0:00

It finally happened. The

0:02

US government has issued

0:04

their latest report on

0:07

what they call u a P S Unidentified

0:09

Aerial phenomenon the rest of us, all

0:12

the UFOs. It should go

0:14

without saying, but we'll say it. Everybody

0:17

at the stuff there. What you know. FAM was

0:20

massively excited when

0:22

this released, and we spent a lot of

0:24

time wondering what, if any

0:26

revelations this report would contain,

0:29

and then it sent us off on

0:31

our own rabbit hole. Guys, we started

0:33

looking at all of our old UFO

0:36

episodes, all the ones from the past, and

0:39

uh, they kind of build toward

0:42

towards the same case that the U a P report

0:45

makes. I think, Oh, I think you're right. I'm

0:48

I made a silly analogy in an email chain

0:50

earlier. I felt like we were kids

0:53

standing outside of our house. If let's

0:55

imagine that we're all a family

0:58

and we can hear the sound

1:01

of an ice cream truck, but it always

1:03

seems like it's a couple of blocks away. You

1:05

can always hear it, and we just we

1:07

were just standing there day and night waiting

1:10

and it never came. And then it did

1:13

and we got nine pages

1:15

of ice cream. Yeah, if

1:17

you count like the title of page

1:20

of ice cream. I hope at least

1:22

one of them is one of those droopy, gumball

1:24

eyed SpongeBob ice cream bars

1:26

that are so cool looking on the rapper but terrifying

1:29

looking in person. They freaked me out.

1:31

But it's

1:33

speaking of freaking out. Our

1:36

first episode here is the

1:38

story of Betty and Barney

1:40

Hill. This is quite literally

1:43

the UFO abduction case

1:45

that changed the conversation

1:48

every You can roughly categorize

1:51

all stories of UFO counters into

1:54

like before the Hill case

1:56

and after the Hill case. And we're

1:59

really excited because we did not go

2:01

into this endeavor alone. We spoke

2:03

with the one and only Toby

2:05

Ball, friend of the show and the

2:08

creator of podcasts

2:10

that dives deep into the story

2:12

of the Hills. That's right, it's called Strange Arrivals.

2:15

You're gonna learn all about it in this episode,

2:17

and all about the Benny and Barney Hill story.

2:19

We highly recommend you continue

2:21

listening from this point forward. All

2:24

right, we'll see you on the other side. There's

2:27

more coming after this. Get ready for a

2:29

bunch of UFO episodes. From

2:31

UFOs to psychic powers and government

2:34

conspiracies. History is riddled

2:36

with unexplained events. You can

2:38

turn back now or learn

2:40

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

2:43

production of My Heart Rady,

2:55

Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

2:57

my name is Noel. They called me that, and

3:00

we're joined as always with our super

3:02

producer Paul Michigan control decads.

3:04

Most importantly, you are you,

3:07

You are here, and that makes this

3:09

stuff they don't want you to know.

3:12

Interestingly enough, uh, many

3:14

of our fellow listeners have written into

3:17

us on a regular basis over the years asking

3:19

us to cover more things

3:22

about UFOs, whether that's

3:24

just unexplained aerial phenomena, whether

3:26

that's uh, you know, allegations

3:29

of visitations by extraterrestrial

3:32

or even extra dimensional entities. Uh.

3:34

And we've we've taken a swing at

3:36

a lot of it. But today we're bringing

3:39

out the big guns. In

3:41

fact, you could say today's episode

3:43

concerns the most important

3:45

UFOs story in American

3:48

history. It's a strange, twisting

3:50

tale. It begins all

3:52

the way back in nineteen sixty one, but

3:55

it's a story that has ramifications

3:57

which continue to influence the

3:59

world old of UFO research here

4:02

in the modern day. That's right, and

4:04

today we are not going to tackle

4:06

this alone. We have brought along

4:09

and are joined by a journalist and

4:11

author. His name is Toby Ball. He

4:13

is the host of the new show Strange

4:16

Arrivals that is executive produced

4:18

by arn Makeey. By the way, it's a new show

4:20

on our network that delves deep into the Betty

4:23

and Barney Hills story.

4:25

Thanks for coming on the show, Toby. Thanks for having

4:27

me on. Now, Toby, before

4:29

we begin today's show, we would

4:31

be remiss if we didn't mention

4:34

the fact that you are,

4:36

in addition to being an author and a

4:38

journalist, you are also a

4:40

podcaster in the world of crime. Is

4:42

that correct? That's right. For about

4:45

five and a half years, I've been one of the four

4:48

co hosts of Crime Writers on

4:50

and every week we review

4:53

a couple of true crime properties.

4:55

Occasionally um fictional

4:57

crime as well, if that happens to be hot

4:59

at the moment. So podcasts,

5:02

you know, HBO series, documentaries,

5:05

things like that, and I would just say that,

5:07

uh, they're very honest in their reviews.

5:10

They've they've done several of it. I know Nolan

5:12

I have made and U Ben you

5:14

might have one coming down the pike soon too. They're

5:17

really honest, and it is a It's a great

5:19

show if you want to get an objective

5:21

take. Dare we say brutally honest? Sometimes

5:26

sometimes I think Nolan I have both

5:28

felt that before, felt the wrath. But

5:32

I mean, you know it's worth a listen. Did

5:34

you did you work on the

5:36

Oregon Murder? I did? I did. Yeah,

5:39

Yeah, I think you were the one that you were the one that dug

5:41

it, but everybody else hated it apparently. Actually

5:44

I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it. But yeah,

5:46

you and I spoke a little bit, and I know that you, uh,

5:49

you stood up for it, and I really appreciate them. Yeah,

5:51

I I did. I actually did really like that one.

5:53

Um awesome, But that's not

5:55

what we're talking about. To No, it's not. And I

5:58

want to be the first to say I really

6:00

like Strange Arrivals, which is what we are here

6:02

to talk about. It's such a lushly sound

6:04

designed and soundscaped storytelling

6:07

kind of bordering on true crime.

6:09

It feels like a mystery kind of. There's

6:11

this wonderful atmosphere to it. Your narration

6:13

is super solid, the writings great, all the

6:16

archival stuff really enriches the experience,

6:18

and you know, kudos for for the first episode.

6:20

I can't wait to hear more. New episodes

6:22

are out every Tuesday. As we record

6:25

this, we should note to be

6:28

strange arrivals. It

6:30

addresses, as you have mentioned,

6:32

Matt, it addresses the story of

6:35

Betty and Barney Hill. Now, a

6:37

lot of people in our audience today

6:39

no sort of the the broad

6:41

strokes of some aspects

6:44

of the tale, or they've at least heard

6:46

the name right the Hill

6:48

case mentioned, But we were hoping

6:51

we could begin today with a little bit

6:53

closer look at the overall

6:55

lay of the land. Uh. On this show,

6:57

we always like to start with the fact.

7:00

So for the here are the facts portion of our

7:02

show, could you give us maybe

7:04

just a broad outline

7:07

of of what the story is.

