0:01

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class,

0:03

a production of iHeartRadio.

0:11

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

0:14

Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly

0:16

Frye. Before we start today's episode,

0:18

one more time, we are

0:20

going to do a live show at the

0:23

Indiana Historical Society. This

0:25

is on Friday, July nineteenth, twenty

0:27

twenty four. So if you are listening to this

0:29

podcast way in the future, twenty

0:32

twenty four, that's the year we're talking about.

0:35

This is going to be at the Eugene and Maryland Glick

0:38

Indiana History Center again

0:41

July nineteenth, twenty twenty four.

0:44

Holly and I did a show there back

0:48

before the pandemic started, had a great

0:50

time. It's been a very long time since

0:52

we've done a lot of live shows, so it's nice

0:55

to be working toward doing some again.

0:57

Yes, indeed, this will be from

1:00

seven thirty to eight thirty. There will

1:02

also be a meet and greet before

1:04

the show, so folks can either buy

1:06

a ticket to the show or a ticket

1:08

that includes that meet and greet. And

1:11

to get more information, you can go to www

1:15

dot Indianahistory dot

1:17

org slash events.

1:21

And now we will move on to

1:24

the actual episode. Back

1:26

in twenty seventeen, when

1:28

everyone in the world, it seemed like, was talking

1:31

about the solar eclipse that was about

1:33

to be visible from North America. Holly

1:36

put together an episode on a

1:38

handful of eclipses in history, and

1:41

I don't think it really entered

1:43

our minds at the time that

1:45

in almost seven years after

1:47

that there would be another total solar eclipse

1:50

visible from North America, and that it would

1:52

also, like that earlier one,

1:54

be happening on a day when a new episode

1:57

of our show comes out. For

1:59

my pot art, pretty much the minute the

2:01

twenty seventeen eclipse was over, the

2:04

group of folks that I was traveling with started

2:06

talking about where we should go to

2:08

see the next one. Uh.

2:11

I definitely though, was not thinking, hmm,

2:14

what should we do on the podcast for

2:16

the next solar eclipse? Uh?

2:19

Did not enter my mind. But here we are, solar

2:22

eclipse happening today on the

2:24

day this podcast comes out. So I found another

2:26

eclipse related topic. On

2:29

May twenty eighth, in the year five eighty

2:31

five BCE, there was a

2:34

total solar eclipse during a battle

2:36

between the kingdoms of Media and Lydia,

2:39

and this eclipse had been predicted

2:41

by Thailees of my leadas, and

2:43

it led to the ends of both the battle

2:46

and the war that the battle was a part of. Except

2:49

turns out there is

2:51

debate about every single thing that

2:53

I just said that has been going on for

2:56

centuries. We're going to be talking

2:58

about these events and the debate around them.

3:00

Also, according to Herodotus,

3:04

one of the reasons that this battle was

3:06

being fought involved a particularly

3:09

horrific incident of cannibalism.

3:12

So just heads up on that. The

3:14

details surrounding the eclipse and

3:16

the battle aren't the only subjects of

3:18

debate in today's episode. Another

3:21

is Stalley's of Militis himself.

3:23

There are lots and lots of references

3:25

to him in ancient writing, but we have no

3:27

contemporary sources about his

3:30

life. All the references we

3:32

have on him first appeared in writing much

3:34

much later. Let's just start

3:37

with when he lived. One

3:39

source on that is Diogenes

3:42

Lartius, who was born around one

3:44

eighty CE. Just

3:46

to be clear, that is not the same person as

3:48

Diogenes the Senic, who we have covered

3:50

on the show before. Diogenes the senc

3:53

lived a long time before Diogenes

3:56

Laardius also, we

3:58

are not going to pretend to try to

4:00

say any of these names the

4:02

way they were quote authentically pronounced.

4:05

That's kind of not possible to piece

4:07

together at this point. But Diogenes

4:09

Laardiis was referencing a Polydorus

4:12

of Athens, and a Polydorus of Athens

4:14

was born around one eighty BCE,

4:17

so these two men were born more than three

4:19

hundred and fifty years apart, and then Thales

4:22

was born another three

4:24

hundred and fifty years or so before

4:27

a Polydorus of Athens. Ancient

4:29

Greek chroniclers and historians used

4:32

Olympiads to count years, with each

4:34

Olympiad spanning the four year

4:36

period between Olympic Games.

4:39

According to Diogenes, who was referencing

4:41

a Polydorus, Thales died

4:43

at the age of seventy eight and was born

4:46

during the thirty fifth Olympiad that

4:48

started in six forty BCE. He

4:51

died during the fifty eighth Olympiad,

4:53

which started in five forty eight BCE,

4:57

but this would have made his age more like ninety

4:59

not seventy eight. Most

5:02

sources agree that there's a transcription error

5:04

in the Olympiad of his birth, and that Thales

5:06

was really born during the thirty ninth Olympiad

5:09

that started in six twenty four BCE.

