

25:50

and that the real person is the good

25:52

part, because that's

25:54

how good people are, and

25:57

that's how you look at others

25:59

sort of through your own lens. And

26:02

it takes quite a lot when,

26:04

particularly when you've been raised to believe

26:07

that someone is like the Guru

26:09

and has the answers to everything in

26:11

life and has discovered

26:14

things that nobody in the history of the universe

26:16

has discovered before to

26:19

shake off the idea that they

26:21

could that that the bad that you

26:23

were seeing is really bad, and

26:26

that it's not just an

26:28

anomaly. And

26:30

and so, you know, like

26:32

I said, Hubbard was an enigma. Anybody

26:35

that you talked to that actually met the

26:37

guy will tell you, my

26:40

god, he was charming, he was larger than

26:42

life. He walked into a room and the room

26:44

lit up, and he was amazing, and there were

26:46

all this sort of stuff. And then did

26:48

you ever feel like maybe it was your like, Oh, I

26:50

don't want to displease him. I don't want to bring out

26:53

that angry side. It could be my fault. Maybe I

26:55

did something wrong. Oh of course. And that's

26:57

a that's a fundamental

26:59

prince of pull of scientology. I was even

27:01

gonna get to that null a

27:03

fundamental principle. And Hubbard

27:05

was a genius in developing

27:08

a lot of the things that he did in scientology,

27:11

because the idea in

27:13

scientology is that you are responsible

27:16

for everything about your state

27:19

of being, and what

27:21

if good things happen to you, it's

27:23

because you're good but if bad

27:25

ship happens to it's good things happen

27:27

to it is because scientology taught you how to how

27:30

to experience the good. If

27:33

bad stuff happens to you, it's because

27:35

of your own

27:37

evil transgressions,

27:40

violations of the more rays of the group.

27:42

And if you look inside your

27:44

own head and figure

27:47

out what it is that you have done

27:49

that has caused this bad ship

27:51

to happen to you, it will all resolve.

27:54

So you look and you go, oh

27:57

my god, the old man is really

27:59

he's really pissed. He's upset of me.

28:02

What did I do? How

28:04

did I cause that to happen?

28:08

And that is probably

28:10

the biggest trap of scientology.

28:13

You look around, because David Biscavige

28:16

has a lot less redeeming qualities

28:18

than they'll run Hubbard. He's got

28:20

a lot of a lot more bad

28:23

uh traits and a

28:25

lot less sort of charismatic

28:30

nice things that you could say

28:32

about him. And you look around, you

28:35

go, but there's people there that have been there

28:37

for twenty years and that he's beating

28:39

them, and he's abusing them. He spits

28:41

on him, he calls him names, he cursses

28:43

them out, He has him dig

28:45

shit out of the toilets, you

28:47

know, etcetera, etcetera. Why do they

28:49

put up with it? The reason they put

28:52

up with it is because they have been

28:54

indoctrinated to believe

28:56

because they're somehow bad and they

28:58

haven't discovered what they're

29:02

evil is yet. But

29:04

if they keep working at it, they'll get

29:06

there. Right, They're

29:08

they're being punished for

29:11

a reason. You know, you

29:13

said something you said to really interesting

29:15

things previously, Mike, where

29:17

you said you alluded to something called

29:19

the prison of the mind for

29:22

for people who were practicing scientology.

29:25

And then you had also said, and I won't

29:27

do a compound question this time, promise, You had

29:30

also said that he uh, that David

29:32

Mimskevidge in in particular,

29:35

Uh, it seemed kind of

29:37

like an anomalous nutcase until you read

29:39

a book called The Sociopath

29:42

next stores. Was that the correct one? Yes,

29:44

brilliant book by Matha Sell. Dr

29:47

Matha Stell. Yeah. And from

29:50

what we understand about

29:53

the good and the bad of scientology, the

29:55

idea is that one

29:58

should one should be

30:00

able to control one's emotions.

