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Podcast. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

2:01

or wherever you get your podcasts. What

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Products that come in paper packaging. And not

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easiest choice for you. Find more

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at howlifeunfolds.com/paper-tarian. I'm Tracy from Stuff

2:32

You Missed in History class. Are

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Then check out season two of

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of entrepreneurship and discovering ways

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to business differently so you

3:03

can too. Happy

3:06

Saturday! The Bone Wars are going to

3:08

get a name drop in an upcoming episode,

3:11

so we have past hosts episode on

3:13

that feud as today's Saturday

3:15

classic. This was originally a

3:17

two-part episode, but we are running it all

3:19

together as one, so just roll with any

3:21

references that you hear to things like, in

3:23

the next episode or last time.

3:26

Also, there's some discussion of George Peabody

3:29

in this episode, and his name is

3:31

pronounced differently in different regions. In

3:33

the Northeast, people mostly say Peabody, like I just

3:36

said it, but in a lot of the rest

3:38

of the U.S., it's Peabody, like

3:40

it's spelled, and those different

3:42

pronunciations trickle down to all the

3:44

various institutions named after him, much

3:47

like how DeKalb County, Georgia and DeKalb,

3:49

Illinois are pronounced differently even though they're

3:51

named after the same person. This

3:53

episode was from hosts Sarah and DeBlina, and

3:55

it originally came out December 31, 2012, and

3:59

January, 2012. 9th 2013. Welcome

4:05

to Stuff You Missed in History Class,

4:07

a production of iHeartRadio. Hello

4:15

and welcome to the podcast. That's it for the week of

4:17

June 14th. And I'm Sarah Dowdy.

4:20

And we had a lot of fun this

4:22

year. I've had a lot of fun at

4:24

least covering scientific discoveries. We talked about horse

4:27

wells in the gas war and of course,

4:29

Tesla and Edison in the war of the

4:31

currents. That was one that was really popular

4:33

because it was much anticipated and requested beforehand.

4:35

It stirred up a little rivalry on our

4:38

Facebook page. It did. But

4:40

Tesla has got a lot of strong support from

4:42

it. Yeah, I was about to say the rivalry

4:44

is out there. But yeah, Tesla is definitely

4:47

kind of a favorite these days, I would

4:49

say. So those episodes and the Mary

4:51

Anning Princess of Paleontology episode that we did

4:53

earlier this year got listeners clamoring for

4:55

a podcast on another scientific war.

4:58

One about two 19th century

5:00

paleontologists, Edward Drinker Cope

5:02

and Othniel Charles Marsh. Now

5:05

Cope and Marsh duped it out over

5:07

America's fossil deposits during a time when

5:09

the field of paleontology was still pretty

5:12

new. Their race to find fossils, name

5:14

the species that they belong to and

5:16

publish their findings about all

5:19

of this came to be known by

5:21

many names, including the Great Dinosaur Feud,

5:23

the Dinosaur Rush, and the Bone

5:25

Wars. Our title today. And

5:28

they really made an impact too.

5:30

Prior to their work, there were

5:32

only nine known species of North

5:34

American dinosaurs. And these two

5:36

men's efforts led to the classification of 136 new species.

5:38

But Cope and Marsh's Feud

5:43

also resulted in a lot more than

5:45

just the advancement of their field. It

5:47

was kind of an embarrassment too. It

5:49

was a pretty dark time in a

5:51

lot of ways that ended up damaging

5:53

both of their reputations and maybe

5:55

even hindered scientific progress in

5:57

some respects. Yeah, so much.

6:00

So that it's interesting, their feud has been regarded,

6:02

quote, as a kind of

6:04

scientific indiscretion, says James Penick

6:06

in an article in American Heritage. So we're

6:08

going to kind of explore that a little

6:11

bit. But in two parts. Yes, we are

6:13

in two parts. But to understand why these

6:15

guys came to be at such odds, we

6:17

first need to discuss a little bit about

6:20

their backgrounds and how they came to be

6:22

in their field in the first place. Because

6:24

they both took very different paths to end

6:26

up basically in the same competition. So we'll

6:29

start with Marsh. He's the elder of

6:31

the two. Ophniel Charles Marsh was born

6:33

October 29, 1831, in

6:36

Lockport, New York. His father

6:38

was very poor. He was a farmer. And

6:40

even though Marsh showed a lot of interest

6:43

in science from a young age, his father

6:45

only intended him to take

6:47

over the family farm someday. But

6:49

fortunately for Marsh, he had a

6:51

very influential uncle. His mother, who

6:53

had died when he was only three years old, was

6:56

the sister of the banker

6:58

philanthropist George Peabody. A much

7:00

beloved sister, luckily. Luckily. So of

7:02

course, Peabody had one of the

7:05

largest personal fortunes in the world,

7:07

according to PennX article. And it

7:09

was a good person to have,

7:11

especially if Marsh's father

7:13

was kind of struggling with his work.

7:16

So around age 21, Marsh inherited some

7:18

money from his uncle that had been

7:20

meant for his mother's dowry. And he

7:22

used this money to attend prep school

7:24

at Phillips Academy. And

7:26

of course, at 21, he was much older

7:28

than the other kids there. And if you

7:31

think that Peabody could have advanced them the money

7:33

for the education a little further

7:35

ahead of time. Yeah, you would

7:37

hope so. But that wasn't the case.

7:39

That didn't happen. So according to an

7:41

article by Tom Huntington in American History,

7:44

his peers at prep school gave him

7:46

nicknames like Daddy and Captain, which

7:49

you would think would just be mortifying. But

7:51

he didn't seem to care. Or if he

7:53

did, he didn't let it stop him. He

7:55

graduated as valedictorian and then convinced his uncle

7:57

to pay to send him to Yale College.