5:12

So if you're keeping score, we have

5:14

one source quoting another source, both

5:16

of whom lived centuries later, and

5:18

a mistake, and we are only three

5:21

paragraphs into this thing. We

5:23

also know very little about Thales's

5:26

life, including who his parents were.

5:28

There are some ancient sources that say

5:30

his mother was Phoenician. Others

5:33

give his parents names as Examise

5:36

and Cleobulin, but we don't

5:39

know anything about them either. Beyond those

5:41

possible names, there is general

5:44

agreement that he was born in

5:46

Miletus in Ionia on the aeg

5:48

and c. This was a trading hub

5:51

and an intellectual center, and that's on the

5:53

Aegean coast, in an area that

5:55

today is part of Turkya. Guess

5:57

what else. We don't have any

6:00

surviving writing by Thales or

6:02

any exact quotes of his writing in other

6:04

later material. Instead,

6:06

what we do have is lots and lots of descriptions

6:09

of what he wrote about, and references

6:11

to ideas that he put forth, and

6:14

various facts and ideas that are attributed

6:16

to him. So all that said,

6:18

Thales was reportedly brilliant. He

6:21

was named as one of the seven wise men

6:23

or sopoy of Plato's Protagoras.

6:27

Plato described Theales and these six

6:29

other men as quote enthusiasts,

6:31

lovers, and disciples of the Spartan

6:33

culture. And you can recognize

6:35

that character in their wisdom by

6:38

the short, memorable sayings that fell

6:40

from each of them. They assembled

6:42

together and dedicated these as the

6:44

first fruits of their lore to Apollo

6:47

in his Delphic temple. So

6:49

these maxims include things like no

6:52

thyself and nothing in excess,

6:54

both of which are attributed to Thales.

6:58

He's also credited as being one of the founders

7:00

of the Milesian school of philosophy,

7:02

also called the Ionian school. The

7:05

three figures most associated with this

7:07

school are Thales, his student

7:09

an Aximander, and an axemander

7:11

student in Aximenes. All

7:14

three had a focus on astronomy and

7:16

cosmology, and all three put

7:18

forth ideas about what the universe

7:21

was fundamentally made of. Some

7:23

of their ideas were really dissimilar,

7:25

though, so some scholars described the Milesian

7:28

school as more of a geographic

7:30

descriptor than any kind of unified

7:32

school of thought. Here are

7:34

some ideas that various ancient sources

7:36

attribute to Thales. Water

7:39

or perhaps fluid, is the fundamental

7:41

substance that makes up everything in the universe.

7:44

Also, everything has a soul, which

7:46

is sometimes described as gods residing

7:49

in everything. This offered

7:51

an explanation for magnetism. Loadstones

7:54

could attract iron because of the

7:56

souls that were residing within them.

8:00

According to Aristotle, Sales described

8:02

the Earth as floating on an infinite

8:04

sea of water. Seneca

8:06

said he used this floating earth to explain

8:09

the cause of earthquakes. Of

8:11

course, this is not what causes earthquakes,

8:13

but this is sometimes described as a

8:15

step away from blaming natural phenomena

8:17

on the behavior of gods and towards

8:20

a more rational and observable science.

8:23

Side note, sources written today often

8:25

describe Sale's concept of the earth

8:28

as a flat disk floating on that

8:30

water, but surviving references

8:32

don't actually specify a shape

8:34

for this floating earth. It's

8:37

pretty easy to conclude that he meant that

8:39

it was a disk, because if there were a globe

8:42

floating on the water, how would

8:44

the people on the underwater portion of

8:46

it breathe? Like? Is there an atmosphere?

8:49

Like? How is it working is

8:51

it concased in something? Don't know? According

8:54

to Aristotle, Anaximenes

8:56

and an Aximander believed that the

8:58

Earth was lats, but

9:01

earlier in the same sentence that he mentioned

9:03

them, he also said some people

9:06

thought the earth was spherical? So

9:08

does that some include bailies?

9:11

If this description was meant to be in chronological

9:14

order, it could have, but like, we

9:16

just really don't know. The

9:18

entry on Thales of my Ladas at the Internet

9:21

Encyclopedia of Philosophy argues that

9:23

Thales likely thought the Earth was a

9:25

sphere for the same reasons that Aristotle

9:27

did, including things like seeing ships

9:30

sail away into the distance with their hulls

9:32

disappearing below the horizon before

9:34

their masts and sails. This

9:37

entry doesn't really explain why Anteximotes

9:39

and an Aximander, who would have had access

9:41

to these same observations, would

9:43

have concluded otherwise, though, or why

9:45

we should conclude that Theales had different

9:48

ideas on this idea than the two

9:50

of them. Yeah, I've read this entry

9:52

and I felt kind of convinced, and then I was like, wait,

9:54

why am I convinced? Though I'm

9:56

not, I still have questions. Also

10:00

reportedly calculated the height of the

10:02

Great Pyramids of Egypt using geometry

10:05

by comparing the length of their shadow

10:07

to the length of the shadow of his staff.

