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00:00.00 Dave Hello everybody. My name is Dave Jackson and you're listening to tales from the backlog. This is a video games deep dive review podcast where each week I'm joined by a guest to bring a game out of the backlog, play it and discuss. My guest today is a friend of the show and editor and writer at IGN, previously senior editor and host at Gamespot and you've seen him all around such as on Giant Bomb, Kinda Funny and many other places and he always makes sure to praise the Allmother welcome Michael Higham 00:32.94 Michael A Hekki ALLMO all of y'all out there. You know what I'm saying? Hell yeah. 00:35.83 Dave That's right yes, sphere to square sister today happy to have you here. We're going to talk about a game that was not in the original plans for the podcast for this year. I got it on a whim. I reached out for review code on a whim. Played it and it has been burning a hole in my brain ever since I started playing it so I'm so happy to be talking about it, that game today is 1000xRESIST. It is a narrative adventure developed by Sunset Visitor and published by Fellow Traveler for PC and Switch in 2024 and a real quick shout out to Sunset Visitor and Fellow Traveler for sending me a review code. It is much appreciated if this is your first time listening to the podcast today. First of all, thank you for stopping by here's how spoilers work on the podcast. We're going to talk for a little while we're going to deep dive as much as we can without spoiling anything about the story that the developers didn't say themself in like the steam description and stuff like that. So if you haven't played. Don't worry. We're not going to spoil what happens you can check down in the show notes there is a timestamp for when spoilers begin. So you can go into 1000xRESIST as fresh as you would like to and it is a game that I think benefits from that. So what is 1000xRESIST? We have some elevator pitches at the top of the show here. I say it's a memory hopping high concept sci-fi narrative plus. 02:04.97 Dave Extremely real world human themes as well. Michael what would you say? 02:12.28 Michael My elevator pitch for this game is Nier Automata meets Neon Genesis Evangelion meets the best possible young adult Tumblr account made by an asian american and trust me. 02:27.93 Dave Um, boom. 02:29.94 Michael I am Asian American and I've grew up around all of them and I know how these Tumblr posts go and let me tell you something this is peak Tumblr posting and what I would have mean actually back that up a saying because my era of Tumblr was like a lot of emo kids and scene kids talking about their feelings. 02:33.76 Dave Hell yeah. 02:42.93 Dave Aha. Okay. 02:49.31 Michael Feel like nowadays Tumblr is a little bit different where it's like has a lot of subcultures in it with their own set of memes and stuff. So I think I need to make that distinction. Actually yeah. 02:55.84 Dave Okay, fair enough I know almost nothing about Tumblr and Tumblr culture. I've never been a part of anything there . I've just seen funny stuff that gets shared around but was not part of my social media history there. 03:07.91 Michael Um, yeah, yeah, I'll say for a 2009 to 2012 Tumblr 03:14.26 Dave Okay, right on. Um I played this on pc and steam deck mostly on steam deck runs really well on steam deck I had no problems at all. It was a nice play before bed and then have fucked up dreams type of game. Ah, took me 14 hours to get through a whole playthrough Michael does that sound like ah your experience too. 03:36.99 Michael Yes, um oh my god yeah tell me about 12 hours I'd say I mean there's like no hour count on the game. But yeah I pretty much clock like 12 hours but it is definitely a game that messes with your head and I think it drops a lot on you in terms of. 03:39.44 Dave Yeah. 03:54.33 Michael Stewing on like each chapter I played I was like I'm stewing on this and kind of form my own my own thoughts and the meaning has changed and all that. So yeah, that is a very accurate experience I would say. 03:57.70 Dave Um, yeah. 04:02.46 Dave Yeah, hundred percent yeah so let's rewind a little bit before we get into the game itself. Let's talk about how we came across this game now. The reason I reached out to you to be a guest on the podcast today is I saw you tweet. And I think you said something like if this is one of the most important games that you've ever played and I was like alright I got to ask him so how did you come across this game?" What put it on your radar? 04:28.84 Michael Um I saw this at David devs back in December last year yeah yeah Yeah, so day the devs during like ah game awards a weekend or week. There's a day of the devs event and so I passed by it. And was this the yeah this is data. Okay I'm sorry so I passed by the booth and I know it is really funny. So as I passed by the booth I noticed that the people at the demo station were asian and then for me I'm like oh shit oh shit these are my people I need to talk to them. Um. 04:58.55 Dave Um, okay yeah. 05:07.43 Michael Or oh so at least well at first I saw what was on the screen and I saw that the characters were distinctly asian and I saw that they were doing like some really wild visual things like when you fly through the different nodes in the dream sequences I was looking at that at the demo station and so I pulled up and I'm like oh what's this game about. And then so I was talking to the writer and the creative director about it and they were super chill like they're my age. We're like in our late 20's early 30's um so it ah it comes from this place. Ah that is very familiar to me and that' so we're talking we're talking about like you know the Asian American American Experience they're canadian so 05:45.27 Dave Right? right. 05:46.10 Michael But the experience is very similar, like our parents are immigrants. They came to the west and they settled here and so we have a very like they're from a chinese background from a filipino background but there's so much common ground and so we spent like an hour just like chopping it up about our experiences which was like super fun. Um. 06:00.60 Dave Yeah. 06:04.74 Michael I was like oh cool like I'm I'm definitely going to keep my eye on this game and um, and yeah, and then I saw them again at day of the devs at during GDC here and GDC's in San Francisco I live here so I stopped by day of the devs and I saw them there was like oh like it's good to see all again. It's like. How’s the game coming along like and they were like we're ah, we're announcing a release date soon. I was like oh okay, cool cool I'm keeping an eye out for sure. So that's how the game was definitely on my radar since then so and then when it ah it came out so I didn't get review code I just bought it on day. 1 06:38.37 Dave Yeah. 06:41.45 Michael And so I slowly played. I played through it like a little bit each day. Um, but yeah, that's how I came across this game. 06:48.30 Dave Hell yeah, nice. So I'm like completely the opposite. Um I had never heard of this before it was released um may 9th, 2024 might be. We might look back on that day as like just a wild day in indie gaming history like tons and tons of great games all dropped on that same day. 07:01.00 Michael Um, yeah. 07:06.30 Dave And Animal Well was the game on that day that I was playing and there'll be an episode on that in the future as well. I've got a great guest lined up for that. I'm really excited but 1000xRESIST was kind of just like oh I saw it but I'm busy you know and um. 07:20.44 Michael Yeah, yeah. 07:23.10 Dave Friend of mine friend of the podcast John from the gaming in the wild podcast was like shouting from the rooftops about this game 1000xRESIST and my interests line up with John a lot of the times I also saw Jacob Geller tweet about it and like I kind of have a. Same kind of interest in weird cool stuff that Jacob Geller tends to have an interest in so those 2 kind of put it on my radar and then I was playing a different game for the podcast. We'll keep it a secret for now but I was not having a good time. And I was getting all kinds of fomo about like this game that people say is really cool that I'm doing fucking homework like taking my medicine with this other game over here and so I was like fuck it I'm going to ask and see if I can get a review code for 1000xRESIST and they were like yeah sure here you go so I was like all right? We're pushing everything out. We're playing this and to get into like our quick opening thoughts here basically from like the first 5 to 10 minutes of the game I was so hooked on it and the game did not let go it still hasn't really let go like this game's kind of been dominating my head. For the last like three weeks or so ever since I got that code. Um I think this is like really really good like crazy good how they really tone down like the scope of what they wanted this game to be like from a gameplay perspective and they're like we're focusing on the story. 08:53.65 Dave We're focusing on the presentation. We're focusing on all of these like real-world human themes. We've also got this wild sci-fi stuff going on but it all ties together super well and it never really loses sight of that human side of it which I like. That's what some of the best sci-fi does like he gives you these crazy ideas. But there's also this stuff that we can relate maybe to your own life but certainly to real world events and stuff like that and I think this game does just an outstanding job of that and. Man It's gonna be hard to top for like my game of the year list and stuff for this year I thought this was really really good.. What would you say here at the top? Yeah. 09:31.81 Michael Um. 09:33.78 Michael Um, yeah, oh man. Well I echo a lot of basically pretty much all of what you said, um that like this is one of those games that if you play it all the way through you will not forget it. Um. 09:43.61 Dave Yeah. 09:48.55 Michael And the couple things I want to touch on with that is because when I played this game like this. Like I said at the top, this is a game made by Asian people from immigrant families. 10:02.14 Dave Yeah. 10:05.33 Michael And so much of that is embedded in this story and it's a very personal experience where so you ah unexpectedly' I'm going to get very emotional on this episode. It's crazy, crazy like a dog . I'm going to be crying all over this episode. 10:16.69 Dave That's okay. 10:24.89 Michael It's one of those few times where you really see your life represented in this game. Like I said, this comes from the perspective of Chinese immigrants and like for Filipino immigrants. The experience is so similar just that the traditions are a little different. The language is different. Um, but there's so many similarities so I felt like I was watching like watching my life represented in a game and of course there's a lot of like there's very, there's various nuances to this but what makes that even more powerful is that you know. We always strive to have representation in games and that is no doubt a good thing. You see that manifest in so many interesting and fun ways throughout games. Um, but 1000xRESIST is a game that's not just representation. It uses that as a platform to tell a much larger story and not every game has to do that like that's not everyone's goal. That's not what everyone likes, not everyone. Yeah like I said not everyone needs to do that. But the ones who can do that and who execute on it have something very powerful to say and show. And so um, when you start to get more involved in the deeper like political plot threads or the relationships. Yeah, these exist outside of that representation but because it's attached to it. 11:54.98 Michael There's like a through line that connects all of that together. So it feels like a very natural way to show our experience in a way that's like yes this game has references to Chinese culture and like some characters speak Mandarin. But that is all encased in a much larger story. So it's really cool to see a game that can pull that off where it's not about being asian it's about a much larger picture and along the way that is a core part of it. 12:25.28 Dave Yeah. 12:28.84 Michael So That's why this game's like such a personal experience to me and I don't think I mean obviously like not everyone's going to experience that right? because not everyone is Asian or not everyone ah comes directly from immigrant parents. But I say this in my review is that this is the perfect example of the local being universal because. You don't have to be from an immigrant family or be Asian to see what this game is trying to say you might miss a little bit of the nuances you might not have that strong as strong of a personal connection to it but you can still see the bigger picture and that's what is so smart about this game the way it weaves those intimate moments. 12:50.99 Dave Yeah, yeah. 13:07.21 Michael With its much larger storytelling , it is so hard to pull off and like some of my favorite game stories are not as complex or nuanced as that. That's just a really hard thing to pull off. But they make this game look effortless. I'm just blown away by how sharp it is and I talk a lot about the one-liners when in my review it is like this game has a bunch of 1 one-liners. Whatever and you might think like if you look at a screenshot reading like okay yeah, whatever as I get what that means. 