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SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

Released Saturday, 22nd June 2024
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SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

SYMHC Classics: Tupac Amaru Rebellion

Saturday, 22nd June 2024
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0:01

Sound is personal, intimate, and emotive.

0:03

Just like this podcast. We

0:06

are Audios stack.ai. We

0:09

combine AI writing. The best synthetic

0:11

voices like ours. With production

0:13

like music and mastering. And

0:16

deliver them to be heard, be it

0:18

ads, podcasts, or VOs for video. Just

0:20

like this ad you're listening to right

0:22

now. However, we have millions of

0:24

spots just like this on podcasts. And

0:27

rather than hearing from us, we want to hear from

0:29

you. How would you like

0:31

to win an AI audio campaign for

0:33

free? Do

0:36

you work with businesses, products, events, or

0:38

causes that could benefit from free promotion

0:40

on podcasts in the coming month? Tell

0:43

us how you might use synthetic voices. Or

0:46

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0:48

podcast like this versus science, arts,

0:50

or even music. Go

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to audios stack.ai/contest and your company

0:55

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0:57

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an Intel podcast. Yay!

4:02

So given how many of our listeners

4:04

are from places that either are or used

4:06

to be British, I

4:08

think probably most folks know at

4:11

least the very basics of the

4:13

Revolutionary War, which went on

4:15

from 1775 to 1783 between the British Empire and its American colonies. So

4:21

today we are going to talk

4:23

about another conflict that overlapped this

4:25

war and was between another empire

4:28

and its American colonies. This

4:30

time the war was between Spain and

4:33

its colonies in South America. In

4:35

particular we're talking about the Tupac Amaru

4:38

Rebellion, which took place from 1780 to

4:41

1783, so right at the end

4:43

of the same time as the Revolutionary War. It

4:46

started in the Andes Mountains in Peru,

4:48

and in addition to stretching over multiple

4:51

years this rebellion actually wound up spanning

4:53

more territory than the Revolutionary War did.

4:56

So as you might imagine, we could

4:58

really spend a whole series of podcasts

5:00

on this rebellion just like you could

5:02

with the Revolutionary War. So today is

5:04

really an overview of the basics.

5:07

And just because I don't want

5:09

folks to spend this podcast distractedly

5:12

wondering about it every time we

5:14

say Tupac Amaru, yes, late

5:17

rapper Tupac Shakur was named after him.

5:19

His mother actually renamed him after this

5:21

revolutionary figure while he was still a

5:23

baby. And in our last caveat,

5:26

as a parent teacher heads up, this

5:29

story contains a couple of

5:31

particularly horrifying executions. One

5:33

of them caused me to I Am Holly while I

5:35

was doing the research to say this sounds like it

5:38

came out of Game of Thrones. So

5:40

this might be a podcast to listen

5:42

to yourself before sharing it with little

5:44

ones and then use your own discretion

5:47

about whether it's appropriate

5:49

for those little ones. Alright,

5:53

so Spain's colonization of Central and South

5:55

America, which started in the 16th century,

5:58

had three primary aims. to

6:01

expand the Spanish Empire, to seek

6:03

treasure, and to convert the

6:05

local population to Christianity. Today's

6:08

story, as Tracy referenced just a moment ago, takes

6:10

place in the Andes Mountains in Peru in

6:12

the 18th century. Yeah,

6:15

so Spain had been around for a couple hundred

6:17

years in Central and South America by this

6:19

point. The population by

6:21

now in this part of the Andes

6:24

Mountains was overwhelmingly made up of indigenous

6:26

South Americans known as Quechua, and their

6:28

languages were all part of the Quechuan

6:30

language family. The Quechuan

6:33

language family goes back to the days of

6:35

the Inca Empire, and a lot of the indigenous people

6:38

who were living in the Andes Mountains by the

6:40

18th century traced their lineage back

6:43

to the Inca as well. In

6:46

addition to the region's indigenous population,

6:48

there were also Spanish Europeans, people

6:50

who had both European and indigenous

6:53

ancestry who were referred to as

6:55

mestizos, and people of

6:57

European ancestry who had been born in South

7:00

America who were referred to as creoles. And

7:03

there were a few, although not very

7:05

many, enslaved Africans along with their descendants.