10:10

He may have written a navigational work

10:12

called the Nautical Star Guide,

10:15

although Diogenes Leargists says

10:17

this was by Phocos of Samos. Some

10:20

accounts say Thales diverted

10:22

the river hallis now known in Turkish

10:24

as the Kazillermac River into

10:26

a channel so that King Criesus could cross

10:29

it with an army, and that he united

10:31

the city states of Ionia in the face

10:33

of aggression from the Kingdom of Lydia. We

10:36

mentioned in our episode about Gerardis Mercader

10:39

that Theal's is sometimes credited

10:41

with making the first map projection. In

10:43

this case, it was a star chart. Since

10:46

making a map projection involves

10:49

making a two dimensional map from

10:51

a three dimensional globe, that's

10:53

what it is. This means that he

10:55

recognized that the visible night sky

10:58

had a curved surface, even

11:01

if he thought the earth below it was flat.

11:03

Again seen two arguments

11:05

on this that kind of contradicts the infinite

11:07

sea concept. Well, if you

11:10

sort of imagine, like, uh, one

11:12

of those poppamatic bubbles where

11:15

the flat part is the earth, and the

11:17

domed part is the night sky, and then infinite

11:19

sea all around it. Oh yeah,

11:21

I guess sometimes.

11:25

Daylees is described as bringing geometry

11:27

to Greece from Egypt, and he's sometimes credited

11:30

with several geometric theorems. Some

11:32

of them include that a circle is bisected

11:35

by its diameter, that if two sides

11:37

of a triangle or of equal length, the

11:39

angles opposite those sides are also equal,

11:41

and that opposite angles formed by intersecting

11:44

straight lines are also equal.

11:47

Daylees is sometimes even credited with coming

11:49

up with the entire idea of geometric

11:52

proofs. There are also

11:54

a couple of anecdotes about

11:56

Daylies that paint almost contradictory

11:59

pictures of him as a person. One

12:02

as that once upon a time someone criticized

12:05

him for not using his wisdom to

12:07

get rich. So based

12:09

on his observations of the heavens, he

12:12

predicted that there was going to be a larger

12:14

than normal olive crop that year, and

12:17

he got control of all the olive

12:19

presses in the area, so

12:21

when that crop was harvested, everybody

12:24

had to pay him to press their olives

12:26

into oil. And then, having proved his

12:28

point that he could get rich with his brain if he wanted

12:31

to. He went back to his own work and left olive

12:33

pressing behind. Aristotle

12:36

is one of the sources for this story, but he

12:38

doesn't actually seem to really believe it or think.

12:40

He thinks that if it did happen, it wasn't something

12:42

that Theales did. Among

12:45

other things, even if

12:47

the olive crop hadn't been particularly

12:50

large, he still would have had a

12:52

monopoly on all the presses. Theylies

12:55

definitely didn't invent the idea of the

12:57

monopoly. The other is

13:00

his story reported by Plato, who said

13:02

that one time Thales was so focused

13:04

on studying the night sky that he fell

13:06

into a well listen who among

13:09

us? When a servant pulled him out, She

13:11

made fun of him, asking rhetorically how

13:13

he could hope to learn about the heavens when he

13:15

could not even watch his feet. Yeah,

13:18

according to the stories, he was both very

13:20

astute and incredibly absent minded. Uh.

13:23

This episode feels like it was already two thirds

13:26

caveats, but we have still more caveats,

13:28

Like we really don't have any way of knowing whether

13:31

Thalies actually accomplished a lot

13:33

of these things that were attributed to him.

13:36

It's possible that since he was an early

13:38

Greek philosopher who was reputed

13:40

to be very wise, people just gave

13:42

him credit for things that didn't

13:44

have a clear origin point. It

13:47

was not all that unusual to sort of

13:49

attribute things to early Greek

13:51

philosophers. Even the ancient

13:53

Greek sources that comment on his life and

13:56

work do not suggest that they had any

13:58

first hand access to any

14:00

of his writing to back any of this up.

14:03

And there are so many sources today

14:05

that describe Thales as the

14:07

first Greek philosopher or the first

14:09

scientist or first astronomer, and

14:12

claim that ancient Greek scholars

14:14

described him that way as well. But

14:16

the idea that Thales established Greek

14:18

philosophy and that Greek philosophy

14:20

then formed the foundation for the entirety

14:23

of Western thought really seems

14:25

to have started to evolve in Europe around

14:27

the eighteenth century. In writing that is

14:29

threaded through with so much xenophobia

14:32

and racism, it's likely

14:34

that much of Thali's seemingly groundbreaking

14:36

knowledge actually came from Egypt.