13:35.48 Dave Yeah, yeah. 13:45.64 Michael But in the context of their moments. They are some of the most powerful things I've ever heard characters say like man 14:04.36 Michael Ah, take a swig of this water. Ah yeah, what I was saying is like you see those lines and the way they're delivered and in the context in which they are delivered are some of the most powerful things I've ever heard a character say in a video game. Um, and. 14:21.93 Michael This isn't a very bloated game either, especially the conversations and I mentioned in my review that there's no codex. There's no long exposition. There's nothing like journal entries to read. Everything is told through its cinematography. It's ah like the way that it's art direction. And the characters' conversations and for them to get across so much detail and so much characterization in all that stuff alone is an absolute achievement. I am blown away about how this is their first game and they made it. 14:55.36 Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. 15:00.80 Michael All of that works so well and like yeah, that's that's just like that's my top level thoughts of just like what makes this game stand out. It's like well you're not going to experience a story like this. I Mean there's I'm sure there like there. There are a lot of games that do go for this thing and work really well, but from a personal standpoint This is this is that game that does that. So yeah, that's that's where I'm coming from. 15:24.15 Dave Yeah, yeah, and that's awesome and that was part of I mean I actually invited you on to come talk about this game before I knew that that was like touching you in that personal way and then I read your review that you wrote for Ign. Um, and I was. Really appreciating that game from that perspective and I like before we even like setting up the story and stuff at still top level thoughts here. I really appreciate what this game is doing telling that story because it's not my specific story in the same way that it's. Ah yours I have experience as an immigrant minority when I lived overseas but it was not exactly the same as what's being told in the story and that's what you know I could relate a little bit with what they're talking about in some situations they're talking about. But 16:04.58 Michael Are. 16:17.40 Dave And don't have to relate one hundred percent like with my own life to recognize the value of telling stories like this especially for people like me, straight white men especially if you've only lived in the place where you were born seeing stories like this is valuable to help you. Understand and empathize with the way other people have experienced the world and I think that like whatever your chosen medium whether you like to read or watch movies or play video games or something like that. It's one of the best things that those things can do is help you relate with those stories and so that is something that I like. This game is not telling my story but I so appreciate the fact that it is telling this particular story and that so many people have resonated with it. So it's really really good. Let's put a pin in talking about this. Let's listen to a bit of music from the soundtrack. We will come back and we will set up. 17:13.55 Dave What the story of 1000xRESIST is actually about music all right 1000xRESIST is credited to narrative designers Pinky Lee and Connor Wiley along with the creative director Remy Su and I just want to shout the names out of the stories. Fantastic. So we got to shout out to people who did it um in the backstory here and this is all from the steam description. It might sound like I'm giving away revelations, but is this nothing really in comparison to what you learn? Um, so in the backstory. 17:43.75 Michael This is yeah. 17:49.95 Dave This is on earth and aliens came to earth. They're called occupants in the game. They're not hostile aliens killing everybody but they have transmitted a disease that has caused people to cry all of the moisture out of their body until they die. It's pretty. Pretty sinister. You see some cool like signs in the first chapter that are talking about like you know are you actually depressed or do you have this disease and it's like hush shit like you can't even cry without attracting attention to yourself. Yeah. 18:17.15 Michael And God that's that that is one of my favorite details early in the game. 18:24.99 Dave Yeah it's so good. So we have this disease. There is one person who is immune and survives the disease. It is a teenage girl named Iris and iris not only is she immune she is also turned immortal at some point and so the game actually takes place a thousand years later Iris is still alive and has created a society of her own clones who worship her they call her the all-mother they all will have to live underground because the clones are not immune to the disease only Iris is so they live underground they wear masks at all times. Clones are called sisters and in their society they play out functions to kind of keep the society running with the hopes of one day going over to the place where Iris lives to help her fight on the front lines against the occupants so that one day they can all return to the surface. Um. The sister functions are named after the things that they do the the main ones the leaders will say there is Watcher Knower Healer Principal fixer and bang bang fire think only one of those actually know you should be able to figure out what all 6 of them can do. What their job is but you play as Watcher in this game um in the opening cutscene again. Not this is in the trailer. This is like the first thing you see in the trailer. So. It's not as big a spoiler as it sounds like in the game's opening cutscene your player character is named Watcher. 19:58.94 Dave Approaches the all-mother as she's reciting some kind of incantation Iris asks her what's going on and watches her stabs her in the back and kills her and then that's it and then you travel back in time a little bit wondering. How did we get to this point and I got to say this is. Ah, pretty wild opening even though I knew this was coming like the way that it's all set up with the music with the cinematography. This is it just leaves you asking all the right kinds of questions I think. 20:42.17 Dave You're still there. Okay, all right. It knows no I was ah just I've been talking for a while so I wanted to stop and give you a chance if ah, but if you don't have anything I'll keep going if you do you could just. 20:43.46 Michael Um, yes I am . Are you talking like ah like a segment breaker. 20:51.51 Michael Oh oh sure sure by my bad. Okay yeah I'm like I'm running through the visions of the game as you're explaining or like yeah I remember that I remember that that was crazy. 21:04.13 Dave Ah, yeah, yeah, it's a wild beginning so I like it. It rewinds a little bit you play as Watcher Watchers function in the society is to relive the all-mothers memories through this process called communion. These communions are the way that most of the story in the game is told. You do have a current day timeline plot that's advancing as you go. So you have that storyline but a lot of like the big story moments and big revelations are given through these communions. And so you're learning about Iris as you go because you're watching her memories play out and then you're learning more about the society that they live in this religion that's sprung up around Iris. I thought this is a really interesting way of telling this story. 21:55.58 Dave Memory is a huge point of emphasis in this game. Um, there is a major emphasis placed on preserving memories, discovering memories, maybe erasing memories, and passing them on to inheriting memories. It's a big thing in the game. So um. I Don't know what you think about the way that this was delivered with kind of mostly just learning about the past. 22:20.73 Michael I mean I think that stuff is powerful because it's not just like it's not just that they have these dream sequences. They're kind of like paced out at a pretty regular cadence like once you do the second one you're kind of like okay I know that I'm going to go to this next character commune with them. 22:23.33 Dave Yeah. 22:40.31 Michael Go to his next character commune with them. Um, so it has that basic structure. But what the story is actually saying in those communions are so they're fragmented and they're fragmented on purpose and so I would talk to other people who are still going through the game. They have a lot of questions like I don't really understand what this game is trying to say and I was like okay well yes, it is like the thing things aren't exactly connecting but I am intrigued and that's exactly like how I felt too I'm like I am so like this doesn't totally totally make sense yet. But I I I trust that it will. 23:18.30 Michael Um, so it's one of those kinds of games where the the storytelling isn't necessarily linear and it's yeah, it's not going from 1 event to the next to the next to the next and in these dream sequences when you're in the communions you are actually flipping through different timelines or not different timelines different. 23:20.88 Dave Oh no, yeah. 23:34.95 Dave Yeah, right. 23:36.49 Michael Points in time in those particular moments. So ah, and so it throws out all of these pieces. Ah, and I say that it's an ambitious narrative structure because of you. Kind of create a problem for yourself where now you have to figure out how to bring it all together and if you throw out all these pieces and you can't wrap it up by the end that it all falls apart. Um, so I have mad respect for the way in which they tried to tell this story. Um, so yeah as you're going through communions like yeah, they might be like 1 after the other. But what's actually being shown is kind of wild. 24:13.79 Dave Oh yeah, yeah, completely out of order. It's a game where I was glad I was taking notes for a podcast so that I could easily piece the timeline together. Um, kind of it's gotten some comparisons with 13 sentinels the way that the story is told in that game, another like super nonlinear. 24:18.75 Michael Yeah. 24:32.80 Dave Way of telling a story. Um, this one was a lot less confusing to me than 13 sentinels. I think that like you said they set up a potential problem for themselves here like laying it all out this way. But I thought it wrapped up super neatly and I was like. Only left with a few minor questions at the end. 24:54.97 Michael Yeah, ah I think and the thing too is that this kind of ties back to what I was saying at the top that this story is so dense because. 24:59.87 Dave Yeah. 25:06.81 Michael There are so many reads that you can have on this game that when they wrap it up there. There is a definitive like conclusion right? like there are definitive things that happen in this game of course. But in terms of what you take away from it What you think it's about or like what. 25:18.29 Dave Yeah. 25:26.23 Michael Stood out to you most, it could be 10 different things and they would all be valid when I was writing my review. It was really hard to figure out what I wanted to talk about. I talked about family, I talked about culture, I talked about politics , I talked about interpersonal relationships. I didn't even I didn't really touch on what it says about how to handle a pandemic or just stuff about ah one of the characters named jo who represents like there's there's a there's a moment. 25:46.57 Dave Yeah. 26:01.60 Michael The story that talks about how joo is like being bullied for being I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not going to say but we used to like for for asians who came who were born in their motherland who moved to America or Canada um, they have bullied for their accent for the way they way they dress and. 26:12.37 Dave M. Yeah. 26:20.68 Michael Joo has a moment where she brings that up. Um, and so it's also about that. It's about being an outsider too and I didn't even like to think of that until like I wrote all of my words and so yeah, that's just another thing that. 26:37.60 Michael Like I definitely got out of this game. 26:39.60 Dave Yeah let's just touch on like some of those real world things that the game is talking about and that that diaspora is like 1 of the strongest ones I think that it is bringing up. Um the feeling because the characters here are high school kids. So I mean Iris is immortal at one point but at the beginning in the first flashback you watch. She's in high school. So um, that experience is really well realized I think and so I said that I have a little bit of experience like being. The immigrant right? but I was an adult when I lived in South Korea for a long time so I was an adult. What this game is touching on is that experience of being a teenager in going through this and especially a lot of ah with Jiao in particular like. Wasn't Joel's choice to move to the US or I think it's the US that this is taking place in? It could be Canada. Yeah yeah, but yeah, you know western countries. Yeah um. 27:42.44 Michael Um, ah it's kind of I think it's undefined. Ah, or yeah, yeah. 27:49.50 Dave Not her choice so like going through that when you just like you know you, you don't really have a choice. You're a kid so you're going where your parents go and then there's a storyline with Iris's parents and how they were displaced from Hong Kong also not really by choice. They're escaping a political situation over there. The real. 27:55.28 Michael Um, yeah. 28:08.64 Dave Political situation that you know famously happened in Hong Kong in like the 2010 s up through like 2020 or so. This game touches on that stuff too and how that affects people. Um and I think that like the emphasis on that experience going into this unfamiliar place. There's a. Place. There's a quote early in the game where joo just like asks like are they always so mean in this country and I was like fuck like yeah I get that I get it like not from again, not from my own personal experience. But it's not hard to put yourself in the shoes and just kind of this is how people experience because high school can be fucking brutal. 28:33.26 Michael Um, yeah, yeah. 28:41.82 Michael Then. 28:48.17 Dave So It's really well realized I think in Sunset Visitor I Just want to point this out the group of people that made this game they self-describe as a group of Majority Asian Canadian Diaspora Creators. So This is close to their heart. This is one of those games where. You've got the creator's experience in the story front and center. 