7:08

The population of enslaved Africans was much

7:10

greater in some other parts of South

7:12

America, but not so much in

7:14

the Andes Mountains. We

7:16

can look at the system of local government

7:18

that Spain had instituted in Peru in terms

7:20

of three roles. There were, of course, lots

7:22

of other roles besides these three, these are

7:24

sort of the key figures. On

7:27

the Spanish side, there was the Coriador, who

7:29

was an official representative of the Spanish

7:32

government. On the indigenous

7:34

side, there was the Caracas, or

7:36

the Cacique, who was essentially a

7:38

native liaison between the native population

7:40

and the Spanish government. Caracas

7:42

was actually a Quechuan title dating back

7:44

to the Inca, and Cacique was

7:46

the Spanish term that was applied to the

7:49

same basic role. And then

7:51

there was the local clergy, the parish priests

7:53

who were responsible for particular towns and settlements.

7:56

Together, the Caracas, the Coriador, and the

7:58

priest saw to the government government and

8:00

the legal and spiritual needs of the

8:02

community, at least from the Spanish point

8:04

of view. Although

8:06

the presence of the Caracas may make it

8:09

seem as though Spain was taking steps to

8:11

include the indigenous population in the system of

8:13

government, this wasn't really the

8:15

case. Many of the indigenous

8:18

population spoke only Quechuan languages, but

8:20

official events and documents were presented

8:22

only in Spanish. Apart

8:24

from the Caracas, most of the people involved

8:26

in the government were not only Spanish, but

8:29

also had been born in Spain, and

8:31

not South America. While

8:34

it's certainly within the realm of

8:36

possibility that an individual corridor could

8:38

be acting with the indigenous population's

8:40

best interest at heart, this

8:42

was really a position that was quite

8:44

prone to greed and mismanagement and abuse.

8:47

The position itself was immensely powerful. It

8:49

had grown from one that was mostly

8:52

judicial to one that combined judicial, administrative,

8:54

and legislative power all into one centralized

8:56

role. This meant that

8:58

one unscrupulous corridor had the power

9:00

to have an enormous and nearly

9:03

unchecked impact on the area that he was in

9:05

charge of. As is a

9:07

recurring theme in just about all of

9:09

our podcasts on colonialism, Spain

9:11

had implemented some policies and practices

9:14

that were deeply unpopular in its

9:16

South American colonies. One,

9:18

unsurprisingly, was taxes, both sales tax

9:20

on goods that people tried to

9:22

buy and another called a

9:24

head tax, and that's basically like a tribute

9:27

based on a number of people. There

9:30

were also involuntary labor drafts to staff

9:32

mines and mills, some of which were

9:34

extremely far away from the homes of

9:36

the people that were drafted into working

9:38

there. As another

9:40

way to make money, Spain also forced the

9:42

sale of European goods to the indigenous population.

9:45

Basically, a lot of what Spain was

9:47

expecting from its colonies in terms of

9:49

both labor and money was either forced

9:51

or coerced. And

9:54

in the late 18th century, a lot of

9:56

this was getting a lot worse for indigenous

9:58

South Americans. of

10:00

implementing a lot of changes to how

10:02

it ran its empire. These became known

10:04

as the Bourbon Reforms after the Royal

10:06

House of the same name. These

10:09

reforms had been going on for a while, but

10:11

they really peaked during the reign of Charles III

10:14

who ruled Spain from 1759 to 1788. The

10:18

Bourbon Reforms had wide reaching effects

10:20

for Spain's military and government and

10:23

for how religion affected the government

10:25

and civic life. But

10:27

when it came to South America's indigenous

10:29

population, the reforms led to higher taxes,

10:31

an increase in forced and coerced labor

10:34

and fewer rights. Along

10:36

with the range of other cultural and

10:39

religious issues, all this dissatisfaction with taxes

10:41

and forced sale of goods and forced

10:43

labor ultimately led to more

10:45

than one rebellion in Central and South

10:48

America. And the one we're talking about

10:50

today was started by and

10:52

at least at first led by a

10:54

man named Jose Gabriel Condor Conqui. And

10:57

we will talk about him after a brief sponsor

10:59

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Gabriel Condor Conqui was born around 1742,

15:23

and he claimed that he could trace his

15:26

lineage back to the last ruler of the

15:28

Inca Empire, Tupac Amaru.