14:39

Thales's eclipse prediction and

14:41

the Battle of the Eclipse are intertwined.

14:44

We are going to start with that battle after

14:46

a sponsor break, and that is the part of the

14:48

show that will have the horrific cannibalism

14:50

in it. Our

15:01

earliest source on the Battle of the Eclipse

15:03

is by Herodotus, who lived from

15:06

around for eighty four BCE to

15:08

around four thirty BCE, so

15:11

that was more than one hundred years after the death

15:13

of Thales, in a century or so

15:15

before this battle is believed to have happened.

15:19

Here is what Herodotus had to say. Quote,

15:22

there had a risen war between the

15:24

Lydians and the Medis, lasting five

15:26

years, in which years the

15:28

Medis often discomfited the Lydians,

15:31

and the Lydians often discomfited the

15:33

Medis, and among others they

15:35

fought also a battle by night, and

15:38

as they still carried on the war with

15:40

equally balanced fortune, in the sixth

15:43

year a battle took place, in which it happened

15:45

when the fight had begun, that suddenly

15:48

the day became night. And

15:50

this change of the day Theales

15:52

the Milesian, had foretold to

15:55

the Ionians, laying down as

15:57

a limit this very year in

15:59

which the change took place. The

16:01

Lydians, however, and the Medis, when

16:03

they saw that it had become night and

16:05

said of day ceased from

16:07

their fighting and were much more

16:10

eager both of them that peace should

16:12

be made between them. So

16:14

to contextualize that a bit, Lydia

16:17

occupied much of what is now western Turkia,

16:20

and it was heavily influenced by neighboring

16:22

Ionia, where Thales was from.

16:24

The Medis were the people of Media, which occupied

16:27

what's now northwestern Iran as well

16:29

as parts of what's now Azerbaijan and Iraq.

16:32

It's possible that there was a pretty mundane

16:35

reason for this war. It had started

16:37

when Aliades was king of Lydia and

16:39

Sayagsaris was king of Media. Both

16:43

were trying to expand their kingdoms and annexed

16:45

the territory that lay between Lydia

16:47

and Media, which brought the two kingdoms

16:49

into conflict with each other. But

16:52

sometimes Herodotus's histories

16:54

included stories that were really compelling

16:56

but not necessarily substantiated.

17:00

We've mentioned that previously on the show, and

17:02

we've talked about Herodotus and he offers

17:04

a way more horrifying and gruesome

17:07

explanation for this war that

17:10

was connected to a group of Scythians.

17:13

Scythians were a nomadic people who

17:15

migrated from Central Asia to what's

17:17

now Russia and Ukraine.

17:19

Eventually their empire was centered on what's

17:21

now Crimea. Their

17:24

history can be tricky to put together because

17:26

they didn't use writing, and a

17:28

number of ancient sources that did write

17:30

about them sometimes conflated

17:32

them with other nomadic peoples who

17:35

spoke Iranian languages. Also,

17:38

a lot of these sources were describing

17:40

a society that their own people

17:42

or their allies had been attacked by,

17:45

which of course influenced how they

17:47

wrote about these other people. But

17:49

the Scythians were known for their horsemanship,

17:51

their archery, and their prowess in combat,

17:55

very broadly speaking. When this war

17:57

took place, the Scythians controlled territory

18:00

to the northwest of Media and across

18:02

the Black Sea from Lydia. But

18:05

more than a century prior, the Scythians had

18:07

controlled Media and the Medes had

18:09

expelled the Scythian Empire from their territory

18:12

sometime around six hundred BCE, but

18:15

there were still small groups and bands

18:17

in the area after this point. So

18:19

according to Herodotus's history, there

18:21

was a group of Scythians who were feuding

18:24

with the rest of their people at

18:26

first, Syaksaris offered them his protection,

18:28

and he also sent some boys to the

18:30

Cythians to be taught their language

18:33

and to learn archery. But

18:35

one day the Cythians went hunting, and

18:37

they came back empty handed, and Sayaksari's

18:40

quote dealt with them very harshly

18:43

and used insult towards them.