8:00

where he earned an undergraduate degree in 1860. He

8:03

then went on to earn a master's degree

8:05

from Yale Sheffield School of Science a couple

8:07

years later. And after that, he spent a

8:09

little bit of time studying in Europe and

8:12

convinced Uncle Peabody to donate some more

8:14

money, this time to Yale, for a

8:16

Museum of Natural Sciences. And it was

8:18

kind of a hard sell, because Peabody

8:21

preferred Harvard. He would have preferred to

8:23

have given his money to Harvard. But

8:25

Marsh did get his way in the

8:27

end, he was appointed to run the

8:29

museum as curator and became a professor

8:31

of paleontology at Yale. So if your

8:33

uncle does pony up the money, it's

8:36

a good way to get the job.

8:39

Ultimately though, he was the

8:41

first professor of paleontology in North

8:43

America, according to Huntington's article.

8:45

So a big step in

8:47

his career. So moving

8:50

on to Cope, unlike Marsh, Edward Drinker

8:52

Cope came from a wealthy Quaker family.

8:54

So definitely a bit of a brighter

8:56

start in life. He was

8:58

born July 28th, 1840 in Philadelphia, so

9:01

nine years after Marsh. And

9:03

he also showed a really early interest

9:05

in science. He actually recorded his impressions

9:07

of the fossils of an extinct marine

9:09

reptile called Ichthyosaurus, which I think we

9:12

talked about a little bit in the

9:14

Marianne episode. He recorded

9:16

his impressions of this when he was

9:18

only six years old. So he was

9:20

like you, DeBlena, playing fossil hunter. Yeah,

9:22

I think he was probably a little more on

9:25

top of it than I was. When

9:27

he was 18, he also published a

9:29

scientific paper on salamanders. And

9:32

another thing that set Cope apart from

9:34

Marsh though, is that he didn't get

9:36

a lot in the way of a

9:38

formal education, which is kind of surprising

9:40

considering he was so into science at

9:42

an early age. He studied for about

9:44

a year at the University of Pennsylvania,

9:46

spent some time studying the herpetology collections

9:48

of the Smithsonian, and he worked as

9:50

a researcher at the Academy of Natural

9:52

Sciences in Philadelphia, but definitely didn't take

9:54

that sort of traditional

9:56

academic path that Marsh took. He

9:58

did take a little tour. through

10:00

Europe eventually though to further

10:02

his education, to keep Cope

10:04

from becoming involved in the Civil War. His

10:06

father sent him abroad to study natural history

10:08

in 1863 and he ended up for a

10:11

time at

10:13

Berlin University in Germany and

10:16

coincidentally Marsh was there at the

10:18

same time and the two guys

10:20

did become acquainted and even though

10:22

it seems really unbelievable later they

10:24

were actually friendly with each other

10:26

and they continued their friendship stateside

10:29

after they returned home even though

10:31

their lives did take somewhat different

10:33

paths. Yeah, Marsh of course came

10:35

back and he had this nice

10:37

cush position at Yale to come

10:40

into and Cope came back

10:42

to marry his cousin Annie Pern and

10:44

he became a professor of zoology in

10:47

botany at Haverford College in Pennsylvania. That

10:50

position however was pretty short lived.

10:52

Cope left it in 1867 to

10:54

go study a big deposit of

10:57

dinosaur fossils found in New Jersey.

10:59

So just a little background on the study of

11:02

dinosaurs up to this point. According

11:04

to Huntington's article, a British scientist

11:06

named Richard Owen had coined the

11:08

term dinosaur in 1841 but he

11:11

had described them as these quote

11:13

low slung lizard-like creatures. Joseph

11:15

Leidy's study of the first U.S. dinosaur

11:17

find in Haddonfield, New Jersey in 1858

11:19

totally changed

11:22

this perception. Leidy worked with

11:24

the bones of a Hadrosaurus and showed that

11:26

it would have walked erect on two legs

11:28

instead of on all fours like a lizard like

11:31

most people thought. And that

11:33

first Hadrosaurus which Leidy helped reconstruct became

11:35

the first complete dinosaur skeleton to be

11:37

displayed in the public according to pbs.org.

11:40

Well and Leidy had a connection to

11:42

one of these guys too didn't he?

11:45

He did. He had been Cope's anatomy

11:47

professor at the University of Pennsylvania and was

11:49

also his mentor at the Academy

11:51

of Natural Sciences. So probably someone that Cope looked

11:54

up to and learned from. But yeah if you're

11:56

only going to do one year at Penn it's

11:58

going to be a good time. met this

12:00

guy. Ultimately, Cope did

12:02

go to New Jersey where this

12:05

fossil quarry was, and he participated

12:07

in several excavations there. So

12:09

at this point, as we mentioned, Cope and Marsh

12:11

were still friendly with each other, enough so that

12:14

in 1867 Cope even named an amphibian fossil, Potomac's

12:19

marshi, after Marsh. I mean, that's a

12:22

pretty nice thing to do for your

12:24

fellow scientist, I would say. He also

12:26

spent a week or so in 1868

12:30

showing Marsh around the fossil quarry

12:32

in New Jersey where he was

12:34

working, pointing out his various collection

12:36

sites, really being open about his

12:39

work with Marsh, something important to

12:42

remember later on. That

12:44

year too, Marsh wasn't just going

12:46

to take this gift of a

12:48

dinosaur name and let it go.

12:50

He returned the name in compliment,

12:52

and according to pbs.org, gave a

12:55

quote, new and gigantic serpent from

12:57

the territory of New Jersey, the

12:59

name Mosasaurus copianus.