30:02

So isn't that kind of a contradiction

30:05

that he would be so filled with

30:08

rage? It's a complete

30:10

contradiction. And it's a contradiction for

30:12

another reason. And there

30:15

is tons and tons and tons of contradictions

30:17

in scientology. You don't see them

30:19

until you get out. But think

30:22

about this what I just told you about

30:24

the the idea that

30:28

when something bad has happened to you, it's because

30:30

of your evil doing for

30:33

everybody except the guy at the top. For

30:37

the guy at the top, his

30:39

upset or bad stuff happening to

30:42

him is because everybody else

30:44

is doing bad stuff to him. For

30:46

everybody underneath, what's

30:48

that bad stuff happening to members because of

30:50

what they did? When it comes to David

30:53

Muscavite or l Ron Hubba knew

30:55

that that rule suddenly

30:57

goes out the window. That rule comes

31:00

David Muskevitch is being abused

31:03

by his subordinates. They

31:06

are seeking to upset him,

31:08

They are destroying him, and

31:11

they must look inside them, their hearts

31:13

and their minds to figure out

31:15

why they are seeking to destroy

31:17

this great man. And that was the

31:19

same with They'll run Hubbard, And you're

31:22

exactly right, Ben. The

31:25

idea that you fly off into

31:27

rage and start beating the crap out of

31:29

people is the example

31:32

of the pinnacle of the scientology

31:35

world, that this is what this

31:37

would be like. You know, the Dalai Lama.

31:40

The story start coming out about the Dalai

31:42

Lama that you know, he's got

31:45

a sword set in his in

31:47

his place over there, and when

31:49

someone displeases him, he chops their fingers

31:51

off, you know, like it's just

31:54

it doesn't it doesn't match

31:56

up with what is presented

31:58

to the world that scientology

32:01

teaches you and processes

32:05

you if you pay enough money

32:07

to eradicate irrational,

32:11

mis emotional responses

32:14

to the stimuli of

32:16

the world. And it's

32:19

a huge contradiction. Absolutely,

32:22

We're gonna take a quick break here and we'll

32:24

be back very shortly, and

32:34

we're back, Okay,

32:36

So I think that

32:38

right there. I haven't honestly,

32:41

I have not listened to much of your your show

32:43

Scientology Fair Game yet I cannot wait

32:45

to. But I imagine that you guys get

32:47

into quite a bit of discussion about uh,

32:50

David and a lot

32:52

of that on your show. Would that be correct? Yes? Absolutely?

32:55

That Okay, that's awesome. Again,

32:58

just from a group of guys who

33:00

have been making a show for a long time, that

33:02

sounds like a terrifying thought. Just

33:04

when you think about um

33:07

possible. You know, the things that scientology

33:09

has done in the past with its First Amendment

33:12

rights and uh large

33:14

bags of money that they have. UM,

33:16

but I want to I want to talk specifically about you.

33:19

UH an experience that your co host

33:21

of Scientology Fair Game, Leah Remedy

33:24

had at one point

33:26

in her life. She was well,

33:29

I guess I don't know force would

33:31

be the correct word. She was told to go to

33:33

a facility in Clearwater, Florida that you

33:35

mentioned for a thing that

33:38

was termed reprogramming. Can

33:40

can you talk to us about what that

33:43

term means within the context of scientology.

33:45

Yes, I'm gonna try and

33:47

do this without using too much Scientology's

33:51

in in the description. But

33:54

Leah made the mistake of questioning,

33:57

uh, the judgment and act of

34:00

at ease of Tom Cruise and David

34:02

Muscavige, and for that

34:04

that is a modal sin when

34:06

the world of scientology. She was

34:09

told that she must go to

34:11

the facility in clear Water at

34:13

her own expense and ultimately

34:15

cost a three hundred thousand

34:18

dollars, Yes, three

34:20

hundred thousand dollars two

34:24

receive this scientology

34:27

auditing and auditing in scientology

34:30

is is you

34:32

know what the term

34:35

that is used to describe scientology

34:38

counseling, and it is done

34:40

with this like little

34:42

Anita that's sort of like a little

34:44

lie detector. You hold these two

34:46

cans and it registers,

34:49

and the person is doing on the other

34:51

side sort of goes, oh, you've

34:53

got this, or you know, tell me about

34:55

that or whatever. Yeah, I want to know

34:58

um. And it was

35:00

to get her two

35:04

effectively admit that

35:06

everything, every critical thought,

35:09

every criticism that she had

35:12

was stemmed from something

35:15

that she had done. And

35:18

it's exactly what I was telling you before.