29:14.10 Michael Yeah, that's ah like I said when I met them and then when I saw the games like oh I know I think I know what this is or at least I know part of what this is um, it's ah and it's definitely This is a story that only. 29:18.77 Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah. 29:31.28 Michael They can tell that's the important part I mean like any game that is um, that specifically references a specific culture and like the and the writing team is like this is our experience Of course that's going to be the case. Um, so but they really put themselves I could. 29:31.49 Dave Um, yeah. 29:51.80 Michael And like I say that we have this shared experience and it comes through so vividly and so familiar and that's a credit to them and I also mention this in my review is that it's not just that they're using their experience. Ah. And in the storytelling. It's that it's told in a way that you can only really tell when you had enough time and maturity to really reflect on your upbringing because this is not a game like this story. I would probably not fully understand the story if I was like. 30:28.90 Dave Oh yeah. 30:29.94 Michael 20 or if I was 18 or 25 I probably I'd still get it. But I think like so much of it is about when you become an adult and you take the time to understand what your parents went through. You can't really tell your parents' story until you become an adult and get closer to their age. Look back at the stories they told you and then start to contextualize it in your own experience and then so everyone kind of goes through that phase with their parents where you know as a kid like oh like oh I Love my mom dad they're they're going to take care of me. Whatever you become an Angsty teen. 31:05.62 Michael Then becoming a young adult kind of starts to become your own person and then when you get older you're like oh no I Love my parents I can't wait to be with them again and they're gonna treat me like a baby. Um, and so that relationship with parents is especially Asian parents ah is. 31:25.27 Michael Yeah, you go through that arc and you don't really realize that arc until you get to our age. So it's that as well. 31:28.39 Dave Yeah, and just a quick shout out that Iris's parents are a fairly you know prominent main characters in the game and I adore both of them as characters every scene that takes place like in their home is really. 31:38.45 Michael Um, yeah, all. 31:45.89 Dave Really good. 31:48.85 Michael Absolutely, There's ah, there's just a really striking sense of place in that small apartment like I mentioned too that I know what it's like when your parents move into a small apartment like you made it and then like when you go through that apartment many many times. 31:51.67 Dave Yeah. 32:04.41 Michael I start to like look at the details like yo they got they got that that $200 rice cooker that my mom got when I was like I remember that that's like the exact rice cooker and then like the the experiences of them being like when Iris gets older and her dad's like offering her like traditional foods and then she's like I want pizza I want. 32:20.80 Dave Yeah. 32:23.64 Michael This is like like the the distinction between like when your kids start assimilating and that feeling of like oh no, they're pulling away from our culture I need to reel them back in to make sure that they don't forget where they came from and then there's that natural tension between parents and kids and so. 32:42.40 Michael And in that apartment is like you just feel it in just like the way you navigate that the conversations that happen and the fact that like to them this is this This is success like this is where it's at and so yeah, it's just really striking What what? all the stories that are told. In that small apartment. 33:01.64 Dave Yeah, yeah, remember the part there with the pizza when Iris says like her friends don't want to eat quote that stuff talking about her dad's like homemade noodles like Hong Kong -s style noodles. So like that you know again, it's a story that I've heard so many times. 33:11.90 Michael Yeah. 33:18.26 Dave From Asian friends who grew up in the Us ah feels like everyone has that exact same experience there. So it's super cool how this game puts this front and center. This is the experience and this is like. 33:24.65 Michael Yeah. 33:33.40 Dave Part of Iris's background too and I think one of the other things that this game really touches on is the way that trauma is passed on from generation to generation in different forms. Um, and it's not like everybody in this game has a horrible relationship with their parents. 33:53.39 Dave Um, it's more nuanced than that in this game but those little things do get passed on and then there's parts where you realize like oh I'm acting exactly like my parents here and then that gets passed on to this. That's a part of this game. The. Connections again to the real world protests in Hong Kong that's a prominent thing in this game, one of the first games I've played that feels like not having a small reference to but a very large reference to covid um with the sickness that's spreading. And especially the attitude towards the asian students in the school as the sickness is spreading that felt very real to me of the masking and stuff like that and then of course we have a deification of Iris here. So all the things about. You know, worship and organize religion and this game has a really special thing I think where the god is a teenager so like what if your what if society was born in a teenager's image. Basically so many things going on here so many really cool things. 34:58.51 Michael Yes, yeah. 35:04.64 Dave Um, lots of stuff to dig into in that spoiler section. But I've been talking for a while. There are some other themes like you know there that we talked about that you want to dig into just a little bit more. 35:18.60 Michael Man Ah, like I said there are the but there were a bunch of themes that I couldn't touch on on my review and like yes that is one of them was like what it says about organized religions and and kind of like cultish mentality and I think it's ah it's very smart, especially and even just in the opening chapter where. 35:25.90 Dave Um, yeah. 35:35.82 Michael Ah, there's you're at those schools rooftop and then there's like an ah prayer going on and like it it just really it just really weird like I have no idea what's going on here. But there's something happening. 35:47.13 Dave Yeah. 35:50.46 Michael It's it's kind of they they play it for goofs but that kind of like sets the tone for like oh we're we're going in this direction and I think like when you start to understand like the way in which this like that society is created in the future. The future Timeline. Where everyone praises the all-mother and like everything runs through her and in many like not just for organized religion. But in so many other aspects throughout the story. They always it always pokes at what happens when you start to question the systems that you live under. 36:24.74 Michael How does that change people? How do people react to it, who pledges allegiance, who wants to break that system and how does that start to affect the way they interact with each other and how they affect their day-to-day lives. Um, so I mean the organized religion part I think is just one avenue for them to. 36:34.75 Dave Um, yeah. 36:43.97 Michael Harp on that theme and that is another fantastic thing. This game does. 36:45.42 Dave Yeah, yeah, and that's one of the inciting events in the story is that Watcher the character that you play learns something about ah Iris the all-mother that kind of rocks. The foundation cracks the foundation of everything that she thinks is true, everything that she grew up knowing to be true and so I'll leave like story details. We'll cut it right there but that's the inciting event is that not all is as it seems with the all-mother. 37:02.72 Michael Um, yeah. 37:20.80 Dave And with this this entire society but it's not as simple as just saying like oh yeah, the God is evil like it's not that simple either. It's more nuanced than that even which is something I thought was also really really impressive. 37:33.70 Michael Yeah, yeah, and like 1 more thing on that is like everyone reveres gods as like these imperfect or like as these these perfect entities that could do no wrong. Um, and. 37:50.47 Michael The fact that you're going through Iris's life and seeing like you know she's just like another person and so it creates this and as Watchers sees more of this There's like this really stark contrast between who Iris actually was. And how the rest of that society talks about the all-mother like you all don't know that she's just another person and so even then without even having to say it. This game is talking about idolization and. 38:13.48 Dave Ah, yeah. 38:25.30 Michael Just by the nature of the story. It's trying to say it doesn't have to like point out that it's just doing it because of what the story is going through. So yeah I think we live in a I mean we have always lived in a society where religion is huge and like dictates a lot of things in people's lives. 38:30.99 Dave Yeah. 38:44.22 Michael Um, to break that down on such a like on such a scale or such a like on a smaller scale but still be as powerful when you show that and say that in the game is yet another achievement for this game. 38:54.70 Dave Yeah, yeah, it's a man just super impressive. Um I think we should ah we should put a pin in the story soon. Talk about some other stuff. We'll get into that spoiler section and really dig into this stuff but to kind of close out this story section. 39:04.70 Michael Yes. 39:13.60 Dave Want to reiterate that like we have this big sci-fi idea like a society of Clones Aliens came there's a disease.. There's an immortal all-mother we have all that sci-fi and then we have all this very real human element to the themes of this game talking about. You know the experience of the like you said children of immigrants growing up and all parts of that experience as well as lots of those other themes I talked about and the game. Never really lets go of either side of that like both of them are extremely strong the entire way Through. You can tell that like both were equally as important or maybe even like the human side of it was more important and the sci-fi part is a vehicle to get you know those stories told and those points across and I just thought that that was great like I. I was never like I don't care about this side of it I want to get to the sci-fi or I don't care about the sci-fi story I Want more of like this other stuff like I thought both sides were equally strong and equally important for like the vision of what this game's trying to do. 40:25.98 Michael Absolutely. 40:27.42 Dave Yeah, so let's listen to a bit more music. We will come back. Talk about how you know the way it's presented. We'll talk about that soundtrack a little bit talking about visuals and music in 1000xRESIST. First of all, let's talk about the way it looks. Ah, the art direction is accredited to Koda Yanagawa and I think this game has a really thoroughly entertaining and effective visual presentation. It's always switching things up on you giving you different perspectives as a player in gameplay. It's from third person to first person to side scrolling and then from a cinematography perspective always giving you the most interesting possible shot I feel like. 41:17.80 Michael O Yes, that is one of the strongest things about this game and we touched on this earlier but I want to emphasize that the cinematography like the cinematics. Conversations that happen the most important conversations are the camera angles that they use to emphasize each line to show landscapes to show scale to show ethereal dreamscapes. Everything is so intentional and. You feel an intensity or an intimate moment or just yeah, there's so much emotion that is communicated through how these scenes are shot where the camera is what they use color to but what colors because. Ah. 42:04.72 Dave Yeah, dude. Yeah. 42:14.50 Michael Ah, big tool that they use for communicating in the story is color. Each of the sisters have a specific color. Um, and when you go into different environments. They use color to like just really like it's overwashed with this specific color like in the first chapter when going through the school in the aftermath. It's all like. 42:17.70 Dave Yeah, um. 42:33.69 Michael Red and then when you're in when you go into like the day before it has like this really muted purple tone and so they're creating a vibe a mood, an atmosphere based off of the color palette alone and they do this throughout the entire game and so when you combine that with. 42:53.11 Michael How they compose their cutscenes and dialogue sequences. There is so much that is being. There's so much that you feel from just watching these conversations play out so it adds a gravity. It adds weight. Um and it kind of. 42:58.62 Dave Yeah, yeah. 43:11.20 Michael Provides a little bit more meaning towards these lines that the characters are saying. 