13:03

That gesture didn't count for a whole

13:05

lot in the long run, but still

13:07

it's a gesture. Yeah, so just to

13:09

give you a little background of why it

13:11

might not have been a sweet a gesture

13:13

as it seemed, Cope later found out that

13:15

Marsh had gone behind his back and made

13:17

a deal with the New Jersey quarry owner

13:19

that ensured that all of the fossils that

13:22

were found there would go directly to Marsh

13:24

first. So basically cutting Cope out of the

13:26

loop, cut him out of the process. So

13:28

Cope is taking him around this place showing

13:31

off what he's working on, giving him

13:33

the tour. Yeah, supposedly, I

13:35

guess being totally open about it,

13:37

not assuming that Marsh is going

13:40

to backstab him, but that's exactly what

13:42

happens. So Cope was kind

13:44

of hoodwinked by this in the same year in

13:46

1868, something else happened in

13:48

their relationship and Cope and Marsh's relationship.

13:51

Cope was in a big hurry to

13:53

publish his findings on a new species

13:55

of plesiosaur, the fossilized bones of which

13:57

had been shipped to him by an

14:00

army surgeon from Kansas and this

14:02

is how they received their their fossils

14:04

sometimes. This reminded me a little bit

14:06

of the Mary Anning episode where of

14:08

course the the earlier situation we were

14:11

describing of Cope going to the dig

14:13

side and looking himself sounds more like

14:15

what you'd expect but just having bone

14:17

shipped to you from from somebody else.

14:19

Yeah and we talk about we'll talk

14:21

about the bone collectors and so forth

14:23

a little more in part two of this

14:25

but this sort of introduces that idea. But

14:28

anyway Cope he got these

14:30

bones he he called this

14:33

previously unknown plesiosaur Elasmosaurus. Unfortunately

14:35

though when Cope was reconstructing

14:37

the Elasmosaurus skeleton he made

14:39

a pretty major error. He

14:42

reversed all of the vertebrae and put

14:44

its head on its tail instead of

14:46

on the end of its neck. It's

14:48

pretty bad and guess who noticed?

14:51

Marsh paid a visit to the Academy

14:53

of Natural Sciences to check out Cope's

14:55

work and of course he

14:57

did not hesitate to point out

14:59

this error and he's even said

15:02

to have been the first person

15:04

to point it out to Cope.

15:06

Cope called in Joseph Leidy to

15:08

take another look and offer up

15:10

a second opinion. He confirmed the

15:12

mistake and actually upon looking

15:14

at the skeleton Leidy removed the

15:16

head and placed on it and reversed

15:19

it with what Cope had originally thought

15:21

was the tail. So pretty

15:23

pretty bad. Yeah and Leidy also discussed

15:26

this error at the next meeting of

15:28

the Academy of Natural Sciences. So you

15:31

can imagine it's just like embarrassment on top

15:33

of embarrassment. First he's embarrassed in front of

15:36

his colleague then he's embarrassed in front

15:38

of his mentor and then at the

15:40

Academy of Natural Sciences in front of

15:42

this entire meeting of scientists and of

15:46

course also it's in publication as

15:48

we mentioned before. It's already out

15:50

there in the Journal of the

15:52

American Philosophical Society. They had already

15:55

published his findings including a drawing

15:57

of this incorrect restoration. So So

16:00

Cope frantically starts to try to buy back

16:02

every copy of the publication that he could

16:04

find. But this incident,

16:06

combined with Marsh's shady dealings

16:08

regarding the New Jersey Quarry, really

16:11

seemed to have kicked off the feud between

16:13

the two, or at least started the rift

16:15

and bad feelings between them. But

16:17

if you really look at which of these

16:19

incidents had more to do with the bad

16:22

feelings between them, it really depends on which

16:24

one of them that you asked. I mean,

16:26

Cope would probably say it had more to

16:28

do with what happened in New Jersey. That's

16:30

a fossil issue. Yes, and Marsh would say

16:33

that he was just embarrassed and mad that

16:35

he had pointed out his mistake. Yeah, well,

16:37

Marsh even later wrote of the incident and

16:39

said that it was Cope's, quote,

16:41

wounded vanity that had received a

16:44

shock from which it never recovered,

16:46

and he has since been my bitter

16:48

enemy. So, yeah, that's Marsh saying, oh,

16:51

Cope just couldn't handle being wrong, essentially.

16:54

He also later admitted that while he

16:56

initially did return his copy of the

16:59

publication to Cope, as Cope had requested,

17:01

trying to hoard all these incorrect copies,

17:04

he, Marsh, later sought out and

17:06

bought two additional copies, which he

17:08

did hang on to, as

17:11

if he wanted to have them as some kind of ammunition.

17:15

Seems like something that your buddy wouldn't

17:17

do. No, only your most bitter enemy

17:19

would do that, or at least you would hope.

17:22

This is a great example of how

17:25

Cope's big rush to get things published

17:27

sometimes resulted in him making errors. But,

17:29

of course, Marsh, although he was said

17:32

to be very meticulous, wasn't immune to

17:34

this either. He did make his share

17:36

of mistakes. Just one example,

17:38

he once put a cemorrhosaurus skull

17:41

on the skeleton of an apatosaurus, which,

17:43

according to an article by Renee Clary,

17:45

James Wanda C. and Amy Carpinelli in

17:48

Science Scope, was, quote, one of the

17:50

longest-lasting mistakes of paleontology. And we're going

17:52

to discuss at least one of his

17:55

other major errors later on, too, but

17:57

that's just to give you one example.

