23:59:59

Some title is made possible in part by a major Grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities exploring the human endeavor. I Hub-and-spoke audio a Collective. I don't know about but for me, the very first words of Ukrainian had with

0:21

these, this

0:26

is a video posted on YouTube in

0:28

late February. late few days after

0:30

the Russian invasion of Ukraine the

0:32

singer is entre quality

0:35

of lead singer of. A Ukrainian by

0:37

and called, Olympics he's

0:39

wearing a Yankees baseball hat military

0:42

fatigues and automatic rifles

0:45

slung over. his shoulder behind

0:47

him he's the golden coupon of

0:49

keeps st sexier cathedral

0:57

You may seem this video or it's

0:59

many remixes tens of

1:01

millions have.

1:06

Ah. What

1:11

do you make of the popularity

1:13

of this old song to

1:15

sort of become an anthem are you

1:18

losing? Mama Paulina.

1:24

rescuing me there from pronunciation

1:27

abuse is blood, a bill on your American

1:29

born daughter of Ukrainian immigrants,

1:32

professor of linguistic anthropology

1:34

at the University of Washington.

1:36

Horribly the from World War one

1:38

Ukraine did actually have a

1:41

short period of few years of independence

1:44

between father son and

1:46

fire and when the Soviet Union was established

1:48

in my to for the to sort. of honor

1:51

color line the line grew up learning it though

1:53

few other versus but the main lyrics it's

1:55

pretty simple so sexy

2:07

Hurry political says: "Hey,

2:09

in the dylan, the red color

2:11

now, which is of I burn, I'm sort of high bush

2:13

cranberry three, has

2:15

bent over and I, Ukraine,

2:18

has become sad and we all this

2:20

stuff for college. The on the other

2:22

syrup or you call. The

2:24

pop appeal.

2:29

There are now versions of the song from all

2:31

over the world and,

2:34

Slava Dry enough India

2:36

South Africa Brazil You name

2:38

it, see

2:43

them Pink floyd Reform to perform

2:45

a new song that sampled the. archipelago

2:49

not says archipelago big reason the

2:51

some went viral was the circumstances

2:54

of andree who's new He

3:00

was actually putting in the night.

3:03

Fade away from this current

3:05

invasion started and he cut short

3:07

his course to come back

3:09

to see these and to enlist

3:12

in the fish oil defense and they are men.

3:14

"The other businesses that have done that

3:16

they are carriers and creators

3:19

of culture, so they're not just doing

3:21

this for their popularity when they sing

3:23

in Ukrainian, as actually often said the

3:25

call"

3:26

Then. To create Ukrainian Khalsa

3:35

creating, Ukrainian culture in this

3:37

popular with Ukrainian language

3:39

front and center sits near the

3:42

language especially has always been

3:44

this respective even among Ukrainians.

3:47

But now with the country under attack Ukrainian

3:50

culture and language they can. smoke

3:53

most of us used to be a bit vague

3:55

about ukraine before when

3:57

it's people almost the same as russians

4:00

The language to but,

4:02

now little late in the game maybe

4:04

we know better. maybe some

4:06

russians do too

4:10

From where

4:12

to send a linguistic society of America,

4:14

this is subtitle stories about languages

4:17

and the people who speak them I'm Patrick

4:19

Cox in this episode, why

4:21

so many Ukrainians started

4:23

speaking Ukrainian again?

4:28

Slava

4:31

Malamute: It was a school kid, Russia

4:33

and Ukraine would just to have

4:35

fifteen republics in the Soviet Union

4:37

sort of official position.

4:40

Was that a civilian is brotherhood

4:42

of nations? And

4:45

everybody lives peacefully together

4:47

in harmony. At the same time.

4:50

And informal, but the pretty rigid hierarchy.

4:54

This is exist that.