7:09

It starts on September nineteenth,

7:12

n right, yes, so

7:14

what the base of the sort

7:16

of bones of the story are. Betty

7:19

and Barney Hill were a

7:21

mixed race couple from Portsmouth, New Hampshire,

7:24

professionals in their community, leaders

7:27

in the civil rights UH

7:29

movement in in our area

7:31

of New Hampshire. This I live in southeast

7:33

New Hampshire as well. UH. So

7:35

they went on a vacation. Uh.

7:38

They went to Niagara Falls, they went up to Toronto,

7:41

UM, and they were going to go and spend

7:43

a final night the night of September

7:45

nine in Montreal,

7:49

and for some reason UH, and there's

7:51

been a number of reasons given as to why

7:53

this was UH, they

7:55

didn't spend the night there. Instead, well

7:57

into the evening, they decided to draw

8:00

all the way back to Portsmouth, New

8:02

Hampshire, which was probably about a seven hour

8:04

drive at that time. So they

8:06

started heading south. They crossed the

8:08

border, they stopped at

8:10

a um A diner to

8:13

grab something to eat. As

8:15

they were leaving the diner, they noticed that it was about

8:17

a little bit after ten o'clock at

8:19

night, and they continued to head south

8:22

and they started to notice they saw a

8:25

light in the sky that seemed a little brighter than

8:27

others, and UH and Betty

8:29

in particular sort of fixated

8:31

on that. They stopped a couple of times.

8:34

It seemed as though it was following them.

8:37

And then they stopped one time

8:39

just north of a place

8:41

in the mountains called Franconia Notch. They

8:44

got out, they looked through binoculars, couldn't

8:47

quite figure out what it was, but it definitely

8:49

seemed odd. It wasn't another star.

8:52

Uh. They thought maybe it was a plane, um,

8:56

but weren't weren't quite sure

8:58

what to think. Got back in the are

9:00

They started to head down through Franconia Notch,

9:03

which is this area that

9:05

cuts between uh these two

9:07

sort of sets of mountains. Um,

9:09

it's very very steep on either side.

9:11

It feels it feels pretty um claustrophobic.

9:15

They pulled up to a place called the Old Man in

9:17

the Mountain, which uh is

9:20

no longer there. It actually uh crashed

9:22

to the ground in two thousand and three, I

9:24

think, but it used to be this this sort

9:27

of natural rock formation that looked like an old

9:29

Man. And they saw an actual

9:31

craft at this point with

9:33

with lights and it was hovering and

9:36

it wasn't making any noise, and

9:39

so they looked at it and then it it left

9:41

again and they got back into their

9:43

car, and then you know, the hearts are pounding. They

9:46

keep driving south through Fanconia Notch,

9:48

stopping every once in a while to to see

9:50

if they can see it. And they get a little

9:53

bit further south near a

9:55

tourist area called Indian Head, which

9:57

is another sort of natural rock formation

10:00

that looks a tiny bit I guess,

10:02

like an Indian head. And then you

10:04

know, they feel this thing whoosh over their car. They

10:07

stop their car in the middle of the highway. I mean

10:09

this is at night in very world New Hampshire,

10:11

so there's almost no traffic, there's

10:13

no ambient light, and they see

10:16

a craft hovering above a field. Barney

10:19

gets out. Uh, he approaches

10:21

the craft with binoculars and sees

10:24

beings looking back at him. He

10:26

panics, runs back to the car. They

10:30

take off down the highway. Uh,

10:32

there's a sense that the UFO

10:34

is following them. It's like sort of hovering

10:37

above them as they move. Uh,

10:39

they feel this here, this buzzing noise, and

10:41

feel like a little bit of a tinge in their bodies.

10:44

And then about thirty miles further

10:47

down the road they kind of come to you

10:49

know, they haven't said anything, they're

10:51

not really clear of time passing, but

10:54

suddenly they're down by uh

10:56

this town Ashelynd, New Hampshire, and

10:59

they wonder what happened. And so they've

11:01

had this strange experience and

11:03

they drive home basically

11:05

straight from there. They make a quick stop trying

11:07

to get some coffee, but they end up arriving

11:10

home, uh two

11:12

or three hours later than they're expecting to

11:14

arrive home. They get there, they

11:17

unpacked their car. They notice

11:19

a few interesting things. They

11:21

Betty's dresses torn, Barney's

11:24

shoes are scoffed, their watches

11:27

have stopped at identical times,

11:30

and they they called Betty's

11:32

sisters. Neighbor was

11:34

a physicist, and they for whatever

11:37

reason, Betty thinks that maybe

11:39

he'll have some insight into this. He

11:41

suggests they go and they put a compass

11:44

over uh their car to

11:46

see if there's any strange magnetism.

11:49

UH. They apparently do this over the trunk where

11:51

these bright spots and

11:53

the compass starts spinning wildly.

11:56

So there was all these little pieces of what

11:58

they considered to be evans that something strange

12:01

had happened during that

12:03

time. And then about

12:05

ten days later, Betty

12:08

has this series of very very intense

12:11

nightmares about being brought aboard

12:15

UH an alien spacecraft

12:17

and having sort of a medical

12:19

examination done to her on the spacecraft

12:22

by aliens, and it is

12:24

very disturbed by this. She

12:27

tells this story UH

12:30

to a variety of people, including

12:32

her supervisor. She apparently, I guess

12:34

used to have tea with her supervisor

12:37

and her sister, and she she tells

12:39

him about these nightmares she's having, and

12:42

her supervisor, uh, for

12:44

whatever reason, says,

12:46

you know, maybe you know, maybe they're

12:48

not just nightmares. Maybe you're actually remembering

12:50

something that actually happened really really

12:53

quickly. So this is so, I mean, this is

12:55

you're you're going through like

12:58

all of these things that have happened

13:00

and so far through all of this except

13:02

with the exception of a few extra

13:04

people there. These are the personal experiences

13:07

of two people and the stories that

13:09

we're getting from two points of

13:11

view right there, or were the only

13:13

two people that we are to believe right now, curly

13:15

are Betty and Barney about what's happened

13:18

besides the neighbor and you

13:20

know the supervisor right right,

13:23

So there wasn't any other sort

13:25

of corroborating witness to

13:27

see anything that night they did,

13:30

you know, they pretty immediately started telling

13:32

people about what they had seen, you

13:35

know, So it's not this isn't something where two years

13:37

later there's like, oh, by the way, you know, two

13:39

years ago we saw this thing. They they

13:42

get in touch with a UFO

13:44

investigation group called Nightcap, which

13:47

was pretty big at the time, um, and they

13:49

send an astronomer to come

13:52

and interview them, um, and he

13:54

writes up a report. But at the time,

13:56

it really is the

13:59

extent of it is seeing this light in the sky

14:02

and then having this very very

14:04

intense experience

14:07

in this field by the Indian

14:09

Head resort and then heading home.