43:18.37 Dave Yeah I think that um a lot of the interesting kind of cinematography camera angles, set designs and colors and stuff can be attributed to ah like you said earlier this is their first game as a studio. But this is not their first foray into the arts. This studio has a ton of experience in all kinds of other arts like dance and theater music, film, all kinds of stuff and I think that really shines through here in their creativity with the way that they set things up. 43:55.18 Dave Um, and you've got some things that are a lot of video games. Don't really get into um with like you said the use of color the use of camera angles. The the use of like okay we're going to have a big fucking wide open space here to emphasize something. Um. You have jump cuts between scenes that kind of disorient you as a player and kind of leave you wondering. Okay, where am I Now what time is it? What year is it stuff like that? I think a lot of that can be attributed to their background which is really cool and it like you said lends a lot of impact. To the scenes and conversations that you're in I have so many screenshots of this game and just being like look at what they created here look at this scene and then it's never used Again. It's just what they Wanted. They were like this is really fucking cool and it's gone forever after this conversation's over. 44:39.92 Michael Um, yep. 44:45.55 Michael Um, yeah, yep, that is 1000% what they do with this and yeah and like like their real world influences very much not just like their lived experiences. But yeah, some of the like other stuff that they work on. 44:49.87 Dave Yeah. 45:02.82 Michael Um, so I know like I know pinky is very active in the activist space that shines through as well like that is I'm sure that is stuff that only she can say in these particular sequences. It kind of lends her. A perspective and strength to tell that part of the story. 45:25.44 Dave There's 1 other gameplay mechanic. We kind of talked about how there's almost no gameplay in here. It's just walking around talking to people mostly in that third person perspective. There's 1 thing that you do from time to time and it's kind of like a hookshot. Like a grappling hook like jump or teleport from these nodes around. But I'm mentioning it in the kind of art and art direction section of the show because I almost feel like those sections are there to show off. 45:57.30 Dave Kind of more surreal environments like there's one in the first chapter where you're surrounded by these giant school desks and chairs floating around in the air and just gives them another creative perspective to put you in as a player as you're kind of navigating these spaces. They look really cool. The gameplay side of it's very very simple and they're not that many of these sections but every time one pops up. It was like oh things are weird. Weird now. So it was always kind of cool to see those. 46:27.67 Michael Um, yeah, yeah, absolutely and I Love how there's with that it also is kind of like ties into how they frame things. But it also communicates a sense of momentum especially with the sequences where you're flying through the different nodes. It feels like this game is moving in a specific direction even though you're not really, there's no combat. There's no real puzzles. There's no real.. There's no fail states whatever but it feels like you are. 47:02.31 Michael Moving through this game and that also ties into how they change perspective at specific moments to again, communicate something very specific. So. It's also the edit. It feels like oh my God I'm flying through space that. So unfamiliar and that like Evokes a very specific feeling which is really cool to see. 47:20.29 Dave Yeah, like you said, that perspective gives you the feeling of like the scene that you're in so you contrast that with that like that momentum. Maybe you're chasing after somebody during those hook shot type sequences. Parts that take place in Iris's apartment that are in first person in this tiny apartment and you get that claustrophobic feeling that ah you know a teenager might feel in an apartment like that surrounding you know Iris is you know. 47:52.40 Dave Having a hard time with her parents at times especially with her mom and so that kind of feeling that you get like being trapped in here. The perspective gives you that feeling as well. So it's all intentional choices that they made with how this is all presented. 48:07.46 Michael Yes, absolutely. 48:12.19 Dave Quick note on the voice acting here and the voice acting I think is quite Good. Um feels very reserved and it kind of left me I don't know kind of lulls you into a kind of trance to just take in and absorb this. Ah, the story. It's not. What I would say is like a super outgoing and charismatic like voice performance from really anybody here. Everyone's real low key with their voices and not saying that as a criticism to anybody. It's just the tone that this all gives off what I thought it was interesting because there's. A wild shit that happens in here but people stay relatively calm most of the time but I thought it was kind of cool the way that they you know and it's another intentional choice to kind of give you a feeling. 48:51.46 Michael Yeah. 48:58.40 Michael Yes I talk about voice acting in my review. I dedicate a whole paragraph to voice acting because it is another one of those absolutely striking things where I say that it doesn't feel like it. 49:04.84 Dave Um, again. 49:14.27 Michael Ah, professional voice actors acting out a specific character or role. But rather people that I know in my life are talking to me. Um, and like that can be interpreted as like as oh these aren't professional voice actors or they're not. They're just saying their lines but no I think what. You get ah throughout the game is a very natural or it feels organic that or the field these feel like organic conversations but not just that you mentioned that it's setting a specific mood is because there is like ah there is a trancelike quality to some of those. Ah. 49:53.78 Michael Dialogue Log sequence of sequences where they're saying things that don't really make sense but doing it in a specific tone to where it feels like they're trying to hypnotize me or something. It's just it. It creates this otherworldly feeling that ah in a very unique way. 50:00.83 Dave Um, yeah. 50:13.15 Michael So it's just again, chalk that up as another one of those things that this game does that you just don't see anywhere else. 50:18.79 Dave Yep, hats off for sure. Also contributing to the tone is the music in 1000xRESIST credited to Line Katcho and Drew Redmond. I hope I'm pronouncing names correctly throughout the podcast. But um. 50:35.90 Dave Music I would describe as moody first and foremost a lot like moody piano happening in the background. Um, but it's not all you know, sad piano type stuff going on. There's a lot of variety in there depending on what's going on. We've we've talked several times about that first communion that you do where you're in the school and the soundtrack in that I was like this is so unnerving and weird and you have like this pulsing tone in the background with the it's almost like ah like a horror game soundtrack during that section. Um, but then it switches up when you go to the orchard and you've got like this new job is sounding I've never said that guy's name out loud before I hope I'm saying it fucking. Love that guy. Okay, fair enough and the orchard has a soundtrack that reminded me of his music and. 51:20.34 Michael But you could ask 10 different people and they will all say it differently. 51:31.32 Dave So you have all these different tones going on. But I think the one word I would use to describe the music is Moody and also fantastic. 51:39.59 Michael Yes, um when I tried I tried replaying this game and like there is like a low key piano song or a song that is mostly from piano. Um, and. 51:53.59 Michael It plays at different points and it also plays at the beginning of the game but when you of course when you're first starting the game and playing it. This is your first time hearing it. But then when I heard it that second time it hit me and I was like oh my god like I didn't realize that you know this is like a recurring theme. 51:58.30 Dave So yeah. 52:11.56 Michael In it and there's ah, there's so many there's so many standout tracks. But it's never it's not like an Rpg soundtrack where it is at the forefront of the experience. It is definitely in the background that is kind of like a setting. It's its tone setter but it never likes you don't. 52:19.30 Dave Right. 52:31.11 Michael Necessarily notice it outright unless you stop to hear it and when you do you're like oh dang I didn't I didn't know it's got some low- key jams. There's one song that is uploaded on Youtube through the sunset visitor Youtube account called urgency. I can't remember exactly when it was played in the game. 52:42.93 Dave Yeah. 52:50.31 Michael But I listen to it all the time because it is one of the best songs in the entire soundtrack. It is this really dark. Ah ah like synth synth wave soundtrack or song and it is it has like this this. This bass Drum that just keeps hitting that feels like it's building momentum building momentum and this very low key harmony and melody that like that kind of like builds up and interacts with each other throughout that song. It's definitely one of my favorite tracks and I think if you want to get an idea of what this soundtrack goes for that is. 53:28.16 Dave Yeah I'll make sure to throw that in the episode here. Definitely buy the soundtrack and make sure to show off some of that music in the podcast here because it's really good. This game sets up a real thick vibe I would say and music. 53:28.44 Michael I Definitely highly recommend checking out that song. 53:45.28 Dave The way the shots are composed, the art direction that all plays a big part in the vibe of it and then you know once you're in it once that vibe grabs hold of you and the story is going to propel you forward. It's like I said 15 hours of dialogue. It never dragged like this game had insane momentum the entire time so you know once you're in it I think the music the way everything shot and then again the story. It's just going to propel you through it. So um, let's ah, let's get into some wrap-up thoughts here before we get into those spoilers. So. When we wrap up this non-spoiler section. We always ask the question what type of person. Would you recommend playing this game to who do you think this game would appeal to? 54:32.57 Michael I would say because like yeah, don't I don't think it's going to hit for everyone I would say I I don't want to say an age bracket I think anyone can relate to this regardless. But ah, it's definitely for I Think you get the most out of it. 54:50.32 Michael If you're if you're really into political thrillers I think that is an important aspect to like grab you because I'm thinking about how in the first couple hours what is going to grab you about it. Um, because it is. Yeah, you have to trust that it's going to pay off at some point. I know people play certain games and be like um, it's not really ahead. I don't get it. I'm going to move on. That's perfect. Fine. Um, but for those who are going to get it. Get it in like the first couple chapters I think if you watch a lot of anime. Ah. 55:25.24 Michael A lot of anime that is well yeah I think ah I think people who are into like darker thriller anime will definitely hit here. Um, and I like I said I compare it to evangelion if you watch Evangelion this is. Going to be up your alley because it touches on a lot of those darker mental themes and like I mentioned also narrative these are influences that the creators themselves have referenced. So yeah, if you're if you're into a lot of like japanese games. 55:50.82 Dave Right. 56:01.65 Michael Like this is not a japanese game of course but it draws a lot from that style of storytelling. Um, and I think that's something that you get early on in this game and if you're if you love a story like this is a completely 100% narrative-based game. So if you're into those smaller stories. Ah. 56:15.40 Dave Oh yeah. 56:21.18 Michael Throughout games and I think if you're into visual novels if you're into walking sims like like Stanley parable maybe or if you're yeah it draws a lot from that from those games as well. If you're looking for something action packed if you play call to duty every year and Madden like this this ain't for you. But yeah, those who just love deep stories are going to get the most out of this. 56:42.34 Dave Yeah I think that's it I think it's just anyone who is open to a deep story with a bunch of real-w world very personal connections and you have to be down for a game that has no action really whatsoever. There's one part in the game that I would describe as action. Ah, like 1 like a three minute section. Otherwise it is kind of like an interactive walking ship. You are walking around talking to people or watching cutscenes. That's basically what this game is and it fucking rocks at what it does. Ah but you have to be up for that. You. 57:21.28 Dave You can't go into this game expecting it to be something else. So if you're down for that. It's yeah one of the easiest recommendations I can make again and again to reiterate. We've talked and Michael you've talked about a lot of the personal experiences and personal connections that you made with this game. Um. You don't have to have that for this game to blow you away like the people in the Discord server who've been talking about it over the past couple weeks with me, you know I know about a lot of their backgrounds. It's not their story that this game is telling but we're all just blown away by it. So I think that being open to seeing somebody else's story. Number 1 is super valuable but number 2 that's what this game is doing too. So I think that that appeal is there for a lot of people as well, especially like people who listen to this podcast every week. I. I hope that that's the kind of audience that I'm attracting and I think that this game is going to be really valuable for people like for people like you and then if you do have that more personal connection to be made with any of those things we've talked about then I think this is an interesting one to check out. So. 58:16.81 Michael Yeah, no. 58:31.11 Dave Ah, easy recommendations for the both of us for a certain type of person. So before we get into spoilers. We always do a little bit of housekeeping so first and foremost Michael I want to give you the chance to talk about the stuff that you do out there and like we mentioned before you wrote the review on Ign. Ah, for this game so tell everybody where they can find you the stuff that you make anything like that. 58:57.40 Michael Yeah, you can find me and all my bullshit at @michaelphigham on Twitter and at highammichael on Instagram and I am currently working for IGN. I'm a tech reviews editor. So I review a lot of hardware. A lot of PC hardware, a lot of console hardware. Ah, mice keyboards controllers headsets all that good stuff. But also I take the time to find other avenues to talk about games. So yeah, check out the review. It's on the site if you want a more in-depth look at it. But ah yeah. 59:20.48 Dave Yeah, yeah. 59:30.59 Dave Awesome! Yeah, I also enjoyed your review of persona three. I have not yet reloaded. I have not had a chance to play that it's tough to fit a hundred hour game into the podcast schedule but 1 of these days but I appreciate the work that you do so I'll recommend everyone. 