4:56

The very top of which were office

4:59

slob as a native Russian speaker, he

5:01

grew up in Moldova on the border with

5:03

Ukraine, he says Ukrainians weren't

5:05

that far down the hierarchy but

5:08

still well below Russians.

5:10

I remember. People who were.

5:13

Ethnic or Ukrainian and spoke with

5:15

a very distinct Ukrainian

5:17

accent. Definitely

5:19

stereotyped as simple

5:21

minded, not culture or the

5:23

small town hicks. I

5:26

have a kid in my classroom for

5:28

example who spoke with very

5:30

severe Ukrainian accent and,

5:32

he was about of many jokes but during

5:34

this time in the latter days of the soviet union

5:37

ukrainian was recognized by the kremlin

5:39

am kremlin saw this teachers as teachers language

5:42

It was definitely distinct language. However.

5:46

Many preference. The

5:48

you. Ukrainian as us

5:51

more about back ward's simple

5:53

primitive form of rush. One

5:56

are very common stereotype was like

5:58

it's impossible to. The gym. You

6:04

know. this guy Oh wow.

6:15

The mountain somebody said when I was seven

6:17

years old, we went and lived

6:20

in Soviet Ukraine for seven months.

6:23

This is not a billion york again. The

6:25

height of the cold war of my dad was physicist,

6:28

somehow he managed to arrange

6:30

scientific exchanged, and I got

6:32

to go to a Soviet school.

6:36

They are placed in a hotel on the outskirts

6:38

of Case.

6:39

There, when you say you were placed in this

6:41

hotel, this was a Soviet bureaucratic

6:44

place, you that? Exactly.

6:46

Armed there was a big apartment building,

6:49

their hotel and the Institute

6:51

of theoretical physics, and beyond that was

6:53

little forest and fields

6:55

and of village so that was

6:58

place where we could be surveilled

7:00

effectively more easily than it.

7:02

"We were in the height of the city language

7:05

quickly became an issue for the family.

7:07

Both. Ukrainian and English, and we did

7:09

manage to find a Ukrainian language school

7:12

and teeth, but there were only two or three

7:14

in nineteen, seventy six, most of the schools

7:16

were taught. In Boston,

7:18

so he had to take the bus in all across the city,

7:21

my sister nice, too. Then get to the

7:23

school.

7:26

In the summer for we lived, most of the kids

7:28

all spoke with us in Ukrainian there was

7:31

a man. The girl visiting with her

7:33

family and she didn't know Ukrainian she

7:35

only knew Wesson. But even

7:37

then it was. Hundreds

7:40

an issue for my parents as law

7:42

mothers are no radiologists

7:44

my daughter physicists to do science

7:46

in Ukraine and my, mother

7:48

came to do some leftovers and The

7:51

right now I can learn. to do

7:53

it in ukrainian in speak ukrainian i don't speak

7:55

lesson and people excited stranger

7:57

here, Americans and they speak English.

8:01

It was his cognitive dissonance because

8:04

Ukrainian was deemed to be less

8:06

world leave more of A. Although

8:08

language.

8:10

No wonder the authorities wanted to keep an eye

8:13

and ear on this strange

8:15

Ukrainian speaking family.

8:17

My parents would talk about how all

8:19

that yet when they called the phone sometimes the

8:21

audio tapping wasn't that affected they could

8:24

hear people talking for the background

8:26

and they. had

8:28

to be careful me for me as a kid as southern

8:31

i was not terribly aware

8:33

of the politics and my sister

8:35

and sister we played with the kids from

8:37

the apartment building or and so we

8:39

got to be good friends and we exchanged

8:41

letters throughout the years

8:44

Good friends who many years later

8:46

became re acquainted. In

8:48

an independent Ukraine. That's

8:51

coming up after the break.

8:56

If you're a regular listener, you

8:58

already know that we are supposed to help people

9:01

spread the word, buy rating, and reviewing

9:03

subtitled. If you've already done that, thank

9:05

you so much. If not, please consider

9:07

it had to Apple podcast

9:09

or whatever you listen. And give us as

9:12

many stars. As you think we deserve.