14:12

And that's kind of what they

14:14

remember, uh, served

14:16

consciously throughout the whole thing, and they you

14:18

know, they draw a picture of what they saw. Betty

14:21

writes down a narrative of her dreams nightcap.

14:24

By the way, for anyone who's interested, was

14:26

a thing called the National Investigations Committee

14:29

on Aerial Phenomena, and it was active

14:32

roughly nine fifties to the nineteen

14:34

eighties. So this was a real this

14:37

was a real prime time heyday

14:39

for the organization. I

14:43

guess we would sum up then for

14:45

our or look at these unusual

14:47

instances. So so Betty

14:49

and Barney see this anomalous thing.

14:52

Uh. They also, uh,

14:55

when they kind of come to out of

14:57

a fugue state, they've

14:59

lost time. Would it be fair to say that from

15:01

their account they have lost time?

15:04

Yeah, they absolutely think that. I think

15:06

sort of the the unusual

15:09

nature of the whole experience

15:11

makes the lost time part of it

15:14

seemed not as like that seems

15:16

to kind of fall back as compared

15:18

to seeing, uh, you know,

15:20

a spacecraft in the middle of a field, but

15:23

as time kind of goes on um,

15:25

and especially after she has those dreams,

15:27

that is something they're like, huh, you know,

15:30

that is kind of weird that it took

15:32

an extra two hours to get home. What what

15:34

went on there? I'd like to maybe

15:37

bracket this just for a second, because

15:40

what what you've just outlined, uh

15:42

succinctly and and very well

15:45

is the is the order

15:47

of events in which they occur that

15:50

we that we know for sure per

15:52

Betty and Barney. For

15:55

many people this would

15:57

probably remain the most in

16:00

explicable, strangest experience

16:02

of their adult lives. But

16:04

this is just sort of the beginning

16:07

of the tale. And one thing I like, without

16:09

spoiling strange arrivals, one thing I

16:12

I was surprised to find

16:14

and fascinated by, was there's

16:16

a segment early on in the

16:18

podcast where you talk a bit about

16:21

your own personal experience.

16:23

I think it's at the very beginning of

16:26

the very first episode. Could

16:29

you could you tell us a little

16:31

bit just so we have something to compare with Betty

16:33

and Barney. Could you tell us a little bit about

16:35

your experience and what you see

16:37

as differences or commonalities and maybe

16:40

whether that inspired you to pursue

16:43

this show. Yeah, so, um strange

16:46

arrivals. Actually it starts with me

16:48

talking about uh an experience

16:51

and experiences is maybe putting it too strongly,

16:54

Uh, but uh, I

16:56

was having So my family's got a

16:58

place up on an eye is land in a

17:01

lake in New Hampshire called Lake Winnipesake,

17:04

which is you know, it's about an hour and a half,

17:07

two hours from where Betty and Barney had

17:09

their experience. And

17:11

it was right around dusk and we

17:13

were having uh dinner and drinks

17:15

with a couple who are old

17:18

friends of ours, my wife and I and

17:21

uh my wife saw these

17:24

red lights sort of hovering above,

17:27

you know, sort of the hills that you can

17:30

see, uh from the porch of

17:32

our house. You know, it was

17:34

just strange. You know, I've been going up there

17:36

for fifty years and I hadn't seen

17:38

anything quite like that before. And

17:40

it was enough that we we walked down from

17:42

the porch, we walked onto our dock to get

17:44

a better look and

17:46

you know, the number of lights. I believe

17:49

it started with four and probably got up to about

17:51

seven red lights. And they were kind

17:53

of moving around and it wasn't

17:55

clear you know, there there's some

17:57

distance away, there was no noise, and

18:00

it wasn't clear if there are individual

18:03

things that were moving or whether

18:05

it was a larger thing that

18:07

was kind of you know, moving in its

18:10

aspect to us, so that we were getting a different

18:12

view of what it was. I mean, that was sort

18:14

of the illusion that we had.

18:17

And I just I just I checked. My

18:19

wife was checking. She wrote some notes about this afterwards.

18:22

Uh, and we watched it for twenty minutes, you

18:24

know, so it was a good long time that we were watching

18:26

this, you know, and it never got to be more

18:28

than just lights. You know, we never saw like an outline

18:30

of anything or ane of the lights seemed

18:33

to have uh

18:35

you know, more to them. So

18:37

what's what's kind of interesting is, you

18:40

know, while we're watching this, my buddy

18:42

and I are like, how I wonder what that is?

18:45

And my wife and and my buddy's

18:47

wife were like, oh, yeah, that's definitely that's

18:50

what those are. That's an alien spacecraft,

18:52

like no doubt about it. And then

18:54

you know, if you talk to us now, like

18:57

my buddy and I are, the way we remember

18:59

it ending is the lights just kind

19:01

of blinked out one by one, like they just kind

19:03

of disappeared. And

19:06

uh, my wife and and

19:09

uh and my buddy's wife are

19:11

both say that they took off at

19:13

high speeds. You know, they just kind

19:15

of took off and disappeared. But

19:17

there was movement involved. It wasn't just blinking

19:19

out. So this

19:22

has been a source of of some

19:25

some dispute at various times after a few

19:28

libations, um. And

19:30

so that was kind of it

19:33

was an interesting question to me. It's like, why did

19:36

half of us believe

19:39

right off the bat, It's like, wow, that must be something extraterrestrial,

19:42

and then half of us were like, it

19:45

could be just about anything, have no clue

19:47

what it is, but it's definitely not that um.

19:50

And that was kind of what got

19:52

me thinking about these kinds of

19:54

questions in general, like why are

19:56

some people uh skeptical

19:58

about these things? Why are the people more prone

20:01

to believe these things when you're looking at

20:03

exactly the same thing. Right, the evidence

20:05

that we had was identical. And

20:07

then based on that

20:10

that first instinct, our

20:13

memories of what happened are are are very

20:15

different. It's really fascinating. The whole idea

20:17

of like the fallibility of memory, I think is

20:19

a really interesting spin on this,

20:21

And especially when it was sort of split

20:23

between the believers and the nonbelievers

20:26

as to how you actually visually, you

20:28

know, interpreted this information like

20:30

and then took that and created

20:33

like, you know, this is this is this is this phenomenon.

20:35

I absolutely believe it. It's not such a leap

20:38

to think that. It's just really interesting

20:40

to me that And so what where did you guys

20:42

land on that? Like when you like, what do these debates

20:44

sound like over a few drinks like

20:46

that? How do you make your case? Was

20:49

it just okay I canna this podcast? Yeah?

20:52

Well you know it's uh, you

20:54

know, nobody budgets Basically, you know, people

20:57

dig in their heels and we have another beer and we dig

20:59

in our heels even further. And uh,

21:01

there really hasn't been any kind

21:03

of movement towards the center from

21:05

anybody. I mean, you just the memories, the

21:08

memory um

21:10

and and that's kind of what made it compelling to

21:12

me. Um. And when I was talking

21:14

to my friend about this podcast.