18:46

According to Herodotus, in response,

18:48

the Scythians quote planned to kill

18:51

and cut up one of the boys who were

18:53

being instructed among them, and having

18:55

dressed his flesh as they had been wont

18:57

to dress the wild animals to

19:00

you, bear it to siaks Aris and give

19:02

it to him, pretending that it was game

19:04

taken in hunting. There

19:06

are also some later sources that suggest

19:08

that this boy was one of Syaxari's's

19:11

own children, or some other

19:13

child who was part of the royal family. Once

19:17

they had done this, the Scythians fled

19:19

from media, and quote Sayasaris

19:21

with the guests who ate at his table tasted

19:24

of that meat, and the Scythians, having

19:26

so done, became suppliants for the protection

19:28

of Aliades. Sayasis

19:31

demanded that Aliades return the Scythians

19:34

to him so they could be brought to justice, and

19:36

Aliades refused, and that started

19:39

a war, one in which, according

19:41

to what we read earlier, the two

19:43

sides were pretty evenly matched for more

19:45

than five years. Herodotus

19:48

states that after this battle, in which

19:50

the day turned into night and the two

19:53

armies were inspired to lay down their arms,

19:55

two men helped negotiate a

19:57

peace. One was si

20:00

Ansis of Cilia and one was

20:02

Libidinous of Babylon. Other

20:04

sources say that the Babylonian negotiator

20:07

was actually King Nebuchinezer. The second this

20:10

treaty involved a marriage between

20:12

Aliats's daughter Arhinius

20:14

and Sayaksaris's son Astyages.

20:17

There are some other fragmented writings

20:20

that suggest that maybe there was also a second

20:22

marriage between a Median

20:24

princess and either Aliates

20:27

or Aliati's son Cretius.

20:29

We have all whole episode on Cretius, and since

20:32

this is the second time that he has come up,

20:34

we will run that as a Saturday Classic sometime

20:37

soon. It's probably not

20:39

surprising based on how many caveats

20:41

were involved in our discussion of Thales, but

20:44

there are various conflicting accounts of this

20:46

war. Besides the conflicting details

20:48

that we've already mentioned and scholars

20:50

have been trying to piece together all of these

20:52

details for literally centuries.

20:55

One question is whether Sayaksaris

20:57

was king of Media for the entire content.

21:00

The account of Herodotus suggests that he

21:03

was, as does Clement of Alexandria,

21:06

but Cicero and other sources

21:08

say that Saya Czaris died at some point

21:10

during the conflict or during the

21:12

battle, and was succeeded by his son Astyages,

21:15

who continued the war with the Lydians.

21:18

Some translations of Herodotus interpret

21:21

the treaty negotiations as happening

21:23

under Astiagies and not Saya

21:25

Csari's. There's also some

21:27

debate about exactly where the

21:29

border between these two kingdoms was

21:31

set under this treaty. The Kazillarmac

21:34

River is a logical and kind of widely

21:37

assumed borderline, but it's not

21:39

really spelled out specifically in

21:41

the surviving accounts. But the last

21:44

big question is when and where the battle

21:46

happened, which is connected to when and where the

21:48

eclipse happened, and that ties

21:51

in to exactly what Theales predicted

21:53

about the eclipse and how or

21:55

whether he could have made such a prediction. And

21:57

we're going to talk more about all of that after

22:00

or a sponsor break. If

22:11

you read about the battle of the eclipse

22:13

in a newspaper or a magazine, maybe

22:16

a website meant for a general audience

22:18

today, maybe today specifically,

22:20

because this is something that's gotten just a lot of

22:22

attention in the run

22:25

up to this today's eclipse, it'll

22:28

probably say that this eclipse happened

22:30

on May twenty eighth, five eighty five BCE.

22:33

That's the date that I said up at the top of the show.

22:35

And most of the time it comes across

22:38

as like this is and always

22:40

has been the definitive

22:42

date that was established for the eclipse and

22:45

consequently the battle. Some

22:47

sources go so far as to say that

22:49

because we know exactly when

22:52

and where this eclipse occurred, we

22:54

also know exactly when and where the

22:56

battle happened, meaning it is one

22:58

of the first events and where

23:00

we can pinpoint the exact

23:03

date, time and place. Naturally,

23:06

it's way more complicated than that. The

23:09

account of Herodotus doesn't really say

23:11

that there was a solar eclipse. He said

23:13

that day turned tonight. Most

23:16

sources interpret that as being about a solar

23:18

eclipse, and that's the most obvious possible explanation.

23:22

This is especially true since Herodotus

23:24

also put it in the context of a prediction,

23:27

unless someone just makes a lucky guess.

23:29

Successfully predicting an eclipse requires

23:31

knowledge of math, geometry, and

23:33

astronomy, and predicting where it will

23:35

actually be visible also requires

23:38

a knowledge of geography, so the

23:40

ability to predict eclipse is also

23:42

seen as an indication of where a society

23:45

is. In terms of all of this needed

23:47

knowledge, it would make sense for someone

23:49

who had the reputed brilliance of Thales

23:52

to be credited with this kind of prediction. At

23:54

the same time, there are also Greek

23:57

accounts of philosopher anex Agoris

23:59

predicting a meteor strike that

24:02

is not something you can predict in the same

24:04

way that you would predict an eclipse. We've

24:07

talked about EnEx Agris on the show before,

24:10

but not about this whole meteor prediction. So

24:13

it's like within the realm

24:15

of possibility that Theyales

24:17

predicted some other phenomenon

24:19

that could turn day into night, one

24:22

that wouldn't necessarily be predictable

24:25

in the same way that an eclipse is. Some

24:27

of the other possible explanations

24:29

for the day turning intonight include more

24:32

mundane things like a very sudden,

24:34

dense cloud cover moving in, or

24:37

things that are a lot more dramatic, like atmospheric

24:40

debris from a volcanic eruption or

24:42

smoke from a massive fire. Herodotus

24:45

also didn't specify when exactly

24:48

they Lees had predicted this eclipse would happen.