18:00

And so, of course, in some ways,

18:02

you know, we've been talking about this

18:04

rush that both of the men were

18:06

constantly under. These errors were

18:08

a direct result of competition between

18:11

them because not only were they

18:13

trying to get their discoveries out

18:15

there quickly because the naming rights

18:17

were given to whoever published a

18:19

find first, they were trying specifically

18:21

to beat each other to the

18:23

punch. I mean, that's not going

18:25

to make great meticulous

18:27

work in the end, most

18:29

likely. Right. The feud between Cope

18:31

and Marsh really began in earnest in the 1870s

18:34

when they both headed west

18:37

to hunt for fossils. Marsh's

18:39

first expedition was in 1870, and it

18:42

was sponsored by Yale, and he had

18:44

this whole entourage with him, including about

18:46

a dozen Yale students and even an

18:48

army escort that they acquired once they'd

18:50

made it to what's now the Midwest.

18:53

They explored Kansas, Wyoming, and Utah,

18:55

and according to Huntington's article, at

18:57

one point they even had Buffalo

19:00

Bill Cody as their guide. But

19:02

by the time they got back to Yale after that first

19:04

trip, they had 36 boxes of

19:06

specimens, including bone fragments

19:09

from a pterodactyl wing when no pterodactyl

19:11

had been discovered before. And

19:13

Marsh estimated that this giant flying reptile would have

19:15

had a wingspan of 20 feet. So

19:18

Cope and Marsh, when they really started to butt heads,

19:20

was around 1872 when Cope started exploring

19:24

Wyoming territory looking for fossils

19:26

there. Huntington writes that

19:28

Marsh was really angry about this because he

19:30

considered the area his turf, I

19:33

guess because he'd already hunted for fossils around there. The

19:35

taste of his own medicine there, I have to say.

19:38

But this ultimately kicked off a really

19:40

nasty sort of letter writing campaign between

19:42

the two. It reminds

19:45

me of the pamphlet wars we sometimes

19:47

discuss on the podcast. But their word

19:49

tactics were not just limited to words

19:51

either. They employed everything from

19:54

espionage to theft in their battle

19:56

to be known as the best

19:58

in the field. extent

20:00

to make sure the other guy was was

20:03

number two too or even lower. So

20:05

we're gonna be discussing examples of some

20:07

of these tactics in the next episode

20:10

as well as what happens when Cope

20:12

and Marsh finally take their fight to

20:14

what turned out to be the ultimate

20:16

battleground for them and it was not

20:19

some fossil ground it was Washington DC.

20:21

Yeah so lots of interesting things to

20:23

cover in part two including I think

20:25

we'll talk a little bit more just

20:28

about their personalities too and their personal

20:30

lives because I think it gives some

20:32

interesting insight as to maybe some

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Boys Remote. When

25:04

we left them off, Cope and Marsh

25:06

had just started to look west in

25:08

search of fossils. In this

25:10

episode though, we're going to be talking a

25:13

bit about what they found out west and

25:15

the sometimes shady tactics that they employed to

25:17

be the first to get credit for their

25:19

discoveries. We're also going to take a

25:21

look at the more official stage on which

25:24

their battle played out and where it

25:26

got truly, truly nasty. But

25:28

first we want to take a closer

25:30

look at who these guys were, because

25:32

it might help provide at least a

25:34

little more insight as to why they were

25:36

destined to clash in the first place, the

25:39

clash of the dinosaur hunters. Okay,

25:41

so we've already talked about the

25:43

differences between Cope and Marsh's socioeconomic

25:46

backgrounds and their educational training, which

25:48

is kind of where it all

25:50

started. And if you'll recall, Marsh

25:53

was poor, raised on a farm

25:55

until his Uncle George Peabody stepped

25:57

in with the financial support that Marsh

25:59

needed to do. to go to prep school and

26:01

then on to Yale. And it's

26:03

Peabody's generous donation at Marsha's

26:06

request that also led to the creation

26:08

of the Museum of Natural Sciences at

26:10

Yale, which was a move that then

26:13

helped secure Marsha professorship there. And

26:15

it created a great resource for him while he

26:17

was hunting for fossils. Yeah, he had Yale in

26:19

his corner. But all of

26:22

Peabody's support did unfortunately come with

26:24

a catch, according to an article

26:26

by James Penick in American Heritage.

26:29

It turned out that Uncle George

26:31

had a certain stipulation for anyone

26:33

named in his will. And that

26:36

stipulation involved marriage. When he was

26:38

25 and a freshman at Yale,

26:41

Marsha received a letter from his

26:43

aunt indicating this stipulation. And it

26:45

read, quote, "'If any of his

26:48

nephews should in any way conduct

26:50

himself as to disgrace themselves and

26:52

him, or now mine this,

26:55

should any of them form a marriage connection

26:57

or even get engaged before they have the

27:00

means of supporting a family. They should never

27:02

have a cent of his money. He

27:04

desired me to communicate this to

27:06

all his nephews.'" Yeah,

27:09

and apparently there was one other nephew

27:11

who had gotten cut out of the

27:13

will for marrying too soon. So Peabody

27:15

was serious about this. He was put

27:17

to the test. By the time Marsh

27:19

was financially independent, he was well into

27:21

his 30s. So Penick kind of

27:23

suggests maybe he was too set in

27:25

his ways to marry at that point

27:27

or just wasn't inclined

27:29

to do so. Or he just said

27:31

he had this strange break on his

27:34

life until he could be financially independent.