59:30.60 Michael That's ah, that's where you can find me and that's what I'm doing. 59:37.43 Michael Reload. Yeah. 59:43.15 Michael Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 59:47.79 Dave Check it out. I will put a link down in the show notes where people can easily find you and the stuff that you write because it's good stuff. So yeah, so ah for this podcast the same ways to support as every episode. So first and foremost this is a game that I think can promote some really great discussion. So I will plug in. 59:53.80 Michael All. Thanks. 01:00:06.87 Dave Joining the Discord server for the podcast. We had a dedicated channel for 1000xRESIST over the past couple weeks still going right now you know people are not going to hear this until like a month later but there is a lot of discussion to be had. So if you're not a member. Ah, feel free to join. There's a invite link down in the show notes. Come on in and talk about what you thought about this game because there's a lot going on. Otherwise you can leave a rating and review on the place where you listen to podcasts. It's super helpful. Apple Podcasts and Spotify and podcast addict are the main places to do that. Also I have another podcast called a top three podcast. We do top 3 lists on that show if we had a top 3 video game stories that blew my mind. This will probably be on there if we have a record of that anytime soon. 01:00:55.94 Michael Ooh. 01:00:57.86 Dave And last but not least if you want to support this show monetarily you can do that at patreon.com/real Dave Jackson that is the place now we're going to take a break and when we come back. It's full spoiler time for 1000xRESIST. 01:02:10.94 Dave All right? We're back in. It's full spoiler time for 1000xRESIST and nonlinear storytelling in this game and it's going to be a nonlinear spoiler section as well. So I mean it we're going to spoil something huge right away. So if you haven't played if you don't want to be spoiled, please leave, go play the game and come back. 01:02:30.45 Dave So a question for you Michael 1 kind of question that I had at the end. So the things that you see as you're playing as Watcher are a communion with Watcher with Blue later. 01:02:45.77 Michael Yo Yo that is like that is one of the coolest things This game does man I think it is and I know this is in the notes. This is your first bullet point because I only remember or I only know this. 01:02:57.59 Dave Yeah. 01:03:03.87 Dave Me too. Yeah I replayed the first chapter and I was like what the fuck it was there. It was right there? yeah. 01:03:05.10 Michael Because I replayed the game Yes, like yeah it was right there the whole time. But it's so subtle that by the time you find it, but by the time that you control Blue like you very much. You don't remember that at all because of it. 01:03:22.41 Dave You've gone through so much at that point. Yeah. 01:03:24.50 Michael It's so not yeah so to get real quick. The thing is, throughout the first 6 chapters you play as a Watcher and then something happens to her and then you wake up playing as another shell with no name. That lives in the old city which is an underground part of the orchard so that is modeled after I think it's modeled after like a place in Hong Kong because it has like all the neon lit signs and all the all the character like the language is all over the place. The streets look like it. So. It's kind of like this. 01:03:47.71 Dave Yeah, it looks like it. Yeah. 01:04:00.60 Michael Under society like the whole station and you wake up as another shell that looks just like Watcher but does not have a name and their suit is gray because they don't have. They're one of those. 01:04:11.10 Dave Yeah, they don't have a color yet. 01:04:15.99 Michael Yeah, they're not colored. They don't. They're not assigned anything yet. They're not even under one One of the understudies for one of the other sisters yet and so that's when the stronger political theme starts to kick into place but it switches to this other character and then. 01:04:19.15 Dave Right. 01:04:33.56 Michael But in that first chapter or like in the later chapters once and they eventually they get the name Blue and then so with Blue at a certain point you go back to find Watcher and commune again to get more out of her. But the thing is when you. Once you know that, then you go back to the first chapter. The first thing you're doing is controlling a version of Watcher who eventually approaches another version of Watcher with a band. Yeah with the bandages around her eyes because at that point in the story. She loses her eyes. 01:05:05.40 Dave Um, yeah. 01:05:12.80 Michael And then it kind of phases out and for like a second that body that is talking to the Watcher with the eyes gouged out for a second. It turns into Blue with the gray suit and then so that is kind of that's implying that. The entire time you're playing as Watcher is actually a communion with Blue and Watcher so that is oh I love that kind of shit man. That's a real like near Yoko Taro type thing right? there. 01:05:32.43 Dave Right. 01:05:40.42 Dave Yeah, it's super cool like in so the first cut scene where Watcher kills Iris Blue is there but like the the beginning of the game is so disorienting like I feel like I retained almost nothing except for. 01:05:49.96 Michael Oh yeah, um. 01:05:59.50 Dave Watchers stabbing Iris that's all I remembered and then you go back and you start chapter 1 again, you're like oh shit Blues there and then there's a scene where Blue talks to Iris with no eyes or not Iris Watcher with no eyes and then um, yeah, it's just like you're like putting these pieces together like oh shit. 01:06:18.84 Dave So I'm not viewing and this is a question I have for you too like this game deals heavily with memories and people operating on incomplete or biased information. So. 01:06:36.71 Dave You're not viewing quote the real story you're viewing Blues mirror sort of Watchers memories of what happened and you're viewing Watchers memories of a communion going into Iris's memories and then there's a thing later on where like. 01:06:43.80 Michael Watchers. Yeah yep. 01:06:50.76 Michael Yeah. 01:06:55.21 Dave Principal is shown to be able to fuck with the communions a little bit so that calls into question everything that you see and so like to me you could ask the question like okay well is any of this real is any of that. The real story like that's a little bit less interesting to me because. 01:07:13.80 Michael Yeah, yeah, it's just a dream. 01:07:14.94 Dave You could. You could just basically negate anything by saying like oh well, it's biased or it's all somebody's dreams or someone you know, incorrect memories or something like that. But what is interesting to me is how this is incomplete information that people are acting on. 01:07:23.71 Michael Yeah. 01:07:33.10 Dave And the people do big things in this game based on what they see in these communions so that that also ties in with like near Automata right? like people operating making huge life and death decisions killing people on bad information. Basically and that's super cool to me like people are just doing the best they can with what they know, but there's a lot of people who do stuff in this game and they're just they got bad info like they did the wrong thing. 01:08:04.43 Michael Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Ah, it's It's something that characters ah say throughout the story when you're ah when you're communing with the sisters is that hey. You're not necessarily seeing the allMothers Memories. You're seeing what she wants to show you and that is that's like so it's oh it's another one of those like it's such a simple thing to say but in the context of this game. It is so. 01:08:24.00 Dave Yes. 01:08:38.80 Michael Powerful. 01:08:38.47 Dave It's the beginning like the first half of the game. I would say they paint Iris as the villain of the story and that line you just brought up is such a key line for like. Building up her villain and then like giving you like once you start to see incriminating stuff about Iris you'd be like well wait. Why would Iris show me this if she's dictating what you can see in the communions. Why would she let me see her communing with the occupants and stuff like all these? 01:09:10.47 Michael Yeah. 01:09:13.90 Dave Ah, bad things that she did. Why would she want you to see this? She wants someone to come kill her and put her out of her misery is that what she wants. Um it brings up so many questions and I love how this game builds up this arc. 01:09:22.70 Michael Ah, yeah. 01:09:32.25 Dave With Iris like you start out learning about how shitty she was as a teenager and how she's a complete asshole to jow and how she was you know, just generally a moody teenager with her parents and then she starts doing some actual like real fucked up stuff. And you get to see all of that stuff too and then they chip away at that villain that they've built up and then by the end of the story I felt like Iris was a really sympathetic figure. Um, just like a lot of those decisions that she made that are like. 01:10:03.27 Michael Yeah. 01:10:09.14 Dave Big evil acts are decisions that she made when she was a teenager. She's like 17 or something like that and now suddenly she has all this power like come on. 01:10:15.19 Michael Um, yeah, yeah, that all that that is that is such a. That's a really good thing to point out because I was kind of shocked when you go through the dream sequences where. Like the soldiers are like asking her hey what do you want us to do? What do you want us to do because they're essentially like she is in command of this whole thing because she is the one um and she makes really bad decisions off of like gut instincts and just like. 01:10:49.80 Michael Very immature person because that's who you are when you're 17 and that dictates the fate of the world and it's like that's just like a crazy thing that's really portrayed really well in this game. 01:10:49.59 Dave Yeah. 01:10:57.25 Dave Yeah, like that early thing where so they're building her up as this evil God Basically and I was like oh shit. So this opens up this like what if what if your God is a teenager and. 01:11:13.29 Michael Um, yeah. 01:11:14.41 Dave Makes all of the rash and emotional decisions that a teenager makes but it's life or death like you know anyone who displeases her gets incinerated and then you learn about the story of the youngest and the youngest's fate and all of these things and I got the. Feeling like okay Iris doesn't think things through the way that she should because she's a teenager and even though she's immortal like I kind of got the sense that at least at the beginning of this like she's still emotionally a teenager right? and then at the end of the story when you see like. 01:11:49.17 Michael Yeah. 01:11:53.64 Dave What's going on with her at the end. She just seems tired I think. 01:11:58.60 Michael Yes, yeah, yeah, that is That's I mean yeah, that's ah, that's communicated a lot throughout the story especially in the ending when I don't know if we want to get into this now but the staircase yeah the staircase sequence. 01:12:10.46 Dave It's fine. Yeah yeah, fuck. 01:12:13.87 Michael Ah, with Iris and her mom where she's it's like this vision of her talking to her mom. She's sitting on the staircase then asking her mom how did you do all this like I'm so I'm so I'm so tired I'm so done I don't want to do anything. How did you like to pick up your life? 01:12:32.85 Michael Move to a different country and raise a child like Iris reaching a breaking point where she doesn't know how to handle all of this and that. Yeah, it's a powerful moment that also touches on the other themes of generational trauma and just like parent parental relationships among immigrant families. So um I don't know if we got to get yeah you get into that now. But yeah, that is ah like you when you have these visions of her parents. 01:12:50.45 Dave Yeah. Yeah. 01:13:05.18 Michael In that apartment and when you dig into with their life in Hong Kong and then you start to see Iris it's like she's going through a similar thing but just in a variation and the end result is they're just so tired worked up and don't know what to do even though they've like tried their best or. You know it's it. It touches everybody. 01:13:27.33 Dave Yeah, that stuff with her parents is great. So like her parents backstory real quick they were part of the umbrella protests in Hong Kong they met during the protests. The really cute story about how they met. I think her dad tricked her mom into putting her phone number on like an emergency emergency contact card or something like that and that's how they met and then they started dating and stuff. Um, Iris’s maternal grandmother. 