15:31

The first Tupac Amaru ruled the empire from 1571 to

15:33

1572 before being executed by the Spanish

15:37

at the age of 25 or 26. This

15:41

was at the end of Spain's conquest

15:43

of the Inca Empire, and with Tupac

15:45

Amaru's death, the throne was essentially abolished.

15:48

Condor Conqui had a formal Catholic

15:50

education. He spoke both Spanish and

15:52

Quechua fluently, and as an adult

15:55

he worked as a merchant and

15:57

a mule-a-tier. His education

16:00

his Inca heritage and his family's place

16:02

in the community, really uniquely positioned him

16:04

to be able to interact with every

16:06

class in Peruvian life, from the Spanish

16:09

ruling class to the most impoverished working

16:11

class. In 1750, Kondor

16:13

Kanki inherited the role of Curaca

16:15

of three towns in the Tinta

16:18

district, known as Surimana, Pampa Marca,

16:20

and Tungasuca, following the death of

16:22

his father. He had actually

16:24

grown up in Surimana, but as an adult,

16:27

he made his home in Tungasuca. 10

16:29

years after his father's death, he married

16:32

Michaela Batista, who became an equal partner

16:34

in his work as a merchant. In

16:37

1777, Kondor Kanki traveled to Lima

16:40

for eight months with the hope

16:42

of regaining a noble title. While

16:45

he was there, he met a lot of

16:47

Spanish nobility, and he gained a sense of

16:49

how the Spanish colonial government worked in Peru

16:51

and more at a bigger, more general scale

16:53

for the region as a whole. At

16:56

this point, tensions had already been rising

16:59

in South America for several years, and

17:01

as a result, there had been rebellions

17:03

and uprisings that had broken out within

17:05

Spanish territory in several places. The

17:08

corridor in the area where Kondor Kanki

17:10

lived was Antonio de Arriaga, and

17:13

as you might guess from our discussion of

17:15

the role of Coriador before the break, he

17:17

was not a beloved figure. Among

17:20

other things, he was responsible for

17:22

arranging an enormously unpopular labor draft

17:24

to staff a silver mine. Mining

17:26

was, of course, dangerous work, and the

17:28

mine itself was about 600 miles away.

17:33

Also, in the face of the ongoing

17:35

changes that came along with the Bourbon

17:37

reforms, Kondor Kanki was having an increasingly

17:39

difficult time in his role as Caracas.

17:42

More and more of the corridor's demands

17:44

were unreasonable and exploitive of the local

17:46

indigenous population, and a lot of them

17:48

were really despised by the people that

17:50

the corridor was governing. On

17:53

November 4th of 1780, Arriaga

17:55

and Kondor Kanki had dinner at the

17:57

home of Father Carlos Rodriguez. Kondarkonky's

18:00

old tutor. It

18:02

was, overall, a friendly meal, which celebrated

18:05

the feast day of St. Charles, known

18:07

in Spanish as San Carlos, and

18:09

later in the afternoon, Kondarkonky invited Ariaga

18:11

to spend the evening at his home.

18:14

Ariaga refused, saying that he needed to

18:16

get back to his own residence, probably

18:18

motivated, at least in part, by the

18:21

fact the tax payments were due to

18:23

him soon. When Ariaga left

18:25

with his entourage of staff and servants,

18:27

Kondarkonky and some other young men, Kondarkonky

18:30

was about 40 at this point, walked

18:33

with him for a while, and then

18:35

they said that they were going to

18:37

head back to Kondarkonky's home in Tungusuka.

18:39

And that wasn't really where they were

18:41

going, though. Instead, they stealthily got ahead

18:43

of Ariaga, and they ambushed him. Ariaga

18:46

tried to flee, but Kondarkonky's men

18:49

captured him and some of his

18:51

entourage. They took them all back

18:53

to Tungusuka, and they confined him

18:55

in a cell in Kondarkonky's basement.