27:36

He had some other friendly sort

27:38

of issues though. Yeah, just

27:40

basically the issue was that he didn't have

27:42

any friends. According to an

27:45

article by Tom Huntington in American History,

27:47

people found Marsh to be, quote, "'autocratic

27:49

and petty' and accused him of taking

27:51

credit for the work of his assistants

27:54

and for falling behind on paying his

27:56

employees and never a good move." clubs

28:00

they apparently nicknamed him quote the

28:02

great dismal swan. That's a

28:05

bad sign. He doesn't do

28:07

well with the nicknames. No, he really doesn't.

28:09

Except for the Bonewars. That one is a

28:12

pretty great nickname for his rivalry. Cope

28:15

on the other hand came from a

28:17

very different kind of background which we

28:19

discussed on the last podcast. It was

28:21

a more privileged beginning. If you remember

28:23

on the last episode though he didn't

28:25

have a lot of formal education. He

28:28

was self-taught and he was a part

28:30

of this whole gentleman's world of natural

28:32

science that existed in the 19th century.

28:35

Dablina and I were talking about it

28:37

earlier how it just fascinates us that

28:40

gentlemen would choose to pursue science

28:43

in some form. There's something very romantic

28:45

about it. I mean we both talked about how

28:47

it just there's something very ideal. A

28:49

little troubling too because it ends up

28:51

with you end up with personal disputes

28:54

like this. But Cope

28:56

was considered to be very brilliant,

28:58

considered to be a prodigy. His

29:01

life was also very different from Marsh's on a

29:03

personal level too. We mentioned that he was married.

29:05

He had a wife. He had

29:08

a daughter named Julia. Unlike

29:10

Marsh too, Cope was pretty charming.

29:12

The friends he had seemed to

29:14

really like him, really care for

29:16

him. Although they would agree that

29:18

he could kind of be arrogant

29:21

sometimes. He could be quick-tempered. According

29:23

to Huntington's article, paleontologist William Berryman

29:26

Scott, who took Cope's side in

29:28

the war with Marsh, said of

29:30

Cope, quote, despite his greatness, in

29:33

some measure indeed because of it,

29:35

he had some unfortunate personal peculiarities,

29:38

was pugnacious and quarrelsome, and made

29:40

many enemies. So many enemies, many

29:42

friends, no friends on

29:44

the other side. Kind of unusual guys.

29:46

So when we last left off with

29:49

our story, Cope had kind of broken

29:51

the mold of those gentleman naturalists that

29:53

we were describing. They usually waited for

29:55

things to be sent to them to

29:57

study. They didn't actually go out on these

29:59

great... expeditions. They limit their study

30:01

to the comfort of their own

30:03

home. Exactly. And Cope,

30:06

like Marsh, went out to hunt

30:08

fossils, but he had a different

30:10

way of traveling from Marsh. We

30:13

mentioned how Marsh went out with this

30:15

entourage and had guides and a military

30:17

escort. Cope did not

30:19

have a resource like Yale behind him, so

30:22

he didn't have all these graduate assistants to

30:24

come with him. So he often

30:26

put together teams for his expeditions when he got

30:28

wherever he was going. Also,

30:30

since Cope was a Quaker, he

30:33

rarely used a military escort

30:35

because he was a pacifist, and he

30:37

pretty much refused to carry a revolver,

30:40

which a lot of people thought was crazy

30:42

because of the threat of hostile Native American

30:44

tribes out west, among other things. Yeah,

30:47

Bandit, Tsaiwim, and all sorts of risks

30:49

he might come across, not to mention

30:51

just the wildlife, essentially. Cope

30:54

did things his way, though, and he was

30:56

very tough about it. Pennick relates how Cope

30:59

would read the Bible every night, even when

31:01

he was out in the field, and if

31:03

others in his camp would laugh

31:05

at him, he'd sort of stare them down until

31:08

they would just straighten

31:10

up, you know, stop laughing, stop making fun of

31:12

him. Cope and Marsh did

31:14

both have successes in the field, though.

31:16

We've kind of described the way they

31:18

carried about their expeditions, but they did

31:20

both have successes. So Marsh,

31:23

of course, with his official Yale

31:25

connection and his Peabody inheritance at

31:27

his disposal, did have more resources

31:30

to throw at the situation. However,

31:32

both, to some extent, Cope

31:35

especially, were reliant on being associated

31:37

with one of several geological surveys of

31:39

the west that were going on at

31:41

the time. It was kind of an

31:43

official backing almost. Yeah, being involved with

31:45

these surveys provided economic support for their

31:47

work and a vehicle for publishing their

31:49

findings, and this becomes important later in

31:51

our story as well. So just kind

31:53

of remember that. We talked

31:56

a little in the last podcast also

31:58

about how Marsh and Cope started. going

32:00

at each other, mostly by way of

32:02

letters, after their initial expeditions out west,

32:05

when they started really competing, in a

32:07

sense, for fossil finds out there. But

32:10

they really launched into full-scale warfare in 1877, when

32:12

Arthur Lakes, who was a mining teacher,

32:16

wrote to Marsh saying that he'd discovered

32:19

some fossils near Morris in Colorado. Now

32:22

Marsh didn't reply, so Lakes

32:25

said, well, OK, I want to do something with these.

32:27

So he sent some samples to cope. When

32:29

Marsh heard that, though, he sent Lakes some cash

32:31

to win him over. He was like, well, I

32:33

don't want cope to get these. After

32:36

that, after getting that cash, Lakes asked cope

32:39

to please send back his samples so that

32:41

he could work with Marsh. And

32:43

according to Huntington, part of what Marsh

32:45

found among Lakes' initial find were the

32:47

remains, the first remains of a Stegosaurus.

32:51

Around the time, the same time, too,

32:53

another teacher named O.W. Lucas

32:57

also found some fossils in Colorado.