35:21

This is a very very

35:23

very fundamental concept in scientology.

35:26

It's not just if bad stuff happens

35:29

to you. If you talk shit about

35:31

someone, it's because you've done

35:33

bad things to them. So

35:37

it's it's the idea that

35:39

you're critical of someone because

35:42

you have done something to hurt

35:44

them or harm them in some way.

35:46

So now are seeking to make less of

35:49

them so that you can make

35:51

it seem that what you

35:53

are doing and saying is correct. It's

35:56

that the problem with it

35:59

is, and this is the problem with a

36:01

lot of scientology. There is some fundamental

36:04

truth to these things.

36:06

There is some kernel of truth.

36:09

There is not a lot in scientology

36:11

that is just shear bullshit. There

36:14

is a lot that is take a

36:17

thing and turn it into

36:19

something with a

36:21

twisted logic that changes

36:24

actually what

36:27

it in, what it started out being,

36:29

into something that is almost diametrically

36:32

opposed. And you see that in the

36:34

vowel too. You see

36:37

how Ranieri managed

36:39

to twist things that had

36:41

some fundamental concept

36:43

or idea in it, like being

36:46

living up to your word, and

36:48

turned that into being a slave. Now,

36:51

how you get from one to the other is

36:55

kind of astonishing, but he

36:57

managed to convince plenty of people to do

36:59

it, to the point where they were calling

37:01

up and asking am I allowed to eat in another

37:04

thirteen calgaries? Masta?

37:06

That is that is crazy.

37:09

But just like scientology,

37:12

something there was some fundamental

37:15

principle that's you could agree with,

37:17

or a truth that you could agree with, that

37:20

then gets built upon and built

37:22

upon and sort of interpreted

37:24

and twisted. And that's what happens with

37:27

these concepts in scientology. And

37:29

that's what Leo was doing there for

37:31

all that time. Was until

37:34

she had found

37:37

something that explained

37:40

every single critical thought

37:43

or comment she had made, she

37:46

was not free to go This sits

37:48

on another thing that's um

37:50

that's been often talked about, again from

37:52

outside reports and often

37:55

from former members of the organization,

37:57

which is the idea of essentially

38:00

being held against one's will

38:04

being allowed to go. Uh.

38:06

It makes me think specifically of the news

38:09

that we hear every so often about David M. Kvig's

38:12

spouse, who has been out

38:14

of the public eye for quite a long time.

38:16

Mike, is is it true that

38:19

this organization has or does hold

38:21

people against their will or is it more of like an

38:23

emotional peer pressure? Okay,

38:27

yes, this organization does hold

38:30

people against their will. They can be falsibly

38:33

held and restrained and prevented

38:35

from leaving. And I

38:37

have seen that happen and it

38:40

is so or people locked

38:42

in a room and not let out, that sort

38:44

of stuff. But that's not really

38:47

what the problem is. The problem

38:50

is people being held based

38:53

on their will because their will

38:55

has been bent and they

38:57

believe that what they are doing is

39:01

ultimately going to be their salvation.

39:04

That and you know, Larry

39:06

Wright in his brilliant book Going

39:08

Clear that he's subtitled Scientology

39:12

and the Prison of Belief, because

39:15

that's what it is. This

39:17

is the Stockholm syndrome. This

39:19

is the idea that

39:22

you can change someone's

39:24

thinking to the point where

39:26

they believe that staying

39:29

is best for them, even if staying

39:32

means being locked in a room and

39:35

sleeping on the floor and being tortured

39:38

every day, and you know, like

39:41

crazy stuff. But you

39:44

this is not limited to scientology either.

39:46

You know, look at the people that were at Jonestown,

39:49

Look at the people that are in fundamentalist

39:51

Mormon you know, Warren

39:54

Jeff's turning their kids

39:57

over to some widow pervert

40:00

to be to become their sex slaves.