18:59

Then Kondarkonky forced Ariaga to write

19:01

letters to his treasurer, in which

19:03

he claimed he was going to plan an expedition to

19:05

the coast to deal with a pirate problem. He

19:08

asked the treasurer to send money

19:10

and weapons. Then, Kondarkonky took Ariaga's

19:12

key and went to his home,

19:14

where he armed himself with muskets,

19:17

gunpowder, and bullets, as well as

19:19

taking money, mules, and silver. From

19:23

Ariaga's home, Kondarkonky also wrote letters

19:25

to a lot of other local

19:27

leaders, military figures and entrepreneurs, asking

19:29

them all to meet up in

19:32

Tungusuka. He signed Ariaga's name to

19:34

these letters, so he was basically writing them as

19:36

though he were Ariaga. He also

19:38

wrote to the other Caracas in the area,

19:40

asking them to send troops to Tungusuka as

19:42

well. And he started stationing

19:45

sentries along the road to Cuzco

19:47

to try to keep the Spanish

19:49

government from hearing about this massive

19:51

gathering that was starting to form

19:53

in Tungusuka. For

19:55

the next few days, all of these people

19:58

that Kondarkonky had written letters to started

20:00

arriving in Tungusuka. Thousands

20:03

of people arrived and had no idea

20:05

that the corridor was imprisoned in a

20:07

basement not far from where they were

20:09

congregating. Spanish leaders who

20:11

answered that call were also imprisoned.

20:15

On November 9th, Kondrakanki sent a priest

20:17

to Ariaga's cell to take his confession.

20:19

And at this point, Ariaga knew that

20:21

he was probably going to die. He

20:24

started trying to bargain with his

20:26

fortune. He basically offered Kondrakanki everything

20:28

he had in exchange for his

20:30

freedom, but Kondrakanki refused. Meanwhile,

20:33

Kondrakanki started telling people who had

20:35

assembled in Tungusuka that

20:37

he was acting under the authority of

20:40

the king, the high court, and visitor

20:42

general, Jose Antonio de Arreque. He

20:44

set them to practicing military maneuvers, and

20:46

he increasingly did something that he had

20:48

already been prone to doing, referring

20:51

to himself by the name of the

20:53

Inca Empire's last ruler and his ancestor,

20:55

Tupac Amaru. He

20:57

also conducted reviews of these maneuvers on horseback,

21:00

and he wore clothing that combined elements of

21:02

traditional indigenous attire, as well as the fine

21:04

silks and furs and gold that were a

21:07

lot more common among the Spanish aristocracy.

21:09

He's reported to have cut a very

21:11

fine figure doing this. On

21:14

the 10th, Tupac Amaru, Kondrakanki going

21:16

by that name, once again

21:19

had the assembled crowd, which numbered thousands

21:21

of people, line up in a

21:23

military formation. And then he had them

21:25

march to a nearby set of gallows. There

21:28

he had a proclamation read in both

21:30

Spanish and Quechuan. According to

21:32

this proclamation, the king had abolished the

21:34

sales tax, the custom houses, and the

21:36

forced labor draft of the silver mine.

21:39

And this proclamation went on. The

21:42

king's wish was for the indigenous South Americans and

21:44

the Creoles to live in harmony with one another.

21:46

Because that's the name that he adopted as he

21:48

led this rebellion, we're basically just gonna call him

21:50

Tupac Amaru for the rest of the episode. And

21:53

of course, none of these things that he was

21:56

proclaiming were actually true. He had written all of

21:58

these proclamations himself, but they were. of course,

22:00

extremely well received. And

22:03

then another important point was that all

22:05

of this information was delivered to the

22:07

indigenous people of the area in the

22:09

language that they actually spoke rather

22:11

than in Spanish. Then the

22:13

event moved on to something else purportedly authorized

22:16

by the king. And that was

22:18

the execution of Antonio de Arriaga. Soldiers

22:20

took Arriaga to the gallows and they

22:22

forced him to change out of his

22:25

military uniform and into a Franciscan habit.

22:27

Then Antonio Oblitas, who was an

22:30

enslaved African that Arriaga owned, was

22:32

forced to act as his executioner. In

22:35

the first of this episode's horrifying executions,

22:38

the rope broke and both

22:40

Arriaga and Oblitas fell. Instead

22:43

of being hanged, Arriaga was strangled

22:45

with several ropes. People screamed

22:48

epithets at him with some of the

22:50

loudest being hurled by Michaela Batista. While

22:53

Tupac Amaru had taken steps to keep word

22:55

of what was going on from reaching Cusco,

22:57

where it would then get to

23:00

the rest of the Spanish empire, the

23:02

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23:04

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23:06

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get back to the story, after

27:33

the execution of Antonio de Arayaga, Tupac

27:36

Amaru and his wife set off almost

27:38

immediately to try to raise more support

27:40

from nearby towns. They'd already

27:42

used their duplicity and strategy to amass

27:44

a really large following in Tungasuka, and

27:47

the two of them then started using

27:49

the extensive connections that they had developed

27:51

to recruit more people to their cause.