9:14

Sign up for our newsletter It

9:16

comes out every two weeks. We say

9:18

hello in different language time.

9:20

We talked about talk couple of language related

9:22

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you sneak preview of what's coming up

9:26

in the park cost. You can sign up at

9:30

pod.com newsletter,

9:32

subtitle pod.com

9:35

newsletter.

9:38

Like

9:40

old. the beginnings of Ukrainian

9:43

up a bit murky. It's clear

9:45

that it shares it's roots with Russians,

9:48

the To May have started to sound different

9:50

after the establishment of federation

9:52

of northern and eastern European peoples

9:54

known as Kievan Rus. Even

9:57

rules as state was found

9:59

dead. That eight hundred nine

10:01

hundred. The Ukraine

10:03

and Russia think of this is sort

10:05

of foundational moment.

10:07

A lot of Ukrainians would say that Russia is

10:09

trying to steal our history by

10:12

claiming kievan Rus as

10:15

their own. Story. The

10:18

claiming that Ukraine assist the dialect,

10:20

a Russian, is part of that.

10:23

Then. Russian state came into being centuries

10:25

after the disintegration of kievan Rus

10:28

when it did a claim the area, the smell Ukraine

10:30

as it's own, and it became part of the Russian.

10:32

Empire, but Ukrainian, was

10:35

widely spoken them so widely

10:37

that in the mid eighteen hundreds, Moscow

10:39

issued decrease, the most notorious

10:42

of which referred to Ukrainian

10:44

as the little Russian language.

10:46

That decree said that there never

10:49

was there is not, and there never

10:51

will be a little less and language,

10:53

so the idea was to just

10:56

wipe it out.

10:57

The decrease banned the use of Ukrainian

11:00

in for public settings people could only

11:02

use it at home but, the prohibition

11:04

wasn't especially well and fullest and

11:07

small body of Ukrainian language literature

11:09

emerged folk tales poetry

11:11

and dictionary. it was around

11:14

them that the language became known as

11:16

ukrainian The

11:18

oppression of it, ebb and flow with

11:20

history, the end of czarist Russia

11:23

short lived independence and then

11:25

Soviet rule even under the Soviets,

11:27

Ukrainian, with sometimes tolerated, sometimes

11:30

not.

11:33

The after seven months stay in Ukraine.

11:35

Not. A bill or nuke return to the United

11:38

States, with her family eventually graduating

11:40

high school and going on to college when

11:42

she discovered Anthropology and Linguistics,

11:45

a grad school she got. The chance to go to

11:47

Ukraine and study the language and

11:49

whether people were using it more, it

11:51

was nineteen ninety one the Soviet

11:53

Union was breaking up and Ukraine

11:56

had declared. Independence new

11:58

law had made ukrainian The official

12:00

language, while offering protection for

12:02

Russian and other languages, not lotta,

12:05

could initially sense much of difference

12:07

from her previous day fifteen years earlier.

12:10

What are some when I came to t was?

12:12

hardly anybody on the street spoke

12:15

Ukrainian it was that may

12:17

in the markets maybe so people from villages

12:20

but,. the people

12:23

who i knew would say it would invite

12:25

me to their houses and they were seeking ukrainian

12:27

at home

12:28

One day Lotta went to see if she could find a hotel

12:30

on the outskirts of the city where she'd

12:32

live with her parents in nineteen, seventy six.

12:36

And I remembered that it was

12:39

U.S. number Sixty three years, the last

12:41

stop and it was still the last

12:43

off the bus number Sixty Three and

12:45

found it, and everything

12:48

was still standing, it looked a lot smaller than

12:50

I remembered it.