01:13:51.63 Michael Yeah, yeah. 01:14:05.27 Dave Is on the other side of that political conflict like she's like a Ccp supporter in that whole conflict in Hong Kong and that causes a bunch of issues with Iris's parents and then when they leave they move to Canada so they're going through it too like this is not like they were. 01:14:11.76 Michael Yeah. 01:14:22.55 Dave You know, planning to do this it very much felt to me like they're escaping a harsh political situation and so they're just going to make the best of the place that they land and they're never they never seem like completely comfortable with everything going on because you know how could they be. Um, and then with that generational trauma aspect some of that stuff gets passed down to Iris and then Iris passes that down to the clones and then you know it just keeps going down and down and down. But it's like I said in the non spoiler part. It's more nuanced than just like. 01:15:01.53 Dave You know someone's parent was an abuser and then like this person grows up and they're also an abuser like there's it's not like that. Um and then the more you learn about Iris and stuff the more you learn kind of I actually want to get your thoughts here. Um I got a feeling. 01:15:08.14 Michael Yeah. 01:15:21.31 Dave I promise this is connected to that generational trauma line but I got a feeling toward the very end of the game. Iris might not even know about this whole religion built up around her in this society. She seems so focused on keeping. 01:15:22.88 Michael Yeah. 01:15:32.83 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:15:39.33 Dave But I actually take that back. She probably knows that there are the clones but she seems so focused and busy with keeping the occupants at Bay Basically like she's bearing the full brunt of their needs will say that like. 01:15:56.64 Dave I don't think she knows anything about that society and so like that whole thing about how you perform your function. You can go to the front lines and like to join the all-mother. I got the feeling that Iris maybe barely knew about that but she was not like a full participant in this whole thing. 01:16:13.45 Michael Yeah, well because you see the memories of like the origins of that society. You see the first like the first bb yeah, if you see the first Healer. The first Knower, the first versions of each sister and Iris was very hands on and. 01:16:14.67 Dave What did you think about that? 01:16:32.98 Michael You see a lot of and I think a lot of Iris's character comes through in those moments when you see the origins of the sisters. Um and like like you'd mention the like the generational trauma aspect and it being passed down to the clones that is all told in that origin story and it is it is. It's pretty some pretty fucked up shit there. It's a really fucked up shit. Ah, and so but by and large there comes a point when Iris is like not involved at all at the Orchard. No one caesar unless you. 01:17:01.34 Dave Yeah. 01:17:07.26 Michael Unless you get called up and you take the train and then it's like hey you made it you got called um, it reminds you I don't know well in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, I don’t know if folks have played it. Okay, so yeah, like when you reach your ten year Mark you get sent off. That's kind of what this is where it's like hey you reached. 01:17:15.40 Dave I played it. yeah. Yeah. 01:17:26.37 Michael The end of your service now. It's time for you to. It's not exactly the same because in 0 blade you die, whatever but getting called up to be like hey now you are going to serve your real purpose. Um, but I don't think Iris is just not hands at all like people revere the all mother. They've never seen her though. 01:17:42.15 Dave Um, yeah. 01:17:45.18 Michael So their only image is that statue in the orchard and everything else is run by Principal. So this entire society is dictated by Principal and like you, eventually you see that that becomes very clear. So yeah. 01:17:48.43 Dave Yeah. 01:17:58.80 Dave Yeah, so I kind of got the feeling that like Iris knows that there are the sisters there and she initially distanced herself because the sisters were so needy that she could have no time to herself and so like. 01:18:13.91 Michael Um, yeah, yeah I remember this? yeah. 01:18:18.62 Dave I'm not I'm not a parent. I don't have kids but it seems very real, especially if you have 6 kids you would never have time to yourself I feel like and so Iris has the capability and I guess like still that that rash. 01:18:24.23 Michael Um, yeah, yep. 01:18:35.80 Dave Teenage mindset of just like okay well I'm leaving see ya so she leaves and then I think that she's aware of the society going on there but like you said when the sisters are chosen and they get sent out to go quote fight with Iris. 01:18:37.30 Michael Um, yeah. 01:18:53.42 Dave I don't I'm not even sure that they actually meet her or if they go there and Iris is like who are you and then like goes back to this communion with the occupants and that's the sisters never coming back because um, it's revealed later that the Principal's whole plan is. 01:18:55.20 Michael Um, yeah. 01:19:12.77 Dave Ah, Principal is trying to impress Iris by sending the best of the best and anyone who can't get Iris's attention is obviously not worthy so they get fried basically and then um, you know we try again. So I got the feeling that this was. 01:19:25.20 Michael Um, yeah. 01:19:31.98 Dave Like 95% Principal and then Iris is just kind of like tangentially aware. There's stuff happening with the others. Do you get that too? Okay. 01:19:38.68 Michael yeah yes yeah yes absolutely ah yeah yeah dude like ah because like I guess I did it gets so to back back it up a little bit. Principal was the first Watcher. So yeah, I will quote a. 01:19:49.42 Dave Yeah, she's the youngest. Yeah, the one who committed the original sin. 01:19:56.66 Michael Yes, ah, she's often referred to as the youngest or the first Watcher. Um, who is the Principal who is the one who has most of the power in that society? Um, and so when you look back at how Iris or the all-mother was treated. Principal or at the time the youngest was in a very abusive relationship and it was like you said the youngest was the needy one. There's a specific scene where Iris is in her room like this is what she lived in the Orchard. She's in her room. 01:20:18.22 Dave Yeah. 01:20:33.94 Michael Like in the corner just like trying to catch your breath and you look out of the window and its youngest knocking on the window like hey hey hey pay attention to me and then Iris is just like yo what the fuck leave me alone. Um, and then yeah, it's it's that. 01:20:37.25 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:20:51.79 Michael It's that mentality that who and she eventually becomes Principal that she never breaks out of. 01:20:57.43 Dave Yeah, that that that need for approval from Iris um, so her original sin for those, you're just listening. This has been real ah real. 01:21:00.92 Michael Um, yeah. 01:21:12.38 Dave Zigzag of a spoiler section so far, but it's fine. But for those listening who didn't play the game, the original sin that the youngest created is to get approval from Iris. The youngest thought that Iris was lonely so they decided to make a clone. To be Iris's friend and so she makes a clone of Jiao who is Iris is um, you know reluctant friend like Iris reluctantly is Jiao's friend in the real world events the backstory. Um. 01:21:49.30 Dave But the clone is like real fucked up. It's super gross. Um, yeah, exactly yeah yeah, and Iris lashes out, cuts the clone's throat and then basically banishes the youngest basically says like I never want to see you again. 01:21:53.54 Michael Yeah, it's like ah like a 2 face. Yeah. 01:22:07.44 Dave Um, and then you think that the youngest died but you learn later on that. It's Principal and she's doing this whole society sending. The best of the best all to get Iris's approval so like you build up this villain and Iris and then you chip it down with what you learn about. Who she actually is and how she feels and the really unfortunate circumstances surrounding like the decisions that she made even if they're bad decisions and then you build up Principal Principals in charge Principals doing all this stuff. And then you learn Principals motivations you're like well that fuck that's heartbreaking too like everyone's going through it in this in this story. 01:22:46.10 Michael Yeah, yeah, the wild shit is because and when you talk about what we talked about who are you really seeing this through and the Principal can manipulate what people see in the communion is that. 01:22:58.00 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:23:05.72 Michael Case to what extent and then so when the game opens up with Watcher killing Iris or the all-mother and then you get to that you you get to that point mid-story and when it comes back around and that's when Principal walks in and says all right cool you you did exactly what I needed you to do now. Now. You're banished so what I and then you realize that when Watcher is going through Iris's memories is Principal like specifically creating these sequences to get Watcher to be. 01:23:44.76 Dave Yeah. 01:23:44.91 Michael Angry at the allmother and wanting to kill her rather than Principal pulling up and killing herself so she uses Watcher as a proxy to kill the allmother and that was all motivated through what Watchers saw in those communions. 01:23:52.44 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:24:01.36 Dave Yep, so the inciting event that I write before we put a pin in story talk that I mentioned is Iris's friend and heavily implied lover fixer. Gets chosen to go on the train and go meet the allmother and then so like that person is effectively gone people don't come back like they're in the lore of the religion they spend the rest of their days fighting alongside the allmother. You have no expectation of ever seeing them again. But then in that first communion fixer shows up in the communion. That's not supposed to be possible and basically tells the truth like the all mother's not who she thinks she's working with the aliens like this is all this is all a lie basically and then she disappears and ah. Watcher tells her the truth. She reminded me a lot of to be really early in the game from near automata like that real like dogged loyalty to ah your handlers you know whatever your or the authorities like. 01:25:02.48 Michael Um, yeah. 01:25:13.50 Dave Dedication to the mission and like the mission to a T. Basically so she turns her in but that was not actually fix her in the communion that was Principal in disguise so that was another thing that I wanted to bounce off you but you already answered it is so this whole thing is eventually at some point. Principal got tired of this whole thing and then set up a way to get rid of the all-mother and take power for herself. 01:25:39.62 Michael Yeah, ah ah and the way you get to that point or not get to that point the way you start to navigate the aftermath of that point is so this shit is crazy dog like because that's when the game starts to kick. 01:25:48.39 Dave Yeah. 01:25:57.24 Dave To Blue. Yeah yeah. 01:25:57.26 Michael Ah, so that's when it switches the perspective to Blue and then it becomes a political uprising like very a lot more. Um, like that's it's at the forefront that becomes what the story is so um and then it kind of starts to take. A whole nother life in and of itself and now this game is about something completely different but the work that you put in to get to that point makes everything so impactful and so Meaningful. So like when you have like you have this full understanding of who the clones and the shells are. 01:26:27.46 Dave Yes. 01:26:35.18 Michael Have this understanding of a structural society of these customs and these sayings and then once you once you get to when Principal takes control. You slowly see how this turns into a dictatorship and like a wiping of the all-mothers ah like the cultural traditions like. 01:26:45.48 Dave Man. 01:26:54.63 Dave Yeah. 01:26:54.92 Michael People don't say hekki allmo anymore people don't say heck grace anymore people don't refer to the old ways anymore and they're like oh that is in the past we don't do that anymore and it becomes like this militaristic structure this this martial law that exists now in the orchard and so when you start to when you play as Blue and then go back to the Orchard. 01:27:07.52 Dave Yeah. 01:27:14.47 Michael After Principal has fully taken control. It is like this whiplash that you're like what the fuck happened like this whole entire place is completely different. There's security checkpoints. There's. 01:27:18.24 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:27:30.10 Michael Sisters with like armed armed sisters at these checkpoints and there's like just this all of these things that have been completely rewritten ah to in the in the image of Principal or yeah, it's and what Principal wants. Yeah, it's. 01:27:43.41 Dave Yeah. 01:27:48.30 Michael It is. It is a wild change in direction. 01:27:49.99 Dave Yeah, it. It felt to me like this is like a real world analog to, let's just say Hong Kong and China as China's power grows within it. And this place that was once familiar still looks the same but it's not the same place anymore. Nothing really functions the same and that erasing of the past is a thing that the rest of the game grapples with is like how you handle. Those things in the past and so there is this faction that wants to erase all mention of the all-mother and that's something common I think with dictators right? like the new dictator wants to remove all mention of the previous people so you have that going on. 01:28:47.34 Dave Then you have like these other little groups that are like we're the traditional lists like we want to remember the all-mother like these little other groups and those become stronger as Principals society weakens as you go. And I thought that was really interesting too. Then you have the introduction of the Jiao clones for the first time but the Jiao clones are operating on this incorrect information because the only information they have is Jiao's diary the original Jiao’s diary. 