21:17

He had the same same feeling. It's

21:19

like it is, it is super strange that we

21:21

all, you know, at this point it's

21:23

what like six years ago. It's not that

21:26

long, UM, but our memories

21:28

of it are just are so

21:30

different, and there's just no

21:32

gift to anybody. Everybody is very clear

21:35

about what they remember. So

21:38

I was trying to figure out a

21:40

way of like, how do you approach like

21:43

examining this, UM And

21:45

that was when I kind of latched onto the Betty

21:47

and Partey hillcase. Uh, partly

21:50

because I live UM

21:52

in the same town as the University of New Hampshire and

21:54

they've got the Betty and Partney Hill papers

21:58

and um a lot of other

22:00

kinds of documents, audio

22:03

documents, video documents, uh,

22:05

photographs, So it seemed

22:07

like it seemed like kind of a natural as

22:10

a way of taking a look at it, because it does

22:12

bring up a lot of the same issues about

22:15

you know, perception and memory and

22:18

how how do you approach how

22:21

do you approach making sense of things that

22:23

that you experience that don't

22:25

have an obvious explanation. And

22:28

we'll be back with our discussion with Toby

22:30

Ball after a word from our sponsor welcome

22:39

back to the show. Now let's keep

22:41

you on with this conversation. You know,

22:44

we're we're talking about belief here. Something Ben

22:46

has stated on this podcast before.

22:50

I'm gonna paraphrase, But each

22:53

of our understandings of the

22:55

world, it's only the information

22:57

that we've ever taken in, right, You. We

22:59

can't no things necessarily

23:02

that we've never accepted

23:04

it like as as information into our

23:06

brains. So each of us

23:08

has that different perspective of

23:11

all the information we know and then applying

23:13

it to what we're observing. Right, That's

23:15

kind of what you're exploring here. But

23:21

the story really takes a turn at the point where

23:24

we left off a little while ago there when

23:26

we're getting into the concept of

23:30

digging into someone's brain, putting

23:32

someone back into a fugue like state, and

23:34

digging through their brain to pull out

23:37

new information that hasn't

23:39

been stated as a memory. Right. Yeah,

23:41

That's that's why I would ask you specifically,

23:44

Toby, um, do you think that,

23:47

uh say, hypnotic regression

23:50

might help solve this long standing

23:52

disagreement about what you saw? I

23:57

would it would be interesting to find out

23:59

I uh my sense is having

24:02

uh talked to a lot of people about hypnotic regression

24:04

at this point is that we would probably probably I'll

24:06

tell the exact same stories. It's

24:10

your your recall through hypnotic regression

24:12

is it's it's making

24:14

it's made with the same sort of fallible things

24:17

that you're conscious memory is

24:19

made of, you know, when you're when you're thinking about

24:21

things. So it's it's taking the same

24:23

basic elements but just

24:25

in sort of a different state of consciousness to

24:28

recreate them. And I

24:30

didn't want to, uh apologize if

24:32

I'm derailing the conversation here, guys,

24:35

but I do mean it as, let's say,

24:37

um sixty joking with

24:39

you and well

24:42

what if, because that's, uh,

24:44

that's exactly what you're setting up, Matt, right,

24:46

like the the idea that the Hills

24:49

eventually um and I

24:51

think we we have a little bit of a of

24:53

a time gap there, but eventually, uh,

24:55

how inspired in part by Betty's

24:58

dream journal, inspired of course by these

25:00

unusual events, they

25:02

they also uh turned

25:05

to hypnosis. Right, is it hypnotic

25:07

regressions specifically or just I'm

25:10

not a hypnotist. I don't know the difference. So

25:12

Barney had already had

25:16

um some anxiety issues

25:19

and I believe it's already

25:21

seeing a therapists. But regardless

25:23

of whether he was before or not, he

25:26

does end up seeing a therapist, but

25:28

they're not really talking about alien stuff. They're talking

25:30

about other issues in his life. But he does

25:32

bring up this this thing that happened

25:35

um, and his

25:38

therapist recommends that you go down and see

25:41

a psychiatrist uses hypnosis,

25:43

whose name is Dr Benjamin Simon, who's

25:46

very well known for working with returning

25:49

soldiers who had PTSD. It

25:51

wasn't known as PTSC at the time, but

25:53

but that's what it was. So they go down

25:55

there and and they do

25:58

regression hypnosis. So what he as

26:00

as he says, you know, cast

26:02

yourself back to this date, tell

26:04

me what happened. And so they

26:07

start to go through this story, and

26:09

he starts them off in in Montreal

26:11

and going on the different steps of the journey.

26:14

But what they what they find is

26:17

that after this buzzing noise that I talked

26:19

about, after they have this uh sort

26:21

of intense experience with the

26:23

UFO in the field, they

26:25

both tell sort of versions

26:28

from their own viewpoints

26:31

of this same story

26:33

of their driving down the

26:36

highways Route three, they take

26:38

a turn off for some reason they don't really

26:40

know why. They take another turn onto

26:42

a dirt road where they're stopped

26:45

by six figures in the road and

26:47

they see this glowing light behind them,

26:50

and you know,

26:52

they're they're not quite clear what's going on.

26:55

But Barney turns off the car and then can't

26:57

turn it back on again, and

26:59

the figures break into two groups

27:01

come and take them from their

27:04

car and bring them

27:06

on to a bring him through the woods

27:08

and onto a spacecraft. Yeah,

27:11

they they get on a spacecraft and

27:14

don't the don't the people talk to them while

27:16

they're being pulled out like it's

27:20

it's interesting in that. So one

27:22

of the things that comes out of all this is Betty

27:25

has this very detailed, uh

27:29

story about this whole thing. Barney

27:33

has a much less detailed story,

27:35

and they both sort of agree that

27:37

that he was sort of put under the alien control

27:40

and then he had his eyes closed and it was very

27:42

scared. She, on the other hand, um,

27:45

you know, ends up talking to them,

27:48

um, and there was one who speaks

27:50

English with an English accent,

27:53

she says, sort of a foreign English accent,

27:56

and he's sort of trying

27:58

to reassure her that it's

28:00

gonna be fine. We're just gonna take you aboard the spaceship.

28:03

You don't have to worry, and then we'll bring you back and no harm

28:05

will come of you. And you

28:07

know, she's wary, as I

28:09

think anybody would be about being brought onto

28:11

an alien spacecraft. But

28:13

they do. They bring them aboard, and they

28:15

separate them into different

28:18

rooms and uh

28:21

they undergo you know, medical

28:24

uh, medical examinations at

28:26

the hands of a alien

28:29

who they call the physician um.

28:31

And he doesn't speak English either. There's

28:34

there's the leader who speaks English, the physician

28:36

who does the medical exams, and

28:38

then there's a whole bunch of you know, six

28:41

or seven sort of crew

28:43

members or whatever who speak

28:45

amongst each other, but not in

28:48

English or any language that

28:51

you know a human would understand.