40:02

I mean, this is and

40:05

this is a concept that is

40:08

very, very difficult to

40:11

to persuade anybody

40:13

to act upon. And what I mean

40:15

by that is so

40:19

often you see um

40:23

people seeking justice for

40:25

what has been done to them, and

40:28

courts and law enforcement don't

40:30

recognize that twisting

40:35

someone's mind is like is

40:38

just is just

40:40

as as damaging and

40:43

intrusive and

40:46

and inappropriate than

40:48

twisting their arm.

40:51

But because

40:53

it's not a physical you

40:56

know, there's no physical assault,

40:58

and the laura is about salt and battery.

41:01

There's no law about a salt and battery

41:03

of the mind. And so

41:06

a lot of this stuff goes and

41:09

and you know, people don't.

41:11

Courts don't know what to do with it. Do

41:13

Do they believe that someone was brainwashed?

41:16

Do they buy into the idea that such

41:18

a thing as brainwashing exists? Even

41:21

if you call it by another name, don't call

41:23

it brainwashing, mental coercion, whatever.

41:26

Is that something that is actionable? Is

41:28

that something that you can do something about?

41:30

Can you prove it? It's but

41:33

believe me, it is way

41:37

way more down. You

41:39

can recover from a twisted um,

41:41

it's much harder to recover from a twisted

41:44

mind. Well. And you can also take

41:46

a photograph of a bruise and

41:48

enter it into an exhibit in court. You

41:50

can't take a photograph of a of a damaged

41:53

mind or even prove. The burden

41:55

for proving like pain and suffering or

41:57

psychological damage so much higher

42:00

than being able to say, this person punched me, and

42:02

here's the proof, here's a polaroid, and it's done.

42:04

You know, you can't do it, um

42:07

And and this this leads to, I mean,

42:09

quickly, just to follow up, clearly, you and Leo

42:12

were able to disconnect, you know, and

42:14

and go on with your lives, uh,

42:17

you know, but still that has resulted

42:19

as you being top

42:21

listed people of folks who can threaten

42:23

the church. I mean, you

42:26

know that to me is

42:29

is easy. Again, it's

42:31

the mind. It's the

42:34

twisting of the mind to believe

42:36

that you are foregoing your eternity,

42:39

that if you if you walk

42:42

away from this, you're losing your

42:44

family, you're losing your friends,

42:46

you're losing everything that you've ever known.

42:49

That if there's

42:52

something, I mean, these guys

42:54

managed to compartmental. I've heard Jun

42:56

travol To say this often, Well,

42:59

you know, I don't know everything that's going on.

43:01

Bullshit, I don't know everything that's going

43:04

on. Uh not really, I

43:06

don't know everything that's going on. But what

43:08

I do know is that scientology

43:10

has helped me. So why wouldn't

43:13

I continue to participate in something

43:15

that has helped me? And that

43:18

is a pretty unassailable position

43:20

to take, because who are you to say,

43:22

well, it hasn't helped you. Look at your dummy,

43:25

it hasn't helped you. But it

43:29

is also you

43:32

can ask John Travolta, well, have

43:34

you watched The Aftermath? Did

43:37

you read the did you read the article

43:39

in the Tampa Bay Times? Have you

43:41

read Lawrence Writes book? Why

43:44

would I do that? Why

43:47

would I want to read bad stuff

43:49

about something that has helped me. And

43:51

this is another thing that Scientology

43:53

and Nexium and

43:56

everyone else has made

43:58

a very a

44:00

sort of a study of how

44:03

do you persuade people not to

44:05

look at anything bad about you? How

44:08

do you persuade them that it

44:10

is harmful to them spiritually?

44:13

If they look at something bad, it's going

44:15

to detract from their progress

44:17

in Scientology, and ultimately

44:20

code code cost them more

44:23

money to have to undo

44:26

the bad effects of that on them.

44:29

And and when I'm saying

44:32

to you this, realize for

44:34

a scientologist, if they

44:36

go read US

44:39

magazine and there is a negative

44:41

story about Tom Cruise in there, or

44:43

Leah Remedy is interviewed in US magazine,

44:46

they are going to have to go in and pay

44:48

for the auditing that unburdens

44:52

them of the horrible sin

44:54

of having looked at something

44:57

negative about Scientology, because

44:59

that's regress them in their progress.