01:29:07.80 Michael Um, yeah. 01:29:23.52 Dave Ah, where she idolizes Iris and so the clones think that they should idolize the Iris Clones and so you set up this like this class structure within the orchard of like this subservient group but they think that's the way things should be because that's how. 01:29:42.56 Dave The original gel was even though she wasn't um so this like new society that's built in the orchard is super interesting to me. Um, just like the amount of perspectives going on in there when before the old Orchard was like all hekki Allmo. 01:29:44.31 Michael Um, yeah. 01:30:02.16 Dave Right? It's super cool. 01:30:02.86 Michael Yeah, yeah, is yeah, it's it's it's it's yeah it really puts into perspective like the cultural shift that happens when there is a new power in place. Um. 01:30:12.65 Dave Um, yeah. 01:30:16.93 Michael Yeah, it's so it's so so it's so well done. Oh my god yeah and just like tying that theme into like the past and memories and like you do that for the first half of the game on like an intimate level then you start to do that on like a grand political level. Um. And fuck when when as Blue starts to get radicalized There's so many. There's so many great moments in the undercity before Blue gets ah like it gets more or less like promoted into the orchard like she can go there now. You have to again. This is what these are like. 01:30:54.15 Michael It's like a tiered caste society and you're always wanting to ascend to the next level and like that means leaving people behind that means siding with your oppressors in a way and there's so many moments where like when you're playing is Blue. 01:31:12.72 Michael You're like scheming to get up there and when she meets with her friend Chris there's so many great one-liners about that really put into perspective people who are involved in political revolutions. What they think and feel in their thought process determines how they get to that point. 01:31:31.78 Michael There's so many great lines that really encapsulate that theme and this is why I emphasize this in my review is that this game is so good about making you understand that political revolutions are felt on a deeply personal level. 01:31:49.37 Dave Um. 01:31:51.15 Michael And that's what motivates people to put their life on the line for something that they believe in for a cause like people obviously like people who want a better life. They want to take action to change things. But what puts what gets you onto the streets. What Puts. You went to harm's way, what puts you into being willing , like willingly being able to do that, comes from a very deeply personal level and then so yeah, that's I just I love that whole switch to switch to Blue when you're in the undercity. 01:32:15.77 Dave Um, yeah. 01:32:27.77 Michael Because there's so much good. There's so many good set pieces there that are established there, especially how we even talk about bartender Bart bartenders of just straight up one of the best characters in this game where she's kind of like she's like this ah I would say double agent. 01:32:31.65 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:32:38.12 Dave Yeah, she's great. 01:32:45.70 Michael But she's like 1 of the ones who likes moves between the different societies and kind of keeps it low-key security kind of knows that she's up to something but is able to play it off in a way and then is like an integral part to the revolution and yeah, that's 01:32:59.43 Dave Yeah. 01:33:04.20 Michael And such ah also like a really key character who has like this really distinct personality. Um, and when yeah. 01:33:08.57 Dave Yeah, she seems like she kind of exists like in the first half of the game in like the all-mother society She feels like she kind of exists outside of that. She's just kind of there taking it all in and then you learn what's been going like. 01:33:25.43 Michael Um. 01:33:28.18 Dave Her role this whole time. She's been going back and forth between these two societies. Basically so maybe the reason she doesn't get super involved in the things on the top is because she knows and sympathizes with how things are on the bottom and it's her. Um. 01:33:41.84 Michael Yeah. 01:33:45.93 Dave Her killing is like a targeted killing that radicalizes Blue where she's just kind of like like of all the people bartender she's the one that has to go So that's what gets Blue into it really heavy and like actually gets Blue to start. 01:33:49.31 Michael Depth. 01:34:03.56 Dave Doing all these reckless things that contributed to the downfall of Principals New Society Super cool there's a ah note and like just 1 quick thing about Principal that I thought was really good like characterization. So. 01:34:10.42 Michael Yeah. 01:34:22.56 Dave She's shown like this with a strong fisted. You know, no bullshit military leader. She's commanding this. You know this? Oh what's the word I don't know this military force of these red sisters in this section She finally has like this power that she. 01:34:36.57 Michael Um, is it? 01:34:41.94 Dave She grew to want and she rules over this place like you know with an iron fist and ah keeps everybody down basically and then there's this part where they have a play where they reenact the all-mothers killing um and they do it every year and ah. The sisters all feel weird about like especially the actors feel weird about the parts they play in there like the person who plays Watchers like I don't really want to like I'll do my best but everyone hates this role so um, during that part when the allmother is dying in the play. 01:35:07.10 Michael Um, yeah. 01:35:20.40 Dave Principal gets up on stage and like she plays herself because Principal was there in the events but she goes off script and makes the actor for Iris apologize to her personally and say yeah she says like. 01:35:24.63 Michael Yeah. 01:35:33.69 Michael Yeah, all it's so fucking. Weird. 01:35:39.36 Dave Say that I should have accepted the gift and say that you forgive me and like makes the actors say this and I was like fuck. She's still carrying this like yeah. 01:35:44.71 Michael Um, ah yeah, yeah, she's yeah, it's deranged. It is like some serious trauma that is not even trauma just like this fixation that she will never let go. 01:35:57.70 Dave Yeah now. 01:36:01.82 Michael And uses this play as a way to like oh man. Yeah, that is that is such a dictator move to but that that whole play scene also is the moment when Blue is that's a fucking suicide bombing that is. 01:36:14.46 Dave Yeah, it is. 01:36:19.12 Michael That scene is of an insane man. That's like we're going to put you in the shoes of someone who's going to do a suicide bombing and that that is wild. Um, and so the bomb is planted in one of the cakes that are right is there's ah that's yeah, yeah, all. 01:36:32.13 Dave Yeah, it's in the it's in the fruit cake and it's it's the same fruit cake model that's been used in every single clone birthday party for Iris and it's the same fruit cake that her parents bought her when she was again the real world like all of these you know like you said fixations. Ah. 01:36:37.56 Michael 7 fuck man. 01:36:49.78 Dave It's wild like how that detail and you're like ah and every time that someone mentions a cake or something you're like it's gonna be that fucking fruit cake again isn't it and it is because that's so that's what they have? yeah. 01:36:55.75 Michael Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's all they know because like this entire again like this entire society is built off of Iris's image and in her memories. So everything that she experienced in her life are the only things that really exist in this society. Um. 01:37:06.42 Dave Um, yeah. 01:37:10.74 Dave Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:37:14.84 Michael So another thing I Want to say about that scene when we talk about Cinematography dog when as each piece of that play is going out and it switches back to Blue's hand with her thumb on the detonator and it says do you like it asks the game asks you pull the trigger wait pull the trigger and wait. 01:37:25.65 Dave Yeah. 01:37:31.55 Dave And that's during the scene when Principals like feeding the actor lines. It's like you could miss that if you press the trigger early I think me too I was like am I going to miss my chance. 01:37:34.68 Michael Um, do it? yeah. 01:37:43.00 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah and I wait until the very end. Um, yeah, yeah, um, and just that scene where she pulls the trigger it blows up and of course like Blue survives as you continue to play her. Um, and then you're lying next to the dead joo clone and it is like just a shocking event that is like oh shit political revolutions are messy and they are violent and they show you that firsthand right there and then it starts to kick Into. Um. 01:38:08.12 Dave Yeah. 01:38:18.44 Michael Ah, like ah starts to like kicks off the next wave of events in the game. Ah, it sucks. Yeah, that's crazy. 01:38:23.52 Dave Yeah, also like while this is happening Watcher is in prison. Um, in this new society. We forgot to mention another dictatorial move right. 01:38:37.74 Dave They have a body hanging up that they say is Watcher's body. You know, like as an example for everybody else. Um, but it's not actually her Watcher was in prison this whole time for a long time just you know in there. There's a guard in there. Um. 01:38:40.92 Michael Yeah. 01:38:56.28 Dave Talk about that guard a little bit later watch her names her mauve because she doesn't have a color I don't think no, she doesn't she's gray um Watchers in there. 1 of my favorite characters in the game is no for the way that noer plays both sides. 01:39:02.92 Michael Yeah. 01:39:14.10 Dave Ultimately to advance good but she's the one who cuts Watchers eyes out. She's the one who's torturing her when she's in prison because she knows that That's what she has to do in that moment. I Love the way that no one plays both sides throughout this like you know we've caught up to that scene. 01:39:19.15 Michael Yeah. 01:39:33.68 Dave Now we're in like the after society and I love nowhere in this part like so much like the way that she just kind of jumps from place to place side to side. But ultimately like you have a feeling she's working for the right side and that's actually. 01:39:37.68 Michael Um, yeah. 01:39:50.87 Dave That is what's going on. 01:39:52.81 Michael Yeah, yeah, you ah this is really interesting too because this is when fixer Bbf and Healer come back into this into the picture where like the old sisters did not die. They went into hiding in planning a revolution as well. 01:40:00.56 Dave Yeah, yeah. 01:40:10.63 Michael Um, and then the the point being that Blue fucked it all up because Blue took too radical of an action too early and then fucked everything up and that is like in revolutionary politics like that is that's just like something that is like studied when like when insurgent groups. 01:40:13.89 Dave Yeah. 01:40:27.51 Michael Like take action into their own hands and then kind of fumble. What another insurgent group or another like organization was trying to do even though they had the same goals. So that's there no's playing both sides and you're seeing this through you're communing with Watcher. 01:40:44.20 Michael And so you're seeing the events as you're communing with Watcher in that train so you see her tied up. Um and eventually gradually Noer's like hey trust me I know what I'm doing I have to play this part but we're going to get you out of here. We're going to like we're going to solve this thing and then slowly slowly. 01:40:59.11 Dave Yeah. 01:41:03.62 Michael No's like actually you know what? um I'm going to need to do this. We can't do that and you gradually see Noah having to play the part of the new Principal's new government and you see it on her body too when she starts to change uniform and Watchers like. 01:41:12.85 Dave Yeah. 01:41:20.78 Michael Hey what's what's going on? What's what's up with your uniform? She's like hey listen this is just what we have to do and that starts to come into question like Noah's allegiance um and so when you see her bat ah jumping back and forth being a double agent like that that's that I was on the edge of my seat and when I talked about the story's momentum I was like. 01:41:26.56 Dave Yeah. 01:41:38.96 Dave Yeah. 01:41:39.18 Michael I need to see the next scene with no what you are going to do next and then eventually it gets to the point where both of Watcher's eyes are plucked out and you can't see anything. Obviously it's all black, but then that's when you see Healer like the rest of the sisters come in and they have that conversation where Noah's like hey, it's about time you got here. We were doing and that they' were like ah we're're we're getting watch you out of here like why? The why did you do this tour and then no, we're just like a listen. It's just what I had to do and then you knows like all right I wouldn't need you to hit me to make sure it looks like that I was assaulted in the process. So I could stay looking like I'm on their side. 01:42:07.00 Dave Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. 01:42:18.60 Michael And it's just like this really ah funny conversation in this very serious moment but like that whole sequence of being in prison as Watcher is some of the some of the best like groundwork laying for its political themes. So um. 01:42:19.93 Dave This is. 01:42:30.73 Dave Yeah, and like that perspective that they give you as all this stuff is playing out but Watchers just in this room like the only information you get is what you overhear when people are in the room with you Basically so. 01:42:47.22 Michael Um, yeah. 01:42:47.94 Dave That was really cool. Um, they all join up together on the train that goes between the orchard and the the place where Iris used to live and fixers reunited with Watcher on the train and. Fixer like in a kind of surprise does not forgive Watcher like and Watcher dies and even after that fixer is just like okay, we're moving on like ah, kind of surprising to me. Yeah, yeah, really surprising. 