12:52

Then. Thing I should mention this in the nineties,

12:54

it was very clear as you were a foreigner

12:57

because of the kind of clothing I had

12:59

the kind of glasses that had. So

13:02

this woman who had seen me walk up

13:04

came up to me and asked me the time and

13:06

then she said he wouldn't happen to be lauda

13:10

that, was C recognized him issues

13:13

two years older than me so she's been nine

13:15

and so she remembered as playing and that

13:17

we had written letters back and forth and.

13:20

somehow recognize me after sixteen

13:22

years we

13:23

renewed our friend said unto her,

13:25

I met other kids that knew.

13:30

These are you have been very generous

13:32

and welcoming and I've

13:35

been to their houses and even

13:37

gotten to go to village weddings

13:39

of relatives and they

13:42

shared a lot of the Ah depths.

13:45

of their lives

13:49

They've also shared their feelings about the Ukrainian

13:52

language as he gained more of a foothold

13:54

in public life, but the switch from

13:56

Russian wasn't instant years

13:59

after independence. Ukrainians. Overthrew

14:01

pro Kremlin prime minister who

14:04

claimed the presidency of the rigged

14:06

elections during this time, known

14:08

as the Orange Revolution, choosing

14:10

to speak Ukrainian and public, was

14:12

still fraught with. Anxiety for some,

14:15

including loud his childhood friend, I

14:17

ring. I know her family.

14:19

It's. You're going in at home and she was born and

14:21

raised in case during the orange

14:24

revolution, I remember her telling me that

14:26

she said, "Well, you know, still see question"

14:28

On the streets, don't antagonize anybody,

14:31

the solution is about human

14:33

rights, don't want it out to rub anybody

14:35

the wrong way. Cole. So

14:37

that was in two thousand and four, that was the

14:39

still this sense of being

14:41

tentative about. Speaking

14:44

Korean and public. Some younger

14:46

people were less tentative. My

14:48

name is my to defense can. I was

14:50

or and. The cheap seats.

14:53

Nadia is thirty four like Irene

14:55

Ukrainian is her first language, but

14:57

Nadia says she's never shied away

15:00

from speaking Ukrainian.

15:01

Yeah, I grew up in a way that I never

15:04

switching to. In

15:06

Ukraine stickers. don't really.

15:09

uncomfortable or frigid kid gets me

15:11

fiction is that they know they cranium fans

15:14

cranium don't see a reason for that about isis

15:16

the discussion like two years ago

15:18

It was really her hold the player a certain

15:21

degree of Olson painting of. It's

15:23

matter of. The lightness to

15:25

switch to the language of your counterpart

15:28

and know the surprised to hear about this is

15:30

something I never do and don't consider who

15:32

matters have languished as to be mothers of

15:34

politeness.

15:35

Nadia. Is telling me this from her temporary

15:38

home in Ireland she's one

15:40

of the millions of Ukrainians who become refugees

15:42

in the past few months and if you notice

15:45

a hint of. An Irish accent, Welp

15:47

Nadia, has history with the place

15:49

she studied in Belfast for time

15:52

most she was that she sought out Irish

15:54

speakers. Now she's one of what must

15:56

be a select group of Ukrainians

15:58

who speak Irish. By the end of this

16:00

episode opposite clip from one of her

16:03

Irish language interviews and I'll also

16:05

recommend another podcast, "Well", she tells

16:07

story. Suffice to say here.

16:10

I had to have no idea why she,

16:12

who's a native speaker of language that

16:14

colonial power, has tried to eradicate

16:17

why she was studying another

16:19

such language. The must think

16:21

about the I said. Yeah, she had.

16:24

In Ukraine, she's an insider to this

16:26

dynamic. When she was studying in Belfast,

16:29

she was an outside.

16:31

The connection between identity

16:33

and language. The way that I've

16:35

experienced as Northern Ireland it's really

16:37

strong will basically and Ukrainian much

16:39

Catholic or protestant basically most religious

16:42

know what the fact that I was interested

16:44

in Irish language really puts me in.