24:51

According to the translation that Tracy used

24:53

for this episode, Herodotus just said

24:56

Theaylees had foretold it to the Ionians

24:58

quote laying down as a limit

25:00

this very year in which the change took

25:02

place. Neither he nor

25:04

later Greek writers specified which

25:07

year they Lees had predicted, although some

25:09

did correlate that prediction with a specific

25:12

eclipse that by that point was known

25:14

to have occurred sometime in the

25:16

six or seventh century BCE. There

25:19

are so many not entirely

25:21

answered questions about all of this.

25:24

First, if Theyales really

25:27

did successfully predict

25:29

a solar eclipse, meaning

25:31

he did some kind of calculation rather

25:34

than just making a lucky guess,

25:37

how did he do it? One

25:39

common idea is that he used something

25:42

called the Babylonian saras,

25:44

which is a cycle of two hundred and twenty

25:46

three lunar months or eighteen years

25:48

ten days and eight hours in

25:51

which there is a repeating pattern

25:53

of eclipses. This

25:56

cycle does exist, but it's not entirely

25:58

clear what the Babylonians knew about it.

26:01

Lunar eclipses are visible only at night,

26:03

and solar eclipses are very brief

26:05

and are fully visible only in a narrow

26:08

band that is not in the same place

26:10

from one solar eclipse to the next, So

26:13

it's possible that the Babylonians had

26:15

enough records of lunar eclipses to spot

26:17

a pattern among them, but this probably

26:19

would not be true for solar eclipses.

26:22

In nineteen fifty two, mathematician

26:24

Otto Neugebauer argued that the idea

26:26

that the Babylonians used the Sero cycle

26:28

to predict eclipses came from an error

26:31

made by Edmund Halley in the late

26:34

seventeenth century and then picked

26:36

up by basically everyone else who

26:38

wrote about eclipses for the next three hundred

26:40

years. I guess if you're going to pick up

26:42

somebody's mistake and repeat it for

26:45

Halle's a good one, why not start with Edmund Halley?

26:48

Again? There is a real pattern there.

26:50

It's pretty obvious using something

26:53

like a color coded chart of

26:55

all the various types of

26:57

eclipses, and today

27:01

we have things like measurements taken

27:03

using reflectors that astronauts

27:05

left on the Moon in

27:07

order to allow us to like more

27:09

specifically track and measure the movement

27:12

of the Moon. We have way more

27:14

precise data on this and what this pattern

27:17

actually looks like. It

27:19

is just not as clear how much

27:21

the Babylonians understood about

27:24

this and whether it could have been

27:26

enough to allow Thales to use it to

27:28

make a prediction about a solar

27:31

eclipse. While there's various

27:33

other speculation about methods Dalies

27:36

may have used to predict the eclipse, it's

27:38

possible that it was just a lucky guess,

27:41

or it could be that the dramatic intersection

27:43

between a battle and eclipse and the end

27:45

of a six year war seemed

27:48

like something someone as wise as Day's

27:50

would have predicted. Some of

27:52

the sources that were used in this episode conclude

27:54

that there was no prediction and that this entire

27:57

story is made up, or

27:59

that the idea of day turning into

28:01

night was actually more of a literary

28:03

trope than an actual description of what was

28:06

happening in the sky. There

28:08

are even some arguments that the armies

28:10

were so preoccupied with fighting that they

28:13

fought into the night and then

28:15

decided to lay down their arms when they realized

28:17

what they had done. This

28:20

last interpretation, though, doesn't work with translations

28:22

that also say that night then turned

28:24

back to day unless it all took a

28:26

really long time. By

28:30

the sixteenth century, mathematicians

28:33

and astronomers knew a lot more about

28:35

the solar system and mathematics,

28:37

and were using the movement of the Earth

28:39

and the Moon to more precisely calculate

28:42

when previous eclipses had

28:44

happened, and they started proposing

28:47

eclipses that could have been

28:49

the one connected to Thales, again

28:51

based on more specific

28:54

math rather than kind of guessing. Setus

28:57

Calvisius put the year at six O

28:59

seven. Isaac

29:01

Newton said it was five eighty five BCE.

29:04

Henry Usher said six zho one BCE.