27:54

Tupac Amaru himself used his new name

27:56

and the connections to the Inca Empire

27:59

that existed from his

28:01

lineage to spread the idea that the

28:03

Inca were returning. With this

28:05

thought inspiring the rebels, they tried to take

28:07

the fight to the Spanish. Initially,

28:10

the targets of the rebellion were very

28:12

narrow. He didn't

28:15

want the priests, the mestizos, or

28:17

the Creoles to be harmed, only

28:19

Spanish leaders from Europe, and especially

28:21

the corridors. Local landowners

28:23

and others whose behavior had been

28:25

exploitative were to be imprisoned but

28:27

not killed. Since Spain

28:29

hadn't yet raised an army to resist

28:31

them, these first few excursions were relatively

28:34

bloodless. In every town

28:36

that they visited, Tupacamaru would speak in both

28:38

Spanish and Quechua, and he would recruit as

28:40

many people as he could to join the

28:42

rebellion. He still was insisting that he was

28:44

actually acting under orders from the king. The

28:47

rebels would also abolish any taxes and force labor

28:49

drafts in the towns that they went to. They

28:51

would burn down the textile mills where people had

28:54

been forced to work, and they would free anyone

28:56

who was being held in the jail. They

28:58

would also burn down the gallows. They'd

29:01

get as many provisions as they could from the

29:03

stores of the local corridor and other landowners in

29:05

the area, and then they would move on to

29:07

the next town. He

29:09

also wrote lots of letters and

29:11

proclamations, issuing orders to neighboring towns

29:13

to turn away from the Spanish

29:16

and granting local leaders the authority to act

29:18

in his stead. On

29:20

November 16, Tupacamaru wrote a

29:22

proclamation calling for the emancipation

29:25

of enslaved Africans and Afro-Peruvians.

29:28

On the 17th, in the aftermath of a

29:30

battle that had played out in a church

29:32

and had accidentally destroyed part of the structure

29:34

of the church in a fire, the

29:37

bishop excommunicated Tupacamaru

29:39

and his followers. Tupacamaru and

29:41

his wife were both extremely devout Catholics, and they

29:43

really had not intended any harm to come to

29:46

this church at all. As we said earlier, they

29:48

had been trying to protect the clergy the whole

29:50

time. So this was both devastating

29:52

to them personally, and it was a strike

29:54

against them in terms of public opinion. Just

29:57

as a side note, in the end, there were

29:59

priests. and others associated with the

30:01

church on both sides of this conflict.

30:05

Soon, though, this rebellion spread beyond the

30:07

Andes Mountains, and the bigger it got,

30:09

and the farther away from Tupac Amaru's

30:12

base, at his home in Tungusuka, the

30:14

bloodier and more violent it became. Spanish

30:17

and royalist forces started calling in reinforcements

30:19

and gathering militia, meaning that the rebels

30:21

had to fight their way through rather

30:24

than basically walking into towns and declaring

30:26

that the Spanish government was no longer

30:28

in charge. By the

30:30

end of the year, Spain's control on

30:32

colonial Peru had started to really crumble.

30:35

As the rebellion got bigger and bigger,

30:37

more and more people got swept up

30:39

in it, and the original instructions to

30:41

harm only the Spanish ruling class started

30:43

to fall away. A lot

30:45

of people really just got caught in the

30:47

crossfire. More and more innocent people were harmed

30:49

by both sides as the conflict got bigger

30:52

and bloodier. At the

30:54

start of 1781, Spain, having raised

30:56

an army of thousands of soldiers,

30:59

started actively trying to find and

31:01

capture Tupac Amaru. On

31:04

April 7th, they trapped Michaela and two of

31:06

her sons. Michaela and Tupac

31:08

Amaru had gotten separated from one another

31:10

about a month before this, and they

31:12

had always planned that, should something happen,

31:14

they would flee through the south. When

31:17

he heard that his wife had been captured,

31:19

Tupac Amaru did just that, and along the

31:21

way, one of his followers, a man named

31:23

Ventura Londieta, insisted that

31:25

he stop and take a rest. It

31:28

turned out that this was a trap.