32:59

He contacted cope first about it,

33:01

and cope jumped at the chance

33:03

to check out the fossils. Overall,

33:05

according to Huntington, cope's Colorado finds actually

33:08

turned out to be better than Marsh's,

33:10

because they were bigger and they could

33:12

be taken out of the surrounding rock

33:14

without breaking them. Marsh, of

33:16

course, did come out on top in

33:19

other situations. In the summer of

33:21

1877, for example,

33:23

two railway workers in

33:25

Como, Wyoming, named William Reed

33:28

and W.E. Carlin, contacted

33:30

Marsh about some fossils that they

33:32

had discovered as a site known

33:34

as Como Bluff. And

33:36

Marsh, of course, sent his bone collectors

33:38

out there. They ended up gathering 30

33:40

tons of fossils from the Jurassic age

33:42

and shipped all the stuff back to

33:44

Marsh at Yale. And it was very

33:46

high quality, you know, large bones. It

33:48

was well preserved. The result of Marsh's

33:50

investigation of this find, too, really speaks

33:52

to how high quality it was. He

33:55

discovered several new species

33:57

and named the

33:59

Alice. the diplodocus,

34:01

the campedsaurus, all from

34:04

those comoblast finds. And

34:07

also, notably, he named the

34:09

brontosaurus out of those finds

34:11

one of the world's best

34:13

known dinosaurs and Ceridote's favorite

34:15

dinosaur, I should mention. Interesting

34:18

though, that the naming of brontosaurus is

34:21

actually considered one of Mars's biggest mistakes.

34:24

After he died, scientists realized that

34:26

the creature Mars had named brontosaurus

34:29

was just another example of a

34:31

dinosaur Mars had already named the

34:33

Apatosaurus, so the designation brontosaurus

34:35

was taken away. Obviously, though,

34:37

that's kind of an enduring mistake. So

34:40

it's probably clear by now that

34:43

Copen Mars often weren't the ones

34:45

actually digging in the ground collecting

34:47

fossils or even supervising digs themselves,

34:49

hence all the talk of sending

34:51

bones back east to them. They

34:54

accomplished a lot of what they did through

34:56

the help of bone collectors. Copen

34:58

Marsh would occasionally visit the dig sites,

35:00

but the fossil collectors were sort of

35:02

the foot soldiers in this battle that

35:05

they were waging against each other too. There

35:07

really was a lot of taking

35:10

sides. Reed took Mars's side and

35:12

became a major collector for him.

35:14

While Carlin switched over to Cope's

35:17

side, Lucas remained on Cope's side

35:19

while Lake's stuck with Marsh.

35:22

I was surprised by Lucas, I think, since he

35:24

sort of got slighted at the beginning by Marsh,

35:26

but I guess... The pay might have

35:28

been better? Yeah, I mean, that means a lot. It

35:33

does. Occasionally, though, according to Huntington

35:36

again, the two paleontologists would try

35:38

to woo each other's collectors away

35:40

from the other. I

35:42

don't know if they were attempting them with better

35:45

publication of the works or money all the time,

35:47

but that wasn't the most extreme

35:49

of the tactics used in this war.

35:51

I mean, that already sounds a little

35:53

bit dicey, but they also

35:55

spied on each other. Marsh at least

35:57

would even communicate in code with his

36:00

collectors to try to keep Cope from

36:02

figuring out what he was up to,

36:04

what his bone collectors were up to.

36:07

They referred to Cope as Jones in

36:09

this sneaky correspondence. And one of Marsha's

36:11

guys was so paranoid about Cope spying

36:14

on him that when a man showed

36:16

up at their camp one day in

36:18

1878, he asked

36:20

for a handwriting sample in case

36:22

it was Cope in disguise. He

36:25

was so suspicious. So

36:27

I guess they were right to worry though,

36:29

because Cope really did charm his

36:31

way into one of Marsha's camps

36:34

in 1879, probably to woo some

36:36

team members over to his side

36:38

or just to steal information outright.

36:40

But the funny thing was, Marsha's

36:42

men really liked Cope. According to Huntington's

36:45

article, Lakes later wrote of the incident

36:47

that Cope quote, entertained his party by

36:49

singing comic songs with a refrain at

36:52

the end, like the howl of a

36:54

coyote. And Lakes went on to observe

36:56

quote, I must say that what I

36:58

saw of him, I liked very

37:01

much. His manner is so affable and

37:03

his conversation very agreeable. I only

37:05

wish I could feel sure he had a

37:07

sound reputation for honesty. Maybe

37:10

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41:01

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41:23

remote. According

41:31

to an article by Renee

41:33

Clary, James Laundersay, and Amy

41:35

Cappinelli in Science Scope, Marsh

41:38

was said to have planted unrelated

41:40

fossils at some of Cope's dig

41:42

sites to slow down his progress.

41:45

So it's not just invading the other

41:47

guy's camp. No reputation for

41:50

honesty there. That

41:52

takes it to another level, though. Tampering

41:56

with the science, essentially. Yeah, and that

41:58

was the really shocking part. of

42:00

Cope and Marsh's tactics is that

42:02

they went beyond trying to harm

42:04

and hinder each other in their

42:06

efforts. They actually may have harmed

42:08

the field itself from maybe even

42:10

hindered scientific progress in some cases.