16:47

In a that many people, we aligned me with

16:49

certain cause. I

16:52

was accused of trying to learn

16:54

terrorist's language. When nine so

16:56

to speak? The changes

16:59

much. to tell them what i did a front

17:02

before i hear what do they are It's

17:05

really breaking Mahatma heard this as an outsider,

17:07

I just feel for the language in a I really.

17:10

The best way to my hope that it can, you know,

17:12

pray. The be supported.

17:15

War. Any violence, in fact, it

17:17

amped up linguistic difference: one

17:20

of the Kremlin narratives, is that

17:22

Ukraine cause the war went

17:25

in twenty twelve, it intensified

17:27

it's efforts to promote Ukrainian and.

17:29

According to the Russian government banish

17:32

Russian from public life as narrative

17:34

goes that prompted Russia to

17:36

annex the largely Russian speaking

17:38

Crimea Peninsula and,

17:40

assist russian speaking separatists speaking eastern

17:43

ukraine now the russian army

17:45

has for it's way into more parts

17:47

of ukraine Some of those cities

17:49

almost the first thing Russian authorities

17:52

do. Round up school principals

17:55

and tell them to switch the language

17:57

of instruction from Ukrainian

17:59

to Russian. Then they are wrecked

18:01

Russian street sides. All

18:03

this is having a profound effect. The

18:06

native Russian speakers. Then. Also

18:08

happen to be Ukrainian Patriots

18:11

few years ago, Ukrainian president for lot

18:13

of me as Minsky was comedian, telling

18:15

jokes and making TV shows in

18:17

Russian this is. All as celestial

18:19

event of the Muslim today and public servants

18:22

keep rarely speaks anything but

18:24

Ukrainian.

18:25

The'and and news his promos of a bloody

18:27

not resemble it got to nasa.

18:30

There's politician sitting my Ukrainian,

18:32

but then I think one area

18:34

that really has affected. Then mold Ukrainian

18:37

cooler and harper. The fact that

18:39

it's used in television programming, hip

18:42

hop and rap music,

18:44

a lot of popular culture innovation

18:47

happening. All new coal. I

18:49

know something that specifically did research

18:51

on was curious why. You rock

18:53

singers, for example, just as performing

18:55

Ukrainian when you know the market is

18:57

much bigger in buses.

19:00

On one thing that performers told

19:02

me his or don't know of two reasons

19:04

for some, they said. That

19:07

it's new or that rock

19:10

music and bhushan is this all sounds the same,

19:12

it's been done that you use Ukrainian

19:14

and. Although sars mers,

19:17

were also school

19:25

Utilizing veto school

19:27

a further thirty.

19:29

This is a well no group called Matt has

19:31

access.

19:33

Mostly in Russian and English but,

19:35

they felt like they kind of each the feeling

19:37

that with how far they could gotten on a panel dishonorable

19:40

coolness and started performing. new

19:43

coal kind of bringing kind some

19:45

folks scenes

19:58

Over here, in against us. Coming

20:00

from her own two thousand and nine and

20:02

he had half, a year earlier

20:05

decided to make the switch in his life

20:07

to does he say Editor

20:15

on the that didn't necessarily make that switch

20:17

five, yeah, he had small fun, and for him

20:19

he felt it was important to raise

20:22

him.

20:22

Ukrainian, as one of his first language,

20:25

is to kind of remedy what he felt

20:27

was a lack of his life.

20:33

The Russian speakers who switched to Ukrainian

20:35

when always made to feel welcome they

20:38

stumbled the pronunciation was

20:40

off they threw in Russian words some

20:42

fear that the Russian language again

20:44

might be infecting the purity

20:47

of Ukrainian but,. that intolerance

20:49

has been fading The now with

20:51

the war. That is says. No.

20:55

Right now, especially there is a

20:57

much stronger sense of

21:00

needing to speak Ukrainian to.

21:02

Support Ukraine's sovereignty.