29:07

That is really just a sample. I

29:10

don't think that's even half of the

29:12

ones that were put forth. But these and

29:14

other astronomers in the seventeenth and eighteenth

29:17

centuries kind of narrowed it down to

29:19

eclipses that had happened sometime

29:22

between six twenty six BCE and

29:24

five eighty five BCE. Astronomer

29:27

Francis Bailey took up the question again in

29:29

the nineteenth century and concluded

29:32

that the Theailey's eclipse had taken place on

29:34

September thirtieth, six ' ten

29:36

BCE, because based on his calculations,

29:39

that's the only one that would have reached totality

29:41

and would have crossed what was then known as the River

29:44

Hallas in the general area where

29:46

the battle was believed to have taken place.

29:49

By this point, so many people

29:51

had tried to figure this out. In

29:53

Bailey's words, quote, there is probably

29:56

no fact in ancient history

29:58

that has given rise to so many discussions

30:01

and to such a variety of opinions

30:03

as the solar eclipse, which, according to

30:05

Herodotus, is said to have been predicted

30:07

by Thales, in which, owing to a very

30:10

singular coincidence, put an end

30:12

to a furious war that raged between Sayaksari's

30:15

King of Media and Aliaates,

30:17

king of Lydia. Bailey

30:19

wrote this in eighteen eleven, which

30:21

was before even more work about it was published

30:24

later in the nineteenth century, after

30:26

astronomers started to realize that earlier

30:28

calculations didn't account for small

30:30

shifts in the moon's movement known as secular

30:33

acceleration. These small

30:35

shifts could have a big effect on exactly

30:37

what a solar eclipse looked like from Earth,

30:40

where it was visible, and where the path

30:42

of totality was, and how

30:44

the eclipse moved along that path.

30:47

Other astronomers started proposing other

30:49

eclipses as possibilities, including

30:52

one on May eighteenth, six oh three

30:54

BCE, and then one on

30:56

May twenty eighth, five eighty five BCE,

30:59

which seemed to be the general consensus

31:01

for the so called right eclipse

31:03

at this point. There are

31:06

still arguments against the five

31:08

eighty five BCE eclipse,

31:10

though One major

31:13

argument is when exactly

31:15

the eclipse would have been total in the area

31:17

where the battle probably took place. Totality

31:21

of a solar eclipse does not last for

31:23

very long. It's you know, very very roughly

31:25

speaking, between two and four minutes. In

31:29

this region, the eclipse would have

31:31

started around five thirty

31:33

PM, so just with the Sun starting

31:35

to be covered. Totality

31:38

would have started about an hour after

31:40

that and lasted for a couple of minutes.

31:43

Then the eclipse would have ended around seven

31:45

twenty PM, with the Sun no longer

31:47

blocked by any part of the moon. But

31:49

then sunset would have started

31:52

another ten or fifteen minutes after

31:54

that. Most translations

31:57

of Herodotus and other accounts described

31:59

the day turning into night not long

32:01

after the battle began, So

32:04

one argument is that it would have been unusual

32:06

for a battle to start so late in the day,

32:08

although Herodotus did also note that

32:11

these two armies fought at least one battle

32:13

at night during this war. The

32:15

other is that two armies in the middle of the battle

32:18

probably would not have even noticed a solar

32:20

eclipse that started that close to sunset,

32:22

when the sky was already darkening. Okay,

32:25

we'll talk about this more on Friday. But personally,

32:28

having been in the path of totality in

32:30

twenty seventeen, and also

32:32

being a person who routinely hikes

32:34

in like the thin, sad light

32:37

of four pm in the winter in

32:39

New England, I disagree with the idea

32:41

that they would not have noticed an eclipse close

32:43

to sunset. We'll talk again more about that on Friday.

32:47

This examination of when

32:49

Thailey's eclipse may have happened is

32:52

It's not the only such effort to try to

32:54

apply astronomy to history.