42:12

For example, if Marsh's guy

42:15

Reed unearthed more bones than he could

42:17

use, he smashed them so that Carlin

42:19

couldn't get to them. Marsh

42:21

is also said to have ordered that

42:23

certain sites be blown up with dynamite

42:26

to keep Cope from getting to the

42:28

fossils, although according to a 2008 article

42:31

by Jean-Biof Ruzewski, at

42:34

least when it comes to one of

42:36

the sites that was supposedly blown up,

42:39

Quarry-10, which is in Morrison, Colorado, those

42:41

allegations are false. Some

42:43

researchers found Quarry-10 in 2002

42:45

using Lakes's field notes and

42:48

determined that Lakes probably just

42:50

shoved some dirt in there and then

42:52

said he dimited it to discourage the competition

42:55

from checking it out. The way I sort

42:57

of read that though is maybe he had

42:59

his history of dynamiting things already established though

43:01

if people were going to believe that. Could

43:04

be. Well, it may have been

43:06

out west that some of the more colorful war tactics

43:08

were used by these two. As

43:10

we hinted in the previous episode, the

43:12

really decisive battleground for the Bone Wars

43:14

turned out to be Washington, D.C. And

43:17

this is where Marsh really pulled ahead

43:19

because even though he wasn't winning any

43:22

popularity contests, he was much savvier

43:24

when it came to politics than

43:26

Cope was. The first development

43:28

that really set the ball rolling for Marsh had

43:30

to do with those surveys out west that we

43:32

talked about earlier. In the

43:34

late 1870s, early 1880s

43:36

or so, Congress, upon the advice of

43:39

the National Cadbecome President of, decided to

43:41

do away with all

43:43

of the existing competing geological

43:45

surveys and create just one

43:47

national geological survey to replace

43:49

them. They decided to call

43:51

it the United States Geological

43:53

Survey. And the former

43:55

head of one of the defunct surveys,

43:58

Marsh, had been affiliated with was

44:00

named as the director. So

44:03

soon, Marsh became the official

44:05

vertebrate paleontologist of the United

44:07

States Geological Survey. Not too

44:10

surprising there. He's

44:12

the head of the National Academy of

44:14

Sciences already. He knows the new head

44:16

of the Geological Survey. I mean, he

44:20

was certainly at this point winning the

44:22

feud in terms of political clout in

44:24

the science world in terms of how

44:27

his career was progressing. When

44:29

Cope lost that government support, it

44:31

really devastated his research too and

44:33

his publication efforts. He just didn't

44:35

have any funding anymore and his

44:37

personal wealth, which he had also

44:39

put toward his efforts in paleontology

44:42

over all these years, was starting

44:44

to dry up. Cope, looking for

44:46

a get rich quick sort of

44:48

scheme, tried to make up for

44:50

it by investing in a silver

44:52

mine in New Mexico. But that

44:54

turned out to be a bust.

44:56

He lost everything and really

44:59

seemed at this point that there was a clear

45:01

winner and loser in this feud. But

45:04

that doesn't seem to be enough

45:06

for Marsh. He took things a

45:08

step further and tried to have

45:10

Cope's fossils confiscated, claiming that they'd

45:12

been collected with government funds. Cope

45:15

completely denied this. He said that he had

45:17

used his own money to collect the fossils

45:20

and then he decided to fight back against Marsh

45:22

in the only way that he could at that

45:24

point and that was through the press. He

45:27

approached a writer for the New York Herald and

45:29

told that writer basically every bad thing that

45:31

he had ever thought or heard about Marsh.

45:33

And this kicked off a very public, very

45:36

brutal battle of words between Cope and Marsh

45:38

that was splashed all over the pages of

45:40

the New York Herald between January 12th, 1880

45:42

and January 26th, 1880 under headlines like, scientists

45:48

wage bitter warfare. And

45:51

they went way back in their relationship

45:53

too. They weren't just considering the last

45:55

few years as their ammo. They went

45:58

back. the

46:00

beginning. According to Huntington's article, Cope

46:03

said things like Marsh was quote,

46:05

unable to properly classify and name

46:08

the fossils his explorers secured. It's

46:10

pretty damning. He

46:12

said that Marsh took credit for his

46:14

assistance work and he also accused Marsh

46:17

and the US Geological Survey of corruption

46:19

and misuse of government funds, which is

46:21

pretty key here. For his part, Marsh

46:24

brought up how Cope rushed to get

46:26

his discoveries into print, you know, before

46:28

they were ready, often

46:30

making errors in the process. He

46:33

also brought up that embarrassing mistake

46:35

with the Elasmusaur, among other things.

46:37

We discussed that in the

46:41

last podcast, flipping the head and tail of

46:43

the dinosaur and then having Marsh be the

46:45

one to point it out. This

46:48

newspaper feud didn't last long but it

46:50

was really damaging to both of their

46:52

reputation, so nobody won in this instance.

46:54

Cope struggled to find a buyer for

46:56

his massive fossil collection because he needed

46:59

the money. Eventually he could only sell

47:01

part of it and then he hit

47:03

the lecture circuit and tried to secure

47:05

a paying position at a college. He

47:07

didn't have that backing behind him that

47:09

Marsh had at Yale. I think I

47:11

saw him described in one spot as

47:14

a rogue, rogue scientist

47:16

or a rogue paleontologist. Well

47:18

now he has all this bad press

47:21

out too. Exactly. So doubly, he just

47:23

doesn't have anyone to go to at

47:25

that point. It just proved

47:27

to be really tough to find a paying

47:29

position. According to Pennick's article, he

47:31

finally got a position though and a small salary

47:33

at the University of Pennsylvania in 1889 and he

47:35

turned out to

47:38

be a pretty good teacher but of course that wasn't

47:40

his life's goal. That's not what he had really wanted.

47:42

He died in 1897, a renal failure at age 56.