28:53

Now you mentioned, you know, the divide that is

28:56

obviously even in in listeners to the show,

28:58

and even between the three of us, between you know, belief

29:00

and skepticism um. And

29:02

you know some people can kind of their grades

29:04

of that obviously, and you can change over over

29:06

the course of your life. Have you found that this research

29:09

and and looking into the story and going deeper

29:12

has changed you a little bit?

29:14

In terms of your belief or or made

29:17

you more skeptical. Um,

29:19

that's a really interesting question. I

29:21

feel as though I've

29:23

become more skeptical of my own memories

29:26

of things that seem

29:28

that seemed real. UM. And

29:31

I can kind of give you a quick example. I

29:34

my my sister has a story up

29:36

at that same island place where

29:39

when she was young, you know, three

29:41

or four, opening the

29:43

door from our kitchen to the outside and

29:46

seeing a raccoon hanging from a screen

29:49

and freaking out and then having

29:51

nobody believe her. And I

29:55

have this absolutely crystal

29:57

clear memory of being in the kitchen when that

29:59

happened, in her opening the door and looking

30:01

and seeing her back and then seeing the raccoon hanging

30:03

from the screen. But it

30:06

seems that that almost certainly did not happen.

30:09

It seems that she told me that story, and

30:11

I, you know, I was able to

30:13

picture it in my head so clearly that now it

30:15

seems like this absolutely concrete memory

30:18

that oh yeah, I was there when my sister opened the door and

30:20

saw the raccoon. But based

30:22

on her memory of it, like, we both can't

30:24

be right, and I'm pretty sure she's probably

30:26

the one who is And I just imagine

30:29

that happening so much. Uh,

30:31

So that's really been you

30:33

know, more than I would have expected myself

30:36

too. I've really taken a look at things that

30:38

have happened in the past that

30:41

I feel as though I remember

30:43

pretty well but don't necessarily

30:46

feel consistent with with other

30:49

pieces of reality, um, and

30:51

then sort of questioning if my

30:53

memory of that is accurate. So that

30:55

that's really been you

30:57

know, it's been kind of an eye opener, quite honestly. And

31:00

then when you apply it to the other part of my

31:03

other podcasting stuff, which is

31:05

about you know, true crime, and

31:07

you think about you know, people going

31:09

in front of going out trial and

31:11

having these witnesses with these

31:13

people's lives in their hands, and

31:16

just knowing that their memories are probably not

31:19

as accurate as they think they are. Is Uh,

31:21

it's sobering. We talked about this all the time,

31:24

and you know, we've all worked on true crime

31:26

shows as well, but how eyewitness accounts are typically

31:28

just awful. They're the worst kinds,

31:30

but they can absolutely convict somebody or

31:33

if you point somebody out in a lineup. And

31:35

then we've seen you know, experiments where people

31:38

um don't remember faces

31:40

or they kind of twist it to fit their own

31:42

narrative, or maybe they really want someone to go down

31:44

for something and so they convinced themselves that

31:46

that's the guy that did this or whatever. I mean,

31:49

it's really fascinating the way we're able

31:51

to almost delude ourselves, Like your raccoon

31:53

story is a form of that. It's it's

31:55

less conscious, but you basically

31:57

invented a narrative by believing

32:00

something so much that you created

32:02

this image in your mind that seemed very very

32:05

real. But now you've accepted Okay, I

32:07

think that was just It sort of speaks to the power

32:09

of belief, really, and how we're able to kind of fool

32:11

ourselves and trick ourselves into thinking that things

32:13

are are happening are real when they're absolutely

32:16

not. We'll

32:18

be back with more from Toby Ball after

32:20

a word from our sponsor and

32:28

we're back. So I

32:31

want to follow up with a question

32:33

here. To me, one thing that's fascinating

32:36

about the raccoon story

32:39

is, Toby, have you ever heard of something

32:41

called the Mandela effect? I

32:44

don't think so. So. Uh,

32:46

maybe fifty years from now you and I will

32:49

look back and think that we both did remember

32:51

it because it's a uh,

32:53

it's it's this fascinating concept

32:56

that's very close to what what we're talking about

32:59

today. Um wherein

33:01

people can become convinced in

33:03

a group that something has

33:06

happened and it didn't occur. It's named

33:08

the Mandela effect because the person who named

33:10

it they were in a group of people who

33:13

were certain that they knew um

33:15

Nelson Mandela had or

33:17

had not died and exactly when that happened,

33:20

and they were so surprised that

33:23

this was not the case at least in their current

33:25

timeline, that instead of just saying,

33:28

well, maybe we were wrong about it, they've

33:30

doubled down and said maybe they're having

33:32

a memory from a different timeline. The

33:35

stupidest version of that is that there's a whole

33:37

contingent of people that believe Shaquille

33:39

O'Neil played a genie

33:42

named Shazam in a movie,

33:45

but it was actually Kazam

33:47

I think was the name of the movie. If I'm mistaken, and

33:49

it wasn't Shaquila no Sinbad,

33:51

but it was actually Shaquille O'Neil, And correct

33:54

me on that one then. But that's my favorite example

33:56

of this. There's another one with the baron Stein Bears

33:58

versus the Baron's Stain Bears. So

34:01

many people believe it's spelled st e

34:03

i N and in their minds that's

34:05

like just that's all it's ever been. It's always

34:07

been the Barren steam Bears, but it's actually the Barren

34:10

Stain Bears. It's interesting. I

34:12

was actually tripped up on that one

34:14

a few years ago. Somebody pointed

34:16

that out to me. We did a whole episode on it, and I

34:18

don't think we've ever had more feedback episode

34:22

besides maybe the what

34:25

the sleep paralysis episode

34:27

maybe been? I think maybe we got right

34:29

right Matt sleep paralysis. It's

34:31

interesting because both the Mandela effect,

34:34

the what I've always called like the treachery

34:36

of memory, and sleep

34:39

paralysis, uh, the situation

34:41

wherein people experience vivid things,

34:43

often nightmares, or

34:45

the sensation that they are not in control of their

34:47

body while they attempt to slumber. Those

34:49

both could relate, in a way,

34:52

however, indirectly to the case

34:54

of Barney and Betty Hill. More

34:56

skeptical people in the audience, for instance,

34:58

might say that perhaps

35:00

Betty was experiencing

35:03

some form of sleep paralysis in her

35:05

dreams. But what we like

35:08

Toby. The question about the dreams is fascinating

35:11

to me because they're a whole other world. What

35:14

did Betty just have like a short

35:17

run of bad dreams or where they recurring dreams?

35:19

Did they change? What do we know about

35:21

her dreams? So it's interesting she actually

35:24

wrote them down in a

35:26

document called Dreams or

35:28

Recall, So she was already

35:31

kind of thinking about, you know, is

35:33

this dreams or is this actual memories of something

35:35

that happened that that's been repressed.