01:43:15.52 Michael I Can't carry you in a backpack The fuck. 01:43:23.90 Dave To me. But I mean I guess it would make sense like watching her thought she was turning in to fix her and the fixer never forgives her for this. It feels like a very real thing to me that not every action is forgivable. 01:43:39.50 Michael It absolutely is. Yeah yeah, oh and absolutely up that is some real shit even though like the relationship between watch and fixer. Ah, it's shown explicitly in certain memories or like certain things that in the early on in the game. 01:43:44.56 Dave Yep. 01:43:56.14 Michael But you never got the full picture of their relationship but it is 1 of the most powerful relationships in this game because again like many other things in this game. There's a lot that just doesn't need to be said. They just show you and you piece it together and fixer standing next to Watcher's body as it's being burned. 01:43:59.46 Dave Yeah. 01:44:14.91 Michael And then just moving on is like you just burn incinerated the main character for half this game and like and now we're moving on is crazy like and then like that says so much about how fixer felt about their entire. 01:44:22.65 Dave Um, yeah. 01:44:31.80 Michael Relationship this whole time. 01:44:32.65 Dave Yeah, and they had a relationship like they loved each other. It was not just a friendly relationship. Um, and I think in Fixer's eyes watch her through that all away when she made that decision even though it was um. 01:44:37.93 Michael Um, and this. 01:44:48.43 Dave Even though it was her duty and it was a mistake like she was tricked into it. She still doesn't forgive her for it. But like you said it still feels ah still feels real. So um, let's fast forward a bit because we're running up on time here and we got to talk about the way this ends and. 01:44:52.34 Michael Um, yeah. 01:45:05.70 Michael Oh God yeah. 01:45:08.23 Dave What the game's trying to say at the ending. So basically the plan for the revolution is the little robot drone things that help with the communions. Those are actually um I figure what they call them. They're a little yeah the secretaries I figure what they call them. 01:45:22.22 Michael Um, secretaries. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. 01:45:27.23 Dave Like their role as their machines from the occupants basically and they had the original communion technology Iris learned how to do it herself and then communed with the original sisters to share her memories with them. That's where this tech comes from the plan. 01:45:42.10 Michael Um, yeah. 01:45:47.19 Dave Is to get all of these secretaries together and do a mass communion to share all the memories with all the sisters put everyone on the same page with all the same knowledge basically and that will help the uprising to overthrow Principal And. Move what happens though during that final communion you talk with Secretary and Secretary gives you a choice of basically who to include in this new world which is that's how I read this. 01:46:20.13 Michael Oh yeah, yeah. 01:46:25.70 Dave Um, real quick I thought it was very cool that the occupants are there because they're attracted to memory formation and that they were going to even protect the earth from the eventual burnout of the sun to just keep feasting on these memories and there's a really fucked up scene later where. Ah, bunch of people die the soldiers die and one of them says to the other. We can't tell them because all of the emotions surrounding a bunch of people dying will draw the aliens here. So Everyone stay cool and we can't tell them not because we want to hide information. 01:46:55.71 Michael Yeah. 01:47:03.69 Dave For any other reason it's literally like if people cry and people get upset. The aliens will find us which is really fucked up suppressing that. So during this final communion you get to choose basically. 01:47:09.19 Michael Yeah Jesus Christ yeah 01:47:20.60 Dave Who are you going to include in this new world when the Principals ' government is overthrown and you go around to all of these characters and groups of characters and talk to them and they kind of talk to you about their ideology a little bit and how they want the new world to be. Shaped what they want the new world to be like so just ask you first. What did you do here? Who did you take with you? yeah. 01:47:48.36 Michael Oh I yeah I know what I did so ah I I turned the lights off on 3 characters on Principal on mauve and on the red guards. 01:47:53.50 Dave Okay. Okay. 01:48:01.35 Michael So anyone who is directly responsible for a dictatorship. Ah so I got rid of them and I think that gave me the best ending possible? Yes, Okay, so yeah. 01:48:05.72 Dave Um, yeah. 01:48:10.86 Dave It does? Yeah, okay, so we'll go back to that because I did that my third time as I was playing around with this. The first time I left all the lights on because i. Really got a message from the game that you need to basically keep all the memories , even if it's violent and suppressive and all of that will help you build a better society going forward having that knowledge. Um. There's a quote from nowhere that it's like 1 of the more common screenshots I see out there where it's in that big kind of dark red purplish plane and nowhere says you must learn to live with the mistakes that you've made. 01:49:05.50 Dave Everything stays, everything should stay and you learn from that. What happens if you do that is as soon as you wake up from the jump through the glass ceiling. It does the communion As soon as you wake up from that move and kills you immediately so wrong choice and I think. 01:49:19.60 Michael Yeah, yeah. 01:49:24.93 Dave What the game is trying to say there. What the story is trying to say is that you said that the actor is in the dictatorship and whether you want to make real world analogues or not. It's kind of I mean the red color I don't think is an accident there. Um. 01:49:39.51 Michael Um, yeah. 01:49:43.36 Dave You’re saying that that needs to be removed and that we can't have that in our future society. So the next time I tried it by removing mauve and the red soldiers. But I left the Principal because of that. 01:50:00.36 Dave Somewhat sympathetic turn the sympathetic backstory of Principal not necessarily the things that Principal does in that timeline. What happens there is actually exactly the same as the ending that you talked about; the only difference is in the ending you talked about. 01:50:15.18 Michael Um, yeah. 01:50:19.77 Dave You go back to the orchard you play as a gel clone way in the future and Blue is there and Blue kind of guides you around the orchard and tells you to go to the gravestones and read the epitaphs about the sisters and the prominent characters. In the ending I just talked about it's Principal. That's there not Blue, but it's the exact same.. There's no hostility. But there's a difference. The difference between the 2 is what's written about all the characters and it just shows you that? ah. 01:50:37.34 Michael Um, yeah, oh there's all. Yes. Yes. 01:50:55.36 Dave History is written by the survivors or the winners. However, you want to put it. 01:50:58.81 Michael Yeah, oh my God that was because I kept poking and prodding at how to get different endings at this point and then so yeah I got the one with Blue at the orchard remembering all the sisters and you read the epitaphs and like. 01:51:03.10 Dave Yeah, me too. 01:51:18.70 Michael Written in a way that is kind of sentimental and kind of respectful of those the lives that they lived and you'll notice that bartender is included in the gravestones. 01:51:31.39 Dave Yes, yes. 01:51:36.23 Michael When you do it as when Principal you keep Principal alive and Principal's body is wild. She starts to turn into like this Alien figure. Um, and I assume that's like her trying to preserve herself. Um and then the Principal tells you to do the same like go visit the gravestones and come back to me. 01:51:41.34 Dave Yeah. 01:51:50.33 Dave Yeah, Principal looks like a final boss in a final fantasy game. 01:51:54.80 Michael Um, yeah, yeah, it's wild. Um, and then everything written on those epitaphs are so petty and resentful and bartender is not included. 01:52:03.46 Dave Yeah. 01:52:11.20 Michael Yeah, and then they ask you to go behind the waterfall and like see the gray of the original gravestone of the original sisters and like that's slightly different too. Um, but the eventual like the final cut scene I think is the same. Yeah. 01:52:22.41 Dave Yeah, it is the final cut scenes the same it is Blue emerging on the surface because the plan lets the orchard go up to the surface she takes off her mask and like takes a breath of the surface air. Ah, because the aliens are gone. The occupants are gone so the disease is also gone too. Um, and you can feel the relief when she takes off her mask. You're like yeah fresh air. Let's go and then go to the beach. It shows Iris walking out onto the beach. Ah, call waved over by the original sisters on the beach and to me this was um, we've had this mass communion. Iris's memories are now shared with everybody. So. It's a figurative homecoming for Iris after all this you know Thousand years plus 01:53:11.23 Michael Yeah, yeah. 01:53:16.50 Dave Ah, she lives on in the memory of the survivors and she gets to go back home. 01:53:24.23 Dave Yeah, it's so good. 01:53:24.27 Michael Man this game dog like it's crazy. Um, yeah that that that ending like and the whole ending there's and another thing too when you are at the orchard reading the epitaphs for the sisters that you knew. 01:53:34.51 Dave Yeah. 01:53:40.42 Michael For Fixer Healer BBF and and nowhere that you knew when you there's echoes of like there's there's like figures in their color that have like a trace ah like they're tracing. There's their memory or footsteps. 01:53:54.80 Dave Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:53:57.81 Michael And when you actually look at them. It's pretty wild, like the one with Watcher and a fixer. You could see them so at their starting points and then if you chase those shadows down eventually gets to a point where they're like hanging out with each other. 01:54:10.62 Dave Um, yeah. 01:54:14.70 Michael And then another one with a Bbf and Healer I think you see Bbf like jumping from the top top of the stairs to go go be with Healer and I think Noah is like at the top of like the orchard just overlooking this and it like it says so much about who they were or these final echoes you're seeing are like. 01:54:25.63 Dave Yeah. 01:54:34.10 Michael This is what their life was when they lived here. It's yeah yeah, silhouettes does. That's a better word. Um, so yeah, that ah that was really powerful to me. 01:54:34.87 Dave Yeah, just distilled down into like these 4 little silhouettes. You know? Yeah, yeah, it's super cool. Yeah, ah it is a really powerful game. And in this conversation here. There's a bunch of stuff that we didn't have time to touch on it is ah it not It's it's all good like this is the type of game that you could spread out into like a series of discussions and like all right today we're going to talk about like. 01:54:56.75 Michael That's my bad. 01:55:09.20 Dave You could do it. I know geeks and grounds with Jenny Wyndham is doing this like episode by episode talking about this, you know, maybe not 1 chapter at a time but definitely doing that book club style this game definitely supports that level of conversation. But um. 01:55:13.67 Michael Um, ah, nice 01:55:26.56 Dave Man I'm really happy with this discussion that we've had about this. This has been awesome and I thank you so much for taking this time. Yeah to get it out. Yeah. 01:55:32.86 Michael Of course yeah this it feels like a pretty big relief to like talk to somebody about it at this level too I don't think I've had ah like back and forth on Discord with people who've played the game but like I haven't sat down with somebody for 2 hours to talk about it and this is like kind of how I how I imagined it would turn out. 01:55:43.95 Dave Um, yeah, yeah. 01:55:50.47 Michael It's like jumping between all these different themes and still having so much more left to say. But yeah, this ah it felt good to get it out of my system because I've been thinking about it . I have not stopped thinking about this game from the minute I started it. 01:56:04.54 Dave Yeah, and I mean just because the conversation is winding down here doesn't mean I'm done thinking about it either. So let's ah, let's have people if you're still listening continue the conversation in the Discord server one more time I'd love to have you come in. 01:56:11.74 Michael Um, if. 01:56:19.45 Dave We've given our interpretation of things that happen. But if you have a different idea or if you want to just join the conversation that's going to be the best place to do it and a 1 more call at the end of the episode to check down in the show notes find that link for everything that Michael's doing check him out on social media. Good follow, good reading everything that he writes that I've seen. 01:56:38.36 Michael Oh thanks man. Hell yeah, thank you so much man, Really really do appreciate it. 01:56:38.63 Dave Is worth your time. So Michael again. Thanks so much for coming on and this has been great. Yeah, awesome. So that is all, thank you everybody for listening as always I appreciate you very much and as always tune in next week for the next game. To come out of the backlog.