45:02

So many questions we may not get to all of them, But

45:04

this reminds me, Mike of the massive

45:07

dump of internal documents

45:09

from Wiki leaks a few years

45:12

back, which I know was a huge deal

45:15

inside the organization. I can only imagine,

45:17

but definitely outside the organization, And

45:20

we were stunned when we

45:22

realized that people who were

45:25

in the organization, we're being told,

45:28

look, this is out there, but don't

45:32

read it, you know what I mean, treated as

45:34

though it doesn't exist.

45:36

And uh,

45:37

I see

45:39

now the financial incentive

45:42

inherent there. You

45:45

had earlier said Scientology

45:47

is worth three billion

45:50

dollars with a lack of oversight.

45:53

Uh. Do people ever reach a

45:55

point in the organization?

45:57

Do they progress to a point where there are no law

46:00

younger being asked to

46:02

pay money for audits or anything

46:04

like that.

46:10

It's a gift. Seriously,

46:14

No, No, you can reach the very

46:16

top of the Scientology bridge

46:18

to total freedom and then

46:21

be told, oh, sorry, we

46:23

found something new. You need to go back

46:26

and start over. And this

46:28

is something that Nixium has too.

46:31

I was speaking to Sarah Evanson the

46:33

other day and she told me, she said,

46:35

do you know we had to redo our

46:38

training. We'd get all, we get our scoff

46:40

or whatever those things sash and

46:43

then they'd come out and say, oh no, you

46:45

have to go back and redo it all and

46:47

you have to pay again. And it's the same

46:49

thing in Scientology. You have to redo

46:52

it. And we got we found some new

46:55

I'm just formally unknown

46:57

piece of information from l. Run Hubbard

46:59

that was buried in someone's suitcase

47:02

under their bed somewhere, and

47:04

suddenly, now everything

47:06

that you did before has to be redone.

47:09

And not only that, we

47:11

now have a new fundraising program.

47:14

We have to buy new facilities

47:17

for every church in the world. And they

47:19

we call these ideal Organs.

47:22

And Scientology has been

47:24

opening these buildings around

47:26

the world for the last twenty years

47:29

on a theory that David Bis

47:31

Scavenge presented a Scientologists

47:33

that in order for Scientology

47:36

to truly expand, it had

47:38

to have buildings and facilities

47:41

that would allow all aspects

47:44

of scientology to be presented in an

47:46

appropriate fashion for everyone.

47:48

So we need new buildings

47:51

and they have to be x number of square feet

47:53

and it's gonna cost twenty million dollars

47:55

and blah blah blah blah. So pay out

47:58

and this pay

48:00

up for that and for

48:02

the another thing called the International

48:05

Association of Scientologists,

48:08

which is a uh

48:12

is a scam. It's just a scam. It's

48:15

like scientologists believe that

48:17

giving money to the International Association

48:19

of Scientologists is helping educate

48:21

children in Africa or save

48:24

people from hurricanes, or you

48:27

know, do good work for the

48:29

the victims of earthquake

48:32

in Haiti or whatever. And

48:34

it's bullshit. It does not happen.