35:38

And so what she said is she

35:41

does she doesn't dream them in sort of chronicle

35:44

order, of chronological order

35:46

of of the way they happened. She

35:48

dreams them sort of out of order, and

35:50

then she puts them into order in

35:53

this document. And

35:56

and so they kind of stitched together, but

35:58

they don't follow one after the other. There they kind

36:00

of bounce around a little bit. And I don't

36:02

know, like I haven't come up with anything

36:05

that goes into any more

36:07

detail on on how that all

36:10

worked. You basically just get you

36:12

know, this is my compiling these

36:14

five dreams in a way that sort of makes

36:17

narrative sense going

36:19

forward. And and so it's this, you

36:22

know, it's this I imagine quite

36:25

distressing a series

36:27

of dreams again about being aboard

36:30

a spacecraft and and being

36:32

under the control of alien visitors

36:35

and having them, you know, examine

36:38

you, and and really you

36:41

know, you're you're sort of powerless

36:44

in the face of their technology,

36:47

and they also seem to have some kind of physical

36:49

control over you, even if they're not holding

36:51

on. It's interesting how that scenario

36:54

always is kind of the trope of

36:56

alien abductions. Like I kind of wonder

36:58

what the first one that has ever reported was

37:00

you happen to know anything about the history

37:03

of this scenario of being you know, probed

37:06

or examined, Like it didn't just come out of

37:08

nowhere, you know, like whether even if it's made

37:10

up, is somebody made it up first.

37:12

I'm fascinated by how this is a repeating

37:14

story we see all the time with these abduction

37:17

um remembrances. I guess so.

37:19

I think that's one of the interesting thing about

37:22

this case is that there

37:24

really wasn't anything quite like it beforehand,

37:26

and this sort of sets the narrative going forward,

37:29

you know, And and so most abduction

37:32

cases that follow

37:35

are are playing off this to a certain extent,

37:37

And and you know, it's like anything else

37:39

where. It escalates and escalates and escalates,

37:41

and then you end up in the eighties and nineties

37:44

with you know, people being de materialized

37:46

through walls and you know, uh,

37:49

you know, tens or hundreds of thousands

37:51

of people being abducted. But

37:54

before Betty and Barney Hill, there's really

37:57

only one case that was not

37:59

well known own at the time,

38:01

and it took place in Brazil, and

38:04

it was this guy named Antonio Villis

38:06

Bois who was abducted

38:08

and brought on a UFO and

38:10

and sort of a little twist on this has

38:13

a a sort

38:15

of sexual, uh

38:17

sexual encounter with a

38:20

alien like this small

38:22

female alien with bright red hair who

38:25

you know, screams like an animal

38:27

and rubs her belly and points

38:30

up to the stars and he takes it to me

38:32

and she's gonna take their

38:34

baby back to her home planet,

38:37

I guess, to raise him or whatever. This

38:39

hadn't really made it to uh,

38:41

the US unless you were like a real UFO

38:44

aficionado. So son Betty

38:46

and Barney, Um, and I think there

38:48

is a question that

38:51

that hasn't been answered about why this

38:54

sort of medical exam in particular,

38:57

h she talks about having a needle uh,

38:59

plug into our navel with

39:01

the idea that it has something to do with reproduction

39:04

or pregnancy. Different people have

39:07

different I think hypotheses, and

39:09

I think you can kind of, you

39:11

know, guess what they are about

39:14

why they would why should

39:16

be sort of fixated on that in particular.

39:19

But I don't know. I don't know. I mean, nobody's I

39:21

haven't read anything where people are like, this

39:23

is why these two people in particular

39:26

would be this concerned about, you

39:28

know, sexual matters when you're on

39:31

board a spaceship. So it's just a really good

39:33

question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. If

39:35

there's something deeper, I want to get into

39:37

that and try and tie it back

39:39

to their work

39:42

in the civil rights movement and

39:44

like try and compare or somehow

39:47

find a way to compare that. But before we do that,

39:49

we're talking about the how influential

39:52

this story was from

39:54

the you know, the abduction experience, what

39:56

actually happens when you're abducted, but also the

40:00

the extra supposed extraterrestrials

40:03

that did the abducting there

40:05

the descriptions of them change

40:08

quite a bit. Right over the course

40:10

of the oldest stories from

40:13

Betty and Barney. Yeah,

40:15

yeah. Um. So when it first

40:17

happened, immediately following

40:19

their sighting on on September

40:22

nine, they describe

40:24

seeing, you know, basically humans looking

40:26

back at them, humans who are wearing uniforms,

40:30

um, who are wearing caps some

40:32

of them. And so that's about

40:35

what you get up until the point where

40:37

they undergo hypnosis.

40:40

And then there's a slight change and

40:42

part of it is under hypnosis. Um.

40:45

You know, when Barney's describing being

40:47

in the in the field and looking

40:50

at these beings looking back at him,

40:52

he describes two of these beings.

40:55

One he describes as looking

40:57

like an irishman, um.

40:59

And he worked in Boston, and as an African

41:02

American, it was very clear

41:04

that he saw Irish

41:07

as being sort of agents

41:09

of racial animosity.

41:12

Uh. So this is like a stressful image to him.

41:15

The other one he describes as a Nazi. So

41:17

again it's this sort of a

41:20

figure that would cause him anxiety. Um.

41:23

And he actually talks in radio

41:25

interviews about how he didn't feel that

41:28

they were sinister, but that

41:30

the situation itself was sinister.

41:33

But the way he describes them, certainly to me, sort

41:35

of indicates that at some level

41:37

he thought it was they were sinister.

41:40

But this changes when they go aboard

41:43

the UFO and he he talks

41:45

about you know, basically you

41:48

know what you would think of as a gray

41:50

or sort of like a proto gray of like

41:53

you know, the slit mouth and the very small

41:55

nose or almost non existent nose,

41:58

and uh, you know, the big eyes. And

42:00

he even goes he has this very weird thing

42:02

about there being a film over the mouth that

42:04

makes this kind of weird, you know,

42:07

slurpy kind of noise. Uh,

42:09

and it's very you know, it

42:11

would be an alarming thing to open your eyes up to.

42:14

Betty, on the other hand, and her dreams, talks

42:16

about them as little guys with big noses

42:20

like Jimmy Duranty, and

42:23

people kind of say, well, she heard

42:26

what Barney's description was

42:29

and kind of changes her story a little bit

42:31

to fit his, uh not to mention

42:33

the fact that you know, people's reaction is

42:36

is that it's like, oh, like Jimmy Durranty and

42:38

you chuckle, like aliens like Jimmy Durranty,

42:40

How's that happened? So they come

42:42

out of this doing doing all

42:44

this hypnosis with this basic

42:47

idea of sort of

42:49

what the aliens look like, and it's sort

42:51

of on the way to being what we think

42:53

of now as a typical alien.