47:47

According to PBS and not right away

47:49

but in a couple years, Congress did

47:52

investigate the US Geological Survey's use of

47:54

funds and ended up cutting their funding

47:56

and completely doing away with the Department

47:58

of Health and Human Services. Department of

48:01

Paleontology. Marsh was forced

48:03

to resign and for the first time he

48:05

had to accept a salary from Yale. He

48:08

died of pneumonia in 1899, two years after Marsh, at

48:10

the age of

48:12

67. He only had $186 in his bank account when he died of all

48:15

that peabody money that had

48:20

come to him. His collection ended up

48:23

in the Smithsonian and at Yale, and

48:25

part of Cope's collection ended up at

48:27

the American Museum of Natural History. That's

48:29

like, those are the two or the

48:31

three winners in the story, I think.

48:34

The places and us too, you know, that

48:37

we can go see them today. Yeah, and

48:39

that there's this interesting story for us to

48:41

look into. But looking at

48:43

this result, there doesn't really seem to be

48:45

like a winner at the end. Neither

48:47

of these guys seem to really come out

48:50

on top. But of course, they were both

48:52

very accomplished overall and they both made major

48:54

contributions to science. If you stack

48:56

up some of their accomplishments though side by side,

48:58

what does it look like? We wanted to take

49:00

a look at that. So first we'll look

49:02

at the naming part of it. Well, Marsh

49:04

seemed to win when it came to naming

49:06

dinosaur species. He named 86 out

49:09

of the 130 some odd ones that they

49:11

named total. Cope published more

49:13

though. According to Science Scope, his record

49:15

of 1200 publications is still

49:18

unbeaten. Wow. I mean, I guess

49:20

that is not too surprising. He won

49:22

that side of the battle. Marsh

49:24

notably provided evidence for the theory of

49:27

evolution to which Darwin himself called, quote,

49:29

the best support of the theory of

49:31

evolution at the time. He found

49:35

30 specimens, for example, that allowed him

49:37

to outline the evolutionary history of the

49:39

horse. And he recognized

49:42

similarities of the modern bird

49:44

in extinct dinosaurs. Cope

49:47

on the other hand, because of

49:49

his religious convictions, probably didn't support

49:51

Darwin's theory. But as Science Scope

49:53

points out, he's known for Cope's

49:55

rule, which is the observation that organisms

49:57

of a species tend to get larger

49:59

over time. time in the fossil

50:01

record. So it just depends on what

50:03

you're judging them by, which one of

50:06

them won. Yeah, and it certainly

50:08

made me wonder too how much they accomplished

50:11

because they did have the other

50:13

one there competing and egging him

50:15

on, or whether they could have

50:17

accomplished more if they had worked

50:19

in better concert together than they

50:21

did, not trying to sabotage each

50:24

other's work as much. No, but

50:26

it's interesting, just another tidbit here,

50:28

their competition continued a little

50:31

bit even after the grave. About a

50:33

century after Cope's death, National Geographic photographer

50:35

Louis Sahoyo, Scott Cope's skull from the

50:37

University of Pennsylvania, Cope had willed his

50:39

body to science, so this was available.

50:42

And he took the skull with him

50:44

as he traveled around the world interviewing

50:46

paleontologists for a book. And he referred

50:48

to the skull as he was doing

50:50

this as Eddie. Later, he

50:53

and paleontologist Robert Baker tried to have Cope's

50:55

skull named as the type specimen, which means

50:57

that it would have been the standard of

50:59

a species to which all others are

51:01

compared. He wanted to have it named as

51:03

the type specimen for Homo sapiens. But it

51:06

turned out that the late botanist Carolus Linnaeus

51:08

had already been named the type specimen

51:10

for Homo sapiens. So thank goodness

51:12

for Linnaeus able to step

51:14

in there with his skull

51:16

and stop this feud from

51:18

continuing after death.

51:21

Yeah, I read elsewhere that one reason

51:23

that Cope willed his body to science

51:25

is that he wanted them to compare

51:27

his skull size to Marsha's after Marsh

51:29

died. But Marsh didn't leave any sort

51:31

of instructions

51:33

to have his skull studied

51:35

after the fact, so they didn't ever

51:37

get to resolve that question. I

51:40

think that's for the best. Yeah, it's

51:42

better just to look at the story,

51:44

look at their accomplishments and decide for yourself,

51:46

I think, who's the winner. But I'm curious

51:49

for listeners to write in and tell us

51:51

if they have a favorite in this war.

51:53

I know that in the war

51:55

of the currents, for example, Tesla was

51:57

the overwhelming favorite among our listeners.

52:00

at least. And so I wonder, Copa Marsh, do

52:02

you have a favorite Sarah? Who do you think

52:04

you would have been pals with? I, well, I

52:06

mean, I don't know. Do I fix the

52:09

guy who didn't have any friends? I mean, odds are.

52:12

You're a nice person, so I could say that. So I could have made friends

52:14

with Marsh. I don't know. I found

52:17

myself during this story kind

52:19

of rooting for each of them and

52:21

feeling bad for each of them and then

52:23

thinking that they were each terrible, terrible people.

52:26

So maybe I'll pass on this. Yeah,

52:29

OK. You're taking, you're pleading the fifth. Yeah. Do

52:31

you have a, do you have a pick? I

52:34

mean, I guess I sort of agree with you,

52:36

although I found myself sympathizing with Copa a little

52:38

bit more. And maybe it's because some of the

52:40

articles that I read were more biased

52:42

in that direction. But I

52:44

think it may also have a lot to do with the fact

52:47

that at least from what I

52:49

read from the evidence that I saw, it

52:51

seemed that Marsh kind of did the dirtier

52:53

stuff, like the dynamiting of dig sites. I

52:55

didn't like that at all. So it's not

52:57

cool. Thank

53:02

you so much for joining us on this Saturday,

53:05

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