31:30

Tupac Amaru was taken into Spanish custody,

31:32

along with his wife and children. Along

31:34

with other prisoners, Tupac Amaru and

31:36

Michaela Bastidas were put on trial

31:39

that April, and when Tupac

31:41

Amaru refused to incriminate himself or name

31:43

any of his accomplices, he was

31:46

tortured by stretching. His

31:48

wife, on the other hand, claimed that she

31:50

knew very little about the rebellion and had

31:52

in fact been coerced into participating. After days

31:56

of being questioned and sometimes tortured, on May

31:58

18th, 1781,

32:01

Tupac Amaru and Mikaela Bastidas were

32:03

taken to the gallows for the

32:05

other horrifying execution in this episode.

32:08

First, they were made to watch the

32:10

executions of other prisoners. Some of them

32:12

were family members. One of them was

32:15

actually their eldest son. These

32:17

other prisoners were dragged behind horses and

32:19

had their tongues cut out before they

32:21

were hanged. One was placed

32:23

in a chair and slowly strangled with an

32:25

iron bar before being hanged to confirm that

32:28

she was dead. Sources

32:30

actually disagree on exactly how

32:32

Mikaela Bastidas was executed. However,

32:34

universally she is described as being

32:37

tortured to death, while her

32:39

husband, Tupac Amaru, was made

32:41

to watch. And

32:43

then in the thing that caused me to I am Holly

32:45

and tell her this sounded like it was out of Game

32:47

of Thrones, Tupac Amaru's tongue was cut

32:50

out. His limbs were tied to four

32:52

horses in order to be quartered. They

32:54

didn't actually quarter him though. His limbs were

32:56

dislocated but not severed from his body. Then

32:59

he was beheaded. This time his youngest

33:01

son who was 10 years old was

33:04

made to watch. After

33:07

the executions, Tupac Amaru and Mikaela's

33:09

bodies were dismembered and the parts

33:11

were sent to surrounding cities to

33:14

serve as a warning while their

33:16

torsos were burned on a bonfire. Their

33:19

executions didn't stop the rebellion though. Other

33:21

leaders moved into Tupac Amaru's place. Some

33:24

of them also taking a similar name,

33:26

including his successor Diego Tupac Amaru. He

33:28

would also be executed on July 19th, 1873. Eventually

33:31

after numerous gory executions, the

33:37

rebellion failed. About 100,000 people

33:40

were killed, most of them indigenous South

33:42

Americans. Spain put increasing

33:45

restrictions on South America's indigenous

33:47

people in the hope of

33:49

preventing another uprising, including forbidding

33:51

the Tupac Amaru rebellion from

33:53

being discussed or written about

33:55

at all. Tupac Amaru

33:57

is still a really well-known figure in South

33:59

America. although Michaela Bestidas has

34:01

largely been written out of a lot of

34:03

accounts, in spite of the fact that she

34:05

was a leader of this rebellion also. Tupac

34:09

Amaru's name and image have also

34:11

been used as part of other

34:13

revolutionary movements. And if you're

34:15

interested in hearing more about the story, there

34:18

is a pretty recent book, which is actually

34:20

how I heard about this in the first

34:22

place, was reviewing a catalog

34:24

of recently published books. It

34:26

is by Charles F. Walker,

34:29

and it is called the Tupac Amaru

34:31

Rebellion. And it is from the Belknap Press

34:33

of Harvard University Press. It actually came out

34:35

in 2014, but I think there's a paperback

34:37

of it that is coming out soon. And

34:40

it goes into a lot more detail

34:42

than what we have talked about

34:44

today. It especially gets into a

34:46

lot of the more specifics about

34:48

the individual actions

34:51

between, the

34:53

individual actions between the rebels and the

34:55

Spanish and specifics on where

34:58

all of this fighting took place

35:00

and how it all played out.

35:02

And then also some more about

35:04

how it later affected the colonial

35:06

government in South America. Thanks

35:14

so much for joining us on this Saturday,

35:16

since this episode is out of the archive.

35:18

If you heard an email address or a

35:20

Facebook URL or something similar over the course

35:22

of the show, that could be obsolete now.

35:25

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35:27

address is historypodcastatihartradio.com.

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