42:56

And they spend some time trying

42:58

to refine this, and they

43:00

end up working with a New Hampshire

43:02

artists named David Baker in the late

43:05

sixties, and he's sketching

43:07

drawings of of what Betty

43:10

and Barney think they look like. And they're getting

43:12

back to him, they're like, see sketches, and

43:14

they'll get back and they'll they'll say,

43:16

you know, make these changes. This isn't this

43:18

is the stuff that was wrong. And then he'll get

43:20

back with a new um,

43:23

a new sketch, and they

43:25

actually, you know, if at the UNH Library,

43:27

University of New Hampshire Library, they've

43:29

got the copies of those um

43:32

those sketches, and they're they're really they're

43:36

they're a little bit spooky, like in all

43:38

honesty, and they're just kind of

43:41

hazy and vague enough that they're very

43:43

evocative of this idea that you're kind of

43:45

like trying to bring up a memory um

43:48

in a way that I thought was really kind of cool

43:50

and interesting. And the other the other

43:52

piece that they try to put together to

43:55

sort of document their memories of

43:57

this is this strange

43:59

little bust called

44:02

JR. And it was

44:04

something that Betty commissioned a

44:06

woman named Marjorie Fish,

44:09

who plays a big part in the story in another way,

44:12

to create and it's

44:15

it's like a little bust of a

44:18

gray, you know, like a primitive

44:21

version of a gray. And it's about

44:23

the size of a small human head. I've

44:25

held it. It's got a little hole in the back from

44:28

where she knocked it off pedestal

44:30

during a talk she was giving in Cincinnati,

44:33

and it's it's just a very very odd

44:36

thing, but but it is. I mean, that's

44:39

that's what she says is the closest representation

44:42

to what she saw during

44:44

that experience and that classic

44:46

kind of gray alien image

44:48

that is just so ubiquitous

44:50

and pop culture. Now this is kind of the origin

44:53

of that, Like this is really where

44:55

that kind of came into existence. The story.

44:58

Yeah, so this is the first time I think it's been put

45:00

forward as being a um,

45:03

you know, an actual alien, like I saw an

45:06

alien and that's what it looked like. There's

45:08

been uh people have

45:10

tried to say where where did they get

45:12

this vision? And they point to a

45:15

there's an episode of the Outer Limits

45:18

that ran just a couple

45:21

of weeks before they started Hypnosis, and it

45:23

was called the Bolero Shield. And

45:26

it's got this alien in

45:28

it that kind of looks

45:31

like a gray It looks

45:33

very loosely. Yeah, I mean, I think

45:35

you the only way you can really make it work

45:39

is if you try and describe it and

45:41

then somebody hears it and then they draw

45:43

something that sort of looks a little

45:45

bit like it. You might come up with the gray,

45:47

but it's not so close. And then I've actually

45:50

heard Brian Dunning from Skeptoid

45:52

had heard from somebody that there was another

45:55

Twilight Zone episode that was about a

45:57

year and a half before that

46:00

that was called, um, hocus

46:02

Pocus and Frisbee that

46:05

has another similar kind of

46:07

I mean, this is all this is stuff from like, you

46:09

know, the early sixties.

46:11

So the alien is basically

46:14

a guy in a mask, and I think in hocus

46:16

Pocus and Frisbee, he's actually wearing a suit while

46:18

he's being an alien. Uh,

46:21

And it's it's all, it's kind of ridiculous,

46:23

but it does have the basic

46:25

idea of big eyes, not

46:28

much of a nose, just a little slip

46:30

for a mouth. So for what it's worth.

46:34

Another fascinating detail

46:36

that ends up coming out of the hypnosis

46:39

session sessions and the

46:42

memories then that are kind of

46:44

brought back from

46:46

the time that Betty I think it is particularly

46:49

Betty when the time that she supposedly

46:51

spent on this spacecraft UM

46:55

was that she saw some kind

46:57

of dotted lights

46:59

or line of light which she interpreted

47:02

to be I believe a star

47:04

map. Is that correct? Yeah? So

47:06

while she's after she gets

47:09

her exam, uh,

47:11

she apparently gets quite comfortable uh

47:14

and starts having a conversation with this alien.

47:16

She calls the leader and

47:18

she asked him, you know where did where did

47:20

you come from? And his response

47:23

is to sort of

47:25

pull out this what they call

47:27

a star map UM and

47:30

apparently is in some ways a three

47:32

D type thing UM.

47:35

Regardless, he pulls it out and

47:38

she says, well, which one is yours?

47:40

And he says, well, can you point

47:42

out where your son is on

47:45

on this map? And she says now, and

47:47

he says, well, then it doesn't make any

47:49

difference, right, like, you know, you can't orient yourself,

47:51

So he puts it away. So she tells

47:54

this story under hypnosis and

47:56

Dr Simon, Uh,

48:00

the hypnotist. It's just intrigued

48:02

by it, and says, you know, sometime

48:05

when you're not hypnotized, if you if

48:07

you want to, why don't you draw

48:10

that map that you saw. So she

48:12

draws the map later, and

48:16

it's you know, I think it's twenty

48:18

one sort of circles

48:21

of various sizes, and some of them are connected

48:23

by lines, and some of them are connected by

48:25

more than one line. And so

48:27

this is a star map. So this is supposed to

48:29

be a exact replica of

48:32

what she saw on board. And

48:35

what makes it the really interesting part of the story

48:37

is that this woman, Marjorie Fish, the

48:40

very same Marjorie Fish who did the bust

48:42

of Junior the alien. She

48:46

looks at it and thinks, maybe

48:49

I can use that to determine where

48:52

the aliens came from, Like what's the

48:55

what's the vantage point in the galaxy

48:57

from which this map was made. So

49:00

this isn't the pre you know, home computer

49:02

age. So what she does is

49:05

she gets uh the latest information

49:08

on stars and

49:10

their distance from the Earth and each

49:13

other um and she makes

49:15

these really really elaborate

49:17

models of the near galaxy

49:20

in her living room. And

49:22

what she does is she puts you know, black

49:25

paper or fabric around

49:28

the walls, and then from the ceiling she

49:30

hangs beads from thread

49:33

and it's all done with these like super

49:36

exact measurements to get

49:38

them as close

49:40

as possible to exactly where they would

49:42

be in space based

49:45

on what we knew. Then you

49:47

know this is you know, this takes place over a course

49:49

of years, and I think she does twenty or twenty

49:52

one different models, and then

49:55

she takes a camera and she's taking pictures from

49:57

different angles, right, so she's trying to get

49:59

it to match, get a picture that will match

50:02

the star map. And

50:04

so she gets to a point it's very

50:06

you know, as you can imagine, it's very detailed,

50:10

exacting, frustrating work. She

50:13

can't find a match. And

50:16

then um, this

50:18

new uh astronomy

50:21

catalog sort of the astronomy

50:23

Bible at the time comes out and

50:25

it's identified a few new stars and

50:28

there's three stars that when she adds them

50:30

to one of her models, it fits

50:32

the star map. Um,

50:35

and then so you

50:37

know what, what's her proponents

50:40

of the Hills story say, is you

50:42

know that Matt wouldn't have existed

50:46

as humans couldn't have made that map

50:49

with what they knew at the time that she drew it, Like

50:51

you had to have had advanced understanding

50:55

of the location of different stars in order

50:57

to create that map. Um.