21:06

A poker. On. "The isle of cope with

21:08

people are also much more understanding or not

21:10

I'm not hearing people saying, oh, you

21:13

know that for whatever mayor of a death or

21:15

something", he said. To speak

21:17

Russian because his Ukrainian has Russian

21:19

accent know enough people are saying

21:21

that eyes. The other side, oh, wow

21:24

luck?

21:25

Speaking Ukrainian speaking a language

21:27

that for so long was denigrated

21:30

as, native english speaker english can

21:32

really get my head around just how powerful

21:35

it must be to hear someone

21:37

speaking job once outlawed

21:39

language I just don't

21:41

have that relationship with language, maybe

21:44

my ancestors an island did, maybe

21:46

they were forced into making a linguistic

21:49

choice, speak English, the

21:51

language of them rich and powerful

21:53

occupier, and you go places.

21:56

Stick with Irish. The doors

21:58

will close. Oh

22:04

oh, Ukraine

22:08

in the twenty first century has turned

22:11

that dynamic on its head: Russian,

22:13

the language of the occupiers is losing

22:15

ground and Ukrainian once

22:18

only whispered. Winning.

22:20

New condo Ukrainians,

22:22

are clamoring to speak it and

22:24

sing it and right in his, Cynics

22:28

might say this merely proves

22:30

the old adage language

22:32

is language dialect with. An army and,

22:34

navy and that's true

22:36

as far as it goes, Ukrainian

22:39

is no championed by the government

22:41

but this language doesn't just have

22:44

an army in the movie is. Fueling

22:47

the, oh man it's giving Ukrainians

22:50

man reason to defend their country

22:52

to risk, their lives for listening

22:55

to Lotta and Nadia. dobriansky

22:58

and as musicians nadia can't

23:00

put myself in their shoes i can't only

23:02

imagine the depth of outrage

23:04

people feel when they told their language

23:07

doesn't exist or that is sort of some

23:09

kind of country bumpkins dialect Can

23:12

imagine if I could see of us

23:15

but, what do know, is that

23:17

are starting to write speak your

23:19

language as Ukrainians of? dogs

23:22

that burns right

23:36

Thanks.

23:39

To everyone you heard in this episode, lot

23:41

of be like new slava manner mood

23:43

and Nadia Dopryansky, I

23:45

mentioned that Nadia been doing interviews with

23:48

Irish language media outlets about

23:50

the. Situation in Ukraine and her own

23:52

exodus to Ireland his he isn't one

23:54

of those and.

23:56

Drawing near my gospel, two lanes's s

23:58

a fool and mood of the murder. Cooper, Cooper

24:01

laws are getting crackles

24:03

are good for you.

24:04

If you want to know more about Nadia and

24:06

she has quite a story to tell she dumped

24:08

to indepth interviews on the podcast

24:11

the Irish passport well

24:13

with list our. sound designer

24:15

is tina toby alison shower

24:18

manages our social media newsletter

24:20

thanks also this time to and lena simone

24:23

michael flyer and every one of

24:25

the linguistics society of america subtitle

24:28

is member of the hub and spoke for the

24:30

collective were bunch of her customers who

24:32

are old dedicated telling stories

24:34

about stuff that you're not gonna come across

24:36

most other places There's. Another, the

24:38

hub and spoke up, cause iconography,

24:41

this is puck us about icons, things

24:43

with meaning, analyze meanings that

24:45

we don't fully understand like the

24:47

full English breakfast plymouth

24:50

rock. The Spice Girls iconography

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host Charles gustin tell stories

24:55

about these icons to help us understand

24:58

check out iconography at all

25:00

as hub and spoke shows and have

25:02

smoked audio da. Ponte

25:05

thanks, for listening will be back in back couple

25:07

weeks

25:08

Subtitle is made possible in part by

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a major grant from the National Endowment

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for the Humanities exploring

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the Human endeavor have

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the And so audio.

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