48:37

The most that happens is they go and shoot

48:40

a video and then they show everybody, look

48:42

at this video. We got five people in this video,

48:44

but there were thousands more that you just can't

48:46

see. And keep

48:49

giving us money, and we will give you

48:51

these gaudy bowling pin

48:53

bowling trophies and start

48:56

calling you Platinum Excalibur

48:58

something or other or Platinum

49:01

Meritorious Patron

49:03

of the Gluteus Maximus

49:05

or like it's it's

49:08

like these bizarre, absurd

49:11

names and people

49:14

hand over ten

49:17

fifty million dollars. And

49:20

like I said, with no oversight, scientology

49:23

never has to show its books. They never have

49:25

to show tithing, right, And isn't

49:27

that basically the same thing as tithing to a church,

49:30

like well, if if

49:32

tithing, well, you typically you

49:34

think of tithing as like ten percent. If

49:36

tithing was fifty, that's more

49:38

of the scientology model fifty

49:41

or more. Like Scientology

49:44

is ruthless about getting

49:46

money. Go take a loan, go,

49:49

you know, get cash in your

49:51

your college fund, get your

49:53

stocks, sell your stocks,

49:56

sell your house, do whatever, get

49:58

us the money now. But us, this

50:00

money right now is going to save the

50:02

world. They've been saying

50:05

that for fifty years is and things

50:07

aren't going so good. Our

50:10

conversation with Mike Render

50:12

continues and it goes in some

50:16

fascinating to a degree

50:18

disturbing places,

50:21

so much so that we did not want to

50:23

cut any of it, and we have decided

50:26

to make this a two part

50:28

episode. We promised that this is

50:30

going to be worth it. We hope that you

50:33

join us for Part two of

50:35

this interview, which is coming out later

50:38

this week. In the meantime,

50:40

we highly recommend checking out

50:42

Mike and Leah's new podcast,

50:45

Scientology Fair Game. Yeah.

50:48

There, you can find deep dives

50:50

into so many of the incredible stories

50:52

that Mike and Leah have from their time

50:54

in Scientology. So definitely worth

50:57

giving both part two of our episode

50:59

with my and the entirety

51:01

of Scientology Fair Game your

51:04

full attention, absolutely, and

51:06

if you want to continue the conversation that occurred

51:09

here today, head on over to Here's

51:11

where it gets Crazy our Facebook group.

51:13

You can you know, comment in there, respond

51:16

to somebody else, meet some other conspiracy

51:18

realists. You will enjoy your time, we assure

51:20

you, as long as you use Facebook or

51:23

you're willing to, I guess. Or

51:25

you can find us on Twitter, where we are also conspiracy

51:28

stuff, or Instagram

51:30

where we're conspiracy stuff show. Visit

51:33

us on YouTube while you're

51:35

on the internet if you want to see our

51:38

excerpts from our recent episodes,

51:41

or if you want to see our original

51:44

deep cut things that are intros

51:46

to rabbit holes galore, Uh,

51:49

including piece on Operations

51:52

snow White, which we which we

51:54

may may mention a little

51:56

more in depth in our interview.

51:58

And I think there's one called a Wednesday

52:00

vlog. Something has a title something

52:02

like that. I can't remember exactly, but it's

52:05

a video on that channel with Ben

52:07

in a parking like underground

52:09

parking deck two.

52:11

We're discussing scientology

52:13

and I can't recall exactly what it is, but find

52:16

it. Oh yeah, those are the days when

52:18

we were we were literally sneaking

52:21

around the office film me

52:23

wherever we could. Uh. You can

52:25

also, if you feel so inclined,

52:27

leave us a review on

52:30

Apple podcast or iTunes. Uh.

52:32

It makes a big difference every

52:34

time that there is a five star

52:36

review. Uh.

52:39

Our boss calls us and says

52:41

that I am one week

52:43

further away from being fired. Yeah, and

52:45

then angel gets its wings and my son

52:48

says, good chop, dad, I

52:50

love you. Three amazing

52:53

things that happened. You have the

52:55

power. And uh, if you are

52:57

anti internet but profull

53:00

boy, do we have news for you.

53:03

You call our number. It is one eight three

53:05

three S T D W y

53:07

t K. Leave a message

53:10

you may get onto one of our new

53:12

listener male episodes that come out weekly. So

53:15

make sure you you leave your

53:17

name or not, and tell us if you're

53:19

comfortable with us using it or not. Just

53:22

really give us all of all your comfort

53:24

level stuff everything. Uh, and

53:27

we'll we'll see what we can do. We're

53:29

very very much looking forward to hearing your stories

53:31

from this, especially if you have ever

53:34

been involved in scientology

53:36

in one way, shape or form ever

53:39

in the past or are now. We just want to we want

53:41

to hear from you. But what do you do if you hate

53:43

phones? What do you do if you

53:46

hate social media? It's

53:49

a pressing question for our times, boy,

53:52

is it ever? Well, there's a way you

53:54

can send us a good old fashioned email.

53:56

We are conspiracy at I heart

53:58

radio dot com. Yeah. Stuff,

54:18

They Don't Want You To Know is a production of I

54:20

heart Radio. For more podcasts from

54:22

my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

54:24

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

54:26

your favorite shows.