51:00

So yeah, she she identified they're

51:03

sort of uh stars of origin

51:05

as Zeta Reticuli, which is a

51:08

a binary star system which

51:11

she thought could sustain a planet that

51:13

could have life. So it's really,

51:15

you know, uh

51:17

completely sort of obsessive

51:20

quest to uh

51:23

find a match in something

51:25

that would be really daunting

51:27

today with computers, but back then when

51:30

you're just like literally hanging beads from a ceiling.

51:33

Uh, it is unbelievable. And the pictures

51:36

there's no pictures on the internet, um,

51:38

but there are, or at least that I could find.

51:40

But they do have a lot of those pictures at

51:43

the University of New Hampshire Special

51:45

Collections and I've I've checked them out,

51:48

um, and it's it's really

51:50

it's quite something. It's interesting because it reminds

51:52

me of the old, the older

51:55

story of the Dogon tribe

51:57

that um, I think this was actually

51:59

after or the Betting and Barney

52:01

hillcase. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong,

52:04

but the Dogon tribe had

52:06

a similar experience being able

52:08

to UM name stars

52:11

or star system, a serious system

52:13

that was, according

52:15

to the tail uh, something that human

52:17

technology was not at the time able

52:20

to view. UH. And it's strange

52:22

to me because, you know, like

52:25

someone else pointed out earlier, we're seeing

52:28

tropes there. And now that we

52:30

know this story for the Dogon

52:32

may have happened or come to attention

52:35

after the Betty and Barney Hill story,

52:38

we have to we have to ask ourselves just

52:40

how profoundly the experience

52:43

of these folks has has informed

52:46

UFO of folklore UFO.

52:49

UM. I don't even want to say

52:51

tropes, but you know, has informed the commonalities

52:53

that people say they experience.

52:56

When you're in the course of your research here uh

52:59

and you're you're finding all these exclusive

53:02

materials that are, as you said, uh,

53:04

not available on the internet or

53:06

not widely available. Have you run

53:09

into other people researching

53:11

this story, or if you had anybody,

53:14

um, anybody contact you

53:16

with some kind of exclusive or

53:19

some kind of what they feel is an insight.

53:21

I guess what I'm asking Toby is have you

53:23

had other people who feel they've experienced

53:26

an abduction reach out to you? Uh?

53:29

Not yet, although I

53:31

I feel so that may come at

53:33

some point in the future as we as

53:36

strange arrivals kind of continues on. Um,

53:40

yeah, I haven't. It's the

53:42

Betty and Barney Hill archives

53:45

are as you imagine

53:48

the most sort of viewed things

53:50

that they have at the University of New Hampshire. There's

53:53

a big UFO conference

53:55

in Exeter, New Hampshire, which is about

53:57

twenty minutes away. Uh So

54:00

during that sort of week slash

54:02

weekend, a lot of people come in and if

54:04

only to see like the Junior

54:06

Boss star Betty's torn dress,

54:09

which is also there. Um,

54:11

it's sort of a pilgrimage. Um.

54:13

But yeah, I haven't. I haven't anybody reach out to me

54:16

yet, but I'll keep you in the loop

54:18

if I do. Please do because

54:21

towards the end of this episode, we're

54:23

going to tell people where to find you, ha

54:27

ha, which is actually guys,

54:29

what we're about to do now. Um,

54:33

really quickly, if you do want to check

54:35

out the special collections at

54:37

the University of New Hampshire, if you

54:39

cannot physically go there, you

54:41

can go to Library dot U

54:44

n H dot e D. You just

54:46

do a little search within there for Betty and

54:48

Barney Hill and you'll see the special collections

54:50

that they have. Um, they've

54:53

really it's it's really just kind of a

54:55

list of the materials that are

54:57

available there and like which box

54:59

they're in and where you can find them if you're

55:01

physically there. But it's a great

55:03

list of things as well as just some overall

55:05

information about the

55:08

the case. I actually I believe

55:10

they're going to be digitizing making

55:12

some of it available digitally over

55:15

the next few months. So depending

55:18

on how quickly people are listening to this, there may be more

55:20

stuff there. At the very

55:22

bottom of the page of that special Collection

55:25

of Betty Barney Hill, there is a picture

55:27

of the alien bust if you want to go and

55:29

see what that looks like. So if you

55:31

want to do that, you know, if you want to learn

55:33

more about this story, then just listen to

55:35

Strange Arrivals. That would be my recommendation.

55:38

Uh. We kind of talked about the

55:41

experience, the sonic experience you're gonna

55:43

get in that show. Um, we really

55:45

think it's worth your time. It feels

55:47

like you're there. There's like some

55:49

recreations that have been done correct where

55:53

it makes you feel like you're with

55:55

Betty and Barney, um, and

55:57

you're aren't there actual isn't

56:00

their actual hypnosis tape in the show too? Yeah,

56:02

there's a in a couple of instances, we

56:04

do have the actual hypnosis tape

56:07

um that we play.

56:09

Uh, there's a part where Betty's

56:11

talking about being taken from the car and being

56:13

brought aboard the ship, um Barney

56:17

experiencing uh the UFO

56:20

in the in the in the field.

56:23

Wow. Yeah, So if you

56:25

want to do that? What should what should people

56:27

do to find you? And Strange arrivals? Toby,

56:29

So, strange arrivals, uh, you

56:32

know, should be available on whatever podcast

56:35

app you use. Uh, if you want

56:37

to, uh get in touch with

56:39

me, I'm on Twitter at Toby Ball

56:42

n H and my website is Toby

56:44

ball dot com. Awesome. Well,

56:46

hey, thank you so much for joining us and

56:48

talking about this really really

56:51

interesting case. I'm

56:53

glad that you're making the show you're making because I

56:55

want to know more and I'm sure a lot of us

56:57

do. Agreed. Agreed, And also

57:00

thanks for the solid Outer Limits and Twilight

57:03

Zone Rex in this episode. And if

57:05

you can, I don't know if you can see my background, but I

57:07

changed it to the uh hocus Pocus

57:09

and Frisbee alien kind

57:12

of scheme mask looking dude, but he really does

57:14

have the two kind of almond shaped eyes and

57:16

the two little nostrils. Actually, now

57:18

I'm noticing which I think is a pretty key

57:20

part of the gray face facial

57:23

structure. So I'm actually kind of on board

57:25

with this having been an influence for

57:27

for those descriptions now that I'm looking at it. Yeah,

57:30

you check it out online. Uh, you

57:32

can if you put into Google

57:35

that they've got pictures of it. It's you

57:37

know, it's getting there. It's

57:41

getting there, and we are getting

57:43

to the end of today's episode.

57:46

Please check out Strange Arrivals. Don't

57:48

take our word for it, experience it yourself

57:50

wherever podcasts are available. We

57:53

also like to hear your stories

57:55

about allegations of extraterrestrial

57:57

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57:59

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58:02

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58:07

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58:10

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58:12

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58:14

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58:28

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