32:57

There are a lot of references to eclipses

32:59

in old historical documents or two

33:01

astronomical events that might have

33:04

been eclipses. So when Isaac

33:06

Newton and others were trying to figure out

33:09

the date when the eclipse of Thales

33:11

happened, they were also doing similar

33:13

work on other historical eclipses,

33:16

and the focus of this research shifted

33:18

over time. At first, the historical

33:21

record was the starting point. What actual

33:23

eclipse could this document be referring

33:26

to? Astronomers and

33:28

other researchers would look for an eclipse

33:30

that exactly matched the account, But

33:33

over time it became clear that historical accounts

33:36

weren't always totally accurate when it came

33:38

to astronomical phenomena. This

33:40

was especially true in the works of people

33:42

like Herodotus, who were often reading about

33:45

things that happened more than a century

33:47

earlier. Sometimes no specific

33:49

year was mentioned, but sometimes when there was

33:52

a year mentioned, it wasn't a year that had an

33:54

eclipse at all. So the focus

33:56

shifted a little bit from finding the eclipse

33:58

that matched the written record to correcting

34:00

the written record based on the only options

34:03

for when the eclipse could have happened. So

34:06

even though if you read this like one page

34:08

article, that's many of them floating around

34:10

about the battle of the eclipse the day. It'll probably

34:13

make it sound like there was definitively or

34:16

almost definitely an eclipse

34:18

on May twenty eighth of five eighty five BCE,

34:20

and that it definitely did interrupt

34:22

a battle that day. There's

34:24

still just a ton of debate around this. Based

34:27

on what's become our typical schedule, this episode

34:30

should hopefully be out before the

34:32

eclipse starts in Mexico today

34:35

and a couple of hours before it reaches the

34:37

southwestern US. So if you are about

34:39

to try to watch it, good luck and please

34:41

protect your eyes. If you're in the

34:43

Pacific and it's already passed you, I hope,

34:46

we hope that you had clear skies and that you

34:48

were able to get a glimpse. Yeah.

34:51

And if you're not watching an eclipse

34:53

to day, if it's three years from

34:55

now or whatever, you know, if

34:57

you've seen one before, I hope it was great. I

35:01

have some listener mail from

35:03

Kieran and Kieran's

35:06

listener mail was titled Etiquette

35:08

the Outbursts of Everett True, and

35:10

Kieran wrote, Hi, Holly and

35:12

Tracy, I just finished listening to the new episode

35:15

on etiquette, and it immediately reminded me of

35:17

this American comic that ran from nineteen

35:19

oh five to nineteen twenty seven. I

35:21

originally came across it on social media, and

35:23

forgive me that I haven't researched it as thoroughly

35:25

as I could have. I'm sure there are some things

35:28

about it that have not aged well, but I was

35:30

surprised at some of the comics being more

35:32

progressive than I would have expected from

35:34

a white comic creator during this time period.

35:37

Unlike the etiquette books you covered in the episode,

35:40

which emphasize being prem and proper, it

35:42

takes on the rather different tone

35:44

of an older, portly man pummeling

35:47

people into good sense and manners.

35:50

I especially enjoyed the ones where Everett

35:52

true calls out someone racist, another

35:54

of him correcting someone who was abusing a

35:56

dog, as well as one as Everett

35:59

being decided anti quote

36:01

man spreading things

36:04

we are still dealing with today. Obviously, I'm

36:06

not advocating for violence, but bits

36:08

of the comic did make me chuckle, and I hope it

36:10

offers an interesting addition to your etiquette

36:12

research. I'm attaching here the

36:14

original post that caught my eye. Thanks so much,

36:17

for that wonderful podcast and all

36:19

that you do. All the best, Kieran. Kieran

36:22

then sent another email shortly

36:24

thereafter that said, PS, I forgot to add

36:26

this to the original email, but I'm afraid I cannot

36:29

pay the pet tax at the moment,

36:31

as my precious for a baby of fourteen years

36:33

passed away back in twenty twenty one and

36:35

I haven't been ready for new for babies yet.

36:37

But I do have some recently finished

36:39

quilts and quilts and progress. I hope y'all

36:41

are into some textile goodness. Thanks

36:43

again, First,

36:47

these quilt pictures are beautiful. What us

36:49

send it? Textiles? What yuck?

36:52

Thank you so much for sending these quilt pictures.

36:54

They're so lovely beautiful. Yeah.

36:57

So when I got this email, I was like, Everett

36:59

True, all of this is ringing a bell

37:01

to me. We have to have talked about this before.

37:03

When was it? And the answer

37:06

was it was during the episodes where we sort

37:08

of talked about our prior

37:11

episode on the nineteen eighteen flu

37:13

pandemic in our

37:16

new context of having lived through

37:18

a year at that point

37:20

of COVID nineteen pandemic. Because

37:24

other things that Everett True

37:26

beat people into a pulp about

37:28

were refusing to wear a mask

37:30

in places that masks are supposed to be worn

37:33

and coughing without covering their

37:35

mouth. So yes,

37:38

Outburst of Ever it true. I similarly

37:41

have no idea about like this comic

37:43

beyond those kinds of things that we just talked

37:45

about or the creator. But I

37:47

did appreciate getting this email. If

37:50

you would like to send us a note about this or any

37:52

other podcast, we are at History

37:55

podcast atiheartradio dot com.

37:57

Our social media our username

37:59

is typically missed in History. Email

38:02

is the best way to get us. I will say, for

38:04

the most part, I personally

38:06

do not look at any of my social

38:09

media mentions on any platform,

38:12

so if you try to talk to me there, I'm probably not gonna see

38:14

it. You can subscribe to our

38:16

show on the iHeartRadio app

38:18

or anywhere else you'd like to get your podcasts.

38:26

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